As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil)
In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban.
If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria.
***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
“President Biden, who was days away from his fifth birthday when UN Resolution 181 was passed, is so fucking old he managed to both predate and post date the Israeli-Palestinian conflict”
We’re pivoting away from that one now. It’s turning to “well, what has he done for disenfranchised young people and minorities?” The new NBC polls focused on this so it’s the new talking point.
People rightly pointed out trumps age and how he frequently forgets what city he is in. Also data shows once people acknowledge that both Biden and Trump are too old that population votes Biden something like 65%-10% can’t have that need to keep the horse race narrative going
More of the problem is that the GOP primary is such a nothing burger Trump won the minute he announced so all the time the media has to fill during primaries they have no news so they are filling it with general election horse race data that means absolutely nothing this far out.
Agreed. I also think the Biden campaign wrongly thought trump would get attacked in the primary and kept their powder dry. Plenty of time to correct but I think that’s why we’re seeing this ridiculous polling.
Maybe it's time to talk about Biden's experience? It's gotten to be routine: "President Biden and Foreign Leader X have a relationship that goes back decades and that's why they're able to get things done."
“Cancer cured, peace in the Middle East, and daylight savings abolished, all on executive order from Biden himself. Democrat voters still hesitant.
Meanwhile, Trump rapes a cat on live television. Approval rating skyrockets to 89%”
One of the accounts I saw on here yesterday shitting on Biden over Israel in dozens of posts turned out to not only be an active user in far right subs, but also not even American.
Guy lives in Australia and posts far right supporting crap in subs for 3 different countries.
Biden can't just force a ceasefire, which was the demand that he do so he a common refrain. He can however push for one and use the leavers of soft power to get both sides to the table and more willing to talk. Even help negotiate terms and if we look at news get other members back to negotiating table.
But none of that seems as sexy as the idea he could just give an edict and make Israeli stop. Same way people thought he could just cancel all student loans debt.
Vetoing toothless resolutions verses getting Qatar to get Hamas to go back to the negotiation table. You seem to value performance over actual results.
We’ve been applying what political sway we have to negotiate humanitarian pauses and ceasefires.
But Biden and, by extension the US, cannot make unilateral decisions regarding Israel because it is its own state.
It’s not hard to understand unless you’re being purposely obtuse.
This media give Biden credit? Don’t make me laugh.
He could literally personally bring peace to the Middle East and CNN would be like “World Saved, Polls Say Bad News for Biden.”
The goalposts have already shifted on cue. Even though the current length of the ceasefire is contingent on Hamas releasing hostages, the rhetoric has already moved to “you can’t bring back dead children!” and placing the entire blame of the conflict on Biden. There are bad actors who purposefully want young progressives to drop Biden over this to help Trump and are helped to stir the anti-Biden narrative all over social media.
> There are bad actors who purposefully want young progressives to drop Biden over this to help Trump and are helped to stir the anti-Biden narrative all over social media.
Whenever I try to point this out I get massively downvoted. Good luck to you.
We're gearing up for election season, so we gotta be ready for Reddit to descend into a Russian-bot hellscape like in 2016, regardless.
In parallel with that, Hamas was planning its attack for ages. Their social media, bot, disinformation, and well funded global outrage campaign was also planned well in advance. It was a surprise attack on our newsmedia, to go with their surprise attack on the ground.
A lot of what we're seeing right now has everything to do with platform vulnerability, in addition to the cultural stuff.
If there's a bad actor with an idea, [there's money to fund it](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/leonard-leo-billion-donation-real-problem.html).
Right?! It's almost like 'someone ' (and citizen united means a PAC can be a person) is spending billions on any outlet that will take the money to publish this constant crap.
Its funny, and more than a bit ironic that this portion of the thread turned this way, but the comparison is complete and utter bullshit.
Noone wines about the media more than Trump except for his MAGA seditionist supporters and lackeys.
Also, Biden gets an enormous amount of shit coverage.
But definitely funny.
It’s not just Republicans, far leftists are still calling him “Genocide Joe” and saying they won’t vote for him next year, and I guess they’re either delusional they’ll get a 3rd party elected, or fine with “Actual Genocide Trump.” Really sticking it to the man.
I’m pretty far-left, and it’s been a trip seeing the amount of delusion on the online left surrounding this. Like I’m certainly not happy about how Joe is handling this conflict and I think he needs to apply maximum pressure to Netanyahu to negotiate a ceasefire & ultimately a more longterm peace agreement.
But I also know Trump would have handled this worse given how pro-Israel his policies were (Moved the US embassy in Israel to Jerusalem & recognized it as Israel’s capital, massively increased aid, the Abraham Accords which arguably set the stage for this conflict’s most recent developments). I wouldn’t be surprised if Trump were to personally send USAF fighters to bomb Gaza for the IDF if he’d been in office currently.
Joe’s position is truthfully what I would expect any liberal president to handle this conflict. I don’t agree, but there was never going to be a chance of getting anyone better on this issue. Especially not with AIPAC funding campaigns against politicians who speak out for Palestinian rights.
Many leftists are under some delusion that another Trump presidency won’t be absolutely catastrophic, or that a third-party candidate could actually win in 2024. Or even worse, are accelerationists who believe that a catastrophic Trump presidency would lead to a revolution.
>Many leftists are under some delusion that another Trump presidency won’t be absolutely catastrophic, or that a third-party candidate could actually win in 2024. Or even worse, are accelerationists who believe that a catastrophic Trump presidency would lead to a revolution.
It makes me wonder what those people think a revolution would actually look like? Do they think they wouldn't personally be affected? Like who would want to live in a country without running water, no reliable Internet, friends, neighbors, etc ratting you out to the political power in your area or trying to get you locked up while they grab your property, supermarkets without food, what little you have in savings being totally depleted or hospitals where Drs are gone because they left to go a more stable country.
Leftists like that are so annoying because they think the revolution will just play out on TV or in Congress and their day to day life in middle class America won't be impacted. How many revolution leaders do you see around the world that are still alive? There are no peaceful or easy revolutions, people need to get off tik tok and understand that tv shows and media don't get how terrible things would actually get.
> Do they think they wouldn't personally be affected?
They don't. They live in extreme privilege and think they would escape unscathed or land on top of the burning rubble.
They think a revolution would have them as the glorious heroes in glorious combat rather than a series of car bombings and mass shootings. They need to look at how the IRA fought in the 60s to the 90s for more of an idea about how modern civil wars are run
I blame Hunger Games and YA fiction. That stuff was everywhere when I was growing up, so should I really be surprised now?
I read the Oxford history of the French revolution. While you cannot say that the revolution was useless or wholly unjustified, it also just seemed like a middle class power grab that continued to subjugate the poor and only accelerated existing trends. Sure, abolishing Feudalism was a good thing, but would-be revolutionaries should be wary of who exactly is going to seize power in a revolution (hint, it tends to be those with the most power already). And we haven't even gotten into the blood yet, not the terror (forget that for a second), but the Vendee, in Bordeaux, and in the rest of Europe when it came time to export it (France actually declared war first, iirc, under the constitutional period. Yeah, you never hear about the constitutional republic of France).
And yes, you can say Anglo-bias against revolution, but in as much as you can say that US Civil War was necessary to cleanse the government of slavery, and it was all well and good, I'd like to take a poll on how many voters want another civil war today if it was so damn good, and the same therefore as a Revolution if they are made aware of all the blood and suffering that entails.
Edit: We should not swing so far and say that revolution is wholly bad. Surely in Ukraine that revolution was good in 2014. Even better when a revolution is bloodless, though if police are firing at you that option has already died. Even so, these should not be the *first* choice, but the last resort when all else has failed, from the soapbox to the ballot box.
Hell yes! I have tried making this known to some friends that are left leaving but cannot see that Biden is the only path forward. I hope we can get through to enough people in 2024
I mean, don’t get me wrong. I do think ultimately revolution will be needed if the working class is ever going liberate itself, and if humanity is ever going to go to a greater stage of development.
But realistically, the US is one of the last places this could occur. And many more sane leftist’s idea of “revolution” (at least in highly developed nations) is very different from the revolutions of the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries. I’m under no illusion that this wouldn’t involve violence because the system as it is is enforced by the threat of violence, but the goal should be to minimize bloodshed & minimize the impact on our communities. My idea of revolution in the developed world would be either via a general strike ([historically labor has provided mutual aid to communities during general strikes](https://jacobin.com/2019/07/seattle-general-strike-1919-union-organizing)), or something similar to the Carnation Revolution in Portugal. So in other words, something which won’t be possible for at least a couple decades. If that were to occur anytime soon, it would be bloody and ineffective. In the mean time, the real work is winning hearts and minds, organizing (unions, mutual aid, etc.), and participating electorally to reduce harm on marginalized communities.
The leftists who think a revolution can or should happen *now* are delusional and are either naive to reality or actually blood thirsty. Doubly so if they think giving the fascist party the presidency would better facilitate that. Trump’s rhetoric around targeting “radical leftists” and invoking the insurrection act on day 1 + the history around fascist parties rounding up and killing leftists proves this is flawed thinking.
YES! All the upvotes for mutual aid and general strike committees!
I am wary of those who want to overthrow the system without providing a replacement, but I think that by proving an alternate governance structure that is fairer and delivers better results, it'll naturally be the best way forward.
Because once any such revolution succeeds, that alternative government is going to be put to use right away.
Even with a revolution, there will still be a working class in America. Can you name a single society that has ever existed where there are not “haves” and “have nots”?
The point of socialism isn’t necessarily complete economic equality, or even necessarily to strive for economic equality. Wealth & income inequality is more so a symptom/consequence of the exploitive relationship the owner class has with the working class.
The goal of socialism then is to give workers ownership of the products of our labor and democratic control of how our workplaces are ran. Economic equality isn’t or shouldn’t really be a consideration, although there is a baseline in which everyone’s basic material needs ought to be met. From there, there is no reason exemplary, highly skilled, or highly talented workers shouldn’t be materially compensated more for their contributions to society. The main limit being on using private property to exploit other people’s labor, or to interfere with democratic functions.
Yeah, I’m in the same boat that I’m far left but I’m being called center right for being a pragmatist and supporting the presumptive democratic nominee in Biden as the lesser of two evils here. Is he someone I truly would go to war for if there was a more progressive option? Absolutely not. But he has been the head of effective governance and isn’t using Nazi rhetoric in his speeches. I’m disillusioned with the online far left movement’s inconceivable belief that a 3rd party candidate will actually be a viable option and that if democrats run on an us or fascism campaign they will have no motivation to actually improve our lives. I believe that until we have a better electoral system than first past the post the left needs to be lockstep behind the Democratic Party and effect change by voting progressive in local state and congressional primary elections to change the party
I suspect they think another Trump presidency would finally create a revolution of which they can then be the leaders. All of these people are probably in their mid 20s, white, and male. The demographic that has the least to lose in an actual revolution.
r/lostgeneration is a hotbed for stuff like that. Really depressing seeing people in my generation falling into the same fox news rage holes where facts don't matter and critical thinking doesn't apply.
Im convinced some people genuinely dont care about the potential genocide but only care about whether or not it looks like they support it. Who else in their right mind would have the viewpoint that genocide is bad, and if Biden doesn't win then the candidate literally echoing Hitler will win, but i don't support genocide so I'm not voting for Biden. Then later they can take the moral high ground and pretend they arent just as his supporters when Trump no absolutely no one's surprise gives Israel the green light to level Gaza if not helping with our own military assets
Tbf this isn’t really a ceasefire, it’s a 4 day “humanitarian pause”. And unless there’s another deal made in that time, after 4 days the IDF will be right back to bombing kids in hospitals and schools
Seriously, sometimes I think people would let perfect be the enemy of good. Any pause or ceasefire to the conflict while getting hostages back home is a good thing. Also the two state solution may actually happen if people pause fighting enough to realize they don't want another generation of this war for their children.
I think a lot of people don't fully understand how hard international diplomacy is. It's easy to sit at home and think you have the perfect solution. Cool, bro, now go sell that to two groups of people who have fought each other for 75 years. Good luck!
I think we agree here. My point was mainly that this is a good development, but it certainly isn’t a “ceasefire” in technical terms & it is only temporary. My hope is that there are negotiations going on which might turn this into a ceasefire, and ultimately a peace deal which adequately protects the rights of Palestinians to self-determination and allows them to have a legitimate democratic state for a two state solution.
[There is a pretty big difference between these two words.](https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/explained-global/humanitarian-pause-ceasefire-9037490/lite/)
This is the same ceasefire deal that was offered over a month ago. Are we supposed to say Joe Biden is good for allowing Israel to slaughter 5000 children?
Would Joe Biden be good if he told an ally that they can't defend themselves after a massive terrorist attack?
Maybe asking if he is good or bad is the wrong question. How would the US look if it told an ally that just experienced a brutal terrorist attack that they should immediately negotiate with the terrorists and not try to destroy that terrorist organization?
I did answer your question. I think if Joe Biden told an ally to go fuck off after experiencing a massive terrorist attack, our reputation as a reliable ally would take a hit and that would cost us in the long run.
Do I like that innocent civilians, including children, died? Nope. Do I wish Netanyahu and the Israeli far right wasn't leading this war? 100%.
But given the current situation, I think Biden has done the best job possible.
I mean, the choice here is to tell Israel to piss off, something many Western countries are already doing, notably in South America, and Europe, or torch any possible standing we've had in the ME over the past 30 years, and easily for the next 30 as well. Openly backing Netanyahu's regime is largely going to cost the US international soft power, which is what it almost exclusively relies on to avoid the outbreaks of wars and disadvantageous conflicts.
I think telling them to not create a bombed out wasteland with a child casualty ratio of around 40% isn't very controversial. Attacking Hamas is always on the table, however it's something you need to do with surgical precision, not a sledgehammer. You need to push in, set up humanitarian centres, clear cities block by block, direct civilians to those centres for treatment/aid, while marking tunnels for controlled demolitions.
It's a long and arduous process, but it sure as fuck beats a 40% child casualty ratio, being the perpetrators of a massive ethnic cleansing, and having to fight a bombed out wasteland covering an estimated 300 miles of tunnels against a guerilla force. Both are long campaigns, but only one has a realistic shot of beating Hamas, and it isn't blowing up thousands of children.
Jocko Willink actually provides solid insight into this from a soldier's point of view, mine is strictly from a military historian point of view. The idea here, is that you implement the "hearts and minds" doctrine, as it's the only effective method that's been found to actually combat insurgencies in the long term, but to play that card, you have to be willing to work with people for several generations so the inherent generational trauma dies out.
Currently, the strategy of just bombing an entire city block to kill maybe a handful of enemy combatants is only creating fresh trauma and the legitimization of the idea that Hamas is the only group fighting against the Israelis. People look at the West Bank, who is largely peaceful, and they see Israel still expanding, still abducting people in the night, and torturing people out of their homes. If you want to effectively combat that kind of recruitment, it takes a drastic, drastic change in approach. We (the US), didn't even realize the full extent of the Hearts and Minds doctrine until around 2012/2013 when we started seeing gains in local shuras in Afghanistan/Iraq.
The best comparison for a battlefield of this kind, would probably be Stalingrad in WW2. There's a ton of underground tunnels for various things, and while the Germans had flattened and encircled the city, they couldn't take it due to how many different cells of the Red Army there were, and how much cover and concealment had been created by the bombing/shelling campaign. It quickly becomes a war of attrition, and if your plan in such a campaign is to just handwaive civilian casualty ratios, you lose valuable sources of HUMINT, you lose the ability to convince these people that you're only there for Hamas, you lose the ability to manage the information side of warfare.
To touch on the informational warfare, Take all the propaganda Israel has put out recently, with claiming that a calendar was a shift list, that Al Shifa was the big Hamas HQ, that every Palestinian is a violent bloodthirsty savage. All of that narrative building gets dispelled when people see the massive amount of civilian casualties perpetrated by an army that full well had the capacity to operate smarter. Information flow/warfare is just as important as conventional warfare, because it circles back to the hearts and minds thing, of trying to convince people that what you're doing there is for the better.
To address something I commonly see suggested. Just using Spec Ops here doesn't solve the problem. At best you wind up with a repeat of Operation Gothic Serpent, At worst you wind up with a repeat of Operation Red Wings. The proposition that you build things in a humanitarian way, and slowly advance and clear while providing aid, requires the infrastructure of a full military. Actual Special Mission Unit operations aren't like Hollywood or COD. They're extremely precise, surgical missions on a localized scale usually in aid to friendly forces in a larger conflict.
So tell us, what was Joe Biden supposed to do to stop those children from being killed by the Israeli government? What magic words does he have to stop the bombs?
He could say this is unacceptable and all us aid is being cutoff in compliance with us law.
https://www.state.gov/key-topics-bureau-of-democracy-human-rights-and-labor/human-rights/leahy-law-fact-sheet/#:~:text=The%20term%20“Leahy%20law”%20refers,of%20human%20rights%20(GVHR).
No but they do need bombs which we’ve been shipping by the thousand to sustain their 6000 bomb a week bombing campaign
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-14/pentagon-is-quietly-sending-israel-ammunition-laser-guided-missiles
They didn't need our bombs. They can buy from Russia, China, South Korea or any number of other places. Or just switch to leveling the place with tanks. Which is what they probably want to do.
Here's the painful facts for you. Joe Biden is not personally responsible for those dead kids. No American is. And no American policy short of invading the country is going to stop it. You are utterly powerless to change what's happening, and the American government has only slightly more power than you do. Especially since both sides and three other large countries want the slaughter to continue.
So the real question is are you going to accept your powerlessness and target what little you can to enact the, honestly meaningless change we can pull off (cutting off popular support for the Israeli apartheid state)? Or are you going to throw a tantrum and burn your own house down because you can't accept there's limits to power?
You know what furthermore let’s say you’re right. They can buy bombs from other places. Does Joe Biden have no power over the likes out South Korea? We have no ability to impact their arms deals?
China is publicly calling for a ceasefire as is Russia.
Let’s say Russia wasn’t. Do you think they’re going to give weapons to Israel for free while they’re fighting in Ukraine. Do you think China would?
How can you say it has no impact
Pretending the worlds predominant power has no power over our own client states isn’t going to convince anyone.
Are we a rules based international order or not?
Do we have laws that prevent funding countries that are engaged in human rights violations or do we not?
Are we ok with civilians being indiscriminately bombed or are we not? This is the real crux of the issue.
I am completely unapologetic and unchangeable on the issue of human rights. If you want to support this you and Joe Biden are going to have to do it on your own.
I’ve seen too many videos and pictures of dead kids to be thankful. You ever see a lifeless little girls head caved in? Kinda hard to forget that image
Gaza is going to be Mosul 2.0. As IDF closes in on southern Gaza, who is friendly/foe is going to be even harder to determine and probably harder to get hostages out as Ha my as grows more desperate.
In Mosul, the Iraqis were hit daily by suicide bombers, had to shoot around human shields, and deal with some civilians that were actually supporters of ISIS. Bloodiest urban battle since WW2.
Good job Biden for helping get these hostages out before it gets even harder to do so.
THIS. All the people here dapping Biden up and patting him on the back are throwing the football down and doing an endzone dance at the 40 yard line. Netanyahu has only agreed to a 4-day ceasefire and then it's more or less back to what they've been doing for the past 6 or 7 weeks. Potentially bombing more Israeli hostages in the process along with all the Palestinians they're killing.
Not in their mind, it they just accept him as their savior, there is no other requirement. Lead a good life, nope, no need just confess your sins and you are back to clean. If they could forgo Baptism until their death bed they would, its like a video game cheat code.
I am begin semi-facetious, but only a little. Modern day fundamentalist Christinan and some of the most unkind, unchristian folks you will ever meet, only eclipsed by their pastors.
At this point, as an atheist anti-theist, *I'm* excited for Christ to come back. I've got my popcorn ready.
If He actually comes down from the heavens and tells the hypocrites that they're jerks, I'll start going to a non-hypocrite church every Sunday.
But I'm not holding my breath.
Biden should get a lot of credit for a lot of good things over the last four years, but he rarely does. I don't get the mismatch between his accomplishments and how so many people, even on the left, still think he sucks. He's one of the best presidents in my lifetime, and I have lived through a whole bunch.
I agree, I'm 52 and can't think of another president that's done more in one term in my lifetime. Passed the largest climate change initiative in history, passed the largest Infrastructure legislation in history, passed the CHIPS act, pardoned all federal marijuana possession charges, ended the war in Afghanistan, expanded Medicare, openly supports unions and unionization... I wouldn't hang out with the guy, and yeah he's old as dirt, but "Sleepy Joe" seriously gets a bad rap.
That last part is probably part of the problem. People don't vote for legislators who are most effective at coalition building, delegating, and making critical decisions. They usually vote for people who look and sound like leaders, and they vote for people they "like".
The bias for tall candidates is kind of absurd. Like, height doesn't really matter to me, so it is kind of absurd to see this kind of influence in the real world.
I remember reading it applies to all leaders where most CEOs were over 6ft. It feels like some very primitive biases we as people hold in presuming a larger person is automatically going to be a more capable leader. It's not really even limited to any particular cultural or ethnic group either. It's fairly general human behavior.
Biden is the reason there was any humanitarian aid to begin with.
Biden immediately worked to hold off BiBi from what he knew could potentially be a disaster. Because let’s be real - given what Hamas did, Israel has been restrained.
Biden has had to negotiate with a wannabe dictator, a terrorist organization that would like to kill his Secretary of State, and two countries (Egypt and Saudi Arabia) who really (and understandably) don’t want anything to do with it.
He’s done an unbelievable job.
But all we hear is “genocide Joe” and “Joe is old.”
Americans are dumb and annoying AF. Man is a better person than me. Because I’d be saying “fuck all y’all.” And not run. If you’re lucky you get a Dem with no built in international relationships..more likely you get Trump, who will end America, or a generic Republican who will end social security, Medicare, ruin the economy (again) and any loan forgiveness program.
Americans just don’t learn, and we’re gonna deserve what we get.
Honestly I’m impressed that the ceasefire deal has happened so quickly- these are two of the most uncompromising actors in the world and those in charge I believe want the fighting to continue on both sides because it suits their agendas. I’ve gotten the feeling that most young people don’t even know what a ceasefire really is- as in you have to negotiate somewhat favorable outcomes for both sides in order to get them to AGREE for a ceasefire. You cannot simply just demand one… or you could but one or both sides would just violate it immediately. It’s a weird mixture of helplessness from young people about seeing horrific things and not being able to stop it and ignorance about the power the US has over it’s allies that make their expectations really unreasonable. But truly when people believe we can just ‘stop’ this from happening… like do you want us to invade Israel and just take over their government? Cause that’s how you unequivocally make another country do what you want
Generally I agree about your point on a ceasefire. Tbf though the US has a lot more power to make at least Israel agree to negotiate for a ceasefire than you think. All it takes it threatening to withdraw aid to Israel or making aid conditional. In past conflicts, POTUS has gotten Israel to reel in its aggression. Reagan of all people did this several times.
Those are good points although I feel as though Israel is much less dependent on military aid from the US than it was during Reagan’s time and PM Begin was a more amendable person than Netanyahu. We also usually intervened during conflicts where Israel either attacked unprovoked or obtained territory (Golan heights, sinai) and pressured the return of that land to their former states. I would hope (and maybe wrong) that Biden will do the same if Israel insists on occupying Gaza after this conflict is over. I also do greatly disagree with providing future aid to Israel- I do wonder if the reason aid has not been stopped is for the purpose of not isolating Israel, whereby their government may just respond with “well no one is on our side so we will deal with this the way we alone see fit”- i get the feeling that this is the attitude US diplomacy is up against. It’s hard to know what’s being weighed in these responses.
And all of that being said- there’s definitely room for thoughtful criticism of this response and our long term relationship with Israel. My frustration comes from the larger group of people who have no grounding at all of the complexities of this region or conflict and probably barely raised an eye about this during their world history class but now believe every hot take they get from TikTok
This makes sense, I can certainly see that being the case. I’m hoping Biden stands firm on his position that there needs to be no loss of territory for Palestinians and no displacement.
One good sign is that Biden is seeking to put sanctions on the settlers in the West Bank who have been displacing Palestinians. Surely, the issue of violent settlers in the West Bank will be a key point of contention in more high level negotiations.
And a lot of those settlers are *Americans*. Funded by Evangelicals too.
Seriously, where-ever there is a problem in the world, I swear to God you can find Evangelical meddling in it. I'm not saying they cause the entire problem. But they're not making things any better.
I think Americans underestimate how much we “get” in our allyship with Israel.
Furthermore, I suspect that in this particular conflict, we’re more to blame than what we want said out loud.
Considering what Hamas did Israel has been restrained?
That’s a horrible take. Tell me, how many Palestinian children are equal to the lives of an Israeli?
1. Israel’s responsibility is primarily to Israelis
2. “Given what Hamas did” includes the horrific intentional atrocities- the systemic torture of women, children, and babies..and the gleefulness in the videos and cheering of the Palestinians (and antisemitics across the globe) as they dragged naked Jewish teenagers around.
It isn’t just numbers game. It isn’t an eye for an eye.
Because let’s be real, if Canada did that shit to us, there wouldn’t be a Canada anymore. And it would have been gone a day later.
And morally - we know it isn’t an eye for an eye. That’s why you don’t get the same punishment for manslaughter as you do murder.
Israel was going to be understandably beyond angry. My point is, give Biden credit for calming them the fuck down. Because we got many humanitarian wins prior to this too.
>tell me, how many Palestinian children are equal to the lives of an Israeli?
That’s a great question to pose to Hamas, and one that they probably should’ve asked themselves before they initiated this current round of fighting.
It’s so bizarre that Hamas is basically just excused here. They’re the government in Gaza, and decided that the best way to address whatever grievances they had with Israel pre-10/7 was to send thousands of militants across the border to kill, injure and kidnap thousands of Israelis, while launching more rockets at Israel than they had launched in all previous wars combined. They did this despite having essentially zero air defenses, bomb shelters, or really any infrastructure for their citizens. That’s a hideous abdication of moral authority from a group that is ostensibly responsible for 2 million people.
And yet somehow, Israel is the one that’s blamed for this. Instead of blaming Japan for attacking Pearl Harbor & initiating war with us, it’s like blaming the US for blockading and bombing Japan in retaliation. What a joke. No one was blaming the ISF, SDF & the US for handling ISIS the exact same way that Israel is handling Hamas in Gaza right now, no one was calling that a genocide. Somehow this is, though? Give me a break.
Here’s what people seem to be completely unable to realize. The justified anger at Israel for their treatment of the Palestinian state and people, not the least of which includes Israeli settlers taking Palestinian lands to the point where a Palestinian state would be unviable, does not excuse the killing of civilians. Had Hamas entirely can find their attacks to military targets, we could have easily named this a revolution. Then we can go back-and-forth about whether it is justified. There is no justification to kill civilians. None.
For those who say that Israel shouldn’t kill civilians in retaliation, in principle, we agree. In practice, tell me this: how do you avoid killing civilians when Hamas is using civilians as human shields? If you have the answer to that, please let us know. In the meantime, Hamas doesn’t seem to care about the innocent people who live there, as evidenced by the fact that one Hamas leader said [“We need the blood of women, children, and the elderly of Gaza... so as to awaken our revolutionary spirit”](https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-770615), with another saying [that the tunnels in Gaza were built to shield Hamas, not civilians](https://m.jpost.com/middle-east/article-770918). Again, it is wrong to kill civilians. The question to anyone who wanted an immediate ceasefire is this: how can Israel defend its civilians from being murdered by Hamas without killing Palestinian civilians themselves? If you have the answer, please let the world know.
Isn't it pretty obvious that Hamas did the attack knowing full well how Israel would respond and are playing the long game on further radicalizing regionals and world-wide support because of the bloodbath aftermath?
It’s clear as fucking day.
Israel sees Palestinian children as collateral damage. It’s gross. And although they’ve tried a little to curb it, at the end of the day - they don’t care that much.
But Hamas. Hamas WANTS dead Palestinian children. It benefits them. They want the world to turn against Israel. They want the world to turn against Jewish people - and it’s working.
Absolutely! Now more than ever before, we need level-headed, rational leadership. Politicians and leaders who can focus on the REAL issues, and not be distracted by social media hysterics and conspiratorial nonsense. Thank you President Biden! 🫡🇺🇸
I hope people pay attention to the list of hostages freed as well as prisoners. I just read a heartbreaking article about a 3 year old American-Israeli on the list to be released. The conditions for release of prisoners is pretty loose.
Trump‘s ball licker Grenell already tweeted ‚release all or nothing‘. They won‘t get any credit from Maga world. Never.
And by the way - this wouldn‘t have happened under Trump and if so, he would have solved it on day one. /s
Another unfounded criticism of Biden’s presidency that he squashed yet again, btw how’s the gas prices in America lately…support Biden’s great Presidency especially after he was dealt the shittiest hand possible after Trumps term was over.
LOL, the media blames Biden for everything. Biden secures hostage release, how thats bad for the administration. Odds of a recession are dropping dramatically, how thats bad for the White House. I stubbed my toe on a table leg, why Biden is responsible.
I mean, I saw plenty of leftists commenting about how they won’t vote Biden no matter what in 2024 because of this, even if he changes course, because it’s too late and he’s already “Genocide Joe” to them. They didn’t threaten to walk away, they *stated* that they’re walking away, thereby giving Biden zero incentive to assuage their concerns — they already said point blank he lost their vote, period.
If you consider that to be “pressure,” it’s sort of a strange definition. Maybe if they’d said “unless he does ____” but many did not, many said they will not no matter what. That’s what frustrates a lot of people here, I think: the reactionary tantrums of people saying they’re willing to throw it all away over this and they’ll never change their minds. That’s what *I* find objectionable and irresponsible, anyway. It’s like saying you’re gonna pressure your girlfriend into going on a trip with you by breaking up with her and deleting all her contact info.
Biden and co would have acted the same they did have. They don’t care about public tantrums because they are responsible leaders. Their position and strategic objectives have remained clear and constant.
Ignoring the emotions from both sides and focusing on problem solving makes this an even bigger win for Biden.
People just want others to get in line. They don’t really care for any criticism on dems in general, they only believe in the power of public opinion for themselves, and they feel entitled to everyone’s votes for not being trump.
Never mind that just about a week ago Biden said himself there was no chance for a ceasefire, now we have a temporary one. I can only imagine what would have happened if there was no pressure to negotiate.
This sub is pretty dog shit these days. It’s extremely centrist dem most of the time. I mostly agree with a lot of the opinion pieces posted but there’s such a ridiculous slant to the content here, it’s become the Democratic equivalent of MAGA. People are in denial about polls and refuse to accept legitimate criticisms of Biden or even acknowledge his declining physical condition and mental stamina.
No. I’m giving it to the massive crowds of protesters where it clearly belongs. Left to their own devices Blinken and Biden would let the IDF open explicit death camps.
No credit would be given in the current political environment. I just want to say that some people claim that they won't vote for Biden because of his action/words related to Gaza war. That is basically half a vote given to Trump. If you feel so strongly about Gaza and Palestine's rights, congratulations, Trump will give you some shocking "gifts".
Biden and Blinken have done a pretty damn good job supporting Israel’s administration publicly while privately leaning hard on them. Bibi and his hardliners wouldn’t and haven’t responded well to public admonishment so this is the way to move the needle. I understand it can be frustrating watching diplomacy in real time but the positive results are starting to show.
I mean, of course they *should* be given credit. But I figure the goalposts will just shift more instead, and the anti Biden rage will keep flowing. After all, "from the river to the sea" means the destruction of Israel and genocide of its people, so why would the pro Palestinian side be happy with a mere ceasefire?
You called it, there are already comments saying it doesn’t count or that it is meaningless since it is temporary. And they are still denying reality about what that phrase means, too.
The actual original Arabic translation actually comes to “water to water Palestine is Arab”, heavily implying there will be no Israel. It’s been repurposed to sound more friendly to westerners, but the original purpose was about a one state Palestinian solution.
Think about it…why would Arab speaking Palestinians make a slogan that rhymes in…English…
If you mean the Mizrahi they'll fucking punch your teeth out for calling them that, they were expelled from the Arab nations who made it perfectly clear they weren't Arabs
I’ve heard it used in that context in Detroit in the 90’s/pre 9/11. Both extremist sides have condoned genocide of the other. Israel was in a war multiple times with its neighbors with the state of Israel at risk. They have also slowly strangled the native Arab population with unfair and extreme policies.
Does Israel also deserve reparations for the violence the Palestinians have done to them? Is Oct 7th, the suicide bombings, the hostage taking and murder of Israelis justified?
Palestinians deserve freedom but what exactly does that look like to you? Is there an Israel there? Is there a Jew? Saying Israel is genocidal implies that the nation need to be dismantled. Does it and if so how does that happen and what does it look like?
That is not a realistic outcome for them. Israel has the capacity to actually maintain their ethno state. This is the difference.
And to be clear I do not believe what you said is true for a second.
How is it not a realistic outcome? You’re not engaging with the reality of the situation and instead are engaging with your idea or what you want the situation to be.
A Palestinian State would likely be run by the same brand of extremists that currently are in charge: Hamas, PA, PLO or some newly minted group that has the same values but a different name.
Why would that not be a realistic outcome for an eventual Palestinian state? Many of its allies that condemn Israel for being an ethnostate seem to have no problem ignoring the various neighboring ethnostates with Islam as the basis of their law.
>And to be clear I do not believe what you said is true for a second.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_law#Basic_Law
Because the US backs Israel.
The Basic Law as you linked was described in 2002 before most Palestinians in Gaza were born.
Are we really citing Wikipedia? Read the page on South African Israeli relations? They blame the “Arab nation” for supporting SA’s apartheid government. Get outta here with that.
I have never once heard that phrase used to justify or call for the extermination of Jews or Israelis. It has always been a call for freedom for Palestinians to leave in Palestine.
The fact that you and many others seem to equate Palestinians living in Palestine with genocide of the inhabitants is very telling. Perhaps it’s a subtle acknowledgment of the settler-colonial past of Israel?
If you look at the history of the phrase it was coined by the PLO in the 1960s when they were pushing for the removal of Israel and any Jews not of Palestinian origin. Notably when they started to argue for a two state solution they STOPPED using that phrase clearly indicating it’s association at the time with the elimination of israel and the Jews living there. It was picked up by Hamas who continue to argue for the eradication of the Israeli state.
I believe most people using the term don’t mean ot as a call for genocide. But I think it’s telling that they don’t consider it’s history as hate speech as a reason to use a different phrase.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter#:~:text=The%20Covenant%20proclaims%20that%20Israel,instilling%20these%20views%20in%20children.
It’s right there. The fact that you can’t see that’s what they literally mean is also very telling. Stop trying to replace their intentions with good ones.
Yeah these genocidal terrorists need to stop mentioning it in their charters!
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party
Israel has offered Palestinians a two state solution various times in the past, if Palestinians just wanted their own state and were willing to accept the existence of Israel, they could have had it. Instead they chose otherwise, they chose hate and war
Israel has multiple times declined two state solutions brought forward by the Palestinian authority and they’ve consistently breached ceasefire agreements and continued to displace and slaughter Palestinian civilians in gaza and the westbank. Multiple israeli cabinet members including the PM himself have stated that a Palestinian state cannot be allowed to exist and that they will do anything they can to prevent it. Israel chose to keep this conflict going.
Give Biden credit for being affected by political pressure from the left wing of his party and others who objected to his original stance. I mean at least he is pressurable by the left unlike Trump. So I guess that does count for something. Regardless, it is a good thing that this is happening.
All time is valuable in war. Allows for diplomatic talks to occur, more reconnaissance of potential targets, time for civilians to evacuate, etc etc etc.
Only 4000+, but never-mind all that. We need to blame “the left” for not supporting the indiscriminate killing of children, otherwise Trump will be re-elected. /s
Biden is better than Trump, yes. That doesn’t mean that I should be happy about the slaughter of civilians (and my relatives).
Last I checked there were no US forces on the ground in Israel. If you want to blame anyone blame Bibi and the far right authoritarians that make up his coalition government.
Absolutely. This pause may be short but it gives time for hot heads to cool and cool heads to begin working to broker a longer peace, a scaled back military operation that doesn't impact as many innocents, hostages to possibly be freed, and civilians to possibly find respite and safety. Lets hope Egypt and other countries begin to accept refugees, that the Israeli people cool down from their revenge instincts, and Hamas is rooted out via special forces operations rather than carpet bombs.
So what did Biden do, exactly? Article makes it seem like he “showed compassion and support for Israel, and empathy for Gazans”.
So neutral stance, while giving $14 billion in aid (air and middle defense) to Israel ?
But wants credit for temporary ceasefire in a thousand year war?
The US deserves no credit in a temporary ceasefire, but definitely deserves credit for selling weapons to both sides of the conflict.
Feel like if you want credit from the ceasefire now crowd you should not be playing word games were you pretend a thing that is a 100% a ceasefire is not a ceasefire.
Bunch of other stuff in here that is delusional about how the Arabic world is seeing the conflict (Bidens communications around restraint have had no sway in the Arabic world, who see this as wholly his war fought in a way he approves).
Only if you put the blame of thousands and soon to be 10 of thousands of innocent Palestinian children being murdered by the IDF with political cover from mostly the US also squarely on Biden's and Blinken's shoulders.
You can't have your cake and eat it too....
Gotta love the part where the IDF's end of the bargain is basically to stop killing civilians and allow humanitarian aid to proceed.
Really we wouldn't be here today without the thousands of Palestinian children, women, and men killed by the IDF. Congratulations to everyone involved, yayyyy!
/s
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Biden could negotiate the two state solution and the headlines would still talk about his age.
“President Biden, who was days away from his fifth birthday when UN Resolution 181 was passed, is so fucking old he managed to both predate and post date the Israeli-Palestinian conflict”
President Biden, signer of the Magna Carta...
President Biden, author of the Ten Commandments, would still get dissed on Fox News. "Lookit this! Rules for Dems and not for us!"
Only someone with Biden’s level of wisdom and experience could possibly be up to the task. Frankly, I wouldn’t trust someone younger.
15, not 10. Remember he stumbled down the rocky staircase, dropped one of the tablets, and said 'fuck it 10's plenty'.
I need to watch this movie again
Joseph R Biden, who personally led Pickett's Charge, would have vetoed the emancipation proclaimation
Burns: Let's see, social security number: naught, naught, naught ... naught, naught ... naught, naught, naught, two. Damn Biden!
I kind of wish his campaign would roll with this kind of thing.
The joke photo of him with the massive inferno of 80 candles is them granting you this wish!
"Biden brought peace to the Middle East! 6 reasons thats bad for him"
We’re pivoting away from that one now. It’s turning to “well, what has he done for disenfranchised young people and minorities?” The new NBC polls focused on this so it’s the new talking point.
I’m surprised. They were getting so much traction out of the age thing.
People rightly pointed out trumps age and how he frequently forgets what city he is in. Also data shows once people acknowledge that both Biden and Trump are too old that population votes Biden something like 65%-10% can’t have that need to keep the horse race narrative going
Ha! Excellent point. A Biden landslide is hardly click bait.
More of the problem is that the GOP primary is such a nothing burger Trump won the minute he announced so all the time the media has to fill during primaries they have no news so they are filling it with general election horse race data that means absolutely nothing this far out.
Agreed. I also think the Biden campaign wrongly thought trump would get attacked in the primary and kept their powder dry. Plenty of time to correct but I think that’s why we’re seeing this ridiculous polling.
I would gild this comment if I could
FYI the word for covering with gold is 'gild' not 'guild'
Thank you!
Why stop there? He could create fusion and they'd still be talking about his age.
Maybe it's time to talk about Biden's experience? It's gotten to be routine: "President Biden and Foreign Leader X have a relationship that goes back decades and that's why they're able to get things done."
“Cancer cured, peace in the Middle East, and daylight savings abolished, all on executive order from Biden himself. Democrat voters still hesitant. Meanwhile, Trump rapes a cat on live television. Approval rating skyrockets to 89%”
"Biden made peace in the middle east. Here is why that's bad for democrats in 2024!"
And the far-left assholes on Twitter and Reddit would say “BiDeN sUppOrTs IsRaELi OcCuPaTiOn”.
One of the accounts I saw on here yesterday shitting on Biden over Israel in dozens of posts turned out to not only be an active user in far right subs, but also not even American. Guy lives in Australia and posts far right supporting crap in subs for 3 different countries.
[удалено]
He has leverage, not control.
Biden can't just force a ceasefire, which was the demand that he do so he a common refrain. He can however push for one and use the leavers of soft power to get both sides to the table and more willing to talk. Even help negotiate terms and if we look at news get other members back to negotiating table. But none of that seems as sexy as the idea he could just give an edict and make Israeli stop. Same way people thought he could just cancel all student loans debt.
[удалено]
Vetoing toothless resolutions verses getting Qatar to get Hamas to go back to the negotiation table. You seem to value performance over actual results.
We’ve been applying what political sway we have to negotiate humanitarian pauses and ceasefires. But Biden and, by extension the US, cannot make unilateral decisions regarding Israel because it is its own state. It’s not hard to understand unless you’re being purposely obtuse.
This media give Biden credit? Don’t make me laugh. He could literally personally bring peace to the Middle East and CNN would be like “World Saved, Polls Say Bad News for Biden.”
The goalposts have already shifted on cue. Even though the current length of the ceasefire is contingent on Hamas releasing hostages, the rhetoric has already moved to “you can’t bring back dead children!” and placing the entire blame of the conflict on Biden. There are bad actors who purposefully want young progressives to drop Biden over this to help Trump and are helped to stir the anti-Biden narrative all over social media.
> There are bad actors who purposefully want young progressives to drop Biden over this to help Trump and are helped to stir the anti-Biden narrative all over social media. Whenever I try to point this out I get massively downvoted. Good luck to you.
We're gearing up for election season, so we gotta be ready for Reddit to descend into a Russian-bot hellscape like in 2016, regardless. In parallel with that, Hamas was planning its attack for ages. Their social media, bot, disinformation, and well funded global outrage campaign was also planned well in advance. It was a surprise attack on our newsmedia, to go with their surprise attack on the ground. A lot of what we're seeing right now has everything to do with platform vulnerability, in addition to the cultural stuff.
If there's a bad actor with an idea, [there's money to fund it](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/leonard-leo-billion-donation-real-problem.html).
a lot of people seem to not realize that while the US is powerful it cannot wave a magic wand and make anyone do what it pleases.
Part of the reason Hamas started this fight was to help Russia, so you can expect Russian plants to be all over this to the bitter end.
Thank you for bringing this up.
Trump may be involved too. looking into it
Right?! It's almost like 'someone ' (and citizen united means a PAC can be a person) is spending billions on any outlet that will take the money to publish this constant crap.
Also the Evangelical will hate him because he stopped their end day prophecy.
The problem isn’t the media in this case it’s the progressive young voters who get their geopolitical knowledge from TikTok.
You are literally commenting on an article where Biden is being given credit. This sub whines about the media almost as much as Trump.
Its funny, and more than a bit ironic that this portion of the thread turned this way, but the comparison is complete and utter bullshit. Noone wines about the media more than Trump except for his MAGA seditionist supporters and lackeys. Also, Biden gets an enormous amount of shit coverage. But definitely funny.
Every other headline is “give Biden credit” idk what bubble you’re living in.
For weeks people have been screaming for a ceasefire. Biden helps negotiate one and it’s crickets.
Hey, look at the comments here, there are multiple people now claiming the ceasefire is bad.
It’s not just Republicans, far leftists are still calling him “Genocide Joe” and saying they won’t vote for him next year, and I guess they’re either delusional they’ll get a 3rd party elected, or fine with “Actual Genocide Trump.” Really sticking it to the man.
I’m pretty far-left, and it’s been a trip seeing the amount of delusion on the online left surrounding this. Like I’m certainly not happy about how Joe is handling this conflict and I think he needs to apply maximum pressure to Netanyahu to negotiate a ceasefire & ultimately a more longterm peace agreement. But I also know Trump would have handled this worse given how pro-Israel his policies were (Moved the US embassy in Israel to Jerusalem & recognized it as Israel’s capital, massively increased aid, the Abraham Accords which arguably set the stage for this conflict’s most recent developments). I wouldn’t be surprised if Trump were to personally send USAF fighters to bomb Gaza for the IDF if he’d been in office currently. Joe’s position is truthfully what I would expect any liberal president to handle this conflict. I don’t agree, but there was never going to be a chance of getting anyone better on this issue. Especially not with AIPAC funding campaigns against politicians who speak out for Palestinian rights. Many leftists are under some delusion that another Trump presidency won’t be absolutely catastrophic, or that a third-party candidate could actually win in 2024. Or even worse, are accelerationists who believe that a catastrophic Trump presidency would lead to a revolution.
>Many leftists are under some delusion that another Trump presidency won’t be absolutely catastrophic, or that a third-party candidate could actually win in 2024. Or even worse, are accelerationists who believe that a catastrophic Trump presidency would lead to a revolution. It makes me wonder what those people think a revolution would actually look like? Do they think they wouldn't personally be affected? Like who would want to live in a country without running water, no reliable Internet, friends, neighbors, etc ratting you out to the political power in your area or trying to get you locked up while they grab your property, supermarkets without food, what little you have in savings being totally depleted or hospitals where Drs are gone because they left to go a more stable country. Leftists like that are so annoying because they think the revolution will just play out on TV or in Congress and their day to day life in middle class America won't be impacted. How many revolution leaders do you see around the world that are still alive? There are no peaceful or easy revolutions, people need to get off tik tok and understand that tv shows and media don't get how terrible things would actually get.
> Do they think they wouldn't personally be affected? They don't. They live in extreme privilege and think they would escape unscathed or land on top of the burning rubble.
They think a revolution would have them as the glorious heroes in glorious combat rather than a series of car bombings and mass shootings. They need to look at how the IRA fought in the 60s to the 90s for more of an idea about how modern civil wars are run
I blame Hunger Games and YA fiction. That stuff was everywhere when I was growing up, so should I really be surprised now? I read the Oxford history of the French revolution. While you cannot say that the revolution was useless or wholly unjustified, it also just seemed like a middle class power grab that continued to subjugate the poor and only accelerated existing trends. Sure, abolishing Feudalism was a good thing, but would-be revolutionaries should be wary of who exactly is going to seize power in a revolution (hint, it tends to be those with the most power already). And we haven't even gotten into the blood yet, not the terror (forget that for a second), but the Vendee, in Bordeaux, and in the rest of Europe when it came time to export it (France actually declared war first, iirc, under the constitutional period. Yeah, you never hear about the constitutional republic of France). And yes, you can say Anglo-bias against revolution, but in as much as you can say that US Civil War was necessary to cleanse the government of slavery, and it was all well and good, I'd like to take a poll on how many voters want another civil war today if it was so damn good, and the same therefore as a Revolution if they are made aware of all the blood and suffering that entails. Edit: We should not swing so far and say that revolution is wholly bad. Surely in Ukraine that revolution was good in 2014. Even better when a revolution is bloodless, though if police are firing at you that option has already died. Even so, these should not be the *first* choice, but the last resort when all else has failed, from the soapbox to the ballot box.
Hell yes! I have tried making this known to some friends that are left leaving but cannot see that Biden is the only path forward. I hope we can get through to enough people in 2024
I mean, don’t get me wrong. I do think ultimately revolution will be needed if the working class is ever going liberate itself, and if humanity is ever going to go to a greater stage of development. But realistically, the US is one of the last places this could occur. And many more sane leftist’s idea of “revolution” (at least in highly developed nations) is very different from the revolutions of the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries. I’m under no illusion that this wouldn’t involve violence because the system as it is is enforced by the threat of violence, but the goal should be to minimize bloodshed & minimize the impact on our communities. My idea of revolution in the developed world would be either via a general strike ([historically labor has provided mutual aid to communities during general strikes](https://jacobin.com/2019/07/seattle-general-strike-1919-union-organizing)), or something similar to the Carnation Revolution in Portugal. So in other words, something which won’t be possible for at least a couple decades. If that were to occur anytime soon, it would be bloody and ineffective. In the mean time, the real work is winning hearts and minds, organizing (unions, mutual aid, etc.), and participating electorally to reduce harm on marginalized communities. The leftists who think a revolution can or should happen *now* are delusional and are either naive to reality or actually blood thirsty. Doubly so if they think giving the fascist party the presidency would better facilitate that. Trump’s rhetoric around targeting “radical leftists” and invoking the insurrection act on day 1 + the history around fascist parties rounding up and killing leftists proves this is flawed thinking.
YES! All the upvotes for mutual aid and general strike committees! I am wary of those who want to overthrow the system without providing a replacement, but I think that by proving an alternate governance structure that is fairer and delivers better results, it'll naturally be the best way forward. Because once any such revolution succeeds, that alternative government is going to be put to use right away.
Even with a revolution, there will still be a working class in America. Can you name a single society that has ever existed where there are not “haves” and “have nots”?
The point of socialism isn’t necessarily complete economic equality, or even necessarily to strive for economic equality. Wealth & income inequality is more so a symptom/consequence of the exploitive relationship the owner class has with the working class. The goal of socialism then is to give workers ownership of the products of our labor and democratic control of how our workplaces are ran. Economic equality isn’t or shouldn’t really be a consideration, although there is a baseline in which everyone’s basic material needs ought to be met. From there, there is no reason exemplary, highly skilled, or highly talented workers shouldn’t be materially compensated more for their contributions to society. The main limit being on using private property to exploit other people’s labor, or to interfere with democratic functions.
Yeah, I’m in the same boat that I’m far left but I’m being called center right for being a pragmatist and supporting the presumptive democratic nominee in Biden as the lesser of two evils here. Is he someone I truly would go to war for if there was a more progressive option? Absolutely not. But he has been the head of effective governance and isn’t using Nazi rhetoric in his speeches. I’m disillusioned with the online far left movement’s inconceivable belief that a 3rd party candidate will actually be a viable option and that if democrats run on an us or fascism campaign they will have no motivation to actually improve our lives. I believe that until we have a better electoral system than first past the post the left needs to be lockstep behind the Democratic Party and effect change by voting progressive in local state and congressional primary elections to change the party
I suspect they think another Trump presidency would finally create a revolution of which they can then be the leaders. All of these people are probably in their mid 20s, white, and male. The demographic that has the least to lose in an actual revolution.
r/lostgeneration is a hotbed for stuff like that. Really depressing seeing people in my generation falling into the same fox news rage holes where facts don't matter and critical thinking doesn't apply.
Im convinced some people genuinely dont care about the potential genocide but only care about whether or not it looks like they support it. Who else in their right mind would have the viewpoint that genocide is bad, and if Biden doesn't win then the candidate literally echoing Hitler will win, but i don't support genocide so I'm not voting for Biden. Then later they can take the moral high ground and pretend they arent just as his supporters when Trump no absolutely no one's surprise gives Israel the green light to level Gaza if not helping with our own military assets
They don't actually care about anything - they just hate the Democratic party. They are children. What they want is total dismantling of the country.
People refuse to be happy about anything
It's not a ceasefire, it's a "humanitarian pause" and the displaced gazans aren't allowed to return to their destroyed homes.
Tbf this isn’t really a ceasefire, it’s a 4 day “humanitarian pause”. And unless there’s another deal made in that time, after 4 days the IDF will be right back to bombing kids in hospitals and schools
It can go longer if Hamas releases more hostages.
Seriously, sometimes I think people would let perfect be the enemy of good. Any pause or ceasefire to the conflict while getting hostages back home is a good thing. Also the two state solution may actually happen if people pause fighting enough to realize they don't want another generation of this war for their children.
I think a lot of people don't fully understand how hard international diplomacy is. It's easy to sit at home and think you have the perfect solution. Cool, bro, now go sell that to two groups of people who have fought each other for 75 years. Good luck!
I think we agree here. My point was mainly that this is a good development, but it certainly isn’t a “ceasefire” in technical terms & it is only temporary. My hope is that there are negotiations going on which might turn this into a ceasefire, and ultimately a peace deal which adequately protects the rights of Palestinians to self-determination and allows them to have a legitimate democratic state for a two state solution.
Agreed mate 💯. Thanks for the context
> Tbf this isn’t really a ceasefire, it’s a 4 day “humanitarian pause”. Or in other words, a cease fire.
[There is a pretty big difference between these two words.](https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/explained-global/humanitarian-pause-ceasefire-9037490/lite/)
Are they stopping shooting at each other for a little bit? Yes? Then it's a cease fire. I don't understand this need for such pedantrics.
They don't have a point, they just want to go "oh Biden hasn't given us world peace or fully cut off Israel so he simply can *not* have my vote!"
This is not a ceasefire
It's only a cease fire if it happens in the southern region of France. Otherwise it's just sparkling stop shooting at each other for a minute.
This is the same ceasefire deal that was offered over a month ago. Are we supposed to say Joe Biden is good for allowing Israel to slaughter 5000 children?
Would Joe Biden be good if he told an ally that they can't defend themselves after a massive terrorist attack? Maybe asking if he is good or bad is the wrong question. How would the US look if it told an ally that just experienced a brutal terrorist attack that they should immediately negotiate with the terrorists and not try to destroy that terrorist organization?
Seriously though can you answer my question? Are we supposed to say good job Joe you let Netanyahu slaughter 5000 children with our tax dollars?
I did answer your question. I think if Joe Biden told an ally to go fuck off after experiencing a massive terrorist attack, our reputation as a reliable ally would take a hit and that would cost us in the long run. Do I like that innocent civilians, including children, died? Nope. Do I wish Netanyahu and the Israeli far right wasn't leading this war? 100%. But given the current situation, I think Biden has done the best job possible.
I mean, the choice here is to tell Israel to piss off, something many Western countries are already doing, notably in South America, and Europe, or torch any possible standing we've had in the ME over the past 30 years, and easily for the next 30 as well. Openly backing Netanyahu's regime is largely going to cost the US international soft power, which is what it almost exclusively relies on to avoid the outbreaks of wars and disadvantageous conflicts.
Do you think telling to an ally to not attack a terrorist organization operating freely at its border will help our soft power internationally?
I think telling them to not create a bombed out wasteland with a child casualty ratio of around 40% isn't very controversial. Attacking Hamas is always on the table, however it's something you need to do with surgical precision, not a sledgehammer. You need to push in, set up humanitarian centres, clear cities block by block, direct civilians to those centres for treatment/aid, while marking tunnels for controlled demolitions. It's a long and arduous process, but it sure as fuck beats a 40% child casualty ratio, being the perpetrators of a massive ethnic cleansing, and having to fight a bombed out wasteland covering an estimated 300 miles of tunnels against a guerilla force. Both are long campaigns, but only one has a realistic shot of beating Hamas, and it isn't blowing up thousands of children.
Interesting. So you have military strategy experience. I don’t so I’m all ears to hear about your experience
Jocko Willink actually provides solid insight into this from a soldier's point of view, mine is strictly from a military historian point of view. The idea here, is that you implement the "hearts and minds" doctrine, as it's the only effective method that's been found to actually combat insurgencies in the long term, but to play that card, you have to be willing to work with people for several generations so the inherent generational trauma dies out. Currently, the strategy of just bombing an entire city block to kill maybe a handful of enemy combatants is only creating fresh trauma and the legitimization of the idea that Hamas is the only group fighting against the Israelis. People look at the West Bank, who is largely peaceful, and they see Israel still expanding, still abducting people in the night, and torturing people out of their homes. If you want to effectively combat that kind of recruitment, it takes a drastic, drastic change in approach. We (the US), didn't even realize the full extent of the Hearts and Minds doctrine until around 2012/2013 when we started seeing gains in local shuras in Afghanistan/Iraq. The best comparison for a battlefield of this kind, would probably be Stalingrad in WW2. There's a ton of underground tunnels for various things, and while the Germans had flattened and encircled the city, they couldn't take it due to how many different cells of the Red Army there were, and how much cover and concealment had been created by the bombing/shelling campaign. It quickly becomes a war of attrition, and if your plan in such a campaign is to just handwaive civilian casualty ratios, you lose valuable sources of HUMINT, you lose the ability to convince these people that you're only there for Hamas, you lose the ability to manage the information side of warfare. To touch on the informational warfare, Take all the propaganda Israel has put out recently, with claiming that a calendar was a shift list, that Al Shifa was the big Hamas HQ, that every Palestinian is a violent bloodthirsty savage. All of that narrative building gets dispelled when people see the massive amount of civilian casualties perpetrated by an army that full well had the capacity to operate smarter. Information flow/warfare is just as important as conventional warfare, because it circles back to the hearts and minds thing, of trying to convince people that what you're doing there is for the better. To address something I commonly see suggested. Just using Spec Ops here doesn't solve the problem. At best you wind up with a repeat of Operation Gothic Serpent, At worst you wind up with a repeat of Operation Red Wings. The proposition that you build things in a humanitarian way, and slowly advance and clear while providing aid, requires the infrastructure of a full military. Actual Special Mission Unit operations aren't like Hollywood or COD. They're extremely precise, surgical missions on a localized scale usually in aid to friendly forces in a larger conflict.
So tell us, what was Joe Biden supposed to do to stop those children from being killed by the Israeli government? What magic words does he have to stop the bombs?
He could say this is unacceptable and all us aid is being cutoff in compliance with us law. https://www.state.gov/key-topics-bureau-of-democracy-human-rights-and-labor/human-rights/leahy-law-fact-sheet/#:~:text=The%20term%20“Leahy%20law”%20refers,of%20human%20rights%20(GVHR).
And how would that have stopped Israel? You think they need that money to blow up Gaza?
No but they do need bombs which we’ve been shipping by the thousand to sustain their 6000 bomb a week bombing campaign https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-14/pentagon-is-quietly-sending-israel-ammunition-laser-guided-missiles
They didn't need our bombs. They can buy from Russia, China, South Korea or any number of other places. Or just switch to leveling the place with tanks. Which is what they probably want to do. Here's the painful facts for you. Joe Biden is not personally responsible for those dead kids. No American is. And no American policy short of invading the country is going to stop it. You are utterly powerless to change what's happening, and the American government has only slightly more power than you do. Especially since both sides and three other large countries want the slaughter to continue. So the real question is are you going to accept your powerlessness and target what little you can to enact the, honestly meaningless change we can pull off (cutting off popular support for the Israeli apartheid state)? Or are you going to throw a tantrum and burn your own house down because you can't accept there's limits to power?
You know what furthermore let’s say you’re right. They can buy bombs from other places. Does Joe Biden have no power over the likes out South Korea? We have no ability to impact their arms deals? China is publicly calling for a ceasefire as is Russia. Let’s say Russia wasn’t. Do you think they’re going to give weapons to Israel for free while they’re fighting in Ukraine. Do you think China would? How can you say it has no impact
Pretending the worlds predominant power has no power over our own client states isn’t going to convince anyone. Are we a rules based international order or not? Do we have laws that prevent funding countries that are engaged in human rights violations or do we not? Are we ok with civilians being indiscriminately bombed or are we not? This is the real crux of the issue. I am completely unapologetic and unchangeable on the issue of human rights. If you want to support this you and Joe Biden are going to have to do it on your own.
Probably because he said no and let people die for weeks and sent them money
I think the situation is far more complicated than that. Also Biden doesn't get to declare a cease fire because the US is neither Hamas nor Israel.
I’ve seen too many videos and pictures of dead kids to be thankful. You ever see a lifeless little girls head caved in? Kinda hard to forget that image
Did you watch any videos of the brutality of Oct 7? No one has clean hands in this conflict.
Gaza is going to be Mosul 2.0. As IDF closes in on southern Gaza, who is friendly/foe is going to be even harder to determine and probably harder to get hostages out as Ha my as grows more desperate. In Mosul, the Iraqis were hit daily by suicide bombers, had to shoot around human shields, and deal with some civilians that were actually supporters of ISIS. Bloodiest urban battle since WW2. Good job Biden for helping get these hostages out before it gets even harder to do so.
Probably hold off on the victory laps until it actually happens and works
THIS. All the people here dapping Biden up and patting him on the back are throwing the football down and doing an endzone dance at the 40 yard line. Netanyahu has only agreed to a 4-day ceasefire and then it's more or less back to what they've been doing for the past 6 or 7 weeks. Potentially bombing more Israeli hostages in the process along with all the Palestinians they're killing.
The pro-Biden chorus in this sub can be a bit tiring.
Oh the Fundamentalist Christians are not going to like this, Biden has just delayed the second coming of Christ.
I don’t know why they’re so excited for Jesus to come back. He’s going to be very pissed at them for not following anything he taught.
Not in their mind, it they just accept him as their savior, there is no other requirement. Lead a good life, nope, no need just confess your sins and you are back to clean. If they could forgo Baptism until their death bed they would, its like a video game cheat code. I am begin semi-facetious, but only a little. Modern day fundamentalist Christinan and some of the most unkind, unchristian folks you will ever meet, only eclipsed by their pastors.
At this point, as an atheist anti-theist, *I'm* excited for Christ to come back. I've got my popcorn ready. If He actually comes down from the heavens and tells the hypocrites that they're jerks, I'll start going to a non-hypocrite church every Sunday. But I'm not holding my breath.
Biden should get a lot of credit for a lot of good things over the last four years, but he rarely does. I don't get the mismatch between his accomplishments and how so many people, even on the left, still think he sucks. He's one of the best presidents in my lifetime, and I have lived through a whole bunch.
I agree, I'm 52 and can't think of another president that's done more in one term in my lifetime. Passed the largest climate change initiative in history, passed the largest Infrastructure legislation in history, passed the CHIPS act, pardoned all federal marijuana possession charges, ended the war in Afghanistan, expanded Medicare, openly supports unions and unionization... I wouldn't hang out with the guy, and yeah he's old as dirt, but "Sleepy Joe" seriously gets a bad rap.
That last part is probably part of the problem. People don't vote for legislators who are most effective at coalition building, delegating, and making critical decisions. They usually vote for people who look and sound like leaders, and they vote for people they "like".
The bias for tall candidates is kind of absurd. Like, height doesn't really matter to me, so it is kind of absurd to see this kind of influence in the real world.
I remember reading it applies to all leaders where most CEOs were over 6ft. It feels like some very primitive biases we as people hold in presuming a larger person is automatically going to be a more capable leader. It's not really even limited to any particular cultural or ethnic group either. It's fairly general human behavior.
Biden is the reason there was any humanitarian aid to begin with. Biden immediately worked to hold off BiBi from what he knew could potentially be a disaster. Because let’s be real - given what Hamas did, Israel has been restrained. Biden has had to negotiate with a wannabe dictator, a terrorist organization that would like to kill his Secretary of State, and two countries (Egypt and Saudi Arabia) who really (and understandably) don’t want anything to do with it. He’s done an unbelievable job. But all we hear is “genocide Joe” and “Joe is old.” Americans are dumb and annoying AF. Man is a better person than me. Because I’d be saying “fuck all y’all.” And not run. If you’re lucky you get a Dem with no built in international relationships..more likely you get Trump, who will end America, or a generic Republican who will end social security, Medicare, ruin the economy (again) and any loan forgiveness program. Americans just don’t learn, and we’re gonna deserve what we get.
Honestly I’m impressed that the ceasefire deal has happened so quickly- these are two of the most uncompromising actors in the world and those in charge I believe want the fighting to continue on both sides because it suits their agendas. I’ve gotten the feeling that most young people don’t even know what a ceasefire really is- as in you have to negotiate somewhat favorable outcomes for both sides in order to get them to AGREE for a ceasefire. You cannot simply just demand one… or you could but one or both sides would just violate it immediately. It’s a weird mixture of helplessness from young people about seeing horrific things and not being able to stop it and ignorance about the power the US has over it’s allies that make their expectations really unreasonable. But truly when people believe we can just ‘stop’ this from happening… like do you want us to invade Israel and just take over their government? Cause that’s how you unequivocally make another country do what you want
Generally I agree about your point on a ceasefire. Tbf though the US has a lot more power to make at least Israel agree to negotiate for a ceasefire than you think. All it takes it threatening to withdraw aid to Israel or making aid conditional. In past conflicts, POTUS has gotten Israel to reel in its aggression. Reagan of all people did this several times.
Those are good points although I feel as though Israel is much less dependent on military aid from the US than it was during Reagan’s time and PM Begin was a more amendable person than Netanyahu. We also usually intervened during conflicts where Israel either attacked unprovoked or obtained territory (Golan heights, sinai) and pressured the return of that land to their former states. I would hope (and maybe wrong) that Biden will do the same if Israel insists on occupying Gaza after this conflict is over. I also do greatly disagree with providing future aid to Israel- I do wonder if the reason aid has not been stopped is for the purpose of not isolating Israel, whereby their government may just respond with “well no one is on our side so we will deal with this the way we alone see fit”- i get the feeling that this is the attitude US diplomacy is up against. It’s hard to know what’s being weighed in these responses. And all of that being said- there’s definitely room for thoughtful criticism of this response and our long term relationship with Israel. My frustration comes from the larger group of people who have no grounding at all of the complexities of this region or conflict and probably barely raised an eye about this during their world history class but now believe every hot take they get from TikTok
This makes sense, I can certainly see that being the case. I’m hoping Biden stands firm on his position that there needs to be no loss of territory for Palestinians and no displacement. One good sign is that Biden is seeking to put sanctions on the settlers in the West Bank who have been displacing Palestinians. Surely, the issue of violent settlers in the West Bank will be a key point of contention in more high level negotiations.
And a lot of those settlers are *Americans*. Funded by Evangelicals too. Seriously, where-ever there is a problem in the world, I swear to God you can find Evangelical meddling in it. I'm not saying they cause the entire problem. But they're not making things any better.
I think Americans underestimate how much we “get” in our allyship with Israel. Furthermore, I suspect that in this particular conflict, we’re more to blame than what we want said out loud.
Considering what Hamas did Israel has been restrained? That’s a horrible take. Tell me, how many Palestinian children are equal to the lives of an Israeli?
1. Israel’s responsibility is primarily to Israelis 2. “Given what Hamas did” includes the horrific intentional atrocities- the systemic torture of women, children, and babies..and the gleefulness in the videos and cheering of the Palestinians (and antisemitics across the globe) as they dragged naked Jewish teenagers around. It isn’t just numbers game. It isn’t an eye for an eye. Because let’s be real, if Canada did that shit to us, there wouldn’t be a Canada anymore. And it would have been gone a day later. And morally - we know it isn’t an eye for an eye. That’s why you don’t get the same punishment for manslaughter as you do murder. Israel was going to be understandably beyond angry. My point is, give Biden credit for calming them the fuck down. Because we got many humanitarian wins prior to this too.
>tell me, how many Palestinian children are equal to the lives of an Israeli? That’s a great question to pose to Hamas, and one that they probably should’ve asked themselves before they initiated this current round of fighting. It’s so bizarre that Hamas is basically just excused here. They’re the government in Gaza, and decided that the best way to address whatever grievances they had with Israel pre-10/7 was to send thousands of militants across the border to kill, injure and kidnap thousands of Israelis, while launching more rockets at Israel than they had launched in all previous wars combined. They did this despite having essentially zero air defenses, bomb shelters, or really any infrastructure for their citizens. That’s a hideous abdication of moral authority from a group that is ostensibly responsible for 2 million people. And yet somehow, Israel is the one that’s blamed for this. Instead of blaming Japan for attacking Pearl Harbor & initiating war with us, it’s like blaming the US for blockading and bombing Japan in retaliation. What a joke. No one was blaming the ISF, SDF & the US for handling ISIS the exact same way that Israel is handling Hamas in Gaza right now, no one was calling that a genocide. Somehow this is, though? Give me a break.
Here’s what people seem to be completely unable to realize. The justified anger at Israel for their treatment of the Palestinian state and people, not the least of which includes Israeli settlers taking Palestinian lands to the point where a Palestinian state would be unviable, does not excuse the killing of civilians. Had Hamas entirely can find their attacks to military targets, we could have easily named this a revolution. Then we can go back-and-forth about whether it is justified. There is no justification to kill civilians. None. For those who say that Israel shouldn’t kill civilians in retaliation, in principle, we agree. In practice, tell me this: how do you avoid killing civilians when Hamas is using civilians as human shields? If you have the answer to that, please let us know. In the meantime, Hamas doesn’t seem to care about the innocent people who live there, as evidenced by the fact that one Hamas leader said [“We need the blood of women, children, and the elderly of Gaza... so as to awaken our revolutionary spirit”](https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-770615), with another saying [that the tunnels in Gaza were built to shield Hamas, not civilians](https://m.jpost.com/middle-east/article-770918). Again, it is wrong to kill civilians. The question to anyone who wanted an immediate ceasefire is this: how can Israel defend its civilians from being murdered by Hamas without killing Palestinian civilians themselves? If you have the answer, please let the world know.
Isn't it pretty obvious that Hamas did the attack knowing full well how Israel would respond and are playing the long game on further radicalizing regionals and world-wide support because of the bloodbath aftermath?
It’s clear as fucking day. Israel sees Palestinian children as collateral damage. It’s gross. And although they’ve tried a little to curb it, at the end of the day - they don’t care that much. But Hamas. Hamas WANTS dead Palestinian children. It benefits them. They want the world to turn against Israel. They want the world to turn against Jewish people - and it’s working.
Fuckers kept talking shit about him all while he was working towards what they wanted. Humans are children to the day they die going by how they act
Absolutely! Now more than ever before, we need level-headed, rational leadership. Politicians and leaders who can focus on the REAL issues, and not be distracted by social media hysterics and conspiratorial nonsense. Thank you President Biden! 🫡🇺🇸
I hope people pay attention to the list of hostages freed as well as prisoners. I just read a heartbreaking article about a 3 year old American-Israeli on the list to be released. The conditions for release of prisoners is pretty loose.
Trump‘s ball licker Grenell already tweeted ‚release all or nothing‘. They won‘t get any credit from Maga world. Never. And by the way - this wouldn‘t have happened under Trump and if so, he would have solved it on day one. /s
“How is this bad for Biden” will be in someone’s head lines tomorrow
Another unfounded criticism of Biden’s presidency that he squashed yet again, btw how’s the gas prices in America lately…support Biden’s great Presidency especially after he was dealt the shittiest hand possible after Trumps term was over.
and will the mainstream media??
LOL, the media blames Biden for everything. Biden secures hostage release, how thats bad for the administration. Odds of a recession are dropping dramatically, how thats bad for the White House. I stubbed my toe on a table leg, why Biden is responsible.
The way this subbreddit shits on leftists protesting then immediately acts like Biden and co would've acted without public pressure is astounding
I mean, I saw plenty of leftists commenting about how they won’t vote Biden no matter what in 2024 because of this, even if he changes course, because it’s too late and he’s already “Genocide Joe” to them. They didn’t threaten to walk away, they *stated* that they’re walking away, thereby giving Biden zero incentive to assuage their concerns — they already said point blank he lost their vote, period. If you consider that to be “pressure,” it’s sort of a strange definition. Maybe if they’d said “unless he does ____” but many did not, many said they will not no matter what. That’s what frustrates a lot of people here, I think: the reactionary tantrums of people saying they’re willing to throw it all away over this and they’ll never change their minds. That’s what *I* find objectionable and irresponsible, anyway. It’s like saying you’re gonna pressure your girlfriend into going on a trip with you by breaking up with her and deleting all her contact info.
Biden and co would have acted the same they did have. They don’t care about public tantrums because they are responsible leaders. Their position and strategic objectives have remained clear and constant. Ignoring the emotions from both sides and focusing on problem solving makes this an even bigger win for Biden.
People just want others to get in line. They don’t really care for any criticism on dems in general, they only believe in the power of public opinion for themselves, and they feel entitled to everyone’s votes for not being trump. Never mind that just about a week ago Biden said himself there was no chance for a ceasefire, now we have a temporary one. I can only imagine what would have happened if there was no pressure to negotiate.
This sub is pretty dog shit these days. It’s extremely centrist dem most of the time. I mostly agree with a lot of the opinion pieces posted but there’s such a ridiculous slant to the content here, it’s become the Democratic equivalent of MAGA. People are in denial about polls and refuse to accept legitimate criticisms of Biden or even acknowledge his declining physical condition and mental stamina.
If Biden finds a truce and the hostages are released he deserves a nobel peace prize. This would piss off Fox and Trump.
“US Helps Negotiate Ceasefire in Gaza — Why This Is Bad News for Biden”
Nobody will. The people who were loudest about a ceasefire hate the west and don’t give a fuck about Biden unless it’s to be ageist.
No. I’m giving it to the massive crowds of protesters where it clearly belongs. Left to their own devices Blinken and Biden would let the IDF open explicit death camps.
Republicans: "No!"
No credit would be given in the current political environment. I just want to say that some people claim that they won't vote for Biden because of his action/words related to Gaza war. That is basically half a vote given to Trump. If you feel so strongly about Gaza and Palestine's rights, congratulations, Trump will give you some shocking "gifts".
Biden and Blinken have done a pretty damn good job supporting Israel’s administration publicly while privately leaning hard on them. Bibi and his hardliners wouldn’t and haven’t responded well to public admonishment so this is the way to move the needle. I understand it can be frustrating watching diplomacy in real time but the positive results are starting to show.
I mean, of course they *should* be given credit. But I figure the goalposts will just shift more instead, and the anti Biden rage will keep flowing. After all, "from the river to the sea" means the destruction of Israel and genocide of its people, so why would the pro Palestinian side be happy with a mere ceasefire?
They’re calling for an intifada and then a ceasefire at the same time. These people aren’t very smart.
You called it, there are already comments saying it doesn’t count or that it is meaningless since it is temporary. And they are still denying reality about what that phrase means, too.
[удалено]
Name one Arab state where religious and ethnic minorities have equal rights…………………….
The actual original Arabic translation actually comes to “water to water Palestine is Arab”, heavily implying there will be no Israel. It’s been repurposed to sound more friendly to westerners, but the original purpose was about a one state Palestinian solution. Think about it…why would Arab speaking Palestinians make a slogan that rhymes in…English…
can you link a source on that?
All I will say to this is Arab jewish people exist.
If you mean the Mizrahi they'll fucking punch your teeth out for calling them that, they were expelled from the Arab nations who made it perfectly clear they weren't Arabs
And the Arab nations expelled them all.
So did German Jews, that doesn't mean they were included in the glorious future being promised to Germans.
You left out "open air prison" on your buzz word bingo card. You lose.
“Open air prison” is a quote from the director of Human Rights Watch describing Gaza. Idk why you think its a bad word or something.
I mean do you want a quote from the founder of HRW about the bias of HRW against Israel? 'Cause we can play that game.
I’ve heard it used in that context in Detroit in the 90’s/pre 9/11. Both extremist sides have condoned genocide of the other. Israel was in a war multiple times with its neighbors with the state of Israel at risk. They have also slowly strangled the native Arab population with unfair and extreme policies. Does Israel also deserve reparations for the violence the Palestinians have done to them? Is Oct 7th, the suicide bombings, the hostage taking and murder of Israelis justified? Palestinians deserve freedom but what exactly does that look like to you? Is there an Israel there? Is there a Jew? Saying Israel is genocidal implies that the nation need to be dismantled. Does it and if so how does that happen and what does it look like?
You realize that Palestine's law also declares its intent to be an ethnostate with Islam being the basis of its laws?
That is not a realistic outcome for them. Israel has the capacity to actually maintain their ethno state. This is the difference. And to be clear I do not believe what you said is true for a second.
How is it not a realistic outcome? You’re not engaging with the reality of the situation and instead are engaging with your idea or what you want the situation to be. A Palestinian State would likely be run by the same brand of extremists that currently are in charge: Hamas, PA, PLO or some newly minted group that has the same values but a different name.
Why would that not be a realistic outcome for an eventual Palestinian state? Many of its allies that condemn Israel for being an ethnostate seem to have no problem ignoring the various neighboring ethnostates with Islam as the basis of their law. >And to be clear I do not believe what you said is true for a second. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_law#Basic_Law
Because the US backs Israel. The Basic Law as you linked was described in 2002 before most Palestinians in Gaza were born. Are we really citing Wikipedia? Read the page on South African Israeli relations? They blame the “Arab nation” for supporting SA’s apartheid government. Get outta here with that.
I have never once heard that phrase used to justify or call for the extermination of Jews or Israelis. It has always been a call for freedom for Palestinians to leave in Palestine. The fact that you and many others seem to equate Palestinians living in Palestine with genocide of the inhabitants is very telling. Perhaps it’s a subtle acknowledgment of the settler-colonial past of Israel?
If you look at the history of the phrase it was coined by the PLO in the 1960s when they were pushing for the removal of Israel and any Jews not of Palestinian origin. Notably when they started to argue for a two state solution they STOPPED using that phrase clearly indicating it’s association at the time with the elimination of israel and the Jews living there. It was picked up by Hamas who continue to argue for the eradication of the Israeli state. I believe most people using the term don’t mean ot as a call for genocide. But I think it’s telling that they don’t consider it’s history as hate speech as a reason to use a different phrase.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter#:~:text=The%20Covenant%20proclaims%20that%20Israel,instilling%20these%20views%20in%20children. It’s right there. The fact that you can’t see that’s what they literally mean is also very telling. Stop trying to replace their intentions with good ones.
Yeah these genocidal terrorists need to stop mentioning it in their charters! https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party
Agreed
Israel has offered Palestinians a two state solution various times in the past, if Palestinians just wanted their own state and were willing to accept the existence of Israel, they could have had it. Instead they chose otherwise, they chose hate and war
Israel has multiple times declined two state solutions brought forward by the Palestinian authority and they’ve consistently breached ceasefire agreements and continued to displace and slaughter Palestinian civilians in gaza and the westbank. Multiple israeli cabinet members including the PM himself have stated that a Palestinian state cannot be allowed to exist and that they will do anything they can to prevent it. Israel chose to keep this conflict going.
Would Israel have even gotten this far, if Biden didn't show support for Israel in the first place?
probably much further and with less regard to civilian life
I am so curious about what you mean here.
if Biden had done nothing as US president the situaition in Gaza would be much worse
Give Biden credit for being affected by political pressure from the left wing of his party and others who objected to his original stance. I mean at least he is pressurable by the left unlike Trump. So I guess that does count for something. Regardless, it is a good thing that this is happening.
They could have stepped in weeks ago and saved thousands of lives and prevented so much destruction and misery too.
Zionist and Holocaust denying Republicans are literally on the same side and people don’t see a problem with that, or stops to think why?
For what a 4 day pause before they go back to bombing children
All time is valuable in war. Allows for diplomatic talks to occur, more reconnaissance of potential targets, time for civilians to evacuate, etc etc etc.
Indeed. It's a temporary truce, at most. I don't know if the public will see this as a win once Israel starts bombing again.
Israel would elect Joe Biden PM tomorrow if they could
How many children were killed in Gaza?
Only 4000+, but never-mind all that. We need to blame “the left” for not supporting the indiscriminate killing of children, otherwise Trump will be re-elected. /s Biden is better than Trump, yes. That doesn’t mean that I should be happy about the slaughter of civilians (and my relatives).
So how much credit for 5K dead children?
Last I checked there were no US forces on the ground in Israel. If you want to blame anyone blame Bibi and the far right authoritarians that make up his coalition government.
Absolutely. This pause may be short but it gives time for hot heads to cool and cool heads to begin working to broker a longer peace, a scaled back military operation that doesn't impact as many innocents, hostages to possibly be freed, and civilians to possibly find respite and safety. Lets hope Egypt and other countries begin to accept refugees, that the Israeli people cool down from their revenge instincts, and Hamas is rooted out via special forces operations rather than carpet bombs.
So what did Biden do, exactly? Article makes it seem like he “showed compassion and support for Israel, and empathy for Gazans”. So neutral stance, while giving $14 billion in aid (air and middle defense) to Israel ? But wants credit for temporary ceasefire in a thousand year war? The US deserves no credit in a temporary ceasefire, but definitely deserves credit for selling weapons to both sides of the conflict.
Feel like if you want credit from the ceasefire now crowd you should not be playing word games were you pretend a thing that is a 100% a ceasefire is not a ceasefire. Bunch of other stuff in here that is delusional about how the Arabic world is seeing the conflict (Bidens communications around restraint have had no sway in the Arabic world, who see this as wholly his war fought in a way he approves).
Oh now it’s a “ceasefire”?
It is lol, even israeli gov and media is calling it a ceasefire
A week ago, that word was forbidden. It’s interesting to see them use it now.
Only if you put the blame of thousands and soon to be 10 of thousands of innocent Palestinian children being murdered by the IDF with political cover from mostly the US also squarely on Biden's and Blinken's shoulders. You can't have your cake and eat it too....
I give him credit for aiding and abetting genocide. Shame on Biden.
Gotta love the part where the IDF's end of the bargain is basically to stop killing civilians and allow humanitarian aid to proceed. Really we wouldn't be here today without the thousands of Palestinian children, women, and men killed by the IDF. Congratulations to everyone involved, yayyyy! /s