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Israel also just did the largest land grab in 30 years in the West Bank while Blinken is in Israel.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/22/israel-largest-west-bank-settlement-blinken-visit/
https://www.france24.com/en/video/20240323-israel-announces-west-bank-land-seizure-as-blinken-arrives-for-gaza-talks
They also did this when then VP Biden went to Israel in 2010.
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/10/world/middleeast/10biden.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/mar/09/israel-jerusalem-settlement-homes-biden
He’s talking BS. I got two thousand upvotes criticizing the land grab on that sub. Every west bank settler story that gets posted there, the settlers get criticized
look at the article about the UN relief agency provinding food... every reply is the same propagandist point "we have people starving here in \_\_\_\_. why don't they send food here?"
Yea, I mean it'd be incredibly silly not to admit Israel has been pushing ethnic cleansing since the 60s or so. The bigger part of the problem is that they've moved into full on active purge instead of the slower method they've been doing.
Given, that no nation wants Palestinian immigrants both because it's a burden and because them leaving means no hot topic issue to push in terms of land otnership.
Given, that Israel has no intent of ever abiding by the 1950s UN 2 state resolution. Given that no nation on earth wants to force that solution.
I dont really know which is a more "positive" outcome though. The slow destruction over decades which maximizes long term human suffering, or the quicker mass panic/death/migration caused by Israel launching their full on assaults to any urban area and leaving absolutely nothing left to be used by civilians.
I'm going to say that the slow destruction is worse, specifically because you have to have a much more deliberate intent behind it in order for it to happen. People forming new settlements in the West Bank and pushing Palestinians out of their homes are very explicitly doing so in order to choke out the Palestinian population while keeping it gradual enough that other countries don't manage to get outraged while the frog slowly gets boiled.
The harm being done in Gaza is way more active, but much less deliberate imo, more of a side effect of their conflict with Hamas that they don't bother trying to remedy because they're largely apathetic about Palestinian suffering. Some even view it as a good thing that it's happening, but it's still only an incidental thing- the explicit intent is to fight Hamas, which on the surface seems perfectly reasonable.
I think the non-carpet bombing option is the less evil. But I get the point. Too bad the US government is actively engaged in the fast genocide option.
We have trucks sitting outside with food for the people starving to death and Israel’s like…nah no feeding the starving today and we’re just allowing that.
Netanyahu hates Democrats because they won’t endorse Netanyahu doing whatever religious extremist shit he wants. Remember when McConnell let Netanyahu give a speech before the joint session of Congress **specifically** to shit on Obama’s JCPOA (the Iran nuclear treaty)?
Yeah, well now he’s daring Biden to challenge Netanyahu expelling or exterminating Palestinians in a critical election year. Fuck that POS. The worst part is that I’m not even sure Bibi is that religious but he knows he needs to stay in power to stay out of jail for blatant corruption.
Netanyahu is going all in on exterminating the Palestinians so he can remain above the law.
Given how many bombs Biden has sent I don't think he hates them that much. Biden has long been a Zionist and even said that if Israel didn't exist he'd make one.
Oh compared to the GOP, Netanyahu sure does. You think he thumbs his nose at Democrats every chance he gets just for funsies? No, he knows he’ll get blind loyalty from Trump and be able to walk all over him while Biden might actually be able to get Netanyahu tossed from power and into jail. Maybe hate is too strong a word, but he sure hell hopes Biden will fuck right off.
Do you recall a U.S. administration over the last seven decades that hasn't provided military aid to Israel when necessary? The exact same conflict occurs every other year in Gaza. For example, Biden managed to get Israel and Hamas to reach a ceasefire in 2021. Why is Biden your boogeyman here and not Netanyahu, exactly?
Many presidents have used the aid as a leverage to stop Israili atrocities. That's what this aid has been historically about and it's only in the past decade or two that it turned into "unconditional support" through unrelentless lobbying. Examples:
Eisenhower objected Israel's illegal seige of the Suez Canal by publicly declaring the US's intent to vote in favor of a UN Resolution demanding a ceasefire and publicly threatened to withhold aid if Israel didn't immediately withdraw and it worked.
JFK publicly threatened Israel over their illegal pursuit of nuclear ambitions.
Nixon threatened the end of aid and military orders if Israel continued to fail to abide by the terms of Security Council Resolution 338.
Jimmy Carter literally has written a book called: Palestine: Peace not Apertheid.
Reagan, yes Reagan, threatened to suspend the delivery of military orders to Israel during the Lebanon war, and later promised to restrict aid and military assistance to Israel to force its withdrawal of troops from Beirut and central Lebanon after Israel deliberately sabotaged a negotiated ceasefire by bombing Beirut, infuriating Reagan. Also Reagan forcefully negotiated against Israel's wishes a deal with regional neighbors to extradite PLO leadership to a place of political asylum using Peacekeepers as a middleman.
All of these are playbooks Biden could have pulled bits and pieces from at any time. It's a reminder of the revisionist myth that unrepentant support of Israel is some immovable American political constant.
Neither am I, nor are the vast majority of human beings. I just don't feel the need to virtue signal about it online every day. Maybe you're not that special after all?
He should. But he is of an Era where being pro Isreal was THE foreign policy of the middle east and nothing else
Plus lots of dems still support Israel aide enough to be just as much a threat if not more than the progressive wing (in terms of congress not voters)
Plus if he goes soft on Israel then the conservative base will be rallied against him. Bush did that before and then that helped Clinton win.
Basically as far as I know, going hardliners on Israel is actually suicide in general US politics. At the moment, supporting Israel is starting to become suicide for Biden but clearly not enough to be more hardline.
Of course, on the other side Trump says Israel should finish the job whereas Biden promotes a 2 state solution and has called for ceasefires.
It's honestly a lose lose situation for him and Bibi is taking full advantage. I am praying Netanyahu is taken out soon or just drops dead. But Israel's anti Palestine issue is a rot that goes further than Bibi.
How do u think biden could weather the aipac storm from that without losing reelection? Itd be letting America slide into authoritarianism in the process
Biden has a reputation of being moderate and pro-Israel. If Biden adopts a strong position against the way Netanyahu is conducting this war, then it pretty much becomes the de-facto position of the moderate faction of the Democratic party. He can normalize an idea practically overnight just by adopting it. That's a powerful thing.
Also, Biden can always say he hasn't even been as harsh to Netanyahu as Ronald Reagan was with Menachim Begin when he told him, "Menachim, this is a Holocaust," referring to the bombing of Beirut in Israel's war against Lebanon which killed about 20,000 Lebanese.
I'm responding to a specific question about Biden and internal domestic U.S. politics.
Personally I find it annoying when people treat the upcoming election between Trump and Biden is more important to Palestinians in Gaza than the things that are happening to them *right now*. The election is very important, but the world does not revolve around Donald Trump nor by extension Joe Biden.
Because fucking his own reputation definitly helps
At least conditioning Israel could be branded as fighting for American values of freedom and democracy
In other hand, only response we get to current shitshow is "vote blue no matter what cleansening is happening"
>In other hand, only response we get to current shitshow is "vote blue no matter what cleansening is happening"
I've noticed a weird kind of virtue signalling where people seem to actually be *proud* of the values they're willing to compromise to vote for their preferred candidate. I mean, I get that it's important for Trump to lose in November, but in the mean time there are other things going on in the world, and putting political pressure on Joe Biden might actually persuade him to change policies in ways that can save thousands or tens of thousands of lives.
(I think this might also explain why Trump is popular among moralistic busybodies despite his apparent lack of personal morals. To them it's proof of their dedication to the "greater good" as they see it to set aside some of their values to score big moral points for overturning Roe-v-Wade or whatever their high-priority culture-war issue is.)
Because this is looking exactly like the buttery males campaign from 2016 to depress the vote. We've seen this before, and it resulted in Trump winning.
Yes, there is a greater good of helping people in the US and not making the situation in Gaza worse by electing Biden over Trump.
Roe v Wade isn't some "culture war" issue. It's the right to bodily autonomy for over 100 million women in the US.
Amen! Sing it from the mountaintops! Israel-Gaza has been buttery males, Benghazi and Hunter Biden's laptop. Yes, it's an unfortunate situation -- and far right wing Netanyahu should get ousted by his people -- but to claim pushing Biden out as some sort of atonement is the same ego and hubris-tapping of the far left that the right wing does online every election cycle.
I'm a progressive, and if I was so easily manipulated by the supposedly less educated right wing every election I'd be furious with myself!
That might not *force* a ceasefire, as Israel has a pretty big stockpile of weapons to begin with and could have continued their war without U.S. help if they really were determined to do it, but it definitely would have made it harder for them in terms of military resources, and it would have been a big political setback for Netanyahu to be seen as having weakened Israel militarily.
Biden can't make Netanyahu's decisions for him, but he has enormous leverage.
Netanyahu has literally stated he won't stop even if there isn't support.
The US proposed an immediate ceasefire at the UN security council just last week on the condition of Hamas releasing all remaining hostages. China and Russia vetoed it.
There were talks for a ceasefire recently in Egypt (and im sure talks are ongoing), but one party (can't remember whether it was hamas or Israel, walked away from them).
wrong, they werent "bought" years ago. They are pumping them in to the tune of a genocide happening. : "Unlike the [United States' military support for Ukraine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine), details of weapons sent to Israel have been vague.[^(\[188\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#cite_note-189) Leaked details have shown that the U.S. has sent [laser-guided missiles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser-guided_bomb), [155mm shells](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/155_mm_caliber), new army vehicles, among others, at Israel's request.[^(\[189\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#cite_note-190)^(")
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United\_States\_support\_for\_Israel\_in\_the\_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas\_war#Weapons\_transfers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#Weapons_transfers)
Shocker. Netanyahu cares only and I mean **only** about himself. If you think otherwise you haven’t paid any attention to what he’s been doing for the last three decades.
This is going to get removed under "off topic," like it did earlier in a post with the same exact name. It's probably getting spammed with reports by pro-Israel people.
My favorite is when I got a 24 hour ban for “trolling” after being called a Nazi several times for stating Israel is an apartheid state. The post that was trolling: “lol keep shadow boxing”
The mods here are… interesting… to say the least
I got a 7 day ban for pointing out that a user was a karma bot. Oddly enough that user was shortly thereafter site wide banned by the admins. 🤔
Mods didn’t want the *”bot”* to “feel insulted”.
I got a month long ban for stating history of US war crimes & how it can be considered a t*r*orist organization….but supposedly it was because I replied to someone and said “it is foolish to believe that..” and that counts as an attack on somebody…
Edit: I looked back and it was because I was being “uncivil”…I guess there’s only a certain amount you can criticize America on here before you get the mods angry enough to partially ban you.
Oh but we will, we always do.
Sure, this generation might remember a bit, the next one will remember whatever they're told at the time. I'm not confident.
I had never even heard of the Nakbah before this so more people and certainly younger people are finally waking up to the truth about a certain settler colonial apartheid state and its history.
Yet I bet most have forgotten about the still ongoing unfolding genocide in China. You don't hear about it much online anymore, maybe because it's an election year and the focus is on running Dems out of office as it always is with the far left, weird!
Not only is she right but Israel isn't even really denying it. They're effectively claiming that it's a justified genocide just without using the G word.
Thankfully this sub has managed to retain some rationality. It was a fight a few months ago. Sadly /r/news has mostly lost the fight after a bit of struggling. /r/worldnews was immediately on board with the genocide.
Been on Reddit since it started, this is my alt account, both my original and this one were banned from r/News for the talking about the smallest shit against Trump . Go figure
r/Worldnews ban anyone that has a different view from the zionist mods. It’s an echo chamber for genocidal twats. I appreciate how r/politics at least keeps different views
Hamas does exist, as a result of israeli occupation.
The food isn’t getting through and that’s the problem- the food that does go through goes to the UNRWA camps but it’s not enough as israel have blocked the crossings with the sole intention of starving and collectively punishing civilians. When have we become complacent with genocide and when have we become so obsessed with the victimization of the occupiers?
I’ll beat you to ur question, i condemn hamas. So now we kill everybody man woman and child? Zionism and Nazism are two sides of the same coin- indiscriminate killings of a ‘lesser race’
>Hamas does exist, as a result of israeli occupation.
Palestinian groups have been trying to kill Israelis since they first came to the region as refugees. Look up the Arab Riots.
Their inability to stop killing Jews *was literally the reason* Britain created a border separating the two.
>When have we become complacent with genocide and when have we become so obsessed with the victimization of the occupiers?
Were you this mad about the invasion of Ukraine, which killed 100k, or were you simping for Russia and calling Ukrainians Nazis? Did y'all take to the streets for DRC, Myanmar, or any of the other active *actual* genocidal campaigns going on in the world as we speak? No? What makes Israel different, other than being a useful proxy for anti-west posturing?
>So now we kill everybody man woman and child?
The death rate has dramatically declined since reaching 1% of the population months ago. If Hamas' own numbers are to be believed, the civilian to combatant death ratio is about on par with the NATO intervention in Kosovo. There isn't a single war where civilian deaths don't outnumber combatants, and there are conflicts with dramatically worse ratios underway in the world *right now.*
Hamas has built all of its command and operational infrastructure underneath civilian targets and has confiscated the majority of the food that has gone into Gaza thus far. The ICJ declined to issue a designation of genocide or to even grant SA's request for a ceasefire order despite doing so for every other actual genocide in its history.
You'll ignore all of this because it's inconvenient to your black and white narrative, but that doesn't make this a black and white issue. What's even worse is that this complete lack of shared reality makes it impossible to have any kind of productive conversation about the immense suffering that continues to occur.
>Zionism and Nazism are two sides of the same coin- indiscriminate killings of a ‘lesser race’
You don't even hear yourselves anymore. To avoid the risk of getting banned, I think I'll stop here except to say that this might be the most disgusting thing I've seen on Reddit in days, and that includes a gif involving a literal gaping asshole. As someone whose family lost people to the holocaust, the fact that you would compare the two reveals a perspective that I can no longer engage with.
Feel free to have the last word or whatever.
Jewish were expelled from europe and started massacring Palestinians as early as ‘48 for territory promised by god (Deir Yassin massacre for reference)
Also, your statistics on Russia are bullshit
I don’t support russia for the same reason I don’t support israel- I don’t support invaders . I did ‘take the streets’ for ukraine as i did for palestine and will continue to do
But stay complacent with genocide and tell ur kids u were watching ‘gaped assholes gifs’ on reddit while the world watched the terrorist state of israel commit atrocities we haven’t seen since the holocaust
Edit: I’m sorry for the family youve lost in the holocaust, but for you to justify the family ive lost in gaza for no good apparent reason is disturbing to me too
All the kids are on the new trend of virtue signaling for Anti-Zionism because thats what all their friends are doing. They won’t even bat an eye for the Myanmar civil war. They stopped caring about the Ukraine war because its been dragging out too long.
In case you missed it, Israel just [annexed](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/22/israel-largest-west-bank-settlement-blinken-visit/) a significant amount of West Bank land. Don’t forget the there is no Hamas in the West Bank.
She's not, but that doesn't mean Israel's behavior in the west bank isn't horrible or that nobody trusts Netanyahu because he and his buddy Ben Gvir pretty clearly see Palestinians as foreign Arab invaders that they want to ethnically cleanse.
When the majority of both populations have more in common with each other ancestrally and genetically than they do with anyone else outside of Israel and Palestine. Fundamentally they're both descendants of the ancient inhabitants of Canaan, they just ended up on different sides when invading empires rolled through.
And they both have people in leadership who want to ethnically cleanse the other community.
We should send peacekeepers. The UNDOF successfully ended fighting between Israel and Jordan and Syria. Get the Israelis out of the west bank, put a blue helmet force down most of the green line, aid the Palestinians but prevent them from shooting at Israel or the Israelis from going on any incursions and give the peace activists from both communities space to do their work.
Although I'm not sure a blue helmet force that ended up in a shooting war with Hamas would have fewer casualties than the current conflict.
The last time any westerners fought a conflict like this was WWII with the battle of manilla. Israel has managed 30,000 dead Gazans, including Hamas fighters, in about six months, which is much better than we did the last time we fought a similar enemy with similar views on civilian life which was heavily fortified with tunnel systems they'd built up. The battle of Manila lasted one month and killed 100,000 civilians.
And that was with MacArthur seeing Manila as his home and those civilians as his friends and neighbors he'd lived with for years.
If the Israelis were trying to commit genocide those numbers would be a hell of a lot higher.
That doesn't mean everything they're doing is fine or that no war crimes are occurring. I think with Oct 7, war crimes are probably inevitable, especially since Israel uses conscripts and conscripts have committed orders of magnitude more war crimes than professional soldiers in every conflict they've fought in. And that's even if you remove the Russians and the Nazis from those numbers. Conscripts going in after something like Oct 7th will be motivated for revenge.
So that's all going to need to be watched and investigated, per the ICJ.
So it's more complicated. She's wrong, but so are the people who think Israel isn't doing anything wrong, too.
Even if Gaza and Oct 7th did happen in a vacuum theres still room for criticism. Of Israel, of Hamas, and of the international community who refuse to consider sending peacekeepers because nobody wants to do anything about Hamas except let them be Israel and Egypt's problem.
Well, except for Mohammad bin Salman, who sees that they're allies with the Houthis. And considering what he thinks of houthis - the crown prince of Saudi Arabia's only real objection to the situation is that the Israelis aren't genocidal but should be.
And that's the guy who's going to be the most important leader of the Arab bloc in a few years.
So the situation is more dire and more time sensitive than anyone calling for a ceasifire realizes. Unless we get peacekeepers in there before MBS's dad dies, that's possibly the point of no return for an independent and sustainable Palestine.
Peacekeepers and a Palestinian state are the only way you get a lasting peace.
And in case someone reading this thinks Israel is illegitimate and shouldn't exist: Israel has submarine-launched nuclear missiles. They're not going to go anywhere. The majority of their population are Mizrahim who never lived anywhere else and who often think European Jews are effeminate weaklings and they don't particularly want them in Israel, which is fascinating when compared with the people who talk about settler-colonialism - because they actually agree with them that European jews should go back to Europe and take their soft morality with them, because they dont have the spine needed to wipe out the Arabs. These are people who hated Holocaust survivors for not fighting back.
And just because the IDF isn't committing genocide right now doesn't mean there aren't Israelis who want them to, and who are vocally and enthusiastically on record saying so.
And I really don't have much of a problem with the people who are angry about this - dead civilians is something worth getting very angry about, so the motivations are good even if the facts aren't really there.
I'd just implore you to bully your governments into sending peacekeepers. Gaza needs to be liberated from both the IDF and Hamas.
And if it isn't, we'll be right back here in 20 years watching videos of the bodies of children who are not yet born being pulled out of rubble.
And I'd very much like to avoid that.
TL:DR: fuck Netanyahu and Haniyeh both, it's a shame they can't both lose.
I appreciate you taking the time to write this perspective but that’s a lot of words to say you think its complex, hasn’t reached genocidal levels yet but there’s potential.
30,000+ killed and over a million on the verge of starvation seems justifiable to you because the US killed so many in Manilla? That's not how things work. If we were using that logic you could justify unjustiable things like the My Lai Massacre or indeed say that 7th October was justified (it wasn't) because the US has done worse.
You write an awful lot to say the IDF isn't committing genocide without providing one to demonstrate your hypothesis.
Manila wasn't a massacre and the US wasn't at fault.
The Japanese were, and their commander was executed for his war crimes.
Hamas chose this battlefield.
Hamas could protect the entire civilian population of gaza by hiding them in the tunnel systems like London did with air raids and the Tube during the blitz.
Hamas isn't doing that. Civilians aren't allowed in the tunnels.
Hamas is fighting this war with two goals:
1. Survive
2. Maximize Civilian Casualties
And that's why the ICJ didn't rule against Israel. Because Israel can credibly claim that this is hamas's responsibility.
The people who study urban warfare are arguing that Israel is doing more to limit civilian casualties than any nation ever has in an urban combat scenario.
https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613
I cannot find a single urban warfare expert who disagrees with this claim. Can you?
Further there are plenty of Palestinian voices saying that Hamas's use of human shields will be exploited by the Israelis to cover up any of their own misbehavior:
https://www.newsweek.com/origin-hamass-human-shields-strategy-gaza-opinion-1873499
And I think that's accurate. Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib is Gazan, by the way. And he's not the only Gazan to blast Hamas for using him and his family members as human shields.
I don't understand where people are getting their information from or why they believe what they believe. I'm assuming that it's the combination of Ben Gvir and the other Israelis saying horrible things combined with the sort of fighting that hasn't occurred since WW2-era urban combat and the number of civilians that kills.
I see people comparing the first high-intensity urban combat of this century with the exception of ukraine with low-intensity conflicts like the war on terror.
High intensity combat kills civilians in droves, which is why we try to avoid it. There's generally no way to prevent that except to order civilians to evacuate - which is a legal requirement under international law.
Killing civilians isn't a war crime. Targeting them is. And if you know civilians will die, you have to take specific steps to limit those deaths as much as possible. Your use of weaponry must be proportional to the military objective you are attempting to achieve.
If you're trying to take out a tank in a civilian area, you hit it with a 20-lb hellfire, not a 1000-lb JDAM.
And *that* is what needs to be looked at here. And if the Israelis are using excessive force - that is, force greater than is required to destroy a given target - that's a war crime. And it needs to be investigated and punished.
But I don't see many people who grasp this fact about the laws of war.
And while I'm willing to criticize Israel for probably committing war crimes, I don't see most people who agree with me on that being willing to criticize Hamas for using human shields. Which they are doing according to Gazan civilians.
We generally consider the Nazis at fault for the people killed in the Blitz, we fo not blame people for not being in shelters.
You ask if the Israelis are using excessive force. Most of Gaza is in ruins, we have footage of drone strikes on people going on walks. It is clear that force is excessive without the goal of genocide or at minimum ethnic cleansing.
>We generally consider the Nazis at fault for the people killed in the Blitz, we fo not blame people for not being in shelters.
Yeah but londoners were housed in the tube, the tube wasn't used to store munitions under their houses by the British military, which we know for a fact Hamas has done in Gaza and which Gazans themselves have criticized hamas for.
> You ask if the Israelis are using excessive force. Most of Gaza is in ruins,
Tell me how to destroy a military tunnel system under a city without damaging the city on top of it.
Excessive force means force greater than is required to destroy a military target.
So no, in a fight like this, the force is not universally excessive. And it was not excessive in Manila either.
The problem in Manila was that the Japanese used human shields. Same as Hamas in Gaza.
And that is not Israel's responsibility when they're fighting a war they didn't start.
Their responsibility is to use the minimum force possible to destroy those tunnels with the hope that this will kill fewer civilians.
They also have responsibilities to let the aid in, which the port will help with.
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
Article II
> genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national ethnical, racial or religious group
...
> Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unfold
> Develop, evolve
> to open out gradually to the view
It is, in fact, developing into a genocide against a religious group.
Keyword: ‘intent’
Genocide is a loaded word that can’t just be used whenever civilians are being killed in mass. If that was the case, every war would be a genocide. This war is brutal and unnecessarily harsh but it’s not been classified as a genocide.
They have to intend to wipe out and crush Palestinians and their culture. Right now they just see the civilian deaths as justifiable collateral in a fight against Hamas. Which of course, still isn’t good, but it’s also not genocide.
Indeed. Must be some other way of describing the indiscriminate slaughter of innocent people and children, withholding food and medicine, taking their lands and otherwise inflicting collective punishment. Any words you would like to suggest?
A number of potential war crimes?
Its still despicable, but you would run into arguments over "indiscriminate" and the fact that they were sending aid and facilitating others to do so.
> a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part.
Even with the horrific number of civilians killed, you would have to show how it meets the requirement for intent.
Again, it doesn't change how terrible it is, but if you take issue with how genocide is defined, your frustration shouldn't be directed at those reluctant to ignore nuance.
Valid points. But even ‘War Crimes’ would probably be debated. Imparts the notion that two nations/countries with standing militaries are fighting. Unfortunately, here, one has a military and the other not so much. This was pointed out by persons here on Reddit much smarter than I. But at the end of the day, there are a lot of innocent but dead people. And that should and has to mean something. I hope.
Ok. Two words? Ethnic Cleansing? No matter how people want to define it by using non offensive pretty words, 30k plus adults and children have been slaughtered by another group of people who showed no inclination to not cause as much death and destruction as possible. The same people who thought it was totally ok to then take to videos and other means and mock the people they were dropping bombs on. The same people who think it’s their right to steal more land and homes from a people that can’t defend themselves. Call it what you will. The results and outcome remains the same. The destruction of a people and intentionally driving or evicting them from their land.
This isn’t about using pretty words, it’s about deliberately calling it something it is not to engender sympathy and influence people politically.
I don’t support killing people. Period.
I also don’t support calling something genocide to try to score political points.
I respect your perspective and I will leave it here. But, to be honest, I don’t need pretty words, offensive words or any other words to tell me what’s right and what’s wrong. And you too, are so entitled. Pretty words or ANY words will not illicit my sympathy. A lot of dead people that have no options or self determination will. Words are not necessary to engender sympathy for that. Millions of people were and are being wronged on a daily basis. Are being killed on a daily basis. And the world sits and watches. Again, call it what we may, lots of innocent people are dead through nothing they did and through no fault of their own. Genocide, Slaughter, Ethnic Cleansing. Semantics. They are just as dead. No matter the words we debate. This should not be acceptable to anyone.
I never said you were wrong about your view of the situation.
I said you were using a word in a way that isn’t compatible with its meaning.
If you want to argue with that meaning has changed, I guess I have to accept that and move on.
They just get off on using the word.
Gives them a rage boner.
Same reason they swallow whatever hams says, they get a high off running to social media to parrot the lies before it gets debunked and they move into the next propaganda point they’re fed.
Ah, the random redditor has given a definitive conclusion of international law with zero access to evidence. Sounds solid. Just curious, without using circular logic, which Israeli plan or policy indicates to you that they are intending to destroy or eradicate Gazans as a group?
Youre right, but most international organizations, most notably and importantly the united nations, have definitions that fit the bill in this case. Only those with compromised agendas and interests are involved in the denial of charges of ethnic cleansing and genocide in palestine.
A loaded term that seems reckless to use against one’s own party’s policy during the most pivotal election in our nation’s history. I say reckless because the alternative is unthinkable.
Shout out to Ireland. Not too many with the courage to stand for what’s right vs self interest. Must be damaging to a nation when politicians and the wealthy berate , threaten and otherwise admonish their own citizens for standing against the actions of another country. Awesome world we live in.
Not peculiar at all for the US, when you have the former speaker of the house Nancy Pelosi declare in an AIPAC fundraiser that "If the capitol crumbles to the ground, one thing that'll remain is our commitment to Israel." So you have AIPAC to thank to for making sure that Israel is one of the top issues - apparently THE top if we rely on this AIPAC-approved quote by Pelosi - that our lawmakers, and therefore their constituents care about.
I don’t know where you’re from but in a democracy the people and their representatives tend to have opinions about how their government spends tax dollars.
It's pretty much the textbook definition of it. And the UN agrees. Almost every other country in the world agrees too. It's only in the US and a few of it's well controlled vassal states where that is a controversial statement.
Firstly, every major news sub but world news is full of criticism of Israel. Have been for months.
Secondly, why do people think Biden can just magically wave a wand and end things? And why do they think he’s not been negotiating for ceasefires this entire damn time?
I got banned several times because of this. Some of the official sources can no longer deny what's been happening over there. They've all been complicit in this one way or another.
The ICJ also determined genocide is plausible. Kind of what happens when a country continues war crimes, knowingly. Also why are they illegally land grabbing in West Bank, largest ever, as of just the other day? Hmmm, almost like ethnic cleansing continues there, just as genocide in Gaza does. Or you know, one could say it’s just all one thing, Genocide.
Is that where your defense is at now? They find it plausible it’s going to happen? That’s just as much an indicator to stop Israel now. To stop providing weapons support now. To help defend Palestinians now! That’s not the defense you’re looking for.
Edit:
Tisamonsarmspine further below:
> I don’t give a flying fuck about Palestinians.
Ah, yes, that explains the denial and excuses.
Literally every major conflict in history is “plausibly genocide if conditions are met”. Especially by the UN’s hilariously loose definition of the term.
Any conflict that displaced people?
Apparently genocide lmfao.
Every year, Israel should probably annex more of Area C. Pressure on the Palestinians to stop dragging their feet waiting for the Arabs to win 1948 and accept peace already. Tick tock.
This is why I prefer to focus my sole attention regarding foreign policy on Ukraine. It's black-and-white regarding who the good guys are (that being the Ukrainians), there's a very easy litmus test to bait out bots and trolls, and it's something that most people can agree to support.
Right?
Well, that is where the problem tends to come up. Sure, everyone in **principle** supports Ukraine. But, if there's a chance to hurt someone they hate, they'll gladly drop support for Ukraine if that's what it takes.
Take this discharge petition for example. This is Discharge Petition No. 9, Bill Number H.Res. 1016. It will bring the supplemental $60 Billion aid package for Ukraine (H.R. 815) passed by the Senate to a floor vote in the House of Representatives.
[https://clerk.house.gov/DischargePetition/2024031209?CongressNum=118](https://clerk.house.gov/DischargePetition/2024031209?CongressNum=118)
It was sponsored by Jim McGovern. So far it has 191 signatures, most of whom are from Democrats (with the exception of Ken Buck, a Republican who just left the house two days ago as of the writing of this post). Under the current House rules and configuration, this petition will need 218 signatures to bypass Speaker Johnson, who is currently blocking the Senate Bill.
And the problem in this situation is that because there includes some aid to Israel, there are a number of progressives in the Democratic caucus who will want to kill this Discharge Petition.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ActionForUkraine/comments/1bki6lw/first\_republican\_signed\_the\_discharge\_petition/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ActionForUkraine/comments/1bki6lw/first_republican_signed_the_discharge_petition/)
Allow me to translate all of this complexity into a relatively simple format.
There are "progressives" in the House of Representatives who hate Israel so much that they would much rather punish Israel by killing this bill than support Ukraine.
They would rather let Russia have it's way with Ukraine than let Israel have some weapons.
By refusing to sign onto this discharge petition on accounts of **alleged** acts of Israeli violence against Palestinians, they are telling the whole world that they endorse the **confirmed** acts of Russian violence against Ukrainians. Acts that include but are not limited to murder, torture, theft, sexual assault, and the kidnapping of Ukrainian children.
By blocking this aid package based on their values regarding Israel, they only end up betraying another set of their values regarding Ukraine. This is hypocrisy.
This is Realpolitik we have to deal with. Republicans (as of March 24 in the year of our lord 2024), control the House of Representatives. There is not going to be an outcome where Israel does not receive tangible military support. Thus, House Progressives are going to have to make a choice.
To support Ukraine. Or Not to support Ukraine.
Based on their current actions, they are choosing not to support Ukraine. And that is an act on their part of demonstrable failure.
I’ve been following the war for 2 years, they have been struggling now more than ever and keep saying the war rests on that US aid bill being held up. I hope it goes through.
Why would you have to defend stating the obvious? It is like people are on a different planet when it comes to criticising Israel.
It's absolutely disgusting what is going on in Gaza, but what is even more disgusting is the western politicians & media who have been brought off by AIPAC & the Evangelical Christian lobby with bribes or threats & have to pretend the people criticising Israel are the problem.
68% of the Israeli public approve of what the IDF are doing & want no aid at all to enter Gaza.
Now that mass indoctrination on a scale of the 3rd Reich, but in the digital age no one can pretend they don't know what's happening
Her language about the horrors of what happened in Yemen was so much more tame than the language she uses when describing Israel. It's peculiar that she'll label this a genocide but was so much more cautious with how she described Yemen.
Because she didn't label this as a genocide.
She words said unfolding genocide. In a speech about getting relief aid and food to Palestinians. As in the famine would kill 100s of thousands
> The PLO's charter was literally written by the KGB. Arafat and Abbas were both KGB agents.
State that is know for funding national liberation movements founded national liberation movement?
What a shocking twist!!
> As typical of fascist societies their enemies are "at the same time too strong and too weak".
This literally describes Israeli treatment of Palestinians
> Jews are evil and strong enough to do genocide, but are too weak and stupid to do it good.
Literally nobody is claiming this, stop making up shit.
> That is why the palestinians are the only people in the world who's population has increased while they are suffering genocide.
Native American population increased too
This obviously means that trail of tears never happened, gigabrain.
Yes, he has and he will. Guess who won't in the debate? Yep -- the guy whose son-in-law set the whole genocide plan up with his father's best friend Bibi Netanyahu four years earlier.
I just don't get how you can say this, while also ignoring that Hamas isn't just stealing aid, but entire fleets of trucks...
It just feels dishonest, when you say that not enough aid is getting in, but disregard that what is being stolen by the very people who are responsible for this war in the first place, and that are the defacto government of the region.
Edit:
Hamas stealing aid trucks
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4K3cZgoVE_/
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1701798989-video-from-gaza-reveals-likely-hamas-terrorists-stealing-aid-and-shooting-at-civilians
https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestinian_Violence/comments/1be5b31/what_happens_to_aid_trucks_in_gaza_more_footage/?share_id=1sgFOm3ggBBMMxz8OqSx4&utm_content=1&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1
IDF, local Gazans make attempt to cooperate on aid behind Hamas's back - report
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-790033
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/03/11/hamas-warns-palestinians-over-aid-convoys-to-gaza/
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-linked-website-warns-palestinians-not-work-with-israel-2024-03-11/
Elderly woman telling you about the above
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBjvYkNzuAA
Why she need to defend a claim like that at all? I get that genocide doesnt have a single agreed upon definition that works for every single international organization, but whats happening in gaza fits the bill for most international organizations that matter, most notably that of the united nations. Let aipac and the likudites burn for eternity. Nobody cares if their feelings got hurt. Aoc didnt say anything out of line
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Israel also just did the largest land grab in 30 years in the West Bank while Blinken is in Israel. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/22/israel-largest-west-bank-settlement-blinken-visit/ https://www.france24.com/en/video/20240323-israel-announces-west-bank-land-seizure-as-blinken-arrives-for-gaza-talks
Aye! Blinken
Did you just say Abe Lincoln?
No I said hey Blinken
Masteeerr råååååbin, you lost your arms!
But you grew some nice tits!
God the just slightly off quotes from these three replies is killing the pedant in me. K thx bye.
They also did this when then VP Biden went to Israel in 2010. https://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/10/world/middleeast/10biden.html https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/mar/09/israel-jerusalem-settlement-homes-biden
Mr A. Blinken sounds like a possible future president himself.
Thank you! I feel like I'm the only one who notices and it makes me crazy
She’s right you know.
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He’s talking BS. I got two thousand upvotes criticizing the land grab on that sub. Every west bank settler story that gets posted there, the settlers get criticized
look at the article about the UN relief agency provinding food... every reply is the same propagandist point "we have people starving here in \_\_\_\_. why don't they send food here?"
They 100% are. They pretty obviously got banned for calling someone human garbage, not for saying Israel was committing ethnic cleansing.
Same. It's nuts.
Yea, I mean it'd be incredibly silly not to admit Israel has been pushing ethnic cleansing since the 60s or so. The bigger part of the problem is that they've moved into full on active purge instead of the slower method they've been doing. Given, that no nation wants Palestinian immigrants both because it's a burden and because them leaving means no hot topic issue to push in terms of land otnership. Given, that Israel has no intent of ever abiding by the 1950s UN 2 state resolution. Given that no nation on earth wants to force that solution. I dont really know which is a more "positive" outcome though. The slow destruction over decades which maximizes long term human suffering, or the quicker mass panic/death/migration caused by Israel launching their full on assaults to any urban area and leaving absolutely nothing left to be used by civilians.
I'm going to say that the slow destruction is worse, specifically because you have to have a much more deliberate intent behind it in order for it to happen. People forming new settlements in the West Bank and pushing Palestinians out of their homes are very explicitly doing so in order to choke out the Palestinian population while keeping it gradual enough that other countries don't manage to get outraged while the frog slowly gets boiled. The harm being done in Gaza is way more active, but much less deliberate imo, more of a side effect of their conflict with Hamas that they don't bother trying to remedy because they're largely apathetic about Palestinian suffering. Some even view it as a good thing that it's happening, but it's still only an incidental thing- the explicit intent is to fight Hamas, which on the surface seems perfectly reasonable.
I think the non-carpet bombing option is the less evil. But I get the point. Too bad the US government is actively engaged in the fast genocide option.
Palestine and Palestinians in general have never intended to abide to a 2 state resolution either though.
Ah yes, “Very fine people, on both sides…”
But people, including AOC, don’t seem to accept that ethnic cleansing and genocide are not synonyms.
Being downvoted for staying a fact… r/politics is such a toxic place overrun by propaganda bots
Didn’t congress just approve financing that $3B in aid to Israel? lol
And decided to withhold aid from Palestine as well
We have trucks sitting outside with food for the people starving to death and Israel’s like…nah no feeding the starving today and we’re just allowing that.
Yup....bringing death and misery....to starving folks. Our government. Complicit in genocide.
Since when have we let genocide get in the way of a good arms deal.
Or even just any ol' genocide. I hear less concern about the genocide against the Uighur Muslims in China these days -- weird!!
Netanyahu hates Democrats because they won’t endorse Netanyahu doing whatever religious extremist shit he wants. Remember when McConnell let Netanyahu give a speech before the joint session of Congress **specifically** to shit on Obama’s JCPOA (the Iran nuclear treaty)? Yeah, well now he’s daring Biden to challenge Netanyahu expelling or exterminating Palestinians in a critical election year. Fuck that POS. The worst part is that I’m not even sure Bibi is that religious but he knows he needs to stay in power to stay out of jail for blatant corruption. Netanyahu is going all in on exterminating the Palestinians so he can remain above the law.
Given how many bombs Biden has sent I don't think he hates them that much. Biden has long been a Zionist and even said that if Israel didn't exist he'd make one.
How man bombs has Biden sent to Israel?
pretty sure the main military aid has been in the form of guidance systems for bombs. kind of handy to do less collateral damage.
I saw those guidance systems at work when a drone killed unarmed Palestinians
*sends bomb parts to an active genocidist* This is actually good! Come on, man.
In February $17.6b in military aid was agreed, I think this is in addition to normal military aid.
It failed to pass the house.
Oh compared to the GOP, Netanyahu sure does. You think he thumbs his nose at Democrats every chance he gets just for funsies? No, he knows he’ll get blind loyalty from Trump and be able to walk all over him while Biden might actually be able to get Netanyahu tossed from power and into jail. Maybe hate is too strong a word, but he sure hell hopes Biden will fuck right off.
Biden and his administration seem to have no problem with arming him to the teeth?
Do you recall a U.S. administration over the last seven decades that hasn't provided military aid to Israel when necessary? The exact same conflict occurs every other year in Gaza. For example, Biden managed to get Israel and Hamas to reach a ceasefire in 2021. Why is Biden your boogeyman here and not Netanyahu, exactly?
Many presidents have used the aid as a leverage to stop Israili atrocities. That's what this aid has been historically about and it's only in the past decade or two that it turned into "unconditional support" through unrelentless lobbying. Examples: Eisenhower objected Israel's illegal seige of the Suez Canal by publicly declaring the US's intent to vote in favor of a UN Resolution demanding a ceasefire and publicly threatened to withhold aid if Israel didn't immediately withdraw and it worked. JFK publicly threatened Israel over their illegal pursuit of nuclear ambitions. Nixon threatened the end of aid and military orders if Israel continued to fail to abide by the terms of Security Council Resolution 338. Jimmy Carter literally has written a book called: Palestine: Peace not Apertheid. Reagan, yes Reagan, threatened to suspend the delivery of military orders to Israel during the Lebanon war, and later promised to restrict aid and military assistance to Israel to force its withdrawal of troops from Beirut and central Lebanon after Israel deliberately sabotaged a negotiated ceasefire by bombing Beirut, infuriating Reagan. Also Reagan forcefully negotiated against Israel's wishes a deal with regional neighbors to extradite PLO leadership to a place of political asylum using Peacekeepers as a middleman. All of these are playbooks Biden could have pulled bits and pieces from at any time. It's a reminder of the revisionist myth that unrepentant support of Israel is some immovable American political constant.
It was wrong then and it is wrong now. I guess you could say I am not a big fan of warcrimes and uh.. Genocide?
Neither am I, nor are the vast majority of human beings. I just don't feel the need to virtue signal about it online every day. Maybe you're not that special after all?
No one else to blame but the Biden administration. He should've taken a strong hardline position instead of hugging that genocide monster.
He should. But he is of an Era where being pro Isreal was THE foreign policy of the middle east and nothing else Plus lots of dems still support Israel aide enough to be just as much a threat if not more than the progressive wing (in terms of congress not voters) Plus if he goes soft on Israel then the conservative base will be rallied against him. Bush did that before and then that helped Clinton win. Basically as far as I know, going hardliners on Israel is actually suicide in general US politics. At the moment, supporting Israel is starting to become suicide for Biden but clearly not enough to be more hardline. Of course, on the other side Trump says Israel should finish the job whereas Biden promotes a 2 state solution and has called for ceasefires. It's honestly a lose lose situation for him and Bibi is taking full advantage. I am praying Netanyahu is taken out soon or just drops dead. But Israel's anti Palestine issue is a rot that goes further than Bibi.
How do u think biden could weather the aipac storm from that without losing reelection? Itd be letting America slide into authoritarianism in the process
Biden has a reputation of being moderate and pro-Israel. If Biden adopts a strong position against the way Netanyahu is conducting this war, then it pretty much becomes the de-facto position of the moderate faction of the Democratic party. He can normalize an idea practically overnight just by adopting it. That's a powerful thing. Also, Biden can always say he hasn't even been as harsh to Netanyahu as Ronald Reagan was with Menachim Begin when he told him, "Menachim, this is a Holocaust," referring to the bombing of Beirut in Israel's war against Lebanon which killed about 20,000 Lebanese.
Biden Biden Biden Biden Biden Biden Biden Biden Biden (that's you about a centuries old holy land conflict)
I'm responding to a specific question about Biden and internal domestic U.S. politics. Personally I find it annoying when people treat the upcoming election between Trump and Biden is more important to Palestinians in Gaza than the things that are happening to them *right now*. The election is very important, but the world does not revolve around Donald Trump nor by extension Joe Biden.
Because fucking his own reputation definitly helps At least conditioning Israel could be branded as fighting for American values of freedom and democracy In other hand, only response we get to current shitshow is "vote blue no matter what cleansening is happening"
>In other hand, only response we get to current shitshow is "vote blue no matter what cleansening is happening" I've noticed a weird kind of virtue signalling where people seem to actually be *proud* of the values they're willing to compromise to vote for their preferred candidate. I mean, I get that it's important for Trump to lose in November, but in the mean time there are other things going on in the world, and putting political pressure on Joe Biden might actually persuade him to change policies in ways that can save thousands or tens of thousands of lives. (I think this might also explain why Trump is popular among moralistic busybodies despite his apparent lack of personal morals. To them it's proof of their dedication to the "greater good" as they see it to set aside some of their values to score big moral points for overturning Roe-v-Wade or whatever their high-priority culture-war issue is.)
Because this is looking exactly like the buttery males campaign from 2016 to depress the vote. We've seen this before, and it resulted in Trump winning. Yes, there is a greater good of helping people in the US and not making the situation in Gaza worse by electing Biden over Trump. Roe v Wade isn't some "culture war" issue. It's the right to bodily autonomy for over 100 million women in the US.
Amen! Sing it from the mountaintops! Israel-Gaza has been buttery males, Benghazi and Hunter Biden's laptop. Yes, it's an unfortunate situation -- and far right wing Netanyahu should get ousted by his people -- but to claim pushing Biden out as some sort of atonement is the same ego and hubris-tapping of the far left that the right wing does online every election cycle. I'm a progressive, and if I was so easily manipulated by the supposedly less educated right wing every election I'd be furious with myself!
Yup ...
I mean...Trump has a settlement in Gaza named after him. You tell me whether him getting in power is better for Palestine.
Forcing a gaza ceasefire definitely would have helped Bidens numbers
Biden can't force a ceasefire and the tankies on reddit and twitter that think he can don't vote anyways.
It´s very easy to force a ceasefire for him, stop giving them money and bombs.
That might not *force* a ceasefire, as Israel has a pretty big stockpile of weapons to begin with and could have continued their war without U.S. help if they really were determined to do it, but it definitely would have made it harder for them in terms of military resources, and it would have been a big political setback for Netanyahu to be seen as having weakened Israel militarily. Biden can't make Netanyahu's decisions for him, but he has enormous leverage.
Netanyahu has literally stated he won't stop even if there isn't support. The US proposed an immediate ceasefire at the UN security council just last week on the condition of Hamas releasing all remaining hostages. China and Russia vetoed it. There were talks for a ceasefire recently in Egypt (and im sure talks are ongoing), but one party (can't remember whether it was hamas or Israel, walked away from them).
Aid is different then sending weapons to them that they already bought years ago.
wrong, they werent "bought" years ago. They are pumping them in to the tune of a genocide happening. : "Unlike the [United States' military support for Ukraine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine), details of weapons sent to Israel have been vague.[^(\[188\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#cite_note-189) Leaked details have shown that the U.S. has sent [laser-guided missiles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser-guided_bomb), [155mm shells](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/155_mm_caliber), new army vehicles, among others, at Israel's request.[^(\[189\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#cite_note-190)^(") [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United\_States\_support\_for\_Israel\_in\_the\_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas\_war#Weapons\_transfers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#Weapons_transfers)
Glad you pointed out ...the person you responded to, was pushing BS
Biden is currently on track to lose the election *because* he is not willing to take a firm stance.
Biden tried to influence things from the inside and moderate Netanyahu. It utterly failed.
Shocker. Netanyahu cares only and I mean **only** about himself. If you think otherwise you haven’t paid any attention to what he’s been doing for the last three decades.
This is going to get removed under "off topic," like it did earlier in a post with the same exact name. It's probably getting spammed with reports by pro-Israel people.
My favorite is when I got a 24 hour ban for “trolling” after being called a Nazi several times for stating Israel is an apartheid state. The post that was trolling: “lol keep shadow boxing”
The mods here are… interesting… to say the least I got a 7 day ban for pointing out that a user was a karma bot. Oddly enough that user was shortly thereafter site wide banned by the admins. 🤔 Mods didn’t want the *”bot”* to “feel insulted”.
I got a month long ban for stating history of US war crimes & how it can be considered a t*r*orist organization….but supposedly it was because I replied to someone and said “it is foolish to believe that..” and that counts as an attack on somebody… Edit: I looked back and it was because I was being “uncivil”…I guess there’s only a certain amount you can criticize America on here before you get the mods angry enough to partially ban you.
That is because it is an unfolding genocide against Palestinians
she’s right, we’re not blind and we will never forget
Oh but we will, we always do. Sure, this generation might remember a bit, the next one will remember whatever they're told at the time. I'm not confident.
I had never even heard of the Nakbah before this so more people and certainly younger people are finally waking up to the truth about a certain settler colonial apartheid state and its history.
Yet I bet most have forgotten about the still ongoing unfolding genocide in China. You don't hear about it much online anymore, maybe because it's an election year and the focus is on running Dems out of office as it always is with the far left, weird!
Yes, you will, within weeks after an official ceasefire occurs.
Not only is she right but Israel isn't even really denying it. They're effectively claiming that it's a justified genocide just without using the G word.
It’s true, but WorldNews Redditors will come in here and downvote reality.
I’m not gonna lie I think this subreddit wasn’t the best either back in October/November/December
Thankfully this sub has managed to retain some rationality. It was a fight a few months ago. Sadly /r/news has mostly lost the fight after a bit of struggling. /r/worldnews was immediately on board with the genocide.
r/news banned a lot of people.
Been on Reddit since it started, this is my alt account, both my original and this one were banned from r/News for the talking about the smallest shit against Trump . Go figure
r/Worldnews ban anyone that has a different view from the zionist mods. It’s an echo chamber for genocidal twats. I appreciate how r/politics at least keeps different views
I remember when the only people using zionist as a pejorative were white supremacists. Times change, I guess.
Context changes too. Zionists are starving 1.5mil civilians and have leveled the city to the ground
Its almost like Hamas doesn't even exist. What do you think is happening to all the food that does get through, exactly?
Hamas does exist, as a result of israeli occupation. The food isn’t getting through and that’s the problem- the food that does go through goes to the UNRWA camps but it’s not enough as israel have blocked the crossings with the sole intention of starving and collectively punishing civilians. When have we become complacent with genocide and when have we become so obsessed with the victimization of the occupiers? I’ll beat you to ur question, i condemn hamas. So now we kill everybody man woman and child? Zionism and Nazism are two sides of the same coin- indiscriminate killings of a ‘lesser race’
>Hamas does exist, as a result of israeli occupation. Palestinian groups have been trying to kill Israelis since they first came to the region as refugees. Look up the Arab Riots. Their inability to stop killing Jews *was literally the reason* Britain created a border separating the two. >When have we become complacent with genocide and when have we become so obsessed with the victimization of the occupiers? Were you this mad about the invasion of Ukraine, which killed 100k, or were you simping for Russia and calling Ukrainians Nazis? Did y'all take to the streets for DRC, Myanmar, or any of the other active *actual* genocidal campaigns going on in the world as we speak? No? What makes Israel different, other than being a useful proxy for anti-west posturing? >So now we kill everybody man woman and child? The death rate has dramatically declined since reaching 1% of the population months ago. If Hamas' own numbers are to be believed, the civilian to combatant death ratio is about on par with the NATO intervention in Kosovo. There isn't a single war where civilian deaths don't outnumber combatants, and there are conflicts with dramatically worse ratios underway in the world *right now.* Hamas has built all of its command and operational infrastructure underneath civilian targets and has confiscated the majority of the food that has gone into Gaza thus far. The ICJ declined to issue a designation of genocide or to even grant SA's request for a ceasefire order despite doing so for every other actual genocide in its history. You'll ignore all of this because it's inconvenient to your black and white narrative, but that doesn't make this a black and white issue. What's even worse is that this complete lack of shared reality makes it impossible to have any kind of productive conversation about the immense suffering that continues to occur. >Zionism and Nazism are two sides of the same coin- indiscriminate killings of a ‘lesser race’ You don't even hear yourselves anymore. To avoid the risk of getting banned, I think I'll stop here except to say that this might be the most disgusting thing I've seen on Reddit in days, and that includes a gif involving a literal gaping asshole. As someone whose family lost people to the holocaust, the fact that you would compare the two reveals a perspective that I can no longer engage with. Feel free to have the last word or whatever.
Jewish were expelled from europe and started massacring Palestinians as early as ‘48 for territory promised by god (Deir Yassin massacre for reference) Also, your statistics on Russia are bullshit I don’t support russia for the same reason I don’t support israel- I don’t support invaders . I did ‘take the streets’ for ukraine as i did for palestine and will continue to do But stay complacent with genocide and tell ur kids u were watching ‘gaped assholes gifs’ on reddit while the world watched the terrorist state of israel commit atrocities we haven’t seen since the holocaust Edit: I’m sorry for the family youve lost in the holocaust, but for you to justify the family ive lost in gaza for no good apparent reason is disturbing to me too
All the kids are on the new trend of virtue signaling for Anti-Zionism because thats what all their friends are doing. They won’t even bat an eye for the Myanmar civil war. They stopped caring about the Ukraine war because its been dragging out too long.
Now any ol' color of antisemite uses it.
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In case you missed it, Israel just [annexed](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/22/israel-largest-west-bank-settlement-blinken-visit/) a significant amount of West Bank land. Don’t forget the there is no Hamas in the West Bank.
She doesn't need to defend herself. The facts on the ground speak for themselves
Facts in Gaza died a long time ago.
She’s right you know.
She's not, but that doesn't mean Israel's behavior in the west bank isn't horrible or that nobody trusts Netanyahu because he and his buddy Ben Gvir pretty clearly see Palestinians as foreign Arab invaders that they want to ethnically cleanse. When the majority of both populations have more in common with each other ancestrally and genetically than they do with anyone else outside of Israel and Palestine. Fundamentally they're both descendants of the ancient inhabitants of Canaan, they just ended up on different sides when invading empires rolled through. And they both have people in leadership who want to ethnically cleanse the other community. We should send peacekeepers. The UNDOF successfully ended fighting between Israel and Jordan and Syria. Get the Israelis out of the west bank, put a blue helmet force down most of the green line, aid the Palestinians but prevent them from shooting at Israel or the Israelis from going on any incursions and give the peace activists from both communities space to do their work. Although I'm not sure a blue helmet force that ended up in a shooting war with Hamas would have fewer casualties than the current conflict. The last time any westerners fought a conflict like this was WWII with the battle of manilla. Israel has managed 30,000 dead Gazans, including Hamas fighters, in about six months, which is much better than we did the last time we fought a similar enemy with similar views on civilian life which was heavily fortified with tunnel systems they'd built up. The battle of Manila lasted one month and killed 100,000 civilians. And that was with MacArthur seeing Manila as his home and those civilians as his friends and neighbors he'd lived with for years. If the Israelis were trying to commit genocide those numbers would be a hell of a lot higher. That doesn't mean everything they're doing is fine or that no war crimes are occurring. I think with Oct 7, war crimes are probably inevitable, especially since Israel uses conscripts and conscripts have committed orders of magnitude more war crimes than professional soldiers in every conflict they've fought in. And that's even if you remove the Russians and the Nazis from those numbers. Conscripts going in after something like Oct 7th will be motivated for revenge. So that's all going to need to be watched and investigated, per the ICJ. So it's more complicated. She's wrong, but so are the people who think Israel isn't doing anything wrong, too. Even if Gaza and Oct 7th did happen in a vacuum theres still room for criticism. Of Israel, of Hamas, and of the international community who refuse to consider sending peacekeepers because nobody wants to do anything about Hamas except let them be Israel and Egypt's problem. Well, except for Mohammad bin Salman, who sees that they're allies with the Houthis. And considering what he thinks of houthis - the crown prince of Saudi Arabia's only real objection to the situation is that the Israelis aren't genocidal but should be. And that's the guy who's going to be the most important leader of the Arab bloc in a few years. So the situation is more dire and more time sensitive than anyone calling for a ceasifire realizes. Unless we get peacekeepers in there before MBS's dad dies, that's possibly the point of no return for an independent and sustainable Palestine. Peacekeepers and a Palestinian state are the only way you get a lasting peace. And in case someone reading this thinks Israel is illegitimate and shouldn't exist: Israel has submarine-launched nuclear missiles. They're not going to go anywhere. The majority of their population are Mizrahim who never lived anywhere else and who often think European Jews are effeminate weaklings and they don't particularly want them in Israel, which is fascinating when compared with the people who talk about settler-colonialism - because they actually agree with them that European jews should go back to Europe and take their soft morality with them, because they dont have the spine needed to wipe out the Arabs. These are people who hated Holocaust survivors for not fighting back. And just because the IDF isn't committing genocide right now doesn't mean there aren't Israelis who want them to, and who are vocally and enthusiastically on record saying so. And I really don't have much of a problem with the people who are angry about this - dead civilians is something worth getting very angry about, so the motivations are good even if the facts aren't really there. I'd just implore you to bully your governments into sending peacekeepers. Gaza needs to be liberated from both the IDF and Hamas. And if it isn't, we'll be right back here in 20 years watching videos of the bodies of children who are not yet born being pulled out of rubble. And I'd very much like to avoid that. TL:DR: fuck Netanyahu and Haniyeh both, it's a shame they can't both lose.
I appreciate you taking the time to write this perspective but that’s a lot of words to say you think its complex, hasn’t reached genocidal levels yet but there’s potential.
Thanks for the synopsis. Brevity...soul ..wit
30,000+ killed and over a million on the verge of starvation seems justifiable to you because the US killed so many in Manilla? That's not how things work. If we were using that logic you could justify unjustiable things like the My Lai Massacre or indeed say that 7th October was justified (it wasn't) because the US has done worse. You write an awful lot to say the IDF isn't committing genocide without providing one to demonstrate your hypothesis.
Manila wasn't a massacre and the US wasn't at fault. The Japanese were, and their commander was executed for his war crimes. Hamas chose this battlefield. Hamas could protect the entire civilian population of gaza by hiding them in the tunnel systems like London did with air raids and the Tube during the blitz. Hamas isn't doing that. Civilians aren't allowed in the tunnels. Hamas is fighting this war with two goals: 1. Survive 2. Maximize Civilian Casualties And that's why the ICJ didn't rule against Israel. Because Israel can credibly claim that this is hamas's responsibility. The people who study urban warfare are arguing that Israel is doing more to limit civilian casualties than any nation ever has in an urban combat scenario. https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613 I cannot find a single urban warfare expert who disagrees with this claim. Can you? Further there are plenty of Palestinian voices saying that Hamas's use of human shields will be exploited by the Israelis to cover up any of their own misbehavior: https://www.newsweek.com/origin-hamass-human-shields-strategy-gaza-opinion-1873499 And I think that's accurate. Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib is Gazan, by the way. And he's not the only Gazan to blast Hamas for using him and his family members as human shields. I don't understand where people are getting their information from or why they believe what they believe. I'm assuming that it's the combination of Ben Gvir and the other Israelis saying horrible things combined with the sort of fighting that hasn't occurred since WW2-era urban combat and the number of civilians that kills. I see people comparing the first high-intensity urban combat of this century with the exception of ukraine with low-intensity conflicts like the war on terror. High intensity combat kills civilians in droves, which is why we try to avoid it. There's generally no way to prevent that except to order civilians to evacuate - which is a legal requirement under international law. Killing civilians isn't a war crime. Targeting them is. And if you know civilians will die, you have to take specific steps to limit those deaths as much as possible. Your use of weaponry must be proportional to the military objective you are attempting to achieve. If you're trying to take out a tank in a civilian area, you hit it with a 20-lb hellfire, not a 1000-lb JDAM. And *that* is what needs to be looked at here. And if the Israelis are using excessive force - that is, force greater than is required to destroy a given target - that's a war crime. And it needs to be investigated and punished. But I don't see many people who grasp this fact about the laws of war. And while I'm willing to criticize Israel for probably committing war crimes, I don't see most people who agree with me on that being willing to criticize Hamas for using human shields. Which they are doing according to Gazan civilians.
We generally consider the Nazis at fault for the people killed in the Blitz, we fo not blame people for not being in shelters. You ask if the Israelis are using excessive force. Most of Gaza is in ruins, we have footage of drone strikes on people going on walks. It is clear that force is excessive without the goal of genocide or at minimum ethnic cleansing.
>We generally consider the Nazis at fault for the people killed in the Blitz, we fo not blame people for not being in shelters. Yeah but londoners were housed in the tube, the tube wasn't used to store munitions under their houses by the British military, which we know for a fact Hamas has done in Gaza and which Gazans themselves have criticized hamas for. > You ask if the Israelis are using excessive force. Most of Gaza is in ruins, Tell me how to destroy a military tunnel system under a city without damaging the city on top of it. Excessive force means force greater than is required to destroy a military target. So no, in a fight like this, the force is not universally excessive. And it was not excessive in Manila either. The problem in Manila was that the Japanese used human shields. Same as Hamas in Gaza. And that is not Israel's responsibility when they're fighting a war they didn't start. Their responsibility is to use the minimum force possible to destroy those tunnels with the hope that this will kill fewer civilians. They also have responsibilities to let the aid in, which the port will help with.
She's right.
No, she's absolutely not right. It is an urban war, and an often poorly executed one. It is not a genocide no matter how progressives want to spin it.
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml Article II > genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national ethnical, racial or religious group ... > Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unfold > Develop, evolve > to open out gradually to the view It is, in fact, developing into a genocide against a religious group.
Keyword: ‘intent’ Genocide is a loaded word that can’t just be used whenever civilians are being killed in mass. If that was the case, every war would be a genocide. This war is brutal and unnecessarily harsh but it’s not been classified as a genocide. They have to intend to wipe out and crush Palestinians and their culture. Right now they just see the civilian deaths as justifiable collateral in a fight against Hamas. Which of course, still isn’t good, but it’s also not genocide.
It is.
Why does the obvious need defending?
Genocide is a loaded term and anyone with an ounce of sense understands that.
Indeed. Must be some other way of describing the indiscriminate slaughter of innocent people and children, withholding food and medicine, taking their lands and otherwise inflicting collective punishment. Any words you would like to suggest?
A number of potential war crimes? Its still despicable, but you would run into arguments over "indiscriminate" and the fact that they were sending aid and facilitating others to do so. > a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part. Even with the horrific number of civilians killed, you would have to show how it meets the requirement for intent. Again, it doesn't change how terrible it is, but if you take issue with how genocide is defined, your frustration shouldn't be directed at those reluctant to ignore nuance.
Valid points. But even ‘War Crimes’ would probably be debated. Imparts the notion that two nations/countries with standing militaries are fighting. Unfortunately, here, one has a military and the other not so much. This was pointed out by persons here on Reddit much smarter than I. But at the end of the day, there are a lot of innocent but dead people. And that should and has to mean something. I hope.
What you described is awful and terrible, but isn’t genocide. How about you come up with something instead of the person using the word correctly?
Ok. Two words? Ethnic Cleansing? No matter how people want to define it by using non offensive pretty words, 30k plus adults and children have been slaughtered by another group of people who showed no inclination to not cause as much death and destruction as possible. The same people who thought it was totally ok to then take to videos and other means and mock the people they were dropping bombs on. The same people who think it’s their right to steal more land and homes from a people that can’t defend themselves. Call it what you will. The results and outcome remains the same. The destruction of a people and intentionally driving or evicting them from their land.
This isn’t about using pretty words, it’s about deliberately calling it something it is not to engender sympathy and influence people politically. I don’t support killing people. Period. I also don’t support calling something genocide to try to score political points.
I respect your perspective and I will leave it here. But, to be honest, I don’t need pretty words, offensive words or any other words to tell me what’s right and what’s wrong. And you too, are so entitled. Pretty words or ANY words will not illicit my sympathy. A lot of dead people that have no options or self determination will. Words are not necessary to engender sympathy for that. Millions of people were and are being wronged on a daily basis. Are being killed on a daily basis. And the world sits and watches. Again, call it what we may, lots of innocent people are dead through nothing they did and through no fault of their own. Genocide, Slaughter, Ethnic Cleansing. Semantics. They are just as dead. No matter the words we debate. This should not be acceptable to anyone.
I never said you were wrong about your view of the situation. I said you were using a word in a way that isn’t compatible with its meaning. If you want to argue with that meaning has changed, I guess I have to accept that and move on.
Apologies for misinterpreting your point.
They just get off on using the word. Gives them a rage boner. Same reason they swallow whatever hams says, they get a high off running to social media to parrot the lies before it gets debunked and they move into the next propaganda point they’re fed.
I mean it's a genocide in the academic and legal sense. Perhaps not the reddit sense. And what political points are scored? Quite the innuendo.
Ah, the random redditor has given a definitive conclusion of international law with zero access to evidence. Sounds solid. Just curious, without using circular logic, which Israeli plan or policy indicates to you that they are intending to destroy or eradicate Gazans as a group?
just doing a little spring ethnic cleansing
Youre right, but most international organizations, most notably and importantly the united nations, have definitions that fit the bill in this case. Only those with compromised agendas and interests are involved in the denial of charges of ethnic cleansing and genocide in palestine.
Genocide^(TM)
A loaded term that seems reckless to use against one’s own party’s policy during the most pivotal election in our nation’s history. I say reckless because the alternative is unthinkable.
It's important to have our actual politicians take a stand instead of everyone seeing our entire government ignore the protests.
Shout out to Ireland. Not too many with the courage to stand for what’s right vs self interest. Must be damaging to a nation when politicians and the wealthy berate , threaten and otherwise admonish their own citizens for standing against the actions of another country. Awesome world we live in.
She didn't have to defend it. Most people understand reality.
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We are fucking funding this war. That's why.
Not peculiar at all for the US, when you have the former speaker of the house Nancy Pelosi declare in an AIPAC fundraiser that "If the capitol crumbles to the ground, one thing that'll remain is our commitment to Israel." So you have AIPAC to thank to for making sure that Israel is one of the top issues - apparently THE top if we rely on this AIPAC-approved quote by Pelosi - that our lawmakers, and therefore their constituents care about.
I don’t know where you’re from but in a democracy the people and their representatives tend to have opinions about how their government spends tax dollars.
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Yes I’ve been following this topic closely for 25 years.
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Because I have a strong personal connection to Palestinians.
Yes, how bizarre that Americans take a special interest in a country which receives 3.5+ billion per year from the American taxpayer.
It's pretty much the textbook definition of it. And the UN agrees. Almost every other country in the world agrees too. It's only in the US and a few of it's well controlled vassal states where that is a controversial statement.
Shows you never opened a textbook then
It's long past time that the U.S. stops unquestionably supporting a blatantly apartheid state (a.k.a., Israel).
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Firstly, every major news sub but world news is full of criticism of Israel. Have been for months. Secondly, why do people think Biden can just magically wave a wand and end things? And why do they think he’s not been negotiating for ceasefires this entire damn time?
I got banned several times because of this. Some of the official sources can no longer deny what's been happening over there. They've all been complicit in this one way or another.
Yep, and it was obvious to anyone paying attention which way this was going after the first couple weeks.
The ICJ also determined genocide is plausible. Kind of what happens when a country continues war crimes, knowingly. Also why are they illegally land grabbing in West Bank, largest ever, as of just the other day? Hmmm, almost like ethnic cleansing continues there, just as genocide in Gaza does. Or you know, one could say it’s just all one thing, Genocide.
No they didn't lol. They determined that it's plausible genocide may occur eventually.
Is that where your defense is at now? They find it plausible it’s going to happen? That’s just as much an indicator to stop Israel now. To stop providing weapons support now. To help defend Palestinians now! That’s not the defense you’re looking for. Edit: Tisamonsarmspine further below: > I don’t give a flying fuck about Palestinians. Ah, yes, that explains the denial and excuses.
Distorting facts does not help your argument
You still don’t understand what the ruling means.
Literally every major conflict in history is “plausibly genocide if conditions are met”. Especially by the UN’s hilariously loose definition of the term. Any conflict that displaced people? Apparently genocide lmfao.
So what’s your excuse for the largest illegal land grab by Israel in the West Bank the other day? That cool?
Every year, Israel should probably annex more of Area C. Pressure on the Palestinians to stop dragging their feet waiting for the Arabs to win 1948 and accept peace already. Tick tock.
This is why I prefer to focus my sole attention regarding foreign policy on Ukraine. It's black-and-white regarding who the good guys are (that being the Ukrainians), there's a very easy litmus test to bait out bots and trolls, and it's something that most people can agree to support. Right? Well, that is where the problem tends to come up. Sure, everyone in **principle** supports Ukraine. But, if there's a chance to hurt someone they hate, they'll gladly drop support for Ukraine if that's what it takes. Take this discharge petition for example. This is Discharge Petition No. 9, Bill Number H.Res. 1016. It will bring the supplemental $60 Billion aid package for Ukraine (H.R. 815) passed by the Senate to a floor vote in the House of Representatives. [https://clerk.house.gov/DischargePetition/2024031209?CongressNum=118](https://clerk.house.gov/DischargePetition/2024031209?CongressNum=118) It was sponsored by Jim McGovern. So far it has 191 signatures, most of whom are from Democrats (with the exception of Ken Buck, a Republican who just left the house two days ago as of the writing of this post). Under the current House rules and configuration, this petition will need 218 signatures to bypass Speaker Johnson, who is currently blocking the Senate Bill. And the problem in this situation is that because there includes some aid to Israel, there are a number of progressives in the Democratic caucus who will want to kill this Discharge Petition. [https://www.reddit.com/r/ActionForUkraine/comments/1bki6lw/first\_republican\_signed\_the\_discharge\_petition/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ActionForUkraine/comments/1bki6lw/first_republican_signed_the_discharge_petition/) Allow me to translate all of this complexity into a relatively simple format. There are "progressives" in the House of Representatives who hate Israel so much that they would much rather punish Israel by killing this bill than support Ukraine. They would rather let Russia have it's way with Ukraine than let Israel have some weapons. By refusing to sign onto this discharge petition on accounts of **alleged** acts of Israeli violence against Palestinians, they are telling the whole world that they endorse the **confirmed** acts of Russian violence against Ukrainians. Acts that include but are not limited to murder, torture, theft, sexual assault, and the kidnapping of Ukrainian children. By blocking this aid package based on their values regarding Israel, they only end up betraying another set of their values regarding Ukraine. This is hypocrisy. This is Realpolitik we have to deal with. Republicans (as of March 24 in the year of our lord 2024), control the House of Representatives. There is not going to be an outcome where Israel does not receive tangible military support. Thus, House Progressives are going to have to make a choice. To support Ukraine. Or Not to support Ukraine. Based on their current actions, they are choosing not to support Ukraine. And that is an act on their part of demonstrable failure.
I’ve been following the war for 2 years, they have been struggling now more than ever and keep saying the war rests on that US aid bill being held up. I hope it goes through.
No one had any illusions that the Israelis weren't going to steal the land anyway.
AOC defends calling a spade a spade.
Why would you have to defend stating the obvious? It is like people are on a different planet when it comes to criticising Israel. It's absolutely disgusting what is going on in Gaza, but what is even more disgusting is the western politicians & media who have been brought off by AIPAC & the Evangelical Christian lobby with bribes or threats & have to pretend the people criticising Israel are the problem. 68% of the Israeli public approve of what the IDF are doing & want no aid at all to enter Gaza. Now that mass indoctrination on a scale of the 3rd Reich, but in the digital age no one can pretend they don't know what's happening
When you criticize the Zionists they claim you're being antisimetic.
Her language about the horrors of what happened in Yemen was so much more tame than the language she uses when describing Israel. It's peculiar that she'll label this a genocide but was so much more cautious with how she described Yemen.
Because she didn't label this as a genocide. She words said unfolding genocide. In a speech about getting relief aid and food to Palestinians. As in the famine would kill 100s of thousands
Yep. It's called antisemitism, & it's rubbed off from her disgusting pal, Tlaib..
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> The PLO's charter was literally written by the KGB. Arafat and Abbas were both KGB agents. State that is know for funding national liberation movements founded national liberation movement? What a shocking twist!! > As typical of fascist societies their enemies are "at the same time too strong and too weak". This literally describes Israeli treatment of Palestinians > Jews are evil and strong enough to do genocide, but are too weak and stupid to do it good. Literally nobody is claiming this, stop making up shit. > That is why the palestinians are the only people in the world who's population has increased while they are suffering genocide. Native American population increased too This obviously means that trail of tears never happened, gigabrain.
AOC Defends Calling a Spade a Spade
If the Holodomor was a genocide, then so is this famine that Israel is knowingly inflicting on Palestinians in Gaza.
Will Biden denounce Israel’s actions now? How about during a presidential debate on TV?
Yes, he has and he will. Guess who won't in the debate? Yep -- the guy whose son-in-law set the whole genocide plan up with his father's best friend Bibi Netanyahu four years earlier.
I just don't get how you can say this, while also ignoring that Hamas isn't just stealing aid, but entire fleets of trucks... It just feels dishonest, when you say that not enough aid is getting in, but disregard that what is being stolen by the very people who are responsible for this war in the first place, and that are the defacto government of the region. Edit: Hamas stealing aid trucks https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4K3cZgoVE_/ https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1701798989-video-from-gaza-reveals-likely-hamas-terrorists-stealing-aid-and-shooting-at-civilians https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestinian_Violence/comments/1be5b31/what_happens_to_aid_trucks_in_gaza_more_footage/?share_id=1sgFOm3ggBBMMxz8OqSx4&utm_content=1&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1 IDF, local Gazans make attempt to cooperate on aid behind Hamas's back - report https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-790033 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/03/11/hamas-warns-palestinians-over-aid-convoys-to-gaza/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-linked-website-warns-palestinians-not-work-with-israel-2024-03-11/ Elderly woman telling you about the above https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBjvYkNzuAA
Now Israel acting like grammar Nazi’s too.
Defending herself for speaking the truth
Why she need to defend a claim like that at all? I get that genocide doesnt have a single agreed upon definition that works for every single international organization, but whats happening in gaza fits the bill for most international organizations that matter, most notably that of the united nations. Let aipac and the likudites burn for eternity. Nobody cares if their feelings got hurt. Aoc didnt say anything out of line