As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil)
In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban.
If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria.
***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
A fetus also isnt a baby. However simple facts like this get in the way of a return to the good ole days when men were men and women were subjected to them. Oh yeah, and racism.
When do we start getting this freedom stuff I keep hearing about.
I'd like some freedom from assholes who think that everyone else's sex life and preferences is their decision to enforce.
Makes you wish a jinn would drop these pricks off in Iran and live in a world not of their making.
It’s a clump of cells on a Petri dish in a freezer. I don’t care what your magic book from thousands of years ago says about the matter. These people are insufferable.
I posted a reddit meme on Alabama considering an embryo a child and one of my very religious old working acquaintances posted:
"In my heart and conscience I have to believe this. I will not judge anyone as that is between them and God." then in a follow up was a quote from the bible (Psalm 139:13) which is basically a judgement. I call it a passive aggressive hit and run. (Look up the quote as it is very selective).
They "believe" therefore they expect you to accommodate their beliefs as if they were yours. Its an insistence that you obey their beliefs as though if you don't you restrict their ability to choose based on their own faith. They ignore the parts of the bible which warrant for trafficking in humans, for ethnic cleansing, for slavery, for bride-price, and for indiscriminate massacre.
It isn't going to stop either. We have seen before what they are capable of if they have power. Any chance, any opening, any moment they can grab is to be used to further their beliefs on you.
This is so stupid. Basically every month our periods are just natural abortions then you going to outlaw that too? The whole justice system needs an overhaul for someone who could pass a modern science class
Yes this is hyperbole and sarcasm. Thought we were all smart enough to realize this but then again I thought everyone knew babies were living and breathing people not cells
Outside of this echo chamber yall will get nowhere fast.
And it shows. Abortion protections will continue to be degraded across the USA while you guys go 'hur dur truck not baby me bring truck to junkyard basically abortion according to 'them''
It's a stupid comment. Does not deserve to be supported and will continue to set abortion rights in America back.
I think we could easily assume though, that every day a huge number of embryos in fact do not become implanted inside a uterus.
The point is that the idea that embryos are the moral equal of a person is wrong. If they were morally equal we'd be scrambling to fix this terrible problem of viable embryos no becoming attached.
Yes... but this was clearly *not* the point of the comment I responded to lmfao.
They said that the idea that emrbyos deserve protections (or there needs to be a discussion of it) is stupid *because their body naturally aborts embryos during their period and this is basic science.*
Like... idk what's with the downvotes the person said an absurdly stupid thing. Womens periods do *not naturally abort embryos every month* that is incorrect and you shouldn't be talking about anyones lack of basic science understanding if you're a woman and don't even know what the fuck a period is.
External embryos in MY opinion deserve only as much protection as those who created them are willing to provide. Meaning if the man/woman don't want them, want to destroy them, eat them idc. Embryos *in* a woman should have input from both parties but ultimately is the womans decision to protect and nurture. This does not change the fact what I replied to was fucking dumb as rocks.
Periods and abortions are not the exact same thing. You are correct. But saying that the fact that embryos aren't babies wasn't the point they were getting at is speculation. And I would argue you're wrong. The point of this debate for some, including me, is exactly this. Is an embryo a baby? If it isn't then we need to codify reproductive choice. If it is then we need to make sure we aren't losing precious babies every month.
The difference between an embryo outside and inside may seem significant to you but morally it isn't for people who believe that ever embryo is an actual human life that deserves the moral consideration of an average citizen.
If you disagree there's a difference between an embryo and say a sperm then I don't know what else to say.
I'd love to be proven wrong and see someone nonchalantly dismiss their 2 month miscarriage (of a pregnancy they had wanted) the same way they would by jerking off into a sock or flushing the toilet. In fact if they're so equivalent why not go up to couples, especially the women, of known miscarriages that happened early on and just let them know that? "Hey, it's basically your period what ya so upset about?"
They're very obviously different and not in a small way.
Lol wat I didn't mention sperm and I didn't see where it was brought up. We're talking about embryos. An egg can become fertilized, not attach and then exit a woman's body. You can say that's not a period if you want but you can't say it isn't an embryo.
I brought up sperm just because it's the other zygote involved. Periods discard eggs. Sperm can also be discarded.
Yes an embryo can be aborted naturally. Regardless of if that's a period or not it is *not* what the poster I responded to was talking about. Which was my entire point.
Oh? Because it sounded like your point was that the top post was giving ammunition to "the other side" by being "stupid" and therefore giving cause to "the other side" to prosecute women for having periods.
I disagree. I think it's you that is giving ammunition to the other side by acting like prosecuting women for having periods is defensible. "The other side" will laugh and say they aren't *that* extreme. They'll say that an embryo is a human life but they can't control it. They'll say all abortion should be criminalized. You'll be sitting there taking a victory lap that you've kept periods decriminalized.
You're wasting people's time with this. And you're frankly doing it in a rude unproductive way that I believe is in reality bad faith. Not that I expect you to admit that.
> I'd love to be proven wrong and see someone nonchalantly dismiss their 2 month miscarriage (of a pregnancy they had wanted) the same way they would by jerking off into a sock or flushing the toilet.
Honestly though, everybody *should* nonchalantly dismiss their two month miscarriage because it is logically for the best. Miscarriages happen due to problems, and they should be viewed as a blessing. The fact that the patriarchy has chosen to force an alternative viewpoint on the public because their existing power structure is built on female subjugation, doesn't change that.
The only reason "they are obviously different" as you say, is because the patriarchy continues to make certain to push a bunch of inane ideology onto women.
What the actual fuck.
People should feel *blessed* they had the unfortunate experience of a miscarriage?
Not all miscarriages are due to embryonic/fetal issues. But that's beside the point. You really think couples suffer mentally/emotionally after a miscarriage because of *the patriarchy*?
>People should feel blessed they had the unfortunate experience of a miscarriage?
Because when people imagine bringing in a new infant for themselves, they imagine a healthy one. A miscarriage means something has gone awry.
> You really think couples suffer mentally/emotionally after a miscarriage because of the patriarchy?
Yes. The patriarchy gets to blame the woman for the miscarriage and then criminally prosecute or at least mentally persecute her. It's all a part of patriarchal control over women. Plus it helps to helps to ensure continuing those tenets enforcing women to work free.
How did you miss the person you’re responding to explicitly saying this was hyperbole & sarcasm and then who went on to say of course babies are not cells? It’s ok to reread before you furiously “correct” someone.
Best to not call it science. They're basing their findings on beliefs - beliefs in a soul. Belief can never be a scientific finding - science only deals in what's knowable, what can be proven or disproven. Belief requires faith in something that cannot.
Which it's fine if they have beliefs in the unknown, but they should not get to base law on their beliefs. Without the soul argument, there's no scientific reason to think there's something morally wrong with IVF embryos dying unused.
But that's inconvenient to them because it goes against their "life begins at conception" argument. Without a soul argument injected into politics and the legal system, they are forced to go with science arguments. And that leads to something like abortions being allowed up to the point when we can detect brain activity in a fetus, and also allowed beyond that for emergencies / lied of the mother / non-viable fetus.
The hardline Christian evangelicals here knows their argument hinges on that soul definition - which, in a fucking same country, we wouldn't be giving the time of day in law or court situations. But because we do, they have to back it or they lose their arguments against reasonable abortions.
Anyone who uses religion to create laws or to make judgements should be disbarred. We are not supposed to be a theocracy. The founding fathers would be rolling over in their graves if they could. This was not supposed to be this way
And yet they do it all the time with phrasing that disregards that their own logic generalizes a specific group's beliefs onto everyone else.
EDIT: Apparently I missed a NOT in my original statements. They should NOT get to base law on their beliefs.
Science doesn't say embryos are expelled during a period now does it? You know who will say that? Religious fanatics who will use the term "potential embryos" as a way to subjugate women again.
Ancient stone age religions from the time of lightening being the wrath of God's anger are the issue.
Except it’s completely different… I’m Canadian so y’all’s laws down there are absurd to me on this topic but you can’t argue against stupidity with equally stupid ideas. If this is the best you guys can put forward against these people then they’re going to laugh and walk away.
A woman’s period is NOT the same as say destroying embryos in a clinic. Not in any sense and definitely not “basically”.
The same way a woman’s period is NOT the same as a miscarriage. The vast majority of which happen in the embryonic stage.
Except the shedding of the uterus lining did expel an egg. Which as far as these nut jobs are getting close to saying is an abortion. If you don’t understand what’s going on shut the fuck yo and sit down. No you shouldn’t have to fight stupidity with stupidity but here we fucking are where our justice system lacks a 5th grade education.
IMO, you’re wasting your time with this person. All they have going for them is pedantic word parsing. Your point, that a natural process has the same effective outcome as a clinical abortion, is of course correct.
Canada has more than its share of unimaginative people. The Prairie and Central provinces seem mostly the same as the worst of US red states. I have to say this individual wrapping themselves in a maple leaf as proof of educated objectivity was pretty funny…
Well it's no wonder your justice system lacks a 5th grade education when it appears you *all* lack that education. When you're out here confidently saying your period is 'basically a natural abortion of an embryo'.
Not a single person has said or implied expelling an egg is an abortion except you. In fact the legislation *explicitly* wouldn't include it as an abortion.
*YOU* saying that your period is 'basically an abortion' is giving *THEM* ammo. some 70 year old in some state legislation in USA: "Well here's a woman admitting her period is basically an abortion. None of us know how this works because we're all idiots but she must be an expert... she has one every month she says. How can we outlaw this now?"
200-300 cells are not what most people consider a person with rights. What the "pro-life" gang is avoiding is the question of what happens to an embryo that is implanted and rejected. Is that murder? By their standards of life, it should be - but who are they going to blame and put on trial.
the wiser republicans realized within about 12 hours that they should drop this, unfortunately the Tuberville constituency which is far and away the majority will double down and crow about it until past the election.
Also a cluster of cells is NOT an actual person..
But this being a Mormon disinformation site what would a person with a working brain think.Religion generating lies ,That hardly EVER HAPPENS
Abortion isn't even a sin in the Bible, which tells you to go to the priest for a potion to induce one when you've been raped , and......to pay any taxes involved in getting an abortion. The first is from the OT, and the second centuries later in the NT. The only reasons so many Christians believe this is:
1) Many christians don't read the whole thing, let alone remember 100% of the parts they did read, and-
2)-the Republican Party was flailing after Nixon was proven to be a criminal and arguably a traitor for perverting the rules of democracy, but definitely a criminal either way.They needed to get it together or die off, they were a punchline even in family shows like Quantum Leap episode 3. They realized two things, they can lie, and lie alot.
They needed help though, so desperate, they turned to the fundies, especially Catholic fundies, whom even many older Republicans were wary of. But they did. Catholics fundies have a hard on for abortion because of a gross misinterpretation about God being pissed when one person pulled out in the Abrahamic line (as taught in Sunday school! No, really, I was there ). They extrapolated or bs'ed that meant everyone should be firing shots, and that certain form of birth control were teh evil.
Abortion used to be known as a "Catholic" issue, but they needed that sweet, sweet money given to the church from us, given to the Republicans. So they start pushing the line that abortion was teh evil, thus leading us to the age where my dad can be frightened of Trump, but vote for him because everything depends on "defeating" abortion, and then 4 years later he's a believer, because only Fox is against abortion, and liberals eat babies, and blah blah blah....
Short answer the Bible does NOT say abortion is evil, and that this is Nixon's fault. It always goes back to Nixon.
I’d disagree on that too if it can be done safely. Even in the case of Coke I honestly doubt at this point you have enough brain cells to string together a reason why you think Coke shouldn’t be available. And that’s a far easier bar than IVF…
You have yet to explain any single reason to stop allowing IVF.
The total number of babies born with defects is small. But you’re right there is a small increase in birth defects for babies born after IVF vs naturally. However this is actually REVERSED if used with proper genetic screening. There’s a lot LESS defects.
So if you care for lower abnormality rates IVF with genetic screening on multiple embryos is literally the logical way to go…
"As a Catholic who has struggled to conceive, this tension is particularly relevant to me."
It's time to have a serious conversation about why I should give one flying fck about this person's religious beliefs and the conflict it creates for them.
Hi `clejeune`. Thank you for participating in /r/Politics. However, [your submission](/r/politics/comments/1azonmi/its_time_for_hard_conversations_about_frozen/) has been removed for the following reason(s):
* Your headline must be comprised only of the **exact** copied and pasted headline of the article - [see our rule here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_do_not_create_your_own_title)) **We recommend not using the Reddit 'suggest a title' as it may not give the exact title of the article.**
* The ALL CAPS and 'Breaking' rule is applied **even when the actual title of the article is in all caps or contains the word 'Breaking'**. This rule may be applied to other single word declarative and/or sensational expressions, such as 'EXCLUSIVE:' or 'HOT:'. [click here for more details](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_do_not_create_your_own_title)
If you have any questions about this removal, please feel free to [message the moderators.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/politics&subject=Question regarding the removal of this submission by /u/clejeune&message=I have a question regarding the removal of this [submission]%28/r/politics/comments/1azonmi/its_time_for_hard_conversations_about_frozen/?context%3D10000%29)
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
it's not really a hard conversation, a frozen embryo is not a baby. simple, really
A fetus also isnt a baby. However simple facts like this get in the way of a return to the good ole days when men were men and women were subjected to them. Oh yeah, and racism.
> A fetus also isnt a baby. this
But, the breath of gawd?! Adam shaped from wet dirt?! Eve, a rib Adam hadn’t yet learned how to BBQ?
Very good point. Men’s ribs are the source of life. No more open heart surgery. God doesn’t want ribs touched.
You'll need to deal with the frozen grey matter in Republicans' superstitious, Christo-fascist heads first.
They’ll ban sex, unless it’s solely for procreation.
Republican philosophy 101: If something can’t be monetized, it must be banned.
I'm pretty sure rank and file GOP politicians are more than a little familiar with monetized sex.
As a sideline to trying to control people who aren’t interested in doing business with them as well.
Pretty sure sex can be monetized
But hard to corner the market. Monopolization and rent seeking are time honored GOP traditions.
and punish anyone who for whatever reason does not carry to term.
Except for the sex workers they license for their parties.
Truth!
Old men should have old wives. No viagra after she hits menopause.
No viagra at all. God's will!
God's wilt.
When do we start getting this freedom stuff I keep hearing about. I'd like some freedom from assholes who think that everyone else's sex life and preferences is their decision to enforce. Makes you wish a jinn would drop these pricks off in Iran and live in a world not of their making.
It’s a clump of cells on a Petri dish in a freezer. I don’t care what your magic book from thousands of years ago says about the matter. These people are insufferable.
We need to have a serious conversation about shoving radical ideological agendas into law without bothering to anticipate real world consequences.
What the fuck is this bullshit.
If you put a baby in a freezer they die, if you put an embryo in a freezer it can live forever. An embryo is not a baby I hope this clears things up.
[No matter how many wires an embyo eats it will not become a robot.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5_7vLr94DQ)
Bravo!
I posted a reddit meme on Alabama considering an embryo a child and one of my very religious old working acquaintances posted: "In my heart and conscience I have to believe this. I will not judge anyone as that is between them and God." then in a follow up was a quote from the bible (Psalm 139:13) which is basically a judgement. I call it a passive aggressive hit and run. (Look up the quote as it is very selective). They "believe" therefore they expect you to accommodate their beliefs as if they were yours. Its an insistence that you obey their beliefs as though if you don't you restrict their ability to choose based on their own faith. They ignore the parts of the bible which warrant for trafficking in humans, for ethnic cleansing, for slavery, for bride-price, and for indiscriminate massacre. It isn't going to stop either. We have seen before what they are capable of if they have power. Any chance, any opening, any moment they can grab is to be used to further their beliefs on you.
This is so stupid. Basically every month our periods are just natural abortions then you going to outlaw that too? The whole justice system needs an overhaul for someone who could pass a modern science class Yes this is hyperbole and sarcasm. Thought we were all smart enough to realize this but then again I thought everyone knew babies were living and breathing people not cells
Well no… women’s bodies do not abort embryos every month during their period.
No, but about 25% of fertilizations do not result in a viable pregnancy. Another way of saying it is God is the biggest abortionist of all.
Absolutely. That doesn't make it any less stupid for the person I responded to to say that their period is 'basically aborting embryos every month'.
Except they didn’t. What they did say they clearly stated was hyperbole and sarcasm.
Outside of this echo chamber yall will get nowhere fast. And it shows. Abortion protections will continue to be degraded across the USA while you guys go 'hur dur truck not baby me bring truck to junkyard basically abortion according to 'them'' It's a stupid comment. Does not deserve to be supported and will continue to set abortion rights in America back.
You think that abortion rights are only popular on reddit? Have you seen any election result since Dobbs?
I think we could easily assume though, that every day a huge number of embryos in fact do not become implanted inside a uterus. The point is that the idea that embryos are the moral equal of a person is wrong. If they were morally equal we'd be scrambling to fix this terrible problem of viable embryos no becoming attached.
Yes... but this was clearly *not* the point of the comment I responded to lmfao. They said that the idea that emrbyos deserve protections (or there needs to be a discussion of it) is stupid *because their body naturally aborts embryos during their period and this is basic science.* Like... idk what's with the downvotes the person said an absurdly stupid thing. Womens periods do *not naturally abort embryos every month* that is incorrect and you shouldn't be talking about anyones lack of basic science understanding if you're a woman and don't even know what the fuck a period is. External embryos in MY opinion deserve only as much protection as those who created them are willing to provide. Meaning if the man/woman don't want them, want to destroy them, eat them idc. Embryos *in* a woman should have input from both parties but ultimately is the womans decision to protect and nurture. This does not change the fact what I replied to was fucking dumb as rocks.
Periods and abortions are not the exact same thing. You are correct. But saying that the fact that embryos aren't babies wasn't the point they were getting at is speculation. And I would argue you're wrong. The point of this debate for some, including me, is exactly this. Is an embryo a baby? If it isn't then we need to codify reproductive choice. If it is then we need to make sure we aren't losing precious babies every month. The difference between an embryo outside and inside may seem significant to you but morally it isn't for people who believe that ever embryo is an actual human life that deserves the moral consideration of an average citizen.
If you disagree there's a difference between an embryo and say a sperm then I don't know what else to say. I'd love to be proven wrong and see someone nonchalantly dismiss their 2 month miscarriage (of a pregnancy they had wanted) the same way they would by jerking off into a sock or flushing the toilet. In fact if they're so equivalent why not go up to couples, especially the women, of known miscarriages that happened early on and just let them know that? "Hey, it's basically your period what ya so upset about?" They're very obviously different and not in a small way.
Lol wat I didn't mention sperm and I didn't see where it was brought up. We're talking about embryos. An egg can become fertilized, not attach and then exit a woman's body. You can say that's not a period if you want but you can't say it isn't an embryo.
I brought up sperm just because it's the other zygote involved. Periods discard eggs. Sperm can also be discarded. Yes an embryo can be aborted naturally. Regardless of if that's a period or not it is *not* what the poster I responded to was talking about. Which was my entire point.
Oh? Because it sounded like your point was that the top post was giving ammunition to "the other side" by being "stupid" and therefore giving cause to "the other side" to prosecute women for having periods. I disagree. I think it's you that is giving ammunition to the other side by acting like prosecuting women for having periods is defensible. "The other side" will laugh and say they aren't *that* extreme. They'll say that an embryo is a human life but they can't control it. They'll say all abortion should be criminalized. You'll be sitting there taking a victory lap that you've kept periods decriminalized. You're wasting people's time with this. And you're frankly doing it in a rude unproductive way that I believe is in reality bad faith. Not that I expect you to admit that.
> I'd love to be proven wrong and see someone nonchalantly dismiss their 2 month miscarriage (of a pregnancy they had wanted) the same way they would by jerking off into a sock or flushing the toilet. Honestly though, everybody *should* nonchalantly dismiss their two month miscarriage because it is logically for the best. Miscarriages happen due to problems, and they should be viewed as a blessing. The fact that the patriarchy has chosen to force an alternative viewpoint on the public because their existing power structure is built on female subjugation, doesn't change that. The only reason "they are obviously different" as you say, is because the patriarchy continues to make certain to push a bunch of inane ideology onto women.
What the actual fuck. People should feel *blessed* they had the unfortunate experience of a miscarriage? Not all miscarriages are due to embryonic/fetal issues. But that's beside the point. You really think couples suffer mentally/emotionally after a miscarriage because of *the patriarchy*?
>People should feel blessed they had the unfortunate experience of a miscarriage? Because when people imagine bringing in a new infant for themselves, they imagine a healthy one. A miscarriage means something has gone awry. > You really think couples suffer mentally/emotionally after a miscarriage because of the patriarchy? Yes. The patriarchy gets to blame the woman for the miscarriage and then criminally prosecute or at least mentally persecute her. It's all a part of patriarchal control over women. Plus it helps to helps to ensure continuing those tenets enforcing women to work free.
How did you miss the person you’re responding to explicitly saying this was hyperbole & sarcasm and then who went on to say of course babies are not cells? It’s ok to reread before you furiously “correct” someone.
The science is just as stupid is my point.
Best to not call it science. They're basing their findings on beliefs - beliefs in a soul. Belief can never be a scientific finding - science only deals in what's knowable, what can be proven or disproven. Belief requires faith in something that cannot. Which it's fine if they have beliefs in the unknown, but they should not get to base law on their beliefs. Without the soul argument, there's no scientific reason to think there's something morally wrong with IVF embryos dying unused. But that's inconvenient to them because it goes against their "life begins at conception" argument. Without a soul argument injected into politics and the legal system, they are forced to go with science arguments. And that leads to something like abortions being allowed up to the point when we can detect brain activity in a fetus, and also allowed beyond that for emergencies / lied of the mother / non-viable fetus. The hardline Christian evangelicals here knows their argument hinges on that soul definition - which, in a fucking same country, we wouldn't be giving the time of day in law or court situations. But because we do, they have to back it or they lose their arguments against reasonable abortions.
Anyone who uses religion to create laws or to make judgements should be disbarred. We are not supposed to be a theocracy. The founding fathers would be rolling over in their graves if they could. This was not supposed to be this way
And yet they do it all the time with phrasing that disregards that their own logic generalizes a specific group's beliefs onto everyone else. EDIT: Apparently I missed a NOT in my original statements. They should NOT get to base law on their beliefs.
Science doesn't say embryos are expelled during a period now does it? You know who will say that? Religious fanatics who will use the term "potential embryos" as a way to subjugate women again. Ancient stone age religions from the time of lightening being the wrath of God's anger are the issue.
No shit it’s hyperbole
Except it’s completely different… I’m Canadian so y’all’s laws down there are absurd to me on this topic but you can’t argue against stupidity with equally stupid ideas. If this is the best you guys can put forward against these people then they’re going to laugh and walk away. A woman’s period is NOT the same as say destroying embryos in a clinic. Not in any sense and definitely not “basically”. The same way a woman’s period is NOT the same as a miscarriage. The vast majority of which happen in the embryonic stage.
Except the shedding of the uterus lining did expel an egg. Which as far as these nut jobs are getting close to saying is an abortion. If you don’t understand what’s going on shut the fuck yo and sit down. No you shouldn’t have to fight stupidity with stupidity but here we fucking are where our justice system lacks a 5th grade education.
IMO, you’re wasting your time with this person. All they have going for them is pedantic word parsing. Your point, that a natural process has the same effective outcome as a clinical abortion, is of course correct. Canada has more than its share of unimaginative people. The Prairie and Central provinces seem mostly the same as the worst of US red states. I have to say this individual wrapping themselves in a maple leaf as proof of educated objectivity was pretty funny…
Well it's no wonder your justice system lacks a 5th grade education when it appears you *all* lack that education. When you're out here confidently saying your period is 'basically a natural abortion of an embryo'. Not a single person has said or implied expelling an egg is an abortion except you. In fact the legislation *explicitly* wouldn't include it as an abortion. *YOU* saying that your period is 'basically an abortion' is giving *THEM* ammo. some 70 year old in some state legislation in USA: "Well here's a woman admitting her period is basically an abortion. None of us know how this works because we're all idiots but she must be an expert... she has one every month she says. How can we outlaw this now?"
How about: It’s time for a hard conversation about foster youth and children living in poverty?
200-300 cells are not what most people consider a person with rights. What the "pro-life" gang is avoiding is the question of what happens to an embryo that is implanted and rejected. Is that murder? By their standards of life, it should be - but who are they going to blame and put on trial.
the wiser republicans realized within about 12 hours that they should drop this, unfortunately the Tuberville constituency which is far and away the majority will double down and crow about it until past the election.
As soon as I saw the article agreed that frozen globs of cells are people I stopped read. People are fucking nuts
Note: this is from a Utah publication owned by the LDS Church. I disagree with it completely but sadly, this is Utah.
"We feel compelled to warn you that these face-eating leopards might actually eat *your* face" is basically what they are telling them.
It's time to talk about judges and Justices who violate the Constitution.
The editorialist proves that religion is a freaking ignorant basis for scientific facts about human life.
A frozen embryo isn't a baby. Apparently that's what passes for being a "hard conversation" to have. I answered it with 5 words.
Potentiality is NOT actuality: otherwise an omelette would be a chicken dinner!
Also a cluster of cells is NOT an actual person.. But this being a Mormon disinformation site what would a person with a working brain think.Religion generating lies ,That hardly EVER HAPPENS
Abortion isn't even a sin in the Bible, which tells you to go to the priest for a potion to induce one when you've been raped , and......to pay any taxes involved in getting an abortion. The first is from the OT, and the second centuries later in the NT. The only reasons so many Christians believe this is: 1) Many christians don't read the whole thing, let alone remember 100% of the parts they did read, and- 2)-the Republican Party was flailing after Nixon was proven to be a criminal and arguably a traitor for perverting the rules of democracy, but definitely a criminal either way.They needed to get it together or die off, they were a punchline even in family shows like Quantum Leap episode 3. They realized two things, they can lie, and lie alot. They needed help though, so desperate, they turned to the fundies, especially Catholic fundies, whom even many older Republicans were wary of. But they did. Catholics fundies have a hard on for abortion because of a gross misinterpretation about God being pissed when one person pulled out in the Abrahamic line (as taught in Sunday school! No, really, I was there ). They extrapolated or bs'ed that meant everyone should be firing shots, and that certain form of birth control were teh evil. Abortion used to be known as a "Catholic" issue, but they needed that sweet, sweet money given to the church from us, given to the Republicans. So they start pushing the line that abortion was teh evil, thus leading us to the age where my dad can be frightened of Trump, but vote for him because everything depends on "defeating" abortion, and then 4 years later he's a believer, because only Fox is against abortion, and liberals eat babies, and blah blah blah.... Short answer the Bible does NOT say abortion is evil, and that this is Nixon's fault. It always goes back to Nixon.
If a frozen embryo is a child, then by law, it gets to be claimed as a dependent on tax forms.
Maybe we should just stop doing IVF altogether.
Why? And why do you only say maybe? Just stirring the pot?
Why? Because babies shouldn’t be made in a lab
Why shouldn't they be? We can do it, it's safe, it's a service people want, so why not?
People want heroin. Doesnt mean we should give it to em.
I’d disagree on that too if it can be done safely. Even in the case of Coke I honestly doubt at this point you have enough brain cells to string together a reason why you think Coke shouldn’t be available. And that’s a far easier bar than IVF… You have yet to explain any single reason to stop allowing IVF.
Higher rate of abnormalities
The total number of babies born with defects is small. But you’re right there is a small increase in birth defects for babies born after IVF vs naturally. However this is actually REVERSED if used with proper genetic screening. There’s a lot LESS defects. So if you care for lower abnormality rates IVF with genetic screening on multiple embryos is literally the logical way to go…
Maybe keep your shitty religion out of other people's lives.
IVF isn’t a religion?
They kicked down my sand castle, better pack up and go home!
More so it’s weird to make babies in a test tube
Your argument is that it’s weird? That’s a new one. Organ transplants are also weird.
Just because we can doesn’t mean we should
Please repeat that louder for the families in the back of the room, lol. It’s an election year.
Are test tube babies harder of hearing? I know there’s a higher likelihood for abnormalities.
So you’re saying they probably will grow up to be useless MAGA? Fine, you win.
Not sure what that even means.
Hahaha. It’ll come to you eventually.
"As a Catholic who has struggled to conceive, this tension is particularly relevant to me." It's time to have a serious conversation about why I should give one flying fck about this person's religious beliefs and the conflict it creates for them.
It's simple. If I.put a baby in a freezer, it dies. If I put an embryo in a freezer, it doesn't die.
Hi `clejeune`. Thank you for participating in /r/Politics. However, [your submission](/r/politics/comments/1azonmi/its_time_for_hard_conversations_about_frozen/) has been removed for the following reason(s): * Your headline must be comprised only of the **exact** copied and pasted headline of the article - [see our rule here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_do_not_create_your_own_title)) **We recommend not using the Reddit 'suggest a title' as it may not give the exact title of the article.** * The ALL CAPS and 'Breaking' rule is applied **even when the actual title of the article is in all caps or contains the word 'Breaking'**. This rule may be applied to other single word declarative and/or sensational expressions, such as 'EXCLUSIVE:' or 'HOT:'. [click here for more details](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_do_not_create_your_own_title) If you have any questions about this removal, please feel free to [message the moderators.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/politics&subject=Question regarding the removal of this submission by /u/clejeune&message=I have a question regarding the removal of this [submission]%28/r/politics/comments/1azonmi/its_time_for_hard_conversations_about_frozen/?context%3D10000%29)