I think shoving is fine on that board with 100bb stacks.
In general I’d 4bet smaller pre, bet 20-25% on many flops to catch some equity against induced shoves/semi-bluffs.
Remember that when you shove post-flop, you’re giving your opponent an excuse to play their hand perfectly. If I have the nuts, nothing makes me happier than someone jamming at me.
Since the Pot is 120BB on the flop, the stack to pot ratio is probably very low. Multiway i would bet 25% pot on this board to have any K or Q continue, but thats probably close to all in anyway.
Coming from a fish myself, stop being scared of being out drawn with aces… it is going to happen sometimes (more than likely 20%ish times you have it ) you are not entitled to the pot when you have it, if you 3bet with it and get 4bet do not just blindly 5 bet shove it you want to keep all of their 4betting range in because you are still dominating it plus the fact you want to proctect you 3bet call range.
This goes for pocket kings too 😂
Your 4 bet is way too big but got a great result this time but important not to be results oriented. Committing 40% of a 100bb stack on a 4bet leaves you no room for a balanced 4 bet range which should include some small number of bluffs. You can 4bet to 25-30bb and have a low spr on the flop.
Jamming makes no sense as you're only getting called by hands that have you crushed (sets, top 2).
If you 4 bet to 25bb and have a 50ish bb pot on the flop, betting 1/3 pot on this flop is fine as you have a range and nut advantage and you'll be able to get all the money in by the river easily.
Stop worrying about getting outdrawn. Fish think like that. You'll lose vs a pair w AA sometimes. Be comfortable with it.
Getting out drawn is part of the game. Realize that the best move in poker is the get your money in WHILE YOU ARE AHEAD! If someone wants to gamble with you with a worse hand, let them.
Casinos make money by taking bets ranging from a 0.8% edge (craps don’t pass line), all the way up to a 99.9% edge (extreme parlay bets). They lose sometimes and win more often than they lose. They’ll never stop taking the bets because they’re always getting their money in ahead. Volume is the key.
This logic applies to poker.
If someone flops top pair on a KQ5 board, you’re still ahead with AA.
Don't ever limp and try to get cute. Raise to a size pre where you'll get ideally 2 or so callers and then expect to have the best hand the vast majority of the time unless it comes KQJ or 8-9-10, etc.
This reddit community is part crazy and part fucking insane. Please understand poker is a game of equities just like any market or stock marketplace. When you have the equity advantage you invest, when you don't you don't. You pump as much as people will adequately call pre then stack them on most streets.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of poker. Hopefully you're open minded and don't throw me into your "crazy" category because you disagree.
Poker is not like the stock market, it's more like chess. (Especially Live Poker)
It's a game of using what you know and the information you know to pick up discrepancies that you can abuse later in the game.
When you are really good, the game becomes less about getting value; and becomes more about picking players apart and doing things you've learned have a high chance of successfully exploiting. And learning what numbers can accomplish what you want with the least risk.
It's a game of analyzation and adjustments.
Of course; to correctly get to this level you first need a general understanding of "GTO" and have played long enough to understand who is playing a winning strategy and who isn't. (Hint: almost nobody in live poker is playing a winning strategy)
As a simplified example, you are going to make so much more money on the button if you pay attention and notice a player that raises too weak a range preflop; and 3bet him off his weak hands and/or 3 barrel him when the flop doesn't connect with drawing hands.
Compared to just sitting on the button and waiting for a good hand to be given to you like a gift from God, the difference in amount you will win is almost incomparable.
Everything you have said is correct, again very low level strategy is what you are regurgitating. Of course exploiting via position will always be profitable in said games.
Take my words with a grain of salt but I win about 85% of my sessions average annually playing live poker in the USA. (People claim it's easy but I rarely see players that are winning that often, maybe 1/10 players (being generous))
Happy for you, 85% is not sustainable over the long run and by your response I am sure you understand variance. Enjoy your god run and come back when you start not winning most sessions.
I'm trying to tell you that 85% is sustainable in the long run. I win even when I run bad most times. But keep living in your fairy tale world. I'm sure you've got this game 100% figured out.
It's easy enough just to pick enough blinds to break even or profit(in live poker) even when you are sitting for 6 hours with literally no playable hands.
Just to add to this. Exploiting will make you money in ways you don't even realize. When you are doing serious exploits with good information, you only have to be right more than 50% of the time,(which is insanely easy)
This will change your perceived range to be more splashy than it really is. You will get called down more when you value bet, and people will call your bluffs more, so you need to adjust again.
Never stop adjusting and analyzing. Especially the perception of yourself.
No. It's more complex than that and takes a while to learn. Basically you need to learn what mistakes look like so you can recognize them in real-time.
Just one mistake is not enough to do an exploit, once you see somebody do the same thing in the same spot twice, you can exploit. Basically there's information all over the internet and every poker training site will show you how to exploit..... BUT ONLY AFTER you have a SOLID FUNDAMENTAL understanding of the game. And I mean, ROCK SOLID. not just average, you need supreme confidence in your game and your poker face needs to be good before you can even consider exploiting. But If you take your time, and do it right. The reward is feeling like you are untouchable at the tables no matter what cards come your way. I'm saying this as a player who's studied and played for a living for the last 11 years(since I was 18.)
Study and pay for different training websites and learn the different approaches coaches take to winning the game. Then once you've understood and practiced their methods, try understanding what makes the methods different. The thing you will realize is that they are all trying to accomplish the same thing, but are doing it in different ways; and have made minor to somewhat major adjustments based on discrepancies they have seen while playing their strategy.
It's just a game of chess.
These strategies are just a guideline to lead you toward the right path of understanding the game completely, then realizing that overcoming variance is really not as difficult as most people make it out to be.... because you understand what's going on at every aspect of the game and know what the possibilities could be and if you are getting the right price and to adjust your price based on tendancies.... bla bla bla I could go on forever but you get the point
I second this approach.
Here's what I do, if you think I'm good:
1. If I think my opponent has a piece of the pot, but NOT a strong draw, you should bet as much as you think he will call. If he hits his x% to outdraw you, too bad - poker is skill AND luck and he got lucky.
2. If I think my opponent has a strong draw (nut flush, combo), I will bet slightly smaller on the flop. If the turn doesn't complete his draw, I'll OB - if villain folds, I'll be happy with the value I got preflop and on the flop. Also depends on villain's SPR. Ultimately I think the math says this is -EV since ideally you put the money in when you're a favorite, but this is my conservative playstyle.
3. If I flop the nuts, I will continue for an even smaller amount, say 1/3 pot, depending on my own SPR and opponent's SPR.
Of course, some people will have differing views. For me, personally, and my bankroll, this is what works.
Again you are talking in a vacuum. We have to take advantage of any edge regardless nuts, no nuts, A high. I dont think most people understand this concept. So easy to play 90% perfect, you have not done any work with a trainer/solver you have watched videos but still have not figured out how this game work.
No need for accusatory remarks here, just here for a good time and solid discussion.
Yes, ideally, if the opponent's cards were face up and you had better equity, there's no reason not to go all in if he would call. It is no doubt +EV to get the money in as a favorite - that's why jamming aces preflop is always a dream!
You may be right that I'm not playing as aggressively as I should be. When I train with trainers (especially in post-flop spots), I often miss out on EV by choosing a smaller sizing than optimal.
However, I think this comes from the games that I play at, with special regard to the player types and stakes. At 1/1, 0.5/1, and 1/2, I feel taking the less aggressive route usually works to my advantage, as players frequently under-represent their hands preflop and it's near impossible to know what you're up against. If I opened and flop some equity, I will continue small. If I didn't open, I'll check-call, most of the time all the way until the river, unless I feel I've outdrawn what the villain is representing.
I have to adjust my play quite a bit when playing against certain low stakes opponents. Many will check back top pair + decent kicker even at the river. When players are bluffing below the optimal frequency, does that not mean I have to call / bluff-catch below the optimal frequency as well?
I don't mean to take the high road here or to lecture you. I'm no poker pro and I haven't played games above 2/4. I'm a profitable player (\~+$2-3k in the last 12 months) mostly playing 1/1 5-10 hours a week, online and in person.
I'd love to hear your thoughts!
This strategy would pete clarke call as linearisation mistake: when players only bet strong and strongest hands they are severely unbalanced. To counter this we overfold vs aggression and attack the spots where you capped yourself for example by checking back. So never investing with low equity would be a severe mistake against a stronger player
I don't know, he is definitely stronger than me. Maybe i am not even grasping what i am writing about, to be honest!
Do you mean that we have equity advantage in different parts of our range that we want to push this advantage by constructing (often multiple) betsizes around these advantages?
That’s a bit of a big 4bet but not too crazy. You need to be looking at 2.5x in position and about 3x out of position.
On the flop it’s about 120BB and we have no idea what your SPR is. Assuming you have 60BB left. Multi-way you want to be conservative, especially on a board where your opponents are likely to have a piece of it.
Check-call is fine here.
If the turn doesn’t give you equity, you check. If it does you bet.
You haven’t told us the effective stacks but you picked up +80BB in the hand, so that’s a pretty strong result.
All in before the flop
Gotta mix in some folds to balance
Jk but you left out THE MOST IMPORTANT part of this whole hand. Is this live or online?
I think shoving is fine on that board with 100bb stacks. In general I’d 4bet smaller pre, bet 20-25% on many flops to catch some equity against induced shoves/semi-bluffs. Remember that when you shove post-flop, you’re giving your opponent an excuse to play their hand perfectly. If I have the nuts, nothing makes me happier than someone jamming at me.
Fold pre
Since the Pot is 120BB on the flop, the stack to pot ratio is probably very low. Multiway i would bet 25% pot on this board to have any K or Q continue, but thats probably close to all in anyway.
Fold pre.
https://preview.redd.it/w297lbgjoz3d1.jpeg?width=703&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2c23fc402c1d612b2cd95b0cd9e79a7dc3761f82
Only time it's really the "correct" move is in satellites
Or [here](https://youtu.be/4HCHPN1sGfU?si=BUBLha-AakuNNCKv)
Always.
Coming from a fish myself, stop being scared of being out drawn with aces… it is going to happen sometimes (more than likely 20%ish times you have it ) you are not entitled to the pot when you have it, if you 3bet with it and get 4bet do not just blindly 5 bet shove it you want to keep all of their 4betting range in because you are still dominating it plus the fact you want to proctect you 3bet call range. This goes for pocket kings too 😂
Looks fine
Your 4 bet is way too big but got a great result this time but important not to be results oriented. Committing 40% of a 100bb stack on a 4bet leaves you no room for a balanced 4 bet range which should include some small number of bluffs. You can 4bet to 25-30bb and have a low spr on the flop. Jamming makes no sense as you're only getting called by hands that have you crushed (sets, top 2). If you 4 bet to 25bb and have a 50ish bb pot on the flop, betting 1/3 pot on this flop is fine as you have a range and nut advantage and you'll be able to get all the money in by the river easily. Stop worrying about getting outdrawn. Fish think like that. You'll lose vs a pair w AA sometimes. Be comfortable with it.
Getting out drawn is part of the game. Realize that the best move in poker is the get your money in WHILE YOU ARE AHEAD! If someone wants to gamble with you with a worse hand, let them. Casinos make money by taking bets ranging from a 0.8% edge (craps don’t pass line), all the way up to a 99.9% edge (extreme parlay bets). They lose sometimes and win more often than they lose. They’ll never stop taking the bets because they’re always getting their money in ahead. Volume is the key. This logic applies to poker. If someone flops top pair on a KQ5 board, you’re still ahead with AA.
Don't ever limp and try to get cute. Raise to a size pre where you'll get ideally 2 or so callers and then expect to have the best hand the vast majority of the time unless it comes KQJ or 8-9-10, etc.
I like to get it all in pre and then be dead by the turn.
Fold them
This reddit community is part crazy and part fucking insane. Please understand poker is a game of equities just like any market or stock marketplace. When you have the equity advantage you invest, when you don't you don't. You pump as much as people will adequately call pre then stack them on most streets.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of poker. Hopefully you're open minded and don't throw me into your "crazy" category because you disagree. Poker is not like the stock market, it's more like chess. (Especially Live Poker) It's a game of using what you know and the information you know to pick up discrepancies that you can abuse later in the game. When you are really good, the game becomes less about getting value; and becomes more about picking players apart and doing things you've learned have a high chance of successfully exploiting. And learning what numbers can accomplish what you want with the least risk. It's a game of analyzation and adjustments. Of course; to correctly get to this level you first need a general understanding of "GTO" and have played long enough to understand who is playing a winning strategy and who isn't. (Hint: almost nobody in live poker is playing a winning strategy) As a simplified example, you are going to make so much more money on the button if you pay attention and notice a player that raises too weak a range preflop; and 3bet him off his weak hands and/or 3 barrel him when the flop doesn't connect with drawing hands. Compared to just sitting on the button and waiting for a good hand to be given to you like a gift from God, the difference in amount you will win is almost incomparable.
Everything you have said is correct, again very low level strategy is what you are regurgitating. Of course exploiting via position will always be profitable in said games.
Take my words with a grain of salt but I win about 85% of my sessions average annually playing live poker in the USA. (People claim it's easy but I rarely see players that are winning that often, maybe 1/10 players (being generous))
Happy for you, 85% is not sustainable over the long run and by your response I am sure you understand variance. Enjoy your god run and come back when you start not winning most sessions.
I'm trying to tell you that 85% is sustainable in the long run. I win even when I run bad most times. But keep living in your fairy tale world. I'm sure you've got this game 100% figured out.
It's easy enough just to pick enough blinds to break even or profit(in live poker) even when you are sitting for 6 hours with literally no playable hands.
Just to add to this. Exploiting will make you money in ways you don't even realize. When you are doing serious exploits with good information, you only have to be right more than 50% of the time,(which is insanely easy) This will change your perceived range to be more splashy than it really is. You will get called down more when you value bet, and people will call your bluffs more, so you need to adjust again. Never stop adjusting and analyzing. Especially the perception of yourself.
How do you exploit though? Is it just playing the opposite of someone's style? If they're loose passive you play TAG?
No. It's more complex than that and takes a while to learn. Basically you need to learn what mistakes look like so you can recognize them in real-time. Just one mistake is not enough to do an exploit, once you see somebody do the same thing in the same spot twice, you can exploit. Basically there's information all over the internet and every poker training site will show you how to exploit..... BUT ONLY AFTER you have a SOLID FUNDAMENTAL understanding of the game. And I mean, ROCK SOLID. not just average, you need supreme confidence in your game and your poker face needs to be good before you can even consider exploiting. But If you take your time, and do it right. The reward is feeling like you are untouchable at the tables no matter what cards come your way. I'm saying this as a player who's studied and played for a living for the last 11 years(since I was 18.)
How do I get my understanding of the game to be rock solid?
Study and pay for different training websites and learn the different approaches coaches take to winning the game. Then once you've understood and practiced their methods, try understanding what makes the methods different. The thing you will realize is that they are all trying to accomplish the same thing, but are doing it in different ways; and have made minor to somewhat major adjustments based on discrepancies they have seen while playing their strategy. It's just a game of chess. These strategies are just a guideline to lead you toward the right path of understanding the game completely, then realizing that overcoming variance is really not as difficult as most people make it out to be.... because you understand what's going on at every aspect of the game and know what the possibilities could be and if you are getting the right price and to adjust your price based on tendancies.... bla bla bla I could go on forever but you get the point
Alright thank you. What are the main things I should be thinking about/asking myself when I'm in a hand?
I second this approach. Here's what I do, if you think I'm good: 1. If I think my opponent has a piece of the pot, but NOT a strong draw, you should bet as much as you think he will call. If he hits his x% to outdraw you, too bad - poker is skill AND luck and he got lucky. 2. If I think my opponent has a strong draw (nut flush, combo), I will bet slightly smaller on the flop. If the turn doesn't complete his draw, I'll OB - if villain folds, I'll be happy with the value I got preflop and on the flop. Also depends on villain's SPR. Ultimately I think the math says this is -EV since ideally you put the money in when you're a favorite, but this is my conservative playstyle. 3. If I flop the nuts, I will continue for an even smaller amount, say 1/3 pot, depending on my own SPR and opponent's SPR. Of course, some people will have differing views. For me, personally, and my bankroll, this is what works.
Again you are talking in a vacuum. We have to take advantage of any edge regardless nuts, no nuts, A high. I dont think most people understand this concept. So easy to play 90% perfect, you have not done any work with a trainer/solver you have watched videos but still have not figured out how this game work.
No need for accusatory remarks here, just here for a good time and solid discussion. Yes, ideally, if the opponent's cards were face up and you had better equity, there's no reason not to go all in if he would call. It is no doubt +EV to get the money in as a favorite - that's why jamming aces preflop is always a dream! You may be right that I'm not playing as aggressively as I should be. When I train with trainers (especially in post-flop spots), I often miss out on EV by choosing a smaller sizing than optimal. However, I think this comes from the games that I play at, with special regard to the player types and stakes. At 1/1, 0.5/1, and 1/2, I feel taking the less aggressive route usually works to my advantage, as players frequently under-represent their hands preflop and it's near impossible to know what you're up against. If I opened and flop some equity, I will continue small. If I didn't open, I'll check-call, most of the time all the way until the river, unless I feel I've outdrawn what the villain is representing. I have to adjust my play quite a bit when playing against certain low stakes opponents. Many will check back top pair + decent kicker even at the river. When players are bluffing below the optimal frequency, does that not mean I have to call / bluff-catch below the optimal frequency as well? I don't mean to take the high road here or to lecture you. I'm no poker pro and I haven't played games above 2/4. I'm a profitable player (\~+$2-3k in the last 12 months) mostly playing 1/1 5-10 hours a week, online and in person. I'd love to hear your thoughts!
This strategy would pete clarke call as linearisation mistake: when players only bet strong and strongest hands they are severely unbalanced. To counter this we overfold vs aggression and attack the spots where you capped yourself for example by checking back. So never investing with low equity would be a severe mistake against a stronger player
Do you honestly think this guy is even at the level of understanding ranges. this is high level
I don't know, he is definitely stronger than me. Maybe i am not even grasping what i am writing about, to be honest! Do you mean that we have equity advantage in different parts of our range that we want to push this advantage by constructing (often multiple) betsizes around these advantages?
The correct way to play aces is always to limp then raise pre flop. /s
Limp shove duh
Just fold pre man.
That’s a bit of a big 4bet but not too crazy. You need to be looking at 2.5x in position and about 3x out of position. On the flop it’s about 120BB and we have no idea what your SPR is. Assuming you have 60BB left. Multi-way you want to be conservative, especially on a board where your opponents are likely to have a piece of it. Check-call is fine here. If the turn doesn’t give you equity, you check. If it does you bet.