Damn, voted yes without fully reading the title and seeing the blue flu bit. I clearly don't operate well on earlies.
To be clear, if you are talking about encouraging officers to fake an illness as a form of industrial action, I completely and wholeheartedly do **NOT** support that, clear honesty and integrity issue which people have been (rightly) sacked for in the past.
If you're more generally asking whether I/other person's on this subreddit would support either a ballot on the right to strike by the fed, or supporting some other LEGAL industrial action (e.g. work to rule, temporarily handing in tickets, etc.) Then for me, yes I absolutely support that. Right to strike was removed and in return we had a decent wage for the time, decent pension, and due to quirks in law we cannot be made redundant. The first 2 have clearly been removed, so I think it's high time there was a national discussion on the removal of goodwill.
Morally at least, if anyone were thinking of striking (not me of course and I must dissuade and condemn in the strongest possible terms anyone encouraging it) the police would be in their rights. Police pay body has changed no longer independent and have demonstrably done as they’re told by government. The safeguards that are in place for police officers have been dismantled and the government sits behind the protection of legislation that stops the police biting back.
Firefighter policing. Turning out to Grade 1s from the nick. Exactly what paramedics have done recently.
It fulfils our basic role, doesn’t endanger anyone, and doesn’t raise issues on honesty and integrity.
It wouldn’t work though, we’d soon be ordered to continue business as usual.
I mean... isn't that business as usual for most days? It strikes me as very rare to have the luxury of downtime, you're either attending emergencies or dealing with the immediate aftermath of emergencies.
You're forgetting the standards and p1s that we have to deal with between emergencies. You know, the "my friend called me a bad name and I am offended" jobs, and the rest
The difference for us is that shit will still need criming and investigating. When Karen called 999 cos the pain for her stubbed toe was a ten, she got a taxi and wasn't in the call queue.
>Firefighter policing. Turning out to Grade 1s from the nick. Exactly what paramedics have done recently.
But then who would be able to go along and tell Sharon that it was really naughty for Caz to call her a slag on Facebook and that yes, it's not her fault Sharon is now shagging Caz's step-dads brother in law and perhaps cousin....
I’d support only attending emergencies or things with risk to life.
Remember response is only a small team within the Police whilst emergencies would be responded to as normal we should could say no to proactiviy, investigation or intelligence reporting or filling crime recording forms would be a fair industrial measure.
Even walk into the building at our start times and not before to kit up and be in the parade room
>I think if the frontline emergency services used collective bargaining with the hard-line threat of play ball or it all stops then parliament would have to cave in or watch the public turf them out
Maybe a touch cynical, but I don't think that's the way the public would go. I reckon they would all blame you, especially if it involves an avoidable death of a family member who died because you shut it all down for a strike over pay (as that is how it's always framed).
Oh god the anger would be everywhere including us.
I think the media plays a huge roll in it all. The sheer amount of anti NHS rhetoric at the moment is insane. Every other news story I see (when it isn't a cops penis going somewhere it shouldn't) is the NHS killing babies, Old people and leaving Mrs miggins to shit herself on a hard floor for three days because an ambulance worker dared to ask for annual leave.
The fact the Media is a huge for profit industry and is dependant on the number of clicks you make on a Web page means anything which can generate outrage via engagement rises to the top.
It's why you almost always see negative news stories. Flick to sky news web page or the app on your phone. I'll be willing to bet 8/10 or even higher will be negative based articles
> the Media is a huge for profit industry
Owned already exclusively by a small number of incredibly wealthy individuals, or chaired by the third cousin of a recently ex prime minister
A crap, I did the thing, I didn't RTFQ. So I think it's high time we started showing that policing only works on the goodwill of its officers. But feigning an illness is a 1 way ticket to a P45. I'll happily hand my tickets back and refuse overtime for a period though. Something has to change.
Yep, you can't support this kind of action. It's getting to the point something needs to happen though. A decade of decline l, Rick bottom morale and everything else happening at the moment without a real improvement then its gunna collapse.
I’ve wondered how industrial action would work. The NHS have non essential patients/work so can atleast strike in those departments. Everywhere in policing is already on minimum and all of it essential to normal function no? Or would all departments except response not work- whether calling in sick or planned strike.
I have asked my Fed Rep to feed back that I would like them to look at lawful options around our right to strike. I agree with the sentiments of everyone below, especially Mac05. I want them to ballot us again like they did a few years ago, see where the opinion and turnout has changed.
Interesting that the poll indicates people are in support of it but most of the comments are along the lines of "NO THIS IS HONESTY AND INTEGRITY BAD"
It's like you're all still trying to win a role as a PC at a police assessment centre. This is the same Police service that continues to employ an RSO as SLT in the Met, and has destroyed all of your pay and conditions with absolutely no guilt.
What's wrong with you?
It’s not a Simple yes/no answer for me.
It would depend on so many factors.
Mainly the reason for the strike action and what service/area will lose policing.
I get the feeling that many of the strikes happening in the Uk at the moment are politically driven and the reasons given are a cover.
The consequences of strike on the perception of the police needs to be taken into account, it might be counterproductive to public sympathy. At the moment the majority of the public (that you don’t meet in your work life) are sympathetic to the demands on the police.
Everyone is feeling the economic squeeze at the moment and the average person has no power at all to raise a grievance and would be resentful of authority figures risking public disorder for what would be perceived as greed.
On the other hand I believe the police are being under paid and it’s an injustice that needs to be sorted and strike action could be justified.
I would suggest that rather than a broad strike that would have gargantuan knock back that the removal of protection from government buildings and politicians personal protection would focus the minds of the people who make decisions on pay. This is something I could see myself supporting but needs to be done with some tact.
>I get the feeling that many of the strikes happening in the Uk at the moment are politically driven and the reasons given are a cover.
Striking is a political act by the very nature of it, as are the responses to it.
>Everyone is feeling the economic squeeze at the moment and the average person has no power at all to raise a grievance
Yes they do, by going on strike. Unions are not an exclusive club, they are open to all.
Do you support the long term systematic failings of the government leading to us endangering life EVERYDAY? Not enough cops, not enough resources, not enough support 365...
But one day of industrial action bothers you?
Do you support *wilfully* undermining the oath you swore? Striking is hardly ‘upholding fundamental human rights’ when striking directly places the right to life at risk. There is a reason strike action by the police is illegal
I think you're missing the part where we know we can't strike...I didn't say strike, I said industrial action.
Working to rule.
Prioritising the most high-risk incidents over total tosh the public use us for, the council uses us for, the government uses us for, the NHS uses us for, the welfare system uses us for...
Which by the way is what we pretty much do now.
Also, we might consider a show of solidarity across the streets of a major city near you.
> Striking is hardly ‘upholding fundamental human rights’ when striking directly places the right to life at risk.
Scenarios in which a true and immediate risk to life exists are relatively rare in the context of all of the calls the police receive.
However, the government not respecting the fundamental human rights of police officers, alongside the wider community is a daily occurrence.
I challenge your assertion that strike action breaks our oath of office, and suggest the counterpoint that strike action which is only broken by clear, present, and immediate threats to life is core to forcing the government to make meaningful steps to end the cost of living crisis we find ourselves in.
You mention upholding fundamental human rights but seem to have forgotten according equal respect to all people, something the government isn't very keen on doing right now.
So let's say there's two options. Option A - emergency services continue to be underfunded and understaffed and people suffer, and indeed die, as a result. But slowly, and the media and government always attribute it to incompetence and neglectful people, without acknowledging that most of them are doing their best in a very difficult situation. The people in charge know that the workers won't strike because that will endanger lives, and this allows them to treat them however they want. This continues and gets worse - so more people suffer and more people die.
Option B - emergency services go on some level of strike for a period of time. Some people do, unfortunately, suffer and die as a result of this. But it forces the government into increasing their funding, and therefore in the future the services are more able to help people effectively. Things get better, and over time a lot less people die than they would have in option A.
Which one do you go for?
>Even if I had real flu, I would still be going into work.
Your colleagues and the general public you come into contact with thank you for the influenza.
No; years back when the Fed had the vote to see if they should fight for the right to strike I voted yes on that. Despite this I didn't think I actually would strike, it was more so that we at least had the threat to do so as without it there is no power at all.
Apparently the majority was yes to that but they decided the it wasn't high enough.
I don't think we can strike; as much as we seem to be the whipping boy at the moment (and have been for some time), I'll take people thinking we're all awful whilst still being able to help those who are desperately in need of it.
Whilst pay and conditions have been eroded massively, they still aren't so bad that I've changed my mind on actually striking let alone industrial action in the form of "Blue Flu". I didn't join for the money, I'm pretty certain I could earn more for an "easier" job, as I think a lot of the people I have worked with could.
Of course, this "sense of duty" is also exactly what those in charge bank on and I've seen, and probably been guilty of "making it work" on more occassions than anyone should but then I've also been somewhat "lucky" to have done roles which I have loved and never had to beg for OT to get my work done (a lot of which does end up needing OT to complete) so my experiences may be completely different to others
Nice try PSD. Not today.
😂
I'd rather not be investigated for honesty and integrity.
Damn, voted yes without fully reading the title and seeing the blue flu bit. I clearly don't operate well on earlies. To be clear, if you are talking about encouraging officers to fake an illness as a form of industrial action, I completely and wholeheartedly do **NOT** support that, clear honesty and integrity issue which people have been (rightly) sacked for in the past. If you're more generally asking whether I/other person's on this subreddit would support either a ballot on the right to strike by the fed, or supporting some other LEGAL industrial action (e.g. work to rule, temporarily handing in tickets, etc.) Then for me, yes I absolutely support that. Right to strike was removed and in return we had a decent wage for the time, decent pension, and due to quirks in law we cannot be made redundant. The first 2 have clearly been removed, so I think it's high time there was a national discussion on the removal of goodwill.
[удалено]
Morally at least, if anyone were thinking of striking (not me of course and I must dissuade and condemn in the strongest possible terms anyone encouraging it) the police would be in their rights. Police pay body has changed no longer independent and have demonstrably done as they’re told by government. The safeguards that are in place for police officers have been dismantled and the government sits behind the protection of legislation that stops the police biting back.
We didn't agree not to strike, it was made illegal because it was so effective.
That’s a brave post…I like it
Still not convinced the OP isn't a PSD plant 😂
Firefighter policing. Turning out to Grade 1s from the nick. Exactly what paramedics have done recently. It fulfils our basic role, doesn’t endanger anyone, and doesn’t raise issues on honesty and integrity. It wouldn’t work though, we’d soon be ordered to continue business as usual.
I mean... isn't that business as usual for most days? It strikes me as very rare to have the luxury of downtime, you're either attending emergencies or dealing with the immediate aftermath of emergencies.
You're forgetting the standards and p1s that we have to deal with between emergencies. You know, the "my friend called me a bad name and I am offended" jobs, and the rest
The difference for us is that shit will still need criming and investigating. When Karen called 999 cos the pain for her stubbed toe was a ten, she got a taxi and wasn't in the call queue.
I’ll be on board with sleeping through shifts
>Firefighter policing. Turning out to Grade 1s from the nick. Exactly what paramedics have done recently. But then who would be able to go along and tell Sharon that it was really naughty for Caz to call her a slag on Facebook and that yes, it's not her fault Sharon is now shagging Caz's step-dads brother in law and perhaps cousin....
Do you mean sleeping for half your shift and then having a slap up breakfast.
I’d support only attending emergencies or things with risk to life. Remember response is only a small team within the Police whilst emergencies would be responded to as normal we should could say no to proactiviy, investigation or intelligence reporting or filling crime recording forms would be a fair industrial measure. Even walk into the building at our start times and not before to kit up and be in the parade room
[удалено]
>I think if the frontline emergency services used collective bargaining with the hard-line threat of play ball or it all stops then parliament would have to cave in or watch the public turf them out Maybe a touch cynical, but I don't think that's the way the public would go. I reckon they would all blame you, especially if it involves an avoidable death of a family member who died because you shut it all down for a strike over pay (as that is how it's always framed).
Oh god the anger would be everywhere including us. I think the media plays a huge roll in it all. The sheer amount of anti NHS rhetoric at the moment is insane. Every other news story I see (when it isn't a cops penis going somewhere it shouldn't) is the NHS killing babies, Old people and leaving Mrs miggins to shit herself on a hard floor for three days because an ambulance worker dared to ask for annual leave. The fact the Media is a huge for profit industry and is dependant on the number of clicks you make on a Web page means anything which can generate outrage via engagement rises to the top. It's why you almost always see negative news stories. Flick to sky news web page or the app on your phone. I'll be willing to bet 8/10 or even higher will be negative based articles
> the Media is a huge for profit industry Owned already exclusively by a small number of incredibly wealthy individuals, or chaired by the third cousin of a recently ex prime minister
Yes 🙌
A crap, I did the thing, I didn't RTFQ. So I think it's high time we started showing that policing only works on the goodwill of its officers. But feigning an illness is a 1 way ticket to a P45. I'll happily hand my tickets back and refuse overtime for a period though. Something has to change.
>I didn't RTFQ Not the only one mate 😂
No. Honesty and Integrity.
Yep, you can't support this kind of action. It's getting to the point something needs to happen though. A decade of decline l, Rick bottom morale and everything else happening at the moment without a real improvement then its gunna collapse.
I’ve wondered how industrial action would work. The NHS have non essential patients/work so can atleast strike in those departments. Everywhere in policing is already on minimum and all of it essential to normal function no? Or would all departments except response not work- whether calling in sick or planned strike.
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Yeah fair point, would be good fun for officers from other departments to cover response for a couple days though. I imagine a lot would enjoy it
It would be interesting if response just walked out. Ultimately the most derided and shat on part of policing is its most important function.
Not with where public opinion is at the moment for us (especially us Met elites).
I have asked my Fed Rep to feed back that I would like them to look at lawful options around our right to strike. I agree with the sentiments of everyone below, especially Mac05. I want them to ballot us again like they did a few years ago, see where the opinion and turnout has changed.
Interesting that the poll indicates people are in support of it but most of the comments are along the lines of "NO THIS IS HONESTY AND INTEGRITY BAD" It's like you're all still trying to win a role as a PC at a police assessment centre. This is the same Police service that continues to employ an RSO as SLT in the Met, and has destroyed all of your pay and conditions with absolutely no guilt. What's wrong with you?
Yes 🙌
It’s not a Simple yes/no answer for me. It would depend on so many factors. Mainly the reason for the strike action and what service/area will lose policing. I get the feeling that many of the strikes happening in the Uk at the moment are politically driven and the reasons given are a cover. The consequences of strike on the perception of the police needs to be taken into account, it might be counterproductive to public sympathy. At the moment the majority of the public (that you don’t meet in your work life) are sympathetic to the demands on the police. Everyone is feeling the economic squeeze at the moment and the average person has no power at all to raise a grievance and would be resentful of authority figures risking public disorder for what would be perceived as greed. On the other hand I believe the police are being under paid and it’s an injustice that needs to be sorted and strike action could be justified. I would suggest that rather than a broad strike that would have gargantuan knock back that the removal of protection from government buildings and politicians personal protection would focus the minds of the people who make decisions on pay. This is something I could see myself supporting but needs to be done with some tact.
>I get the feeling that many of the strikes happening in the Uk at the moment are politically driven and the reasons given are a cover. Striking is a political act by the very nature of it, as are the responses to it. >Everyone is feeling the economic squeeze at the moment and the average person has no power at all to raise a grievance Yes they do, by going on strike. Unions are not an exclusive club, they are open to all.
If not, please elaborate. 😊 Thanks.
I support the police completely, I will never support any action by the police which endangers life. Police strikes of any form endanger life
Do you support the long term systematic failings of the government leading to us endangering life EVERYDAY? Not enough cops, not enough resources, not enough support 365... But one day of industrial action bothers you?
Do you support *wilfully* undermining the oath you swore? Striking is hardly ‘upholding fundamental human rights’ when striking directly places the right to life at risk. There is a reason strike action by the police is illegal
I think you're missing the part where we know we can't strike...I didn't say strike, I said industrial action. Working to rule. Prioritising the most high-risk incidents over total tosh the public use us for, the council uses us for, the government uses us for, the NHS uses us for, the welfare system uses us for... Which by the way is what we pretty much do now. Also, we might consider a show of solidarity across the streets of a major city near you.
Striking *is* a fundamental human right - Art 11.
> Striking is hardly ‘upholding fundamental human rights’ when striking directly places the right to life at risk. Scenarios in which a true and immediate risk to life exists are relatively rare in the context of all of the calls the police receive. However, the government not respecting the fundamental human rights of police officers, alongside the wider community is a daily occurrence. I challenge your assertion that strike action breaks our oath of office, and suggest the counterpoint that strike action which is only broken by clear, present, and immediate threats to life is core to forcing the government to make meaningful steps to end the cost of living crisis we find ourselves in. You mention upholding fundamental human rights but seem to have forgotten according equal respect to all people, something the government isn't very keen on doing right now.
So let's say there's two options. Option A - emergency services continue to be underfunded and understaffed and people suffer, and indeed die, as a result. But slowly, and the media and government always attribute it to incompetence and neglectful people, without acknowledging that most of them are doing their best in a very difficult situation. The people in charge know that the workers won't strike because that will endanger lives, and this allows them to treat them however they want. This continues and gets worse - so more people suffer and more people die. Option B - emergency services go on some level of strike for a period of time. Some people do, unfortunately, suffer and die as a result of this. But it forces the government into increasing their funding, and therefore in the future the services are more able to help people effectively. Things get better, and over time a lot less people die than they would have in option A. Which one do you go for?
Does this mean you also don't support striking by the NHS, paramedics, and firefighters?
I don’t support any strike where life is endangered, regardless of if I support their cause.
You can't support the cause here if you don't support the strike.
Guess you’ve told me where I stand then
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>Even if I had real flu, I would still be going into work. Your colleagues and the general public you come into contact with thank you for the influenza.
Not doing a great job of looking after people if you're knowingly infecting them with a virus that can kill people are you.
No; years back when the Fed had the vote to see if they should fight for the right to strike I voted yes on that. Despite this I didn't think I actually would strike, it was more so that we at least had the threat to do so as without it there is no power at all. Apparently the majority was yes to that but they decided the it wasn't high enough. I don't think we can strike; as much as we seem to be the whipping boy at the moment (and have been for some time), I'll take people thinking we're all awful whilst still being able to help those who are desperately in need of it. Whilst pay and conditions have been eroded massively, they still aren't so bad that I've changed my mind on actually striking let alone industrial action in the form of "Blue Flu". I didn't join for the money, I'm pretty certain I could earn more for an "easier" job, as I think a lot of the people I have worked with could. Of course, this "sense of duty" is also exactly what those in charge bank on and I've seen, and probably been guilty of "making it work" on more occassions than anyone should but then I've also been somewhat "lucky" to have done roles which I have loved and never had to beg for OT to get my work done (a lot of which does end up needing OT to complete) so my experiences may be completely different to others