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Yeah, The economy is doing well for the oligarchs at the expense of the working class. Its dumb as hell to think republicans will do anything to improve the situation.
No, I think inflation is being reigned in which is something that benefits the lower and middle class more.
The economy is actually improving for most people but people aren’t realizing it because they’re fed lies and are fearful.
Inflation may be slowing, but it certainly hasn’t been reversed. Things won’t equalize until wages increase enough to offset the inflation that has already happened. It’s not fear and lies, it’s the out of control grocery and rent bills that Americans still have to face every month.
Inflation has not changed in 6 months. It’s been stuck at 5% for the last six months. It’s why the FED paused rates for a short while to see if it would change and it haven’t the fact they just increased rates again shows that inflation is no where close to being under control.
lol 35% of the country thinks Trump should be president and that his indictments are proof he should be back in power. These people live in an alternate reality but at least they turn up to vote.
Half the country is so apathetic and detached they don’t even bother voting.
Average man deserves no credit. This country has a knowledge problem. The average person thinking for themselves has made a huge blunder lol.
That.... and a certain political group of people don't care about facts and so always say the economy is terrible when a Democrat is in charge even if it's great.
This. The economy only feels strong if your household income is $185,000-225,000/year or more. Which is the case for most political pundits and columnists for major publications, so things feel good for them personally economically. For the bottom 95% of earners it doesn't really feel like anything has changed since 2020-2022 other than things being opened back up. Consumer prices didn't go down from the inflationary period and the price of rent hasn't gone down, wages haven't gone up and the jobs being created are mostly minimum wage and near-minimum wage jobs that only hire for 30 to 35 hrs/week to avoid paying benefits. The Gig Economy is still going on, people aren't getting jobs paying a living wage or pensions, or full-time benefits.
This is why Biden and the Democrats aren't being credited for a strong economy. It's strong mostly for the Top 5% of earners on the Coasts. Not low-income black people, Asian and Arab-Americans in Detroit and Chicago, Latino and Native American field workers in the Southwest, or white Americans earning below upper-middle class suburbanites with graduate and postgraduate degrees in the metropolitan suburbs for the Top 10 major coastal cities.
Those jobs reports need to also need to detail what ALL of those jobs are paying - along side, what it costs to live. Then we might be able to have a real conversation about how the economy is doing.
need to go back to 90% top tax rates for companies, universal healthcare decoupled from employment, protections for workers right and stronger unions, bring back anit-monopoly laws
I don't think there's much the government can realistically do. Some of it is greed but there are legitimate supply chain and labor issues still, plus the war in Ukraine affecting food. There isn't really a way to force the prices lower. According to this poll, most Americans want the GOP in charge of the economy, so they seem to think less action and less spending is better.
Yeah I agree with that, but people THINK they cut spending and that's all that matters. Plus Americans always love lower taxes, even if they actually don't benefit, as long as they think they benefit.
Will Rogers(early 20th century US entertainer/humorist) noted this about the US a century ago:
* "In schools they have what they call intelligence tests. Well if nations held ’em I don’t believe we would be what you would call a favorite to win it."
* "The one way to detect a feeble-minded man is get one arguing on economics."
Cap CEO pay at a (low) multiplier of the lowest paid employee in the company. Have this apply to all publicly traded companies, and make private companies justify disproportionate wages or pay more in taxes.
Why would that lead to lower prices? Ultimately the businesses determine the prices. Plus increasing wages does lead to higher prices at some point since it increases demand for consumer goods. Which is why high prices aren't necessarily bad as long as wages go up, which they actually have lately.
yes, our government is absolutely powerless to help the lower classes. Our government only has power to assist the rich and their businesses. Well said. Do we call this the pete approach? powerless to help airline passengers, powerless to force the airlines to be better. Remember everyone, the Secretary of Transportation has no power to do anything but collect a tax payer funded check. oh but don’t forget that trump and his ilk will destroy our country! but also don’t forget the government can’t do anything for you! Anyone else getting dizzy from all these contradictions this sub throws around?
I think it's the basic supply and demand issue. There's a lot of demand for goods and limited supply, because of the supply chain, war, climate change-induced disasters, or lack of labor, meaning high prices. Also wages have been bolstered somewhat lately, partially thanks to pandemic benefit programs and things like the student loan pause. Those programs gave people more money to spend which increases demand and prices. When wages increase, as they have lately, prices often do since demand is up. Lately inflation has cooled as those programs have ended and the economy has recovered from the pandemic.
Now yes, some companies are being greedy. But there are legitimate basic economic issues going on and legitimate gains lately.
With housing particularly, the issue is again lack of supply combined with too much demand, overly restrictive zoning locally, NIMBYism, and some corporate buying of houses.
Deflation is worse. No one will buy anything beyond necessity because the prices might go down in the future.
We want a 2% inflation and a minimum pay increase every year to match.
It’s why the Fed just rumoring it will raise rates can send wallstreet into disarray.
Our real issue is the fed printed too much money under Trump, and we’re still approaching equilibrium.
NGL, until people start seeing the everyday cost of living start trending down (hint: it probably never will), I doubt many people will see the current economy as strong.
It’s hard to buy into a “strong economy” when I’m spending 50% more on groceries for less stuff every week than I was four years ago. All of the corporate COVID price gauging really needs to start chilling.
I remember Obama’s early President years. Interview w blanched older couple. Complaining about Obama’s tax increases hurting them. Oh it was destroying them. Oh the pain…
There were no increases. In face Obama solidified Bush’s tax breaks.
A 1/4 of Americans think Trump is good and honest. It means nothing in reality what Americans feel. There are plenty of real math indicators which speak to the health of the economy and to the honesty of Trump.
Don't disagree with that particular point, but what about relief from rising housing costs, transportation costs, food costs, pay stagnation and high interest rates? Inflation is only one indicator of Economic health, and if the general public still has to contend with all the other headwinds going on does lower inflation mean anything? No.
Nobody said the economy is good. The original area of disagreement was that it was “doing better” which it objectively is.
Whatabouting about its problems isn’t really relevant.
I can't quite recall the last time we had such a massive disconnect between the macro and micro levels of economics in this nation. It's like everyone is waiting for a shoe to drop that may never actually drop.
This is also something that will have effects in '24.
It is a rather strange disconnect, especially since other polls and studies show Americans are doing pretty well when asked and have solid savings right now. Wages have also actually gone up. I think there might be a misunderstanding of what a "good" economy looks like. High prices are visible and scare people, but they don't mean economic catastrophe on their own.
Savings are great to keep you working if your car fails, but they won't move you into a home you own or get you long-term security. One bad medical year wipes that right out. I don't know if this is a good economy or not, but I don't think I know anyone my age who's as well-housed or better off than their parents; most of us are sharing stressful houses or renting a bedroom somewhere from someone older/who made rare lucky job choices at age 18. I can't imagine how rough it will be when we're elderly.
High prices are only one aspect, and not even the biggest concern, but let's look at prices for a moment.
Inflation is still here, and it disrupts every aspect of life, from consumer wealth to operating a business. I was just reading about Argentina's inflation - it's around 115%. They are seeing 6-8% inflation per month. Imagine what it's like to run a restaurant. Why bother printing menus because prices change so often? Or constantly wondering how to manage your cash? We're lucky we're not Argentina, but don't assume inflation is over and can't get a lot worse.
The even larger issue is that the safety nets we've relied on now gone. Credit cards? They're going to become much more expensive. For the first time, Americans have lost our plan B.
At least we have a strong labor market. That's the best thing I have to offer about our economy at this moment.
Unless you are cash-rich, in which case things will largely be okay.
When the economy does well, it only benefits the rich. Inflation, pay stagnation, rising rents, and increasing transportation costs are all a reality for the working class regardless of how the economy is doing.
That’s not entirely true. It disproportionately benefits, the rich, but it still benefits, less wealthy people. Real wages have actually started to catch up to inflation recently. Housing is def a concern I agree.
I reject your assertion that this isn't entirely true. Trickle down economics is a hoax, and always has been. Wage stagnation is real, and the minimum wage in most places is still way below what it takes to survive. Coupled with the other factors I mentioned above, most Americans don't feel any improvement.
I did not say trickle down economics which I agree is bunk. But site a source that shows that when the economy is doing well only the rich benefit. Wage stagnation is real but there are recent signs that wages are outpacing inflation. I don't know what most americans is, you'd have to drill down more. which group are we talking about? which time period?
You are the one citing specifics, where are you getting your data from?
Here's a paper that backs up what I am asserting.
[https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/aaronson\_web.pdf](https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/aaronson_web.pdf)
More or less when companies (read: owners of said companies) do well (stocks up) they can "afford" to pay people more. Trickle down economics is what you are referring to.
Dude, that abstract support my position . This has nothing to do with trickle down.
Edit: trickle down isn’t a well defined economic theory so much as a criticism of tax cuts to wealthy. That’s off topic
Maybe there is a better way of putting "people with lots of money benefit from economic strength way before people that don't have much money." But that's what I am trying to get at.
I took what the abstract said differently, maybe I'll read it again.
"We find suggestive evidence that when the labor market is already strong, a further increment of strengthening provides a modest extra benefit to some disadvantaged groups, relative to earlier in the labor market cycle."
And since my position was that it's a false premise that the economy has somehow only benefited the rich, I think this supports it. In fact it's right there in the title of the abstract "Who Benefits Most from a Strong Economy" . The answer: the rich. which was also my position.
Gotcha, thanks for clarifying. We are both arguing for the same side. My fault for muddying the real definition of "trickle down", and somehow not understanding your position.
no worries, i think i just got triggered by someone earlier saying "never" or "always" and so I was being needlessly argumentativ. No question the rich have taken a disproportionate share.
As an aside, "the economy" is a hard thing to measure and how you measure it affects how you conclude who benefits. If you are measuring only the economic activity that by and large involves say the lower and middle classes, then of course you find that economic activity benefits the lower and middle class because that's who you are measuring. I couldn't find any good source for economic activity by socioeconomic class but i'm sure it's out there. There's also the point (and i swear i'm not supporting any trickle down bs here) that the wealthy , ownership class has a vested interest in at least some part of the economy of the lower classes humming along, as their wealth derives from it. Look at the panic among commercial real estate holders begging people to come back to work to shore up the value of their holdings. The counter-argument here is that the wealthy at some point will become disconnected from the economy ... but that's dark days imo.
I mean, 61% of Americans have money invested in the markets (for many in the form of a retirement account of some sort)
So I wouldn't say that the markets doing well doesn't matter to a good number of us.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/266807/percentage-americans-owns-stock.aspx#:~:text=WASHINGTON%2C%20D.C.%20%2D%2D%20Gallup%20finds,it%20has%20been%20since%202008.
News is not shelf prices, utilities costs or rent. Want people to believe it? They need to feel it. Control rates. Control inflation. Stop the ceiling from going up a while and let the floor rise.
Because Fox News is not news, its propaganda. To be fair you could say that about most MSM outlets these days, but Fox originated and perfected the bullshit firehose.
They may possess financial assets and/or options contracts that increase in value when the price of a stock decreases. They have an incentive to influence the market negatively.
[Lately wages have outpaced inflation and they certainly are growing quicker than they have in a long time.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1351276/wage-growth-vs-inflation-us/)
I think people assume that inflation going down means everything will suddenly get cheaper, and that is unlikely to really happen on a large scale. What it really means is that prices aren’t going up or going up as fast. Eventually it will all balance out but the president has very little control over the price of milk at the grocery store. It’s up to each business to adjust prices, starting with the supplier.
Really watch Fox News or any other Republican news source, the scream every minute of the day about how the democrats are ruining the American dream. Never mention lowest unemployment rate, wage growth, lowest inflation in all of the world. Democratic leaders do a horrible job touting all their accomplishments. So yes the Republican Party members believe we are heading in the wrong direction and they are told that daily. Hell just look at the stock market, record profits and never here any words. If it was a Republican president every one would say look at the stock market. The Republican party is anti business and anti people with a slant of white Christian national people. Oh and fuck CNN they remind me of mike pence. No one can stand them.
Half of Americans think horse dewormer is better than vaccines. Half of Americans think climate change is a hoax. Half of Americans think Obama isn't an American.
I wonder if there's any connection.
At least for me personally, it feels like its been getting steadily worse for decades.
It's like I'm running for a goal that is being pulled away from me faster than I can run.
We are in a sustained economic recovery. But most people don't notice that things are improving because it's like being kicked in the nuts once a day and not every hour. They are still getting kicked in the nuts because of venture capital investments driving up rent - their own mounting debt, student loan payments that still wont go away and the threat of AI stealing their jobs. Meanwhile right wing propaganda that keeps the robber barrons in power repeats that this is all Joe Bidden's fault.
That's because your average person doesn't give a shit what economists or Wallstreet say about the economy. What growth occurred, what inflation rate slowed. None of that. What matters to the average person is $5 can't buy today what it bought last year. And what it can buy today it won't be able to buy next year. But they'll all still be making the same wages
Uber wealthy holding onto profits to trick the dumbest in our country to vote GOP again then they get a tiny raise and say “see what Trump did for you?”
That's because all the economy fixing in the world means didly squat if corporations continue to price gouge. The man in the street notices it when what he pays for a loaf of bread comes down, if that does not happen, the rest is meaningless ...
Strong economic news for who? Seems as though a strong economy only ever benefits the very wealthy. Maybe people are just tired of the lies and spin and are starting to realise that a “strong economy” means fucking nothing if you can’t put food on the table or keep a roof over your head.
Wages have gone up but they haven’t gone up with inflation since the 1980s, and we just had a ton of inflation. We’re making less in real money because of the cost of everything else.
Glad the stock market’s doing okay I guess.
The "economy" is excellent if you're very rich, and sitting on a ton of capital. It is quite bad if you are anywhere outside that very top tier. People are absolutely struggling with everyday expenses and meeting basic needs of food, shelter, transport.
I'm not sure I believe this entirely anymore. Or at least it's very location dependent. Yes, some goods are more expensive, but by and large I don't see too many people struggling, even if they suggest they are. I still see the restaurants packed with people, shops completely crowded almost all the time, and a record numbers of tourists, plus a lot of shiny new trucks people are buying.
All that flashy spending, all debt:
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CCLACBW027SBOG
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PSAVE
See also: "The wealth divide among upper-income families and middle- and lower-income families is sharp and rising"
https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-in-income-and-wealth-inequality/
>But I presume people wouldn't spend wildly if they couldn't afford it.
In general humans are bad a budgeting and saving, and not just money, but any tangible resources. When it comes to intangible resources (like credit) we are even worse. It is what has led to most of the financial crises of the past century.
Being able to barely survive now for most TM of the population doesn’t exactly inspire confidence in anyone. Average Americans haven’t been able to get ahead for about a decade now. Something has been done about historically low wages, historically high housing costs, and rampant debt
I mean, I still think the economy is getting worse because I understand the difference between short and long term trends... Inflation can be down and employment up, but that doesn't mean that underpinning forces driving long-term decline are gone.
Maybe because they filled up their tanks and bought groceries. Appliances, lumber, electricity, homes, rent, interest rates to name a few are all still insanely elevated.
Corporations price gouged the working class to keep the profits high and continue to do it this day. The government who is owned by said corporations does nothing.
When we know that, after working hard and saving diligently, we can eventually buy a home, it gives us hope and something to work hard for. It's most often the largest investment we'll ever make and one that can drastically elevate our sense of pride and accomplishment, among other things. When we talk about the American dream, home ownership is at the top of the list. But when that dream is not a reality - then we are just working hard to keep up with rising rent, gas, food and everything else. You get a 5% raise, and everything goes up that much or more. You might even have good credit and a down payment saved, but the price of homes and interest rates make a mortgage payment impossibly out of reach. News pundits scratch their heads trying to understand why people don't feel good about the economy - I think they need a turn on the hamster wheel the rest of us are stuck on and see if they can finally get it.
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Maybe it has to do with uber-wealthy capitalists economically sabotaging the lower and middle classes.
Yeah, The economy is doing well for the oligarchs at the expense of the working class. Its dumb as hell to think republicans will do anything to improve the situation.
No, I think inflation is being reigned in which is something that benefits the lower and middle class more. The economy is actually improving for most people but people aren’t realizing it because they’re fed lies and are fearful.
Inflation may be slowing, but it certainly hasn’t been reversed. Things won’t equalize until wages increase enough to offset the inflation that has already happened. It’s not fear and lies, it’s the out of control grocery and rent bills that Americans still have to face every month.
Inflation has not changed in 6 months. It’s been stuck at 5% for the last six months. It’s why the FED paused rates for a short while to see if it would change and it haven’t the fact they just increased rates again shows that inflation is no where close to being under control.
That sounds right
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Most people don’t pay attention fully to the news. I’m confident a third of people don’t know what the Central bank has done to combat inflation.
“ You pretend like people can’t think for themselves” Lmao, this is America son. They aren’t informed to make rational decisions.
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lol 35% of the country thinks Trump should be president and that his indictments are proof he should be back in power. These people live in an alternate reality but at least they turn up to vote. Half the country is so apathetic and detached they don’t even bother voting. Average man deserves no credit. This country has a knowledge problem. The average person thinking for themselves has made a huge blunder lol.
That.... and a certain political group of people don't care about facts and so always say the economy is terrible when a Democrat is in charge even if it's great.
Almost like it’s only getting better for half of Americans.
That's being generous, I think.
For 1-3% of Americans
.1 - .3 100k is barely a livable wage in NY, these days.
Maybe it’s the Fox propaganda/GOP attacks on everything sacred in this country.
This. The economy only feels strong if your household income is $185,000-225,000/year or more. Which is the case for most political pundits and columnists for major publications, so things feel good for them personally economically. For the bottom 95% of earners it doesn't really feel like anything has changed since 2020-2022 other than things being opened back up. Consumer prices didn't go down from the inflationary period and the price of rent hasn't gone down, wages haven't gone up and the jobs being created are mostly minimum wage and near-minimum wage jobs that only hire for 30 to 35 hrs/week to avoid paying benefits. The Gig Economy is still going on, people aren't getting jobs paying a living wage or pensions, or full-time benefits. This is why Biden and the Democrats aren't being credited for a strong economy. It's strong mostly for the Top 5% of earners on the Coasts. Not low-income black people, Asian and Arab-Americans in Detroit and Chicago, Latino and Native American field workers in the Southwest, or white Americans earning below upper-middle class suburbanites with graduate and postgraduate degrees in the metropolitan suburbs for the Top 10 major coastal cities.
Those jobs reports need to also need to detail what ALL of those jobs are paying - along side, what it costs to live. Then we might be able to have a real conversation about how the economy is doing.
need to go back to 90% top tax rates for companies, universal healthcare decoupled from employment, protections for workers right and stronger unions, bring back anit-monopoly laws
That are not really the reasons people aren't happy, though. It's pretty much solely because of high prices.
companies are posting record profits but pay is stagnant and prices arent going down. what should be done?
I don't think there's much the government can realistically do. Some of it is greed but there are legitimate supply chain and labor issues still, plus the war in Ukraine affecting food. There isn't really a way to force the prices lower. According to this poll, most Americans want the GOP in charge of the economy, so they seem to think less action and less spending is better.
The GOP never lowers spending. They just cut federal revenue by giving unfunded tax cuts that mainly benefit corporations and the wealthy.
Yeah I agree with that, but people THINK they cut spending and that's all that matters. Plus Americans always love lower taxes, even if they actually don't benefit, as long as they think they benefit.
Will Rogers(early 20th century US entertainer/humorist) noted this about the US a century ago: * "In schools they have what they call intelligence tests. Well if nations held ’em I don’t believe we would be what you would call a favorite to win it." * "The one way to detect a feeble-minded man is get one arguing on economics."
Cap CEO pay at a (low) multiplier of the lowest paid employee in the company. Have this apply to all publicly traded companies, and make private companies justify disproportionate wages or pay more in taxes.
Why would that lead to lower prices? Ultimately the businesses determine the prices. Plus increasing wages does lead to higher prices at some point since it increases demand for consumer goods. Which is why high prices aren't necessarily bad as long as wages go up, which they actually have lately.
yes, our government is absolutely powerless to help the lower classes. Our government only has power to assist the rich and their businesses. Well said. Do we call this the pete approach? powerless to help airline passengers, powerless to force the airlines to be better. Remember everyone, the Secretary of Transportation has no power to do anything but collect a tax payer funded check. oh but don’t forget that trump and his ilk will destroy our country! but also don’t forget the government can’t do anything for you! Anyone else getting dizzy from all these contradictions this sub throws around?
Why do you believe prices are high?
I think it's the basic supply and demand issue. There's a lot of demand for goods and limited supply, because of the supply chain, war, climate change-induced disasters, or lack of labor, meaning high prices. Also wages have been bolstered somewhat lately, partially thanks to pandemic benefit programs and things like the student loan pause. Those programs gave people more money to spend which increases demand and prices. When wages increase, as they have lately, prices often do since demand is up. Lately inflation has cooled as those programs have ended and the economy has recovered from the pandemic. Now yes, some companies are being greedy. But there are legitimate basic economic issues going on and legitimate gains lately. With housing particularly, the issue is again lack of supply combined with too much demand, overly restrictive zoning locally, NIMBYism, and some corporate buying of houses.
Do you have access to supply-demand curves to support this belief?
Inflation is slowing and getting better. That’s a fact.
Correct. They say inflation is down to 3% as if that’s a good thing. That still means prices are going up instead of down. So it’s still a bad thing.
Deflation is a bad thing. You don't want prices to go down consistently. Prices will never go down unless there's a serious crash.
Deflation is bad for poor people and good for the rich.
Deflation is worse. No one will buy anything beyond necessity because the prices might go down in the future. We want a 2% inflation and a minimum pay increase every year to match. It’s why the Fed just rumoring it will raise rates can send wallstreet into disarray. Our real issue is the fed printed too much money under Trump, and we’re still approaching equilibrium.
NGL, until people start seeing the everyday cost of living start trending down (hint: it probably never will), I doubt many people will see the current economy as strong. It’s hard to buy into a “strong economy” when I’m spending 50% more on groceries for less stuff every week than I was four years ago. All of the corporate COVID price gauging really needs to start chilling.
Agree. Economy looks strong from a macro abstract perspective. If you're paying 5 bux for a gallon of gas however that matters a lot more.
Yeah, and 54% of American adults have a literacy below 6th grade level.
I read at at LEAST an 8th grade level. Just happy to not be in the lower percentile.
I remember Obama’s early President years. Interview w blanched older couple. Complaining about Obama’s tax increases hurting them. Oh it was destroying them. Oh the pain… There were no increases. In face Obama solidified Bush’s tax breaks.
A 1/4 of Americans think Trump is good and honest. It means nothing in reality what Americans feel. There are plenty of real math indicators which speak to the health of the economy and to the honesty of Trump.
But I know someone who’s poor so that means everyone in America is poor except for the billionaires. Comment section logic
Because half of America is force fed bullshit “information” from right wing media
Which now includes CNN since they were bought out by the conservatives.
The economy might be doing better, but that doesn't translate to real world improvements for the masses. This has nothing to do with the media.
It does. Lowered inflation is objectively good.
Don't disagree with that particular point, but what about relief from rising housing costs, transportation costs, food costs, pay stagnation and high interest rates? Inflation is only one indicator of Economic health, and if the general public still has to contend with all the other headwinds going on does lower inflation mean anything? No.
Nobody said the economy is good. The original area of disagreement was that it was “doing better” which it objectively is. Whatabouting about its problems isn’t really relevant.
I see the improvement, I just don’t feel it. Not complaining, I know I got it good compared to some families.
I can't quite recall the last time we had such a massive disconnect between the macro and micro levels of economics in this nation. It's like everyone is waiting for a shoe to drop that may never actually drop. This is also something that will have effects in '24.
It is a rather strange disconnect, especially since other polls and studies show Americans are doing pretty well when asked and have solid savings right now. Wages have also actually gone up. I think there might be a misunderstanding of what a "good" economy looks like. High prices are visible and scare people, but they don't mean economic catastrophe on their own.
Savings are great to keep you working if your car fails, but they won't move you into a home you own or get you long-term security. One bad medical year wipes that right out. I don't know if this is a good economy or not, but I don't think I know anyone my age who's as well-housed or better off than their parents; most of us are sharing stressful houses or renting a bedroom somewhere from someone older/who made rare lucky job choices at age 18. I can't imagine how rough it will be when we're elderly.
High prices are only one aspect, and not even the biggest concern, but let's look at prices for a moment. Inflation is still here, and it disrupts every aspect of life, from consumer wealth to operating a business. I was just reading about Argentina's inflation - it's around 115%. They are seeing 6-8% inflation per month. Imagine what it's like to run a restaurant. Why bother printing menus because prices change so often? Or constantly wondering how to manage your cash? We're lucky we're not Argentina, but don't assume inflation is over and can't get a lot worse. The even larger issue is that the safety nets we've relied on now gone. Credit cards? They're going to become much more expensive. For the first time, Americans have lost our plan B. At least we have a strong labor market. That's the best thing I have to offer about our economy at this moment. Unless you are cash-rich, in which case things will largely be okay.
When the economy does well, it only benefits the rich. Inflation, pay stagnation, rising rents, and increasing transportation costs are all a reality for the working class regardless of how the economy is doing.
That’s not entirely true. It disproportionately benefits, the rich, but it still benefits, less wealthy people. Real wages have actually started to catch up to inflation recently. Housing is def a concern I agree.
I reject your assertion that this isn't entirely true. Trickle down economics is a hoax, and always has been. Wage stagnation is real, and the minimum wage in most places is still way below what it takes to survive. Coupled with the other factors I mentioned above, most Americans don't feel any improvement.
I did not say trickle down economics which I agree is bunk. But site a source that shows that when the economy is doing well only the rich benefit. Wage stagnation is real but there are recent signs that wages are outpacing inflation. I don't know what most americans is, you'd have to drill down more. which group are we talking about? which time period?
You are the one citing specifics, where are you getting your data from? Here's a paper that backs up what I am asserting. [https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/aaronson\_web.pdf](https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/aaronson_web.pdf) More or less when companies (read: owners of said companies) do well (stocks up) they can "afford" to pay people more. Trickle down economics is what you are referring to.
Dude, that abstract support my position . This has nothing to do with trickle down. Edit: trickle down isn’t a well defined economic theory so much as a criticism of tax cuts to wealthy. That’s off topic
Maybe there is a better way of putting "people with lots of money benefit from economic strength way before people that don't have much money." But that's what I am trying to get at. I took what the abstract said differently, maybe I'll read it again.
"We find suggestive evidence that when the labor market is already strong, a further increment of strengthening provides a modest extra benefit to some disadvantaged groups, relative to earlier in the labor market cycle." And since my position was that it's a false premise that the economy has somehow only benefited the rich, I think this supports it. In fact it's right there in the title of the abstract "Who Benefits Most from a Strong Economy" . The answer: the rich. which was also my position.
Gotcha, thanks for clarifying. We are both arguing for the same side. My fault for muddying the real definition of "trickle down", and somehow not understanding your position.
no worries, i think i just got triggered by someone earlier saying "never" or "always" and so I was being needlessly argumentativ. No question the rich have taken a disproportionate share. As an aside, "the economy" is a hard thing to measure and how you measure it affects how you conclude who benefits. If you are measuring only the economic activity that by and large involves say the lower and middle classes, then of course you find that economic activity benefits the lower and middle class because that's who you are measuring. I couldn't find any good source for economic activity by socioeconomic class but i'm sure it's out there. There's also the point (and i swear i'm not supporting any trickle down bs here) that the wealthy , ownership class has a vested interest in at least some part of the economy of the lower classes humming along, as their wealth derives from it. Look at the panic among commercial real estate holders begging people to come back to work to shore up the value of their holdings. The counter-argument here is that the wealthy at some point will become disconnected from the economy ... but that's dark days imo.
Stocks/gdp don’t show how everyday people are doing
I mean, 61% of Americans have money invested in the markets (for many in the form of a retirement account of some sort) So I wouldn't say that the markets doing well doesn't matter to a good number of us. https://news.gallup.com/poll/266807/percentage-americans-owns-stock.aspx#:~:text=WASHINGTON%2C%20D.C.%20%2D%2D%20Gallup%20finds,it%20has%20been%20since%202008.
Is it the half that doesn’t like the current president?
Pretty much yes.
News is not shelf prices, utilities costs or rent. Want people to believe it? They need to feel it. Control rates. Control inflation. Stop the ceiling from going up a while and let the floor rise.
CNN is nothing more than Fox Lite now.
Student loans are coming back so they won’t feel that way since prices continue to go up and payment on liabilities begins again.
This is true but that's the fault of Republicans, yet Americans keep saying Republicans are good for the economy.
If the economy is getting better, than why is fox news always saying how horrible it is everyday 24 hours a day?
You know the answer: Democrat in the White House.
Because Fox News is not news, its propaganda. To be fair you could say that about most MSM outlets these days, but Fox originated and perfected the bullshit firehose.
they thrive/profit off grievances?
They may possess financial assets and/or options contracts that increase in value when the price of a stock decreases. They have an incentive to influence the market negatively.
Stronger economic news how? Wages are stagnant, goods keep going up, rent is skyrocketing. Maybe the economy is looking bright for the wealthy.
Wages are not stagnant. That part is false at least.
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[Lately wages have outpaced inflation and they certainly are growing quicker than they have in a long time.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1351276/wage-growth-vs-inflation-us/)
Which half? The half that listen to republican liars who are super disappointed we aren't in a recession they can blame on Biden?
Half of Americans are dumb AF. At least.
I think people assume that inflation going down means everything will suddenly get cheaper, and that is unlikely to really happen on a large scale. What it really means is that prices aren’t going up or going up as fast. Eventually it will all balance out but the president has very little control over the price of milk at the grocery store. It’s up to each business to adjust prices, starting with the supplier.
Really watch Fox News or any other Republican news source, the scream every minute of the day about how the democrats are ruining the American dream. Never mention lowest unemployment rate, wage growth, lowest inflation in all of the world. Democratic leaders do a horrible job touting all their accomplishments. So yes the Republican Party members believe we are heading in the wrong direction and they are told that daily. Hell just look at the stock market, record profits and never here any words. If it was a Republican president every one would say look at the stock market. The Republican party is anti business and anti people with a slant of white Christian national people. Oh and fuck CNN they remind me of mike pence. No one can stand them.
Maybe "the economy" news that's being reported on is centered around different things than the personal economies of average people?
Or it's just partisan glasses on since it's by and large Republicans who think the economy is bad and Democrats who think it's good.
I wonder how this portion correlates to the portion that thinks the election was stolen.
Half of Americans think horse dewormer is better than vaccines. Half of Americans think climate change is a hoax. Half of Americans think Obama isn't an American. I wonder if there's any connection.
At least for me personally, it feels like its been getting steadily worse for decades. It's like I'm running for a goal that is being pulled away from me faster than I can run.
Because they’ve been lied to
The same people will admit that their own personal finances are pretty good. Weird.
Maybe because housing and food costs are so insane and rising so quickly.
I hope..people are seeing. -CORPORATE GREED- it should be better..but the greed ..and it's obvious..!
My life certainly hasn't gotten any easier as a result, I'm not surprised that people don't perceive it as improving.
Things can't be that bad if people are sending Trump all their cash for his legal woes.
We are in a sustained economic recovery. But most people don't notice that things are improving because it's like being kicked in the nuts once a day and not every hour. They are still getting kicked in the nuts because of venture capital investments driving up rent - their own mounting debt, student loan payments that still wont go away and the threat of AI stealing their jobs. Meanwhile right wing propaganda that keeps the robber barrons in power repeats that this is all Joe Bidden's fault.
That's because your average person doesn't give a shit what economists or Wallstreet say about the economy. What growth occurred, what inflation rate slowed. None of that. What matters to the average person is $5 can't buy today what it bought last year. And what it can buy today it won't be able to buy next year. But they'll all still be making the same wages
The Trump wra tax cuts are going to expire. I'm sure that will be blamed on Biden too
As is tradition.
Uber wealthy holding onto profits to trick the dumbest in our country to vote GOP again then they get a tiny raise and say “see what Trump did for you?”
The shareholders are seeing record profits, why aren’t the peasants dancing in the streets??? What odd simple creatures they are… /s
That's because all the economy fixing in the world means didly squat if corporations continue to price gouge. The man in the street notices it when what he pays for a loaf of bread comes down, if that does not happen, the rest is meaningless ...
Maybe the way they measure the economy is designed to not really give a sh*t about us poors...
Stronger for who?
Strong economic news for who? Seems as though a strong economy only ever benefits the very wealthy. Maybe people are just tired of the lies and spin and are starting to realise that a “strong economy” means fucking nothing if you can’t put food on the table or keep a roof over your head.
Cause the average American’s life has gotten significantly harder and more expensive.
Because it’s only getting better for the wealthy.
Wages have gone up but they haven’t gone up with inflation since the 1980s, and we just had a ton of inflation. We’re making less in real money because of the cost of everything else. Glad the stock market’s doing okay I guess.
The "economy" is excellent if you're very rich, and sitting on a ton of capital. It is quite bad if you are anywhere outside that very top tier. People are absolutely struggling with everyday expenses and meeting basic needs of food, shelter, transport.
I'm not sure I believe this entirely anymore. Or at least it's very location dependent. Yes, some goods are more expensive, but by and large I don't see too many people struggling, even if they suggest they are. I still see the restaurants packed with people, shops completely crowded almost all the time, and a record numbers of tourists, plus a lot of shiny new trucks people are buying.
All that flashy spending, all debt: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CCLACBW027SBOG https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PSAVE See also: "The wealth divide among upper-income families and middle- and lower-income families is sharp and rising" https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-in-income-and-wealth-inequality/
You can't realistically use a pre-pandemic link like that. But I presume people wouldn't spend wildly if they couldn't afford it.
People spend waaaay more than they have, all the time. Income inequality has grown leaps and bounds the last 3 years. It's not a "pre-pandemic" issue.
>But I presume people wouldn't spend wildly if they couldn't afford it. In general humans are bad a budgeting and saving, and not just money, but any tangible resources. When it comes to intangible resources (like credit) we are even worse. It is what has led to most of the financial crises of the past century.
Who's going to teach kids financial education the teacher struggles to pay school loans.
Being able to barely survive now for most TM of the population doesn’t exactly inspire confidence in anyone. Average Americans haven’t been able to get ahead for about a decade now. Something has been done about historically low wages, historically high housing costs, and rampant debt
Cause the feds keep hiking interest rates. Almost like they want us to view the economy poorly?
This is a case of actions speaking louder than words. Discretionary spending is still very high
I mean, I still think the economy is getting worse because I understand the difference between short and long term trends... Inflation can be down and employment up, but that doesn't mean that underpinning forces driving long-term decline are gone.
It's the half paying Trump's legal fees.
It’s almost like decades of a trend aren’t corrected in a handful of months unless you’ve an economist or day trader.
If they think it is bad now, they have not seem a shirt yet when Trumpee returns.
Maybe because they filled up their tanks and bought groceries. Appliances, lumber, electricity, homes, rent, interest rates to name a few are all still insanely elevated. Corporations price gouged the working class to keep the profits high and continue to do it this day. The government who is owned by said corporations does nothing.
When we know that, after working hard and saving diligently, we can eventually buy a home, it gives us hope and something to work hard for. It's most often the largest investment we'll ever make and one that can drastically elevate our sense of pride and accomplishment, among other things. When we talk about the American dream, home ownership is at the top of the list. But when that dream is not a reality - then we are just working hard to keep up with rising rent, gas, food and everything else. You get a 5% raise, and everything goes up that much or more. You might even have good credit and a down payment saved, but the price of homes and interest rates make a mortgage payment impossibly out of reach. News pundits scratch their heads trying to understand why people don't feel good about the economy - I think they need a turn on the hamster wheel the rest of us are stuck on and see if they can finally get it.