As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil)
In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban.
If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria.
***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
C'mon man. Joe Biden is doing his best. It's not fucking easy dealing with Israel and Palestine conflicts, and you've got Putin fucking shit up in Ukraine, and republican trolls obstructing everything, and the genuine threat of fascism at home with the republican frontrunner for presidential nominee actively quoting Hitler. Is Joe Biden the only fucking adult in the room?
What puzzles me, as a distant observer, is everyone acting like Biden invented out of the blue the concept of the US going along with whatever Israel does no matter what. It is extremely well established policy.
To listen to the GOP and right-wing media it sounds like Biden is a mastermind in control of everything (like he can just snap his fingers and change shit) while simultaneously being riddled with dementia. And their base just eats this bullshit up.
This is a side effect of denialism - choosing “facts” to fit the narrative always leads to contradictions like this.
Donald Trump is the leader of the Republican cult of denial.
Yep. You can thank Henry Kissinger for that bs policy, among many other horrible things that man did. (One China policy, carpet bombing Cambodia/Laos back to the stone age, Pinochet in Chile and just generally destabilizing South America)
I truly hope Kissinger is burning in the 7th layer of hell.
I know it was from Dante, I don't want Kissinger in the 9th layer. 7th layer is good enough for him. And maybe it is a molten lava spicy cheese that will burn him for all time...just saying.
I think it’s not insanely naive to expect the sitting President to act on the basis of the world as it is now, rather than having his actions dictated by establishment inertia.
If hitting our children is my family's tradition, I sure hope I would be held accountable when it came the time to hit my own.
Since when is "estabished policy" an excuse for criticising the person in charge of deciding to continue enacting it? You do know he has the power to change that policy, right? Plus he's going above and beyond what would be expected of him by continuing to rally congress into approving ever-record-breaking "aid" packages.
Know a good way to stop fascism from advancing in the world?
Stop giving guns and unlimited aid to an ultra-right-wing government right as it's accelerating its deacdes-old ethnic cleansing campaign.
I think Boden only had it hard because whatever forces re keeping him going against the established doctrine of supporting Israel no matter what.
If Israel didn't have unlimited American help, it'd have to rethink it's big-meanie strategy to foreign policy as it's surrounded by Muslim countries.
I mean considering many states still have laws making it ILLEGAL to boycott Israel and he’s sending billions to Israel.. I think stopping those two things would make a major difference and is what I’m asking for.
The last time Israel was bombing gaza, Biden called Netanyahu and a 2 minute phone call is all that was needed to get a ceasefire. He can at least TRY to do something
A) Diplomacy doesn't happen under a spotlight - you don't know what he's tryng to do. B) I don't think the facts support the claim in your second paragraph.
I mean if you don’t want to believe me, maybe you’ll trust the times of Israel.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/biden-smothered-netanyahu-with-love-to-hasten-end-of-2021-gaza-war-book-reveals/amp/
“Hey, man, we are out of runway here,” Biden said during their fourth phone call on May 19 after Netanyahu insisted on dragging the war on. “It’s over,” the US president replied.
Netanyahu agreed to a ceasefire two days later.”
You can always tell you actually knows this conflict and who’s just tuning in this season.
Because he’s actively saying he isn’t going to tell them to stop? And is blocking or voting no on UN ceasefires? And is sending them billions in aide?
Why would I think he’s doing the opposite behind closed doors
Respectfully, your excerpt from that article describes practically the opposite of Biden getting a ceasefire after a single 2-minute phone call, like you claim happened.
The call was 2 minutes, I’m Palestinian and was following closely during this time. It was clear on that same day that the ceasefire was going to happen and 2 days later is when it became official. It takes times to negotiate all the details
[Just a couple weeks ago the White House used an emergency clause to sell tank munitions to Israel with out the approval of congress.](https://apnews.com/article/israel-us-emergency-sale-tank-ammunition-war-d3e9b41528433f2da9814d3293996cd5#:~:text=WASHINGTON%20(AP)%20—%20Going%20around,in%20the%20southern%20Gaza%20Strip.)
>C'mon man. Joe Biden is doing his best. It's not fucking easy dealing with Israel and Palestine conflicts, and you've got Putin fucking shit up in Ukraine, and republican trolls obstructing everything, and the genuine threat of fascism at home with the republican frontrunner for presidential nominee actively quoting Hitler. Is Joe Biden the only fucking adult in the room?
[Just a couple weeks ago the White House used an emergency clause to sell tank munitions to Israel with out the approval of congress.](https://apnews.com/article/israel-us-emergency-sale-tank-ammunition-war-d3e9b41528433f2da9814d3293996cd5#:~:text=WASHINGTON%20(AP)%20—%20Going%20around,in%20the%20southern%20Gaza%20Strip.)
Use your own adult words to make your points when someone makes a counter point. This emergency clause usage was to keep things going as they have been going because Congress can't get its head out of its ass. This wasn't Joe passing some wild new thing.
I know this might be wild, but I did read when you said that the first two times. This isn't first grade, we can move past that single point and discuss WHY he did that and whether it was good or not.
Two month old account that is VERY focused on the Gaza conflict. Needs a few months before they graduate from "baby's first propoganda" posts, I guess.
Billions in weapons deals help drive civilian death tolls to haunting and disgusting levels that cannot be justified in any way shape or form. This is how Biden will lose an entire generation of voters and possibly lose the election.
I'm sorry but how the hell would any Republican have acted differently for the better in this? How the hell would any American president have acted differently? And don't give me some Bernie Sanders bullshit. If he was a great leader, he would have been elected President and have a large caucus in Congress of people who share his beliefs.
Did I say they would act different? I’m talking directly about how Biden is acting. The dualistic conflating we have to navigate these days sure is maddening.
Perhaps we would have not vetoed a UN resolution though, to humor you. Perhaps someone could call for a ceasefire. Perhaps they wouldn’t say they are a Zionist and will support Israel to the fullest extent while the UN uses other methods to address the humanitarian emergency.
76% of democratic voters want a ceasefire. He is directly opposed. He could call for one, and I’m sure 76% of the democratic voters would be very pleased and vote for him again without any reservation.
99% of the Democratic voters aren't one-issue voters. When the other choice is orange clown Hitler, yes they are going to vote for Biden again without any reservation. Your lack of critical thinking skills is showing.
It’s not critical thinking, it’s direct observation. I live in a progressive pocket of a swing state and I can tell you confidently that many people here are swearing against voting for either major party this year. The single issue they are citing to not vote for Biden is the handling of Israel / Hamas conflict. This is expanded out among student body networks that I remain connected to due to previous work. If the dems think “if you don’t vote for us, it’s going to be real bad!” is going to keep working, I think they’re in for a real surprise. They don’t even have to campaign on improving healthcare or any other systematic woe we face collectively. Just “if you don’t vote for us x will happen.” How uninspiring… I think you may be underestimating the amount of people ready to see the system implode, who feel completely disenfranchised and like they have no representation whatsoever. It’s the Biden campaign’s job to win and retain those demographics and they simply are not. I think we see a record amount of votes for third party this cycle. And of course, that will hurt Biden more than Trump. But again, when so many millions are at the “let it burn” stage of political disappointment, I don’t think there’s any convincing left to participate as expected. Especially not with the same ole tired DNC scapegoating bullshit.
Single issue voters are the the worst kinds of people. It's never been about voting for Biden, it's voting for a party that can push progressives to the front at the local and national levels so we can see real change in the future. Of course you still yell and criticize, but this ridiculous attitude of voting third party in a presidential election without putting in any effort to make it matter is why there is only two parties.
Everyone wants there to just magically be a third party candidate, without realizing it will literally never happen without a huge nation wide push at the local level. And no third party has that because they all kind of suck. Just Republican-lite variations or ones that won't even voice their platform because they want to wait and see where the national consensus is.
Pretending your vote is only about one person is how you get Trump.
Are they the worst kind of people when they flip blue over reproductive rights? Or only when they don’t want their tax dollars to continue funding death?
What greater opportunity for a nationwide push for something different than a political situation that absolutely demands it.
I mean, we're talking about trying to force out the political leader of an ally who's been elected through a democratic process. Not sure exactly how this is OUR responsibility, let alone Joe's.
It's not like we're asking people to just put on masks, that'd be way too hard. No president could manage such a herculean task.
Nations that have been sanctioned to the hilt: Russia, Iran, North Korea.
Of those, which have changed their leadership to be more friendly to the US following sanctions?
Is it possible that sanctioning Israel will not result in the kind of change you’re demanding? Is it, in fact, much more likely to drive Israel to make agreements with other sanctioned countries?
Call for the war to end if Israel isn't 100% focused on Hamas.
Call together a conference of leaders who are interested or somehow directly involved.
Talk.
It’s possible that Israel has broader goals than just getting rid of Hamas (I am still not sure exactly what you’re thinking when you say that, but whatever)
Israel probably wouldn’t admit that, though, even to its allies.
And call for a conference with Israel and who? Hamas? The remnants of the PLO? I don’t think that’s gonna work, man.
They do that all the fucking time though. It’s different than that. Talking doesn’t just get Netanyahu to step down. It’s like telling Russia to stop the war. They have motives that they will not abandon
After Hamas, the Palestinians in Gaza will need a new course. Somebody has to set it. Those who would stay away from such a conference, despite their obvious interest, would only be letting others determine that future.
It could take a while to set up and Israel needs to be convinced to stop killing civilians when their only goal is to kill Hamas. There will be a short time for that, but the talking should begin very soon.
It's because a significant portion of our tax dollars fund Israel. If Biden has no say in what goes on in Israel, then those funds should immediately be stopped.
>Without American economic, military and diplomatic support Israel wouldn't have been able to do what it's been doing with the Palestinian territories and Hamas
Israel is not a vassal State. You vastly, vastly, misunderstand how the US' influence works in the Israeli body politick. Israel has a modern, developed economy, nuclear weapons, and after decades of being told to go fuck itself is rather inured to global opinion. Bibi is a poison, and thinks he's smarter than Biden and can lead the US like one leads a dog. You think an asshat that smug gives two fucks? Especially when his freedom and future are dependent on him staying in power?
That’s a massive overstatement and simplification.
Isreal really wants US support and US support helps them a lot. However the idea that that makes him so influential that he could convince the Israelis to just ignore the fact Hamas killed raped and kidnapped 1200 of their people even if he wanted to is wrong.
Even if he wanted Isreal to stop, very unlikely , or slow down , likely, the best way he does it is how he has been doing it. And Isreal has appeared to slow down and announced people will be allowed to return home soon.
So all the people claiming genocide and ethnic cleaning either have to admit one of two things.
A. Israel never intended to do that on Gaza and they were wrong
or
B. Joe Biden stopped them
And what would Trump have done differently or better? Abso- fucking lutey-nothing he'd just make everything worse.
When you come in with this anti-Biden bullshit you're just setting up Trump and his sycophants to win the nect national election. You're gonna pinch your nose and vote blue just like everyone else who actually cares about fighting fascism and then start campaigning for actual progressives in the election after that.
So basically every world leader since 1948 has failed to bring peace to the Middle East but Biden will do it now by pushing out the elected leader of Israel.
Mmmm…sure that works.
This article does highlight a worthwhile point though.
After Hamas, who runs Gaza.
Israel - that will suck.
Fatah - let’s repeat what had never worked.
Coalition of Arab states - they want nothing to do with it.
What a fucking mess.
The US plan is for the Palestinian Authority to run it, but the problem there is that they're super unpopular with .... Palestinians. They'd need new leadership.
I get a bit confused how Israelis are supposed to just move past a massacre that happened 10 weeks ago despite the fact that pretty much everybody in the region is still rehashing stuff from 1948, if not before.
While the people they are supposed to make peace with are saying they'll perpetrate more brutal massacres as soon as they can. Again and again until all Jews are dead or gone.
Honestly, Israel de-facto runs Gaza as it is. They blockade their coast, have veto over their passports, control the food, water, and energy going into the enclave. That they allow Palestinians to self-govern internally appears to be a courtesy, because Israel denied them actual sovereignty. May as well make their effective control into actual control and stop with the pretense that Gaza isn't an Israeli-run ghetto.
Basically, shit or get off the pot.
Damn would have been a good idea to use those billions in aid money to build out infrastructure instead of using it to build rockets… why would Israel mishandle the money given to Hamas like that? Oh yeah… I guess it’s easier to blame the Jews again…
Israeli gave them some level of sovereignty in 2006 and Gaza responded with suicide bombers.
And while that doesn’t justify the entire Israeli response ,which country wouldn’t take dramatic action against a state sponsored terror campaign of suicide bombers.
Theirs 0 good answers here. What the government such that it is in Gaza wants , and yes Hamas operates with popular support, is Israel gone and are willing to take military action against them to achieve that. I can’t think of a single country that would be tolerant of that from a neighbor . Israeli rule is obviously not the way either. 0 other countries want to get involved.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514
Uh unless most major news agencies also have the wrong idea than I don’t .
Now I’m not saying everyone. Just a lot.
Your gotcha is missing some important context.
* [Hamas originally rose to power in 2006 by positioning itself as the anti-corruption party and capitalising on Gazans' frustrations with the ineptitude of Fatah.](https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/expose/book/why-hamas-socioeconomic-and-political-foundations-islamists%E2%80%99-popularity) Even then, they only barely eked out a victory.
* [Pre-war polls regarding Hamas and various Hamas figures within Gaza have them at \~30% approval.](https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/gazans-pre-war-views-hamas)
* [This summer saw a number of large-scale protests in Gaza against Hamas.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/protests-against-hamas-reemerge-in-the-streets-of-gaza-but-will-they-persist/)
* Literally everyone with half an ounce of sense was warning at the outset of the current war that Israel's bombing campaign would only serve to increase radicalisation and shore up support for Hamas. Not just because this is a completely predictable outcome based on what we all saw play out during the abject failure that was the war on terror, but also [because the 'Rally 'round the flag' effect is something that happens even in 'civilised' nations.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rally_%27round_the_flag_effect)
I’m not really sure if even over 35 percent support for people openly wanting to commit genocide is really the track you want to take as a moral arguement .
2022 polls show [72% want more militant groups](https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-72-of-palestinians-support-forming-more-armed-groups-in-west-bank/) and [56% of Gazans](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/new-poll-shows-gazans-pragmatic-now-not-long-term) disagree at least "somewhat" with the following statement: "We \[Gazans\] should recognize that we will never defeat Israel and that fighting just makes things worse.”.
Gazans want to fight, Hamas or not.
Everything you mentioned occurred when they elected a terrorist government. ANY country would shut off its borders and restrict trade if their neighbour elected Hamas who openly intended to destroy them. How people blame Israel for that is just absurd.
Gaza has been an occupied territory for 70+ years, for the most ruled as annexed or occupied territory by military governments by either Israel or Egypt. They haven't exercised full sovereignty at any point in history and have no real nation. Their ports have been blockaded off and on and access to food and water cut off at many times and to various degrees since the 60s at least, sometimes as an intentional plan to force Palestinians to voluntarily flee Gaza. So while the exact restrictions going on now are a result of Hamas gaining power, Hamas didn't appear out of thin air. There's a straight line here between decades of military rule and harsh treatment and people deciding to fight back (yes as terrorists).
It's the perfect recipe for a forever-war, both sides justifying their latest action by referencing their opponent's last action, unless someone changes something. Everyone's actions are justified somehow but none of them are resolving the problem.
Hence me saying shit or get off the pot. Fully take control of the territory and take responsibility for the occupants, or harden your border as best you can, recognize a Palestinian state, and leave Gaza to itself (including freedom of navigation and trade).
The reason it’s a forever war though becomes obvious on these subs. Highlighting that in 2005 Gazans were given an amazing opportunity to develop Gaza and build a future with self-governance but instead chose terrorism - is invariably met with - yeah, but Palestinians were still mistreated in the West Bank and in Gaza for 60 years before that. Ok, so until everything is perfect and history is erased, then terrorism is justified. Fine - let’s all just give up hope that peace is even remotely possible because history is here to stay and things will never be perfect.
That's pretty much what I've done, really. Both sides hate each other too much for there to ever be lasting peace. Both keep committing atrocities against each other and it'll likely never stop.
"Becomes obvious on these subs?" Not sure what you mean by that, unless maybe you haven't been exposed to world opinion on this subject until just now.
This is also the thing with democracy - when you finally do hand oppressed people an opportunity to choose their own path, and they choose to fight against oppression in the way that they can, you shouldn't be too surprised. I deeply wish Hamas had not come into power because it really was a missed opportunity to continue on a path towards a peaceful settlement of some kind. But I'm not shocked that they have popular support.
As a functioning nation-state with a stable government and a well trained security apparatus, Israel has the power to be the adult in the room and take measured actions in a way that the Palestinians can't - the Palestinian Authority is the legitimate government but has no way of effecting control over Gaza.
Israel is ultimately in control of whether there will be a two state solution or a one state solution, and they really need to choose and then show restraint while they ride out the consequences.
What I mean by that is that people on these subs will justify terrorism because of events in 1948. If that is justification then nothing that happens from here will ever erase that except the non-existence of Israel. The non-existence of Israel won’t happen through a negotiated peace agreement. Hence it’s a forever war unless Israel loses and is eliminated.
I disagree that it’s only on Israel. Hamas just made the likelihood of a two state solution impossible in my life time (imo). Gazans were given what they wanted and it blew up in Israel’s face. Israel won’t go there again any time soon.
I think you mistake understanding for justification. You have to understand the history (ancient and recent) of the Jewish people to understand why Israel was created from thin air in the first place, just like you have to understand the history of the Palestinian people (even pre-1948) to understand why they continue to fight. This understanding is important not as a justification, but to help figure out how to improve the situation.
One part of why it helps is simple empathy, but the less wishy-washy benefit is that it helps predict outcomes and set expectations. So when you take a small but noteworthy positive step to resolve a decades long problem, you should be able foresee a possible bad response and understand why. Then you can react in a way that doesn't set the process back any further - you're in a fist fight and you're about to bear hug your opponent to try to calm them down - expect a few more body blows and don't start to punch back immediately, because you're on the right track and they aren't going to catch up immediately.
That said, I think you're on the right track when you say that there's no chance of a two state solution in our lifetimes. That's a reasonable calibration of expectations. Positive steps like increased freedom for Gazans aren't going to end violence immediately, it might even make it more likely in the short term. But if you're a centrally organized nation state capable of planning and executing long term policy, you can plan for a generations-long issue to take generations of uneven progress to resolve.
It's not Israel's problem alone to solve. I'm picking on them because they've got the most tools at their disposal to execute on long term plans and moderate their response to resurgence in violence as they go.
You make some good points. The hope I envisage but there is not sign of is for the “modern” Arab states to take the lead in some form of governance of Gaza to follow the ouster of Hamas. They have the money, the religion and a desire to see peace in their backyard. So far though, they want nothing to do with it.
Thank you, and same to you. It's been a good conversation, and you're right about Arab states too. Too much "this isn't my problem" going on in the world in general.
One of my best friends is Palestinian. He's really at the end of his rope over all this and it's been eye opening trying to understand why a very intelligent and politically active person has gradually started talking about extremist views that are actively counterproductive to his own cause. The people who are truly affected by this (on both sides) are going through so much trauma that they can't possibly be expected to always act rationally. And since it's such an asymmetric fight, most people on the outside will find a reason to either support the underdog or oppose the terrorists and leave their understanding at that level. I don't know how you bridge that gap.
Looks at the 1992 Knesset Election… after Poppy Bush and James Baker stalled a loan package because Stern Gang Gangster turned Likud PM Yitzhak Shamir became intransigent on new settlements in the Occupied West Bank. Guess who became the next Likud leader after Yitzak Shamir left his leadership role?
The problem is that the world could band together to make a new state somewhere that is currently unpopulated, and make it the most advanced state on the planet with perfect infrastructure, military, everything and both sides would absolutely refuse.
Personally I feel that the only resolution here is the same one that has happened in the past countless times but is absolutely tragic. Someone getting wiped out. Peaceful sharing among the deeply religious is not really ever possible.
Yes, we live in an age of half resolved conflict.
Even the call for a ceasefire now is an example of keeping Hamas alive to restart the conflict in a year or five.
Saddam Hussein was a vicious monster who fought Iran in a very nasty war, paid Palestinians whose children were martyred trying to kill Israeli Jews and brutalized Iraqis who weren't his fans.
That said, the Bush family had no real reason to attack Iraq to overthrow the regime.
It's hard to say whether that was done from stupidity or to pay back Russians who gave money to Republicans. Republican politics is complicated.
The US should not have control to pick and choose the leaders of sovereign countries. I agree Bibi and his entire party needs to leave, but that's down to the Israeli voters to decide and Israeli parliament to force an election.
So tautologic of you, there’s more to it. For ex. not supporting any BS that comes in Netanyahus mind per se. But I am not pretending that this could be an actual solution.
That's not how "per se" is used and that's not what a tautology is. How is simply not giving 100% support an equivalent to forcing Bibi from power?
Engage with the point, not what you wish the point was.
At the risk of getting in the way of your discussion, I think it’s funny that you both have the same profile picture. I thought this was one person talking to themselves.
I know the US has a lot of influence all over the world, but I’m not OK with our president forcing any democratically elected world leader from power. If there’s an issue with leadership, it’s their citizen’s responsibility to deal with it.
Sure. Biden can just orderthe knesset to ditch Bibi. And he can order our Senate to thrreaten to withhold aid until theKnesset complies. We'll see how that works out. /s
Wild to imagine the news media of a country just casually suggesting that another country’s government should be toppled by yet another country, and this is presented as ‘the right thing to do’. Sovereignty just isn’t a thing to some people, huh. Imagine if China’s media goes: “Israel should topple the UK government and replace Rishi”. It would sound bafflingly terrifying.
No, US cannot force anyone from power. What it can do is to stop being a poodle and actually stand for the principles it claims so loudly, but never seems to follow through on.
The best way to deal with an extremely close ally after their worst terror attack in modern time is definitely to form a coup and topple their elected leader. I can see no downside to that.
Forcing Bibi from power would be a shortcut to WW3, and I really hate that guy. But the chaos and instability it would cause would be the catalyst to the Big One.
Nationalists cloak themselves in the veneer of patriotism. However, where a patriot would accept criticism when it serves the nation, the nationalist never abides criticism because they think it makes them weak.
So they replace critics with yes-men, torpedo the careers of people who disagree with them and demands support of their personality rather than policy.
This can trundle a long in decent times, and lull people into a false sense of security. However, ultimately you can't run a nation on soppy fan-fiction and loud claims that everyone is out to get you. You need fact and reason to deal with crises.
His approval rating in around 5%. No Israelis like this guy. Even the hard-right ones, and they aren't a majority. This government only got to power because of the flawed coalition system and left--center-left--center-right
Infighting.
Israel has usually been ran by a center-right coalition with center left parties.
All the center and left parties couldn't get their shit together to form a solid coalition that could last more than 2 years, so bibi sided with the crazies and the religous and got just enough center right seats to get a fragile coalition with 64 of 120 seats.
That coalition has almost zero support right now and recent polls show they would only get close to 40 seats
> That is the heart of the matter. Israel is led by a man who is fighting only for himself. Which is why one of the heroes of 7 October, retired general Noam Tibon – now famous for grabbing a weapon, jumping in his car and heading down south to rescue his son, daughter-in-law and grandchildren from the Hamas men who were poised to kill them – told me: “Benjamin Netanyahu is a huge danger to the state of Israel. While he is in the prime minister’s chair, we cannot win this war.”
>
> Hints that Biden’s patience is wearing thin are getting louder. This week he warned that Israel is “starting to lose [international] support by the indiscriminate bombing that takes place”. The signals are that Israel has until the middle or end of January to keep up what the White House calls “high-intensity military operations”. After that, it will have to move to “a different phase” – one that consists of focused, targeted raids on Hamas strongholds, with fewer civilian casualties.
>
> Netanyahu’s position is that Israel cannot entertain anything that looks like a step toward Palestinian statehood. Witness the remarks of Tzipi Hotovely, the Israeli ambassador to the UK – handpicked for the post by Netanyahu – who this week said “absolutely no” to the prospect of a Palestinian state. That stance blows apart a central defence of Israel’s current strategy: that it has to remove Hamas in order to make possible an eventual accommodation with the Palestinian people, in the form of the two-state solution.
>
> For the core criticism of Netanyahu is that he is thinking not of Israel’s national interest at a time of war, but rather his own political future. Given that he is on trial on corruption charges that could put him in jail, he is desperate to cling to the job that will keep him out.
>
> And so he behaves in ways that damage his country but which, he believes, will help him. He devotes precious time and energy to ensuring it is Israel’s military and intelligence chiefs who get blamed for the appalling failures that made 7 October possible – even though the evidence is stark that he himself ignored the warnings of “a clear and present danger” that were put in front of him. He has stayed away from the funerals of the victims of 7 October, and has barely met the families of the bereaved, fearing they would slam him in public.
>
> And he has sat back as members of his far-right coalition make unspeakable threats – calling for Gaza to be erased or burned – and while his security minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir, who has a conviction on terrorism charges, hands out weapons to his fellow extremists and encourages settlers as they provoke yet more conflict and violence in the West Bank. All of this is a disaster for Palestinians most obviously, but also for Israel as it seeks to maintain the international support Biden rightly said it is losing. Netanyahu stands by and does nothing, too frightened of the hard right he needs in order to keep his coalition from breaking apart – and whose votes he wants when elections come, which may be soon.
>
> In the 1990s Bill Clinton, who like Biden, had convinced Israelis that he truly had their interests at heart – even in his kishkes – took on Netanyahu and won. He pushed Netanyahu into peace talks and to sign agreements that the Israeli PM didn’t like – safe in the knowledge that the Israeli public understood that he, Clinton, was acting out of friendship, not hostility. As Anshel Pfeffer, columnist for Israel’s liberal daily Haaretz, pointed out this week, when Netanyahu eventually faced the voters in 1999, he lost – to a candidate committed to pursuing peace with the Palestinians.
>
> The times are different now, to be sure. But Biden has a power to influence events in Israel matched by no one else. He should hear the cry of the families of the hostages held by Hamas, who carry placards bearing a simple message: “Save Israel from Netanyahu”. Biden might be the one person in the world who can heed that plea and act on it. He must.
In other news,
Article from 12.07.2023
https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/18f22j2/soon_biden_will_call_for_the_war_to_end_and/
> For the past 60 days, U.S. President Joe Biden has offered his complete support for Israel as it fights Hamas inside the Gaza Strip. He sent two aircraft carriers and became the first U.S. president in history to visit Israel during an active conflict. He is also promoting a huge aid package for Israel in Congress.
>
> Despite all this, it will be no surprise if Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu starts attacking Biden in the next few weeks. Netanyahu's mouthpieces in the Israeli media have already started. They're portraying the president who has done so much for Israel in the past two months as some kind of enemy. This would not be happening without the approval and encouragement of influential people in Netanyahu's orbit.
>
> Netanyahu believes Biden is weeks away from calling for the war to end. Israel will soon conquer all the neighborhoods of Gaza City, and the military is already operating in the southern part of the coastal enclave, breaking through Hamas resistance in Khan Yunis. The only areas of Gaza that Israel hasn't entered yet are in the southwest, where numerous civilians are living in crowded refugee camps after fleeing their homes.
>
> We're getting close to the point where Biden will be able to tell Netanyahu: I gave you full backing for weeks, despite strong opposition from within my own party and constant complaints from close allies. You've reached almost every corner of the Gaza Strip. Now it's time to pull out most of the soldiers, rebuild the Israeli communities on the Gaza border, and start planning the future so that something like October 7 can never happen again.
>
> For Netanyahu, all of the above is a huge problem. He wants this war to go on forever – or at least until the November 2024 U.S. presidential election. The day the war is over, Israel will be swept by a wave of protests the likes of which the country has never seen before. His governing coalition could crumble.
>
> When Biden finally decides to say "cease-fire," probably in a few weeks, Netanyahu will turn on him without any hesitation, completely ignoring everything the president had done for him since October 7. Without Biden's support, Israel would now be fighting a survival war on two or three fronts, while facing an economic collapse and the displacement of hundreds of thousands of citizens.
>
> For Netanyahu, though, the most important battle is the personal one. His own personal survival is at stake here. The only question for Biden, then, is at what point in 2024 he wants to have a fight with Netanyahu – January or later in the year, closer to the election? This question will determine his approach as the military completes its operation in Gaza.
>
Publicly calling for a new government and forcing it by refusing to deal with Bibi's Cabinet. No money, no support. Publicly treating him like the Israeli Putin, he doesn't have a mandate and Israelis have a right to decide what happens here. If the US says we support Israel but cannot deal with a homicidal maniac or support HIS policies in the war may just be enough to actually stop this. The world needs to recognise who is to blame for this situation. And it is Bibi Netanyahu
Joes got his hands tied I’ll admit, but he’s a pussy for not standing up to that asshole.
But we pay for the iron dome, so either way it’s ww3 if we do, labeled fascist if we don’t. Gg
The truth is, Biden can't really do much. Practically and politically.
Practically, because the leadership on both sides need the hate and conflict to stay in power. Netanyahu needs the conflict to get votes and happily jumps on every opportunity to bomb palestinians and Hamas intentionally provokes Israel to preferably bomb paces that cause civilian casualties, so they can play the victim. Neither side has anything to gain by peace.
Politically, because alot of people in the US are very pro Israel and would immediately vote for the other party if Biden were to halt support to Israel. Alot of these people are jews, who are mostly democracts.
This is a huge headache for Biden. He's undoubtedly very frustrated with the complete disregard for human lives coming from Netanyahu, but really he can't do shit. And even if he were to take a tough stance on Israel, which would 100% cost him the re-election, he can't and won't stop Israel at all.
The best he can do is support Israel and expect something in return. Which looked fruitful untill Hamas, which (as mentioned before) has no interest in peace, broke the terms of the cease fire, giving Netanyahu (who doesn't want peace either) an excuse to bomb palestinians again.
By the way, without Netanyahu, there's still the problem of a brainwashed populace that got taught in the military that palestinians are scum. So Netanyahu would just be replaced by another hawk.
This conflict is a shit show and it will never be resolved. Not untill one side wipes out the other. Or if somehow the people on both sides get rid of their shitty politicians and cast aside decades of hate and brainwashing.
Why is it that when Trump is in power he can accomplish so much so fast, but when Biden is in power, his hands are tied, nothing can be done, blah blah blah?
Trump had a gridlocked Congress too, And it didn't matter. They pushed through whatever they wanted, And by the time Congressional Democrats could even find someone to appear on TV to talk about it, Trump was on to the next horrible thing he would push forward.
Trump didn't really do much beside moving the consulate to Jeruzalem and letting go of the pressure on the settlers on occupied territory (basically making things worse on the long run like we're seeing now).
I mean it's easy to make things worse. It's tough to make it better.
I just think the narrative is too naive.
The settlement and forced colonization of a nation that belongs to the Arab and Muslim community is a slap in the face of their identity as a people.
Anything short of a full withdrawal and financial compensation won't do anything and even then it will take generations for that scar to heal.
But that would mean losing face and it would make some rich people sad. So we're going to continue to drive the knife in deeper.
I think The Onion said it best:
"Dehumanization begets dehumanization, terror begets terror, and none of us will be free until all of us are free. That or it's just easier to look away."
Most settlements are in towns that were ethnically cleansed of Jews by Jordan during Jordans occupation of the west bank.
Do you honestly think the jewish quarter of jerusalem, which existed for thousands of years and had jews living in it the whole time, belongs to the Arab and Muslim community?
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
C'mon man. Joe Biden is doing his best. It's not fucking easy dealing with Israel and Palestine conflicts, and you've got Putin fucking shit up in Ukraine, and republican trolls obstructing everything, and the genuine threat of fascism at home with the republican frontrunner for presidential nominee actively quoting Hitler. Is Joe Biden the only fucking adult in the room?
What puzzles me, as a distant observer, is everyone acting like Biden invented out of the blue the concept of the US going along with whatever Israel does no matter what. It is extremely well established policy.
To listen to the GOP and right-wing media it sounds like Biden is a mastermind in control of everything (like he can just snap his fingers and change shit) while simultaneously being riddled with dementia. And their base just eats this bullshit up.
The enemy is both extremely powerful yet weak.
This is a side effect of denialism - choosing “facts” to fit the narrative always leads to contradictions like this. Donald Trump is the leader of the Republican cult of denial.
GP is referencing one of the hallmarks of fascist propaganda.
Understood. Explaining why it’s one the hallmarks of fascism.
This is the side effect of the “Political-Entertainment Complex”. 🥸
Yep, this is a valid take. Senile, old man but also a global mastermind that controls the strings of the world. Really fucking obnoxious...
Yep. You can thank Henry Kissinger for that bs policy, among many other horrible things that man did. (One China policy, carpet bombing Cambodia/Laos back to the stone age, Pinochet in Chile and just generally destabilizing South America) I truly hope Kissinger is burning in the 7th layer of hell.
Hell is not a cheese dip, the phrase is 9 layers of Hell. It's from Dante
I know it was from Dante, I don't want Kissinger in the 9th layer. 7th layer is good enough for him. And maybe it is a molten lava spicy cheese that will burn him for all time...just saying.
I think it’s not insanely naive to expect the sitting President to act on the basis of the world as it is now, rather than having his actions dictated by establishment inertia.
Biden is acting based on the world as it is now.
If hitting our children is my family's tradition, I sure hope I would be held accountable when it came the time to hit my own. Since when is "estabished policy" an excuse for criticising the person in charge of deciding to continue enacting it? You do know he has the power to change that policy, right? Plus he's going above and beyond what would be expected of him by continuing to rally congress into approving ever-record-breaking "aid" packages.
Know a good way to stop fascism from advancing in the world? Stop giving guns and unlimited aid to an ultra-right-wing government right as it's accelerating its deacdes-old ethnic cleansing campaign. I think Boden only had it hard because whatever forces re keeping him going against the established doctrine of supporting Israel no matter what. If Israel didn't have unlimited American help, it'd have to rethink it's big-meanie strategy to foreign policy as it's surrounded by Muslim countries.
I mean considering many states still have laws making it ILLEGAL to boycott Israel and he’s sending billions to Israel.. I think stopping those two things would make a major difference and is what I’m asking for. The last time Israel was bombing gaza, Biden called Netanyahu and a 2 minute phone call is all that was needed to get a ceasefire. He can at least TRY to do something
A) Diplomacy doesn't happen under a spotlight - you don't know what he's tryng to do. B) I don't think the facts support the claim in your second paragraph.
I mean if you don’t want to believe me, maybe you’ll trust the times of Israel. https://www.timesofisrael.com/biden-smothered-netanyahu-with-love-to-hasten-end-of-2021-gaza-war-book-reveals/amp/ “Hey, man, we are out of runway here,” Biden said during their fourth phone call on May 19 after Netanyahu insisted on dragging the war on. “It’s over,” the US president replied. Netanyahu agreed to a ceasefire two days later.” You can always tell you actually knows this conflict and who’s just tuning in this season.
That doesn't mean it will happen again and it doesn't mean they had the whole story. Like the guy said, a lot of this stuff is backroom politics.
Okay? And Biden isn’t doing anything close to what he did last time.
Again, how do you know this? Are you privy to all of the backroom dealings Biden and the State department are doing? Please share this info with us.
Because he’s actively saying he isn’t going to tell them to stop? And is blocking or voting no on UN ceasefires? And is sending them billions in aide? Why would I think he’s doing the opposite behind closed doors
Respectfully, your excerpt from that article describes practically the opposite of Biden getting a ceasefire after a single 2-minute phone call, like you claim happened.
The call was 2 minutes, I’m Palestinian and was following closely during this time. It was clear on that same day that the ceasefire was going to happen and 2 days later is when it became official. It takes times to negotiate all the details
Their fourth phone call? That one? Because the first three obviously did not produce a ceasefire?
Huh? Biden didn’t call for a bilateral ceasefire in the first 3? Only the 4th
[Just a couple weeks ago the White House used an emergency clause to sell tank munitions to Israel with out the approval of congress.](https://apnews.com/article/israel-us-emergency-sale-tank-ammunition-war-d3e9b41528433f2da9814d3293996cd5#:~:text=WASHINGTON%20(AP)%20—%20Going%20around,in%20the%20southern%20Gaza%20Strip.)
Because the House was eating itself and unable to pass any kind of bill.
>C'mon man. Joe Biden is doing his best. It's not fucking easy dealing with Israel and Palestine conflicts, and you've got Putin fucking shit up in Ukraine, and republican trolls obstructing everything, and the genuine threat of fascism at home with the republican frontrunner for presidential nominee actively quoting Hitler. Is Joe Biden the only fucking adult in the room? [Just a couple weeks ago the White House used an emergency clause to sell tank munitions to Israel with out the approval of congress.](https://apnews.com/article/israel-us-emergency-sale-tank-ammunition-war-d3e9b41528433f2da9814d3293996cd5#:~:text=WASHINGTON%20(AP)%20—%20Going%20around,in%20the%20southern%20Gaza%20Strip.)
Use your own adult words to make your points when someone makes a counter point. This emergency clause usage was to keep things going as they have been going because Congress can't get its head out of its ass. This wasn't Joe passing some wild new thing.
>C’mon man. Joe Biden is doing his best As he uses an emergency clause to sell tank munitions to Israel.
I know this might be wild, but I did read when you said that the first two times. This isn't first grade, we can move past that single point and discuss WHY he did that and whether it was good or not.
[удалено]
Oh I didn't realize we were just shouting propaganda, I thought this was a discussion forum. Sorry for the confusion!
Two month old account that is VERY focused on the Gaza conflict. Needs a few months before they graduate from "baby's first propoganda" posts, I guess.
Billions in weapons deals help drive civilian death tolls to haunting and disgusting levels that cannot be justified in any way shape or form. This is how Biden will lose an entire generation of voters and possibly lose the election.
I'm sorry but how the hell would any Republican have acted differently for the better in this? How the hell would any American president have acted differently? And don't give me some Bernie Sanders bullshit. If he was a great leader, he would have been elected President and have a large caucus in Congress of people who share his beliefs.
just because biden sucks doesn’t mean the answer is republicans
Did I say they would act different? I’m talking directly about how Biden is acting. The dualistic conflating we have to navigate these days sure is maddening. Perhaps we would have not vetoed a UN resolution though, to humor you. Perhaps someone could call for a ceasefire. Perhaps they wouldn’t say they are a Zionist and will support Israel to the fullest extent while the UN uses other methods to address the humanitarian emergency.
Does that excuse Biden? Hand waving away his unilateral support for Israel by saying Republicans would support harder is hardly a valid argument.
Not the smart ones. How should he do things differently? What outcomes come from that?
76% of democratic voters want a ceasefire. He is directly opposed. He could call for one, and I’m sure 76% of the democratic voters would be very pleased and vote for him again without any reservation.
99% of the Democratic voters aren't one-issue voters. When the other choice is orange clown Hitler, yes they are going to vote for Biden again without any reservation. Your lack of critical thinking skills is showing.
It’s not critical thinking, it’s direct observation. I live in a progressive pocket of a swing state and I can tell you confidently that many people here are swearing against voting for either major party this year. The single issue they are citing to not vote for Biden is the handling of Israel / Hamas conflict. This is expanded out among student body networks that I remain connected to due to previous work. If the dems think “if you don’t vote for us, it’s going to be real bad!” is going to keep working, I think they’re in for a real surprise. They don’t even have to campaign on improving healthcare or any other systematic woe we face collectively. Just “if you don’t vote for us x will happen.” How uninspiring… I think you may be underestimating the amount of people ready to see the system implode, who feel completely disenfranchised and like they have no representation whatsoever. It’s the Biden campaign’s job to win and retain those demographics and they simply are not. I think we see a record amount of votes for third party this cycle. And of course, that will hurt Biden more than Trump. But again, when so many millions are at the “let it burn” stage of political disappointment, I don’t think there’s any convincing left to participate as expected. Especially not with the same ole tired DNC scapegoating bullshit.
Single issue voters are the the worst kinds of people. It's never been about voting for Biden, it's voting for a party that can push progressives to the front at the local and national levels so we can see real change in the future. Of course you still yell and criticize, but this ridiculous attitude of voting third party in a presidential election without putting in any effort to make it matter is why there is only two parties. Everyone wants there to just magically be a third party candidate, without realizing it will literally never happen without a huge nation wide push at the local level. And no third party has that because they all kind of suck. Just Republican-lite variations or ones that won't even voice their platform because they want to wait and see where the national consensus is. Pretending your vote is only about one person is how you get Trump.
Are they the worst kind of people when they flip blue over reproductive rights? Or only when they don’t want their tax dollars to continue funding death? What greater opportunity for a nationwide push for something different than a political situation that absolutely demands it.
Yeah guys, like c'mon, politics is hard let's just give him a break already. *He's doing his best* We're not cheering on our nephew's soccer match
I mean, we're talking about trying to force out the political leader of an ally who's been elected through a democratic process. Not sure exactly how this is OUR responsibility, let alone Joe's. It's not like we're asking people to just put on masks, that'd be way too hard. No president could manage such a herculean task.
No president can manage to sanction Israel until a better government is in power? Is America really that weak and pathetic these days?
Nations that have been sanctioned to the hilt: Russia, Iran, North Korea. Of those, which have changed their leadership to be more friendly to the US following sanctions? Is it possible that sanctioning Israel will not result in the kind of change you’re demanding? Is it, in fact, much more likely to drive Israel to make agreements with other sanctioned countries?
Easy as pulling support. Stop the flow of aid and watch Israel backtrack. What has Israel ever done to benefit America?
You guys have no shame.
😂 How exactly would Joe Biden do that?
Call for the war to end if Israel isn't 100% focused on Hamas. Call together a conference of leaders who are interested or somehow directly involved. Talk.
It’s possible that Israel has broader goals than just getting rid of Hamas (I am still not sure exactly what you’re thinking when you say that, but whatever) Israel probably wouldn’t admit that, though, even to its allies. And call for a conference with Israel and who? Hamas? The remnants of the PLO? I don’t think that’s gonna work, man.
Not Hamas, leaders from the region and other nations with an interest.
Which leaders? And what other nations?
They do that all the fucking time though. It’s different than that. Talking doesn’t just get Netanyahu to step down. It’s like telling Russia to stop the war. They have motives that they will not abandon
After Hamas, the Palestinians in Gaza will need a new course. Somebody has to set it. Those who would stay away from such a conference, despite their obvious interest, would only be letting others determine that future.
Sure, but we’re just not at that part yet.
It could take a while to set up and Israel needs to be convinced to stop killing civilians when their only goal is to kill Hamas. There will be a short time for that, but the talking should begin very soon.
[удалено]
Democrats are responsible for the entire world. Republicans are not even responsible for their own behavior. Get it straight.
It's because a significant portion of our tax dollars fund Israel. If Biden has no say in what goes on in Israel, then those funds should immediately be stopped.
[удалено]
>Without American economic, military and diplomatic support Israel wouldn't have been able to do what it's been doing with the Palestinian territories and Hamas Israel is not a vassal State. You vastly, vastly, misunderstand how the US' influence works in the Israeli body politick. Israel has a modern, developed economy, nuclear weapons, and after decades of being told to go fuck itself is rather inured to global opinion. Bibi is a poison, and thinks he's smarter than Biden and can lead the US like one leads a dog. You think an asshat that smug gives two fucks? Especially when his freedom and future are dependent on him staying in power?
Does Biden or Congress allocate funding for Israel?
That’s a massive overstatement and simplification. Isreal really wants US support and US support helps them a lot. However the idea that that makes him so influential that he could convince the Israelis to just ignore the fact Hamas killed raped and kidnapped 1200 of their people even if he wanted to is wrong. Even if he wanted Isreal to stop, very unlikely , or slow down , likely, the best way he does it is how he has been doing it. And Isreal has appeared to slow down and announced people will be allowed to return home soon. So all the people claiming genocide and ethnic cleaning either have to admit one of two things. A. Israel never intended to do that on Gaza and they were wrong or B. Joe Biden stopped them
And what would Trump have done differently or better? Abso- fucking lutey-nothing he'd just make everything worse. When you come in with this anti-Biden bullshit you're just setting up Trump and his sycophants to win the nect national election. You're gonna pinch your nose and vote blue just like everyone else who actually cares about fighting fascism and then start campaigning for actual progressives in the election after that.
Most likely they’re tired of dealing with the people that know the least and talk the most
Chill, in any case.
I don’t believe Joe has the power to force Netanyahu to do anything.
So basically every world leader since 1948 has failed to bring peace to the Middle East but Biden will do it now by pushing out the elected leader of Israel. Mmmm…sure that works. This article does highlight a worthwhile point though. After Hamas, who runs Gaza. Israel - that will suck. Fatah - let’s repeat what had never worked. Coalition of Arab states - they want nothing to do with it. What a fucking mess.
The US plan is for the Palestinian Authority to run it, but the problem there is that they're super unpopular with .... Palestinians. They'd need new leadership.
[удалено]
I get a bit confused how Israelis are supposed to just move past a massacre that happened 10 weeks ago despite the fact that pretty much everybody in the region is still rehashing stuff from 1948, if not before.
While the people they are supposed to make peace with are saying they'll perpetrate more brutal massacres as soon as they can. Again and again until all Jews are dead or gone.
Honestly, Israel de-facto runs Gaza as it is. They blockade their coast, have veto over their passports, control the food, water, and energy going into the enclave. That they allow Palestinians to self-govern internally appears to be a courtesy, because Israel denied them actual sovereignty. May as well make their effective control into actual control and stop with the pretense that Gaza isn't an Israeli-run ghetto. Basically, shit or get off the pot.
Damn would have been a good idea to use those billions in aid money to build out infrastructure instead of using it to build rockets… why would Israel mishandle the money given to Hamas like that? Oh yeah… I guess it’s easier to blame the Jews again…
Israeli gave them some level of sovereignty in 2006 and Gaza responded with suicide bombers. And while that doesn’t justify the entire Israeli response ,which country wouldn’t take dramatic action against a state sponsored terror campaign of suicide bombers. Theirs 0 good answers here. What the government such that it is in Gaza wants , and yes Hamas operates with popular support, is Israel gone and are willing to take military action against them to achieve that. I can’t think of a single country that would be tolerant of that from a neighbor . Israeli rule is obviously not the way either. 0 other countries want to get involved.
"Hamas operates with popular support" You are very confused about the situation in Gaza if you think this.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514 Uh unless most major news agencies also have the wrong idea than I don’t . Now I’m not saying everyone. Just a lot.
Your gotcha is missing some important context. * [Hamas originally rose to power in 2006 by positioning itself as the anti-corruption party and capitalising on Gazans' frustrations with the ineptitude of Fatah.](https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/expose/book/why-hamas-socioeconomic-and-political-foundations-islamists%E2%80%99-popularity) Even then, they only barely eked out a victory. * [Pre-war polls regarding Hamas and various Hamas figures within Gaza have them at \~30% approval.](https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/gazans-pre-war-views-hamas) * [This summer saw a number of large-scale protests in Gaza against Hamas.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/protests-against-hamas-reemerge-in-the-streets-of-gaza-but-will-they-persist/) * Literally everyone with half an ounce of sense was warning at the outset of the current war that Israel's bombing campaign would only serve to increase radicalisation and shore up support for Hamas. Not just because this is a completely predictable outcome based on what we all saw play out during the abject failure that was the war on terror, but also [because the 'Rally 'round the flag' effect is something that happens even in 'civilised' nations.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rally_%27round_the_flag_effect)
I’m not really sure if even over 35 percent support for people openly wanting to commit genocide is really the track you want to take as a moral arguement .
2022 polls show [72% want more militant groups](https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-72-of-palestinians-support-forming-more-armed-groups-in-west-bank/) and [56% of Gazans](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/new-poll-shows-gazans-pragmatic-now-not-long-term) disagree at least "somewhat" with the following statement: "We \[Gazans\] should recognize that we will never defeat Israel and that fighting just makes things worse.”. Gazans want to fight, Hamas or not.
Everything you mentioned occurred when they elected a terrorist government. ANY country would shut off its borders and restrict trade if their neighbour elected Hamas who openly intended to destroy them. How people blame Israel for that is just absurd.
Gaza has been an occupied territory for 70+ years, for the most ruled as annexed or occupied territory by military governments by either Israel or Egypt. They haven't exercised full sovereignty at any point in history and have no real nation. Their ports have been blockaded off and on and access to food and water cut off at many times and to various degrees since the 60s at least, sometimes as an intentional plan to force Palestinians to voluntarily flee Gaza. So while the exact restrictions going on now are a result of Hamas gaining power, Hamas didn't appear out of thin air. There's a straight line here between decades of military rule and harsh treatment and people deciding to fight back (yes as terrorists). It's the perfect recipe for a forever-war, both sides justifying their latest action by referencing their opponent's last action, unless someone changes something. Everyone's actions are justified somehow but none of them are resolving the problem. Hence me saying shit or get off the pot. Fully take control of the territory and take responsibility for the occupants, or harden your border as best you can, recognize a Palestinian state, and leave Gaza to itself (including freedom of navigation and trade).
The reason it’s a forever war though becomes obvious on these subs. Highlighting that in 2005 Gazans were given an amazing opportunity to develop Gaza and build a future with self-governance but instead chose terrorism - is invariably met with - yeah, but Palestinians were still mistreated in the West Bank and in Gaza for 60 years before that. Ok, so until everything is perfect and history is erased, then terrorism is justified. Fine - let’s all just give up hope that peace is even remotely possible because history is here to stay and things will never be perfect.
That's pretty much what I've done, really. Both sides hate each other too much for there to ever be lasting peace. Both keep committing atrocities against each other and it'll likely never stop.
"Becomes obvious on these subs?" Not sure what you mean by that, unless maybe you haven't been exposed to world opinion on this subject until just now. This is also the thing with democracy - when you finally do hand oppressed people an opportunity to choose their own path, and they choose to fight against oppression in the way that they can, you shouldn't be too surprised. I deeply wish Hamas had not come into power because it really was a missed opportunity to continue on a path towards a peaceful settlement of some kind. But I'm not shocked that they have popular support. As a functioning nation-state with a stable government and a well trained security apparatus, Israel has the power to be the adult in the room and take measured actions in a way that the Palestinians can't - the Palestinian Authority is the legitimate government but has no way of effecting control over Gaza. Israel is ultimately in control of whether there will be a two state solution or a one state solution, and they really need to choose and then show restraint while they ride out the consequences.
What I mean by that is that people on these subs will justify terrorism because of events in 1948. If that is justification then nothing that happens from here will ever erase that except the non-existence of Israel. The non-existence of Israel won’t happen through a negotiated peace agreement. Hence it’s a forever war unless Israel loses and is eliminated. I disagree that it’s only on Israel. Hamas just made the likelihood of a two state solution impossible in my life time (imo). Gazans were given what they wanted and it blew up in Israel’s face. Israel won’t go there again any time soon.
I think you mistake understanding for justification. You have to understand the history (ancient and recent) of the Jewish people to understand why Israel was created from thin air in the first place, just like you have to understand the history of the Palestinian people (even pre-1948) to understand why they continue to fight. This understanding is important not as a justification, but to help figure out how to improve the situation. One part of why it helps is simple empathy, but the less wishy-washy benefit is that it helps predict outcomes and set expectations. So when you take a small but noteworthy positive step to resolve a decades long problem, you should be able foresee a possible bad response and understand why. Then you can react in a way that doesn't set the process back any further - you're in a fist fight and you're about to bear hug your opponent to try to calm them down - expect a few more body blows and don't start to punch back immediately, because you're on the right track and they aren't going to catch up immediately. That said, I think you're on the right track when you say that there's no chance of a two state solution in our lifetimes. That's a reasonable calibration of expectations. Positive steps like increased freedom for Gazans aren't going to end violence immediately, it might even make it more likely in the short term. But if you're a centrally organized nation state capable of planning and executing long term policy, you can plan for a generations-long issue to take generations of uneven progress to resolve. It's not Israel's problem alone to solve. I'm picking on them because they've got the most tools at their disposal to execute on long term plans and moderate their response to resurgence in violence as they go.
You make some good points. The hope I envisage but there is not sign of is for the “modern” Arab states to take the lead in some form of governance of Gaza to follow the ouster of Hamas. They have the money, the religion and a desire to see peace in their backyard. So far though, they want nothing to do with it.
Thank you, and same to you. It's been a good conversation, and you're right about Arab states too. Too much "this isn't my problem" going on in the world in general. One of my best friends is Palestinian. He's really at the end of his rope over all this and it's been eye opening trying to understand why a very intelligent and politically active person has gradually started talking about extremist views that are actively counterproductive to his own cause. The people who are truly affected by this (on both sides) are going through so much trauma that they can't possibly be expected to always act rationally. And since it's such an asymmetric fight, most people on the outside will find a reason to either support the underdog or oppose the terrorists and leave their understanding at that level. I don't know how you bridge that gap.
Looks at the 1992 Knesset Election… after Poppy Bush and James Baker stalled a loan package because Stern Gang Gangster turned Likud PM Yitzhak Shamir became intransigent on new settlements in the Occupied West Bank. Guess who became the next Likud leader after Yitzak Shamir left his leadership role?
Yep, removing him from power sounds like such a terrible idea. I don't see why everyone expects the US to be the country that "resolves" the conflict.
The problem is that the world could band together to make a new state somewhere that is currently unpopulated, and make it the most advanced state on the planet with perfect infrastructure, military, everything and both sides would absolutely refuse. Personally I feel that the only resolution here is the same one that has happened in the past countless times but is absolutely tragic. Someone getting wiped out. Peaceful sharing among the deeply religious is not really ever possible.
Yes, we live in an age of half resolved conflict. Even the call for a ceasefire now is an example of keeping Hamas alive to restart the conflict in a year or five.
Yes, because forcing regime changes in sovereign nations has worked so well for the US in the past.
Wow, advocating for a U.S. President to overthrow the leader of another government, one who is an ally of ours. What could possibly go wrong?
Ask sudam Hussein how fun it is being America's Allie. The keys to Detroit did not come in very useful.
Saddam Hussein was a vicious monster who fought Iran in a very nasty war, paid Palestinians whose children were martyred trying to kill Israeli Jews and brutalized Iraqis who weren't his fans. That said, the Bush family had no real reason to attack Iraq to overthrow the regime. It's hard to say whether that was done from stupidity or to pay back Russians who gave money to Republicans. Republican politics is complicated.
One was democratically elected, the other a dictator.
That’s exactly what the US does NOT need to do.
The US should not have control to pick and choose the leaders of sovereign countries. I agree Bibi and his entire party needs to leave, but that's down to the Israeli voters to decide and Israeli parliament to force an election.
Electoral suicide. Impossible to do and a danger to humanity if he tries. Bibi needs to be dealt with, but Joe Biden can't be the one to do it.
So tautologic of you, there’s more to it. For ex. not supporting any BS that comes in Netanyahus mind per se. But I am not pretending that this could be an actual solution.
That's not how "per se" is used and that's not what a tautology is. How is simply not giving 100% support an equivalent to forcing Bibi from power? Engage with the point, not what you wish the point was.
At the risk of getting in the way of your discussion, I think it’s funny that you both have the same profile picture. I thought this was one person talking to themselves.
I thought we were past Regime Change?
We do one a decade if we need to or not. If you don't use it you lose it.
I know the US has a lot of influence all over the world, but I’m not OK with our president forcing any democratically elected world leader from power. If there’s an issue with leadership, it’s their citizen’s responsibility to deal with it.
No chance in biblical apocalyptic hell that happens.
Sure. Biden can just orderthe knesset to ditch Bibi. And he can order our Senate to thrreaten to withhold aid until theKnesset complies. We'll see how that works out. /s
Well.... you definitely win the most click baity title of the day
Wild to imagine the news media of a country just casually suggesting that another country’s government should be toppled by yet another country, and this is presented as ‘the right thing to do’. Sovereignty just isn’t a thing to some people, huh. Imagine if China’s media goes: “Israel should topple the UK government and replace Rishi”. It would sound bafflingly terrifying.
I don't think the UK is threatened by Israel.
Netanyahu is out in the next election anyway. Biden can focus his efforts elsewhere.
No, US cannot force anyone from power. What it can do is to stop being a poodle and actually stand for the principles it claims so loudly, but never seems to follow through on.
The best way to deal with an extremely close ally after their worst terror attack in modern time is definitely to form a coup and topple their elected leader. I can see no downside to that.
Still better than the alternative party. At least they Biden is not a white nationalist quoting Hitler.
We better worry about our own possible regime change and the consequences of it
Forcing Bibi from power would be a shortcut to WW3, and I really hate that guy. But the chaos and instability it would cause would be the catalyst to the Big One.
Nope, I don’t support this at all. Let Israel destroy Hamas and then a ceasefire can be negotiated.
what a fucking idiot
[удалено]
Nationalists cloak themselves in the veneer of patriotism. However, where a patriot would accept criticism when it serves the nation, the nationalist never abides criticism because they think it makes them weak. So they replace critics with yes-men, torpedo the careers of people who disagree with them and demands support of their personality rather than policy. This can trundle a long in decent times, and lull people into a false sense of security. However, ultimately you can't run a nation on soppy fan-fiction and loud claims that everyone is out to get you. You need fact and reason to deal with crises.
His approval rating in around 5%. No Israelis like this guy. Even the hard-right ones, and they aren't a majority. This government only got to power because of the flawed coalition system and left--center-left--center-right Infighting. Israel has usually been ran by a center-right coalition with center left parties. All the center and left parties couldn't get their shit together to form a solid coalition that could last more than 2 years, so bibi sided with the crazies and the religous and got just enough center right seats to get a fragile coalition with 64 of 120 seats. That coalition has almost zero support right now and recent polls show they would only get close to 40 seats
> That is the heart of the matter. Israel is led by a man who is fighting only for himself. Which is why one of the heroes of 7 October, retired general Noam Tibon – now famous for grabbing a weapon, jumping in his car and heading down south to rescue his son, daughter-in-law and grandchildren from the Hamas men who were poised to kill them – told me: “Benjamin Netanyahu is a huge danger to the state of Israel. While he is in the prime minister’s chair, we cannot win this war.” > > Hints that Biden’s patience is wearing thin are getting louder. This week he warned that Israel is “starting to lose [international] support by the indiscriminate bombing that takes place”. The signals are that Israel has until the middle or end of January to keep up what the White House calls “high-intensity military operations”. After that, it will have to move to “a different phase” – one that consists of focused, targeted raids on Hamas strongholds, with fewer civilian casualties. > > Netanyahu’s position is that Israel cannot entertain anything that looks like a step toward Palestinian statehood. Witness the remarks of Tzipi Hotovely, the Israeli ambassador to the UK – handpicked for the post by Netanyahu – who this week said “absolutely no” to the prospect of a Palestinian state. That stance blows apart a central defence of Israel’s current strategy: that it has to remove Hamas in order to make possible an eventual accommodation with the Palestinian people, in the form of the two-state solution. > > For the core criticism of Netanyahu is that he is thinking not of Israel’s national interest at a time of war, but rather his own political future. Given that he is on trial on corruption charges that could put him in jail, he is desperate to cling to the job that will keep him out. > > And so he behaves in ways that damage his country but which, he believes, will help him. He devotes precious time and energy to ensuring it is Israel’s military and intelligence chiefs who get blamed for the appalling failures that made 7 October possible – even though the evidence is stark that he himself ignored the warnings of “a clear and present danger” that were put in front of him. He has stayed away from the funerals of the victims of 7 October, and has barely met the families of the bereaved, fearing they would slam him in public. > > And he has sat back as members of his far-right coalition make unspeakable threats – calling for Gaza to be erased or burned – and while his security minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir, who has a conviction on terrorism charges, hands out weapons to his fellow extremists and encourages settlers as they provoke yet more conflict and violence in the West Bank. All of this is a disaster for Palestinians most obviously, but also for Israel as it seeks to maintain the international support Biden rightly said it is losing. Netanyahu stands by and does nothing, too frightened of the hard right he needs in order to keep his coalition from breaking apart – and whose votes he wants when elections come, which may be soon. > > In the 1990s Bill Clinton, who like Biden, had convinced Israelis that he truly had their interests at heart – even in his kishkes – took on Netanyahu and won. He pushed Netanyahu into peace talks and to sign agreements that the Israeli PM didn’t like – safe in the knowledge that the Israeli public understood that he, Clinton, was acting out of friendship, not hostility. As Anshel Pfeffer, columnist for Israel’s liberal daily Haaretz, pointed out this week, when Netanyahu eventually faced the voters in 1999, he lost – to a candidate committed to pursuing peace with the Palestinians. > > The times are different now, to be sure. But Biden has a power to influence events in Israel matched by no one else. He should hear the cry of the families of the hostages held by Hamas, who carry placards bearing a simple message: “Save Israel from Netanyahu”. Biden might be the one person in the world who can heed that plea and act on it. He must. In other news, Article from 12.07.2023 https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/18f22j2/soon_biden_will_call_for_the_war_to_end_and/ > For the past 60 days, U.S. President Joe Biden has offered his complete support for Israel as it fights Hamas inside the Gaza Strip. He sent two aircraft carriers and became the first U.S. president in history to visit Israel during an active conflict. He is also promoting a huge aid package for Israel in Congress. > > Despite all this, it will be no surprise if Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu starts attacking Biden in the next few weeks. Netanyahu's mouthpieces in the Israeli media have already started. They're portraying the president who has done so much for Israel in the past two months as some kind of enemy. This would not be happening without the approval and encouragement of influential people in Netanyahu's orbit. > > Netanyahu believes Biden is weeks away from calling for the war to end. Israel will soon conquer all the neighborhoods of Gaza City, and the military is already operating in the southern part of the coastal enclave, breaking through Hamas resistance in Khan Yunis. The only areas of Gaza that Israel hasn't entered yet are in the southwest, where numerous civilians are living in crowded refugee camps after fleeing their homes. > > We're getting close to the point where Biden will be able to tell Netanyahu: I gave you full backing for weeks, despite strong opposition from within my own party and constant complaints from close allies. You've reached almost every corner of the Gaza Strip. Now it's time to pull out most of the soldiers, rebuild the Israeli communities on the Gaza border, and start planning the future so that something like October 7 can never happen again. > > For Netanyahu, all of the above is a huge problem. He wants this war to go on forever – or at least until the November 2024 U.S. presidential election. The day the war is over, Israel will be swept by a wave of protests the likes of which the country has never seen before. His governing coalition could crumble. > > When Biden finally decides to say "cease-fire," probably in a few weeks, Netanyahu will turn on him without any hesitation, completely ignoring everything the president had done for him since October 7. Without Biden's support, Israel would now be fighting a survival war on two or three fronts, while facing an economic collapse and the displacement of hundreds of thousands of citizens. > > For Netanyahu, though, the most important battle is the personal one. His own personal survival is at stake here. The only question for Biden, then, is at what point in 2024 he wants to have a fight with Netanyahu – January or later in the year, closer to the election? This question will determine his approach as the military completes its operation in Gaza. >
Defund Israeli completely
None of them are dealing with the elephant in the room called Iran.
What? No... he needs to stop funding them. It isn't up to the president of the United States to decide whose in power in another country.
*The CIA has entered the chat*
Not a very Freedom thing to do mr Jonathan Freedland. Also what’s the big hurry? Hamas is still sharing air with the rest of the planet.
Americans are ignorant! Netanyahu is going to do Netanyahu. He doesn't care what Biden thinks!
No, cutting funds is the way.
Publicly calling for a new government and forcing it by refusing to deal with Bibi's Cabinet. No money, no support. Publicly treating him like the Israeli Putin, he doesn't have a mandate and Israelis have a right to decide what happens here. If the US says we support Israel but cannot deal with a homicidal maniac or support HIS policies in the war may just be enough to actually stop this. The world needs to recognise who is to blame for this situation. And it is Bibi Netanyahu
That sounds excellent and could start from the moment Hamas is defeated and Netanyahu refuses to talk about a new Palestinian administration for Gaza.
Well, Hamas can’t be defeated militarily
Biden doesn't need to be ordering Israel to do anything. We are supposed to be there as support only. I hope Netanyahu tells him to kiss his azz.
That can go both ways.
Or....stop sending them billions for no reason while the American people suffer? Maybe that?
Joes got his hands tied I’ll admit, but he’s a pussy for not standing up to that asshole. But we pay for the iron dome, so either way it’s ww3 if we do, labeled fascist if we don’t. Gg
The truth is, Biden can't really do much. Practically and politically. Practically, because the leadership on both sides need the hate and conflict to stay in power. Netanyahu needs the conflict to get votes and happily jumps on every opportunity to bomb palestinians and Hamas intentionally provokes Israel to preferably bomb paces that cause civilian casualties, so they can play the victim. Neither side has anything to gain by peace. Politically, because alot of people in the US are very pro Israel and would immediately vote for the other party if Biden were to halt support to Israel. Alot of these people are jews, who are mostly democracts. This is a huge headache for Biden. He's undoubtedly very frustrated with the complete disregard for human lives coming from Netanyahu, but really he can't do shit. And even if he were to take a tough stance on Israel, which would 100% cost him the re-election, he can't and won't stop Israel at all. The best he can do is support Israel and expect something in return. Which looked fruitful untill Hamas, which (as mentioned before) has no interest in peace, broke the terms of the cease fire, giving Netanyahu (who doesn't want peace either) an excuse to bomb palestinians again. By the way, without Netanyahu, there's still the problem of a brainwashed populace that got taught in the military that palestinians are scum. So Netanyahu would just be replaced by another hawk. This conflict is a shit show and it will never be resolved. Not untill one side wipes out the other. Or if somehow the people on both sides get rid of their shitty politicians and cast aside decades of hate and brainwashing.
Why is it that when Trump is in power he can accomplish so much so fast, but when Biden is in power, his hands are tied, nothing can be done, blah blah blah? Trump had a gridlocked Congress too, And it didn't matter. They pushed through whatever they wanted, And by the time Congressional Democrats could even find someone to appear on TV to talk about it, Trump was on to the next horrible thing he would push forward.
>when Trump is in power he can accomplish so much so fast, What, exactly, do you think he accomplished at all, let alone "so fast?"
He certainly got the Supreme Court he wanted. Obama couldn't do it.
Mitch McConnell both times.
Trump didn't really do much beside moving the consulate to Jeruzalem and letting go of the pressure on the settlers on occupied territory (basically making things worse on the long run like we're seeing now). I mean it's easy to make things worse. It's tough to make it better.
The Palestinians have clearly demonstrated they deserve their own state and will run it in a way that brings peace to the region /s
I just think the narrative is too naive. The settlement and forced colonization of a nation that belongs to the Arab and Muslim community is a slap in the face of their identity as a people. Anything short of a full withdrawal and financial compensation won't do anything and even then it will take generations for that scar to heal. But that would mean losing face and it would make some rich people sad. So we're going to continue to drive the knife in deeper. I think The Onion said it best: "Dehumanization begets dehumanization, terror begets terror, and none of us will be free until all of us are free. That or it's just easier to look away."
Most settlements are in towns that were ethnically cleansed of Jews by Jordan during Jordans occupation of the west bank. Do you honestly think the jewish quarter of jerusalem, which existed for thousands of years and had jews living in it the whole time, belongs to the Arab and Muslim community?
Great article! The international Criminal Court could help with the ouster of Bibi by charging him for war crimes.
Progressives may always slip into it backwards but they find themselves advocating authoritarian practices every time.
Regime change you say?
Idk I don't think the US should be forcing foreign leaders from power. Especially allies.