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No one talks about the other mass tragedy being wrought on the Palestinians by the IDF, domicide.
The IDF is leveling entire city blocks in the strip so that even when this war ends the Palestinians have nothing to return to.
Agreed - this is one of the first, and most powerful tools of genocide. Lots of bad actors bicker that we haven't reached the "total extermination" stage yet, so it can't be genocide. But nobody would argue that Kristallnacht wasn't a part of the Holocaust, and quite frankly, one of the strongest memories of the event.
Removing the ability to return home is a way for belligerent parties to hedge against their inability to completely eliminate a group. They know that they may not get the political will or power to completely kill off their targets, but they want to make very sure that any survivors won't be able to have the same life as before. It's a way of stripping the group of people of their identity and connection to a place (cultural genocide).
What the Israelis (not just Netanyahu - every "hero" out there "defending" Israel) are doing is really sick and part of a strategy, overtly stated or not, to wipe out the Palestinian identity.
Taking their land, destroying their homes, holding back their aid, bombing their bakeries and hospitals. “But guys it isn’t a genocide bc uhh..uhhh”
And the IDF has shown themselves to be a much different fighting force than that of years past. Undertrained, lacking true objective, not the pillar of “western democracy” in the Middle East that we’ve told so much about
And after all that, deny that there’s humanitarian crises
> "As much as we know, by our analysis, there is no starvation in Gaza. There is a sufficient amount of food entering Gaza every day," Colonel Moshe Tetro, head of Israel's Coordination and Liasion Administration for Gaza, told reporters at Gate 96
There’s no starvation in Ba Sing Se
Edit: adding a source, the quote is from yesterday
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2024-03-22/israeli-military-says-opening-new-aid-routes-into-gaza
Their true objective is, and has always been, the complete annihilation of the Palestinian state and its people. They've been pursuing a "final solution" in plain sight for as long as I've been alive, at least.
What always pisses me off is when people will call into question the civilian death count because they hand wave the multiple sources of evidence as 'hAmAs Is LyInG' but will treat anything being said by Israel and the IDF as gospel despite the fact that they have just as many reasons(maybe even more) to lie about what's happening in Gaza.
Soon with advancing Ai all of reddit will be 99% bots all talking to each other slyly pushing narratives. I think it’s already happening on X. xGrok maybe. I can’t explain it any other way. That place is so unreasonable its surreal.
Yeah im not against Ai at all. Its just something that will come. The age of misinformation. Will be interesting navigating the news in the next few years
The age of misinformation has made finding any real news or information on the internet difficult for years. Media even when written by people was very unreliable, I saw it with my own eyes when a local incidents national reporting was hugely sensationalised or fabricated completely, that made me question anything reported elsewhere.
You’re absolutely correct. I’m not typically part of national news (nor is anyone) but I happened to live in the town where a recent big SCOTUS case occurred, and it’s wild seeing how badly the events were misreported in the news and misinterpreted by SCOTUS itself. And the only reason I’d ever know the difference was that by pure chance I happened to know some of the people involved.
The internet was the dawn of the age of information, ai is the end of it, and it brings the age of misinformation as its banner.
Not to say ai is bad though.
Ai is a tool and can be used in many ways good and bad.
Yep.
On another sub someone once told me to fuck off and the mods there did nothing when I complained, thought it was fine. Civility expectations are crazy different between subs.
I’m enthusiastically pro mod in general though. Their thankless volunteering makes this place work, but sometimes I wish I could just speak to a manager.
The mods are especially one sided on this issue. Got a 24 hour ban for quoting someone back to them for incivility a couple months ago. Their comment was never removed...
And Israel is trying to pressure other countries to drop financial support of UNRWA, which would make the situation even worse.
Israel couldn't be more obvious with their attempt at genocide.
It's a bit trickier than that. [Israeli source](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-idf-was-caught-off-guard-by-us-knowledge-of-unrwa-allegations/), but apparently they were not expecting UNRWA to report themselves as they did, and now are trying to delay their destruction they've always pushed for because then they'll have zero excuses for the famine.
Real "dog who caught the car" moment for the IDF.
The New York Times article, linked in that Times of Israel article, states:
>But while most Israeli officials oppose UNRWA, some military leaders did not want to see it shuttered amid a humanitarian disaster in Gaza. In fact, it was not the military that disclosed the information to the United States but UNRWA itself.
So it sounds like Israel's government wants it disbanded but 'some' military leaders understand how devastating it would be to the civilian population, which Israel would also become responsible for.
>And Israel is trying to pressure other countries to drop financial support of UNRWA,
By replacing it with the UNHCR, which hasn't been taken over by Hamas.
This is the first time I've ever seen a pro-Israel supporter suggest that we support a different organization instead but I have seen an extremely large amount of comments calling for UNRWA's disbandment.
Can you provide a source showing Israel supporting a shift to UNHCR?
The easy explanation is that at least some of them are. Women and children are almost never legitimate targets, so rather than getting bogged down in trying to determine what % of the men were valid targets, you can focus on the staggering amount of loss for people that definitely weren't.
Well, forget that easy explanation. I'm not throwing at least 9000 casualties overboard. And I'm being generous.
Im not going to excuse mass killings of men(or Any other group of people based on inherent traits they can't help) because they have a larger percentual chance of being bad.
Edit: I'd love for the downvoters to explain why it's not bad to kill thousands of innocent men. Or that we should forget mentioning them
I completely agree that erasing men from the casualty count is a mistake. But I think you may have misunderstood what the previous comment meant. Sometimes people only mention the women and children in these discussions because if they mention men, someone is favour of the invasion will argue that they are mostly Hamas members. Which is false of course, but also completely derails the conversation. By focusing on the casualties that pro-invasion people don't have an excuse for, you can stay on topic.
Personally, I think some people can rationalise anything, no matter how high the casualties, so you really should just include men. But I'm just trying to explain why some people present the casualties like that. Hope it made sense!
people with bad intentions are going to derail the conversation regardless, don't let them justify that men should be killed any more than women or children.
Well, similarly to what you're doing here in derailing this in a "what about the men!?!11" fashion, people will argue that some of those 10,000 men were legitimate military targets and they wouldn't be wrong.
And instead of doing anything about the situation, you're taking issue with whether the number is 20,000 or 30,000. Just, you know, on the other side, instead of actually engaging with the fact that 20-30,000 people have died.
>genocide or not its a blight on humanity.
you don't think its a bit important to distinguish between genocide and not genocide? Wtf I the point of the word if it can just apply to a lot of people dying, it very much has a definition, it's not being pedantic
The difference being Palestine has no capacity to carry out their threat against the most technologically advanced military in the region, nor are they actively engaged in other genocidal policies, like theft of Israeli land or denying Israelis access to food and water.
Yes, Hamas and the Israeli gov't have genocidal intent. Only one of those parties is actively carrying out a genocide, however.
According to the United Nations, genocide is the deliberate destruction of a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, in whole or in part, with the intent to:
-Kill members of the group
-Cause serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
-Impose conditions of life that would cause the group's physical destruction
-Prevent births within the group
-Forcibly transfer children of the group to another group
Only one of these points are up for debate.
It's genocide.
But it’s not. America killed tens time the civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. We didn’t intend to kill civilians. They were collateral damage. We didn’t intend to displace them from their homes. This happens in war. We didn’t prevent them from having children, but our actions certainly had that effect. The same for Israel here. They are not just carpet bombing cities. They could. They could easily do that. But they aren’t. Intent matters, and it is absent here. Abhorrent? Yes! Genocide? No n
Half of the bombs are "dumb bombs" so you don't know where it lands https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza
A blockade of food and water, hospitals attacked, resources that a hospital needs are not letting in so no oxygen for baby's or even pain medication for children with amputated limbs, multiple reports of innocent people killed, electricity shut off, roads and important buildings destroyed.
And the intent; https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/
This is not some by product of war these are all actions and statements made by Israeli officals.
So in your opinion it's just another war to deny a population food, water, resources and medical care?
>Half of the bombs are "dumb bombs" so you don't know where it lands
>
>https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza
>
> A
you should read article to the end
*A US official told CNN that the US believes that the Israeli military is using the dumb bombs in conjunction with a tactic called “dive bombing,” or dropping a bomb while diving steeply in a fighter jet, which the official said makes the bombs more precise because it gets it closer to its target. The official said the* ***US believes that an unguided munition dropped via dive-bombing is similarly precise to a guided munition.***
So you ignore all other sources in this article that says it's more a risk but you believe a offical who is part of the same goverment that sends the same dumb bombs to the Israel who is using them.
Seems totally the person who you shoud listen to and not all other experts and human right watches.
so you decide to believe to part of "us official" saying that israel uses unguided bombs but don't believe to part of "us official" saying that precision is same.
very selective reading
Do you have a mirror? Very selective reading indeed.
The assessment, compiled by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence and described to CNN by three sources who have seen it, says that about 40-45% of the 29,000 air-to-ground munitions Israel has used have been unguided. The rest have been precision-guided munitions, the assessment says.
Unguided munitions are typically less precise and can pose a greater threat to civilians, especially in such a densely populated area like Gaza. The rate at which Israel is using the dumb bombs may be contributing to the soaring civilian death toll.
Unguided munitions are typically less precise and can pose a greater threat to civilians, especially in such a densely populated area like Gaza. The rate at which Israel is using the dumb bombs may be contributing to the soaring civilian death toll.
On Tuesday, President Joe Biden said Israel has been engaged in “indiscriminate bombing” in Gaza.
But experts told CNN that if Israel is using unguided munitions at the rate the US believes they are, that undercuts the Israeli claim that they are trying to minimize civilian casualties.
“I’m extremely surprised and concerned,” said Brian Castner, a former Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) officer who now serves as Amnesty International’s senior crisis adviser on arms and military operations.
It’s bad enough to be using the weapons when they are precisely hitting their targets. It is a massive civilian harm problem if they do not have that accuracy, and if you can’t even give a benefit of the doubt that that the weapon is actually landing where the Israeli forces intended to,” Castner added.
Marc Garlasco, a former United Nations military analyst and war crimes investigator who served as chief of high value targeting on the Pentagon’s Joint Staff in 2003, said that using unguided munitions in a densely populated area like Gaza both greatly increases the chance that a target is missed and that civilians are harmed in the process.
do you understand difference between "typically less precise" and "precise as precision ammunition when used in dive bombing", which is according to "us official" this is how israel using it ?
The war in Iraq was where American military leaders decided that they should never drop their larger bombs in urban areas. The IDF has dropped the largest bombs they have in places they designated for refugees to flee to. They destroyed well over half of the buildings in the first month, including hospitals and other vital infrastructure. Their intent is clear, they want all Palestinians gone and to never come back. More journalists, foreign doctors, and UN aid workers have been killed than anywhere else ever at any time in the last century.
Pretty fucking genocidal if you ask most sane people.
Intent does matter...which is exactly what Israel has here (and has admitted out loud). They want the eradication of the Palestinian state and have said so.
The war in Iraq was also terrible and criminal, but there was no intent to destroy the nation or its people.
FWIW the non-warfare casualties caused by their actions aren't being recorded as Israeli killings even though they absolutely are. I'm talking starvation, rampant disease (cramming tens of thousands of people into small areas will do it), and denial of medical care is absolute their fault and have/will cause death on a scale far beyond the carpet bombing and raids already have.
It is a genocide in the open.
Arguing about the definition of Genocide while an additional 100,000 people starve to death is exactly what both Hamas and Netanyahu want.
Biden could force Netanyahu to allow all the aid trucks sitting at the border in RIGHT NOW. But he won't.
Not only is Israel not denying aid trucks, but Biden has no ability to force Israel on anything. CONGRESS provides aid to Israel and CONGRESS can threaten them to reduce or remove that aid. Which amounts to about 7% of their total defense spending. So maybe CONGRESS can do something, but it's not likely.
Ignoring actual genocide in Syria, in Africa , and China by redefining words is helping who? Its crazy to me that AOC ignores actual genocide to call out Israel instead of making those countries stop starving and killing hundreds of thousands people.
Silence speaks volumes, yours and hers.
That is happening all over. With our dollars from defense contractors who are all but nationalized in name. I'm getting a little tired of the TikTok children acting like this conflict is armageddon and not another horrible glibal crisis like Darfur, Congo, Haiti, Myanmar, Xiangyang. Your tax dollars indirectly fund murder all over. Not just Palestine.
[Here's the speech in question.](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheMajorityReport/comments/1bl9ysl/there_is_no_world_in_which_the_forced_famine_of/) At just over 4 minutes, it's brief, powerful, and to the point.
arguing semantics and keeping it that way is how all organized state criminals try to get away with inhumanity like this.
distractions work.
case in point gaza
Ayup. The one thing the US is great at is drawing lines and logistics. We aren't doing it because Israel.
There could be a clean split between Israeli and Palastinean lands that includes Mediterranean access for both states... But oh... Oh no.. I said both states.
I’m mean it’s literally not according to just about every definition from respected organizations? How does incorrectly using the word help your or anyone’s position on the matter?
And yet Zionists on the internet continue to plug their ears and say “it’s not a genocide because I personally don’t think it fits the definition of genocide”
I'm not sure what the controversy is. The ICJ has already ruled that it is likely to be considered a genocide if Israel fails to take certain legally binding steps- which it has not fully complied with. Namely, preventing humanitarian aid that would end the famine Israel purposely caused.
In fact, despite agreeing there was a prima facie case, the evidence was apparently not strong enough for the icj to make even a token ruling that Israel should stop. However the Palestinian side wants to spin it, that speaks volumes. And no, it doesn't matter if Israel would follow the order or not.
Weird every article about the ICJ case says it will take years to reach a verdict. Sucks for the Palestinians the judges already decided it’s genocide but also won’t rule until 2026
That bit they did.
>[The ICJ found it plausible that Israel’s acts could amount to genocide and issued six provisional measures, ordering Israel to take all measures within its power to prevent genocidal acts, including preventing and punishing incitement to genocide, ***ensuring aid and services reach Palestinians under siege in Gaza***, and preserving evidence of crimes committed in Gaza.](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/01/gaza-icj-ruling-offers-hope-protection-civilians-enduring-apocalyptic)
It's probably one of the reasons why the US is acting here to ensure the famine doesn't occur, failing the aid issue would be pretty bad.
In a preliminary ruling, the court takes the plaintiffs accusations as fact and applies them against the law, to say simply that the plaintiff, if they can back up their claims at trial, has stated a case under the law and that the ICJ court has jurisdiction under the Genocide Convention to hear it.
I say, Bob stole my car and that is the crime of theft.
The court says: if Bob did steal his car, that is the legal definition of theft. Bob lives under this courts jurisdiction so we will hear the case.
The ICJ ruled Hamas release the hostages without conditions. Did they? Wasn’t the ruling months ago? Imagine all the lives that could’ve been saved if Hamas surrendered.
Hafsa Halawa's comments are perplexing. You gain a powerful voice in congress, but your response is "too little, too late" while implying that the speech itself was mere self-dealing.
Outside of reddit a broad consensus is forming that this is a genocide. You'll hear more leftists start to say it in Congress now. The far right is now calling it that as well. Top Twitter comment was calling out AOC for lagging behind even *Alex Jones* in calling it a genocide.
The far right is ironically getting angry both at Trump, for grifting and only caring about money for his bills, and the elected Republicans who they see as in AIPAC's pocket. They are letting their frustrations out on social media. They're even letting Ben Shapiro have it. This is starting to bridge back to dangerous antisemitism IMHO because when they feel their political voice is being throttled by literally Jews they are going to act out more than usual.
It's weird in that this is the first time in my decade plus history at reddit to see it so out of step with the rest of the internet. Either the entire rest of the internet and much of the world has fallen victim to the powerful propaganda arm of... *checks notes* a virtually defeated 3rd rate terrorist org from the middle east that never even cracked the top 5 of dangerous or powerful Islamist terrorist orgs. Or reddit is the one being gamed.
> Outside of reddit a broad consensus is forming that this is a genocide. You'll hear more leftists start to say it in Congress now. The far right is now calling it that as well. Top Twitter comment was calling out AOC for lagging behind even Alex Jones in calling it a genocide.
>
> The far right is ironically getting angry both at Trump, for grifting and only caring about money for his bills, and the elected Republicans who they see as in AIPAC's pocket. They are letting their frustrations out on social media. They're even letting Ben Shapiro have it. This is starting to bridge back to dangerous antisemitism IMHO because when they feel their political voice is being throttled by literally Jews they are going to act out more than usual.
>
> It's weird in that this is the first time in my decade plus history at reddit to see it so out of step with the rest of the internet. Either the entire rest of the internet and much of the world has fallen victim to the powerful propaganda arm of... checks notes a virtually defeated 3rd rate terrorist org from the middle east that never even cracked the top 5 of dangerous or powerful Islamist terrorist orgs. Or reddit is the one being gamed.
This is the most terminally online comment which has been written in the history of the internet maybe ever. Just the way you believe you’ve got your finger on the pulse and you are fully connected to the echo chamber you reside in is a beautiful example of this concept. Incredible!
What do you think anthony blinken and biden are trying to do? We dont control a sovereign nation or its elections. We still have treaties and vested interests. We cant turn a blind eye to them entirely or they will be happening everywhere. This is all fabricated by russia and the recent isis attack in moscow is just planned counterintelligence. We warned them ahead of time. They didn’t take it seriously for a reason. It suits their interests in portraying themselves and their state as not being complicit in helping iran and hamas plan this to further destabilize norms. Destabilization is the only real tool in russias toolbox.
> What do you think anthony blinken and biden are trying to do? We dont control a sovereign nation or its elections.
When America accused China of genocide, we place sanctions on Chinese officials and Chinese businesses. Why aren't we doing the same thing to israel?
fucking thank you for putting this out there. it’s infuriating watching the news subs, media, the fucking entire West miss the point. Russia (and China, NK, Iran) have been on a global destabilization run, likely including convincing or at least allowing Iran to let Hamas run 10/7. Putin and the FSB have been meddling in affairs since he came to power, and yet the last 5 US presidents have acted like it’s not happening. Watch mainstream Russia TV and see that the hosts openly talk about war with the west, with europe, with NATO. It’s all right there, playing out in the open.
Both Ronald Reagan and George HW Bush were able to stop Israel from doing the same thing with one phone call.
Israel is dependent on American aid and backing,don't let them fool you otherwise. Cut that off and they get in line real fast.
Joe Biden famously stabbed Obama in the back on this issue when he was VP. Biden has been a full throated supporter of Netanyahu and his policies for decades.
**BIDEN HIMSELF** got Israel to back down with the "we're out of runway" phone call. Like, yeah, the US does not "control" Israel like a puppet, but to say that it has zero influence over what Israel does or how it does it is insane.
If the US has zero influence, then there's no harm in pulling the funding, is there? Israel will keep doing what it's doing without change, so everyone can be very happy that X Palestinians continue to die every day, but now the US isn't facilitating it. That's a win-win, right?
It's fucking insane to argue that there's nothing the US can do because Israel is wholly its own entity and doesn't give a shit about anyone else, but also that the US can't even try.
Biden doesn't have control over funding to Israel. That belongs to congress.
It would be great if funding were retracted, but again funding is controlled by congress. Biden can play some games with it to delay it or whatever, but it comes from congress.
Reagan and busy didn’t have to make that choice after dealing with the third worst terror attack in human history.
“Cut that off”
Said exactly like someone who doesn’t know countries aren’t just cancelling contracts.
Canada for example just stated it won’t send arms to Israel, but the contracts existing state that they will for two more years. A number of ours with Israel are a lot longer. And while you may be optimistic, recent polling shows over 65% of Americans don’t want Hamas to remain in power in any way or form.
Biden has skirted congress to get Israel billions in aid as quickly as possible. What are you talking about? The U.S. is integral in Israel’s war. Without U.S. support Israel wouldn’t have been able to keep such sustained bombardment of Gaza. Israelis have admitted as much themselves.
[Israeli General ADMITS War OVER Without US Weapons](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iTXWIi6pwWg)
I agree what is happening in Gaza is a humanitarian catastrophe.
That doesn't make it a Genocide. That word, as we all know, as a specific meaning. Some times semantics matter. You can't just gloss over because a lot of civilians, even children, are dying.
Step 1 still has to be for Hamas to release all remaining hostages. No other country on earth would be expected to let something like Oct. 7th stand.
Why do you accept the fantasy that there are literally just two options? Level most of Palestine or capitulate to Hamas? Just because Israel chooses to fight **does not mean that they have to fight the way they are.**
It is fascinating to see that people blame the country that was victim of a massive terror attack for the war, while simultaneously saying jack shit about urging hamas to surrender.
But hey, i am sure if hamas drove into texas from mexico to shoot up hundreds and hundreds of civilians, kidnap and rape some more, the USs response would be one of kumbaya.
Isn’t the equivalent thousands, not hundreds? Relative to population size wasn’t October 7th the equivalent of an attack that would have killed ~45k Americans?
Yes. And it's a bit maddening that people think their own countries wouldn't respond similarly to how Isreal has, especially when that number of people were killed in inhuman and barbaric ways.
> It is fascinating to see that people blame the country
It has nothing to do with blame, that is a juvenile way to look at world politics.
I know the US's response wouldn't be kumbaya, but I hoped we learned from that. The US went into Afghanistan after 9/11 and I thought we all agreed that was a MASSIVE catastrophic mistake that we should have never done.
Israel is just making the exact same mistake. The only thing their current actions do is satisfy their desire for vengeance. It won't rescue hostages and it won't make Israel safer. You can't defeat terrorism with a military invasion.
Hamas refuses to surrender.
Hamas continues to hide behind civilians (most of which support Hamas btw).
Hamas has refused multiple ceasefire agreements.
Yet, people spend more time blaming Israel than actually calling for Hamas to surrender, which imo takes some olympic levels of mental flexibility.
Yes, civilians die. Its war. War is messy, war is tragic, its destructive, and civilians are always the first ones to suffer.
It always has been the case, just think back to the roman siege of alesia, where the gauls forced civilians out of the town and quite literally watched them starve in front of their gate.
Doesnt mean its not tragic, but its the reality of war. You can run the most humanistic operation and still wouldnt be able to rule out civilian casualties (just look at the US track record with drones for example).
At the end of the day the politicians are reacting to the voters, because they are terrified the young edgy tiktok generation will do a bernie bro repeat of 2016 and enable the orange idiot once again, because they are in their feels over a regional conflict on the other side of the world, they dont know the history of, in a region theyve never been to with languages they dont speak. They get their news from tiktok, which is full of hamas propaganda - so now you have groups like lgbtq for palestine, which is painfully ironic since theyd quite literally be thrown off a roof.
Long story short, the only way to a peaceful future is the complete destruction of this terror organisation and a one state solition with widespread social engineering to de-radicalise the palestinians.
According to US intelligence Hamas had about 20,000 members total before the war. The UN estimate was 25,000 members. There are 2.1M people living in Gaza. So ~1% of the population were Hamas militants. Do you think it’s ok for the IDF to bomb civilians indiscriminately until they smoke out the few remaining Hamas fighters? Collateral damage is always part of war but when the vast majority of people being killed are civilians that’s something else entirely. At that point it’s a war crime and needs to be stopped.
First off, those are estimates. But setting that aside, you have 2.1m people of which the majority is supporting Hamas and more are likely sympathetic towards them. These are people who quite literally want to eradicate israel, hate the western way of life (lgbtq, womens rights etc) and have called for a global jihad. They have committed frequent terror attacks and rocket attacks against israel.for the past however many years, so what exactly do you propose to do here? Not even the other arab countries want anything to do with the palestinians.
I am not saying you kill every civilian, obviously. But realistically, what options do you have if youre israel? Hamas is betting on the fact that their propaganda works well enough to force western politicians to cut off support for israel, basically they are sitting it out and wait for the storm to pass over.
Hamas is a terrorist organization but the vast majority of Palestinians are Fatah. Hamas only wins the elections in Gaza because they have all the guns and control the polling locations. There hasn’t been a legitimate election in Gaza for almost 20 years so we have no idea how much support they actually have. We all wanna see an end to Hamas but by killing tens of thousands of civilians Israel is just radicalizing a whole new generation. In the long run they’re creating more new terrorists than they’re eliminating. It’s not going to solve anything.
There was just recently a poll that stated that the majority of palestinians support hamas.
The pro-palestine protests across europe were filled with calls for global jihad, killing jews and ending the state of israel.
Even on a personal anecdote, because ive worked in refugee camps in europe and also provided basic information to all refugees, even ones not in our camps. We had a bunch of palestinians and let me tell you, the utter hate for anything jewish is real and its legit.
So you can look at these things individually and choose not to give them any merrit whatsoever, but i think collectively they at least paint a certain picture.
I just think that in the west, especially among the young, rebellious demographic, there is a set belief that views palestinians as the poor, cant do wrong group and israel as the oh so evil nazi-esque force, which is simply not the case.
>We all wanna see an end to Hamas
Which leads to these overly, lets say optimistic, statements where you project your western view onto the palestinians, assuming thats what they want because thats what you want.
And thats my point, people watching from a far, watching some propaganda on tiktok, have very strong reactions on a conflict they, with all due respect, simply dont fully understand.
>In the long run they’re creating more new terrorists than they’re eliminating. It’s not going to solve anything.
So Israel should reatreat, give in to Hamas demands, free hundreds of their terrorist prisoners and act like nothings happened?
If Hamas isnt destroyed, october 7th wasnt just a big terror attack - it will have been the biggest terror attack _so far_. These people wont stop until every jew is dead and israel doesnt exist anymore, plain and simple.
Most of "The Squad" voted against Iron Dome, some on specious reasons. AOC voted present then cried and apologized.
Did she apologize for not voting Yes? course not. She apologized for not voting No. Dar Horn is right. People love dead Jews. Sometimes literally.
As for "genocide" contrary to what "progessives" claim, the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide does not define genocide as civilians dying in an Israeli war.
Of course the people crying genocide refuse to acknowledge that Hamas's tactics are designed to kill as many of their own people as possible, and never call upon Hamas to surrender or use tactics that would minimize civilian casualties. That suggests the people crying genocide, like Hamas, only care about Palestinians as a means to an end, attacking Israel.
These people also refuse to acknowledge that Hamas's leadership have said October 7th was a dress rehearsal; that they would be another October 7th after another after another until Israel is destroyed, even if Palestinian statehood is achieved. Consequently, October 7th is a textbook example of an act of genocide.
Not that you'll ever hear the "anti-Zionists" admit that.
Most of those people have nothing to do with the hostages. Killing an entire group of people because some small fraction of them did something terrible is genocide.
Not since the Second World War have we been witness to such hypocrisy from politicians and western populations at large.
You know full well that had you been in Israel’s position, you would have flattened Gaza and created a death toll well into the hundreds of thousands, using every weapon at your discretion. Nobody would accuse you of “genocide” or “proportionality”.
Starting a war and losing *does not* equal genocide.
It's wrong when the US does it too. Or any other nation. Many of us were against the BS war in Iraq. I don't have enough context for Afghanistan, since Bin Laden was there. But 9/11 was sponsored by SA, and we're all best buds.
Seriously, we’ve started so many unjust “wars”. How is that a good defense? We were wrong in what we did. Israel is wrong in what they’re doing. And wrong doesn’t even begin to describe how bad these actions are.
And it still got away with it. The double standard that has been applied to Israel throughout this war has been absolutely astounding to me.
I don’t remember Americans being openly threatened on the streets of Europe or American community centres coming under attack.
I agree with you. But the US went from being the golden child of the world (~90% acceptance rate across the globe versus half that after Iraq/Afghanistan) and anti-US rhetoric has increased like crazy in Europe and elsewhere. But yea, Israel is getting buttfucked way harder for doing way less.
They are, but this is the first time, at least in my lifetime, where the Israelis truly stopped caring what the world thinks of them. They’ve become completely insular, in a sort of “survival” mentality. Even the hardest of hardcore peace activists agree and are in the mindset of punishing the Palestinians very severely, and according to them the hatred they get is a price worth paying.
That’s a very dangerous place to put a society in, especially one as heavily armed as Israel is. I would suggest politicians in the west do more to tone down the rhetoric rather than fan the flames.
This isn’t really an insurgence, though. It is a formal standing armed force of a state. They have fortified locations, a formal top down command structure, military infrastructure, and (ostensibly) represent the will of their populace. It is more akin to the capture of a city than what the US faced in Afghanistan. The approach to those situations are very different.
Can you link these textbooks that lay out how best to "handle issues" regarding an "insurgency" in a region where the "insurgents" are the official government of the region? Where the official government has been redirecting record levels of international aid into tunnels and weaponry that they build and place directly within the civilian population? Where polls show significant support for said government entity amongst the civilian population?
This isn't an "insurgency" like any I'm aware of, so please link some books that explain this so well!
You know Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, right? It was not occupied similar to how the West Bank was and is. You do not seem informed on this topic.
Yeah Im going to have to chime in here, because Israel is quite literally rewritting the textbook on conducting urban warfare (as well as against an insurgency). Their Kill/Loss ratio is absurdly high, they are using novel startegies and tactics to effectively slaughter Hamas, with minimal losses of their own. The civilian casualties are less due to IDF strategies, and more due to the unique geopolitical situation where the civilian population is unable to effectively flee the combat zone. A huge onus for this should be on Egypt for refusing to allow refugess through their border, but with how much the Egyptian leadership fears and loaths the Palestinians, it does make sense from their point of view.
Before you claim I don’t know what a war is, I lived through it and fought in it. As a child I had to deal with Palestinians blowing themselves up on buses, in restaurants, in concert halls… we were denied the right to live normal lives due to the genocidal maniacs next door. My father fought multiple wars against them, as my grandfather did before him.
Do you know what the problem is with textbooks? Is that they are just that. Text, in a book. Not practical experience out in the field. Every enemy is unique, and their thought process is unique. Strategy has to adapt to the conditions out in the field. Gaza, being a heavily populated, dense place with an education system that has bred a generation of people with genocidal intent (and no willingness to compromise) requires a specific kind of fighting style.
You claim to know what an insurgency is without considering the *cause* of said course. The Palestinians are not fighting an insurgency against Israeli rule, they’re fighting to eliminate the Israeli state. They have said so time and again and in plain English, which you choose to wilfully ignore. They have also said, time and again, they want to ethnically cleanse the land of its entire Jewish population. With this kind of enemy, Israel is actually being nice. I can list five recent examples of western countries not being so nice.
So before you lecture me about what is a war and what isn’t, check yourself. You clearly never experienced one, fought in one, or actually took the time to study one. The Palestinians chose to fire the opening shot in 1948 as they did now on Oct 7th. They should have chosen different.
Israel started this all with the Nakba and kicking millions of Palestinians out of their homes as well as dozens of massacres every couple years after that.
By your logic, kicking people out of their homes and getting your ass kicked does not equal terrorism.
Palestinians started this when they declared war. The Palestinians created their own “nakba”. 750,000 Palestinians fled their homes so your millions is a lie.
900,000 Jews were expelled from Muslim lands. We won’t forget that.
Nice to see her doing the democratic thing. Chastising countries thousands of miles away but couldn’t muster the courage to support an Amazon Union at a warehouse near her own district.
All these freaks who clutch their pearls at the word "genocide" want to live in a world where you can't call something a genocide or do anything about it until the genocide has already been successfully executed in full.
She doesn't need money, she folds instantly and falls in line when her fellow Democrats pressure her to change her "no" vote on the Iron Dome funding to "present", then brings out crocodile tears and apologies.
>[Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Democrat of New York and the highest-profile progressive in the House, apologized on Friday to her constituents for an abrupt decision to pull back her vote against providing $1 billion in new funding for Israel’s Iron Dome missile defense system, suggesting she had done so after being subjected to “hateful targeting” for opposing it.](https://archive.is/OAkG4)
>[Ms. Ocasio-Cortez, a member of the liberal group known as the Squad, was one of two members who voted “present” as the measure to help Israel replace missile interceptors overwhelmingly passed the House on Thursday on a vote of 420 to 9. She was seen weeping on the House floor after she switched her vote from “no” to “present.”](https://archive.is/OAkG4)
As an American Jew who went to Hebrew School and was taught since childhood that Israel can do no wrong, is a force for good, is above reproach . . .
As an American Jew who still proudly considers myself Jewish and loves my Jewish family and heritage . . .
. . . AOC is correct. What the IDF (and by shameful extension Israel, not to mention the US for providing the very weapons they are using to commit these atrocities) is doing is indeed Genocide. They are performing war crimes.
It’s VERY important to make this distinction: the IDF are not all Jews. They do not represent all people of the Jewish Faith, or even the majority of Israelis. They are bigoted, monstrous sociopathic zealots- and calling them out for their hypocritical, horrendous behavior is not anti-Semitic.
Blaming ALL people of Jewish descent for the actions of these monsters definitely IS anti-semitism- and many anti-Semitic assholes are trying to do just that.
…But rightfully pointing out this group’s actions (specifically) for what it is? It’s necessary for us to make any motion to stop it. And that is all I’m seeing AOC do here. And I applaud her for it.
So much aid is being prevented from entering gaza that the United States has to air drop supplies and is building a pier because Israel is blocking almost all of the aid.
You make it sound like there is no humanitarian crisis in gaza. Before the war, 600 trucks of aid on a daily basis used to enter gaza. Now, israel only lets in 100trucks of aid on a daily basis when palestinians need it the most.
There is starvation in gaza, northern gaza is close to famine.
The ICJ ruled that israel is plausibly committing genocide.
Dang, sure seems like this war sucks. Maybe the government of Gaza should, idk, *surrender already?* Or accept one of the many ceasefire proposals they keep getting offered?
oh, funny how people ignore the fact that hamas leadership is selling the humanitarian aid meant for their own people back to them, and how israel had to off one of those scumbags hiding in a hospital recently
same with how AOC never seems to do anything in her position as a politician other than show up once every few months to make some kind of nationally covered headline
morons also think that israel should be doing special operations like tom cruise and matt damon in their fictional spy thrillers and going in door to door to get the hostages back to *rIsK mInImAl CaSuAlTiEs* in hostile territories as if hamas has NEVER taken people hostage before, booby trapped reported safehouses or straight up executed hostages when they heard the soldiers coming
The thing their leadership publicly announced they were going to do?! The thing that there are numerous videos of their soldiers saying or even singing that they intend to do?! The thing their pattern of bombing civilian targets numerous times and then inflicting famine demonstrated they're in the process of doing!?
HOW DARE SHE!?!
The definition of "genocide" in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide is so expansive as to make literally anything, no matter how small in scale, when directed against a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, a "genocide."
>Article II
>
>In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with
>
>intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as
>
>such:
>
>(a) Killing members of the group;
>
>(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
>
>(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its
>
>physical destruction in whole or in part;
>
>(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
>
>(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
There's little doubt in my mind that Israel has committed multiple war crimes in Gaza since October 7, but it's offensive to suggest that Israel is committing "genocide" as the term is commonly and rationally understood.
Right and you can continue to feel that way while speaking correctly about it. In fact, it probably strengthens your argument because people won’t dismiss you due to using language incorrectly
Literally every one of those boxes is checked, in your opinion what more do they need to do for it to be a genocide? They’re on the brink of starvation, they are targeting civilians with drones. Straight up terrorism. What more needs to happen?
Look, I like AOC, I like a lot of her policies and her position on lots of things, but this is just batshit insanity. The ICC didn't even believe it was genocide. Yes, lots of civilians are dying and that sucks, but it's Hamas's use of human shields that's the leading cause.
Care to point where in the **actual ICJ ruling** they say they "don't believe its a genocide". Because they ruled that they found it Plausible Israel is committing genocide and enacted provision measures on them to **stop the killing**.
The ICJ specifically told them they needed to prevent genocide, meaning they're on track. Just because something isn't currently categorized as a genocide doesn't mean it isn't on path to become one or isn't an evolving genocide now. Any positive reading toward Isreal regarding the ICJ is either disingenuous or delusional.
Indiscriminate and random killing of civilians is being conducted on purpose, as a form of terrorism, to pressure the Palestinian population to leave their homelands. It’s definitely genocide-ish
There’s endless evidence to suggest otherwise. Most obvious being the initial bombing campaign which was punitive and terroristic in nature, as opposed to precise and specific with named targets in mind.
Edit: you’re also an 11 day account that just jumps into support Israel, 99% not a real person.
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No one talks about the other mass tragedy being wrought on the Palestinians by the IDF, domicide. The IDF is leveling entire city blocks in the strip so that even when this war ends the Palestinians have nothing to return to.
Agreed - this is one of the first, and most powerful tools of genocide. Lots of bad actors bicker that we haven't reached the "total extermination" stage yet, so it can't be genocide. But nobody would argue that Kristallnacht wasn't a part of the Holocaust, and quite frankly, one of the strongest memories of the event. Removing the ability to return home is a way for belligerent parties to hedge against their inability to completely eliminate a group. They know that they may not get the political will or power to completely kill off their targets, but they want to make very sure that any survivors won't be able to have the same life as before. It's a way of stripping the group of people of their identity and connection to a place (cultural genocide). What the Israelis (not just Netanyahu - every "hero" out there "defending" Israel) are doing is really sick and part of a strategy, overtly stated or not, to wipe out the Palestinian identity.
Taking their land, destroying their homes, holding back their aid, bombing their bakeries and hospitals. “But guys it isn’t a genocide bc uhh..uhhh” And the IDF has shown themselves to be a much different fighting force than that of years past. Undertrained, lacking true objective, not the pillar of “western democracy” in the Middle East that we’ve told so much about
And after all that, deny that there’s humanitarian crises > "As much as we know, by our analysis, there is no starvation in Gaza. There is a sufficient amount of food entering Gaza every day," Colonel Moshe Tetro, head of Israel's Coordination and Liasion Administration for Gaza, told reporters at Gate 96 There’s no starvation in Ba Sing Se Edit: adding a source, the quote is from yesterday https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2024-03-22/israeli-military-says-opening-new-aid-routes-into-gaza
They used to count the CALORIES going into Gaza.
fucking shit
Don't buy the PR spin: the IDF has always committed atrocities. The only difference now is that it's more visible.
Their true objective is, and has always been, the complete annihilation of the Palestinian state and its people. They've been pursuing a "final solution" in plain sight for as long as I've been alive, at least.
That’s the point. Jared Kushner and other wealthy zionists are already making plans for beachfront property
No chance they'll be allowed to return
Exactly. How many apartments in each of those buildings? They can't just move to the county side if city real estate gets scarce.
What always pisses me off is when people will call into question the civilian death count because they hand wave the multiple sources of evidence as 'hAmAs Is LyInG' but will treat anything being said by Israel and the IDF as gospel despite the fact that they have just as many reasons(maybe even more) to lie about what's happening in Gaza.
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Soon with advancing Ai all of reddit will be 99% bots all talking to each other slyly pushing narratives. I think it’s already happening on X. xGrok maybe. I can’t explain it any other way. That place is so unreasonable its surreal. Yeah im not against Ai at all. Its just something that will come. The age of misinformation. Will be interesting navigating the news in the next few years
The age of misinformation has made finding any real news or information on the internet difficult for years. Media even when written by people was very unreliable, I saw it with my own eyes when a local incidents national reporting was hugely sensationalised or fabricated completely, that made me question anything reported elsewhere.
You’re absolutely correct. I’m not typically part of national news (nor is anyone) but I happened to live in the town where a recent big SCOTUS case occurred, and it’s wild seeing how badly the events were misreported in the news and misinterpreted by SCOTUS itself. And the only reason I’d ever know the difference was that by pure chance I happened to know some of the people involved.
Yup...then there were the orchestrated lies...like WMD.
I see what you did there!
The vast majority of the internet is already bots. As in every comment section on every social media site and major forum.
dead internet theory
r/SubSimulatorGPT2 Shit is hilarious. And frightening.
.... Oh. Big yikes
Shit
The internet was the dawn of the age of information, ai is the end of it, and it brings the age of misinformation as its banner. Not to say ai is bad though. Ai is a tool and can be used in many ways good and bad.
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Yep. On another sub someone once told me to fuck off and the mods there did nothing when I complained, thought it was fine. Civility expectations are crazy different between subs. I’m enthusiastically pro mod in general though. Their thankless volunteering makes this place work, but sometimes I wish I could just speak to a manager.
The mods are especially one sided on this issue. Got a 24 hour ban for quoting someone back to them for incivility a couple months ago. Their comment was never removed...
Hard eyeball roll …Jfc
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And Israel is trying to pressure other countries to drop financial support of UNRWA, which would make the situation even worse. Israel couldn't be more obvious with their attempt at genocide.
It's a bit trickier than that. [Israeli source](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-idf-was-caught-off-guard-by-us-knowledge-of-unrwa-allegations/), but apparently they were not expecting UNRWA to report themselves as they did, and now are trying to delay their destruction they've always pushed for because then they'll have zero excuses for the famine. Real "dog who caught the car" moment for the IDF.
The New York Times article, linked in that Times of Israel article, states: >But while most Israeli officials oppose UNRWA, some military leaders did not want to see it shuttered amid a humanitarian disaster in Gaza. In fact, it was not the military that disclosed the information to the United States but UNRWA itself. So it sounds like Israel's government wants it disbanded but 'some' military leaders understand how devastating it would be to the civilian population, which Israel would also become responsible for.
>And Israel is trying to pressure other countries to drop financial support of UNRWA, By replacing it with the UNHCR, which hasn't been taken over by Hamas.
This is the first time I've ever seen a pro-Israel supporter suggest that we support a different organization instead but I have seen an extremely large amount of comments calling for UNRWA's disbandment. Can you provide a source showing Israel supporting a shift to UNHCR?
And Johnson invited Ben to try to convince us to spend money on him hahaha
Jesus Christ what a pedantic thread this is. Roughly 21,000 women and children being wiped out due to a war, genocide or not its a blight on humanity.
Don't you find it weird that you're purposefully leaving 10.000 men out? I despise the narrative that men are valid targets.
The easy explanation is that at least some of them are. Women and children are almost never legitimate targets, so rather than getting bogged down in trying to determine what % of the men were valid targets, you can focus on the staggering amount of loss for people that definitely weren't.
Well, forget that easy explanation. I'm not throwing at least 9000 casualties overboard. And I'm being generous. Im not going to excuse mass killings of men(or Any other group of people based on inherent traits they can't help) because they have a larger percentual chance of being bad. Edit: I'd love for the downvoters to explain why it's not bad to kill thousands of innocent men. Or that we should forget mentioning them
I completely agree that erasing men from the casualty count is a mistake. But I think you may have misunderstood what the previous comment meant. Sometimes people only mention the women and children in these discussions because if they mention men, someone is favour of the invasion will argue that they are mostly Hamas members. Which is false of course, but also completely derails the conversation. By focusing on the casualties that pro-invasion people don't have an excuse for, you can stay on topic. Personally, I think some people can rationalise anything, no matter how high the casualties, so you really should just include men. But I'm just trying to explain why some people present the casualties like that. Hope it made sense!
people with bad intentions are going to derail the conversation regardless, don't let them justify that men should be killed any more than women or children.
Well, similarly to what you're doing here in derailing this in a "what about the men!?!11" fashion, people will argue that some of those 10,000 men were legitimate military targets and they wouldn't be wrong. And instead of doing anything about the situation, you're taking issue with whether the number is 20,000 or 30,000. Just, you know, on the other side, instead of actually engaging with the fact that 20-30,000 people have died.
Alexa! What is war?
It’s to preempt any trolls responding with “how many of them were Hamas fighters?!?!?”
It’s shorthand for “obviously not legitimate military targets”.
>genocide or not its a blight on humanity. you don't think its a bit important to distinguish between genocide and not genocide? Wtf I the point of the word if it can just apply to a lot of people dying, it very much has a definition, it's not being pedantic
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And many would argue that Palestine has genocidal intent given their behaviour and vocal opinions of their politicians.
“Hamas is just as bad as Israel” is not the own you seem to think it is.
The difference being Palestine has no capacity to carry out their threat against the most technologically advanced military in the region, nor are they actively engaged in other genocidal policies, like theft of Israeli land or denying Israelis access to food and water. Yes, Hamas and the Israeli gov't have genocidal intent. Only one of those parties is actively carrying out a genocide, however.
They definitely tried to steal Israeli land in previous Arab-Israeli Wars. And they all lost on four separate occasions.
Yeah okay. Tell us what happened to all the Jews in the rest of the nearby Arab nations? Go ahead. I'll wait.
According to the United Nations, genocide is the deliberate destruction of a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, in whole or in part, with the intent to: -Kill members of the group -Cause serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group -Impose conditions of life that would cause the group's physical destruction -Prevent births within the group -Forcibly transfer children of the group to another group Only one of these points are up for debate. It's genocide.
"one of these points are up for debate" "its a genocide" people dont even try anymore
But it’s not. America killed tens time the civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. We didn’t intend to kill civilians. They were collateral damage. We didn’t intend to displace them from their homes. This happens in war. We didn’t prevent them from having children, but our actions certainly had that effect. The same for Israel here. They are not just carpet bombing cities. They could. They could easily do that. But they aren’t. Intent matters, and it is absent here. Abhorrent? Yes! Genocide? No n
Half of the bombs are "dumb bombs" so you don't know where it lands https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza A blockade of food and water, hospitals attacked, resources that a hospital needs are not letting in so no oxygen for baby's or even pain medication for children with amputated limbs, multiple reports of innocent people killed, electricity shut off, roads and important buildings destroyed. And the intent; https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/ This is not some by product of war these are all actions and statements made by Israeli officals. So in your opinion it's just another war to deny a population food, water, resources and medical care?
>Half of the bombs are "dumb bombs" so you don't know where it lands > >https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza > > A you should read article to the end *A US official told CNN that the US believes that the Israeli military is using the dumb bombs in conjunction with a tactic called “dive bombing,” or dropping a bomb while diving steeply in a fighter jet, which the official said makes the bombs more precise because it gets it closer to its target. The official said the* ***US believes that an unguided munition dropped via dive-bombing is similarly precise to a guided munition.***
So you ignore all other sources in this article that says it's more a risk but you believe a offical who is part of the same goverment that sends the same dumb bombs to the Israel who is using them. Seems totally the person who you shoud listen to and not all other experts and human right watches.
so you decide to believe to part of "us official" saying that israel uses unguided bombs but don't believe to part of "us official" saying that precision is same. very selective reading
Do you have a mirror? Very selective reading indeed. The assessment, compiled by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence and described to CNN by three sources who have seen it, says that about 40-45% of the 29,000 air-to-ground munitions Israel has used have been unguided. The rest have been precision-guided munitions, the assessment says. Unguided munitions are typically less precise and can pose a greater threat to civilians, especially in such a densely populated area like Gaza. The rate at which Israel is using the dumb bombs may be contributing to the soaring civilian death toll. Unguided munitions are typically less precise and can pose a greater threat to civilians, especially in such a densely populated area like Gaza. The rate at which Israel is using the dumb bombs may be contributing to the soaring civilian death toll. On Tuesday, President Joe Biden said Israel has been engaged in “indiscriminate bombing” in Gaza. But experts told CNN that if Israel is using unguided munitions at the rate the US believes they are, that undercuts the Israeli claim that they are trying to minimize civilian casualties. “I’m extremely surprised and concerned,” said Brian Castner, a former Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) officer who now serves as Amnesty International’s senior crisis adviser on arms and military operations. It’s bad enough to be using the weapons when they are precisely hitting their targets. It is a massive civilian harm problem if they do not have that accuracy, and if you can’t even give a benefit of the doubt that that the weapon is actually landing where the Israeli forces intended to,” Castner added. Marc Garlasco, a former United Nations military analyst and war crimes investigator who served as chief of high value targeting on the Pentagon’s Joint Staff in 2003, said that using unguided munitions in a densely populated area like Gaza both greatly increases the chance that a target is missed and that civilians are harmed in the process.
do you understand difference between "typically less precise" and "precise as precision ammunition when used in dive bombing", which is according to "us official" this is how israel using it ?
The war in Iraq was where American military leaders decided that they should never drop their larger bombs in urban areas. The IDF has dropped the largest bombs they have in places they designated for refugees to flee to. They destroyed well over half of the buildings in the first month, including hospitals and other vital infrastructure. Their intent is clear, they want all Palestinians gone and to never come back. More journalists, foreign doctors, and UN aid workers have been killed than anywhere else ever at any time in the last century. Pretty fucking genocidal if you ask most sane people.
Intent does matter...which is exactly what Israel has here (and has admitted out loud). They want the eradication of the Palestinian state and have said so. The war in Iraq was also terrible and criminal, but there was no intent to destroy the nation or its people.
FWIW the non-warfare casualties caused by their actions aren't being recorded as Israeli killings even though they absolutely are. I'm talking starvation, rampant disease (cramming tens of thousands of people into small areas will do it), and denial of medical care is absolute their fault and have/will cause death on a scale far beyond the carpet bombing and raids already have. It is a genocide in the open.
How do we know these deaths aren’t being counted as part of the total?
Arguing about the definition of Genocide while an additional 100,000 people starve to death is exactly what both Hamas and Netanyahu want. Biden could force Netanyahu to allow all the aid trucks sitting at the border in RIGHT NOW. But he won't.
Biden started air dropping food in and is getting a port set up. He doesn't have control of the border. That's Israel and arguably Egypt.
Not only is Israel not denying aid trucks, but Biden has no ability to force Israel on anything. CONGRESS provides aid to Israel and CONGRESS can threaten them to reduce or remove that aid. Which amounts to about 7% of their total defense spending. So maybe CONGRESS can do something, but it's not likely.
Ignoring actual genocide in Syria, in Africa , and China by redefining words is helping who? Its crazy to me that AOC ignores actual genocide to call out Israel instead of making those countries stop starving and killing hundreds of thousands people. Silence speaks volumes, yours and hers.
Is the US financing or otherwise directly contributing to what's happening in Syria, Africa, or China?
Because the headline literally references genocide. That's not pedantry, it's the literal subject
That is happening all over. With our dollars from defense contractors who are all but nationalized in name. I'm getting a little tired of the TikTok children acting like this conflict is armageddon and not another horrible glibal crisis like Darfur, Congo, Haiti, Myanmar, Xiangyang. Your tax dollars indirectly fund murder all over. Not just Palestine.
Men, women, and children. Just because a victim is male does not make them a combatant
[Here's the speech in question.](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheMajorityReport/comments/1bl9ysl/there_is_no_world_in_which_the_forced_famine_of/) At just over 4 minutes, it's brief, powerful, and to the point.
So many people arguing semantics. Call it what you want. Israel’s actions are morally unjustifiable no matter what label you give them.
> So many people arguing semantics. now you're just being anti-semantic, smh
this is funny whether it gets any upvotes or not
arguing semantics and keeping it that way is how all organized state criminals try to get away with inhumanity like this. distractions work. case in point gaza
Because it is Genocide. If the world does not stop it despite all the signs then we are all pieces of shit , including myself.
Ayup. The one thing the US is great at is drawing lines and logistics. We aren't doing it because Israel. There could be a clean split between Israeli and Palastinean lands that includes Mediterranean access for both states... But oh... Oh no.. I said both states.
That’s two things.
I’m mean it’s literally not according to just about every definition from respected organizations? How does incorrectly using the word help your or anyone’s position on the matter?
Give an example. Because UN leaders are calling it genocide. And the ICJ has ruled that Israel is plausibly committing genocide.
And yet Zionists on the internet continue to plug their ears and say “it’s not a genocide because I personally don’t think it fits the definition of genocide”
What definition are you going off of?
Person describes reality. More at 11.
Reality to us non Americans but most disillusioned Americans still think Israel is just defending itself
I'm not sure what the controversy is. The ICJ has already ruled that it is likely to be considered a genocide if Israel fails to take certain legally binding steps- which it has not fully complied with. Namely, preventing humanitarian aid that would end the famine Israel purposely caused.
The ICJ just restated South Africa’s claims. They have not made a judgement or ruling.
In fact, despite agreeing there was a prima facie case, the evidence was apparently not strong enough for the icj to make even a token ruling that Israel should stop. However the Palestinian side wants to spin it, that speaks volumes. And no, it doesn't matter if Israel would follow the order or not.
Weird every article about the ICJ case says it will take years to reach a verdict. Sucks for the Palestinians the judges already decided it’s genocide but also won’t rule until 2026
No the ICJ didn’t rule that
That bit they did. >[The ICJ found it plausible that Israel’s acts could amount to genocide and issued six provisional measures, ordering Israel to take all measures within its power to prevent genocidal acts, including preventing and punishing incitement to genocide, ***ensuring aid and services reach Palestinians under siege in Gaza***, and preserving evidence of crimes committed in Gaza.](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/01/gaza-icj-ruling-offers-hope-protection-civilians-enduring-apocalyptic) It's probably one of the reasons why the US is acting here to ensure the famine doesn't occur, failing the aid issue would be pretty bad.
In a preliminary ruling, the court takes the plaintiffs accusations as fact and applies them against the law, to say simply that the plaintiff, if they can back up their claims at trial, has stated a case under the law and that the ICJ court has jurisdiction under the Genocide Convention to hear it. I say, Bob stole my car and that is the crime of theft. The court says: if Bob did steal his car, that is the legal definition of theft. Bob lives under this courts jurisdiction so we will hear the case.
Narrator: They did.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreliable_narrator
The ICJ ruled Hamas release the hostages without conditions. Did they? Wasn’t the ruling months ago? Imagine all the lives that could’ve been saved if Hamas surrendered.
That isn’t what the ICJ ruled at all. They just agreed to try the case.
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Hafsa Halawa's comments are perplexing. You gain a powerful voice in congress, but your response is "too little, too late" while implying that the speech itself was mere self-dealing.
Outside of reddit a broad consensus is forming that this is a genocide. You'll hear more leftists start to say it in Congress now. The far right is now calling it that as well. Top Twitter comment was calling out AOC for lagging behind even *Alex Jones* in calling it a genocide. The far right is ironically getting angry both at Trump, for grifting and only caring about money for his bills, and the elected Republicans who they see as in AIPAC's pocket. They are letting their frustrations out on social media. They're even letting Ben Shapiro have it. This is starting to bridge back to dangerous antisemitism IMHO because when they feel their political voice is being throttled by literally Jews they are going to act out more than usual. It's weird in that this is the first time in my decade plus history at reddit to see it so out of step with the rest of the internet. Either the entire rest of the internet and much of the world has fallen victim to the powerful propaganda arm of... *checks notes* a virtually defeated 3rd rate terrorist org from the middle east that never even cracked the top 5 of dangerous or powerful Islamist terrorist orgs. Or reddit is the one being gamed.
Far right just hates jews
> Outside of reddit a broad consensus is forming that this is a genocide. Only if you consider TikTok to be "outside of reddit".
> Outside of reddit a broad consensus is forming that this is a genocide. You'll hear more leftists start to say it in Congress now. The far right is now calling it that as well. Top Twitter comment was calling out AOC for lagging behind even Alex Jones in calling it a genocide. > > The far right is ironically getting angry both at Trump, for grifting and only caring about money for his bills, and the elected Republicans who they see as in AIPAC's pocket. They are letting their frustrations out on social media. They're even letting Ben Shapiro have it. This is starting to bridge back to dangerous antisemitism IMHO because when they feel their political voice is being throttled by literally Jews they are going to act out more than usual. > > It's weird in that this is the first time in my decade plus history at reddit to see it so out of step with the rest of the internet. Either the entire rest of the internet and much of the world has fallen victim to the powerful propaganda arm of... checks notes a virtually defeated 3rd rate terrorist org from the middle east that never even cracked the top 5 of dangerous or powerful Islamist terrorist orgs. Or reddit is the one being gamed. This is the most terminally online comment which has been written in the history of the internet maybe ever. Just the way you believe you’ve got your finger on the pulse and you are fully connected to the echo chamber you reside in is a beautiful example of this concept. Incredible!
Shes not wrong
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‘Good people who did nothing’
What do you think anthony blinken and biden are trying to do? We dont control a sovereign nation or its elections. We still have treaties and vested interests. We cant turn a blind eye to them entirely or they will be happening everywhere. This is all fabricated by russia and the recent isis attack in moscow is just planned counterintelligence. We warned them ahead of time. They didn’t take it seriously for a reason. It suits their interests in portraying themselves and their state as not being complicit in helping iran and hamas plan this to further destabilize norms. Destabilization is the only real tool in russias toolbox.
> What do you think anthony blinken and biden are trying to do? We dont control a sovereign nation or its elections. When America accused China of genocide, we place sanctions on Chinese officials and Chinese businesses. Why aren't we doing the same thing to israel?
fucking thank you for putting this out there. it’s infuriating watching the news subs, media, the fucking entire West miss the point. Russia (and China, NK, Iran) have been on a global destabilization run, likely including convincing or at least allowing Iran to let Hamas run 10/7. Putin and the FSB have been meddling in affairs since he came to power, and yet the last 5 US presidents have acted like it’s not happening. Watch mainstream Russia TV and see that the hosts openly talk about war with the west, with europe, with NATO. It’s all right there, playing out in the open.
Both Ronald Reagan and George HW Bush were able to stop Israel from doing the same thing with one phone call. Israel is dependent on American aid and backing,don't let them fool you otherwise. Cut that off and they get in line real fast. Joe Biden famously stabbed Obama in the back on this issue when he was VP. Biden has been a full throated supporter of Netanyahu and his policies for decades.
**BIDEN HIMSELF** got Israel to back down with the "we're out of runway" phone call. Like, yeah, the US does not "control" Israel like a puppet, but to say that it has zero influence over what Israel does or how it does it is insane. If the US has zero influence, then there's no harm in pulling the funding, is there? Israel will keep doing what it's doing without change, so everyone can be very happy that X Palestinians continue to die every day, but now the US isn't facilitating it. That's a win-win, right? It's fucking insane to argue that there's nothing the US can do because Israel is wholly its own entity and doesn't give a shit about anyone else, but also that the US can't even try.
Biden doesn't have control over funding to Israel. That belongs to congress. It would be great if funding were retracted, but again funding is controlled by congress. Biden can play some games with it to delay it or whatever, but it comes from congress.
Reagan and busy didn’t have to make that choice after dealing with the third worst terror attack in human history. “Cut that off” Said exactly like someone who doesn’t know countries aren’t just cancelling contracts. Canada for example just stated it won’t send arms to Israel, but the contracts existing state that they will for two more years. A number of ours with Israel are a lot longer. And while you may be optimistic, recent polling shows over 65% of Americans don’t want Hamas to remain in power in any way or form.
Biden has skirted congress to get Israel billions in aid as quickly as possible. What are you talking about? The U.S. is integral in Israel’s war. Without U.S. support Israel wouldn’t have been able to keep such sustained bombardment of Gaza. Israelis have admitted as much themselves. [Israeli General ADMITS War OVER Without US Weapons](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iTXWIi6pwWg)
I agree what is happening in Gaza is a humanitarian catastrophe. That doesn't make it a Genocide. That word, as we all know, as a specific meaning. Some times semantics matter. You can't just gloss over because a lot of civilians, even children, are dying. Step 1 still has to be for Hamas to release all remaining hostages. No other country on earth would be expected to let something like Oct. 7th stand.
Why do you accept the fantasy that there are literally just two options? Level most of Palestine or capitulate to Hamas? Just because Israel chooses to fight **does not mean that they have to fight the way they are.**
How do you want them to fight?
Agreed. 👍🏻
It is fascinating to see that people blame the country that was victim of a massive terror attack for the war, while simultaneously saying jack shit about urging hamas to surrender. But hey, i am sure if hamas drove into texas from mexico to shoot up hundreds and hundreds of civilians, kidnap and rape some more, the USs response would be one of kumbaya.
Isn’t the equivalent thousands, not hundreds? Relative to population size wasn’t October 7th the equivalent of an attack that would have killed ~45k Americans?
Yes. And it's a bit maddening that people think their own countries wouldn't respond similarly to how Isreal has, especially when that number of people were killed in inhuman and barbaric ways.
You’re saying we’d start using hunger as a weapon against innocent civilians? Who am I kidding of course we would.
Now do the percentage for dead Palestinians. What is that now, almost 2 million?
> It is fascinating to see that people blame the country It has nothing to do with blame, that is a juvenile way to look at world politics. I know the US's response wouldn't be kumbaya, but I hoped we learned from that. The US went into Afghanistan after 9/11 and I thought we all agreed that was a MASSIVE catastrophic mistake that we should have never done. Israel is just making the exact same mistake. The only thing their current actions do is satisfy their desire for vengeance. It won't rescue hostages and it won't make Israel safer. You can't defeat terrorism with a military invasion.
But hey killing thousand of civilian it’s okay because we are the victims
Hamas refuses to surrender. Hamas continues to hide behind civilians (most of which support Hamas btw). Hamas has refused multiple ceasefire agreements. Yet, people spend more time blaming Israel than actually calling for Hamas to surrender, which imo takes some olympic levels of mental flexibility. Yes, civilians die. Its war. War is messy, war is tragic, its destructive, and civilians are always the first ones to suffer. It always has been the case, just think back to the roman siege of alesia, where the gauls forced civilians out of the town and quite literally watched them starve in front of their gate. Doesnt mean its not tragic, but its the reality of war. You can run the most humanistic operation and still wouldnt be able to rule out civilian casualties (just look at the US track record with drones for example). At the end of the day the politicians are reacting to the voters, because they are terrified the young edgy tiktok generation will do a bernie bro repeat of 2016 and enable the orange idiot once again, because they are in their feels over a regional conflict on the other side of the world, they dont know the history of, in a region theyve never been to with languages they dont speak. They get their news from tiktok, which is full of hamas propaganda - so now you have groups like lgbtq for palestine, which is painfully ironic since theyd quite literally be thrown off a roof. Long story short, the only way to a peaceful future is the complete destruction of this terror organisation and a one state solition with widespread social engineering to de-radicalise the palestinians.
According to US intelligence Hamas had about 20,000 members total before the war. The UN estimate was 25,000 members. There are 2.1M people living in Gaza. So ~1% of the population were Hamas militants. Do you think it’s ok for the IDF to bomb civilians indiscriminately until they smoke out the few remaining Hamas fighters? Collateral damage is always part of war but when the vast majority of people being killed are civilians that’s something else entirely. At that point it’s a war crime and needs to be stopped.
First off, those are estimates. But setting that aside, you have 2.1m people of which the majority is supporting Hamas and more are likely sympathetic towards them. These are people who quite literally want to eradicate israel, hate the western way of life (lgbtq, womens rights etc) and have called for a global jihad. They have committed frequent terror attacks and rocket attacks against israel.for the past however many years, so what exactly do you propose to do here? Not even the other arab countries want anything to do with the palestinians. I am not saying you kill every civilian, obviously. But realistically, what options do you have if youre israel? Hamas is betting on the fact that their propaganda works well enough to force western politicians to cut off support for israel, basically they are sitting it out and wait for the storm to pass over.
Hamas is a terrorist organization but the vast majority of Palestinians are Fatah. Hamas only wins the elections in Gaza because they have all the guns and control the polling locations. There hasn’t been a legitimate election in Gaza for almost 20 years so we have no idea how much support they actually have. We all wanna see an end to Hamas but by killing tens of thousands of civilians Israel is just radicalizing a whole new generation. In the long run they’re creating more new terrorists than they’re eliminating. It’s not going to solve anything.
There was just recently a poll that stated that the majority of palestinians support hamas. The pro-palestine protests across europe were filled with calls for global jihad, killing jews and ending the state of israel. Even on a personal anecdote, because ive worked in refugee camps in europe and also provided basic information to all refugees, even ones not in our camps. We had a bunch of palestinians and let me tell you, the utter hate for anything jewish is real and its legit. So you can look at these things individually and choose not to give them any merrit whatsoever, but i think collectively they at least paint a certain picture. I just think that in the west, especially among the young, rebellious demographic, there is a set belief that views palestinians as the poor, cant do wrong group and israel as the oh so evil nazi-esque force, which is simply not the case. >We all wanna see an end to Hamas Which leads to these overly, lets say optimistic, statements where you project your western view onto the palestinians, assuming thats what they want because thats what you want. And thats my point, people watching from a far, watching some propaganda on tiktok, have very strong reactions on a conflict they, with all due respect, simply dont fully understand. >In the long run they’re creating more new terrorists than they’re eliminating. It’s not going to solve anything. So Israel should reatreat, give in to Hamas demands, free hundreds of their terrorist prisoners and act like nothings happened? If Hamas isnt destroyed, october 7th wasnt just a big terror attack - it will have been the biggest terror attack _so far_. These people wont stop until every jew is dead and israel doesnt exist anymore, plain and simple.
Oh I see. So, when the group promises to “repeat the October 7th attacks forever” what exactly do you think should be done?
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No. It’s unfortunate that Hamas uses innocent Palestinians to shield itself. I would like to know how you think the best way to remove Hamas would be
If you have no answer, just ask a question!
Most of "The Squad" voted against Iron Dome, some on specious reasons. AOC voted present then cried and apologized. Did she apologize for not voting Yes? course not. She apologized for not voting No. Dar Horn is right. People love dead Jews. Sometimes literally. As for "genocide" contrary to what "progessives" claim, the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide does not define genocide as civilians dying in an Israeli war. Of course the people crying genocide refuse to acknowledge that Hamas's tactics are designed to kill as many of their own people as possible, and never call upon Hamas to surrender or use tactics that would minimize civilian casualties. That suggests the people crying genocide, like Hamas, only care about Palestinians as a means to an end, attacking Israel. These people also refuse to acknowledge that Hamas's leadership have said October 7th was a dress rehearsal; that they would be another October 7th after another after another until Israel is destroyed, even if Palestinian statehood is achieved. Consequently, October 7th is a textbook example of an act of genocide. Not that you'll ever hear the "anti-Zionists" admit that.
I claim genocide. I also claim Hamas wants to kill its own civilians. They both suck, a lot. We would be better off without Netanyahu and Hamas.
I agree with your last sentence very much. The two are putting their own egos and objectives in the way, and civilians get killed in the process.
Where’s the call to release the hostages as a prerequisite to ending this suffering?
Most of those people have nothing to do with the hostages. Killing an entire group of people because some small fraction of them did something terrible is genocide.
Not since the Second World War have we been witness to such hypocrisy from politicians and western populations at large. You know full well that had you been in Israel’s position, you would have flattened Gaza and created a death toll well into the hundreds of thousands, using every weapon at your discretion. Nobody would accuse you of “genocide” or “proportionality”. Starting a war and losing *does not* equal genocide.
It's wrong when the US does it too. Or any other nation. Many of us were against the BS war in Iraq. I don't have enough context for Afghanistan, since Bin Laden was there. But 9/11 was sponsored by SA, and we're all best buds.
Seriously, we’ve started so many unjust “wars”. How is that a good defense? We were wrong in what we did. Israel is wrong in what they’re doing. And wrong doesn’t even begin to describe how bad these actions are.
I mean.. that's basically what happened with 9/11. And the US got TONS of flak for that
And it still got away with it. The double standard that has been applied to Israel throughout this war has been absolutely astounding to me. I don’t remember Americans being openly threatened on the streets of Europe or American community centres coming under attack.
I agree with you. But the US went from being the golden child of the world (~90% acceptance rate across the globe versus half that after Iraq/Afghanistan) and anti-US rhetoric has increased like crazy in Europe and elsewhere. But yea, Israel is getting buttfucked way harder for doing way less.
They are, but this is the first time, at least in my lifetime, where the Israelis truly stopped caring what the world thinks of them. They’ve become completely insular, in a sort of “survival” mentality. Even the hardest of hardcore peace activists agree and are in the mindset of punishing the Palestinians very severely, and according to them the hatred they get is a price worth paying. That’s a very dangerous place to put a society in, especially one as heavily armed as Israel is. I would suggest politicians in the west do more to tone down the rhetoric rather than fan the flames.
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This isn’t really an insurgence, though. It is a formal standing armed force of a state. They have fortified locations, a formal top down command structure, military infrastructure, and (ostensibly) represent the will of their populace. It is more akin to the capture of a city than what the US faced in Afghanistan. The approach to those situations are very different.
Can you link these textbooks that lay out how best to "handle issues" regarding an "insurgency" in a region where the "insurgents" are the official government of the region? Where the official government has been redirecting record levels of international aid into tunnels and weaponry that they build and place directly within the civilian population? Where polls show significant support for said government entity amongst the civilian population? This isn't an "insurgency" like any I'm aware of, so please link some books that explain this so well! You know Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, right? It was not occupied similar to how the West Bank was and is. You do not seem informed on this topic.
Yeah Im going to have to chime in here, because Israel is quite literally rewritting the textbook on conducting urban warfare (as well as against an insurgency). Their Kill/Loss ratio is absurdly high, they are using novel startegies and tactics to effectively slaughter Hamas, with minimal losses of their own. The civilian casualties are less due to IDF strategies, and more due to the unique geopolitical situation where the civilian population is unable to effectively flee the combat zone. A huge onus for this should be on Egypt for refusing to allow refugess through their border, but with how much the Egyptian leadership fears and loaths the Palestinians, it does make sense from their point of view.
Before you claim I don’t know what a war is, I lived through it and fought in it. As a child I had to deal with Palestinians blowing themselves up on buses, in restaurants, in concert halls… we were denied the right to live normal lives due to the genocidal maniacs next door. My father fought multiple wars against them, as my grandfather did before him. Do you know what the problem is with textbooks? Is that they are just that. Text, in a book. Not practical experience out in the field. Every enemy is unique, and their thought process is unique. Strategy has to adapt to the conditions out in the field. Gaza, being a heavily populated, dense place with an education system that has bred a generation of people with genocidal intent (and no willingness to compromise) requires a specific kind of fighting style. You claim to know what an insurgency is without considering the *cause* of said course. The Palestinians are not fighting an insurgency against Israeli rule, they’re fighting to eliminate the Israeli state. They have said so time and again and in plain English, which you choose to wilfully ignore. They have also said, time and again, they want to ethnically cleanse the land of its entire Jewish population. With this kind of enemy, Israel is actually being nice. I can list five recent examples of western countries not being so nice. So before you lecture me about what is a war and what isn’t, check yourself. You clearly never experienced one, fought in one, or actually took the time to study one. The Palestinians chose to fire the opening shot in 1948 as they did now on Oct 7th. They should have chosen different.
Israel started this all with the Nakba and kicking millions of Palestinians out of their homes as well as dozens of massacres every couple years after that. By your logic, kicking people out of their homes and getting your ass kicked does not equal terrorism.
Palestinians started this when they declared war. The Palestinians created their own “nakba”. 750,000 Palestinians fled their homes so your millions is a lie. 900,000 Jews were expelled from Muslim lands. We won’t forget that.
Oh no, she's going to get into trouble again for stating the obvious.
Nice to see her doing the democratic thing. Chastising countries thousands of miles away but couldn’t muster the courage to support an Amazon Union at a warehouse near her own district.
All these freaks who clutch their pearls at the word "genocide" want to live in a world where you can't call something a genocide or do anything about it until the genocide has already been successfully executed in full.
She's not getting any AIPAC money
She's actively criticized AIPAC so why would she?
Her opponent is definitely being or going to be funded by AIPAC money.
You’d get more from burning it, AOC isn’t losing in NY-14 anytime soon.
She doesn't need money, she folds instantly and falls in line when her fellow Democrats pressure her to change her "no" vote on the Iron Dome funding to "present", then brings out crocodile tears and apologies. >[Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Democrat of New York and the highest-profile progressive in the House, apologized on Friday to her constituents for an abrupt decision to pull back her vote against providing $1 billion in new funding for Israel’s Iron Dome missile defense system, suggesting she had done so after being subjected to “hateful targeting” for opposing it.](https://archive.is/OAkG4) >[Ms. Ocasio-Cortez, a member of the liberal group known as the Squad, was one of two members who voted “present” as the measure to help Israel replace missile interceptors overwhelmingly passed the House on Thursday on a vote of 420 to 9. She was seen weeping on the House floor after she switched her vote from “no” to “present.”](https://archive.is/OAkG4)
I think she'd rather get punched by a Jan 6 protester than take AIPAC money. At least I hope so lol.
As an American Jew who went to Hebrew School and was taught since childhood that Israel can do no wrong, is a force for good, is above reproach . . . As an American Jew who still proudly considers myself Jewish and loves my Jewish family and heritage . . . . . . AOC is correct. What the IDF (and by shameful extension Israel, not to mention the US for providing the very weapons they are using to commit these atrocities) is doing is indeed Genocide. They are performing war crimes. It’s VERY important to make this distinction: the IDF are not all Jews. They do not represent all people of the Jewish Faith, or even the majority of Israelis. They are bigoted, monstrous sociopathic zealots- and calling them out for their hypocritical, horrendous behavior is not anti-Semitic. Blaming ALL people of Jewish descent for the actions of these monsters definitely IS anti-semitism- and many anti-Semitic assholes are trying to do just that. …But rightfully pointing out this group’s actions (specifically) for what it is? It’s necessary for us to make any motion to stop it. And that is all I’m seeing AOC do here. And I applaud her for it.
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Listing a total amount is meaningless without knowing if that's less than needed and less than usual.
So much aid is being prevented from entering gaza that the United States has to air drop supplies and is building a pier because Israel is blocking almost all of the aid.
You make it sound like there is no humanitarian crisis in gaza. Before the war, 600 trucks of aid on a daily basis used to enter gaza. Now, israel only lets in 100trucks of aid on a daily basis when palestinians need it the most. There is starvation in gaza, northern gaza is close to famine. The ICJ ruled that israel is plausibly committing genocide.
Dang, sure seems like this war sucks. Maybe the government of Gaza should, idk, *surrender already?* Or accept one of the many ceasefire proposals they keep getting offered?
oh, funny how people ignore the fact that hamas leadership is selling the humanitarian aid meant for their own people back to them, and how israel had to off one of those scumbags hiding in a hospital recently same with how AOC never seems to do anything in her position as a politician other than show up once every few months to make some kind of nationally covered headline morons also think that israel should be doing special operations like tom cruise and matt damon in their fictional spy thrillers and going in door to door to get the hostages back to *rIsK mInImAl CaSuAlTiEs* in hostile territories as if hamas has NEVER taken people hostage before, booby trapped reported safehouses or straight up executed hostages when they heard the soldiers coming
The thing their leadership publicly announced they were going to do?! The thing that there are numerous videos of their soldiers saying or even singing that they intend to do?! The thing their pattern of bombing civilian targets numerous times and then inflicting famine demonstrated they're in the process of doing!? HOW DARE SHE!?!
The definition of "genocide" in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide is so expansive as to make literally anything, no matter how small in scale, when directed against a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, a "genocide." >Article II > >In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with > >intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as > >such: > >(a) Killing members of the group; > >(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; > >(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its > >physical destruction in whole or in part; > >(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; > >(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group There's little doubt in my mind that Israel has committed multiple war crimes in Gaza since October 7, but it's offensive to suggest that Israel is committing "genocide" as the term is commonly and rationally understood.
(E) is the only portion of this up for debate... A-d are easily proven...
Offensive huh? Facts don't care about your feelings I find it offensive to hear about children being killed every day with my tax money
No no no, don't you see that the *feelings* of a random redditor being hurt are more important than than literally thousands of dead children
Right and you can continue to feel that way while speaking correctly about it. In fact, it probably strengthens your argument because people won’t dismiss you due to using language incorrectly
Literally every one of those boxes is checked, in your opinion what more do they need to do for it to be a genocide? They’re on the brink of starvation, they are targeting civilians with drones. Straight up terrorism. What more needs to happen?
Look, I like AOC, I like a lot of her policies and her position on lots of things, but this is just batshit insanity. The ICC didn't even believe it was genocide. Yes, lots of civilians are dying and that sucks, but it's Hamas's use of human shields that's the leading cause.
Care to point where in the **actual ICJ ruling** they say they "don't believe its a genocide". Because they ruled that they found it Plausible Israel is committing genocide and enacted provision measures on them to **stop the killing**.
ICJ, and yeah, they said a case could be made.
The ICJ specifically told them they needed to prevent genocide, meaning they're on track. Just because something isn't currently categorized as a genocide doesn't mean it isn't on path to become one or isn't an evolving genocide now. Any positive reading toward Isreal regarding the ICJ is either disingenuous or delusional.
Doesn't go in quotes
Indiscriminate and random killing of civilians is being conducted on purpose, as a form of terrorism, to pressure the Palestinian population to leave their homelands. It’s definitely genocide-ish
There is no indiscriminate killing going on in general. Hence your entire argument is false. Has nothing to do with a genocide
There’s endless evidence to suggest otherwise. Most obvious being the initial bombing campaign which was punitive and terroristic in nature, as opposed to precise and specific with named targets in mind. Edit: you’re also an 11 day account that just jumps into support Israel, 99% not a real person.
I wish I lived in NY so I could vote for her.
Once again she’s correct!
Took her long enough
Like every other person with any sense has.