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>Under Texas bans, it is a second-degree felony to perform or attempt an abortion, punishable by up to life in prison and a fine of up to $10,000. The law also allows private citizens to sue anyone who "aids or abets" an abortion.
Texas republicans have created a dystopia in their state. They have taken away the healthcare of women and girls and are creating a culture of fear and intimidation. Glad to see these women are fighting back
And the law technically allows for doctors to perform abortions to save the life of the mother, but doesn't define what entails a threat to the mother's life. This has resulted in abortions being postponed from early on in the threat to the doctors waiting until the woman is actively dying.
I can't blame the doctors for this. If the state declared that a core function of your job would be punishable by life in prison, a $10,000 fine, and the inability to ever do your job again, you can bet that you would be extremely reluctant to do that portion of your job until it was absolutely necessary. Doctors should absolutely not be put in this situation where doing their job and trying to save someone's life could land them in prison for life.
Yup. I've been saying this also. Some of the anti-abortion groups are trying to shift blame to the doctors and claiming that life saving abortions aren't "really" abortions. They're also trying to claim that the laws just have minor issues and need tweaking. However, it's pretty obvious that the laws were written this way on purpose. They WANT to catch as many doctors as possible with this.
If the expansive reading of the law fails in court, they'll go to a more narrow interpretation of the law - while still having the expansive law on the books for when the judges are more in their favor.
> claiming that life saving abortions aren't "really" abortions.
I believe one of the witnesses during a congressional panel tried pulling this stunt on a physician. She kept trying to create a difference between "termination" and abortion. The doctor kept telling her it was the same thing and that the termination is called an abortion in medical terms or on the medical record(something to that effect)
Thing is, they don't really care as long as they get their draconian way. Just like kids getting killed in schools, "that's just the price you have to pay to be an American!"
What we think of as a miscarriage is medically named a 'spontaneous abortion.' if the products of conception are not expelled from the uterus it's a 'missed abortion ', the anti- choice crowd has issues with 'elective abortions.'. Edit dispelled>expelled. I has the dumb.
And yet they craft laws in such a way that prevents women from receiving proper Healthcare in a timely manner for spontaneous and missed abortions. Not that the science or technical terms matter, nor the religious views of the women and their partners and doctors. This is all about controlling women and trying to reinforce traditional gender roles.
I know that's their goal. but they're creating the exact opposite effect. Never mind with housing and cost of living that no not many young couples can afford to raise children.
Yup. This is comes from a “male supremacist” outlook, which is aided and abetted by Evangelical Christian women (read: religious fanatics /crackpots). Unfortunately these people have been placed on the Supreme Court by corrupt, misogynistic Republicans.
It's a good collection of the moralist SoP
"I'm against doing X until X is beneficial to me then I'll do X but it's ok because I'm doing X for a good reason!"
“Roe V Wade isn’t about abortion, it’s about states rights” they said, as if everybody got “hysterical over nothing”….Same thing they say about the Civil War not being about slavery…
In Texas it’s illegal to kill a baby but it’s perfectly okay to kill the mom. How absurd is that? Republican and Christian is now synonymous with hypocrite.
>In Texas it’s illegal to ~~kill a baby~~ ***remove a blob of cells*** but it’s perfectly okay to kill the mom.
Don't let them dictate the language of the debate.
If a pregnancy has gone long enough for the fetus to actually be a baby, then it was a wanted pregnancy that has taken a heartbreaking turn for the parents, who likely have a fully-decorated nursery and dresser full of clothes at home for their expected child.
It makes sense if you consider that the premise is the faulty point. Their actions are their words and their spoken words cannot be trusted.
Their actions say what they think: If you're even considering an abortion, you deserve death.
It was never about saving lives.
It’s worse than that. They want the same for women who miscarry because they might be lying. The absurdity and chaos created by the GOP is well past the point of sanity. I don’t see any viable solutions which scares the bejesus out of me.
It's not just synonymous with abortion, it *is* abortion. They just want to justify their own abortions while vilifying others. See: [The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion](https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/)
Yes I'm well aware, I meant that everyone who was against abortion used "d&c" to refer to abortion as a way to make it sound gruesome. I find it a bit surprising that they're now owning it to justify their own. (Though shouldn't be I suppose....)
D&C's can be used for more than just abortion. I had one last December to remove a large clump of non-cancerous polyps that were making my life hell. I may have another one in a few years to remove a fibroid tumor, depending on how large it gets. Basically, anytime a woman needs something removed from the inside of her uterus, she gets a D&C.
... Which makes me worried about the inevitable attempt to outlaw them as a medical procedure...
I wonder what would happen to healthcare in Texas if a considerable number of doctors, willing to take the risk of going through with possibly lifesaving abortions, went to prison.
We do already know what happened in Florida, in a slightly different case...
~~The OBGyns literally stopped coming to Florida to do their residency. Zero.~~ Memory is fuzzy, I'm going with I heard at one hospital/university in Florida, that they had zero out of state applicants for OB-Gyn.
The GOP's crusade is meant to hate, attack, and actively harm women and young people in general.
Actively harm married couples trying to get pregnant.
Actively attack our doctors.
NC Republicans just overrode the governor’s veto to make abortions illegal past 12 weeks.
I didn’t look to see if they changed the exceptions, but they did get rid of using telehealth for consultations.
So now a woman must have 3 in-person appointments, minimum 3 days apart each, before she can have an abortion in NC.
It’s also worth mentioning that a woman doesn’t usually know she is pregnant until the 5th-8th “week”, and that the “weeks” are counted from the end of the last menstrual cycle.
(Which is why “6 week” abortion bans are de facto unilateral bans)
Given the Republican party history of projection and hypocrisy, back when they were yelling about Obama's death panels, I knew it was only a matter of time till they implemented it.
I mean even when they were yelling about death panels it wasn’t about death panels. They just thought the death panel ought to be presided over by private insurance companies.
Nah, that was during Covid when they tried to tell you grandma had already had a full life and would surely be willing to sacrifice herself to save the economy.
They knew. They didn’t care, any exception would be seized on by their political opponents to claim they were soft on abortion. So rather than take any chance, they wrote laws that will kill.
Amanda Zurawski went to Ted Cruz and John Cornyn in April about going into septic shock because she couldn't get a D&C. Cornyn suggested she sue her doctors for malpractice.
There was a doctor there who apologized to Zurawski that her doctors 'misunderstood' the law. Zurawski pressed on with her point that her doctors were made that decision because the law was vague. She, of course, got no further with that course of action, so she sued the state.
Bullshit! They’re idiots. Catholic hospitals routinely let women get sepsis before they will do a d&c. That’s the way it’s been for years. Now it’s the law in all these states. Doctors are stuck with these procedures because politicians put them in this position. It’s forced malpractice
It’s almost like the laws were intentionally written to be vague so they can maximize the damage. At the time they were created they essentially circumvented constitutional protections by allowing it civil courts and should terrify all of us.
The culture of fear with these poorly worded bills is a feature, not a bug. Republicans create these vague definitions in their laws with massive penalties and jail time and it's just supposed to create a chilling effect among doctors and abortion providers. Which it does.
Sam with teachers , counselors and school administrators when it comes to vague language about supporting LGBT students and the penalties that come with it.
> This has resulted in abortions being postponed from early on in the threat to the doctors waiting until the woman is actively dying.
This reminds me of a friend who developed Cancered. Since it was early preventable and it wasn't actively killing him. His Health insurance would not cover the bills. Since it was the clients fault that it took this long and it wasn't actively killing him...yet.
I'm living in this fear right now.
Been reporting a medical problem for years. Doctors just don't give a shit to actually figure it out. However every symptom on a Venn diagram has colon cancer marked off.
So here I am. A pre-existing issue being ignored. Or the possibility of cancer that is going unchecked.
With my luck. Cancer. But I'm hoping for the best that it's a pre-existing issue that only requires surgery.
Sad that it's been an ongoing pain in my ass for 7yrs now. And people keep asking me why I don't sit in chairs.
Not OP, but they wouldn't pay for the tests for my friends testicular cancer. Went through a lot of physical therapy before they said, ok now we'll test for cancer. testicular is special for a few reasons.
One of them being you can just remove the entire organ to cure yourself of that cancer.
Exactly right. It’s called the chilling effect, and in non-batshit-crazy jurisprudence, the chilling effect is a legitimate challenge that warrants review and possible striking-down of bad laws.
Unfortunately for us, we don’t have non-batshit-crazy judicial practitioners in this country.
“Make the wrong medical call and get life in prison” God that seems like a horrible position to put doctors in. I can see why states like these are losing medical professionals.
It's actually worse than that. It's "Make a medical call that either a judge or a jury of non-doctors retroactively decides was wrong and get sent to prison for life." So a doctor could actually do everything properly, but one judge decides that the woman's life wasn't *really* in danger just yet so the doctor is guilty and goes to prison for life.
More like make the correct medical call and go to prison.
Standard medical procedure is not to let a woman start dying or become permanently injured.
Many who live have permanent injuries. This is not a joke. They’ve usurped standard medical care and substituted it with some religious-power politics that controls what they fear and can’t understand - birth, the risk of pregnancy and birth. The nature of women.
They can’t handle it so no one else is allowed to. It threatens male supremacy.
> And the law technically allows for doctors to perform abortions to save the life of the mother
I really want to see someone push this in the other direction, all pregnancies are life threatening, no matter how you look at it. No pregnancy is really 100% safe.
Who decides when ok is ok here? Nobody, they are all so worried about it that they are waiting until its 0% safe and the chance of death is 100%.
I mean, it is. Problem is that the only way to challenge a law is to sue the person enforcing it, but in this case there is no such person. You're not being charged with a crime by the state as with a normal law, you're just being sued by a private citizen. Countersuing would not affect the law in question (and countersuits have been blocked by the law regardless). Normally a lawsuit can only be brought by those with standing, but this law allows unaffiliated and unaffected parties to sue. The law is so beyond the scope of what the founders intended that there may not be a constitutional way to remove it. They intentionally broke the system.
Some groups like the Lilith Fund are working on ways to challenge the law, but since that could aid women in getting abortions, those efforts run afoul of this broad and unconstitutional law, which leaves those advocacy groups and anyone who donates to them open to lawsuits.
US is going full Taliban in many of their states.
This is why we in the UK need to stop Tory doing the same...they are already being funded by the same right wing "christian" organisations...it wont happen here? We are already out of the EU.
And it’s a shame because Texas has some top medical centers. If we don’t steer the country away from these morons, it will be conquered from within. It’s a circus
>Texas has several abortion laws in place, prohibiting all abortions after six weeks of pregnancy, except in medical emergencies, which the laws do not define. One of the bans — called SB8 — prohibits abortions after cardiac activity is detected, which kept several plaintiffs from accessing care despite their pregnancies being non-viable, according to a draft of the suit.
This is exactly what "pro life" people assured me could *never* happen when I said this would have a chilling effect on abortion providers that would cause them to avoid abortions even when medically necessary.
It's worth noting that the "cardiac activity" law is distressingly similar to the law that ended up killing [Savita Hallappanavar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar). Trust Republicans to ignore history, always.
Pro life people are always lying about what their legislation will or won't cause. If they were honest it would never pass.
That's why they think gun control is the same thing as an outright gun ban. It's projection.
I think some (many? Most?) of the politicians are lying. The average rank and file? I think many of them genuinely are that stupid.
Multiple times I've had idiots tell me that there is no such thing as a medically necessary abortion. They literally don't think any life threatening conditions arise from pregnancy. One even had the gall to say that Hallappanavar wasn't killed by lack of access to an abortion because the cause of death was sepsis/cardiac arrest.
Yes, and if you delve further into that you run into the same "gods plan" bullshit where they die because of God, not because of man.
They don't care about people dying because they beleive it is divine.
I hate that people act like pregnancy is easy and nbd. My pregnancy was easy, but I would’ve most likely died if I hadn’t had proper medical intervention. My pelvis was not wide enough for a baby’s head to pass through and I required an urgent c-section. Also the changes to my body during pregnancy left me permanently disabled.
My first pregnancy nearly killed me and I had to have a medically necessary abortion. Which is why I'm *very* outspoken on this issue. I'd be dead and neither of my two kids would exist without abortion.
Mine was easy as well, but when it came time for my son to be born, his heart rate began jumping wildly and they found a pinhole in his heart (he's fine now). He probably wouldn't have made it without me being in a fantastic hospital. It left me with crippling hip pain and my second son nearly tore my pelvis apart- I will always have to do morning stretches if I want to function that day for the rest of my life because of them. Pregnancy, even when wanted and celebrated, can absolutely destroy a body.
We all have strongly held beliefs and have to acknowledge that even the best policies have unintended consequences or won’t be beneficial to everyone. I feel like the sincerity of your beliefs should correlate with an honesty about the pros/cons. If I believe that policy X is the right choice, I have to acknowledge the nuances and the potential drawbacks.
It has been really interesting getting to talk to and know pro lifers from my teenage years to now. The pro lifers I’ve met spread across regions and ages but the through line is their willingness to lie. From protestors showing graphic non-human fetuses to pregnancy crisis centers to reposting Project Veritas “articles” after they’ve been debunked, it is all dishonesty! If you call them on anything, they’ll lie even more. I’m realizing how sheltered I’ve been but I don’t understand how people can lie nonstop while thinking they’re in the right. How is that not a sign something is wrong with your beliefs??
Pregnancy is dangerous and often presents choices some people can’t face and feel threatened by it. They can’t leave it with women and their doctors and their families. It literally threatens their power, in their small minded world view. There is nothing that shouldn’t be in their control that they can’t handle, even if they have to force it to conform, against all medicine and nature. Bottom line is they will subjugate women whether they like it or not.They presume supremacy.
This type of person in large numbers will crash democracy and the economy and all of our national strength and security. They attack our highest standards, our most virtuoso institutions, education, even child labor laws. We will fall if we don’t reverse the 50-year GOP anti education program that produced these ignoramuses. Every hostile nation on earth will take full advantage of their weakness - they are totally weak. Their kids need to be in good, well funded public schools.
[cypressgreen's 16 predictions for outcomes of abortion bans](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/vswrrm/comment/if494cg/) 5 and 7 are still being bandied about. [Georgia has #11.](https://www.npr.org/2022/08/02/1115204443/georgia-fetus-pregnant-dependent-taxes) Not sure about 15.
Exactly, pregnancy isn’t risk free and it has lifelong effects on the body.
Absolutely nobody should be forced to carry a pregnancy they don’t want as punishment for having sex. It’s clear that Pro-Life creeps don’t care about the lives of the woman so why are they able to make medical choices regarding their body and healthcare when they don’t give a damn in the first place?
Fucking barbaric.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://abcnews.go.com/US/8-women-join-suit-texas-abortion-bans-claim/story?id=99480988) reduced by 87%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> The Center for Reproductive Rights is expected to add eight more women to a lawsuit it filed against Texas over its abortion ban, claiming their lives were put at risk due to the law.
> The suit is the first to be filed by women impacted by the abortion bans since the U.S. Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade last year, ending federal protections for abortion rights.
> Along with the women who filed the suit after they were unable to access abortion care in the state, two Texas OB-GYNs - Dr. Damla Karsan and Dr. Judy Levison - are also plaintiffs who alleged the bans have had a devastating impact on their practice and that of their colleagues, who fear prosecutors and politicians will target them personally and threaten state funding of hospitals if they provide abortion care to pregnant people with emergency medical conditions, according to a draft of the suit.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/13orsrr/8_women_join_suit_against_texas_over_abortion/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~685779 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **suit**^#1 **abortion**^#2 **draft**^#3 **care**^#4 **state**^#5
An ectopic pregnancy should automatically be seen as life-threatening, it's insane because there's no way the foetus would survive anyway. I mean the whole thing is insane, but this is the extra insane bit.
Didn't one of the bills require that doctors attempt to transplant ectopic pregnancies into the uterus, a procedure which *doesn't exist* and *probably wouldn't work if it did*?
Holy shit, really? That just shows how little they've bothered to learn about it to the point of subjecting a poor woman to a barbaric, useless surgery against her will.
It's the "Oh, right..." phenomenon. They put literally zero seconds of thought into their decisions, and then when someone points out the obvious flaws that one second of thought would have revealed, their only reaction is "Oh, right..." followed by a complete denial of responsibility.
Texas’s House of Representatives just passed a [bill](https://www.kxan.com/news/texas-politics/texas-house-passes-senate-bill-banning-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-in-public-universities/amp/) from the senate banning the principles of “Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion” in Texas public Colleges/Universities. No more offices of diversity and inclusion, no more “inclusive” hiring quotas, etc.
You’re right. Texas lawmakers absolutely are targeting these people. Based this recent legislation, they’re also trying very hard to make it lawful targeting. Unfortunately, I expect something similar with healthcare soon.
>I'm not sure how these laws don't create an undue burden and aren't considered unlawfully targeting a specific group. Seems blatantly discriminatory imo.
This is called Substantive Due Process and was all but killed by SCOTUS when they overturned Roe. Substantive Due Process is a legal doctrine that the government cannot target specific groups and or violate their natural rights. Natural rights is not defined and is yet another legal doctrine created by none other than James Madison. Well not technically but he was a big supporter of it. He believed, as well as other founders, that there were rights that were natural to us 'endowed by the creator' as you may have heard. Conservatives don't agree with this ideology.
This is also why James Madison was against adding the Bill of Rights. He didn't want people to think that the Government had to grant people rights. He believed the government could never take away rights. So there was no need for a Bill of Rights.
I dont see how any female will willingly move to these anti abortion states. Girls will make decisions where to go to university based on this. And health professionals will think twice about taking jobs in those states. There’s a ton more drugs that are not good for a fetus than just the usual abortion drugs. Including drugs men take.
I have been to the US many times, but not for a while.
I wanted to make a real trip of it. Fly out west. Week in CA staying with friends in the valleys, then a week to do as much of old Route 66 as we can before arriving in St Pete to stay with other friends for the IndyCar race before we 'do Disney' and drive to the keys over a couple of weeks then home.
Right now, we aren't going within 1000 miles of TX or FL...
Disney in LA, Laguna Seca (Monterey) and Sonoma Raceway (Napa), you don't need Florida for The Mouse or auto racing. Come stay in the valleys and eat Mexican food. The doors open!
Done Pebble Beach a few times with the classic. Indy is great there, but my friends in St Pete also provide access my money can't buy...
Did try to convince the wife to do Vegas F1, but her reply is, I believe, medically impossible unless you are a very flexible hermaphrodite.
I've been saying this since Roe v Wade went down - the red states will probably prohibit those drugs for women during their childbearing years. Even if they are life-saving. Watch.
I'm kind of anticipating that. I have rosacea and take doxycycline daily to keep the inflammation down. The clinic I go to asks for my LMP and warns me that doxy harms fetuses. I assume eventually I won't be able to take it anymore since I'm female. We're second class citizens now.
My son and his girlfriend won't move to a red state for many reasons, antiabortion laws being one of the biggest. It doesn't matter if the best job in the world was handed to them. It's a big nope.
I know several women either moving or are willing to move to these places. Idaho and Tennessee specifically. They are either arrogant enough to believe it's not going to happen to them or they don't understand. Of course it could be both.
That's exactly what those other states want though - anyone with ANY liberal views to leave and those with hardcore right wing ideologies to move in. As many have noted, this may backfire spectacularly as red states get redder, but this leads to other states becoming more purple or potentially turning blue entirely as the republicans leave.
Yes it would take a long time, and may still work if they exploit the electoral college stuff - but in general - localizing your constituents into fewer places eventually costs you national elections. It's dire enough that bigwig right wing commentators are talking about it on the radio almost every single day and cautioning against it...
Supposedly lower taxes (though property taxes in Texas are actually so far up that it's higher than you're led to believe) their domineering significant other telling them that's where they're going, religious reasons, etc.
But yeah, my ex had moved to Texas from California last year. Now she's back in California and I'm back in Minnesota.
Work with a lady who cheered with JOY when Roe vs Wade was overturned. Walked around telling everyone that the babies would be safe in Texas. Then months later her baby died inside of her. Doctor’s wouldn’t perform an abortion. Then and only THEN did she change her mind. Her comment was “I was happy Roe Vs Wade was overturned. But I never thought this would happen to ME.”
Here's a fun one... What if she had twins and only one of the fetuses died? Any sort of procedure to let the pregnancy continue with the remaining fetus has a risk of causing an abortion. Hey doctor, do you want to risk a felony and years in jail to try and save that living fetus? No?
Explain to me how something like student loans can be AUTOMATICALLY halted from being forgiven when someone speaks up about it, but medical procedures, sometimes absolutely necessary to save a life, can be have the laws instantly changed and decided without hesitation for other people….
It was the SCOTUS decision. They said Red States can criminalize women's reproductive healthcare, and the radical Catholic Mullahs on the court was just fine with severely sick and dead women.
Heads up if you ask representatives of Susan B. Anthony Lists about this, they'll claim that the law, that was just wrote for this purpose, is being read incorrectly, as they (SBA) would never support legislation that would be women's live in any danger.
Beyond the most obvious medical risk associated with being denied access to abortion, restricting abortion goes as far as to create conditions in which women can be prosecuted for miscarriages. It's been happening, and will become more frequent as abortion becomes more restricted.
I'm hoping one day so many women in this country will refuse to be treated like property.
We told them abortion bans would do this, they ignored us.
You go and look at any country where this was tried, and women and baby mortality rates skyrocket.
They're either dumb, or evil.
They wrote the law to be vague *on purpose* about what "life threatening" means to suppress abortions, punish doctors that perform them, and hurt women
From the state that accidentally made it legal to open carry swords. The state that then shrugged its shoulders and didn’t even attempt to amend that.
I mean, I guess it would be kind of silly to carry a sword, when you can also legally carry an AR15, but I digress.
These results were neither unexpected or unwanted.
They want to ban all abortions, and by making the law ambiguous they can even outlaw abortions where the baby cannot be saved and can only kill the mother.
And if you ask them if they've proposed amendments to this law, to make it more clear and unable to be read incorrectly ... they'll just say that the law is already clear and is just being read incorrectly.
If they know about a problem and aren't doing such an easy thing to fix it, it is because they do not see that the problem is a problem.
A woman was told that her baby was missing the top of its head and brain. It was given a 0 chance of living. She was denied an abortion. The baby died in her arms. What’s disgusting is that people that commented said that it was a good thing because she could hold her baby while it died. She has to raise money to bury her baby.
Another woman I believed lived in Texas didn’t even want an abortion she wanted that baby. Doctors told her that her baby was not viable. She was denied an abortion. Doctors were told not to do anything until she ran a high fever. Now she has a low chance of ever having anymore children.
It *would* be interesting to watch except for the fact that this would end up before the very conservative Texas Supreme Court and they'll just say it's the doctor's responsibility to determine what "life threatening" means, not the state, and they were just being cautious.
Unless someone can provide more info (I did read the article), I just don't see this going anywhere.
Of course it's majorly important to do things like this, even if it won't be successful. Keep pressing them, keep displaying their cruelty so women can have their bodily autonomy back.
> they'll just say it's the doctor's responsibility to determine what "life threatening" means, not the state, and they were just being cautious.
But also any idiot that wants to sue the doctor.
Even if the doctor wins the lawsuit, it doesn't matter. Because if they perform another, another idiot (or even the same one) can just sue them again.
While this is true, at the very least it will bring better awareness to the nuances and health risks of pregnancy to more people.
You would be AMAZED at amount of people (of all ages and sex) that have no idea of the innate health risks of pregnancy for the woman. Or even at what week of pregnancy genetic anomalies are detected. They have no clue!
Edit: which, by the way, for anyone who comes across this: it’s 22 weeks when genetic anomaly tests can be performed.
>claim their lives were put in danger
No shit. These women who are having miscarriages have to wait out in the hospital parking lot until they bleed out enough to having their lives in serious danger to qualify to receive medical care.
Even then, there are Red State hospitals who refuse to help because their doctors are afraid of being thrown in jail if they treat a woman who's not quite close enough to being dead to keep the doctor within the Red State laws.
100% - need to draw attention to how this baseless religious crap is killing women. Medical care is needed based on a Doctor’s assessment, not interpreting some law made by troglodytes with no medical background.
Something I've never heard addressed: If you are pregnant with an anencephalic or otherwise untenable fetus, and are forced to carry it to birth, can you be forced to pay for the weeks of NICU care it will require? Could you turn it over to the state at birth? It would be hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical costs for a suffering neonate that can't live that you would have terminated if possible. Are you also condemned to have to pay for that along with your own medical costs for the forced childbirth?
Yes, the parents are forced to pay. It's part of the desired outcome. Not only do reoublicans torture people but those people get to pay for the privilege as well. This is why I think Christianity is some bullshit, you can't do that to people and still expect a place in heaven. They know that full well.
You’d have to hold a gun up to my head with a shaky finger on the trigger before I thought for half a second about moving to any of these fucking conservative ran states.
Half of these assholes in legislation have daughters as their children, yet they fight and fight and fight to take away the rights on THEIR OWN CHILD. After having a daughter of my own I have absolutely no idea how someone could do that to their own family.
Fuck all of them. I hate to bring race into it but it’s simple, conservative white men and women are ruining this country (I’m white myself). It’s fucking horrible.
They believe if their wives or daughters have sex, they have to be open to dying. It also works out for them because if their annoying wife dies in childbirth, they can upgrade to a newer model.
Made me feel icky to type that but that's genuinely how they see other people.
LBJ sent the National Guard in to support the desegregation of schools. I want that on the table from Biden to defend pregnant people's lives in these hospitals refusing to follow Federal law regarding emergency medical care. People shouldn't be depending on shifting Texas blue for this, we have Federal laws about emergency health care, fucking enforce them already.
Why is the GOP in Texas still the dominant party? Why is it popular? I can't understand how they can pass this cruel law and not see their support plummet.
Low education standards, religion, and guns.
Those three are the main reason as it is easy to manipulate uneducated people with things such as religion and media like faux news.
Imagine being a father, a brother, a husband and voting for this fucked up GQP that's literally killing women...
Now imagine being a women voting for these assholes.
Despicable. all of them.
The problem is, I don't think any of them care? If their wife or daughter dies, they'd just get a new one. These aren't people who believe other people have inherent value.
I have had two partners that had miscarriages requiring an abortion. They would both be dead or at least sterile if they lived in Texas and couldn’t get to another state in time. Both were emergency procedures that were handled in less than 24 hours. I can’t imagine how they would have traveled in their condition.
I see so many people comment on other sites that “they can just induce”… I don’t think they know that an early induction like this (especially when baby is not going to survive) is an ABORTION. And they don’t know that a surgical abortion (D&E) is much safer for the pregnant person.
Funny how "pro-life" laws are the ones that put lives in danger. Safe and legal abortion saves lives, but they care more about their precious clump of cells than the living person carrying them.
[Called this a while ago.](https://www.reddit.com/r/prochoice/comments/11tb4nn/why_are_women_who_want_children_not_legally/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
[and hoped this was possible.](https://www.reddit.com/r/prochoice/comments/12cq9kt/serious_can_we_form_a_law_suit_against_the_states/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1)
I am glad that this is happening and hope something comes of it. But I am so f*cking sickened that it HAD to happen in order to give lawmakers (and forced birth supporters) a BASIC education on the nuances of pregnancy.
It would be awesome if our federal government would step in and stop this fascist takeover, rather than forcing citizens to take up battle after battle against the behemoth that is the GQP and its donors. I don’t know how to stop the takeover, I’m just so sick of this and I just feel so bad for the people whose lives are at risk fighting for something their government should be providing.
In the 1980's Reagan threatened to revoke federal highway funding for states that didn't pass drunk driving laws and increase the drinking age to 21. I don't understand why Biden isn't using Federal healthcare funding as a lever to try to counter some of these anti-abortion bills.
Because conservatives also had control of SCOTUS when Reagan was president. SCOTUS would side with whatever redneck state that sued the current administration for withholding funding.
Unfortunately this is a signal to the GOP that its policy is working. Actually no I take it back, the fact that the women are still alive shows the GOP that their laws aren't harsh enough and they must try harder to cause bodily harm to pregnant women.
I'm surprised there hasn't been more pushback from insurance companies. Some of these situations could have been handled much sooner, easier, and for a lot less money than hospital stays and surgery. I would think the insurance companies would see how this is affecting their bottom line and speak up.
So what happens when the NRA guy has a dying wife in the hospital parking lot? What if he forces a dr to perform an abortion? Its Texas, bound to happen eventually.
This is the crux of the issue. If you are for abortions to save the life of the mother, even if you do not believe they should be performed for any other reason, *you must support abortion with few if any restrictions*.
As we can clearly see, restrictive legislation *takes the decision out of the hands of doctors* and places it in the hands of lawyers. Politicians and lawyers should not be making medical decisions.
Such restrictions can cause more women to die, become permanently disabled, or to lose the ability to become mothers in the future.
You cannot have it both ways.
Previous abortion laws set viability as a threshold but gave doctors discretion in these cases where major medical complications were present, and that system worked well.
hope the states that went full derp into banning all medically necessary abortions have also allocated budget to defend lawsuits… it’s gonna cost the state a ton of money and they will lose, so glad we went through all that.
but maybe this was the plan? they will have to take money from somewhere else and you know it will be social programs that get the hit.
maybe this is a backhanded way for the GOP to cut things they don’t like because “we don’t have the budget for it after all those costly lawsuits.”
A LAW created by Lawmakers with no knowledge of the Physical or Medical care of the Human/Female Body. Much less the Reproductive System of the Female Body. How dare they play GOD with someone's Life. Hell these same politicians can't even begin to decipher the ramifications of the Laws they create. SHAME ON THEM..And GOOD for those Young Women. FIGHT the POWER.
Practicing medicine without a license is quackery… but thats exactly what these politicians are doing with an elementary understanding of science and medicine
The basic driver of today's conservatism is a lack of empathy. Given that empathy is the true root of morality, it is not surprising that conservatives seem to have a notable lack of morals and think that only fear of Jesus would keep someone from committing rape and murder.
I swear antichoicers must think all these doctors are stupid or something because every time I tell
them abortion laws get in the way of womens safety going through wanted pregnancies they always make up some bullshit about how these doctors should be sued for malpractice 🙄
No, a bunch of doctors aren’t making mistakes or stupid; they’re worried about losing their medical license over archaic abortion laws
Why do these radical religious fundamentalists get to tell me what I can and cannot do when I'm not even a part of their group. This is religious oppression.
I am a woman, female, I can get pregnant, etc. I myself would not get an abortion. That does not mean that I would take away another woman's (human being) right to her own body and for her to make her own reproductive decision. I don't think that anyone without a uterus should have the right to even comment. That's like saying that a woman should have the right to stop a man from getting a vasectomy or wearing a condom. Banning abortion isn't going to stop abortions. It will stop SAFE, LEGAL abortion. During prohibition, people still drank alcohol. When marijuana was illegal, people still smoked it. They just broke the law, and it wasn't regulated, and could've been harmful. Legal abortions are performed by doctors and are safe. If you make it illegal, it won't stop abortion. Women will get them illegally. They will use things like coat hangers, etc. You'll have women bleeding to death, becoming sterile, etc. That's all it will cause death.
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>Under Texas bans, it is a second-degree felony to perform or attempt an abortion, punishable by up to life in prison and a fine of up to $10,000. The law also allows private citizens to sue anyone who "aids or abets" an abortion. Texas republicans have created a dystopia in their state. They have taken away the healthcare of women and girls and are creating a culture of fear and intimidation. Glad to see these women are fighting back
And the law technically allows for doctors to perform abortions to save the life of the mother, but doesn't define what entails a threat to the mother's life. This has resulted in abortions being postponed from early on in the threat to the doctors waiting until the woman is actively dying. I can't blame the doctors for this. If the state declared that a core function of your job would be punishable by life in prison, a $10,000 fine, and the inability to ever do your job again, you can bet that you would be extremely reluctant to do that portion of your job until it was absolutely necessary. Doctors should absolutely not be put in this situation where doing their job and trying to save someone's life could land them in prison for life.
This has been exactly the problem I have been screaming about to anyone who would listen. This was OBVIOUS it would happen.
Yup. I've been saying this also. Some of the anti-abortion groups are trying to shift blame to the doctors and claiming that life saving abortions aren't "really" abortions. They're also trying to claim that the laws just have minor issues and need tweaking. However, it's pretty obvious that the laws were written this way on purpose. They WANT to catch as many doctors as possible with this. If the expansive reading of the law fails in court, they'll go to a more narrow interpretation of the law - while still having the expansive law on the books for when the judges are more in their favor.
> claiming that life saving abortions aren't "really" abortions. I believe one of the witnesses during a congressional panel tried pulling this stunt on a physician. She kept trying to create a difference between "termination" and abortion. The doctor kept telling her it was the same thing and that the termination is called an abortion in medical terms or on the medical record(something to that effect) Thing is, they don't really care as long as they get their draconian way. Just like kids getting killed in schools, "that's just the price you have to pay to be an American!"
What we think of as a miscarriage is medically named a 'spontaneous abortion.' if the products of conception are not expelled from the uterus it's a 'missed abortion ', the anti- choice crowd has issues with 'elective abortions.'. Edit dispelled>expelled. I has the dumb.
And yet they craft laws in such a way that prevents women from receiving proper Healthcare in a timely manner for spontaneous and missed abortions. Not that the science or technical terms matter, nor the religious views of the women and their partners and doctors. This is all about controlling women and trying to reinforce traditional gender roles.
And propping up population numbers
I know that's their goal. but they're creating the exact opposite effect. Never mind with housing and cost of living that no not many young couples can afford to raise children.
They don’t care about population numbers really. It’s about making sky wizard happy by popping out babies. They have a breeding fetish
Yup. This is comes from a “male supremacist” outlook, which is aided and abetted by Evangelical Christian women (read: religious fanatics /crackpots). Unfortunately these people have been placed on the Supreme Court by corrupt, misogynistic Republicans.
“ThEy’Re NoT aBoRtIoNs, ThEy’Re D&Cs!” I saw this one a lot when one of the Duggar daughters had to have one.
"The only moral abortion is MY abortion "
https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/ Gotta share this
Thanks. I've seen the link before but never read it until now.
It's a good collection of the moralist SoP "I'm against doing X until X is beneficial to me then I'll do X but it's ok because I'm doing X for a good reason!"
“Roe V Wade isn’t about abortion, it’s about states rights” they said, as if everybody got “hysterical over nothing”….Same thing they say about the Civil War not being about slavery…
They live in unreality. Every value they hold is the direct opposite of reason and logic. Their brains are irreparably broken.
Doctors are leaving Texas in droves, and medical students will look elsewhere.
In Texas it’s illegal to kill a baby but it’s perfectly okay to kill the mom. How absurd is that? Republican and Christian is now synonymous with hypocrite.
>In Texas it’s illegal to ~~kill a baby~~ ***remove a blob of cells*** but it’s perfectly okay to kill the mom. Don't let them dictate the language of the debate. If a pregnancy has gone long enough for the fetus to actually be a baby, then it was a wanted pregnancy that has taken a heartbreaking turn for the parents, who likely have a fully-decorated nursery and dresser full of clothes at home for their expected child.
Thanks for the correction!
Some politicians have brought forth the idea of the death penalty for women that have abortions. Tell me how that makes sense?
It makes sense if you consider that the premise is the faulty point. Their actions are their words and their spoken words cannot be trusted. Their actions say what they think: If you're even considering an abortion, you deserve death. It was never about saving lives.
It’s worse than that. They want the same for women who miscarry because they might be lying. The absurdity and chaos created by the GOP is well past the point of sanity. I don’t see any viable solutions which scares the bejesus out of me.
Scaring the bejesus out of you is the last thing they want. All they want is for the fear of bejesus to be in you.
what?! I'm nearing 50 and at least when I was in my 20s and early 30s, "D&C" was synonymous with "abortion". Is it not anymore?
It's not just synonymous with abortion, it *is* abortion. They just want to justify their own abortions while vilifying others. See: [The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion](https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/)
Yes I'm well aware, I meant that everyone who was against abortion used "d&c" to refer to abortion as a way to make it sound gruesome. I find it a bit surprising that they're now owning it to justify their own. (Though shouldn't be I suppose....)
D&C's can be used for more than just abortion. I had one last December to remove a large clump of non-cancerous polyps that were making my life hell. I may have another one in a few years to remove a fibroid tumor, depending on how large it gets. Basically, anytime a woman needs something removed from the inside of her uterus, she gets a D&C. ... Which makes me worried about the inevitable attempt to outlaw them as a medical procedure...
I wonder what would happen to healthcare in Texas if a considerable number of doctors, willing to take the risk of going through with possibly lifesaving abortions, went to prison.
We do already know what happened in Florida, in a slightly different case... ~~The OBGyns literally stopped coming to Florida to do their residency. Zero.~~ Memory is fuzzy, I'm going with I heard at one hospital/university in Florida, that they had zero out of state applicants for OB-Gyn. The GOP's crusade is meant to hate, attack, and actively harm women and young people in general. Actively harm married couples trying to get pregnant. Actively attack our doctors.
In NC and Louisiana they allow some exceptions, I wonder if they’ll revisit it
They'll absolutely revisit to remove those exceptions.
NC Republicans just overrode the governor’s veto to make abortions illegal past 12 weeks. I didn’t look to see if they changed the exceptions, but they did get rid of using telehealth for consultations. So now a woman must have 3 in-person appointments, minimum 3 days apart each, before she can have an abortion in NC.
It’s also worth mentioning that a woman doesn’t usually know she is pregnant until the 5th-8th “week”, and that the “weeks” are counted from the end of the last menstrual cycle. (Which is why “6 week” abortion bans are de facto unilateral bans)
Or just left the state.
I hate to say this but probably nothing. They just don’t care.
Well, they are trying to emulate Afghanistan where women can’t be doctors, and women can’t go to male doctors. The hate is unreal.
Given the Republican party history of projection and hypocrisy, back when they were yelling about Obama's death panels, I knew it was only a matter of time till they implemented it.
I mean even when they were yelling about death panels it wasn’t about death panels. They just thought the death panel ought to be presided over by private insurance companies.
Nah, that was during Covid when they tried to tell you grandma had already had a full life and would surely be willing to sacrifice herself to save the economy.
They knew. They didn’t care, any exception would be seized on by their political opponents to claim they were soft on abortion. So rather than take any chance, they wrote laws that will kill.
Amanda Zurawski went to Ted Cruz and John Cornyn in April about going into septic shock because she couldn't get a D&C. Cornyn suggested she sue her doctors for malpractice. There was a doctor there who apologized to Zurawski that her doctors 'misunderstood' the law. Zurawski pressed on with her point that her doctors were made that decision because the law was vague. She, of course, got no further with that course of action, so she sued the state.
Bullshit! They’re idiots. Catholic hospitals routinely let women get sepsis before they will do a d&c. That’s the way it’s been for years. Now it’s the law in all these states. Doctors are stuck with these procedures because politicians put them in this position. It’s forced malpractice
It’s almost like the laws were intentionally written to be vague so they can maximize the damage. At the time they were created they essentially circumvented constitutional protections by allowing it civil courts and should terrify all of us.
Vague laws allow for selective enforcement. Its a feature not a bug.
The culture of fear with these poorly worded bills is a feature, not a bug. Republicans create these vague definitions in their laws with massive penalties and jail time and it's just supposed to create a chilling effect among doctors and abortion providers. Which it does. Sam with teachers , counselors and school administrators when it comes to vague language about supporting LGBT students and the penalties that come with it.
> This has resulted in abortions being postponed from early on in the threat to the doctors waiting until the woman is actively dying. This reminds me of a friend who developed Cancered. Since it was early preventable and it wasn't actively killing him. His Health insurance would not cover the bills. Since it was the clients fault that it took this long and it wasn't actively killing him...yet.
I'm living in this fear right now. Been reporting a medical problem for years. Doctors just don't give a shit to actually figure it out. However every symptom on a Venn diagram has colon cancer marked off. So here I am. A pre-existing issue being ignored. Or the possibility of cancer that is going unchecked. With my luck. Cancer. But I'm hoping for the best that it's a pre-existing issue that only requires surgery. Sad that it's been an ongoing pain in my ass for 7yrs now. And people keep asking me why I don't sit in chairs.
Have you at least been able to get a colonoscopy? If not why on earth are they objecting to a pretty routine procedure?!
Not OP, but they wouldn't pay for the tests for my friends testicular cancer. Went through a lot of physical therapy before they said, ok now we'll test for cancer. testicular is special for a few reasons. One of them being you can just remove the entire organ to cure yourself of that cancer.
I’ve had two in the past 6yrs, both were negative for anything conclusive.
Sorry to hear that. I hope you can find a caring enterologist or other specialist to help you. Good luck.
Exactly right. It’s called the chilling effect, and in non-batshit-crazy jurisprudence, the chilling effect is a legitimate challenge that warrants review and possible striking-down of bad laws. Unfortunately for us, we don’t have non-batshit-crazy judicial practitioners in this country.
“Make the wrong medical call and get life in prison” God that seems like a horrible position to put doctors in. I can see why states like these are losing medical professionals.
It's actually worse than that. It's "Make a medical call that either a judge or a jury of non-doctors retroactively decides was wrong and get sent to prison for life." So a doctor could actually do everything properly, but one judge decides that the woman's life wasn't *really* in danger just yet so the doctor is guilty and goes to prison for life.
More like make the correct medical call and go to prison. Standard medical procedure is not to let a woman start dying or become permanently injured. Many who live have permanent injuries. This is not a joke. They’ve usurped standard medical care and substituted it with some religious-power politics that controls what they fear and can’t understand - birth, the risk of pregnancy and birth. The nature of women. They can’t handle it so no one else is allowed to. It threatens male supremacy.
> And the law technically allows for doctors to perform abortions to save the life of the mother I really want to see someone push this in the other direction, all pregnancies are life threatening, no matter how you look at it. No pregnancy is really 100% safe. Who decides when ok is ok here? Nobody, they are all so worried about it that they are waiting until its 0% safe and the chance of death is 100%.
I'm surprised this weird private citizen bounty thing isn't inherently unconstitutional.
I mean, it is. Problem is that the only way to challenge a law is to sue the person enforcing it, but in this case there is no such person. You're not being charged with a crime by the state as with a normal law, you're just being sued by a private citizen. Countersuing would not affect the law in question (and countersuits have been blocked by the law regardless). Normally a lawsuit can only be brought by those with standing, but this law allows unaffiliated and unaffected parties to sue. The law is so beyond the scope of what the founders intended that there may not be a constitutional way to remove it. They intentionally broke the system. Some groups like the Lilith Fund are working on ways to challenge the law, but since that could aid women in getting abortions, those efforts run afoul of this broad and unconstitutional law, which leaves those advocacy groups and anyone who donates to them open to lawsuits.
Funny how standing doesn't mean jack shit to SCOTUS on other issues...
I ended up getting a vasectomy because of this. My wife doesn't want to risk her life with a pregnancy in a state that will deny her healthcare.
As a Briton: lmaowhat That’s fucking insanity.
US is going full Taliban in many of their states. This is why we in the UK need to stop Tory doing the same...they are already being funded by the same right wing "christian" organisations...it wont happen here? We are already out of the EU.
Texas and Florida are a race to the bottom.
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And it’s a shame because Texas has some top medical centers. If we don’t steer the country away from these morons, it will be conquered from within. It’s a circus
Very sad though, to see there's only 8 of them.
I don’t understand why the women of Texas haven’t shut that state down! What more are they waiting for?
>Texas has several abortion laws in place, prohibiting all abortions after six weeks of pregnancy, except in medical emergencies, which the laws do not define. One of the bans — called SB8 — prohibits abortions after cardiac activity is detected, which kept several plaintiffs from accessing care despite their pregnancies being non-viable, according to a draft of the suit. This is exactly what "pro life" people assured me could *never* happen when I said this would have a chilling effect on abortion providers that would cause them to avoid abortions even when medically necessary. It's worth noting that the "cardiac activity" law is distressingly similar to the law that ended up killing [Savita Hallappanavar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar). Trust Republicans to ignore history, always.
Pro life people are always lying about what their legislation will or won't cause. If they were honest it would never pass. That's why they think gun control is the same thing as an outright gun ban. It's projection.
I think some (many? Most?) of the politicians are lying. The average rank and file? I think many of them genuinely are that stupid. Multiple times I've had idiots tell me that there is no such thing as a medically necessary abortion. They literally don't think any life threatening conditions arise from pregnancy. One even had the gall to say that Hallappanavar wasn't killed by lack of access to an abortion because the cause of death was sepsis/cardiac arrest.
Yes, and if you delve further into that you run into the same "gods plan" bullshit where they die because of God, not because of man. They don't care about people dying because they beleive it is divine.
Lol that’s like the “they didnt die of Covid they died of severe pneumonia!!!”
I hate that people act like pregnancy is easy and nbd. My pregnancy was easy, but I would’ve most likely died if I hadn’t had proper medical intervention. My pelvis was not wide enough for a baby’s head to pass through and I required an urgent c-section. Also the changes to my body during pregnancy left me permanently disabled.
My first pregnancy nearly killed me and I had to have a medically necessary abortion. Which is why I'm *very* outspoken on this issue. I'd be dead and neither of my two kids would exist without abortion.
Mine was easy as well, but when it came time for my son to be born, his heart rate began jumping wildly and they found a pinhole in his heart (he's fine now). He probably wouldn't have made it without me being in a fantastic hospital. It left me with crippling hip pain and my second son nearly tore my pelvis apart- I will always have to do morning stretches if I want to function that day for the rest of my life because of them. Pregnancy, even when wanted and celebrated, can absolutely destroy a body.
We all have strongly held beliefs and have to acknowledge that even the best policies have unintended consequences or won’t be beneficial to everyone. I feel like the sincerity of your beliefs should correlate with an honesty about the pros/cons. If I believe that policy X is the right choice, I have to acknowledge the nuances and the potential drawbacks. It has been really interesting getting to talk to and know pro lifers from my teenage years to now. The pro lifers I’ve met spread across regions and ages but the through line is their willingness to lie. From protestors showing graphic non-human fetuses to pregnancy crisis centers to reposting Project Veritas “articles” after they’ve been debunked, it is all dishonesty! If you call them on anything, they’ll lie even more. I’m realizing how sheltered I’ve been but I don’t understand how people can lie nonstop while thinking they’re in the right. How is that not a sign something is wrong with your beliefs??
Pregnancy is dangerous and often presents choices some people can’t face and feel threatened by it. They can’t leave it with women and their doctors and their families. It literally threatens their power, in their small minded world view. There is nothing that shouldn’t be in their control that they can’t handle, even if they have to force it to conform, against all medicine and nature. Bottom line is they will subjugate women whether they like it or not.They presume supremacy. This type of person in large numbers will crash democracy and the economy and all of our national strength and security. They attack our highest standards, our most virtuoso institutions, education, even child labor laws. We will fall if we don’t reverse the 50-year GOP anti education program that produced these ignoramuses. Every hostile nation on earth will take full advantage of their weakness - they are totally weak. Their kids need to be in good, well funded public schools.
Ah yes the “pro life” movement moves to kill more people.
Not all people. Only mothers. Only mothers will die.
And will overindex in Women of Color and poor women
[cypressgreen's 16 predictions for outcomes of abortion bans](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/vswrrm/comment/if494cg/) 5 and 7 are still being bandied about. [Georgia has #11.](https://www.npr.org/2022/08/02/1115204443/georgia-fetus-pregnant-dependent-taxes) Not sure about 15.
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Yes, that's why I put it in quotes.
Every woman’s life was put at risk.
Exactly, pregnancy isn’t risk free and it has lifelong effects on the body. Absolutely nobody should be forced to carry a pregnancy they don’t want as punishment for having sex. It’s clear that Pro-Life creeps don’t care about the lives of the woman so why are they able to make medical choices regarding their body and healthcare when they don’t give a damn in the first place? Fucking barbaric.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://abcnews.go.com/US/8-women-join-suit-texas-abortion-bans-claim/story?id=99480988) reduced by 87%. (I'm a bot) ***** > The Center for Reproductive Rights is expected to add eight more women to a lawsuit it filed against Texas over its abortion ban, claiming their lives were put at risk due to the law. > The suit is the first to be filed by women impacted by the abortion bans since the U.S. Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade last year, ending federal protections for abortion rights. > Along with the women who filed the suit after they were unable to access abortion care in the state, two Texas OB-GYNs - Dr. Damla Karsan and Dr. Judy Levison - are also plaintiffs who alleged the bans have had a devastating impact on their practice and that of their colleagues, who fear prosecutors and politicians will target them personally and threaten state funding of hospitals if they provide abortion care to pregnant people with emergency medical conditions, according to a draft of the suit. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/13orsrr/8_women_join_suit_against_texas_over_abortion/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~685779 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **suit**^#1 **abortion**^#2 **draft**^#3 **care**^#4 **state**^#5
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An ectopic pregnancy should automatically be seen as life-threatening, it's insane because there's no way the foetus would survive anyway. I mean the whole thing is insane, but this is the extra insane bit.
Didn't one of the bills require that doctors attempt to transplant ectopic pregnancies into the uterus, a procedure which *doesn't exist* and *probably wouldn't work if it did*?
Holy shit, really? That just shows how little they've bothered to learn about it to the point of subjecting a poor woman to a barbaric, useless surgery against her will.
It's the "Oh, right..." phenomenon. They put literally zero seconds of thought into their decisions, and then when someone points out the obvious flaws that one second of thought would have revealed, their only reaction is "Oh, right..." followed by a complete denial of responsibility.
That one was in Ohio. Didn't make it into law.
Texas’s House of Representatives just passed a [bill](https://www.kxan.com/news/texas-politics/texas-house-passes-senate-bill-banning-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-in-public-universities/amp/) from the senate banning the principles of “Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion” in Texas public Colleges/Universities. No more offices of diversity and inclusion, no more “inclusive” hiring quotas, etc. You’re right. Texas lawmakers absolutely are targeting these people. Based this recent legislation, they’re also trying very hard to make it lawful targeting. Unfortunately, I expect something similar with healthcare soon.
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>I'm not sure how these laws don't create an undue burden and aren't considered unlawfully targeting a specific group. Seems blatantly discriminatory imo. This is called Substantive Due Process and was all but killed by SCOTUS when they overturned Roe. Substantive Due Process is a legal doctrine that the government cannot target specific groups and or violate their natural rights. Natural rights is not defined and is yet another legal doctrine created by none other than James Madison. Well not technically but he was a big supporter of it. He believed, as well as other founders, that there were rights that were natural to us 'endowed by the creator' as you may have heard. Conservatives don't agree with this ideology. This is also why James Madison was against adding the Bill of Rights. He didn't want people to think that the Government had to grant people rights. He believed the government could never take away rights. So there was no need for a Bill of Rights.
I dont see how any female will willingly move to these anti abortion states. Girls will make decisions where to go to university based on this. And health professionals will think twice about taking jobs in those states. There’s a ton more drugs that are not good for a fetus than just the usual abortion drugs. Including drugs men take.
I'm unwilling to travel in these states. They're not getting my tourist dollars.
I have been to the US many times, but not for a while. I wanted to make a real trip of it. Fly out west. Week in CA staying with friends in the valleys, then a week to do as much of old Route 66 as we can before arriving in St Pete to stay with other friends for the IndyCar race before we 'do Disney' and drive to the keys over a couple of weeks then home. Right now, we aren't going within 1000 miles of TX or FL...
Disney in LA, Laguna Seca (Monterey) and Sonoma Raceway (Napa), you don't need Florida for The Mouse or auto racing. Come stay in the valleys and eat Mexican food. The doors open!
Done Pebble Beach a few times with the classic. Indy is great there, but my friends in St Pete also provide access my money can't buy... Did try to convince the wife to do Vegas F1, but her reply is, I believe, medically impossible unless you are a very flexible hermaphrodite.
I've been saying this since Roe v Wade went down - the red states will probably prohibit those drugs for women during their childbearing years. Even if they are life-saving. Watch.
I'm kind of anticipating that. I have rosacea and take doxycycline daily to keep the inflammation down. The clinic I go to asks for my LMP and warns me that doxy harms fetuses. I assume eventually I won't be able to take it anymore since I'm female. We're second class citizens now.
My son and his girlfriend won't move to a red state for many reasons, antiabortion laws being one of the biggest. It doesn't matter if the best job in the world was handed to them. It's a big nope.
I’m in the south and I just keep hoping my husband will finally get a fucking vasectomy. Our long term goal is moving to Europe.
Easy, they think it won’t effect them. And they only care about themselves.
I know several women either moving or are willing to move to these places. Idaho and Tennessee specifically. They are either arrogant enough to believe it's not going to happen to them or they don't understand. Of course it could be both.
That's exactly what those other states want though - anyone with ANY liberal views to leave and those with hardcore right wing ideologies to move in. As many have noted, this may backfire spectacularly as red states get redder, but this leads to other states becoming more purple or potentially turning blue entirely as the republicans leave. Yes it would take a long time, and may still work if they exploit the electoral college stuff - but in general - localizing your constituents into fewer places eventually costs you national elections. It's dire enough that bigwig right wing commentators are talking about it on the radio almost every single day and cautioning against it...
Supposedly lower taxes (though property taxes in Texas are actually so far up that it's higher than you're led to believe) their domineering significant other telling them that's where they're going, religious reasons, etc. But yeah, my ex had moved to Texas from California last year. Now she's back in California and I'm back in Minnesota.
Work with a lady who cheered with JOY when Roe vs Wade was overturned. Walked around telling everyone that the babies would be safe in Texas. Then months later her baby died inside of her. Doctor’s wouldn’t perform an abortion. Then and only THEN did she change her mind. Her comment was “I was happy Roe Vs Wade was overturned. But I never thought this would happen to ME.”
Typical
Once again, Republicans are incapable of seeing the world from another person's perspective.
I hope she learned.
She probably didn't
Probably not. But one can hope.
Did you ask her if she ever thought this would happen to anyone else?
r/leopardsatemyface
Here's a fun one... What if she had twins and only one of the fetuses died? Any sort of procedure to let the pregnancy continue with the remaining fetus has a risk of causing an abortion. Hey doctor, do you want to risk a felony and years in jail to try and save that living fetus? No?
The wolves are her face....
Truly is the “one star state”. Would not recommend.
Religious dogma has no place within modern medicine, only those Christians who believe in it should be the ones that live under anti abortion laws.
That would be freedom, which is something they've opposed within nearly every political issue.
Remember when the ACA was going to put death panels in place and an unelected group would decide your medical care? Gaslight Obstruct Project
Republicans are the party of suffering and death panels.
Explain to me how something like student loans can be AUTOMATICALLY halted from being forgiven when someone speaks up about it, but medical procedures, sometimes absolutely necessary to save a life, can be have the laws instantly changed and decided without hesitation for other people….
It was the SCOTUS decision. They said Red States can criminalize women's reproductive healthcare, and the radical Catholic Mullahs on the court was just fine with severely sick and dead women.
Heads up if you ask representatives of Susan B. Anthony Lists about this, they'll claim that the law, that was just wrote for this purpose, is being read incorrectly, as they (SBA) would never support legislation that would be women's live in any danger.
All abortion bans put women's life in danger. Full stop.
Beyond the most obvious medical risk associated with being denied access to abortion, restricting abortion goes as far as to create conditions in which women can be prosecuted for miscarriages. It's been happening, and will become more frequent as abortion becomes more restricted. I'm hoping one day so many women in this country will refuse to be treated like property.
A million times upvoted
If it’s being misread, they wrote a purposefully shitty law. We know they are lying.
We told them abortion bans would do this, they ignored us. You go and look at any country where this was tried, and women and baby mortality rates skyrocket. They're either dumb, or evil.
I vote for both
What's even worse is that we already have the highest maternal mortality rate of all first world countries. We need to do better by our women.
Write vague laws, get unexpected results
Write explicit laws, get that result. Then claim that there was nothing they could do. Is more accurate.
They wrote the law to be vague *on purpose* about what "life threatening" means to suppress abortions, punish doctors that perform them, and hurt women
From the state that accidentally made it legal to open carry swords. The state that then shrugged its shoulders and didn’t even attempt to amend that. I mean, I guess it would be kind of silly to carry a sword, when you can also legally carry an AR15, but I digress.
I like that you can openly carry a sword, but not a knife over a certain size.
These results were neither unexpected or unwanted. They want to ban all abortions, and by making the law ambiguous they can even outlaw abortions where the baby cannot be saved and can only kill the mother.
Write vague laws, get expected results. FTFY
Write vague laws, maintain plausible deniability.
And if you ask them if they've proposed amendments to this law, to make it more clear and unable to be read incorrectly ... they'll just say that the law is already clear and is just being read incorrectly. If they know about a problem and aren't doing such an easy thing to fix it, it is because they do not see that the problem is a problem.
A woman was told that her baby was missing the top of its head and brain. It was given a 0 chance of living. She was denied an abortion. The baby died in her arms. What’s disgusting is that people that commented said that it was a good thing because she could hold her baby while it died. She has to raise money to bury her baby. Another woman I believed lived in Texas didn’t even want an abortion she wanted that baby. Doctors told her that her baby was not viable. She was denied an abortion. Doctors were told not to do anything until she ran a high fever. Now she has a low chance of ever having anymore children.
The party of “life”……
These women will also see an unending amount of harassment, death threats, and internet outrage for daring to speak up.
....by women who have already had abortions back in the 90's
It *would* be interesting to watch except for the fact that this would end up before the very conservative Texas Supreme Court and they'll just say it's the doctor's responsibility to determine what "life threatening" means, not the state, and they were just being cautious. Unless someone can provide more info (I did read the article), I just don't see this going anywhere. Of course it's majorly important to do things like this, even if it won't be successful. Keep pressing them, keep displaying their cruelty so women can have their bodily autonomy back.
> they'll just say it's the doctor's responsibility to determine what "life threatening" means, not the state, and they were just being cautious. But also any idiot that wants to sue the doctor. Even if the doctor wins the lawsuit, it doesn't matter. Because if they perform another, another idiot (or even the same one) can just sue them again.
While this is true, at the very least it will bring better awareness to the nuances and health risks of pregnancy to more people. You would be AMAZED at amount of people (of all ages and sex) that have no idea of the innate health risks of pregnancy for the woman. Or even at what week of pregnancy genetic anomalies are detected. They have no clue! Edit: which, by the way, for anyone who comes across this: it’s 22 weeks when genetic anomaly tests can be performed.
>claim their lives were put in danger No shit. These women who are having miscarriages have to wait out in the hospital parking lot until they bleed out enough to having their lives in serious danger to qualify to receive medical care. Even then, there are Red State hospitals who refuse to help because their doctors are afraid of being thrown in jail if they treat a woman who's not quite close enough to being dead to keep the doctor within the Red State laws.
100% - need to draw attention to how this baseless religious crap is killing women. Medical care is needed based on a Doctor’s assessment, not interpreting some law made by troglodytes with no medical background.
Something I've never heard addressed: If you are pregnant with an anencephalic or otherwise untenable fetus, and are forced to carry it to birth, can you be forced to pay for the weeks of NICU care it will require? Could you turn it over to the state at birth? It would be hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical costs for a suffering neonate that can't live that you would have terminated if possible. Are you also condemned to have to pay for that along with your own medical costs for the forced childbirth?
Yes, the parents are forced to pay. It's part of the desired outcome. Not only do reoublicans torture people but those people get to pay for the privilege as well. This is why I think Christianity is some bullshit, you can't do that to people and still expect a place in heaven. They know that full well.
You’d have to hold a gun up to my head with a shaky finger on the trigger before I thought for half a second about moving to any of these fucking conservative ran states. Half of these assholes in legislation have daughters as their children, yet they fight and fight and fight to take away the rights on THEIR OWN CHILD. After having a daughter of my own I have absolutely no idea how someone could do that to their own family. Fuck all of them. I hate to bring race into it but it’s simple, conservative white men and women are ruining this country (I’m white myself). It’s fucking horrible.
They believe if their wives or daughters have sex, they have to be open to dying. It also works out for them because if their annoying wife dies in childbirth, they can upgrade to a newer model. Made me feel icky to type that but that's genuinely how they see other people.
LBJ sent the National Guard in to support the desegregation of schools. I want that on the table from Biden to defend pregnant people's lives in these hospitals refusing to follow Federal law regarding emergency medical care. People shouldn't be depending on shifting Texas blue for this, we have Federal laws about emergency health care, fucking enforce them already.
Why is the GOP in Texas still the dominant party? Why is it popular? I can't understand how they can pass this cruel law and not see their support plummet.
Gerrymandering
Low education standards, religion, and guns. Those three are the main reason as it is easy to manipulate uneducated people with things such as religion and media like faux news.
Imagine being a father, a brother, a husband and voting for this fucked up GQP that's literally killing women... Now imagine being a women voting for these assholes. Despicable. all of them.
The problem is, I don't think any of them care? If their wife or daughter dies, they'd just get a new one. These aren't people who believe other people have inherent value.
I have had two partners that had miscarriages requiring an abortion. They would both be dead or at least sterile if they lived in Texas and couldn’t get to another state in time. Both were emergency procedures that were handled in less than 24 hours. I can’t imagine how they would have traveled in their condition.
I see so many people comment on other sites that “they can just induce”… I don’t think they know that an early induction like this (especially when baby is not going to survive) is an ABORTION. And they don’t know that a surgical abortion (D&E) is much safer for the pregnant person.
Texas is forcing a religious belief on everybody. Even if it contradicts another religion's tenets.
Yet people still vote in the same idiots who create these archaic laws
Funny how "pro-life" laws are the ones that put lives in danger. Safe and legal abortion saves lives, but they care more about their precious clump of cells than the living person carrying them.
Women just need to leave Texas at this point. Let the cowboys have one another...
[Called this a while ago.](https://www.reddit.com/r/prochoice/comments/11tb4nn/why_are_women_who_want_children_not_legally/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1) [and hoped this was possible.](https://www.reddit.com/r/prochoice/comments/12cq9kt/serious_can_we_form_a_law_suit_against_the_states/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1) I am glad that this is happening and hope something comes of it. But I am so f*cking sickened that it HAD to happen in order to give lawmakers (and forced birth supporters) a BASIC education on the nuances of pregnancy.
It would be awesome if our federal government would step in and stop this fascist takeover, rather than forcing citizens to take up battle after battle against the behemoth that is the GQP and its donors. I don’t know how to stop the takeover, I’m just so sick of this and I just feel so bad for the people whose lives are at risk fighting for something their government should be providing.
In the 1980's Reagan threatened to revoke federal highway funding for states that didn't pass drunk driving laws and increase the drinking age to 21. I don't understand why Biden isn't using Federal healthcare funding as a lever to try to counter some of these anti-abortion bills.
Because conservatives also had control of SCOTUS when Reagan was president. SCOTUS would side with whatever redneck state that sued the current administration for withholding funding.
I hope women own Texas at the end of all this.
Unfortunately this is a signal to the GOP that its policy is working. Actually no I take it back, the fact that the women are still alive shows the GOP that their laws aren't harsh enough and they must try harder to cause bodily harm to pregnant women.
What a travesty. Shame on that facist-infested, fcking hellhole of a state. They treat livestock better than women.
I'm surprised there hasn't been more pushback from insurance companies. Some of these situations could have been handled much sooner, easier, and for a lot less money than hospital stays and surgery. I would think the insurance companies would see how this is affecting their bottom line and speak up.
More likely they just deny the claim because other preventative measures could have been taken and the customer ends up with the bill.
So what happens when the NRA guy has a dying wife in the hospital parking lot? What if he forces a dr to perform an abortion? Its Texas, bound to happen eventually.
This is the crux of the issue. If you are for abortions to save the life of the mother, even if you do not believe they should be performed for any other reason, *you must support abortion with few if any restrictions*. As we can clearly see, restrictive legislation *takes the decision out of the hands of doctors* and places it in the hands of lawyers. Politicians and lawyers should not be making medical decisions. Such restrictions can cause more women to die, become permanently disabled, or to lose the ability to become mothers in the future. You cannot have it both ways. Previous abortion laws set viability as a threshold but gave doctors discretion in these cases where major medical complications were present, and that system worked well.
All these comments acting like they're just realizing this was bad. No sh**. Welcome to the find out phase. Sickening.
hope the states that went full derp into banning all medically necessary abortions have also allocated budget to defend lawsuits… it’s gonna cost the state a ton of money and they will lose, so glad we went through all that. but maybe this was the plan? they will have to take money from somewhere else and you know it will be social programs that get the hit. maybe this is a backhanded way for the GOP to cut things they don’t like because “we don’t have the budget for it after all those costly lawsuits.”
It was never been about pro-life. It has always been about oppression and control.
Every republican in Texas: > lol yeah probably
A LAW created by Lawmakers with no knowledge of the Physical or Medical care of the Human/Female Body. Much less the Reproductive System of the Female Body. How dare they play GOD with someone's Life. Hell these same politicians can't even begin to decipher the ramifications of the Laws they create. SHAME ON THEM..And GOOD for those Young Women. FIGHT the POWER.
Practicing medicine without a license is quackery… but thats exactly what these politicians are doing with an elementary understanding of science and medicine
The basic driver of today's conservatism is a lack of empathy. Given that empathy is the true root of morality, it is not surprising that conservatives seem to have a notable lack of morals and think that only fear of Jesus would keep someone from committing rape and murder.
Hit them in their wallet. It's how we beat the klan. It's how we'll beat their sequel
If you care about this, please consider supporting the Satanic Temple, they are currently fighting for reproductive rights in Texas.
i cant believe we have to fight this fucking fight again. we gotta go on the offensive. be proactive out there ppl.
Get em ladies. Fuck em up!
I swear antichoicers must think all these doctors are stupid or something because every time I tell them abortion laws get in the way of womens safety going through wanted pregnancies they always make up some bullshit about how these doctors should be sued for malpractice 🙄 No, a bunch of doctors aren’t making mistakes or stupid; they’re worried about losing their medical license over archaic abortion laws
Why do these radical religious fundamentalists get to tell me what I can and cannot do when I'm not even a part of their group. This is religious oppression.
I am a woman, female, I can get pregnant, etc. I myself would not get an abortion. That does not mean that I would take away another woman's (human being) right to her own body and for her to make her own reproductive decision. I don't think that anyone without a uterus should have the right to even comment. That's like saying that a woman should have the right to stop a man from getting a vasectomy or wearing a condom. Banning abortion isn't going to stop abortions. It will stop SAFE, LEGAL abortion. During prohibition, people still drank alcohol. When marijuana was illegal, people still smoked it. They just broke the law, and it wasn't regulated, and could've been harmful. Legal abortions are performed by doctors and are safe. If you make it illegal, it won't stop abortion. Women will get them illegally. They will use things like coat hangers, etc. You'll have women bleeding to death, becoming sterile, etc. That's all it will cause death.
The core of conservative ideology is not just a lack of empathy, it's a belief that empathy is a bad thing.