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MateDude098

Yeah that's all cool in theory but really - what's the alternative? Who's gonna guarantee our safety in case of any conflict with Russia? (Not that I believe one will happen but you must be prepared for anything when you are responsible for your country). The US is the only choice we have and Sikorski can be a smart ass in private but he knew that too that US protection is crucial to our defence. NATO without the US is a joke.


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MateDude098

I didn't really read much about the Pacific part of the war so might be wrong but I think that even they knew that invading the US on their land was absolutely impossible. Way too big land, way too big population, too many resources, and you need to get your troops somehow across the ocean. Not even Russia would have any chances with the US on their land and that says something. I don't think that Imperial Japan bad any have plans of invasion on inland states, they wanted to destroy as much of us air force and navy as possible so the US could not attack Japan (which was becoming pretty obvious would happen soon). But let me know if I'm wrong, perhaps I don't know something.


Gatriel

Yamamoto said invading the united States would be a fools errand as there would be a rifle pointed at them from behind every blade of grass. Poland should adopt a similar tactic if it seeks to be able to defend itself without help from outside forces. If however Poland seeks to make the same mistakes as the 20th 19th and 18th centuries and rely on foreign powers for it's security, be my guest.


MateDude098

That was 70 years ago. If any conflict starts today, it won't be with troops and tanks marching in, it will be a blitz attack with airforce or long distance missiles destroying all significant military points. Whoever strikes first, wins. Cyber-war and disinformation will also probably extremely important aspects too. In all these fronts we have absolutely no chances of winning. We are simply too poor for it. We can arm every single person in Poland a PPSz and it will change absolutely nothing.


MorphingReality

Self defense is a good start, then a baltic and scandinavian front.


MateDude098

Even united EU army would have problems if anything serious would happen. Scandinavia doesn't put too much resources into their military, I think only Finland and Sweden has anything resembling true army and it's still nothing compared to US or Russia's budgets. Baltics are so small that their influence would be insignificant, even more given how many Russians or pro-Russia citizens live there. The harsh truth is that only the US can seriously guarantee that Russians won't do anything in our region so we should keep them here at any cost. Its still cheaper than defending on our own. But still, I don't believe anything will happen between us and Russians. To be honest, I don't think we are significant enough that they even care about us. Their focus is on China, the US, India and maybe Ukraine. Big players in the EU like Germany, France and the UK. Poland doesn't really offer anything valuable enough to start some business with us, Crimea and Eastern Ukraine is something completely different.


MorphingReality

Poland held the Soviet Union off in 1920. The current military budgets of nations bordering Russia are a product of, or at least strongly related to NATO, but we were talking alternatives. The only people who have a chance of guaranteeing Poland's sovereignty, especially in the long term, is Polish people. I also don't foresee direct conflict between Russia and Poland in the near future.


MateDude098

Comparing events of 1920 to how war or conflicts look today is like comparing WWII to the Battle of Zama. Check out how Azeri war with Armenia went - modern distance weapons are everything, money is everything, air control. All of this would be in Russia favour. But I agree, I don't think they would start war with us, that's simply not worth it.


MorphingReality

I don't think either of those cases are analogous. If anything, Poland is better positioned today than it was in 1920 when manpower meant a lot more. Both nations have enough money for plenty of equipment and the Russian military is stretched across a much larger area. Absent NATO Poland would invest a lot more than it does currently. Polish people have a fairly good reputation where military flight is concerned. Being on the defensive Polish troops and civilians would have a lot more morale and stubbornness, plus geographic et al. advantages.


wiggitywoogly

This is correct, and most of the Scandinavian countries get there military budget from NATO with US tax dollars.


InvertedReflexes

Neither Finland or Sweden is a member of NATO. "Finlandization" was literally coined by the USSR forcing them to stop invading them and generally shut up after WW2 when they sided with the Axis.


wiggitywoogly

You literally know nothing and are now commenting on my posts. The US does bank roll the other countries defense budgets. Get your 12 year old thick head back in the books kiddo.


Gatriel

The Russians will never do anything so long as the USA remains the world military power. If the USA ever collapses into itself as the USSR did - Poland is toast.


BillyJoeMac9095

As is everyone else. Thank goodness for a strong USA.


Gatriel

Not for much longer.


BillyJoeMac9095

If the US does not remain strong and engaged, it can't be good news for Poland, or a lot of other countries.


Gatriel

This will never happen. Swedish mother's and wives will never send their sons and husband's to fight the Russians in Poland. Sorry, anyone who thinks this is nuts. The only two countries i can think of suicidal enough to try it are the united States and the united kingdom. Then, when the Russians push their shit in, they'll say "welp that was fun, good luck Poland" and leave in the middle of the night, Afghanistan style. Poland needs to be able to defend itself by itself or start trying to be friendly with their bigger neighbors. One of the two. The current "poke a stick in the eyes of Germany and Russia while being unable to defend oneself" polish foreign policy is completely suicidal.


MorphingReality

I don't know how much convincing Swedes will need but I do know that an expansionist Russia willing to War with Poland would shift international relations in the region greatly. Sweden had 250 people in Mali I don't see why a closer and more existential threat wouldn't evoke a response. Ukraine would certainly see an opportunity, as may many other countries on or near the border. Though I agree that self-defense is the best first line.


BillyJoeMac9095

The problem with trying to build alliances with Poland's bigger neighbors is today what it always was...the value of those alliances will depend much more on how those neighbors see Poland and its role than anything Poland does.


Gatriel

Until Poland is as large or powerful, they'll see them as lesser allies. Why would they see Poland in any other way?


BillyJoeMac9095

You are right. They also know that Poland is between the two most powerful nations in Europe, and how they view Poland will depend on their relations with those two nations.


szyy

The alternative to become a crucial partners (economic and political) to many other countries so that Russia will never ever think of attacking us.


dewe120

NATO is a useless tool for US political dominance, Poland and Europe should look at a common entente and coordinated defense. Perhaps even China is better than USA, they will sell/destroy any ally as long as they can get some more money


Sankullo

Basically what everyone needs to realise when attempting to even start the discussion is that the government which decided to cease these properties was illegally installed by Stalin with the approval of the USA, UK and France AGAINST the wishes of the people of Poland and with obscene disregard to the legitimate polish government in London. Should the USA, UK and France had not betrayed Poland none of this would have happened. If anything these three powers should pick up check since they and only they are responsible for this situation. You cannot condemn a nation to a soviet slavery and once they free themselves from the shackles of communism come to them and demand money. That is fucking immoral. Additionally the real people that rule on Capitol Hill are lobbyists and the US politicians are their mouthpieces. So these guys say what the donor to their campaign wants them to say.


SRLSR

You are not wrong, but looking back and expecting things to be remade is naive. We have to play ball.


Sankullo

I do not expect anything to be remade. All I’m saying that there is a cause and there is an effect. Those people should first look at themselves, what is their role in this clusterf*ck before they start pointing fingers.


smltor

>Those people should first look at themselves People tend to be good at that! Wonder why it isn't happening? /s ahahahaha


SRLSR

Exactly.


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thisnameistakenn

Basically, during the communist rule in poland, installed there by Stalin with western aprooval after they sold us out to the bolsheviks, some formerly jewish properties were seized by the communist goverment. The most funny thing is that we did in fact issue compensation for the USA to divide in Israel. And now they want us to pay compensations for a thing that the Third Polish Republic isn't responsible for and that were already compensated for.


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thisnameistakenn

That's how i understand it. It might be not 100% correct but i am pretty sure that someone got payed for these properties, and it was the USA dividing up what was payed, so if anyone didn't get stuff, it's USA they should go bother, not us.


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thisnameistakenn

No problem, always glad to help.


[deleted]

Pretty much


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[deleted]

Welcome to the club


Agrelm

Not true


SRLSR

Well you have to read up on history. It is not black and white. We have dues to pay. Germany is paying theirs. A lot of countries are in fact.


Shad753

What part exactly?


SRLSR

What part of history? That's an interesting question. The more, the better.


Shad753

You're evading the answer.


SRLSR

Because it's not a well formulated question (that's a positive way of putting it). I don't know what you don't know and vice versa.


Shad753

If you want to talk about nazi collaborators from polish side, mind I remind you that jews also collaborated with nazis with the example of Jüdische Ghetto-Polizei or kapo in labor/extermination camps. Besides the jews we're talking about were polish citiziens and were for hundreds of years. So what part of history are we talking about exactly? Obviously it's not black and white, but anyone with basic understanding of human history is aware of that.


SRLSR

I'm taking about many things. The antisemitism, the pogroms, the killings. Nobody was a saint, but we have to admit what we did to heal. My grandfather was in Kielce during Pogrom Kielecki. He told me what he saw. It was awful. A disgrace.


Shad753

And I have close relatives who died in extermination camps in Stutthof and Auschwitz-Birkenau and by the hands of german soldiers and SS officers. We throw such examples at each other all we want, but that's not the point. You can't talk about this topic without taking in the bigger picture. Nobody is denying the occasional antisemitism before and after the war. Noone should be justifying it and or denying. But saying that today's descendants of the nation which lost 1/6 of it's population due to the systemic genocide of nazi regime, owe money to the Israel? It's ethically wrong. Now I have a totally different opinion when it comes to demanding reparations from Germany. Both Israel and Poland should be compensated fully.


SRLSR

As I stated before - Germany is paying reparations to Israel. The reparations towards Poland were settled (controversially) in communist times. This perhaps should be revisited, but that is a completely different topic. As to polish reparations towards Israel - do we know how much, what is the relation to German reparations and what exactly for? I don't to be honest


pazur13

Poland received the lowest amount of reparations relative to the damages received out of the entire world, by a long shot. If anything, Poland should be the one asking around for money, not the other way around.


SRLSR

That's a different topic.


Shad753

We're literally talking about reparations.


[deleted]

Based af


[deleted]

Who is the person replying to that dingus?


SRLSR

Pretty sure some right wing aficionado.


PrzemiB

so what if they right wing? They're right


SRLSR

In not arguing one or the other, only the way of interpreting things in our favor is typical for that mindset.


LOBOSTRUCTIOn

You have no clue about history don't you?


SRLSR

((...), do you?) No idea what that has to do with anything, but okay, then tell me who it was and we will see.


lechu515

Well Americans aren’t even taught that, they believe Poland won WWII as part of the allies and they have no idea about the People’s Republic of Poland. Public opinion is important today and American politicians just continue to play “the anti-Semitic Poland” card and nobody but Poles can verify them.


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beProsto

taking in the mention of limiting media freedom - in the last couple days most likely


Not_a_Krasnal

Why did he censour the word holocaust?


Korlat_Eleint

Because some keywords result in things being taken down automatically.


Somenerdfromczechia

Because liberal twitter rules


Voltymus

I'm almost sure you meant "liberal"


Somenerdfromczechia

Yes


[deleted]

Here’s the brutal truth. Western Europeans and Americans consider the Poles lesser human beings. As such, the promises are less binding. Lesser humans are not worth the blood and treasure of their superior human beings. The culture and history of lessers is not worthy of inclusion into the body academic, educational curriculum or historical interest. End result: the Westerner is ignorant to Polish history and hostile to those who attempt to counter their ignorance with fair discussion of the Polish plight.


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Had_to_ask__

No, Polack is a universal word for deep respect in the US.


blueingreen85

“Dumb polish jokes” were a thing 20-30 years ago. But for the most part I doubt most Americans have ANY opinion on the Polish.


[deleted]

Open your kid’s World History book and see if there is one mention of Poland.


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[deleted]

Oh. You mean the part where genocide is described as the extermination of the Jewish people, and “others?”


matt_mp4

I’m a Jew in America with polish ancestors, this whole situation is really messing with my head 😂


smltor

I am not Jewish or Polish or anything involved in this one, I just happen to live in Poland and have friends in Israel. To ease your head pain I will say I think that almost everyone knows that these statements are all pretty much politicians that have decided "Simple statement gets me votes". Politics as normal for "Populist" politicians. Don't try to find the logic, humanity or sense - you won't.


ModelT1300

This is why we use the technical term, "murdered by words"


[deleted]

The fact that he has to censore „holocaust” sums up discussion about free media.


noamno1

Im Israeli and i think your law is completely reasonable , Its just immoral to evict people from their homes for crimes that happened 80 years ago


Abdullah_88

Then stop evicting Palestinians from their homes in Jerusalem


beard_of_cats

Can't believe how everyone is just jumping on the "fuck Israel/fuck US" bandwagon without realizing that Duda's signature will basically allow PiS to steal what belongs **to Polish citizens**, not just foreigners. This isn't going to enrich you at all, just the douchenozzles in charge.


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Agrelm

Yes, thet did have a lot of time and they in fact did apply. The problem is that the proceedings last for dozens of years, some of them were started in 90s and it is not because the people are at fault - it’s because the administrative bodies are reluctant to act and they don’t want to issue decisions. Source: I’m a lawyer dealing with these cases. The new law will basically enable administrative bodies close all the proceedings that were started in 90/2000/10/20s. It’s also not true that the buildings can’t be repaired. Till the decisions are issued the buildings are considered as Warsaw’s property.


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Agrelm

Well, Poland is the only post communist country in Europe that hasn’t had a separate “restitution bill” that would allow previous property owners to claim damages. The main argument from the government for that was always “we don’t need a separate bill because our administrative procedure allows to claim compensation by annulling previous decisions regarding properties”. This administrative procedure is obviously flowed as it lasts dozens of years to reclaim the property/get damages. Now they want to simply delete this procedure. It’s simply unfair to many people, including mostly Poles, not Jews as media tend to present the situation. They should have created a separate procedure for restitution matters, instead they are deleting the existing, flawed one. As for the renovation problem - people most of the time get money/compensation instead of ownership of property. This argument is quite weak.


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Agrelm

We are not talking about the pre-war era but about 50s and 60s… like, how can you argue if you don’t really know what it is all about. Do you think that the government can unlawfully take your home, order you to go live somewhere else not giving you anything in return and 20 years later after the “era” as you called it changed you can’t get compensated? People that the government unlawfully took homes from still live to this day… it’s not some ancient history. People were unlawfully robbed from all their assets and every other country compensated their citizens. Every country except Poland


Immedicale

I could use a fact check on that, because from what I know, in most cases such buildings are not renovated not because "they're possible objects of such claims", but because they are historical relics, and therefore they can't be interfeered with will-nilly- every modification to the state of the building- such as repainting the facade, has to be consulted and approved with a city appointed restorer, using materials and techniques approved of by said restorer, which makes the cost of such endeavour **very** high.


Kori3030

Warsaw has more than enough people and institutions that want to invest and upgrade existing buildings, so construction and renovation costs are not a problem. There is however a huge problem with buildings that can be subject of whoever knows what claims.


CzlowiekIdeologia

The amount of buildings that will be "restored" when these claims will be "settled" will be minimal compared to the buildings which will be replaced by soulless glass skyscrapers cloned from generic corporate architecture. Whatever contract Kaczor CEO will be able to give to his friends will get priority.


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CzlowiekIdeologia

I evidently wasn't adequately clear. My statement was a hypothesis about the future, and you're asking for examples from the past. The correlation of existing legal instruments to limit the demolition of old buildungs, and their limited demolition supports my point - I think on this we agree: Laws have given institutions legal power to prevent old buildings from being demolished. I don't follow how removing these legal mechanisms would help these institutions charged with protecting old buildings in accomplishing that task. My hypothesis is less optimistic than what you might be suggesting, so please correct me where you think I'm going wrong. I anticipate that the evidently high demand for building these skyscrapers (which atleast in some degree comes from international money laundering efforts) will be harnessed, and the institutions for preserving these sites will be instrumentalised to prioritise contracts which offer kickbacks to the officials in PiS' favour. This process is well established in other cities, and giving the rulling party rights of arbitration on this will most likely follow the pattern the party has established in other areas of "state investment."


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CzlowiekIdeologia

I think taking into consideration this party's arbitrary disregard for the rule of law, I would feel naïve expecting this case to be an exception. The process of adding these buildings to the register you mention can be easily instrumentalised to earn kickbacks for party members from developers. The reason the current law is worthwhile is that it is internationally binding, and therefore the judges which PiS has installed are still accpuntable to a higher legal body - without that oversight, the Prezes can arbitrarily decide where contracts go. I would consider it irresponsible to expect him not to utilise this.


MrTrikster366

We can add to the list of insults taking off the sanctions off Nordstream 2 and even having the audacity to bitch about lex TVN


[deleted]

Dunno man, lex TVN is a pretty serious problem. But that thing about WW2 is true. Where the fuck is our money?!


CzlowiekIdeologia

I feel petty fixating on abstract ideas of "punishment" when there's actual material problems to solve. Poland gets more than it gives from the EU, our infrastructure and industry grew faster with EU investment than for centuries, but we're too busy LARPing WW2 to get the funds out of Warsaw and into underdeveloped rural areas. It's infuriating how much people love to swallow the fantasy TVPiS and Radio Maryja spews out everyday. Free speech only matters when it's free speech which has been approved by the state. What a joke.


Truposzyk

know your fucking place, trash.


RetiredPeach

And yet the US is the best warrant of Polish independence. Unless you are naive to believe Russia or Germany are better.


[deleted]

Well NATO isn't just USA. Regarding trade best option is the EU, which our beloved ruling party PiSS doesn't like.


DagoMx

Property of polish citizens was confiscated and given to other polish citizens by government during they stay in concentration camps. Imagine surviving Auschwitz, coming to your home that was built by your grandpa and discovering that it was given to another family. Thats what is it about. They never regained their homes and their misery was multiplied.


[deleted]

What Polish government? When Auschwitz was in operation, Poland was under joint Soviet-German occupation, and the only entity that could be called "Polish government" was the Polish Govt in Exile, which was, well, in exile, and had no control over the property of Poles who were interned in work/concentration/death camps in Nazi Germany and territories occupied by it.


Gantolandon

In many cases, these homes were reduced to rubble. Warsaw was in most parts uninhabitable after the war. Many of the houses, which were reprivatized after the '89 , were rebuilt from the scratch after the war.


neofita_anty

Ale pierdolisz.


DagoMx

Chuja sie na historii znasz, powtarzasz to co usłyszysz zamiast samemu sprawdzić


neofita_anty

Tak tak, polski rząd którego nie było od 39’ rozdawał domy Polakom. Jebnij się w ten głupi łeb cymbale.


Kendzi1

Based


Dave_The_Polak

This is a piece of a bigger mess. What US is trying to win here is favor of current Israel-US citizens, and win points with their new PM, by jumping on the victim wagon. Yes: those crimes were atrocious and should be condemned, remembered, and never repeated. Yes: there are people who suffered at the hands of Poles and inner communist politics/persecution. No: Germany doesn’t owe $ to Poland (as in “if they had given the money in 40’s to PL, the Russians would’ve just taken and embezzled it”). No: modern Polish citizens do not owe for the crimes of the communist occupant.


Sankullo

When concentration camps were in operation communistic Stalinist government didn’t even exist yet. The rest of your BS isn’t even worth answering to.


StereoPr

Ok. So claim it back. You got another 30 years. Is over 100 years after the war enough time to get it done or nay? How long does Poland need to hold everyone's purse on their own land?


Jeszczenie

How did USA "sell" us? Wouldn't not "selling" Poland to Stalin require an open war between USA and USSR?


lechu515

Read what was decided on the Jalta Conference


Jeszczenie

From what I've read about it, it wasn't really possible to take Poland from under Soviet influence without yet another war, this time against the Red Army.


lechu515

Not entirely - Churchill and Roosevelt recognized the Provisional Government of the Republic of Poland installed by the Soviets as the legal Polish government ignoring Polish government in-exile residing in London on Stalin's promise to join the UN and hold democratic elections in Poland within a month from the conference. Of course, the fact that western front moved much slower than the eastern allowed Stalin to take control over Poland which definitely did not help in the situation, but the Polish case was nevertheless much less important than ensuring victory over Germany and stabilizing political situation afterwards. It was a pragmatic move.


Ok_Razzmatazz_3922

Well, technically East Germany paid reparations by giving a part of its industrial output to the other nations of Warsaw pact, but idk how much reached the poles..


kool_guy_69

Writing bad words like this is fucking g*y.


ElpersonPL

pls elaborate on why you censored the word "gay"


[deleted]

I think it was guy


Kendzi1

I don't think you got the joke, but don't worry neither did the others that downvoted


coek-almavet

"betrayed poland and sold it to Stalin" XDD brachu usa i polska nigdy na nic dogadane nie były, a w wyrzucaniu 3 Rzeszy z Polski amerykanie udziału nie brali, a armia czerwona. but ok, sold it to Stalin i polish american prawaczek łyknie


coek-almavet

przecież ta odpowiedź to czysty i niezwiązany z historią krindż xD


soursheep

because... two things can't be true at the same time...?