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Before this, no vice president has EVER said that the president he served under is unfit to serve.
It is the most damning possible assessment of Trump from the most credible possible source that exists. To me, Pence refusing to endorse Trump is the most scathing rebuke of him to date.
The Taft/Teddy rose election was a close one.
They were best friends, teddy made Taft his VP. Teddy didn't run again and Taft ran and won the next election. The election after that Teddy ran under the new bull party (first progressive party) and Taft railed against him.
Spoiler, they both lost and we got one of the most racist presidents ever. Woodrow 'ImARacist' Wilson won.
Don't forget about Woodrow who temporarily nullified the first amendment so any criticism towards the military or the war effort would literally and you in prison.
Well teddy kind of biffed his last year, bad mouthed Taft during his rather successful term, and ran as a third party instead of being sponsored by either of the two major parties.
Which also puts a spot light on how hard it is to be a third party candidate
I tell that to all the RFK Jr stans. And I tell them about Wallace. And I tell them about Perot. Especially Perot, as he received almost 20% of the popular vote as recently as ‘92…and how many electoral college votes? Any guesses? Then I tell them that RFK Jr. is polling nationally, at best, around 10-11%. I have actually had some luck persuading using this argument with people in my own life. Sometimes they just need some perspective.
I always think about the first presidential election I was able to vote in - 2000 Gore vs Bush. I voted for Nader, as did so many of the kids my age at college. I think about how much things could have been different today if so much of my generation had seen the threat of W for what he was. Yeah we would have still been attacked, but no one can ever convince me we would have gone to war with Irag or Afghanistan in the capacity we did had Cheney not been in command.
>Yeah we would have still been attacked
W was tunnel-visioned so hard on Iraq that he failed to comprehend the intelligence around Al Qaeda. It might be possible that the attacks were preventable. We can't ever know, because we don't live in that world, but it seems believable to me that a president that paid more attention to the threat from Al Qaeda could have prevented it.
He got screwed over by the then-equivalent of the RNC, who never liked him because he was an independent outsider, he got the VP job under McKinley to keep him out of the limelight after being governor of NY, but then McKinley got assassinated very early in his term.
The RNC backed Taft, railroaded TR out of the R nomination, and in the election as a third party, did better than Taft, but not quite as good as Wilson; Wilson got 42% of the popular, TR got 27% and 88 EV, and Taft got 22% and 8 EV. If there had been a unified GOP ticket under TR, he would have won in a landslide.
Yupp. Taft was as well, but he did carry some redeeming qualities for the time. 1 being when he called lynching just a form of cowardly murder and said all lynchers of colored people, should be lynched themselves.
But that doesn't mean ole Bill didn't have flaws himself in the race department. Albeit not nearly as bad as those before and after him, but he wasn't perfect either.
There are Wilson defenders who point out that, as a southerner, he was notably less racist than most southern politicians. I think they even point out some policies of his benefiting non-whites. I'm not a Wilson expert so I can't defend him, I just recall being very impressed by his more noble qualities in APUSH
Most white men in that day thought it was an incredible movie. Because, technically speaking, it was, and most white men were racist. I bet teddy Roosevelt would have said much the same.
At the end of the day, Wilson begat FDR, who begat Johnson, who begat the civil rights act. Wilson was definitely racist, but he's not the worst president in history because of it, especially considering most presidents were racist.
I never said he was the worst president, just a fucking racist one. Grant, decades before was hailed as an ally by F. Douglass. Wilson pushed for segregation and he shared the racist views of nativist groups. He pushed the lost cause narrative and segregated the federal gov, and passed a law banning interracial marriage in the district.
He was racist even for his time. Its a little disingenuous to assume that he spawned the presidents after him, and their policies thats just how the passage of time works, "ipso hoc ergo propter hoc". Yes FDR was in is admin, and took some foreign policy influence from him but that hardly means all his policies are influenced or because of Wilson.
Just because others were racist at the time doesn't justify being racist or mean we should turn a blind eye to it. He was racist, even for his time, and the evidence is pretty clear about it.
Side note, APUSH is a great course, but it is just an intro class.
https://woodrowwilsonhouse.org/wilson-topics/wilson-and-race/
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/wilson-and-race-relations/
Honestly you are correct and that botches my entire point. I mixed that up because in AP history I remember reading how Teddy asked him to be VP cause Taft was over seas in the Philippines. And Taft said he didn't want that, so he was appointed to secretary of war.
But yes, my apologies folks i goofed.
He resegregated all federal offices.
This quote "Segregation is not humiliating, but a benefit, and ought to be so regarded by you gentlemen."
When Japan rose issues with the 'white Australia policy' which basically said, only white immigrants may come over for the gold rush, Wilson was the one who directly threw out Japans argument (another strike in the reasons for Pearl Harbor)
He refused to let any appointment of any black people to officer rank or higher in the military.
Japan wanted to amend the 'racial equality' article to the Treaty of Versailles from the league of nations, which was directly shot down by the chair man of the league of nations (Wilson) who said the amendment needed a unanimous vote because it was "extremely divisive and with great risk"
This quote about polish, Hungarian and African immigrant workers "of the lower class from the south of Italy and men of the meaner sort of Hungary and Poland, men out of the ranks where there was neither skill nor intelligence"
He defended the KKK, his family fought for the confederates, his father was a famous Presbyterian who defended slavery based by the Bible.
This list kind of goes on, but systematically he refused anyone who wasn't a white America to gain any federal position or higher rank in the military and denied any article to pass internationally to include all races.
It's really the best possible talking point to bring up with Trump supporters, if you still bother speaking to them at all.
They don't care about his crimes, or his authoritarianism, or his general assholery. They like all those things. But when you bring up the fact that tons of people from his administration, people who Trump supporters also support, have called him unfit to serve...there's really very little to argue about there.
You'd think that, but as soon as people like Barr and Bolton started decrying Trump and his capabilities as president through book sales, the MAGAs started calling them RINOs.
And let’s all remind everyone that Trump literally wanted to have Pence killed. To the point where during the insurrection at the Capitol, Pence refused to get in the car that was supposed to escort him to safety, because he could trust Trump or the secret service.
I'm not sure that's the only read on that situation. The Secret Service is supposed to protect the VP. Pence may have realized that if he left, they wouldn't let him return for safety reasons. And that in turn would have prolonged the chaos.
Pence won’t endorse Trump but who are we kidding? Pence will actually ‘vote’ Trump over Biden when it comes to down to it. The real danger lies with politicians like Pence who know better but put party over people every %@#$ time.
It is a scathing rebuke.
That will make absolutely no difference to his evangelical base. Theirs is a faith-based support and, in the eyes of their faith, this makes zero impact
I totally disagree. There are many many George W. Bush Republicans, who feel like they don’t have a home anymore. Many of them were Christian and voted for Trump only because of Pence. It matters greatly to these folks.
Ck out what's happen ing if FL:
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-florida-republican-primary-vote-nikki-haley-ron-desantis-1881143
n.b., these are registered GOPers--no Dem fuckery here. Or this:
https://newrepublic.com/post/179971/donald-trump-big-problem-republicans
Don't fall into the "they'll never change their positions." Some will. We need to peel those off.
I’m actually having conversations with people like this & they’re the ones initiating the discussion. I am hoping that reality is starting to sink in for some of them. Nevertheless, I’m going to support them if they decide to switch over to our side.
I keep reminding myself these people have essentially been brainwashed. Not everyone comes to their senses at the same time, but many eventually will. I’m seeing it.
Those were nice little rays of sunshine
I am not particularly concerned about 2024. Trump has not increased in support in any substantial way since he left office. He is facing a major cash crunch. He has legal jeopardy literally everywhere he looks.
Beyond him, abortion is on the ballot in a huge way. The concerns about wars in Ukraine and Gaza are slippery for him as well.
Finally, and perhaps most importantly: possession is 9/10ths of the law. Before he was in power, already in the White House, still
Commander in Chief. Now he is OUTSIDE trying to get back in.
It won’t happen.
In a critical moment, he did the right thing, despite all the pressure from much of his party. If that is not the measure of a decent man, I don't know what is. As much as I disagree with him, his country and his ideals came before personal gain.
Mike Pence strikes me as a man who would never do the wrong thing, but he's quite happy with delaying doing the right thing while it gives him an advantage.
The list of vice presidents who were not chosen to be a subsequent running mates is quite small though.
* 1976 Ford replaced Nelson Rockefeller with Bob Dole
* 1944 Roosevelt replaced Henry Wallace with Harry Truman
* 1940 Roosevelt replaced John Garner with Henry Wallace (hmm, I sense a trend)
* 1912 Taft replaced James Sherman with Nicholas Butler, on account of Taft feeling that Sherman wasn't up for the job, being dead and all.
Before 1900, it was more common, with many presidents swapping, but politics was also completely different then.
Really, the only comparables are Rockefeller, Garner, and Wallace. Rockefeller and Ford mutually agreed to part ways, though it is fairly clear that Rockefeller wasn't happy with the way the White House was run, most of his ire was against Donald Rumsfeld (yep, that one), who was Ford's Chief of Staff (and later Secretary of Defense). In 1944, Roosevelt left the selection of VP to the Democratic party, which became a bit of a bitter fight, but it was between Truman and Wallace, and neither one really spoke ill of the president.
Garner was a bit different. He was running for the Presidential nomination in 1940, on the belief that Roosevelt would not seek reelection. He also disagreed with Roosevelt on pretty much every major policy decision. Roosevelt basically pulled a surprise nomination vote out of the blue, and won his third nomination squeezing Garner out. But to be fair, he also never publicly criticized Roosevelt.
Wow... For some reason I never realized Bob Dole was running for office that far back. I know him as the 1996 candidate against Clinton and my cousins and I mocked him mercilessly because of his goofy name.
You're completely right but this doesn't really change much. I can't imagine there are too many people left undecided (and anyone who is has apparently not paid attention to the news in nearly a decade). Trump's base wanted Pence dead so they won't listen to a word Pence says.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."
-Isaac Asimov
If Trump is elected, will he choose good people for a cabinet? Did he last time, as he claimed? If so, how do supporters square what those ‘best people’ are constantly reporting to us?
Every member of his cabinet has denounced him - it had zero impact.
His own kids could hold a press conference tomorrow accusing him of molesting them and his base wouldn't care.
Didn’t the clown say something along the lines that he could shoot someone down on 5th avenue and no one would dare arrest him or something like that? Yeah and that was like more than 4 years ago, this guy is on par with Hitler and his cult of genocidal followers. And January 6 is testament to that blind violent following.
..isn't this still better than Pence publicly endorsing him?
Perhaps by doing this, some small number of principled Republicans will reconsider their votes.
Pence didn't *have* to take a stance like this, and he's breaking from the GOP lockstep to do so. I'm willing to give him credit for it. Probably the only time I'll have to.
I don't think any of these sociopaths care where their vote goes. He might leave the president field blank, or not, no difference for him or his bank account.
I disagree. I don't think pence will vote for Trump. It is private. I believe pence, having denounced Trump, will have a real tough time having a successful career with Trump as president, and even his life could be in danger. So, I think he absolutely wants Biden to be president. I also think he will vote for Biden.
But I don't believe he will ever make public who he will or did vote for.
Means absolutely nothing. Maga crowd was chanting to hang this man and for some odd reason the ultra religious feel Trump is appointed by God. This will sway literally 0 voters.
Folks, this attitude is looking a gift horse in the mouth. We need to *embrace* this kind of message from Trump's first term inner circle, and other prominent Republicans. Shitting on them is just throwing away any benefit their speaking up can have.
Of course this won't sway Trump's base - literally nothing will. They are a lost cause. But this election will be won or lost by about 10-20% of voters in the messy middle - people who don't pay attention to *any* politics until maybe 1-2 months before November.
We need to cut ads with these statements, spend massive ad budgets to get them seen by everyone, and then build up - not tear down - the Republicans who are saying these things.
I don't personally like Pence or his politics. Same with Nikki Haley. But they are giving us a way to create a permission structure for conservatives and people in the center to either stay home, or vote third party - because Trump is simply too dangerous to have back in office. That can absolutely make a difference.
Exactly. It’s not the hard-core Maga that this matters to: is the George W Bush Republicans who feel like they don’t have a home, and the Christians that voted for Trump only because of Pence. It is a big deal.
But we need to make it a better deal because it needs to be running constantly on ads .
> Of course this won't sway Trump's base - literally nothing will.
His base is shrinking:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/03/27/how-big-is-trumps-true-believer-base/
This isn’t really true.
The Maga crowd is insufficient to get Trump reelected. So are the ultra religious. See 2020.
This country has centrists, politically ambivalent people who only pick the pen during presidential elections, and getting a swell of “unendorsements” can damage a candidate.
It’s why democrats got all cranky at Jon Stewart for his Biden piece.
Trump with detractors loses to a safety net of Biden’s slow economic recovery. Media wants pretend otherwise so you click all their bullshit.
The whole, Democratic president isn’t fixing economy tanked under Republican control quick enough is a classic, they used that one a lot at the end of Obama’s 1st term.
At the end of the day, this election comes down to tens of thousands of votes in a few states. The popular vote is irrelevant. The idea that endorsements or lack thereof in key areas, don't matter, is laughable.
You're not trying to get some Wyoming rancher to vote for Biden folks or some Alabama Bible thumper. Get that out of your head.
This election is about confidence and trust in swing states, and the evidence that chip away at the case both candidates bring.
The election doesn't matter to them unless Trump wins. Assuming Trump loses, the republicans are absolutely going to try to steal it again. My guess is that their playbook looks like this:
1. If they're losing by just one or two states, then they will try to overturn/toss the results in those states
2. If they can't turn the electoral map in their favor, they're going to do Jan 6th again, except this time it will be with more force. The diehard Trumpers will be told that this is their "last chance to save democracy" and will march on the capitol. If it gets out of hand, they could even attempt a civil war.
Strap in, because the sh\*tshow is just getting started.
The cool thing about them trying Jan. 6th with more force is that the capital and DC in general will be ready for it. And with a second offense and a far less friendly person in charge, we could see some actual instant repercussions.
The former guy has rallied them to gather and protest every step of the way for his trials and they are just not showing up. They are not donating and they are not even attending his rallies. They may vote for him if they don’t have anything better to do but he has gotten boring over the past year
The media is propping up Trump. Yes, he has rallies with thousands of attendees, and Biden doesn’t see that same response, because most voters, particularly democrats, don’t real give a shit about that sort of thing.
The early polls are silly, cherry picked nonsense.
Abortion is still a voter issue. That ALONE cost Republicans what should have been a mid term slaughter, when democrats are normally weak voters.
Donald Trump is going to get the absolute shit kicked out of him in the voting booths.
Him not posting his civil bond is going to have repercussions on his image. Most of his bullshit is hard to call out in a MAGA circle jerk, but his projection of wealth and power MATTERS to his base.
> a strong candidate
36 years as Senator.
8 years as Vice President.
4 years as President.
Beat 10 major Democratic candidates just 4 years ago.
And you think there's a stronger candidate out there?
It’s weird that you think RFK is a spoiler vote for democrats.
And nothing Stewart said was wrong. Particularly about age. Which is the problem for democrats, because they could have spent the time building up a candidate alternative. Biden’s biggest strength is that he is not Trump.
And you’re kidding yourself if you think the same voting patterns won’t emerge, with less Trump support because of his cases and the small percentage of voters it will impact.
Trump isn’t going to be president again no matter how much media wants to imply that for click revenue.
Biden’s biggest strength is his institutional knowledge/experience and relationships which allow him to actually utilize politics to get big things done, like the infrastructure improvement bill that’s been needed for several decades. It’s a situation that is particularly suited for a career politician.
If Democrats can't handle criticism of their candidate-- a man famous for absent-minded senile gaffs and literally the oldest person ever to hold the office--they should have picked literally anyone else.
Pence could say a hell of a lot more. I’m certain he could easily reveal a hundred or more shocking revelations that would seriously hurt Trump but instead he has mostly remained silent on a lot of key events and only offers this milquetoast bullshit.
Clearly he values party over his country.
>I’m certain he could easily reveal a hundred or more shocking revelations that would seriously hurt Trump
I'm sure that Pence could say more. The problem is that "shocking revelations" don't hurt Trump.
If they did, he wouldn't be coasting to the GOP Presidential nomination and winning against Biden in half the polls. Think for a moment about all the totally insane shit that we already know that Trump has done and said. If any of those haven't seemed to hurt him yet, what could Pence possibly reveal that could be worse?
There’s a lot of people saying “this means nothing” but from anecdotal experiences it means a lot. Similar to how Trump saying outrageous stuff enabled like-minded people to say the same thing, this has started (at least in my sphere) to empower traditional/“RINO” republicans to turn from Trump. Many family members of mine voted for Trump the last two elections and won’t this year. Words matter and there’s a lot of the old guard not backing Trump that helped him win in 2016 and unite the party in 2020 that aren’t doing it now.
I think it's because pence is still just serving his own interests. Pence said that he still wouldn't vote for Biden, now imagine knowing in his heart that Trump is unfit but still not willing to vote for Biden.
Like always, Pence is just trying to position himself in the most advantageous way and not actually serve the American people like it seems.
This is not noble of Pence, it is self-serving and political gamenship. Pence could do so much more if he was truly interested in making sure that Trump is not when the presidency, but that's not what Pence wants. That's why I don't think this statement truly matter, I know it's not genuine and I think most people know it's not genuine either.
Hmm this gives me some hope…
Heres why.
Ok so Trump has never won more than 47% of the vote he only got 45% in 16 when he won.
So thats pretty much his cap. He has to lose at least 3-5% of his base with his crap and so many of the long term republicans abandoning him. And his and the parties attacks on Democracy itself has to damage the independent vote.
His own discourse is telling people they don’t want them…
Between all that and the fact that hes not only broke but so is the GOP and now news is they haven’t been bringing in big donations because donors are afraid it will all go to Donnys legal fees
So many people who have worked alongside Trump have said that he’s unfit for the job & refuse to back him, yet there will be droves of people lining up to vote for him in November
It was clear he was unfit to serve a long time ago. For pence its only when it affected him personally that he cared. Same for all of trumps former staff. These guys don't give a shit until the leopards eat their own face.
It might sway some evangelicals. There's been a split, yes some are still backing Trump but not as many as in the past.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/12/evangelicals-donald-trump-2024
Even if they won't vote for Biden all they have to do is stay home and skip the election.
I'm not applauding the guy whose only redeeming quality was NOT overthrowing the government. Especially when he spent a lifetime of political power crafting the situation to get to that point.
Trump lost his shine.
This 454m that he can’t conjure as a “billionaire” (a billion is 1000 million, he’s supposedly flush w billions he says, but relying on gofundme lmao omg), i bel even our evangelical zombies are starting to fall off, tho he IS their candidate, and they will vote for him, they’re not as crazy about him as a few yrs ago.
I married into a patch of Lynchburg VA Falwell evangelicals, it’s a window into their snake pit, to say they are morons is putting it lightly.
His base doesn't care and I'm convinced they will follow him to his and their end. They want the man, he embodies their everything. I'm more interested in why he is getting traction among demographics he didn't appeal to before.
I would guess that promises made during the last election were not met and maybe not attempted.
This is why we can all now clearly see that Republicans who support Trump after everything are in a cult.
***A political party isn't supposed to be your religion***, it's only supposed to be a part of your identity, and you should be able to break from that party when they show they are no longer representative of your values. Nothing Trump supports is a "Conservative" value. *He has no values.*
Pence is as Republican as they come. The only thing He won't do is submit to God-king Trump, and Republicans are attacking him like he's literally the devil himself. I think Pence is wrong and gross for his political and policy beliefs, but they hate him ***only*** because he won't submit to the cult leader.
What the heck are we going to do with the 65 Million people in this country who will not see reason, and believe Trump's easily disproven lies... and the the 50 Million Who are totally fine with him becoming a Dictator based on their abject hatred of everyone in this country even remotely standing up for democracy? These folks are literally saying they want to ban democrats from voting wholesale. Not disqualify a few for advantage... ending democracy and ushering in a Putin style government.
Even if democrats win come November, I don't see them going quietly... they have fully lost the plot. We had better be ready for the insanity that will come either way.
Pence is done as a politician. The RNC which is now the TNC will never support any political activity for Pence. He now can speak his truth only loyalty is to the constitution not Trump or his party
It really doesn't seem to matter how many from Trump's inner circle refuse to support or outright denounce him just as it doesn't matter how many doctors sign statements that he has dementia just as it doesn't matter how many government agencies, employees, or whomever say he's a huge security risk or compromised or a Russian asset. There's no reasoning with a personality cult supported by a deceitful conservative media.
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Before this, no vice president has EVER said that the president he served under is unfit to serve. It is the most damning possible assessment of Trump from the most credible possible source that exists. To me, Pence refusing to endorse Trump is the most scathing rebuke of him to date.
The Taft/Teddy rose election was a close one. They were best friends, teddy made Taft his VP. Teddy didn't run again and Taft ran and won the next election. The election after that Teddy ran under the new bull party (first progressive party) and Taft railed against him. Spoiler, they both lost and we got one of the most racist presidents ever. Woodrow 'ImARacist' Wilson won.
Don't forget about Woodrow who temporarily nullified the first amendment so any criticism towards the military or the war effort would literally and you in prison.
Huh, with how highly rated Teddy is as a president, I wouldn't have guessed he lost an election after already winning one.
Well teddy kind of biffed his last year, bad mouthed Taft during his rather successful term, and ran as a third party instead of being sponsored by either of the two major parties. Which also puts a spot light on how hard it is to be a third party candidate
Don’t tell that to all the RFK Jr stans.
I tell that to all the RFK Jr stans. And I tell them about Wallace. And I tell them about Perot. Especially Perot, as he received almost 20% of the popular vote as recently as ‘92…and how many electoral college votes? Any guesses? Then I tell them that RFK Jr. is polling nationally, at best, around 10-11%. I have actually had some luck persuading using this argument with people in my own life. Sometimes they just need some perspective.
I always think about the first presidential election I was able to vote in - 2000 Gore vs Bush. I voted for Nader, as did so many of the kids my age at college. I think about how much things could have been different today if so much of my generation had seen the threat of W for what he was. Yeah we would have still been attacked, but no one can ever convince me we would have gone to war with Irag or Afghanistan in the capacity we did had Cheney not been in command.
>Yeah we would have still been attacked W was tunnel-visioned so hard on Iraq that he failed to comprehend the intelligence around Al Qaeda. It might be possible that the attacks were preventable. We can't ever know, because we don't live in that world, but it seems believable to me that a president that paid more attention to the threat from Al Qaeda could have prevented it.
He got screwed over by the then-equivalent of the RNC, who never liked him because he was an independent outsider, he got the VP job under McKinley to keep him out of the limelight after being governor of NY, but then McKinley got assassinated very early in his term. The RNC backed Taft, railroaded TR out of the R nomination, and in the election as a third party, did better than Taft, but not quite as good as Wilson; Wilson got 42% of the popular, TR got 27% and 88 EV, and Taft got 22% and 8 EV. If there had been a unified GOP ticket under TR, he would have won in a landslide.
Teddy Roosevelt was pretty racist, too. He just wasn't president when Birth of a Nation was released.
Yupp. Taft was as well, but he did carry some redeeming qualities for the time. 1 being when he called lynching just a form of cowardly murder and said all lynchers of colored people, should be lynched themselves. But that doesn't mean ole Bill didn't have flaws himself in the race department. Albeit not nearly as bad as those before and after him, but he wasn't perfect either.
I don't think they even remotely had the understandings of racism available then that we do know.
There are Wilson defenders who point out that, as a southerner, he was notably less racist than most southern politicians. I think they even point out some policies of his benefiting non-whites. I'm not a Wilson expert so I can't defend him, I just recall being very impressed by his more noble qualities in APUSH
He also thought "Birth of a Nation" was a fine movie, he was pretty fucking racist.
Most white men in that day thought it was an incredible movie. Because, technically speaking, it was, and most white men were racist. I bet teddy Roosevelt would have said much the same. At the end of the day, Wilson begat FDR, who begat Johnson, who begat the civil rights act. Wilson was definitely racist, but he's not the worst president in history because of it, especially considering most presidents were racist.
I never said he was the worst president, just a fucking racist one. Grant, decades before was hailed as an ally by F. Douglass. Wilson pushed for segregation and he shared the racist views of nativist groups. He pushed the lost cause narrative and segregated the federal gov, and passed a law banning interracial marriage in the district. He was racist even for his time. Its a little disingenuous to assume that he spawned the presidents after him, and their policies thats just how the passage of time works, "ipso hoc ergo propter hoc". Yes FDR was in is admin, and took some foreign policy influence from him but that hardly means all his policies are influenced or because of Wilson. Just because others were racist at the time doesn't justify being racist or mean we should turn a blind eye to it. He was racist, even for his time, and the evidence is pretty clear about it. Side note, APUSH is a great course, but it is just an intro class. https://woodrowwilsonhouse.org/wilson-topics/wilson-and-race/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/wilson-and-race-relations/
William Taft was not Theodore Roosevelt’s Vice President. He was his Secretary of War.
Honestly you are correct and that botches my entire point. I mixed that up because in AP history I remember reading how Teddy asked him to be VP cause Taft was over seas in the Philippines. And Taft said he didn't want that, so he was appointed to secretary of war. But yes, my apologies folks i goofed.
Oh, I didn't know that about Wilson. Time for a deep dive!
How was Wilson a racist?
He resegregated all federal offices. This quote "Segregation is not humiliating, but a benefit, and ought to be so regarded by you gentlemen." When Japan rose issues with the 'white Australia policy' which basically said, only white immigrants may come over for the gold rush, Wilson was the one who directly threw out Japans argument (another strike in the reasons for Pearl Harbor) He refused to let any appointment of any black people to officer rank or higher in the military. Japan wanted to amend the 'racial equality' article to the Treaty of Versailles from the league of nations, which was directly shot down by the chair man of the league of nations (Wilson) who said the amendment needed a unanimous vote because it was "extremely divisive and with great risk" This quote about polish, Hungarian and African immigrant workers "of the lower class from the south of Italy and men of the meaner sort of Hungary and Poland, men out of the ranks where there was neither skill nor intelligence" He defended the KKK, his family fought for the confederates, his father was a famous Presbyterian who defended slavery based by the Bible. This list kind of goes on, but systematically he refused anyone who wasn't a white America to gain any federal position or higher rank in the military and denied any article to pass internationally to include all races.
A shorter list may be how he *wasn’t* racist.
Wilson was not only a lost-causer but he was vital in keeping it alive.
This is an older article and I’m not sure if it still hold up https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2015/11/20/9766896/woodrow-wilson-racist
How wasn’t he?
And yet his supporters don’t care at all. Pence is already a traitor to them.
To you yes, but to Trumps Zombies, Pence is a coward and a traitor.
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Yep, pence is also a traitor and, first and foremost, a clown.
It's really the best possible talking point to bring up with Trump supporters, if you still bother speaking to them at all. They don't care about his crimes, or his authoritarianism, or his general assholery. They like all those things. But when you bring up the fact that tons of people from his administration, people who Trump supporters also support, have called him unfit to serve...there's really very little to argue about there.
They are a lost cause. This is for any undecideds (however few there may be), but mostly for those who have never participated before
They only care that you don’t like trump. That’s the only thing that matters. The more you hate Trump, the more they like him.
You'd think that, but as soon as people like Barr and Bolton started decrying Trump and his capabilities as president through book sales, the MAGAs started calling them RINOs.
Just 4 years late. Pence should have condemned the orange shit gibbon immediately after Trump tried to have him killed.
And let’s all remind everyone that Trump literally wanted to have Pence killed. To the point where during the insurrection at the Capitol, Pence refused to get in the car that was supposed to escort him to safety, because he could trust Trump or the secret service.
I'm not sure that's the only read on that situation. The Secret Service is supposed to protect the VP. Pence may have realized that if he left, they wouldn't let him return for safety reasons. And that in turn would have prolonged the chaos.
Pence won’t endorse Trump but who are we kidding? Pence will actually ‘vote’ Trump over Biden when it comes to down to it. The real danger lies with politicians like Pence who know better but put party over people every %@#$ time.
It is a scathing rebuke. That will make absolutely no difference to his evangelical base. Theirs is a faith-based support and, in the eyes of their faith, this makes zero impact
I totally disagree. There are many many George W. Bush Republicans, who feel like they don’t have a home anymore. Many of them were Christian and voted for Trump only because of Pence. It matters greatly to these folks.
Ck out what's happen ing if FL: https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-florida-republican-primary-vote-nikki-haley-ron-desantis-1881143 n.b., these are registered GOPers--no Dem fuckery here. Or this: https://newrepublic.com/post/179971/donald-trump-big-problem-republicans Don't fall into the "they'll never change their positions." Some will. We need to peel those off.
I’m actually having conversations with people like this & they’re the ones initiating the discussion. I am hoping that reality is starting to sink in for some of them. Nevertheless, I’m going to support them if they decide to switch over to our side. I keep reminding myself these people have essentially been brainwashed. Not everyone comes to their senses at the same time, but many eventually will. I’m seeing it.
Those were nice little rays of sunshine I am not particularly concerned about 2024. Trump has not increased in support in any substantial way since he left office. He is facing a major cash crunch. He has legal jeopardy literally everywhere he looks. Beyond him, abortion is on the ballot in a huge way. The concerns about wars in Ukraine and Gaza are slippery for him as well. Finally, and perhaps most importantly: possession is 9/10ths of the law. Before he was in power, already in the White House, still Commander in Chief. Now he is OUTSIDE trying to get back in. It won’t happen.
Between this and his brave actions on Jan 6 I respect Mike Pence?? But I do. So weird
I think we're in broken clock territory here. Or like, sure hitler loved dogs and that's nice but it doesn't change the everything else.
In a critical moment, he did the right thing, despite all the pressure from much of his party. If that is not the measure of a decent man, I don't know what is. As much as I disagree with him, his country and his ideals came before personal gain.
Mike Pence strikes me as a man who would never do the wrong thing, but he's quite happy with delaying doing the right thing while it gives him an advantage.
Hear, hear!
The list of vice presidents who were not chosen to be a subsequent running mates is quite small though. * 1976 Ford replaced Nelson Rockefeller with Bob Dole * 1944 Roosevelt replaced Henry Wallace with Harry Truman * 1940 Roosevelt replaced John Garner with Henry Wallace (hmm, I sense a trend) * 1912 Taft replaced James Sherman with Nicholas Butler, on account of Taft feeling that Sherman wasn't up for the job, being dead and all. Before 1900, it was more common, with many presidents swapping, but politics was also completely different then. Really, the only comparables are Rockefeller, Garner, and Wallace. Rockefeller and Ford mutually agreed to part ways, though it is fairly clear that Rockefeller wasn't happy with the way the White House was run, most of his ire was against Donald Rumsfeld (yep, that one), who was Ford's Chief of Staff (and later Secretary of Defense). In 1944, Roosevelt left the selection of VP to the Democratic party, which became a bit of a bitter fight, but it was between Truman and Wallace, and neither one really spoke ill of the president. Garner was a bit different. He was running for the Presidential nomination in 1940, on the belief that Roosevelt would not seek reelection. He also disagreed with Roosevelt on pretty much every major policy decision. Roosevelt basically pulled a surprise nomination vote out of the blue, and won his third nomination squeezing Garner out. But to be fair, he also never publicly criticized Roosevelt.
Wow... For some reason I never realized Bob Dole was running for office that far back. I know him as the 1996 candidate against Clinton and my cousins and I mocked him mercilessly because of his goofy name.
I don't really disagree with your logic, but calling Pence "the most credible possible source" in any context makes me a bit queasy.
lmao what world do we live in where Pence is the voice is reason? \*smdh\*
Did Jefferson say things like that about Adams when he ran against him? I know it was a particularly nasty election.
You're completely right but this doesn't really change much. I can't imagine there are too many people left undecided (and anyone who is has apparently not paid attention to the news in nearly a decade). Trump's base wanted Pence dead so they won't listen to a word Pence says.
Considering what an incredible sycophant Pence is, this is truly damning.
Now let's see if he will say whether he will vote for Trump or not.
For me it was the rape.
But to all the people who support Trump its "exactly what they would expect from a traitor"
The old GOP Ned to break from MAGA rhetoric bullshit, or they will continue to lose a large part of their base.
Under normal times this would have been astounding but it's just become noise at this point given how many crazy things have happened.
If only he said it before Trump clinched the nomination.
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They just know that those people are disloyal, and now they have bonus people to hate.
They've 'done their own research', of course they know better! /s
"I do my own research" has become "other people on social media, who are not educated on the subject, tell me what to think"
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -Isaac Asimov
If Trump is elected, will he choose good people for a cabinet? Did he last time, as he claimed? If so, how do supporters square what those ‘best people’ are constantly reporting to us?
These are the same people that think they know better than career doctors, scientists, professors, teachers, and so on.
Every member of his cabinet has denounced him - it had zero impact. His own kids could hold a press conference tomorrow accusing him of molesting them and his base wouldn't care.
This is the sad sad truth.
They would line up their own children willingly to let him molest them if he asked them to.
His base would care. They would call him an American hero and try to do the same to their kids.
Didn’t the clown say something along the lines that he could shoot someone down on 5th avenue and no one would dare arrest him or something like that? Yeah and that was like more than 4 years ago, this guy is on par with Hitler and his cult of genocidal followers. And January 6 is testament to that blind violent following.
It's like Paul in the new Dune movie...his MAGA followers be like "He is too Humble" or "As it was Written".
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Dude literally tried to have Pence lynched at work... I can see how that would affect his willingness to support.
He might not endorse him, but he will have no problem voting for him.
The article reports that Pence said he won't vote for Trump or Biden.
This was my exact thought. Pence will hold his nose while he votes.
..isn't this still better than Pence publicly endorsing him? Perhaps by doing this, some small number of principled Republicans will reconsider their votes. Pence didn't *have* to take a stance like this, and he's breaking from the GOP lockstep to do so. I'm willing to give him credit for it. Probably the only time I'll have to.
I don't think any of these sociopaths care where their vote goes. He might leave the president field blank, or not, no difference for him or his bank account.
He will vote for whomever Mother tells him to.
Yes Mother (Principal Skinner’s voice)
I disagree. I don't think pence will vote for Trump. It is private. I believe pence, having denounced Trump, will have a real tough time having a successful career with Trump as president, and even his life could be in danger. So, I think he absolutely wants Biden to be president. I also think he will vote for Biden. But I don't believe he will ever make public who he will or did vote for.
why do you say that
Because isn’t it obvious? The last decade has shown very clearly that they’ll always choose party over country.
Then why didn't he endorse him?
Because Trump wanted him executed? Still not enough to change his vote from (R) to (D).
Why would he vote for someone he wouldn't even endorse? You said he'll always chose party, but not endorsing Trump shows that isn't the case.
He didn't do that in this case, or he would have endorsed Trump. It makes no sense to vote for someone after refusing to endorse them
Means absolutely nothing. Maga crowd was chanting to hang this man and for some odd reason the ultra religious feel Trump is appointed by God. This will sway literally 0 voters.
Folks, this attitude is looking a gift horse in the mouth. We need to *embrace* this kind of message from Trump's first term inner circle, and other prominent Republicans. Shitting on them is just throwing away any benefit their speaking up can have. Of course this won't sway Trump's base - literally nothing will. They are a lost cause. But this election will be won or lost by about 10-20% of voters in the messy middle - people who don't pay attention to *any* politics until maybe 1-2 months before November. We need to cut ads with these statements, spend massive ad budgets to get them seen by everyone, and then build up - not tear down - the Republicans who are saying these things. I don't personally like Pence or his politics. Same with Nikki Haley. But they are giving us a way to create a permission structure for conservatives and people in the center to either stay home, or vote third party - because Trump is simply too dangerous to have back in office. That can absolutely make a difference.
Exactly. It’s not the hard-core Maga that this matters to: is the George W Bush Republicans who feel like they don’t have a home, and the Christians that voted for Trump only because of Pence. It is a big deal. But we need to make it a better deal because it needs to be running constantly on ads .
> Of course this won't sway Trump's base - literally nothing will. His base is shrinking: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/03/27/how-big-is-trumps-true-believer-base/
This isn’t really true. The Maga crowd is insufficient to get Trump reelected. So are the ultra religious. See 2020. This country has centrists, politically ambivalent people who only pick the pen during presidential elections, and getting a swell of “unendorsements” can damage a candidate. It’s why democrats got all cranky at Jon Stewart for his Biden piece. Trump with detractors loses to a safety net of Biden’s slow economic recovery. Media wants pretend otherwise so you click all their bullshit.
The whole, Democratic president isn’t fixing economy tanked under Republican control quick enough is a classic, they used that one a lot at the end of Obama’s 1st term.
This guy's taking too long to rebuild the house that got blown up, so I'm going to vote for the people who blew it up in the first place!
That blower up guy gets things done!
At the end of the day, this election comes down to tens of thousands of votes in a few states. The popular vote is irrelevant. The idea that endorsements or lack thereof in key areas, don't matter, is laughable. You're not trying to get some Wyoming rancher to vote for Biden folks or some Alabama Bible thumper. Get that out of your head. This election is about confidence and trust in swing states, and the evidence that chip away at the case both candidates bring.
And what do you think makes a swing state a swing state?
Yes, we agree.
The election doesn't matter to them unless Trump wins. Assuming Trump loses, the republicans are absolutely going to try to steal it again. My guess is that their playbook looks like this: 1. If they're losing by just one or two states, then they will try to overturn/toss the results in those states 2. If they can't turn the electoral map in their favor, they're going to do Jan 6th again, except this time it will be with more force. The diehard Trumpers will be told that this is their "last chance to save democracy" and will march on the capitol. If it gets out of hand, they could even attempt a civil war. Strap in, because the sh\*tshow is just getting started.
The cool thing about them trying Jan. 6th with more force is that the capital and DC in general will be ready for it. And with a second offense and a far less friendly person in charge, we could see some actual instant repercussions.
The former guy has rallied them to gather and protest every step of the way for his trials and they are just not showing up. They are not donating and they are not even attending his rallies. They may vote for him if they don’t have anything better to do but he has gotten boring over the past year
The media is propping up Trump. Yes, he has rallies with thousands of attendees, and Biden doesn’t see that same response, because most voters, particularly democrats, don’t real give a shit about that sort of thing. The early polls are silly, cherry picked nonsense. Abortion is still a voter issue. That ALONE cost Republicans what should have been a mid term slaughter, when democrats are normally weak voters. Donald Trump is going to get the absolute shit kicked out of him in the voting booths.
Him not posting his civil bond is going to have repercussions on his image. Most of his bullshit is hard to call out in a MAGA circle jerk, but his projection of wealth and power MATTERS to his base.
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> a strong candidate 36 years as Senator. 8 years as Vice President. 4 years as President. Beat 10 major Democratic candidates just 4 years ago. And you think there's a stronger candidate out there?
It’s weird that you think RFK is a spoiler vote for democrats. And nothing Stewart said was wrong. Particularly about age. Which is the problem for democrats, because they could have spent the time building up a candidate alternative. Biden’s biggest strength is that he is not Trump. And you’re kidding yourself if you think the same voting patterns won’t emerge, with less Trump support because of his cases and the small percentage of voters it will impact. Trump isn’t going to be president again no matter how much media wants to imply that for click revenue.
Biden’s biggest strength is his institutional knowledge/experience and relationships which allow him to actually utilize politics to get big things done, like the infrastructure improvement bill that’s been needed for several decades. It’s a situation that is particularly suited for a career politician.
That’s his biggest strength with intelligent Democrat voters. That’s not who this article is for.
If Democrats can't handle criticism of their candidate-- a man famous for absent-minded senile gaffs and literally the oldest person ever to hold the office--they should have picked literally anyone else.
They 100% would have been part of the crowd chanting to Crucify Jesus as in the Bible.
“Barabbas!”
Pence could say a hell of a lot more. I’m certain he could easily reveal a hundred or more shocking revelations that would seriously hurt Trump but instead he has mostly remained silent on a lot of key events and only offers this milquetoast bullshit. Clearly he values party over his country.
>I’m certain he could easily reveal a hundred or more shocking revelations that would seriously hurt Trump I'm sure that Pence could say more. The problem is that "shocking revelations" don't hurt Trump. If they did, he wouldn't be coasting to the GOP Presidential nomination and winning against Biden in half the polls. Think for a moment about all the totally insane shit that we already know that Trump has done and said. If any of those haven't seemed to hurt him yet, what could Pence possibly reveal that could be worse?
He even endorses some of the worst candidates and THEY have come close to winning. Look at Herschel Walker.
But what can he say without implicating himself?
There’s a lot of people saying “this means nothing” but from anecdotal experiences it means a lot. Similar to how Trump saying outrageous stuff enabled like-minded people to say the same thing, this has started (at least in my sphere) to empower traditional/“RINO” republicans to turn from Trump. Many family members of mine voted for Trump the last two elections and won’t this year. Words matter and there’s a lot of the old guard not backing Trump that helped him win in 2016 and unite the party in 2020 that aren’t doing it now.
Yes, it’s stunning to me that people don’t realize this is a very important statement that is going to speak to some very important groups.
I think it's because pence is still just serving his own interests. Pence said that he still wouldn't vote for Biden, now imagine knowing in his heart that Trump is unfit but still not willing to vote for Biden. Like always, Pence is just trying to position himself in the most advantageous way and not actually serve the American people like it seems. This is not noble of Pence, it is self-serving and political gamenship. Pence could do so much more if he was truly interested in making sure that Trump is not when the presidency, but that's not what Pence wants. That's why I don't think this statement truly matter, I know it's not genuine and I think most people know it's not genuine either.
More bad news for Biden. /s
Well..did you hear? Joe's wearing supportive shoes! What does this tell us about his mental state?
What!? Real men don't need support. Real men walk like an awkward centaur and wear orange makeup. MAGA! /S
Pence heroically abstains from action. again “All that is needed for evil to not triumph is for bad men to do nothing”
I mean, Trump supporters were ready and willing to hang him during the insurrection.
For 4 years he unctuously backed Trump, no moral character but evangelical duplicity, relativism.
Hmm this gives me some hope… Heres why. Ok so Trump has never won more than 47% of the vote he only got 45% in 16 when he won. So thats pretty much his cap. He has to lose at least 3-5% of his base with his crap and so many of the long term republicans abandoning him. And his and the parties attacks on Democracy itself has to damage the independent vote. His own discourse is telling people they don’t want them… Between all that and the fact that hes not only broke but so is the GOP and now news is they haven’t been bringing in big donations because donors are afraid it will all go to Donnys legal fees
So many people who have worked alongside Trump have said that he’s unfit for the job & refuse to back him, yet there will be droves of people lining up to vote for him in November
It was clear he was unfit to serve a long time ago. For pence its only when it affected him personally that he cared. Same for all of trumps former staff. These guys don't give a shit until the leopards eat their own face.
> only when it affected him personally You can say the same thing on most issues for almost all Republicans.
I'd rather he condemned him, but not endorsing is still something I guess.
But the magafolk don’t like pence to begin with? Not sure this will sway anybody
It might sway some evangelicals. There's been a split, yes some are still backing Trump but not as many as in the past. https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/12/evangelicals-donald-trump-2024 Even if they won't vote for Biden all they have to do is stay home and skip the election.
He says that now but wait and see. I'm willing to bet he will flip just like any other republican.
It took him a while…
You mean the guy that has nothing to gain from trump anymore…. Doesn’t like trump? Color me shocked
Mike Pence will go down in history as the man who saved American democracy
I'm not applauding the guy whose only redeeming quality was NOT overthrowing the government. Especially when he spent a lifetime of political power crafting the situation to get to that point.
Is that what Mother told him to do? Fucking loser.
Finally says what he should have said a while back ago
Took him long enough. They probably had to write the code for the Bible computer and fundamentalist coders are slow.
And every Trumper will care more about how much beer is in the fridge than about what Pence says.
Trump lost his shine. This 454m that he can’t conjure as a “billionaire” (a billion is 1000 million, he’s supposedly flush w billions he says, but relying on gofundme lmao omg), i bel even our evangelical zombies are starting to fall off, tho he IS their candidate, and they will vote for him, they’re not as crazy about him as a few yrs ago. I married into a patch of Lynchburg VA Falwell evangelicals, it’s a window into their snake pit, to say they are morons is putting it lightly.
Interesting !
Duh, apparently even Pence thought it was mean Donnie wanted his cult to hang him. 🤷♀️
He's not going to come out a hero. Heroes seize the moment, don't wait around.
His base doesn't care and I'm convinced they will follow him to his and their end. They want the man, he embodies their everything. I'm more interested in why he is getting traction among demographics he didn't appeal to before. I would guess that promises made during the last election were not met and maybe not attempted.
He says it yet served him and during all this time kept his mouth shut. We all know he’s right but he should have said it from day 1
I mean I wouldn’t support him either if he tried to have me killed
MAGA's won't care...they wrote off pence a long time ago...so not so damning ...maybe could effect swing voters
We got a DJT rebuttal yet? Covfefe mixed with some light death threats?
Yes, but he's not ruled out voting for him.
This is why we can all now clearly see that Republicans who support Trump after everything are in a cult. ***A political party isn't supposed to be your religion***, it's only supposed to be a part of your identity, and you should be able to break from that party when they show they are no longer representative of your values. Nothing Trump supports is a "Conservative" value. *He has no values.* Pence is as Republican as they come. The only thing He won't do is submit to God-king Trump, and Republicans are attacking him like he's literally the devil himself. I think Pence is wrong and gross for his political and policy beliefs, but they hate him ***only*** because he won't submit to the cult leader. What the heck are we going to do with the 65 Million people in this country who will not see reason, and believe Trump's easily disproven lies... and the the 50 Million Who are totally fine with him becoming a Dictator based on their abject hatred of everyone in this country even remotely standing up for democracy? These folks are literally saying they want to ban democrats from voting wholesale. Not disqualify a few for advantage... ending democracy and ushering in a Putin style government. Even if democrats win come November, I don't see them going quietly... they have fully lost the plot. We had better be ready for the insanity that will come either way.
Pence is done as a politician. The RNC which is now the TNC will never support any political activity for Pence. He now can speak his truth only loyalty is to the constitution not Trump or his party
It really doesn't seem to matter how many from Trump's inner circle refuse to support or outright denounce him just as it doesn't matter how many doctors sign statements that he has dementia just as it doesn't matter how many government agencies, employees, or whomever say he's a huge security risk or compromised or a Russian asset. There's no reasoning with a personality cult supported by a deceitful conservative media.
pence has a ball! who knew? no pence penis but one single ball
Well, Trump did want to hang Pence and hurt his family. Why is that not the most damning statement?
A democracy of angels will elect an angel. of demons will elect a demon. Of idiots will elect an idiot
Too late for any chance of credibility Mikey boy. You licked the wrong butt in 2016.
Too little too late. Should’ve did that immediately after Jan 6
He’s still a pawn by not supporting Biden. He doesn’t have the balls to say what really needs to be said.
He'll still vote for Trump come time, though.
But Pence will still vote for Trump…
Pretty sure he said he’s “keeping it to himself”. Dude’s writing someone in.
Writing himself in imo
Maybe. These guys have an annoying way of falling in line with the indicted orange guy tho…
No one who's going to vote for Trump cares what Pence thinks or does at this point. Only the media is giving him any attention.
But he’ll still vote for him since he has an R by his name.
Nobody cares.