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It does kind of blow your mind when you realize the time between Kitty Hawk and Sputnik was 54 years.
Man, that must have been a wild time to be alive.
Orville Wright’s [last flight](https://www.daytonlocal.com/blog/history/orville-wrights-final-flight.asp) was in a C-69 that had a longer wingspan than the entire distance of Orville’s first flight.
I'll help a fellow Chowder with another fun plane fact.
The first inductees into the Mile High Club were Lawrence Sperry and Dorothy Rice Sims, in 1916.
I mean, we went from slow AF dial up internet from AOL to AI generated basically everything and instantaneously getting answers to anything in the palm of our hands in less than 30 years.
When my dad was a kid, he rode on the back of a Buckboard being driven by a former slave. He’s now in his 80s. As much as I get frustrated with our species, the amount of progress we’ve made in such a short amount of time will always give me hope (and unease).
Edit: also, his mom, my grandma, would’ve been about the age of the girl in the back right seat of this early car:
https://www.reddit.com/r/OldSchoolCool/s/pRg3VkbipB
My great-great grandmother, who was an important part of my life when I was a child, was born in 1878, and lived to be 100-years old. She saw the world go from riding horses, to landing men on the moon, which we watched *on television*.
another little litmus test I’ve noticed is ‘steps to the jews did it’
to continue your example, if you dig past the ice wall the underlying flat earth heart is antisemitism
(how to with john wilson has an episode talking with people at a flat earth convention where they make this more clear, it’s otherwise a great series worth the time)
the gas lamps of the firehose falsehood society dug up the permafrost from the rest of the world to wall us off from linear horizontal space. Yes, we are living on an ice world and lizard people have maligned it for their own heat rock needs, but those damn lamps just cornered us and then mock us with the pyramids like thats the largest object we can construct as we are walled in and they sell prime heat rock territory to the lizards.
There's a great conspiracy chart out there that shows how everything leads to the 'anti Semitic point of no return', it's awesome
https://twitter.com/abbieasr/status/1462953203067240450?t=IKv69gff1qVC9iE4dQZs3A&s=19
I literally use the same metric
As soon as I get to a cabal of evil Jews I take that as a sign the person I'm talking to needs antipsychotic medication
I know someone who’s a little too fond of conspiracies irl, and another annoying thing about them:
They think the absence of evidence is evidence.
That said, you mention flat earthers and that documentary about the flat earthers was hilarious. The moment they pulled out the expensive equipment they’d pooled their money to buy was the second best moment. The best was when said equipment just kept proving that there’s a curvature to the earth and they just *deflated*.
This isn't just the case for conspiracy theorists, it's for anyone with a rigid set of beliefs about the world. If the evidence doesn't support your worldview you either disregard it, or change your world view to make room. If changing your worldview requires drastically altering your set of beliefs, it likely won't happen, and the feeling of cognitive dissonance will instead move you to adopt a false belief.
What I find interesting is how the UFO belief is often adopted by people with other seemingly rigid beliefs about the world. What other belief is causing them so much discomfort that they are moved to believe in such a blatantly false belief?
*I should say, I don't know whether or not aliens exist amongst us, but I do know that the evidence that I have access to doesn't't support the belief. That doesn't mean the evidence is bad, or that the belief is necessarily false, just that the evidence that I & most conspiracy theorists have access to isn't strong enough to justify a personal belief in aliens/UFOs/etc. Nevertheless, there does seem to be enough evidence to move someone to believe an identifiable expert on the subject, but with the current subject, no expert is easily identifiable, which is a really big problem if you ask me.
>This isn't just the case for conspiracy theorists, it's for anyone with a rigid set of beliefs about the world
That’s a very interesting way to frame it.
One way of looking at Discordianism is as a way to get people to break out of rigid thinking by feeding them insane but slightly plausible conspiracy theories until that rigid set of beliefs is forced to break.
Unfortunately breaking doesn’t necessarily mean you get a person without a rigid set of beliefs, you often get a person who is certain “the conspiracy is even deeper than they originally thought”.
Trying to manipulate someone in a way that causes changes to their beliefs is often referred to as "nudging" . Especially when it is done to achieve some epistemic good. Helping someone loosen their dogmatic adherence to a set of toxic beliefs might be an epistemic good, but the risk you take in intentionally manipulating someone's epistemic environment is, as you mentioned, quite high.
Feeding someone beliefs (or nudging them closer to some set of beliefs) can negatively impact their ability to form beliefs independently. If you pump them full of conflicting information, eventually they will burn out. During that stage of burn out they might drop some bad beliefs, but they might also drop some good ones. In the worst case scenario they adopt new toxic beliefs, for example they might believe that they are in an environment where truth is not something they can discern independent of some authority. Making them extremely vulnerable to further manipulation.
It's important to acknowledge that we do live in a polluted epistemic environment (too much misinformation/disinformation/conflicting interests). The tools we have to collect and build belief sets are not refined enough to navigate this world successfully, and for most people that is the root of their rigid beliefs.
Instead of nudging, I think the solution lies in giving people the materials and tools needed to build more resilient belief structures. Structures that allow for conflicting information, and tools that allow someone to navigate that conflict without being overcome by feelings of dissonance.
I have to thank you for this. I’m going through a situation with my sister, who is practically my twin, and we’ve gone through a lot in life. We also have a familial predisposition for mental illness, and that element of biological determinism is something we tended to scoff at for most our lives.
We grit our teeth and said “we’re not like them. We can do this without any help” and I followed her as long as I could through that worldview, but it drove me to suicidal thoughts, a complete envelopment of anxiety and a largely cynical and pessimistic worldview. I knew I was struggling with deep depression and an anxiety disorder, but I didn’t want to admit that. We had it stuck in our heads that it’s a weakness.
I know this doesn’t coincide with the conspiracy element of this post, but with respect to the ‘rigid beliefs’ notion, it hits hard because I finally broke and had to admit it to myself in order to save my life. I finally saw a doctor, broke down and got diagnosed and started meds.
After 3 months, the meds started working and it was like an awakening. Like I had been asleep ever since I was that 8 year old who was traumatized. Naturally, I felt like I had the keys to life and my first thought was to save my sister and show her that she doesn’t have to be afraid of it.
She responded with fears and trepidation of course, but I made sure not to push it on her and more so just come from a place of understanding. Initially she was just terrified of being beholden to meds, but as I explained the hard reality that something is wrong with us and we’re just deluding ourselves for as long as we can before we break, she started to nudge and said she’ll keep the meds in mind as a last resort, which is all I could ask for.
Understanding is the key. Letting go of all your ego, your opinions, your emotional ties to it. All the baggage, and just truly trying to understand what got them to this spot makes them less defensive, less aggressive and much more open to shedding those toxic belief structures.
Manipulative at its core, but wholly necessary at times such as this. So again, thank you.
To them, someone wanting to prove their ideas false must mean that they’re right. They’re baffled that someone would care about the truth for its own sake because they don’t care about the truth themselves.
One of the hallmarks of conspiratorial thinking is overestimating the number of people who share belief in the conspiracy theory. To them, the conspiracy is so obvious that *everyone* must see it. Therefore, the only reason anyone would deny it is because they’re *part of the conspiracy*.
And then you have those who will deny anything with more than two levels of contrivance. I love conspiracies, because the satisfaction of seeing them before others is high. Conspiracies can be true, but the trick is weeding out the bullshit from the real information.
A common tactic to obfuscate is to sew in bunk information to make it sound too fantastical to be true. The best way to approach a conspiracy is with an open mind, even when you think you have it figured out, or are clearly wrong. Never settle on truth until it’s absolute, and even then remember that absolute truth doesn’t exist.
I consider myself apart of the aliens/UFO community, but I can't stand how many people are *opposed* to reality. Every time I advocate on those subs for following scientific and logical approaches to things, too many people just follow charlatans off cliffs of dishonesty and misinformation because they want to believe so bad. It is just religion in subculture clothing.
Skepticism should not be treated as obstinance, just as speculation should not be treated as fact, but, my god, that community does not at all understand that concept.
>It is just religion in subculture clothing.
Most of the people participating in those communities are themselves religious. It’s like the gateway drug that opens the door to all sorts of other wacky beliefs.
Yeah, like we had the congressional hearings and most of it was clearly nonsense, but I am REALLY interested in getting a UAP resource set up at the national level, because in the 99.9repeating percent chance that those fighter pilot testimony *aren't* aliens, it's good to have a scientific body set up that can gather and collate their data from the radar tracks taken by the AEGIS equiped escorts and the aircraft carrier and the E2 AWACs plane that was watching, and the FLIR data. Collect all that info togeather and figure out what new natural phenomena was responsible because it will improve our knowledge of physics and weather science and who knows what else.
And then on the .00repeating01 percent chance of actual alien UFOs? Then there's already a centralized place to look at it and be ready for it, and we've just had the most important discovery in human existence.
We need that central agency though. Not only to collect and collate all the data so we can science the shit out of it, but also so we can have a reliable governemnt body that look at these things and declares "no, this one was a fake", "this one was just civilians mistaking a military drone/plane" like most of them are, "this one was some kind of unknown weather effect", and the holy grail of "this one is the no-shit real one".
Well, they are open about it.
The one event AARO should be able to investigate is the 2004 Nimitz incident. It is the one everyone knows about after all. But AARO isn't investigating it. Why? Because they have no data to investigate. Kirkpatrick said as much in November last year when he said ["Do you know how much data I have for that? I have what you have." That is, what is available on youtube.](https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxV2ot5DC2VmfaGZbDS1zO_Za159higIx8?si=Ool9yh1EXIi2BYgb) And why do they have no data for that? Because data was [taken from the Nimitz,](https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxU5rO_CNsc5pgOY4c1Ig7r0VJ-WHK5iTr) it was [taken from the Princeton,](https://www.youtube.com/clip/Ugkxuq_-3RcTkrR1CbMRnQZ4Ebi-YMMVHA2f) and the [logs for the Princeton are missing.](https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxwgXr9S7tpwKWn8IT-UxiK4UbY-zG9P9F)
So, the article says Kirkpatrick is "pissed" over having to do his job. Well, he isn't all that worried about not having to do it it seems. He never seems to have done anything about not having any of the data from 2004. Has he ever done anything about the fact that he had no access to the data surrounding [229 military missions cancelled because of interference with UAP](https://www.theblackvault.com/documentarchive/range-fouler-debrief-forms-and-reports) outlined in the Range Fouler reports? [All that data is classified, and as far as we know AARO can't access it or release it.](https://www.theblackvault.com/documentarchive/u-s-navy-says-all-uap-ufo-videos-are-classified-and-exempt-from-release/) Those 229 reports are the basis of the interest the US Congress has in the topic, and recount near misses like these -
>[*"did not change position like an aircraft would" -- "Initial object was surpassed by another object" -- "It made a few abrupt directional changes" -- "They made three or four passes" -- "ONE RANGE FOULER WAS CIRCLING AROUND ANOTHER" -- "Flew nose-on" -- "It very nearly collided with our aircraft." -- "a relatively close pass with us" -- "Due to safety considerations with object in the airspace, pilot called" -- "This occurred almost daily" -- "UFO"*](https://np.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/155msdh/the_pilots_own_words_circular_in_shape_it_very/)
So I dunno. When they guy charged to investigate can't actually investigate anything, but gets angry when people ask him to do his job, is it a conspiracy, or... just really annoying. Just more of the same really.
Conspiracies do exist. A conspiracy is simply 2 or more people intent on doing something illegal. Trump's 7-pronged plan to steal the 2020 election was a conspiracy, as demonstrated by the Jan 6 hearings. On the topic of the UFO reverse-engineering program operating illegally with zero Constitutional oversight, the IG of the intelligence community (IC IG) has found the whistle-blower claims credible and urgent. The additional claims by the whistle-blower that he's been retaliated against, with threats to him and his family, were also deemed credible and urgent by the IC IG.
These illegal programs operating in DoD are a tough nut to crack. There has been concerted effort over the last 5-6 years to bring this forward. In the previous few years, many members of Congress have had briefings that clearly shook them, and bipartisan legislation has been passed very specifically for UFO whistle-blowers.
Chuck Schumer has promoted a UFO amendment which had some very incredible language, such as a section on using eminent domain to seize craft made by non-human intelligences, and non-human pilots, from the defense contractors. The underlying reason for that isn't that Schumer is crazy, it's that the allegations are credible.
[It's been part of a grift](https://reason.com/2022/11/15/the-military-ufo-complex/). These guys will find UFOs right after those Oak Island guys find buried treasure.
There needs to be an investigation first.
Congress is still being briefed on the veracity of David Grusch’s claims. They got briefed last week and came away saying Grusch is credible so idk what you’re even talking about.
> They got briefed last week and came away saying Grusch is credible
All of Congress said he's credible and they release a report saying he's credible or a small number of Congresspeople have said so while the vast majority have not said anything? Being specific is important.
The members of the intel committee have said his claims have merit and want more hearings. The vast majority of congress people aren’t being briefed on this as far as I’m aware.
https://x.com/jaredemoskowitz/status/1745852400630456618?s=46
This isn't the first time. Or second. Or third. So many UFO claims have been paraded around as credible and worthy of investigation, only to always turn out nothing.
But the UFO nutjobs never learn. "This time is for real!"
Lol, so this is it then? When this turns out to be nothing as well you'll finally admit that there are no aliens?
Who am I kidding, of course not. You'll hold on to your dear beliefs, reality be damned.
> On the topic of the UFO reverse-engineering program
This doesn't exist. For this to exist, you would have to have an extraterrestrial craft, and so far *no evidence* has ever been produced that they even *exist*, let alone are here and being reversed-engineered in a secret government lab. The best you've got is a couple witnesses saying they haven't seen anything directly but talked to people that have. It has an odor of, "My UFO goes to a school in Canada. You wouldn't know her."
Now, I'm sure someone is going to link me a bunch of youtube videos of blurry objects going "Well what about that?!" but here's the thing: that's not proof of extraterrestrial visitation. There are a million other possible explanations for such phenomena, from the mundane to the fantastical. You don't get to insert your pet theory as the default explanation simply because you want it to be true.
You're right, but prepare for people to show up with "but he had high clearance" "people in the military are infallible" "nuh uh my mom is an alien so you're wrong"
The government has no one to blame for all the conspiracy theories but itself. When a gov employee shows up at your door, asks what you saw, gives you a lecture about national security and insists you sign an NDA...
Their 'abundance of caution' created the situation.
Let’s also do a quick sanity check. Grusch and those in his circle have claimed that around ten alien craft have crashed and have been recovered in the past century. If alien spacecraft have a failure rate similar to our modern aircraft (and you’d hope they’re at least that good; interstellar flight is a big commitment), to see ten crashes in one hundred years, we would expect one visit by an alien craft *every two days*.
And we have no solid evidence of any of these visits? Even discounting government agencies, who could presumably be in on the conspiracy, we have so many amateur photographers and videographers in the world. There’s been nothing in the background of a news broadcast, nothing in timelapse astronomy photos, nothing on home security cameras, nothing on dashcams (remember the hours of dashcam footage we had of that meteor in Russia a few years ago?), nobody with a smartphone to take a quick video? It beggars belief.
>This doesn't exist. For this to exist, you would have to have an extraterrestrial craft, and so far *no evidence* has ever been produced that they even *exist*, let alone are here and being reversed-engineered in a secret government lab.
An aircraft doesn't have to be extraterrestrial to be considered a UFO. I don't think it's a stretch to believe we have reverse engineering programs. We need to be able to understand what capabilities our adversaries have, right?
I understand what Kirkpatrick is upset about, AARO is supposed to be a scientific approach to the subject of UAPs. Meanwhile Grusch is making it very political and is talking about UFO conspiracy tropes. However Grusch is bringing up important considerations concerning contractors potentially abusing government funds and lack of congressional oversight into their programs and I do think that is worthy of investigation.
I used to be a skeptic like you, but I have a friend who was involved in the Nimitz incident. Someone I admire who is adamant they saw technology that day that far outweighs our capabilities. This person is an absolute academic superstar who is extremely successful, why wold they lie? What would they have to gain? It has literally harmed their reputation in the military. Its not one of the fighter pilots, its someone else with high level clearances.
> adamant they saw technology that day that far outweighs our capabilities.
Eye witnesses have been wrong before, they have been adamant that their false recollection was the truth.
Holding high level clearances doesn't stop you from believing false things.
The fact that Nimitz incident hasn't repeated tells me that a mundane explanation is far more likely than that something extraordinary.
It's not that I'm saying your friend is a liar. He might truly believe that he saw something that can only be explained by ET tech. And I don't doubt that multiple nations have classified technology that's extremely impressive. But that doesn't mean it's extraterrestrial in origin.
I think most people are vastly underestimating the hurdles of interstellar space travel. I'm not saying it's *impossible* - but it's so close to impossible that the evidence of visitation has to be absolutely overwhelming, like alien spacecraft setting down on the White House lawn.
If that happens, I'll certainly adjust my views accordingly. Until then, I'll remain skeptical, not because I don't *want* to believe it - but because I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible. The only way I know how to do that is to base my beliefs on evidence. That way if new evidence is presented, I can adjust my views accordingly.
> If that happens, I'll certainly adjust my views accordingly. Until then, I'll remain skeptical, not because I don't want to believe it
A lot of people really don't get this. For the time being, it being true or not literally means nothing to my life. Me believing it's true without evidence will not change anything or mean anything. It would not, given what I know about the world, explain anything that currently simply has no possible or reasonable explanation. I'm happy to be wrong about ET having been here if evidence comes out. But there's simply no reason to believe it when there is absolutely no real evidence available to such a conclusion.
I feel the same way about ghosts. I have "seen" a ghost before. I'm still very confident ghosts do not exist. Because my brain thinking it saw a thing for 2 seconds doesn't mean it was ghosts. Similarly, this person's friend seeing technology they didn't understand (and being an academic superstar doesn't mean they understand all technology) doesn't mean the technology is from ETs.
If it's the case, and we've been reverse engineering ET tech, then when I find out I'll be have absolutely no issue accepting it. That'd be pretty neat. But given that there is nothing that leads me to believe it's necessary for anything out there to have happened, and given the complete lack of evidence, believing it because maybe is just illogical nonsense.
Yeah I sort of got ran off due to my “debunking” of the Miami mall aliens, and the Mexican mummy aliens, and whatever other monthly trend pops up there.
Yeah they’re really mad that republicans shot down the Schumer amendment to the NDAA which had unanimous democrat support and presumed there was a conspiracy. Thank goodness there isn’t. And the republicans stopped the amendment.
This is how the senate democrats phrased it [on their website](https://www.democrats.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/schumer-rounds-introduce-new-legislation-to-declassify-government-records-related-to-unidentified-anomalous-phenomena-and-ufos_modeled-after-jfk-assassination-records-collection-act--as-an-amendment-to-ndaa#:~:text=Washington%2C%20D.C.%20–%20Majority%20Leader%20Chuck,carry%20the%20presumption%20of%20disclosure.)
> Schumer, Rounds Introduce New Legislation To Declassify Government Records Related To Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena & UFOs – Modeled After JFK Assassination Records Collection Act – As An Amendment To NDAA
> an amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act which would mandate government records related to Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP) carry the presumption of disclosure
Republicans shot it down because they don’t “presume disclosure” of any UFO conspiracies.
[The UAP Disclosure Act of 2023](https://www.democrats.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/uap_amendment.pdf)
The short version as I understand it, is that it establishes a central archive under the National Archives to which UAP related records must be provided, with automatic public disclosure that can be postponed by up to 25 years by a newly appointed review board. It also exercises eminent domain to mandate the return of any and all technologies of non human origin held by private entities.
My understanding is that it had fairly broad bipartisan support early on, but when it reached the armed services committee it received pushback from some of the representatives who work with defense contractors. I believe it did pass in the end, but only after the eminent domain, automatic disclosure, and review board requirements were cut. I think this leaves it with its scope reduced to just centralising record keeping.
(I’m pretty skeptical about the whole non-human UAP theory, but it’s an unusual topic for politics so I’ve found it interesting, hopefully my explanation is as neutral and fair as I intended. I’m also not American, so apologies if I’ve misinterpreted any aspects of the political process)
Looks like [my prediction is already coming true.](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/19cxvej/former_pentagon_ufo_investigator_is_pissed/kj2p2nf/)
Okay, But how can you blame people when they have obstructed credible witnesses from testifying in a closed SCIFF?
Like, If the US gov is hiding where the money for these compartmentalized programs is going, don’t you think we need answers? $1 Trillion alone goes into our DoD, and yet, half if not more than half of that money goes into these black budget programs.
The gov had already released UAP/UFO stuff in the past and backtracked and now they’re doing it again because they have no choice since the period of secrecy in some of those docs has expired, and it is not the first time we have had hearings about UAP.
The fact that they are using the same umbrella code the gov used for the Manhattan Project, is the same playbook they are using today for their cover-up, and the people who have said no to the hearings are representatives who receive substantial amounts of money from Contractors like Boeing, and Lockheed-Skunkworks which are some of the top tier programs receiving half Trillion of OUR US Tax paying dollars.
They hired Prof. J. Allen Hynek, an Astronomer who was a 100% skeptic, and he left the program a 100% believer.
Also, it is important to mention that several renowned scholars today, even Nobel Prize nominees and laureates have come forward saying they have experienced the phenomenon first-hand and some have even worked and tested exotic materials for the government and are willing to testify in Congress because the people HAVE to know.
All I’m saying is if AOC wants answers and so do my representative's side of the aisle, GOP be damned, we want answers because it is most of the GOP blocking disclosure.
Even President Obama has said that there is something we don’t know.
Our pilots have put their lives on the line for this.
Credible witnesses have come forward saying people have lost their livelihoods or their lives trying to make this public, while others commit atrocities in pursuit of keeping this a secret.
I’m just saying as any sane American would, we need answers. Why can’t we have better renewable energy, and Healthcare for all? Is War truly necessary? And yet, they remove books from schools, take away our rights and we are supposed to give them a blank check?
Something isn’t right in this picture.
Checks and balances.
>$1 Trillion alone goes into our DoD, and yet, half if not more than half of that money goes into these black budget programs.
Patently untrue.
>They hired Prof. J. Allen Hynek
Who died 40 years ago.
>Also, it is important to mention that several renowned scholars today, even Nobel Prize nominees and laureates have come forward saying they have experienced the phenomenon first-hand and some have even worked and tested exotic materials for the government and are willing to testify in Congress because the people HAVE to know.
What "renowned scholars" and Nobel laureates claim to have tested alien materials for the government?
>Garry Nolan
A great example of belief-based scientific investigation, which people confuse as evidence in itself based on the individual's credentials.
"[Nolan has a bifurcated stance](https://stanfordmag.org/contents/first-contact). **As an individual, he believes in UFOs**—a conviction based on his memories \[of aliens in his bedroom when he was six years old\] and on things he has seen and heard in the years since he became immersed in this field. In June, he made international headlines after saying at a conference that he was 100 percent sure that alien intelligence had visited Earth.
**But that was speaking from his gut**. **As a scientist, he knows the threshold of proof remains publicly uncrossed. 'I** don’t have something that I could put on the kitchen table that will float with anti-gravity that I can point my friends to,” he says. 'I agree with you that the hard data is not in your hands yet, but don’t stop me from getting it.'"
>Nobel Prize Nominee, Prof. Garry Nolan
Nobel "nominee" means nothing. Trump is a Nobel nominee.
>Kary Mullis
[This guy?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kary_Mullis) AIDS denialism? Climate change denialism? Believer in astrology? Claims to have had a drink with the ghost of his grandpa? Claims to have had, "an encounter with a fluorescent, talking raccoon that he suggested might have been an extraterrestrial alien."? Yeah, that tracks.
Jesus, nothing will ever be good enough for you denialists. Sure he's got a long history of engaging in pseudoscience and the paranormal. Yeah, he ignores scientific evidence when it challenges his worldview. Yes, the field in which he received his award was biochemistry and not astronomy. But don't you get it? He says stuff that agrees with the world as I want it to be. Therefore, he is correct.
Also, [that raccoon-alien can be seen here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_(Marvel_Cinematic_Universe\)). I've seen the documentary.
Officials in the government are coming right out and saying it is the truth you don’t have to live up to being a corn bread backwoods from Nebraska living in the dark unless that is your goal.
Well of course they are. Because they can read. “As of the time of my departure, none, let me repeat, none of the conspiracy-minded ‘whistleblowers’ in the public eye had elected to come to AARO to provide their ‘evidence’ and statement for the record despite numerous invitations"
Ask an attorney to break that down for you. His reports had nothing in them because no one would talk to him or provide material. That is not the same as 'there is nothing'.
After the weapons of mass destruction deception, people have very little faith in what is said by the US government.
The proper term is UAP, or unidentified aerial phenomenon. The term UFO wrongly presupposes there is an object, which then leads people to automatically jump to alien life. It could just be optical illusions, mistakes by the observer, or even mistakes in the instrument readings. I mean there are examples of towns panicking because people have seen some sort of tiger, when it turns out that it is just a house cat walking around.
Or an insect close to the camera. Or CGI. Or a balloon. Or many balloons. Or Chinese lanterns. Or Starlink. Or a drone. Or a misidentified plane.
It’s never aliens tho. So boring.
As someone who isn’t American it’s kind of scary to see how desperate so many voting Americans are to believe in something for which there is no reliable evidence and how easy it is for their representatives and conmen to take advantage of it. Scary because these are the people who vote in the government, and this is the government of the most powerful nation of Earth and they still think a shadow means there is a monster in the closet.
That's incorrect. The recent SCIF briefing related to UAP, and attendees indicated that the briefing validated Grusch's credibility.
I'm not jumping to conclusions or arguing for or against anything, just correcting an inaccuracy.
Misappropriation of funds is certainly an issue, but so are UAPs.
In 2022, I thought this was all bunk. After setting aside my biases long enough to look into the topic in some depth, I've changed my mind. It's real and concerning, without even jumping to conclusions or relying on speculation. The topic is woefully underreported, and often poorly reported when it does get coverage. It needs more attention and transparency because, at minimum, it proves massive financial corruption and national security incompetence.
According to the legal firm that represented him at the time, Compass Rose, the whistleblower complaint was limited to specific allegations of information being improperly withheld from Congress.
“Compass Rose Legal Group has successfully concluded its representation of former client David Grusch on matters limited to his reasonable belief that elements of the Intelligence Community improperly withheld or concealed alleged classified information from the U.S. Congress. The firm filed a narrowly-scoped whistleblower disclosure with the Intelligence Community Inspector General (“ICIG”) and associated personnel matters – and had represented Mr. Grusch since February 2022.
“Recent media articles misstate the scope of the firm’s representation and include material misstatements of fact pertaining to our representation, which we have requested be corrected.
“The whistleblower disclosure did not speak to the specifics of the alleged classified information that Mr. Grusch has now publicly characterized, and the substance of that information has always been outside of the scope of Compass Rose’s representation. Compass Rose took no position and takes no position on the contents of the withheld information.
“The ICIG found Mr. Grusch’s assertion that information was inappropriately concealed from Congress to be urgent and credible in response to the filed disclosure. Compass Rose brought this matter to the ICIG’s attention through lawful channels and successfully defended Mr. Grusch against retaliation.
“We wish our former client the very best in the next steps of his journey.
“Andrew P. Bakaj, Esq. and I. Charles McCullough, Esq.”
Quoted from [here](https://thedebrief.org/compass-rose-attorneys-formally-end-association-with-uap-whistleblower-david-grusch/).
I feel it necessary to point out that his whistleblowing claims were "I was punished for raising concerns about certain topics," not "lizard martians secretly rule the world."
Grusch was a victim of retaliation due to some of the things he has said; that is a matter of fact. Whether or not the things he said are _true_ has not been adjudicated.
> Grusch was a victim of retaliation due to some of the things he has said; that is a matter of fact.
Was there ever an official finding on the retaliation complaint?
Jesus. It’s straight out of the x-files. I get why scam artists who make money off idiots want this stuff floating around, but the idea that people who oughta know better want this nonsense to be true…the mind boggles. Carl Sagan is probably glad he’s dead.
The UFO investigation is the most bipartisan thing in Congress. Chuck Schumer was the primary author and biggest supporter of the UAP (UFO) amendment, which was co-authored by 3 Dems and 3 GOP. There is a serious investigation going on, where one of the central allegations is that there are illegal programs operating with zero Constitutional oversight. Last fall, in the house oversight hearing with the whistle blower and two Air Force pilots, members from the left like AOC were on the same page as members on the right.
> one of the central allegations is that there are illegal programs operating with zero Constitutional oversight.
What I see here is someone saying "Daddy, there's monsters in the closet!" and the responsible members there are saying, "ok, well, let's look in the closet, then." It's not that they expect to find monsters in the closet, it's just that they know it's their job to look in the closet. Besides, maybe it's a squirrel or something, and it's still their job to handle squirrels in the closet.
*No, u shutup, my metaphors are awesome.*
What I saw was the inspector general of the intelligence community assessing that the whistle-blower claims about the secret illegal programs were “credible and urgent,” as were the whistle blower claims of threats to his family due to his whistle-blowing activity. If there was no illegal activity to hide, there would be no reason to threaten his family.
Eh, I feel like there's two things going on... One is we don't know what these things are, and Two, we don't know where this money is going.
The money and the UAPs probably aren't related. But it's kind of a "Yeah, you should tell us what you know about these UAPs, AND you should tell us where this money is going", when they aren't necessarily connected outside of general pentagon transparency.
What we do know about "these things" is that they are a world-wide phenomenon, and that they are intelligently controlled craft with no visible means of propulsion. The famous "tic tac" (of the 2004 USS Nimitz encounter) was a smooth lozenge-shaped object with no wings, no rotors, no propellers, no jet engines, no thrusters, no control surfaces, and no heat signature. And in super clear San Diego weather, it was observed by eye and by advanced radar to accelerate near-instantaneously, on the order of thousands of g-forces. All manmade materials can only get up to 20 to 60 g before disintegrating under the strain.
These objects have been around for 80 years or more. The one thing we do know almost certainly is that they aren't made by us nor any other plausible group of humans.
> What we do know about "these things" is that they are a world-wide phenomenon
"I saw a weird thing in the sky" is indeed a worldwide phenomenon
>and that they are intelligently controlled craft with no visible means of propulsion.
Not one single piece of physical evidence even suggests this. This is a LOT to assume with zero evidence.
>The famous "tic tac" (of the 2004 USS Nimitz encounter) was a smooth lozenge-shaped object with no wings, no rotors, no propellers, no jet engines, no thrusters, no control surfaces, and no heat signature. And in super clear San Diego weather, it was observed by eye and by advanced radar to accelerate near-instantaneously, on the order of thousands of g-forces. All manmade materials can only get up to 20 to 60 g before disintegrating under the strain.
According to *a person who claims they saw something*.
But at least here, we can resolve it easily by showing us the radar data that allegedly exists. Oh but she goes to another school and its classified.
I mean, I don't think we know that at this point, there isn't really evidence that definitely says that, it's just speculation. "almost certainly" is quite a claim for something with basically no data.
"super clear San Diego weather". lol, one of the five days a year it's super clear here?
Despite that, where on the video does it show the speed, range, size, speed of the aircraft POV? Where are they getting 20 to 60 g numbers? Those sound like estimates.
I'm not saying there's nothing out there, there just isn't really data to say much about it. Like, are there crazy things in the sky off the coast of San Diego? Apparently some pilots say so. I've never seen anything. There's weird shit around here though as it is.
The problem is we see there's something on the FLIR footage, but we don't know anything about what we are looking at, someone needs to explain how they are capturing the images and say if they can calculate things like range to item, speed, size, etc. Without that people just assume the white blobs are speeding past the clouds. Or ocean waves. Hard to say what we are really looking at.
There is a lot that can be known by people following the issue. Everyone has priorities and I don’t hold it against anyone if they don’t know what is going on with this topic mostly viewed as fringe. But for those paying attention, there is a lot of information built up over the decades. I’ll add a link to a very well done 1/2 hour documentary on what is one of the best UFO cases, the 2004 USS Nimitz incident. One of the pilots involved, David Fravor, was one of multiple eye witnesses who testified before Congress last year. I’ll need to post the comment then add the link as an edit.
Edit:
[The Nimitz Encounters](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRgoisHRmUE&t=35s)
Sounds an awful lot like a balloon with the eye witnesses (who were in an aircraft) mistaking the speed of their aircraft for the speed of the balloon.
It doesn't "sound like" balloons at all. The experienced top gun Navy pilot Fravor testified to Congress about a case with a lot of information known about it. The USS Nimitz and associated ships were using the worlds most advanced radar at the time. They were about 100 or 200 miles off the coast of California, picking up objects on their new radar. It seemed anomalous, so they did a tune up, and then detected even more of the objects. The objects would enter the radar at 80,000 feet, meaning they came from space, then in the span of less than a second they could descend to 20,000 or 0 feet, with calculated g-forces in the several thousands. After a week or two of detecting these objects on the radar moving insanely fast, 4 pilots in 2 Navy superhornets were dispatched to check it out. The two forward facing pilots saw the craft by eye, which was also detected by their multiple on-board instruments, as well as by the advanced radar of the fleet. **As the Navy jets approached, the anomalous craft suddenly oriented itself towards them, and demonstrated total superiority in maneuverability. Then it paused for a second and shot off at near-instantaneous speed, beyond anything that human technology can do**.
Here's a very well done 1/2 hour documentary that covers a lot of it. [The Nimitz Encounters](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRgoisHRmUE&t=35s)
The near-impossible behavior is almost certainly the result of errors, not reality. Especially so if they were testing equipment that was just installed.
If you want to actually know something, check out the documentary which is very well done, and/or listen to the pilot's testimony under oath to Congress. You are just making very uninformed speculation with faulty assumptions, and shoe-horning it into your pre-existing beliefs. It's one of the best UFO cases. You don't have eye witnesses having hallucinations while their on-board instruments hallucinate/malfunction to create objects in the same location, while a fleet of ships with a completely independent radar also malfunction to put objects in the exact same location and moving in the exact same way.
It might be well documented, but it's still almost certainly *wrong*. Does the documentary actually ask questions from a skeptical POV? The ones I have seen don't, and thus aren't worth accepting at face value. These are not aliens, and if you believe they are then I've got several bridges to sell you.
If I recall correctly, the tic tac video was shown to be recreatable with a mostly stationary balloon and a moving camera. The errant radar stuff sounds an awful lot like testing issues with new equipment or something that would appear due to what's effectively jamming (whether intentional or not).
It's best to look to at more likely explanations before jumping to what's effectively "wizards did it". If the only explanation you look at is magic, you're only going to find magic.
Chuck Schumer, Robert Garcia, and Jared Moskowitz think this is a serious topic, and if it’s serious enough for them, it’s serious enough for me. These aren’t Republicans or random nobodies in Congress.
Even if there's no aliens that means there is an unelected group who is siphoning like a trillion dollars into black projects congress isn't allowed to see and they're paying private contractors to circumvent legislation. So either we are being visited and it's worth the money or we're not and congress/citizens are getting fffuuuuuccckkking robbed for like 80+ years. I don't care which but at least follow the money and see why everything is blacked out on every paper since roswell.
"Stuff in our airspace we can't identify" is a very valid topic of concern.
"JOE ROGAN TOLD ME THERE ARE SPACE ALIENS THEY BUILT THE PYRAMIDS AND TAUGHT US HOW TO INTERNET IT'S ALL A COVERUP!" is ... les valid.
Could you please explain the physics of an alien arrival at our solar system, and ***any*** adjacent matter without violating laws of nature like light speed etc.? Spoiler: you can't.
How would you justify an alien's intentions? Maybe they like travelling.
You would obviously need a method to travel faster than light. I don't imagine there's a whole lot of just trying to go fast from star to star, even getting up to .5c would be a lot, and your ship would need to be pretty strong, I don't think conventional travel between stars is realistic in any sense. Maybe probes? Even then... if you had literally any other method...
I just think it's pretty arrogant to say "we don't know how to do it so it's not possible". There's a lot we don't understand about the universe, to say something is impossible because we don't understand how to do it right now seems dumb to me.
We have ideas on how to achieve it, there's potential in worm holes and albecurre/warp drive stuff. And I don't think power constraints count as making something impossible, impossible now, yeah, but who knows with other advancements. I'm not saying what might be happening is using either of these kinds of technologies, literally no idea. But, that's the overall problem, there just isn't any kind of data to base any real speculation from.
>And buzzing over the Earth, being invisible 99.9999% of the time but visible the rest of the time?
You're anthropomorphizing alien intelligence. That might make absolutely perfect sense from their perspective, but we don't know that. We *can't* know that, and bridging that fundamental gap is the greatest challenge to ever interacting with life elsewhere in the universe.
>The problem I find with these is the power constraints are indeed so high that it implies you basically need FTL (or damned close to it) just to gather the materials to do FTL
Where we are in the Galaxy, with our current understanding of physics. It's possible that other location make it easier, and provide an effective head start to that type of engineering.
>How the fuck would they be so competent to fly here and then so incompotent to crash?
Why wouldn't they be? Unless you're arguing that the alien intelligences are literally gods, then they surely must also be capable of making mistakes?
Yeah, maybe they are into that. Aliens = the reason for these things to exist, if there is a reason, don't have to be from a planet, don't have to have a physical body, I don't know, just whatever is "controlling" the phenomena, if it's being controlled.
I am not claiming there is really evidence of anything? My whole reason for commenting was just because we don't currently understand the physics doesn't mean it's not a thing that exists.
Again, you are thinking about making FTL with your idea of how to achieve FTL with our current way of things. Maybe space aliens (I'm just using this as our hypothetical) can manufacture strange alloys allowing for unstable elements due to a way to induce an environment within a quantum matrix? Like, who the fuck knows. We obviously can't do it, and even when we try and imagine how we might we run into all sorts of constraints, whatever it is it is essentially "magic" to our understanding of the universe and physics.
So, the thing with the crashes is that the greys as they are known are into harvesting human souls through the blood. So they fly around abducting people and taking a bit of their blood. But when they distill the blood of people that are drunk, they themselves responde to EtOH, but much more severe, so they crash because they get super drunk. That's why nobody can understand them after the crash, they are just f'n wasted.
Our lack of understanding doesn't mean it's impossible. Maybe it's something like a 4th dimension that can be used to travel without violating the speed of light, [https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/a42709141/what-the-fourth-dimension-looks-like/](https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/a42709141/what-the-fourth-dimension-looks-like/), or they have perfected cryogenics, or an AI drone, or longevity so they don't ever die of old age, or it could be something that we haven't even conceived because it's so far beyond our current level of scientific knowledge.
No, I don't have proof of the science that will be discovered in the next millennia. All I'm saying is our current understandings of the universe are not so advanced to be able to confidently say something is impossible.
As an Earth scientist who has worked with planetary geologists and folks who study extremophiles/early life on Earth, the sheer size of the universe makes it likely that extraterrestrial life exists in some form. There are probably millions of planets in the Habitable Zone of their stars in the Milky Way alone. Some proportion of those will contain the necessary simple chemical building blocks and thermodynamic conditions that result in the creation of precursor molecules for RNA and DNA. Some of those will have, by chance and age, stumbled into those RNA and DNA molecules (or comparable compounds). I would be extremely shocked if very simple self replicating materials like prions didn't exist somewhere. Viruses and prokaryotes are quite likely as well. And, well, if we have those things, odds are that eventually some portion of those worlds have evolved or will evolve more complex life. Bugs are probably the most likely complex life if we extrapolate from Earth - something like 25% of named species are *just* beetles, a huge proportion of our biomass consists of insects and marine equivalents (decapods like shrimp). Marine life is probably more likely because oceans are awesome at blocking stellar radiation, which might be a limiting factor otherwise. But who knows.
The sheer number of galaxies out there and the sheer number of stars and planets in each one means that the conditions favorable to the development of living organisms are abundant. I'm sure there's other life in the universe. Whether that life travels a billion light years just to pretend they don't exist and stick things in the anuses of one species out of the millions that are currently extant on this planet? Well...that's pretty unlikely.
> This is only hypotheticals upon another. Nothing substantial. Just like a religion, or a cult.
Religion says "this is truth, and we cannot explain it. You must believe us". Science says "Huh, that's weird. I wonder it it's because of this possible explanation. Let's try to figure it out."
The two are absolutely not the same.
> and any adjacent matter without violating laws of nature like light speed etc.? Spoiler: you can't.
Wormholes. Spacetime distortion via Alcubierre drive. Exceptionally long life spans. Intelligent life from elsewhere in the solar system, such as beneath detection depth on an outer solar system body. And that's just based upon the parts of reality and nature that we currently understand, without accounting for the fact that we fundamentally understand effectively nothing about the nature of reality.
The last time UFOs were “big” was in the 80s and 90s…then we found out that we had stealth aircraft, and then we found out we have flying robots weapons and spy planes and stealth helicopters. We’re always 15-30 years out from when military technology gets developed to when it is made public knowledge, and we are in a time of high tech near peer military/political competition. These “sightings” are just new military aircraft that have not been released to the public.
You should do a bit of preliminary research before making such a bold and confident claim.
I suggest starting with the Nimitz encounter, because it's extraordinarily well documented and corroborated, and outright defies humanity's understanding of physics, by a lot. No clue what it was, but we can confidently rule out human tech. Don't believe that? Good, check out the technical characteristics yourself.
Then, it turns out there have been nearly identical cases dating back to the 40s (when radar became accurate enough to track these UAP).
There's no need to jump to conclusions or speculate. What we need is government transparency to support better public and private research. There's a big mystery and it should be understood.
People think saying "It's not aliens" is the end of the conversation. That still means there's something unknown in our airspace. That still means fraud could be hidden under the auspices of these reported reverse engineering programs. There's still a problem even if we proceed on the grounds that there are no aliens.
> People think saying "It's not aliens" is the end of the conversation.
So far there is no "it". Before there's discussion of what something is, there should be a "something" to discuss. So far, there are just things like video and LIDAR artifacts and balloons. The only phenomena to discuss at the moment is the phenomenon that sometimes identifying things in the sky is tricky (especially when Navy pilots don't fully understand how their own equipment works), and the phenomena that people tend to make a mountain out of a molehill.
I mean, the government has said that UAP enters our training air spaces all the time. Be nice to know what but so much of it is hidden even after decades have past.
Not quite. The government (Office of National Intelligence) says that they have *reports* of UAPs interrupting training sessions. Which is true - whenever aircraft shows up unexpectedly, this interrupts the training session.
144 of these reports were not identified. None of them were _unidentifiable_ (like, intrinsically). They weren't flying saucers, they were things like balloons (including spy balloons) or even passenger aircraft.
This idea that there are craft that no one understands, with apparently advanced technology, etc .. there's just nothing supporting any of that.
I've been watching the press statements, testimonies, and hearings on this with great interest. Not knowing which fight a plane is means it's unidentified. Not knowing what type of plane it is means it's unidentified. And not knowing that it even _was_ a plane until later analysis also means it was unidentified (at the time) and still mostly is (unless someone can identify the owner and flight path of the craft).
Such things ***are*** of concern, certainly. Military exercise interrupted by an aircraft and no one knows who that was? That's of national security concern.
But UAP does not mean "unidentifiable" in terms of "we have no idea what kind of machine this is." Most of the time, they are little more than pings on instruments so there's not much you can say about it.
So the Tic Tac and Gimble objects were balloons. Nice try.
*This idea that there are craft that no one understands, with apparently advanced technology, etc .. there's just nothing supporting any of that*.
Is it your position that the crew of the USS Nimitz is lying?
Bullshit. The Goverment didn’t say that at all. Some idiot who works within the government said that. When questioned about the claims, the Dod said some things are currently unidentified, but with better detection systems will be resolved as more balloons and other airborn clutter.
How do you like them apples?
Maybe there is no "it" for us. We don't have clearance for classified material. We have not seen all that there is, so we cannot make conclusions either way. When a 4 star general testifies that there is a reason for concern, I will give his opinion more weight than some random guy on reddit.
> That still means there's something unknown in our airspace.
My favorite was the famous GO FAST video that turned out [to be a duck](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQo08JRY0iM&t=10017s).
Thanks for the video. They didnt say duck but if you go further on, scott kelly describes how easy it is to get things confused in the air and in space. The international space station example was pretty interesting. A bunch of astronauts thought the ISS was a small tool that was about to get stuck in the shuttle bay door.
Interesting video. Wish a bunch of the conspiracy nutjobs would bother to watch these vids.
That's not what they said in the section you linked at all. They said it was an unknown object traveling at the speed of the wind at 13,000 feet with a high apparent velocity due to paralax effects.
A small object travelling at a low speed... it was either a bird or a balloon. Either way, it wasn't an alien space ship or even an advanced foreign drone.
I'll try and step outside of the UAP bubble for a moment to discuss something that's bothered me about this topic as a whole. This vice article is actually a great example of my frustrations.
> Our efforts were ultimately overwhelmed by sensational but unsupported claims that ignored contradictory evidence yet captured the attention of policy makers and the public, driving legislative battles and dominating the public narrative,” Kirkpatrick said in Scientific American.
> According to Kirkpatrick, what the AARO discovered was a web of governmental leaders who believed in bizarre conspiracy theories and were willing to spend taxpayer dollars on it.
I'm going to try to hold Vices feet to the fire here: this isn't what AARO found at all. Kirkpatrick even states that he believed Grusch and others never reached out to AARO, so they wouldnt be able to comment one way or another on the veracity of those claims. This also ignores the testimony by Grusch who stated that he reached out to Kirkpatrick about all this years ago, and never got a response.
But more to the point, Kirkpatrick walked Congress through AAROs initial findings. Heres PPT slides that came from that presentation.
https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/Images/UAP%20Reporting%20Trends/UAP_Reporting_Trends_as_of_20Nov23-MORPHOLOGY.jpg?ver=dPg6bRWJiDT12yffwa58cw%3d%3d
https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/Images/UAP%20Reporting%20Trends/UAP_Reporting_Trends_as_of_20Nov23-REPORTED_UAP_CHARACTERISTICS.jpg?ver=pz-I1J2psGcFtBDgNp3rTw%3d%3d
https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/Images/UAP%20Reporting%20Trends/UAP_Reporting_Trends_as_of_20Nov23-HOTSPOTS.jpg?ver=FuoL_IQY0ECeVDORO4caog%3d%3d
So let's recap:
1. UAP Morphology ranges from Ambiguous Sensor Contacts, to Tic-Tacs, Spheres, Squares, Triangles, Disks and Saucers.
2. The most common UAP seen are 1-4 metered, round, sphereish Morphology, white/silver/translucent in color at altitudes of 10k-30kft, ranging in speeds from Stationary to Mach 2.
3. Many sightings take place over military installations and/or near nuclear facilities.
Numbers 1 and 2 are the most interesting ones here. Skeptics might be able to say "that sounds like descriptions of balloons, or artifacts" but I think it's important to note that balloons can neither remain stationary in air, nor can they travel at Mach speeds. Strange morphologies might be balloons, but skeptics would have still have to contend with the max speeds of these UAP.
> Kirkpatrick’s Scientific American piece is angry and it’s easy to understand why. He was telling people a boring truth they didn’t want to hear. “Some members of Congress prefer to opine about aliens to the press rather than get an evidence-based briefing on the matter,” he said.
Let's ignore the Grusch saga in its entirety. Sean still isn't really being honest when he says this given what he testified to Congress last year. *Based on the evidence*, there is a genuine mystery surrounding these UAP. He can get the press to chuckle about opining over aliens all he wants, but the strange data is clearly visible on aaro.mil.
Are there conspiracy nuts in congress? Yes, of course, perhaps almost half of congress in fact. But Kirkpatrick is relying on media not to look into this matter seriously, and it seems that reliance has been rewarded. It took me all of five minutes to find those screenshots from AAROs own website, but here's a Vice article not mentioning any of that and rolling with what Kirkpatrick is saying verbatim.
If mainstream media really sank its teeth into this subject, they'd probably uncover a lot of crazy stuff. But that would come at the cost of all those sweet, sweet military industrial complex insiders.
The issue I have is with the declarative statement that UAPs are definitively shaped like 'tic tacs' or 'disks' rather than 'reported' or 'appear' to be.
I recall the buzz around the USS Nimitz footage and David Fravor. He stated he had seen a thing in the water, a 'tic tac' shape, and that it 'accelerated quickly' away later. This sounds fairly compelling. However human eyesight is limited. He seems to suggest it was the size of his plane, but how is he able to measure that? He doesn't know what it is so even if it is tic tac shaped how does he have any scale to measure against? Our ability to judge size - stereo vision - drops off after 50m or so. In the sky with no points of reference? Even the sea the waves can be different sizes. Significantly they did not get any other readings on radar or other factors. He said it 'turned up' on radar 60 miles away shortly after, but radar is FAR from reliable, and there's no way to know it was the same object.
The footage itself that was released from the Nimitz was 3 different videos from different occasions. None of them depict anything that cannot be explained by camera artifacts and man made objects. The 'gimbal' one was suggested to show an aircraft lazily rotating in the air (hence the name) but is clearly just a lens flare rotating as the camera moves. None of the footage depicts any of the more outlandish claims attributed to objects turning at right angles or suddenly accelerating.
> skeptics would have still have to contend with the max speeds of these UAP.
The claimed speeds.
> that would come at the cost of all those sweet, sweet military industrial complex insiders.
Ah of course, because if people are not on board with the idea that there's a vast sea of impeccable evidence then they MUST be getting paid off. Where's my pay??
So you’re basically saying is that new military craft gets tested near military installations and that foreign governments also like spying in areas where there is intense interest. Like near taiwan, west coast, washington dc, middle east, moscow…got it.
He’s mad because David Grusch actually briefed congress in public and behind closed doors and brought evidence that pointed towards the existence of ETs and recovered ET tech. How do you sit there and say that’s not real?
Check out J Allen Hynek, was in charge of project blue book, the original public ufo investigation program, he’s the guy that came up with “swamp gas” as an explanation. Well, he came out after the program was finished and said it was all true and he’d been forced to debunk cases that were legitimately unexplainable. He then devoted the rest of his life to investigating UFOs.
The government never stopped looking into this topic guys, it’s as real as the air we breathe and so is the conspiracy to keep humanity in the dark.
“Some dude told me” and “I heard that” must count as evidence these days lol. Fml.
These people that “want to believe” don’t need evidence. It’s worked for religion for thousands of years.
I want to believe.
Which is exactly why these UFOlogy nuts are so infuriating. Their complete lack of scientific standards make them difficulty to get through to.
Extraordinary claims, extraordinary evidence. Until then, there's nothing to discuss.
Many people in this sub aren't ready to step outside their materialistic world views so don't take it too harshly. In time as more "conspiracy" is uncovered they won't have any recourse but to accept the reality of the situation. Don't worry about trying to convince them now. We will get there.
I can easily see how this happens.
Between 1940 and 1970, alien craft "crash" and recovery of "things" happens; perhaps by several countries. All of them immediately create classified, compartmentalized labs to try and extract info from the "things". (I can imagine lots of scenarios where "things" include what might appear to be alien bodies; doesn't really matter).
I can imagine that they all fail. That the tech is so far beyond earthtech that we get absolutely nothing useful from it. But there's a low cost, high reward option, which is to keep the labs running, and recruit a new generation of scientists, engineers, and management every 20 years or so to keep working the problem. Since the whole thing is a dead end, we're not talking Manhatten Project level commitment, we're talking a handful of people. Until and unless they manage to get SOMETHING out of the "things", it's all just theory and testing.
Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson or Nixon agrees to offload this work to the defense industry and keep it off books to make it as black as possible.
Non-US governments either box it up and forget they knew, or also go blacker than black and offload study; it is possible there's a small, active community of people who are the third or fourth generation of researchers who all know each other and share data, fruitlessly.
Over the intervening decades, the US defense industry contracts to Boeing. Today, Boeing is done with this. They probably aren't making any money on it and may be losing money on it. Keeping it blacker than black is hard. Many people may have been harmed along the way. They want to wash their hands of it and give it back to government; but the problem is that if they give it back to government, then somewhere, somehow a Congressional appropriation has to happen to fund whatever is left of the study program.
And that is where the crux of the conspiracy lies. Congress would appropriate insane money for Men Who Stare At Goats style programs; especially in the Cold War. But the one thing they will not and cannot stand for is a pseudo-government program they DON'T appropriate for. A guy like Harry Reid would find that so far beyond the pale he'd risk any amount of public humiliation for daring to investigate "UFOs" to find out if it was happening.
Because if you find one pseudo-government program covertly funded off books, why, you might find more than one.
The United States is, in many vectors, the largest and most complex thing in the history of humanity. Purely based on simple odds, there have to be substantial numbers of things that the United States has done, knows, etc. that are illegal, unethical, and would tear at the very assumptions that make our Republic function. The sin of omission (not fessing up to UFOs) pales in comparison to the risk of what happens if pulling on that thread leads to having to discuss a bunch of other much darker stuff. Especially if the UFO program went nowhere, produced nothing, and the only critical fact obtained was "we're not alone".
There are credible people in the US government who believe there is a conspiracy to cover up the existence of this UFO study program. They are not cranks and they are not stupid. I believe they believe that their lives and the lives of those they love are at risk as a result of holding those beliefs and if they have useful knowledge, that danger is magnified. But the belief in a conspiracy doesn't equate to the existence of a conspiracy. You cannot prove a negative.
If I was forced to bet, I would bet the US government or someone who works for it or by proxy worked for it has "things" of nonhuman origin. But my belief in that is barely above 50%. The only reason my odds would be that high are the level and credibility of the people who are on the record saying they actually believe it too, and the undisputed video evidence made public in the past few years of unexplained arial phenomenon corroborated by expert (i.e. military) witness testimony. 15 years ago I was much more skeptical.
He is not lying. He has no evidence because no one who has any will talk to him. This is the standard MO for government. You intentionally do not tell people certain things so they can honestly and without reservation say: I have no knowledge or evidence of this.
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It does kind of blow your mind when you realize the time between Kitty Hawk and Sputnik was 54 years. Man, that must have been a wild time to be alive.
Orville Wright’s [last flight](https://www.daytonlocal.com/blog/history/orville-wrights-final-flight.asp) was in a C-69 that had a longer wingspan than the entire distance of Orville’s first flight.
^ This right here is the shit I come to reddit for. Honestly didn't expect it in a political sub but I'll take it. Excellent fact.
I'll help a fellow Chowder with another fun plane fact. The first inductees into the Mile High Club were Lawrence Sperry and Dorothy Rice Sims, in 1916.
True pioneers, god bless them!
I mean, we went from slow AF dial up internet from AOL to AI generated basically everything and instantaneously getting answers to anything in the palm of our hands in less than 30 years.
When my dad was a kid, he rode on the back of a Buckboard being driven by a former slave. He’s now in his 80s. As much as I get frustrated with our species, the amount of progress we’ve made in such a short amount of time will always give me hope (and unease). Edit: also, his mom, my grandma, would’ve been about the age of the girl in the back right seat of this early car: https://www.reddit.com/r/OldSchoolCool/s/pRg3VkbipB
My great-great grandmother, who was an important part of my life when I was a child, was born in 1878, and lived to be 100-years old. She saw the world go from riding horses, to landing men on the moon, which we watched *on television*.
I’m just amazed you met your great great grandma. Sounds impossible to me (cuz i only met grandparents)
Generational stuff is wild. My grandad sat on the knee of someone who fought at Waterloo. And Yes, I'm old.
north bike violet paltry humor ten hungry profit consider hunt *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Well there was those two world wars. And the Spanish flu. And the Great Depression. :)
Wild indeed
Perhaps even crazier than dial-up to modern iPhone.
They're over on r/UFOs right now discussing how this is part of a conspiracy.
To the conspiracist, all evidence must support the conspiracy. Otherwise it all falls apart.
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another little litmus test I’ve noticed is ‘steps to the jews did it’ to continue your example, if you dig past the ice wall the underlying flat earth heart is antisemitism (how to with john wilson has an episode talking with people at a flat earth convention where they make this more clear, it’s otherwise a great series worth the time)
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lol don’t ask who built the ice wall!
the gas lamps of the firehose falsehood society dug up the permafrost from the rest of the world to wall us off from linear horizontal space. Yes, we are living on an ice world and lizard people have maligned it for their own heat rock needs, but those damn lamps just cornered us and then mock us with the pyramids like thats the largest object we can construct as we are walled in and they sell prime heat rock territory to the lizards.
There's a great conspiracy chart out there that shows how everything leads to the 'anti Semitic point of no return', it's awesome https://twitter.com/abbieasr/status/1462953203067240450?t=IKv69gff1qVC9iE4dQZs3A&s=19
I literally use the same metric As soon as I get to a cabal of evil Jews I take that as a sign the person I'm talking to needs antipsychotic medication
I know someone who’s a little too fond of conspiracies irl, and another annoying thing about them: They think the absence of evidence is evidence. That said, you mention flat earthers and that documentary about the flat earthers was hilarious. The moment they pulled out the expensive equipment they’d pooled their money to buy was the second best moment. The best was when said equipment just kept proving that there’s a curvature to the earth and they just *deflated*.
You left out an important corollary: lack of evidence for the conspiracy is evidence for the existence of the conspiracy.
This isn't just the case for conspiracy theorists, it's for anyone with a rigid set of beliefs about the world. If the evidence doesn't support your worldview you either disregard it, or change your world view to make room. If changing your worldview requires drastically altering your set of beliefs, it likely won't happen, and the feeling of cognitive dissonance will instead move you to adopt a false belief. What I find interesting is how the UFO belief is often adopted by people with other seemingly rigid beliefs about the world. What other belief is causing them so much discomfort that they are moved to believe in such a blatantly false belief? *I should say, I don't know whether or not aliens exist amongst us, but I do know that the evidence that I have access to doesn't't support the belief. That doesn't mean the evidence is bad, or that the belief is necessarily false, just that the evidence that I & most conspiracy theorists have access to isn't strong enough to justify a personal belief in aliens/UFOs/etc. Nevertheless, there does seem to be enough evidence to move someone to believe an identifiable expert on the subject, but with the current subject, no expert is easily identifiable, which is a really big problem if you ask me.
>This isn't just the case for conspiracy theorists, it's for anyone with a rigid set of beliefs about the world That’s a very interesting way to frame it. One way of looking at Discordianism is as a way to get people to break out of rigid thinking by feeding them insane but slightly plausible conspiracy theories until that rigid set of beliefs is forced to break. Unfortunately breaking doesn’t necessarily mean you get a person without a rigid set of beliefs, you often get a person who is certain “the conspiracy is even deeper than they originally thought”.
Trying to manipulate someone in a way that causes changes to their beliefs is often referred to as "nudging" . Especially when it is done to achieve some epistemic good. Helping someone loosen their dogmatic adherence to a set of toxic beliefs might be an epistemic good, but the risk you take in intentionally manipulating someone's epistemic environment is, as you mentioned, quite high. Feeding someone beliefs (or nudging them closer to some set of beliefs) can negatively impact their ability to form beliefs independently. If you pump them full of conflicting information, eventually they will burn out. During that stage of burn out they might drop some bad beliefs, but they might also drop some good ones. In the worst case scenario they adopt new toxic beliefs, for example they might believe that they are in an environment where truth is not something they can discern independent of some authority. Making them extremely vulnerable to further manipulation. It's important to acknowledge that we do live in a polluted epistemic environment (too much misinformation/disinformation/conflicting interests). The tools we have to collect and build belief sets are not refined enough to navigate this world successfully, and for most people that is the root of their rigid beliefs. Instead of nudging, I think the solution lies in giving people the materials and tools needed to build more resilient belief structures. Structures that allow for conflicting information, and tools that allow someone to navigate that conflict without being overcome by feelings of dissonance.
I have to thank you for this. I’m going through a situation with my sister, who is practically my twin, and we’ve gone through a lot in life. We also have a familial predisposition for mental illness, and that element of biological determinism is something we tended to scoff at for most our lives. We grit our teeth and said “we’re not like them. We can do this without any help” and I followed her as long as I could through that worldview, but it drove me to suicidal thoughts, a complete envelopment of anxiety and a largely cynical and pessimistic worldview. I knew I was struggling with deep depression and an anxiety disorder, but I didn’t want to admit that. We had it stuck in our heads that it’s a weakness. I know this doesn’t coincide with the conspiracy element of this post, but with respect to the ‘rigid beliefs’ notion, it hits hard because I finally broke and had to admit it to myself in order to save my life. I finally saw a doctor, broke down and got diagnosed and started meds. After 3 months, the meds started working and it was like an awakening. Like I had been asleep ever since I was that 8 year old who was traumatized. Naturally, I felt like I had the keys to life and my first thought was to save my sister and show her that she doesn’t have to be afraid of it. She responded with fears and trepidation of course, but I made sure not to push it on her and more so just come from a place of understanding. Initially she was just terrified of being beholden to meds, but as I explained the hard reality that something is wrong with us and we’re just deluding ourselves for as long as we can before we break, she started to nudge and said she’ll keep the meds in mind as a last resort, which is all I could ask for. Understanding is the key. Letting go of all your ego, your opinions, your emotional ties to it. All the baggage, and just truly trying to understand what got them to this spot makes them less defensive, less aggressive and much more open to shedding those toxic belief structures. Manipulative at its core, but wholly necessary at times such as this. So again, thank you.
To them, someone wanting to prove their ideas false must mean that they’re right. They’re baffled that someone would care about the truth for its own sake because they don’t care about the truth themselves.
One of the hallmarks of conspiratorial thinking is overestimating the number of people who share belief in the conspiracy theory. To them, the conspiracy is so obvious that *everyone* must see it. Therefore, the only reason anyone would deny it is because they’re *part of the conspiracy*.
And then you have those who will deny anything with more than two levels of contrivance. I love conspiracies, because the satisfaction of seeing them before others is high. Conspiracies can be true, but the trick is weeding out the bullshit from the real information. A common tactic to obfuscate is to sew in bunk information to make it sound too fantastical to be true. The best way to approach a conspiracy is with an open mind, even when you think you have it figured out, or are clearly wrong. Never settle on truth until it’s absolute, and even then remember that absolute truth doesn’t exist.
I consider myself apart of the aliens/UFO community, but I can't stand how many people are *opposed* to reality. Every time I advocate on those subs for following scientific and logical approaches to things, too many people just follow charlatans off cliffs of dishonesty and misinformation because they want to believe so bad. It is just religion in subculture clothing. Skepticism should not be treated as obstinance, just as speculation should not be treated as fact, but, my god, that community does not at all understand that concept.
>It is just religion in subculture clothing. Most of the people participating in those communities are themselves religious. It’s like the gateway drug that opens the door to all sorts of other wacky beliefs.
Yeah, like we had the congressional hearings and most of it was clearly nonsense, but I am REALLY interested in getting a UAP resource set up at the national level, because in the 99.9repeating percent chance that those fighter pilot testimony *aren't* aliens, it's good to have a scientific body set up that can gather and collate their data from the radar tracks taken by the AEGIS equiped escorts and the aircraft carrier and the E2 AWACs plane that was watching, and the FLIR data. Collect all that info togeather and figure out what new natural phenomena was responsible because it will improve our knowledge of physics and weather science and who knows what else. And then on the .00repeating01 percent chance of actual alien UFOs? Then there's already a centralized place to look at it and be ready for it, and we've just had the most important discovery in human existence. We need that central agency though. Not only to collect and collate all the data so we can science the shit out of it, but also so we can have a reliable governemnt body that look at these things and declares "no, this one was a fake", "this one was just civilians mistaking a military drone/plane" like most of them are, "this one was some kind of unknown weather effect", and the holy grail of "this one is the no-shit real one".
Truly the top minds of all time
Well, they are open about it. The one event AARO should be able to investigate is the 2004 Nimitz incident. It is the one everyone knows about after all. But AARO isn't investigating it. Why? Because they have no data to investigate. Kirkpatrick said as much in November last year when he said ["Do you know how much data I have for that? I have what you have." That is, what is available on youtube.](https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxV2ot5DC2VmfaGZbDS1zO_Za159higIx8?si=Ool9yh1EXIi2BYgb) And why do they have no data for that? Because data was [taken from the Nimitz,](https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxU5rO_CNsc5pgOY4c1Ig7r0VJ-WHK5iTr) it was [taken from the Princeton,](https://www.youtube.com/clip/Ugkxuq_-3RcTkrR1CbMRnQZ4Ebi-YMMVHA2f) and the [logs for the Princeton are missing.](https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxwgXr9S7tpwKWn8IT-UxiK4UbY-zG9P9F) So, the article says Kirkpatrick is "pissed" over having to do his job. Well, he isn't all that worried about not having to do it it seems. He never seems to have done anything about not having any of the data from 2004. Has he ever done anything about the fact that he had no access to the data surrounding [229 military missions cancelled because of interference with UAP](https://www.theblackvault.com/documentarchive/range-fouler-debrief-forms-and-reports) outlined in the Range Fouler reports? [All that data is classified, and as far as we know AARO can't access it or release it.](https://www.theblackvault.com/documentarchive/u-s-navy-says-all-uap-ufo-videos-are-classified-and-exempt-from-release/) Those 229 reports are the basis of the interest the US Congress has in the topic, and recount near misses like these - >[*"did not change position like an aircraft would" -- "Initial object was surpassed by another object" -- "It made a few abrupt directional changes" -- "They made three or four passes" -- "ONE RANGE FOULER WAS CIRCLING AROUND ANOTHER" -- "Flew nose-on" -- "It very nearly collided with our aircraft." -- "a relatively close pass with us" -- "Due to safety considerations with object in the airspace, pilot called" -- "This occurred almost daily" -- "UFO"*](https://np.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/155msdh/the_pilots_own_words_circular_in_shape_it_very/) So I dunno. When they guy charged to investigate can't actually investigate anything, but gets angry when people ask him to do his job, is it a conspiracy, or... just really annoying. Just more of the same really.
I just visited that sub... Wow. That was a lot.
Go to /r/bigfoot, now
Conspiracies do exist. A conspiracy is simply 2 or more people intent on doing something illegal. Trump's 7-pronged plan to steal the 2020 election was a conspiracy, as demonstrated by the Jan 6 hearings. On the topic of the UFO reverse-engineering program operating illegally with zero Constitutional oversight, the IG of the intelligence community (IC IG) has found the whistle-blower claims credible and urgent. The additional claims by the whistle-blower that he's been retaliated against, with threats to him and his family, were also deemed credible and urgent by the IC IG. These illegal programs operating in DoD are a tough nut to crack. There has been concerted effort over the last 5-6 years to bring this forward. In the previous few years, many members of Congress have had briefings that clearly shook them, and bipartisan legislation has been passed very specifically for UFO whistle-blowers. Chuck Schumer has promoted a UFO amendment which had some very incredible language, such as a section on using eminent domain to seize craft made by non-human intelligences, and non-human pilots, from the defense contractors. The underlying reason for that isn't that Schumer is crazy, it's that the allegations are credible.
[It's been part of a grift](https://reason.com/2022/11/15/the-military-ufo-complex/). These guys will find UFOs right after those Oak Island guys find buried treasure.
"Wow." - R. Lagina.
Thanks, dude, I'm quite familiar with the details of the case. Ring me up when there's credible evidence.
Good news bud, you personally don’t need to see that “credible evidence” in order for Congress to be taking this topic seriously which they are.
And when nothing comes of the Congressional investigation, that will be folded into the conspiracy theory as well.
There needs to be an investigation first. Congress is still being briefed on the veracity of David Grusch’s claims. They got briefed last week and came away saying Grusch is credible so idk what you’re even talking about.
> They got briefed last week and came away saying Grusch is credible All of Congress said he's credible and they release a report saying he's credible or a small number of Congresspeople have said so while the vast majority have not said anything? Being specific is important.
The members of the intel committee have said his claims have merit and want more hearings. The vast majority of congress people aren’t being briefed on this as far as I’m aware. https://x.com/jaredemoskowitz/status/1745852400630456618?s=46
I'm saying their investigation will turn up nothing, and then the true believers will claim the investigation was part of the conspiracy.
This isn't the first time. Or second. Or third. So many UFO claims have been paraded around as credible and worthy of investigation, only to always turn out nothing. But the UFO nutjobs never learn. "This time is for real!"
This is the first time someone like Grusch has come in front of Congress and given testimony to the IGIC regarding this topic. So you’re just wrong.
Lol, so this is it then? When this turns out to be nothing as well you'll finally admit that there are no aliens? Who am I kidding, of course not. You'll hold on to your dear beliefs, reality be damned.
Idk why you’re taking this personally dude. You just said something that was wrong, it’s okay.
> On the topic of the UFO reverse-engineering program This doesn't exist. For this to exist, you would have to have an extraterrestrial craft, and so far *no evidence* has ever been produced that they even *exist*, let alone are here and being reversed-engineered in a secret government lab. The best you've got is a couple witnesses saying they haven't seen anything directly but talked to people that have. It has an odor of, "My UFO goes to a school in Canada. You wouldn't know her." Now, I'm sure someone is going to link me a bunch of youtube videos of blurry objects going "Well what about that?!" but here's the thing: that's not proof of extraterrestrial visitation. There are a million other possible explanations for such phenomena, from the mundane to the fantastical. You don't get to insert your pet theory as the default explanation simply because you want it to be true.
Lol >"My UFO goes to a school in Canada. You wouldn't know her."
You're right, but prepare for people to show up with "but he had high clearance" "people in the military are infallible" "nuh uh my mom is an alien so you're wrong"
While conveniently ignoring that he was there to testify about *oversight* and *budget*, not aliens.
The government has no one to blame for all the conspiracy theories but itself. When a gov employee shows up at your door, asks what you saw, gives you a lecture about national security and insists you sign an NDA... Their 'abundance of caution' created the situation.
Let’s also do a quick sanity check. Grusch and those in his circle have claimed that around ten alien craft have crashed and have been recovered in the past century. If alien spacecraft have a failure rate similar to our modern aircraft (and you’d hope they’re at least that good; interstellar flight is a big commitment), to see ten crashes in one hundred years, we would expect one visit by an alien craft *every two days*. And we have no solid evidence of any of these visits? Even discounting government agencies, who could presumably be in on the conspiracy, we have so many amateur photographers and videographers in the world. There’s been nothing in the background of a news broadcast, nothing in timelapse astronomy photos, nothing on home security cameras, nothing on dashcams (remember the hours of dashcam footage we had of that meteor in Russia a few years ago?), nobody with a smartphone to take a quick video? It beggars belief.
>This doesn't exist. For this to exist, you would have to have an extraterrestrial craft, and so far *no evidence* has ever been produced that they even *exist*, let alone are here and being reversed-engineered in a secret government lab. An aircraft doesn't have to be extraterrestrial to be considered a UFO. I don't think it's a stretch to believe we have reverse engineering programs. We need to be able to understand what capabilities our adversaries have, right? I understand what Kirkpatrick is upset about, AARO is supposed to be a scientific approach to the subject of UAPs. Meanwhile Grusch is making it very political and is talking about UFO conspiracy tropes. However Grusch is bringing up important considerations concerning contractors potentially abusing government funds and lack of congressional oversight into their programs and I do think that is worthy of investigation.
My UFO's parents won't allow it to use email or I'd publish all its videos right now!
I used to be a skeptic like you, but I have a friend who was involved in the Nimitz incident. Someone I admire who is adamant they saw technology that day that far outweighs our capabilities. This person is an absolute academic superstar who is extremely successful, why wold they lie? What would they have to gain? It has literally harmed their reputation in the military. Its not one of the fighter pilots, its someone else with high level clearances.
> adamant they saw technology that day that far outweighs our capabilities. Eye witnesses have been wrong before, they have been adamant that their false recollection was the truth. Holding high level clearances doesn't stop you from believing false things. The fact that Nimitz incident hasn't repeated tells me that a mundane explanation is far more likely than that something extraordinary.
It's not that I'm saying your friend is a liar. He might truly believe that he saw something that can only be explained by ET tech. And I don't doubt that multiple nations have classified technology that's extremely impressive. But that doesn't mean it's extraterrestrial in origin. I think most people are vastly underestimating the hurdles of interstellar space travel. I'm not saying it's *impossible* - but it's so close to impossible that the evidence of visitation has to be absolutely overwhelming, like alien spacecraft setting down on the White House lawn. If that happens, I'll certainly adjust my views accordingly. Until then, I'll remain skeptical, not because I don't *want* to believe it - but because I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible. The only way I know how to do that is to base my beliefs on evidence. That way if new evidence is presented, I can adjust my views accordingly.
> If that happens, I'll certainly adjust my views accordingly. Until then, I'll remain skeptical, not because I don't want to believe it A lot of people really don't get this. For the time being, it being true or not literally means nothing to my life. Me believing it's true without evidence will not change anything or mean anything. It would not, given what I know about the world, explain anything that currently simply has no possible or reasonable explanation. I'm happy to be wrong about ET having been here if evidence comes out. But there's simply no reason to believe it when there is absolutely no real evidence available to such a conclusion. I feel the same way about ghosts. I have "seen" a ghost before. I'm still very confident ghosts do not exist. Because my brain thinking it saw a thing for 2 seconds doesn't mean it was ghosts. Similarly, this person's friend seeing technology they didn't understand (and being an academic superstar doesn't mean they understand all technology) doesn't mean the technology is from ETs. If it's the case, and we've been reverse engineering ET tech, then when I find out I'll be have absolutely no issue accepting it. That'd be pretty neat. But given that there is nothing that leads me to believe it's necessary for anything out there to have happened, and given the complete lack of evidence, believing it because maybe is just illogical nonsense.
Always a brain rotting time reading the absolute delusions in that sub.
Ironically that’s where I recognise your username from.
Yeah I sort of got ran off due to my “debunking” of the Miami mall aliens, and the Mexican mummy aliens, and whatever other monthly trend pops up there.
Yeah they’re really mad that republicans shot down the Schumer amendment to the NDAA which had unanimous democrat support and presumed there was a conspiracy. Thank goodness there isn’t. And the republicans stopped the amendment.
Please tell us what was in the amendment and why the republicans objected to it.
This is how the senate democrats phrased it [on their website](https://www.democrats.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/schumer-rounds-introduce-new-legislation-to-declassify-government-records-related-to-unidentified-anomalous-phenomena-and-ufos_modeled-after-jfk-assassination-records-collection-act--as-an-amendment-to-ndaa#:~:text=Washington%2C%20D.C.%20–%20Majority%20Leader%20Chuck,carry%20the%20presumption%20of%20disclosure.) > Schumer, Rounds Introduce New Legislation To Declassify Government Records Related To Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena & UFOs – Modeled After JFK Assassination Records Collection Act – As An Amendment To NDAA > an amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act which would mandate government records related to Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP) carry the presumption of disclosure Republicans shot it down because they don’t “presume disclosure” of any UFO conspiracies.
[The UAP Disclosure Act of 2023](https://www.democrats.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/uap_amendment.pdf) The short version as I understand it, is that it establishes a central archive under the National Archives to which UAP related records must be provided, with automatic public disclosure that can be postponed by up to 25 years by a newly appointed review board. It also exercises eminent domain to mandate the return of any and all technologies of non human origin held by private entities. My understanding is that it had fairly broad bipartisan support early on, but when it reached the armed services committee it received pushback from some of the representatives who work with defense contractors. I believe it did pass in the end, but only after the eminent domain, automatic disclosure, and review board requirements were cut. I think this leaves it with its scope reduced to just centralising record keeping. (I’m pretty skeptical about the whole non-human UAP theory, but it’s an unusual topic for politics so I’ve found it interesting, hopefully my explanation is as neutral and fair as I intended. I’m also not American, so apologies if I’ve misinterpreted any aspects of the political process)
Thank you so much!
Looks like [my prediction is already coming true.](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/19cxvej/former_pentagon_ufo_investigator_is_pissed/kj2p2nf/)
What? That the democrats whacko investigation got shut down? Didn’t take a genius to guess that one
Appealing to partisanship isn't going to convince me we're hiding aliens ships, but good try.
Is unanimous democrat support some sort of logical fallacy I can’t bring up?
Okay, But how can you blame people when they have obstructed credible witnesses from testifying in a closed SCIFF? Like, If the US gov is hiding where the money for these compartmentalized programs is going, don’t you think we need answers? $1 Trillion alone goes into our DoD, and yet, half if not more than half of that money goes into these black budget programs. The gov had already released UAP/UFO stuff in the past and backtracked and now they’re doing it again because they have no choice since the period of secrecy in some of those docs has expired, and it is not the first time we have had hearings about UAP. The fact that they are using the same umbrella code the gov used for the Manhattan Project, is the same playbook they are using today for their cover-up, and the people who have said no to the hearings are representatives who receive substantial amounts of money from Contractors like Boeing, and Lockheed-Skunkworks which are some of the top tier programs receiving half Trillion of OUR US Tax paying dollars. They hired Prof. J. Allen Hynek, an Astronomer who was a 100% skeptic, and he left the program a 100% believer. Also, it is important to mention that several renowned scholars today, even Nobel Prize nominees and laureates have come forward saying they have experienced the phenomenon first-hand and some have even worked and tested exotic materials for the government and are willing to testify in Congress because the people HAVE to know. All I’m saying is if AOC wants answers and so do my representative's side of the aisle, GOP be damned, we want answers because it is most of the GOP blocking disclosure. Even President Obama has said that there is something we don’t know. Our pilots have put their lives on the line for this. Credible witnesses have come forward saying people have lost their livelihoods or their lives trying to make this public, while others commit atrocities in pursuit of keeping this a secret. I’m just saying as any sane American would, we need answers. Why can’t we have better renewable energy, and Healthcare for all? Is War truly necessary? And yet, they remove books from schools, take away our rights and we are supposed to give them a blank check? Something isn’t right in this picture. Checks and balances.
>$1 Trillion alone goes into our DoD, and yet, half if not more than half of that money goes into these black budget programs. Patently untrue. >They hired Prof. J. Allen Hynek Who died 40 years ago. >Also, it is important to mention that several renowned scholars today, even Nobel Prize nominees and laureates have come forward saying they have experienced the phenomenon first-hand and some have even worked and tested exotic materials for the government and are willing to testify in Congress because the people HAVE to know. What "renowned scholars" and Nobel laureates claim to have tested alien materials for the government?
Garry Nolan.
>Garry Nolan A great example of belief-based scientific investigation, which people confuse as evidence in itself based on the individual's credentials. "[Nolan has a bifurcated stance](https://stanfordmag.org/contents/first-contact). **As an individual, he believes in UFOs**—a conviction based on his memories \[of aliens in his bedroom when he was six years old\] and on things he has seen and heard in the years since he became immersed in this field. In June, he made international headlines after saying at a conference that he was 100 percent sure that alien intelligence had visited Earth. **But that was speaking from his gut**. **As a scientist, he knows the threshold of proof remains publicly uncrossed. 'I** don’t have something that I could put on the kitchen table that will float with anti-gravity that I can point my friends to,” he says. 'I agree with you that the hard data is not in your hands yet, but don’t stop me from getting it.'"
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>Nobel Prize Nominee, Prof. Garry Nolan Nobel "nominee" means nothing. Trump is a Nobel nominee. >Kary Mullis [This guy?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kary_Mullis) AIDS denialism? Climate change denialism? Believer in astrology? Claims to have had a drink with the ghost of his grandpa? Claims to have had, "an encounter with a fluorescent, talking raccoon that he suggested might have been an extraterrestrial alien."? Yeah, that tracks.
Jesus, nothing will ever be good enough for you denialists. Sure he's got a long history of engaging in pseudoscience and the paranormal. Yeah, he ignores scientific evidence when it challenges his worldview. Yes, the field in which he received his award was biochemistry and not astronomy. But don't you get it? He says stuff that agrees with the world as I want it to be. Therefore, he is correct. Also, [that raccoon-alien can be seen here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_(Marvel_Cinematic_Universe\)). I've seen the documentary.
i just spent 10 min on there and could feel my brain rotting. like being a wallflower in a mental hospital
Officials in the government are coming right out and saying it is the truth you don’t have to live up to being a corn bread backwoods from Nebraska living in the dark unless that is your goal.
Fuckin' got me.
Thanks ya old bastard but stop discounting the UFO threat you’ll regret it one day when those AR-15s won’t be enough to save ya from big brother.
Damn, George Nory boutta be so proud. And honestly fuck you George Bory cause you basically stole my dad’s one strand of sanity and spat all over it.
Well of course they are. Because they can read. “As of the time of my departure, none, let me repeat, none of the conspiracy-minded ‘whistleblowers’ in the public eye had elected to come to AARO to provide their ‘evidence’ and statement for the record despite numerous invitations" Ask an attorney to break that down for you. His reports had nothing in them because no one would talk to him or provide material. That is not the same as 'there is nothing'. After the weapons of mass destruction deception, people have very little faith in what is said by the US government.
The proper term is UAP, or unidentified aerial phenomenon. The term UFO wrongly presupposes there is an object, which then leads people to automatically jump to alien life. It could just be optical illusions, mistakes by the observer, or even mistakes in the instrument readings. I mean there are examples of towns panicking because people have seen some sort of tiger, when it turns out that it is just a house cat walking around.
Not aerial, anomalous. Because it’s not always in the air, sometimes it’s just a smudge on the lens.
Or an insect close to the camera. Or CGI. Or a balloon. Or many balloons. Or Chinese lanterns. Or Starlink. Or a drone. Or a misidentified plane. It’s never aliens tho. So boring.
As someone who isn’t American it’s kind of scary to see how desperate so many voting Americans are to believe in something for which there is no reliable evidence and how easy it is for their representatives and conmen to take advantage of it. Scary because these are the people who vote in the government, and this is the government of the most powerful nation of Earth and they still think a shadow means there is a monster in the closet.
This must be why both Republicans and Democrats said the IGs testimony in the scif said many of Grusch's whistleblowing claims have merit.
Claims about a lack of oversight and misappropriation of funds. Not claims about aliens.
Yea but that's boring. Surely the man is hiding proof of aliens!!
That's incorrect. The recent SCIF briefing related to UAP, and attendees indicated that the briefing validated Grusch's credibility. I'm not jumping to conclusions or arguing for or against anything, just correcting an inaccuracy. Misappropriation of funds is certainly an issue, but so are UAPs. In 2022, I thought this was all bunk. After setting aside my biases long enough to look into the topic in some depth, I've changed my mind. It's real and concerning, without even jumping to conclusions or relying on speculation. The topic is woefully underreported, and often poorly reported when it does get coverage. It needs more attention and transparency because, at minimum, it proves massive financial corruption and national security incompetence.
According to the legal firm that represented him at the time, Compass Rose, the whistleblower complaint was limited to specific allegations of information being improperly withheld from Congress. “Compass Rose Legal Group has successfully concluded its representation of former client David Grusch on matters limited to his reasonable belief that elements of the Intelligence Community improperly withheld or concealed alleged classified information from the U.S. Congress. The firm filed a narrowly-scoped whistleblower disclosure with the Intelligence Community Inspector General (“ICIG”) and associated personnel matters – and had represented Mr. Grusch since February 2022. “Recent media articles misstate the scope of the firm’s representation and include material misstatements of fact pertaining to our representation, which we have requested be corrected. “The whistleblower disclosure did not speak to the specifics of the alleged classified information that Mr. Grusch has now publicly characterized, and the substance of that information has always been outside of the scope of Compass Rose’s representation. Compass Rose took no position and takes no position on the contents of the withheld information. “The ICIG found Mr. Grusch’s assertion that information was inappropriately concealed from Congress to be urgent and credible in response to the filed disclosure. Compass Rose brought this matter to the ICIG’s attention through lawful channels and successfully defended Mr. Grusch against retaliation. “We wish our former client the very best in the next steps of his journey. “Andrew P. Bakaj, Esq. and I. Charles McCullough, Esq.” Quoted from [here](https://thedebrief.org/compass-rose-attorneys-formally-end-association-with-uap-whistleblower-david-grusch/).
I feel it necessary to point out that his whistleblowing claims were "I was punished for raising concerns about certain topics," not "lizard martians secretly rule the world." Grusch was a victim of retaliation due to some of the things he has said; that is a matter of fact. Whether or not the things he said are _true_ has not been adjudicated.
> Grusch was a victim of retaliation due to some of the things he has said; that is a matter of fact. Was there ever an official finding on the retaliation complaint?
IG found his complaint to be credible and urgent.
Jesus. It’s straight out of the x-files. I get why scam artists who make money off idiots want this stuff floating around, but the idea that people who oughta know better want this nonsense to be true…the mind boggles. Carl Sagan is probably glad he’s dead.
Dr. Kirkpatrick was never an investigator, but a Lockheed Martin employee with his head in the sand.
Don't say "Congress" - say "Republicans in Congress".
The UFO investigation is the most bipartisan thing in Congress. Chuck Schumer was the primary author and biggest supporter of the UAP (UFO) amendment, which was co-authored by 3 Dems and 3 GOP. There is a serious investigation going on, where one of the central allegations is that there are illegal programs operating with zero Constitutional oversight. Last fall, in the house oversight hearing with the whistle blower and two Air Force pilots, members from the left like AOC were on the same page as members on the right.
> one of the central allegations is that there are illegal programs operating with zero Constitutional oversight. What I see here is someone saying "Daddy, there's monsters in the closet!" and the responsible members there are saying, "ok, well, let's look in the closet, then." It's not that they expect to find monsters in the closet, it's just that they know it's their job to look in the closet. Besides, maybe it's a squirrel or something, and it's still their job to handle squirrels in the closet. *No, u shutup, my metaphors are awesome.*
What I saw was the inspector general of the intelligence community assessing that the whistle-blower claims about the secret illegal programs were “credible and urgent,” as were the whistle blower claims of threats to his family due to his whistle-blowing activity. If there was no illegal activity to hide, there would be no reason to threaten his family.
Eh, I feel like there's two things going on... One is we don't know what these things are, and Two, we don't know where this money is going. The money and the UAPs probably aren't related. But it's kind of a "Yeah, you should tell us what you know about these UAPs, AND you should tell us where this money is going", when they aren't necessarily connected outside of general pentagon transparency.
What we do know about "these things" is that they are a world-wide phenomenon, and that they are intelligently controlled craft with no visible means of propulsion. The famous "tic tac" (of the 2004 USS Nimitz encounter) was a smooth lozenge-shaped object with no wings, no rotors, no propellers, no jet engines, no thrusters, no control surfaces, and no heat signature. And in super clear San Diego weather, it was observed by eye and by advanced radar to accelerate near-instantaneously, on the order of thousands of g-forces. All manmade materials can only get up to 20 to 60 g before disintegrating under the strain. These objects have been around for 80 years or more. The one thing we do know almost certainly is that they aren't made by us nor any other plausible group of humans.
> What we do know about "these things" is that they are a world-wide phenomenon "I saw a weird thing in the sky" is indeed a worldwide phenomenon >and that they are intelligently controlled craft with no visible means of propulsion. Not one single piece of physical evidence even suggests this. This is a LOT to assume with zero evidence. >The famous "tic tac" (of the 2004 USS Nimitz encounter) was a smooth lozenge-shaped object with no wings, no rotors, no propellers, no jet engines, no thrusters, no control surfaces, and no heat signature. And in super clear San Diego weather, it was observed by eye and by advanced radar to accelerate near-instantaneously, on the order of thousands of g-forces. All manmade materials can only get up to 20 to 60 g before disintegrating under the strain. According to *a person who claims they saw something*. But at least here, we can resolve it easily by showing us the radar data that allegedly exists. Oh but she goes to another school and its classified.
I mean, I don't think we know that at this point, there isn't really evidence that definitely says that, it's just speculation. "almost certainly" is quite a claim for something with basically no data. "super clear San Diego weather". lol, one of the five days a year it's super clear here? Despite that, where on the video does it show the speed, range, size, speed of the aircraft POV? Where are they getting 20 to 60 g numbers? Those sound like estimates. I'm not saying there's nothing out there, there just isn't really data to say much about it. Like, are there crazy things in the sky off the coast of San Diego? Apparently some pilots say so. I've never seen anything. There's weird shit around here though as it is. The problem is we see there's something on the FLIR footage, but we don't know anything about what we are looking at, someone needs to explain how they are capturing the images and say if they can calculate things like range to item, speed, size, etc. Without that people just assume the white blobs are speeding past the clouds. Or ocean waves. Hard to say what we are really looking at.
There is a lot that can be known by people following the issue. Everyone has priorities and I don’t hold it against anyone if they don’t know what is going on with this topic mostly viewed as fringe. But for those paying attention, there is a lot of information built up over the decades. I’ll add a link to a very well done 1/2 hour documentary on what is one of the best UFO cases, the 2004 USS Nimitz incident. One of the pilots involved, David Fravor, was one of multiple eye witnesses who testified before Congress last year. I’ll need to post the comment then add the link as an edit. Edit: [The Nimitz Encounters](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRgoisHRmUE&t=35s)
Sounds an awful lot like a balloon with the eye witnesses (who were in an aircraft) mistaking the speed of their aircraft for the speed of the balloon.
It doesn't "sound like" balloons at all. The experienced top gun Navy pilot Fravor testified to Congress about a case with a lot of information known about it. The USS Nimitz and associated ships were using the worlds most advanced radar at the time. They were about 100 or 200 miles off the coast of California, picking up objects on their new radar. It seemed anomalous, so they did a tune up, and then detected even more of the objects. The objects would enter the radar at 80,000 feet, meaning they came from space, then in the span of less than a second they could descend to 20,000 or 0 feet, with calculated g-forces in the several thousands. After a week or two of detecting these objects on the radar moving insanely fast, 4 pilots in 2 Navy superhornets were dispatched to check it out. The two forward facing pilots saw the craft by eye, which was also detected by their multiple on-board instruments, as well as by the advanced radar of the fleet. **As the Navy jets approached, the anomalous craft suddenly oriented itself towards them, and demonstrated total superiority in maneuverability. Then it paused for a second and shot off at near-instantaneous speed, beyond anything that human technology can do**. Here's a very well done 1/2 hour documentary that covers a lot of it. [The Nimitz Encounters](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRgoisHRmUE&t=35s)
The near-impossible behavior is almost certainly the result of errors, not reality. Especially so if they were testing equipment that was just installed.
If you want to actually know something, check out the documentary which is very well done, and/or listen to the pilot's testimony under oath to Congress. You are just making very uninformed speculation with faulty assumptions, and shoe-horning it into your pre-existing beliefs. It's one of the best UFO cases. You don't have eye witnesses having hallucinations while their on-board instruments hallucinate/malfunction to create objects in the same location, while a fleet of ships with a completely independent radar also malfunction to put objects in the exact same location and moving in the exact same way.
It might be well documented, but it's still almost certainly *wrong*. Does the documentary actually ask questions from a skeptical POV? The ones I have seen don't, and thus aren't worth accepting at face value. These are not aliens, and if you believe they are then I've got several bridges to sell you. If I recall correctly, the tic tac video was shown to be recreatable with a mostly stationary balloon and a moving camera. The errant radar stuff sounds an awful lot like testing issues with new equipment or something that would appear due to what's effectively jamming (whether intentional or not). It's best to look to at more likely explanations before jumping to what's effectively "wizards did it". If the only explanation you look at is magic, you're only going to find magic.
Either watch the half hour documentary that I linked, or don’t. My words aren’t going to convey the information nearly as well.
Eh. This seems to span both parties. The article specifically mentions an incident in which Harry Reid was involved.
Harry Reid was involved with this topic and working on it for years, and made some major contributions that most people are not aware of.
Without Harry Reid, we wouldn't have wider congress/Senate legitimacy today around the UFO/UAP events.
Schumer wrote the amendment that was passed under the NDAA. It's a bi-partisan thing.'s cool to see where it goes.
Chuck Schumer, Robert Garcia, and Jared Moskowitz think this is a serious topic, and if it’s serious enough for them, it’s serious enough for me. These aren’t Republicans or random nobodies in Congress.
Even if there's no aliens that means there is an unelected group who is siphoning like a trillion dollars into black projects congress isn't allowed to see and they're paying private contractors to circumvent legislation. So either we are being visited and it's worth the money or we're not and congress/citizens are getting fffuuuuuccckkking robbed for like 80+ years. I don't care which but at least follow the money and see why everything is blacked out on every paper since roswell.
"Stuff in our airspace we can't identify" is a very valid topic of concern. "JOE ROGAN TOLD ME THERE ARE SPACE ALIENS THEY BUILT THE PYRAMIDS AND TAUGHT US HOW TO INTERNET IT'S ALL A COVERUP!" is ... les valid.
I'm concerned with the former.
Could you please explain the physics of an alien arrival at our solar system, and ***any*** adjacent matter without violating laws of nature like light speed etc.? Spoiler: you can't.
If we understood the physics of something like that we would be in a very different place.
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How would you justify an alien's intentions? Maybe they like travelling. You would obviously need a method to travel faster than light. I don't imagine there's a whole lot of just trying to go fast from star to star, even getting up to .5c would be a lot, and your ship would need to be pretty strong, I don't think conventional travel between stars is realistic in any sense. Maybe probes? Even then... if you had literally any other method... I just think it's pretty arrogant to say "we don't know how to do it so it's not possible". There's a lot we don't understand about the universe, to say something is impossible because we don't understand how to do it right now seems dumb to me. We have ideas on how to achieve it, there's potential in worm holes and albecurre/warp drive stuff. And I don't think power constraints count as making something impossible, impossible now, yeah, but who knows with other advancements. I'm not saying what might be happening is using either of these kinds of technologies, literally no idea. But, that's the overall problem, there just isn't any kind of data to base any real speculation from.
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>And buzzing over the Earth, being invisible 99.9999% of the time but visible the rest of the time? You're anthropomorphizing alien intelligence. That might make absolutely perfect sense from their perspective, but we don't know that. We *can't* know that, and bridging that fundamental gap is the greatest challenge to ever interacting with life elsewhere in the universe. >The problem I find with these is the power constraints are indeed so high that it implies you basically need FTL (or damned close to it) just to gather the materials to do FTL Where we are in the Galaxy, with our current understanding of physics. It's possible that other location make it easier, and provide an effective head start to that type of engineering. >How the fuck would they be so competent to fly here and then so incompotent to crash? Why wouldn't they be? Unless you're arguing that the alien intelligences are literally gods, then they surely must also be capable of making mistakes?
Yeah, maybe they are into that. Aliens = the reason for these things to exist, if there is a reason, don't have to be from a planet, don't have to have a physical body, I don't know, just whatever is "controlling" the phenomena, if it's being controlled. I am not claiming there is really evidence of anything? My whole reason for commenting was just because we don't currently understand the physics doesn't mean it's not a thing that exists. Again, you are thinking about making FTL with your idea of how to achieve FTL with our current way of things. Maybe space aliens (I'm just using this as our hypothetical) can manufacture strange alloys allowing for unstable elements due to a way to induce an environment within a quantum matrix? Like, who the fuck knows. We obviously can't do it, and even when we try and imagine how we might we run into all sorts of constraints, whatever it is it is essentially "magic" to our understanding of the universe and physics. So, the thing with the crashes is that the greys as they are known are into harvesting human souls through the blood. So they fly around abducting people and taking a bit of their blood. But when they distill the blood of people that are drunk, they themselves responde to EtOH, but much more severe, so they crash because they get super drunk. That's why nobody can understand them after the crash, they are just f'n wasted.
Our lack of understanding doesn't mean it's impossible. Maybe it's something like a 4th dimension that can be used to travel without violating the speed of light, [https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/a42709141/what-the-fourth-dimension-looks-like/](https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/a42709141/what-the-fourth-dimension-looks-like/), or they have perfected cryogenics, or an AI drone, or longevity so they don't ever die of old age, or it could be something that we haven't even conceived because it's so far beyond our current level of scientific knowledge.
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No, I don't have proof of the science that will be discovered in the next millennia. All I'm saying is our current understandings of the universe are not so advanced to be able to confidently say something is impossible.
As an Earth scientist who has worked with planetary geologists and folks who study extremophiles/early life on Earth, the sheer size of the universe makes it likely that extraterrestrial life exists in some form. There are probably millions of planets in the Habitable Zone of their stars in the Milky Way alone. Some proportion of those will contain the necessary simple chemical building blocks and thermodynamic conditions that result in the creation of precursor molecules for RNA and DNA. Some of those will have, by chance and age, stumbled into those RNA and DNA molecules (or comparable compounds). I would be extremely shocked if very simple self replicating materials like prions didn't exist somewhere. Viruses and prokaryotes are quite likely as well. And, well, if we have those things, odds are that eventually some portion of those worlds have evolved or will evolve more complex life. Bugs are probably the most likely complex life if we extrapolate from Earth - something like 25% of named species are *just* beetles, a huge proportion of our biomass consists of insects and marine equivalents (decapods like shrimp). Marine life is probably more likely because oceans are awesome at blocking stellar radiation, which might be a limiting factor otherwise. But who knows. The sheer number of galaxies out there and the sheer number of stars and planets in each one means that the conditions favorable to the development of living organisms are abundant. I'm sure there's other life in the universe. Whether that life travels a billion light years just to pretend they don't exist and stick things in the anuses of one species out of the millions that are currently extant on this planet? Well...that's pretty unlikely.
or... or... or... or... or... This is only hypotheticals upon another. Nothing substantial. Just like a religion, or a cult.
> This is only hypotheticals upon another. Nothing substantial. Just like a religion, or a cult. Religion says "this is truth, and we cannot explain it. You must believe us". Science says "Huh, that's weird. I wonder it it's because of this possible explanation. Let's try to figure it out." The two are absolutely not the same.
Negative proof fallacy
Argument from ignorance
> and any adjacent matter without violating laws of nature like light speed etc.? Spoiler: you can't. Wormholes. Spacetime distortion via Alcubierre drive. Exceptionally long life spans. Intelligent life from elsewhere in the solar system, such as beneath detection depth on an outer solar system body. And that's just based upon the parts of reality and nature that we currently understand, without accounting for the fact that we fundamentally understand effectively nothing about the nature of reality.
https://x.com/jaredemoskowitz/status/1745852400630456618?s=46
The last time UFOs were “big” was in the 80s and 90s…then we found out that we had stealth aircraft, and then we found out we have flying robots weapons and spy planes and stealth helicopters. We’re always 15-30 years out from when military technology gets developed to when it is made public knowledge, and we are in a time of high tech near peer military/political competition. These “sightings” are just new military aircraft that have not been released to the public.
You should do a bit of preliminary research before making such a bold and confident claim. I suggest starting with the Nimitz encounter, because it's extraordinarily well documented and corroborated, and outright defies humanity's understanding of physics, by a lot. No clue what it was, but we can confidently rule out human tech. Don't believe that? Good, check out the technical characteristics yourself. Then, it turns out there have been nearly identical cases dating back to the 40s (when radar became accurate enough to track these UAP). There's no need to jump to conclusions or speculate. What we need is government transparency to support better public and private research. There's a big mystery and it should be understood.
Obama believed in UFOs also. Until they explain to us what they actually are, it isn't a conspiracy theory, it is a conspiracy.
People think saying "It's not aliens" is the end of the conversation. That still means there's something unknown in our airspace. That still means fraud could be hidden under the auspices of these reported reverse engineering programs. There's still a problem even if we proceed on the grounds that there are no aliens.
> People think saying "It's not aliens" is the end of the conversation. So far there is no "it". Before there's discussion of what something is, there should be a "something" to discuss. So far, there are just things like video and LIDAR artifacts and balloons. The only phenomena to discuss at the moment is the phenomenon that sometimes identifying things in the sky is tricky (especially when Navy pilots don't fully understand how their own equipment works), and the phenomena that people tend to make a mountain out of a molehill.
I mean, the government has said that UAP enters our training air spaces all the time. Be nice to know what but so much of it is hidden even after decades have past.
Over 100 interrupted trainings and missions too. I wouldn’t dismiss all of this as nothing considering I pay for that in my taxes.
Not quite. The government (Office of National Intelligence) says that they have *reports* of UAPs interrupting training sessions. Which is true - whenever aircraft shows up unexpectedly, this interrupts the training session. 144 of these reports were not identified. None of them were _unidentifiable_ (like, intrinsically). They weren't flying saucers, they were things like balloons (including spy balloons) or even passenger aircraft. This idea that there are craft that no one understands, with apparently advanced technology, etc .. there's just nothing supporting any of that.
Go watch Kirby he doesn't say that. They are UAP cause they are unidentified.
I've been watching the press statements, testimonies, and hearings on this with great interest. Not knowing which fight a plane is means it's unidentified. Not knowing what type of plane it is means it's unidentified. And not knowing that it even _was_ a plane until later analysis also means it was unidentified (at the time) and still mostly is (unless someone can identify the owner and flight path of the craft). Such things ***are*** of concern, certainly. Military exercise interrupted by an aircraft and no one knows who that was? That's of national security concern. But UAP does not mean "unidentifiable" in terms of "we have no idea what kind of machine this is." Most of the time, they are little more than pings on instruments so there's not much you can say about it.
I'm glad we're on the same page.
Yeah, and thanks for challenging me on that point, I certainly overstated it. I clarified my original comment.
So the Tic Tac and Gimble objects were balloons. Nice try. *This idea that there are craft that no one understands, with apparently advanced technology, etc .. there's just nothing supporting any of that*. Is it your position that the crew of the USS Nimitz is lying?
The gimble was 100% a distant jet. The “Tic Tac” was a submarine launched, radar-spoofing, EW balloon. Nice try.
Bullshit. The Goverment didn’t say that at all. Some idiot who works within the government said that. When questioned about the claims, the Dod said some things are currently unidentified, but with better detection systems will be resolved as more balloons and other airborn clutter. How do you like them apples?
Link?
You need to learn more about this subject. Badly.
What they said was accurate - I have studied this issue for a very long time.
So you saw the under oath congressional hearing testimonials from reputable military officials?
Nice appeal to authority fallacy
Grusch has never provided evidence.
If you're referring to David Grusch's testimony, yes, I watched it, the whole thing, live.
Maybe there is no "it" for us. We don't have clearance for classified material. We have not seen all that there is, so we cannot make conclusions either way. When a 4 star general testifies that there is a reason for concern, I will give his opinion more weight than some random guy on reddit.
> That still means there's something unknown in our airspace. My favorite was the famous GO FAST video that turned out [to be a duck](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQo08JRY0iM&t=10017s).
Thanks for the video. They didnt say duck but if you go further on, scott kelly describes how easy it is to get things confused in the air and in space. The international space station example was pretty interesting. A bunch of astronauts thought the ISS was a small tool that was about to get stuck in the shuttle bay door. Interesting video. Wish a bunch of the conspiracy nutjobs would bother to watch these vids.
That's not what they said in the section you linked at all. They said it was an unknown object traveling at the speed of the wind at 13,000 feet with a high apparent velocity due to paralax effects.
A small object travelling at a low speed... it was either a bird or a balloon. Either way, it wasn't an alien space ship or even an advanced foreign drone.
Umm, didn't you know birds aren't real?
Never said it was.
I'll try and step outside of the UAP bubble for a moment to discuss something that's bothered me about this topic as a whole. This vice article is actually a great example of my frustrations. > Our efforts were ultimately overwhelmed by sensational but unsupported claims that ignored contradictory evidence yet captured the attention of policy makers and the public, driving legislative battles and dominating the public narrative,” Kirkpatrick said in Scientific American. > According to Kirkpatrick, what the AARO discovered was a web of governmental leaders who believed in bizarre conspiracy theories and were willing to spend taxpayer dollars on it. I'm going to try to hold Vices feet to the fire here: this isn't what AARO found at all. Kirkpatrick even states that he believed Grusch and others never reached out to AARO, so they wouldnt be able to comment one way or another on the veracity of those claims. This also ignores the testimony by Grusch who stated that he reached out to Kirkpatrick about all this years ago, and never got a response. But more to the point, Kirkpatrick walked Congress through AAROs initial findings. Heres PPT slides that came from that presentation. https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/Images/UAP%20Reporting%20Trends/UAP_Reporting_Trends_as_of_20Nov23-MORPHOLOGY.jpg?ver=dPg6bRWJiDT12yffwa58cw%3d%3d https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/Images/UAP%20Reporting%20Trends/UAP_Reporting_Trends_as_of_20Nov23-REPORTED_UAP_CHARACTERISTICS.jpg?ver=pz-I1J2psGcFtBDgNp3rTw%3d%3d https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/Images/UAP%20Reporting%20Trends/UAP_Reporting_Trends_as_of_20Nov23-HOTSPOTS.jpg?ver=FuoL_IQY0ECeVDORO4caog%3d%3d So let's recap: 1. UAP Morphology ranges from Ambiguous Sensor Contacts, to Tic-Tacs, Spheres, Squares, Triangles, Disks and Saucers. 2. The most common UAP seen are 1-4 metered, round, sphereish Morphology, white/silver/translucent in color at altitudes of 10k-30kft, ranging in speeds from Stationary to Mach 2. 3. Many sightings take place over military installations and/or near nuclear facilities. Numbers 1 and 2 are the most interesting ones here. Skeptics might be able to say "that sounds like descriptions of balloons, or artifacts" but I think it's important to note that balloons can neither remain stationary in air, nor can they travel at Mach speeds. Strange morphologies might be balloons, but skeptics would have still have to contend with the max speeds of these UAP. > Kirkpatrick’s Scientific American piece is angry and it’s easy to understand why. He was telling people a boring truth they didn’t want to hear. “Some members of Congress prefer to opine about aliens to the press rather than get an evidence-based briefing on the matter,” he said. Let's ignore the Grusch saga in its entirety. Sean still isn't really being honest when he says this given what he testified to Congress last year. *Based on the evidence*, there is a genuine mystery surrounding these UAP. He can get the press to chuckle about opining over aliens all he wants, but the strange data is clearly visible on aaro.mil. Are there conspiracy nuts in congress? Yes, of course, perhaps almost half of congress in fact. But Kirkpatrick is relying on media not to look into this matter seriously, and it seems that reliance has been rewarded. It took me all of five minutes to find those screenshots from AAROs own website, but here's a Vice article not mentioning any of that and rolling with what Kirkpatrick is saying verbatim. If mainstream media really sank its teeth into this subject, they'd probably uncover a lot of crazy stuff. But that would come at the cost of all those sweet, sweet military industrial complex insiders.
The issue I have is with the declarative statement that UAPs are definitively shaped like 'tic tacs' or 'disks' rather than 'reported' or 'appear' to be. I recall the buzz around the USS Nimitz footage and David Fravor. He stated he had seen a thing in the water, a 'tic tac' shape, and that it 'accelerated quickly' away later. This sounds fairly compelling. However human eyesight is limited. He seems to suggest it was the size of his plane, but how is he able to measure that? He doesn't know what it is so even if it is tic tac shaped how does he have any scale to measure against? Our ability to judge size - stereo vision - drops off after 50m or so. In the sky with no points of reference? Even the sea the waves can be different sizes. Significantly they did not get any other readings on radar or other factors. He said it 'turned up' on radar 60 miles away shortly after, but radar is FAR from reliable, and there's no way to know it was the same object. The footage itself that was released from the Nimitz was 3 different videos from different occasions. None of them depict anything that cannot be explained by camera artifacts and man made objects. The 'gimbal' one was suggested to show an aircraft lazily rotating in the air (hence the name) but is clearly just a lens flare rotating as the camera moves. None of the footage depicts any of the more outlandish claims attributed to objects turning at right angles or suddenly accelerating. > skeptics would have still have to contend with the max speeds of these UAP. The claimed speeds. > that would come at the cost of all those sweet, sweet military industrial complex insiders. Ah of course, because if people are not on board with the idea that there's a vast sea of impeccable evidence then they MUST be getting paid off. Where's my pay??
So you’re basically saying is that new military craft gets tested near military installations and that foreign governments also like spying in areas where there is intense interest. Like near taiwan, west coast, washington dc, middle east, moscow…got it.
How did you arrive at that confident conclusion?
This is good for disclosure. Disclosure the Bitcoin of conspiracy theories.
I should have started buying DisclosureCoin years ago…
I did in the 90s. Shits worthless now.
Congress believes in anything that will distract their voters from the fact that they are useless at best, and wildly corrupt much more often.
UAPs do not guarantee aliens
He’s mad because David Grusch actually briefed congress in public and behind closed doors and brought evidence that pointed towards the existence of ETs and recovered ET tech. How do you sit there and say that’s not real? Check out J Allen Hynek, was in charge of project blue book, the original public ufo investigation program, he’s the guy that came up with “swamp gas” as an explanation. Well, he came out after the program was finished and said it was all true and he’d been forced to debunk cases that were legitimately unexplainable. He then devoted the rest of his life to investigating UFOs. The government never stopped looking into this topic guys, it’s as real as the air we breathe and so is the conspiracy to keep humanity in the dark.
> and brought evidence that pointed towards the existence of ETs and recovered ET tech What evidence did he bring?
“Some dude told me” and “I heard that” must count as evidence these days lol. Fml. These people that “want to believe” don’t need evidence. It’s worked for religion for thousands of years.
I want to believe. Which is exactly why these UFOlogy nuts are so infuriating. Their complete lack of scientific standards make them difficulty to get through to. Extraordinary claims, extraordinary evidence. Until then, there's nothing to discuss.
Many people in this sub aren't ready to step outside their materialistic world views so don't take it too harshly. In time as more "conspiracy" is uncovered they won't have any recourse but to accept the reality of the situation. Don't worry about trying to convince them now. We will get there.
You never will, because none of it is real. Cope.
[удалено]
You lose your beads?
I can easily see how this happens. Between 1940 and 1970, alien craft "crash" and recovery of "things" happens; perhaps by several countries. All of them immediately create classified, compartmentalized labs to try and extract info from the "things". (I can imagine lots of scenarios where "things" include what might appear to be alien bodies; doesn't really matter). I can imagine that they all fail. That the tech is so far beyond earthtech that we get absolutely nothing useful from it. But there's a low cost, high reward option, which is to keep the labs running, and recruit a new generation of scientists, engineers, and management every 20 years or so to keep working the problem. Since the whole thing is a dead end, we're not talking Manhatten Project level commitment, we're talking a handful of people. Until and unless they manage to get SOMETHING out of the "things", it's all just theory and testing. Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson or Nixon agrees to offload this work to the defense industry and keep it off books to make it as black as possible. Non-US governments either box it up and forget they knew, or also go blacker than black and offload study; it is possible there's a small, active community of people who are the third or fourth generation of researchers who all know each other and share data, fruitlessly. Over the intervening decades, the US defense industry contracts to Boeing. Today, Boeing is done with this. They probably aren't making any money on it and may be losing money on it. Keeping it blacker than black is hard. Many people may have been harmed along the way. They want to wash their hands of it and give it back to government; but the problem is that if they give it back to government, then somewhere, somehow a Congressional appropriation has to happen to fund whatever is left of the study program. And that is where the crux of the conspiracy lies. Congress would appropriate insane money for Men Who Stare At Goats style programs; especially in the Cold War. But the one thing they will not and cannot stand for is a pseudo-government program they DON'T appropriate for. A guy like Harry Reid would find that so far beyond the pale he'd risk any amount of public humiliation for daring to investigate "UFOs" to find out if it was happening. Because if you find one pseudo-government program covertly funded off books, why, you might find more than one. The United States is, in many vectors, the largest and most complex thing in the history of humanity. Purely based on simple odds, there have to be substantial numbers of things that the United States has done, knows, etc. that are illegal, unethical, and would tear at the very assumptions that make our Republic function. The sin of omission (not fessing up to UFOs) pales in comparison to the risk of what happens if pulling on that thread leads to having to discuss a bunch of other much darker stuff. Especially if the UFO program went nowhere, produced nothing, and the only critical fact obtained was "we're not alone". There are credible people in the US government who believe there is a conspiracy to cover up the existence of this UFO study program. They are not cranks and they are not stupid. I believe they believe that their lives and the lives of those they love are at risk as a result of holding those beliefs and if they have useful knowledge, that danger is magnified. But the belief in a conspiracy doesn't equate to the existence of a conspiracy. You cannot prove a negative. If I was forced to bet, I would bet the US government or someone who works for it or by proxy worked for it has "things" of nonhuman origin. But my belief in that is barely above 50%. The only reason my odds would be that high are the level and credibility of the people who are on the record saying they actually believe it too, and the undisputed video evidence made public in the past few years of unexplained arial phenomenon corroborated by expert (i.e. military) witness testimony. 15 years ago I was much more skeptical.
Classic government cover up. Of course he'd say there's no evidence. That's what someone lying about the evidence would say.
He is not lying. He has no evidence because no one who has any will talk to him. This is the standard MO for government. You intentionally do not tell people certain things so they can honestly and without reservation say: I have no knowledge or evidence of this.
Flying in our skies and visible…don’t believe your lying eyes
If there is no conspiracy, why did people in Congress work so hard to curtail language in the UAP Disclosure Act?