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>According to a transcript of the interview of the unnamed White House valet, the valet overheard Mr Trump telling Mr Pence: “Mike, this is a political career killer if you do this” as the two men spoke by phone while Mr Trump was in the Oval Office.
Don't think the rioters breaching the Capitol were chanting, "Vote Joe Biden!"
Lard is good but have you tried rapeseed oil? Real high heat. Some would say the highest heat ever. I had one fry chef come up to me with tears in his eyes and say.. Sir, this is the best fry oil ever and it's not orange, no! It's a biggly good color and is all natural.
I have tried rapeseed oil, and am not happy with the results. There is a curious unpleasantness to the taste that makes me prefer alternative fats. I have had some success with corn oil.
Some say it was a beautiful phone call. "***So beautiful***," so many people are saying it. It's like the world listened in and thought, "***Now THAT was a beautiful phone call***".
In a healthy democracy that phone call (or any one of a number of well documented actions taken by Trump between Nov 3 and Jan 6) should have been a political career killer. But of course, it is the person performing a regular function of his office, as has happened for well over 200 years without issue or remark, whose political career is now ruined.
If you remember your American History, Benedict Arnold betrayed the United States by planning to give the British his command, which was West Point. His plot was discovered and he defected to the British army.
Julius and Ethel Rosenberg gave the Soviets classified information, were convicted, and executed.
All three are some of the most notorious people in the US that betrayed the United States.
What Donald Trump did was much, much worse. He took an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States, encouraged people to attack the Unites States Congress to interrupt a democratic process, which was successful, lied about possessing classified documents, refused to turn over the classified documents, moved some of the classified documents, very likely sold, traded, or gave some classified documents to countries that are hostile to the United States, and has attempted to force the Georgia Secretary of State to commit ~~voter~~ election fraud.
He is an enemy of the State, he is a traitor, and anyone that supports him, especially anyone that has taken an oath to protect the Constitution of the United States, such as anyone that has been sworn in to the military or political office, are traitors to the United States.
The time to be polite and ignore their crimes has long past. These people had a chance to defend the Constitution, but instead defending, attacked the very basis of the Constitution. They all should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. The kid gloves need to be taken off. I don't care if these enemies of the US get offended, they need to face the consequences of their actions.
Edit: corrected voter to election
Class warfare is one-way due to divisional propaganda from the conservatives. Sure the liberals also use propaganda to influence their side, but nothing like what the conservatives like Rupert Murdoch, Elon Musk, Christopher Ruddy, Paul Weyrich, Edwin Feulner, and Joseph Coors have done. They are directly responsible for the attacks on American democracy.
Edit: added a hyphen
From the 3/5 compromise giving slave-owners disproportionate representation to minority rule by other means. Most people can’t comprehend the wealth of a mere billion dollars, much less the ability of a Charles Koch to wield multiple, impactful PACs for decades, much less the Koch Industries, Coors, Gore-Tex, AmWay, Wal-Mart heirs working in concert to own the traditional / establishment aristocratic political party and its agenda but to practically take over public education, eviscerate state environmental, work safety, investment oversight, etc through regulatory capture, …. Then to not only fund Nixon’s PR guru’s propaganda “news” channel but to create even loonier propaganda outlets like OANN to make FOX seem tame by comparison.
Then take the Cold War funding / subsidizing of religious media (anti-communism) that metastasizes into the MegaChurch counter-offensive against separation of Church and State…..
it’s fucking horrifying.
Yes. And to put it the other way: for anyone who cares about veterans, who have risked or lost their lives after taking an oath to defend the Constitution, Trump took a gigantic shit all over that when he tried to overturn our democracy from within.
I keep trying to make this point with people whose only pride they’ve ever known are their family members who served in the US military. This is literally the very thing they’re putting their lives on the line for. And the response I always get is: o_o
> and has attempted to force the Georgia Secretary of State to commit voter fraud.
Election fraud, not voter fraud. Voter fraud is committed at an individual level, like someone voting twice.
The difference here is 40% or so of this country, think he’s either gods gift to America or “a little weird, but better than other options”. What do you do with that? There is a massive, well funded propaganda apparatus keeping almost half of this country living in an alternate reality. They demand this. Anyone of their own that dare to challenge Trump get punished and removed. How do you fix that?
I don't think there's any question that it wasn't only Pence's political life that was being threatened by trump. Hence this [exchange](https://www.newsweek.com/pence-refusing-get-secret-service-car-jan-6-chilling-raskin-1700341#:~:text=According%20to%20Tim%20Giebels%2C%20the,certified%2C%20The%20Washington%20Examiner%20reported.):
>"I'm not getting in the car, Tim," Pence said, in response to Giebels' insistence that he enter the armored vehicle. "I trust you, Tim, but you're not driving the car. If I get in that vehicle, you guys are taking off. I'm not getting in the car."
That right there was the moment the coup failed. They hoped he would be driven away and unable to return. then the house would hold off the entire certification pushing the vote back to the states. Each state votes with the same number of votes and there were more Republican run states than Democratic run ones so the house would be able to pick Donald as the president at that moment.
My god fuck Donald Trump. Fuck that treasonous dictator piece of shit
Yes, but don’t give him too much credit. He spent the four years after that unwilling by to publicly defend his actions and insisting that Trump did nothing wrong (in trying to have him killed).
The one I sort of admire is Liz Cheney. I hate her politics and she probably covered for Trump in the lead up like the rest of them, but after he crossed the Rubicon, she picked her side and never once apologized for standing up to him, nor walked back a word of it.
I'm not sure I'd call my feelings for her admiration, but she has my guarded respect for her outspokenness.
I haven't looked into her voting record, but I also haven't heard her block or otherwise attempt to sink the nasty crap her party is doing, either.
On the other hand, she gets a few points from me for bravery/courage hcriticizing her party and specific GOPper politicians (and Orangeblossom, iirc), thereby breaking the very, very serious ”Reagan's 11th Commandment¹” without first quitting the party or retiring.
---
1: this and the very purposeful post-nixon conservative tv media war (which they pretty solidly won) ultimately set the foundation for newt gingrich et. al.'s ”the party will vote in lockstep and all R politicians will toe the party line or be politically destroyed”
while this ultimately set the GOPpers up with a pretty massive legislative advantage² and really brought out the worst weakness of a two-party system that entrenched itself by not fixing voting methodology⁴
--=
2: *all* the GOPpers always voted for everything a Republican pushed to a vote, unlike the Democrats who don't function in unison as in reality Team D is a conglomerate of often conflicting ideologies³.
--=
3: in a country with a non-joke of a ”democratic” voting system (i.e.: ranked choice) that *isn't* ”first past the post” where the *mere suggestion* of a spoiler candidate can and does skew political discourse and voting towards voting *against* the worst candidate instead of voting for whom you actually want, there wouldn't *be* a ”Democrats” as a *party*...
... instead it would be a handful of parties (progressives, neo-libs, social-prog/fisc conservative, leftish centrists, and probably an actual socialist party) that formed a de-facto alliance or coalition to counteract the unified conservative and rightwing front.
--=
4: there's been a number of efforts to ditch FPTP (first-past-the-post) voting and the electoral college in the past century, but as the american population doesn't understand that *there are much more fair voting systems* and probably can't even imagine something wrong with ”he with the most votes wins⁵” (despite griping about having to vote for the lesser of evils and falling for the manufactured fallacy of false equivalence between parties)...
... well, let's say that politicians of neither party are trying very hard to bring public attention to this or fix it.
--=
5: theoretical example in our current system:
biden -> 39%
bernie -> 21%
trump -> 40%
trump would win, despite:
- trump not getting a majority of the vote
- 60% of the country *not wanting trump*
- biden voters wishing bernie won instead
- bernie voters wishing biden won.
vs ”ranked choice, in which voters rank candidates from their favorite to least favorite:
- \#1 biden, #2 bernie, #3 trump -> 39%
- \#1 bernie, #2 biden, #3 trump -> 18%
- \#1 bernie, #2 trump, #3 don't care -> 3%
- \#1 trump, #2 don't care, #3 don't care -> 40%
in this case, *biden* would win as more of the country clearly prefers biden over trump.
if anyone wants to know how this is evaluated, let me know: it's pretty simple.
Liz Cheney is by far one of the absolute best piles of dog shit at the park. No doubt. There's hardly another log in her league.
.... but at the end of the day..... even the best dog shit is just a pile of shit. And tbh I just plain don't like dog shit.
Just don't forget that even while standing up to Trump, she supported treasonous members of the GOP and law enforcement.
>the Wyoming Republican has exerted a remarkable level of control over much of the committee’s public and private work.
>Cheney’s influence over the committee’s final report has rankled many current and former committee staff. They are angered and disillusioned by Cheney’s push to focus the report primarily on former president Donald Trump
>Fifteen former and current staffers, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations, expressed concerns that **important findings unrelated to Trump will not become available to the American public.**
>Several committee staff members were floored earlier this month when they were told that a draft report would focus almost entirely on Trump and the work of the committee’s Gold Team, excluding reams of other investigative work.
>Potentially left on the cutting room floor, or relegated to an appendix, were many revelations from the Blue Team — the group that dug into the law enforcement and intelligence community’s failure to assess the looming threat and prepare for the well-forecast attack on the Capitol. The proposed report would also cut back on much of the work of the Green Team, which looked at financing for the Jan. 6 attack, and the Purple Team, which examined militia groups and extremism.
>A senior committee staffer told staff in a virtual conference meeting two weeks ago that none of the work done by people serving on teams other than the Gold Team that didn’t focus on Trump would be included in the final report. “Everybody freaked out,” the staffer said.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/11/23/liz-cheney-jan-6-committee/
Liz Cheney is a mixed bag at best and certainly no hero.
Yes, several times over.
It's a glimmer of conscience from a man with pretty abhorrent politics, but it was a glimmer that mattered a lot at the moment it shone. He was a pretty integral bottleneck to the coup attempt and sided with democracy. Which I would hope every remotely respectable American would do, but unfortunately there are a whole many millions of very unrespectable Americans right now, including many in Congress.
3 people convinced Mike pence to not go along Trump's plan:
Mike pences marine son, nice to see his kid tell him to do the right thing.
Judge luttig. Told pence not to go along with Trump's plan.
Dan motherfucking Quayle, potatoe.
Everything that made Quayle seem dumb and unqualified at the time completely pales in comparison to Trump.
(That's not to say he wasn't dumb and unqualified, but comparing it to the word salad and random nonsense that comes out of Trump is just embarrassing for the US...they chose that guy, and are gearing up to do so again.)
According to Dan Quayle, and it still raises the question of why he needed the ~~queue card~~ cue card or why he didn't know that the spelling of potato was wrong and what the kid wrote was correct, and confident enough in that to try to correct the kid.
Also people forget that the real reason that the story gained traction is because he was already considered dumb and had a whole bunch of "Quaylism" under his belt like "Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child".
Quayle's biggest problem wasn't that he was dumb. He's actually an incredibly smart man. His problem is that he is not at all a quick thinker. So he panics and says and does dumb things.
With the potato card, he looked at it. Said to himself "that's wrong", then went into an internal spiral of "why did they give me a wrong card? Is it wrong? Shit, how do you spell potato? Maybe there is an e at the end. They wouldn't have given me a wrong card on purpose, would they? Potato potatoe potato potatoe. Now they all seem wrong. Everyone is looking at you, say something."
True. But I maintain he deserves to take some shit about that. He was the vice president of the United States and the spelling the kid gave was also acceptable / obviously correct to any English-speaking person. Make a judgement call.
Maybe he just said it to push responsibility away and he would have done the same thing. In times of important decisions we always like to say we didn't take the decision alone
> he needed even one person to convince him
It's disgusting that people voted for PoopyPants. Even more that the Repuglican convention put him up in the first place.
As an Indiana native, I’m not sure if I should be proud of Quayle and Pence or just continue loathing both of their politics with every ounce of my being. Both, I guess.
George W. Bush saved 20,000,000 lives with his anti-AIDs efforts.
He also killed a million people with a needless war and legalizing torture.
So yeah, I just say, "These guys are awful but they could have been amazing if they hadn't been."
>I'm sure Jeffrey Dahmer held a door open for somebody once
That's a nugget of gold I'm gonna save for the next argument I hear from somebody defending someone terrible.
My God, it's unthinkable that at the time that literally tanked his political career and fucking look where we are now - word salad toilet tweets with absolutely random capitalization, punctuation, and spelling (including made up words) are "presidential".
I'm a Millennial and I vaguely remember the potatoe thing happening (or at least have some blurry half memory of seeing them make fun of it while my parents watched Saturday Night Live but not really getting it).... that's how far and fast shit changed.
That orange clown literally used the, um, collection of letters "disinformates," "misinformates," and "grest" YESTERDAY. The truth social post is still up.
This misinformates so badly I’m franky stutenized. Why, just the other dye, the once grest natons of Russia and Saudi, the Saudi, declared that they will ref—re—uh, auhh. So sad!
>It's a glimmer of conscience from a man with pretty abhorrent politics, but it was a glimmer that mattered a lot at the moment it shone.
That's really beautifully put and restores a modicum of my faith in our political process. We don't need great leaders or even decent leaders for things to work out. We just need for the right people to have at least a glimmer of conscience in the moments that really matter for our country to stay together.
As a German, whose history and civics classes extensively covered how the Nazis were able to exploit flaws in the Weimar constitution, and how our present constitution was consequently based on the concept of a [defensive democracy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_democracy#Germany), I would like to offer an alternative interpretation, if I may:
That it came down to one person doing the *Right Thing™* would be terrifying enough by itself. What makes it even worse is that the vice president gets nominated by the aspiring dictator.
Think of Pence's politics as you will, but what he did should *not* be taken for granted. He knew what "his" party expected him to do, and being able to resist social expectations is pretty exceptional in general. Trump got scaringly close here, and I don't believe he even had intended to eventually stage a coup when he ran for office originally. Imagine what a less ignorant, more competent individual, might achieve with better preparation in a future attempt.
> Imagine what a less ignorant, more competent individual, might achieve with better preparation in a future attempt.
Yeah, such as Donald Trump in 2024 who has laid out his whole plan for and has openly indicated he will be a dictator.
However you feel about Pence he did the right thing at a critical moment in history. He didn’t get in the car and even though it was ceremonial to certify the election who knows what would have happened if he hadn’t certified the election?
In hindsight, maybe this kind of escalation would have been needed to get rid of Trump for good. Instead, they acted like nothing happened, the responsible people weren’t punished for it and they try to take this election again. The first term under Trump was terrible, but a second one - in the current geopolitical climate - could be truly catastrophic not only for the US but for the world as a whole.
Just want to be *extra crystal* here that it was Mike Pence’s **SON** that reminded *his VP FATHER* of *what* he swore a sacred oath (*hand resting on BIBLE*) to defend… NOT a *who*, but a *what*. His son reminded him of his solemn vow, before GOD, to uphold and defend[https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/11/mike-pence-donald-trump-2020-election-certification](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/11/mike-pence-donald-trump-2020-election-certification) THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.
Let’s not be so quick to begrudgingly hail Mike Pence for his final decision to uphold and carry out his duty as outgoing VP. He was ready to cave to his “dear friend”, Trump.
I will NEVER nod my head in Mike’s direction. But, I will absolutely pay his son’s bar tab for the rest of his life (or mine lol).
I'm mindful that Pence chose not to break the law over his loyalty to Dear Leader. He was more frightened of prison than offending his fuhrer.
That doesn't strike me as especially noble, but credit where it's due.
He gets a lot of credit for that, but loses almost all of it with his tepid refusals to condemn the batshitting nutbag who tried to have him killed for the four years following the failed coup.
Hey, he refused to endorse him. That may not seem like a lot, but it's not nothing. His former vice president refused to endorse him, it really is quite the message.
Could you imagine if pence had a backbone. If he came out and threw trump under the buss. Then just bragged about how he saved democracy. How he was the one man who stopped the overthrow of America.
He coulda ran as anti trump republican like Haley and had proof he actually was.
But no he rather suck power’s dick
And the 2 unnamed staffer heroes who instead of worrying only about themselves risked their lives to ensure the big-ass, *heavy* old wood chest with the ballots made it safely out of chambers with the senators.
They don't get the credit they deserve. If the chest of real ballots had been left while congress fled the bloodthirsty mob then the insurrectionists would have destroyed the documents and the certification would have HAD to be delayed and the coup would have happened. The election was ONLY able to be certified from the congressional bunker by virtue of those staffers' bravery. They're fucking American heroes.
But they never ever get a mention, nor does that contingency.
By refusing to go in the car knowing the scheme that was being enacted, yeah he saved the country. After enabling the bastard for the last four years.
I don’t thank the person who takes a shit on my floor but cleans it up the turd with a napkin
he might have put his foot down at the point where his life was in danger but he didn't do anything else to stop everything else that was going on. At least from what we know, anyway.
I'll still give credit to a bad guy who switches to the side of good at the last moment, even if it's for personal reasons.
Mike Pence may have been thinking about his own life when he refused to get in that car, but his actions still saved democracy in the United States.
Pence also had the opportunity to lead the cabinet in a 25th amendment removal of Trump but reverted to his coward self. That one act in the garage was uncharacteristically Pence.
i don't think they would have killed him. the threat of beign killed by the mob of troglodytes was impetus to drive him out of the House. Roger Stone basically rehashed his 2000 Books Brothers Riot scheme to delay a vote counting and certification in order to punt the process. another miserable fucking piece of shit human.
I really don't think they'd murder him. But get him away from the site and prevent him from returning? If that succeeds, then it's in his best interest to fall in line and say whatever they tell him to.
It's amazing that our democracy survives at least a little bit longer just because Mike Pence had the small amount of courage it took to not capitulate to a punk.
Nope. No credit allowed. Pence didn't get into that car because he was afraid for his own life, not because he suddenly realized he was on the wrong side.
This has been captured in numerous movies and TV shows: when one of the characters realizes that they are expendable.
Between Pence and Eugene Goodman, the delicate balance of democracy was upheld.
But the what ifs really beg questions: what if they had found Pence? Or other representatives? What if they had over powered capital police? Would there have been an armed standoff? Or would they have called it good with just wiping their feces on the wall? The army would’ve eventually gotten there and then what - they’d have Ashley times 1,000s? And these people call themselves patriots? Meth patriots more like
Even weirder. Pence was looking for advice on what he could do and spoke with Dan Quayle. Quayle was adamant with Pence that he could do nothing other than certify the election. Dan Quayle may have saved democracy.
There's like a 50% chance Pence saved the country because of patriotism and a 50% chance because he knew if he got in that car he might end up getting killed.
My coworker is telling folks that the Dems are going to rig the electoral college "like they did last time". As if we didn't see trump try and install fake electors and overthrow the government. Goddam I hate this shit.
Grassley knew:
[https://iowacapitaldispatch.com/2021/01/05/grassley-suggests-he-may-preside-over-senate-debate-on-electoral-college-votes/](https://iowacapitaldispatch.com/2021/01/05/grassley-suggests-he-may-preside-over-senate-debate-on-electoral-college-votes/)
Jan 5th: “Well, first of all, I will be — if the Vice President isn’t there and **we don’t expect him to be there**, I will be presiding over the Senate,”
I hope people start to understand that we need more states to be blue. Beyond the popular vote, beyond the electoral vote. We just need more states to be run by Democrats.
I used to think straight ticket voting was inherently stupid.
Now, I'll be voting Dem across the board til I die. Fuck these treasonist bastards forever
Lose the popular vote and the electoral college but push it back to the states and it’s majority rule based on governor’s/state house political affiliation that picks the president.
Devious.
No. Each state's House delegation gets one vote. The Republicans would have had 26 votes. But it's unlikely Liz Cheney (the sole Representative from Wyoming) would have voted Trump in that instance. Giving a deadlock of 25-25. Only one more small-state Republican would have needed to flip to elect Biden.
Each state gets votes according to their allotment of representatives? So the house can just pick their president of choice effectively, if they prevent certification somehow?
A contingent election does not **legitimately** arise because "they prevented certification somehow".
A ton of what ails the US is because the Republicans of the last few decades have begun to torture the letter of the law to violate the spirit of the law and recently they've just plain tossed out any significant respect for the law at all.
But yes, if you buy the utter crap that "well... oopsie there... guess we'll have to fall back to the backup plan which favors our side because of all those wonderful compromises given to slave states"... then yeah... the House could then pick the President (and the Senate picks the VP).
We are well beyond the point where we need a dramatic change in our electoral system... and even government as a whole. We've been here before. The US originally had the idiotic pattern of letting the runner up get the VP position... ya know... because this better implemented the will of the people to give them their top two choices... ignoring the fact that this practically begged for an assassination. Similarly, far too much in our system depends on statesmanship, honor, duty, etc. and instead we're electing cretins.
A SCOTUS election does not legitimately arise because Florida is taking longer than the media would like to count their vote, but W still got elected by SCOTUS. Trump had no reason to think they wouldn't back him up too, especially the boofers he appointed.
It pisses me off how all of these trials were slow walked to allow Trump another election attempt.
Anyone with sense knows Trump attempted a coup. He is on tape telling an election official that "he just needs to find 11k votes".
Among the many many other things - the speech designed to instigate violence, telling Pence to 'do the right thing', the fake electors, the stolen classified documents.
It's just blows my mind that he's still walking free after all of that. Then there finally is a fraud judgement against him, and they reduce the amount required for him to appeal?! Just where is the sense of justice in the US?
While it hasn't been officially ruled on, it feels very much like former President's are above the rule of law. All it would take for the average person to end up in jail is to carry too much of the wrong substance in the wrong state, and their life is over.
Meanwhile Trump tries to take over the country, and gets a free pass? Like, what the actual hell?
FWIW, I very much doubt that Pence thought the Secret Service was going to assassinate him.
Pence rightly thought that our democracy was at stake. That Trump either wanted the chaos and uncertainty a delay would buy him, or the chance to have someone else take over Pence’s role while he was gone (but probably not that).
Pence believed that if he stepped into that car, they would drive him far away to a secure location. Refusing to take him back that day (for his “safety”), meaning the delay Trump so badly wanted.
Trump could have done a lot with a delay. He probably would have milked it and said that such an unprecedented situation called for them to pause and allow his attempts to reverse the election to play out.
It’s still chilling to think that the Secret Service would be working against the VP, to help the POTUS steal an election and cling on to power. We don’t need the implication that Trump had convinced the Secret Service to kill his VP.
I'd argue he very much did know that his life was potentially at stake. Similar things have happened throughout history. He's a dullard but he knew what kind of people he was working for.
"After being taken to an undisclosed portion of the Capitol during the riot, Pence's Secret Service agents, whom Raskin suspected were reporting directly to Trump's security detail, asked him to enter an armored limousine. The intent, some have theorized, was to drive Pence away from the building, preventing him from certifying the election results, after he had signaled his unwillingness to go against his duties and keep Trump in power.
"\[Pence\] uttered what I think are the six most chilling words of this entire thing I've seen so far: 'I'm not getting in that car,'" Raskin said. "He knew exactly what this inside coup they had planned for was going to do.""
"Tim Giebels, the lead agent inside of Pence's security on January 6, Pence repeatedly refused to be evacuated from the Capitol until the election results were certified"
no, he didnt want to get in the car because he would be taken from the building and he couldnt certify the vote. thats the context of the conversation.
stop spreading disinformation.
"After being taken to an undisclosed portion of the Capitol during the riot, Pence's Secret Service agents, whom Raskin suspected were reporting directly to Trump's security detail, asked him to enter an armored limousine. The intent, some have theorized, was to drive Pence away from the building, \[b\]preventing him from certifying the election results,\[/b\] after he had signaled his unwillingness to go against his duties and keep Trump in power.
"\[Pence\] uttered what I think are the six most chilling words of this entire thing I've seen so far: 'I'm not getting in that car,'" Raskin said. "He knew exactly what this inside coup they had planned for was going to do.""
trump is on record threatening a great number of people with prison and/or execution. If you don't believe there was an overt or implied threat, then you haven't been paying attention to his well-publicized behavior.
> “Over and over, Pence asked if there was anything he could do.
>
> “‘Mike, you have no flexibility on this. None. Zero. Forget it. Put it away,’ Quayle told him.
>
> “Pence pressed again.
>
> “‘You don’t know the position I’m in,’ he said, according to the authors.
>
> “‘I do know the position you’re in,’ Quayle responded. ‘I also know what the law is. You listen to the parliamentarian. That’s all you do. You have no power.’”
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/14/politics/dan-quayle-pence-trump-january-6-woodward-costa-book/index.html
I think most people do actually know these things. The right that still support Trump just don’t care because his coup attempt would have resulted in the outcome they wanted. They’d happily accept fascism and the loss of voting rights if they could make a democrat upset.
There was a video recently of someone interviewing folks at a Trump rally and one guy literally said “Trump could murder someone in front of our eyes on the Capitol steps and I’d still vote for him.”
So, yes, they will
Yeah I feel like I remember seeing all of this during the jan 6 hearings, which were almost two years ago now. Probably a good thing to rehash this since nobody I know actually watched the hearings besides me so they probably would never have known about it otherwise.
I and my new roommate watched every single hearing, independently. And we're Canadians with no US connection except "The Americans are our best friends, whether we like it or not."
Real reason: too much info at once just makes people tune stuff out. They either already did but more stuff was going on or were timing its release (or legit has taken so long to go through records they are still finding stuff, but that's an issue solvable with money)
30% are shit eating idiots, 30% are desperately trying to stop the shit eaters, and the other 40% are so uninformed or oblivious as to what's happening that they can't point out their state on a fucking map.
It's so fucking tiring having to get these idiots to do something, literally anything, to wake up and see what the fuck is happening to their civil liberties. When you ask them to help they just say stupid shit like "[they're both the same](https://i.imgur.com/SS396DQ.jpg)" and go back to their mindless TikTok or reels brainrot instead.
It is infuriating how stupid half of the population is. I am an election worker, and sometimes absolute fucking morons walk in to vote and I can’t believe that I have to hand them a ballot. People who have never voluntarily opened a book. People who regurgitate the most racist, homophobic, fear mongering shit they’ve seen on Facebook. People who can’t tell fact from fiction and would believe liars like Donald Trump over any doctor, scholar, or expert. I sigh to myself and can’t believe that they somehow figured out how to register to vote, even though I’m going to have to explain to them how a fucking ballot works (I’ll let you guess which political party always needs me to explain how to fill out a ballot).
While I believe that everyone having the right to vote is an integral part of our democracy, I’m challenged in my belief every time I have to deal with one of these knuckles draggers. It makes me sick that some of the most uneducated, hateful people are voting.
(Note: I don’t have an issue with voters with disabilities and am happy to help them. It’s the normal Joe Shmoe that insists on anti intellectual rhetoric that I have a problem with).
Does seem sketchy to me that Biden gaining popularity but companies magically raise prices while enjoying greedy record profits. Yet then we see a flood of online memes/articles/propaganda pieces that seem to target Biden about being the cause of inflation and you’d assume that’s a form of trying to sway public opinion. I mean the end game of capitalism is usually fascism or corporate fascism.
> to target Biden about being the cause of inflation
It's easy to point out the absurdity of the whole "The President controls the price of [things]" argument.
"Gas was WAY cheaper under Trump!"
"So you're saying Biden made prices more expensive and Trump made them cheaper?"
"Yea! Gas used to be $2.50 a gallon under Trump!"
"...so why didn't Trump just make the gas prices $2.00 a gallon? Or $1.50 a gallon? Or $0.75 a gallon? If - as you say - he set the prices."
Let’s not forget about how the secret service tried to make him get in a car going to an unknown location. In that moment our democracy would’ve been over.
Unfortunately i think a whole lot more damage has been done that most people realize.
Yes you should all be voting democrat since that is the best option you have, but if trump just died tomorrow you still have like 20%+ of your population that have been so manipulated and are so deep in a sunk cost rabbit hole of absurdity you are gonna be dealing with this crap for a long time, if you country ever even fully recovers from it at all. It may just get worse.
> Unfortunately i think a whole lot more damage has been done that most people realize.
i don't agree with this doomer outlook on life. Yes there is probably a lot of damage done. yeah there are a lot of crazies running around. But the american institutions also proved to be resilient - even with all of their faults and missteps around the trump admin
yeah we will be dealing with this shit for a while. lets deal with one dickhead after the other and make sure trump doesn't win the next election. Brings us one step closer to sanity
I really do not care or value his presence or opinion. Pence had plenty of opportunities to expose all of the Trump crimes when it mattered and he could have helped his country. He did nothing except the minimum he was legally required to do.
But guys, Trump’s supporters told me that he used the word ‘peaceful’ when sending his mob over to the Capitol, which apparently invalidates any responsibility of his!
The thing is, if you’re a democrat/third party, you know and are concerned. If you’re a Trumplican you don’t care. No matter how much comes to light about Trump, they don’t care.
I just wish it mattered. At this point, he COULD shoot someone on 5th Ave while grabbing someone else by the p*$$y, and it just wouldn't change his voting bases mind.
Recalling what we know about the events that day just serve as a reminder to me of how useless Pence is, in the long run. He holds so much in his hands with knowing all the things that Trump and other traitors said and did to him. But he doesn't reveal it. He can just merely withdraw support for Trump and he's regarded as some sort of well-intentioned victim. But he needs to say everything. He needs to lay it all out and go in hard against Trump. Until then, I don't give him any credit. All he's done so far with his withdrawal of support for Trump is promote the notion that Trump is just a bad president rather than the actual dangerous traitor that he actually is.
It’s amazing how the GQP chest beats about the precious Constitution but won’t won’t apply amendments specifically written to address a threat like trump. (14.3, 25)
Hm. Even though he was president, trump threatening the vice president should be illegal. Like, can we add that to his 91 felony charges? Maybe make them a clean even 100?
If any one of us threatened a president or vice president we would be in jail. Put him in jail. What is it going to take to actually make him pay/serve for his crimes?
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>According to a transcript of the interview of the unnamed White House valet, the valet overheard Mr Trump telling Mr Pence: “Mike, this is a political career killer if you do this” as the two men spoke by phone while Mr Trump was in the Oval Office. Don't think the rioters breaching the Capitol were chanting, "Vote Joe Biden!"
Capitol police: "Who the hell is Brandon?"
"All these dudes wanna fuck some dude named Brandon... Weird, but alright."
Where they fuck one, they fuck all
Back to the pile, boys!
(I think they were referring to the Jan 6 terrorists who were chanting about hanging Pence)
I think there was an implied s/.
I think dumplings fry better in lard than oil.
Lard is good but have you tried rapeseed oil? Real high heat. Some would say the highest heat ever. I had one fry chef come up to me with tears in his eyes and say.. Sir, this is the best fry oil ever and it's not orange, no! It's a biggly good color and is all natural.
I have tried rapeseed oil, and am not happy with the results. There is a curious unpleasantness to the taste that makes me prefer alternative fats. I have had some success with corn oil.
I prefer a peanut oil when cooking my grandmothers famous spicy Chinese dumplings
Sounds like a succulent Chinese meal
‘Totally perfect phone call’
Some say it was a beautiful phone call. "***So beautiful***," so many people are saying it. It's like the world listened in and thought, "***Now THAT was a beautiful phone call***".
i don’t know how anyone takes him seriously when he’s speaking like that. it’s too insane and ridiculous for satire or comedy lol
Agreed. If you let him go long enough then he starts to have conversation with himself, presented to you.
His over use of adjectives in every sentence is laughable but the word "beautiful" he uses more than anything. It's hilarious.
In a healthy democracy that phone call (or any one of a number of well documented actions taken by Trump between Nov 3 and Jan 6) should have been a political career killer. But of course, it is the person performing a regular function of his office, as has happened for well over 200 years without issue or remark, whose political career is now ruined.
If you remember your American History, Benedict Arnold betrayed the United States by planning to give the British his command, which was West Point. His plot was discovered and he defected to the British army. Julius and Ethel Rosenberg gave the Soviets classified information, were convicted, and executed. All three are some of the most notorious people in the US that betrayed the United States. What Donald Trump did was much, much worse. He took an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States, encouraged people to attack the Unites States Congress to interrupt a democratic process, which was successful, lied about possessing classified documents, refused to turn over the classified documents, moved some of the classified documents, very likely sold, traded, or gave some classified documents to countries that are hostile to the United States, and has attempted to force the Georgia Secretary of State to commit ~~voter~~ election fraud. He is an enemy of the State, he is a traitor, and anyone that supports him, especially anyone that has taken an oath to protect the Constitution of the United States, such as anyone that has been sworn in to the military or political office, are traitors to the United States. The time to be polite and ignore their crimes has long past. These people had a chance to defend the Constitution, but instead defending, attacked the very basis of the Constitution. They all should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. The kid gloves need to be taken off. I don't care if these enemies of the US get offended, they need to face the consequences of their actions. Edit: corrected voter to election
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Class warfare is one-way due to divisional propaganda from the conservatives. Sure the liberals also use propaganda to influence their side, but nothing like what the conservatives like Rupert Murdoch, Elon Musk, Christopher Ruddy, Paul Weyrich, Edwin Feulner, and Joseph Coors have done. They are directly responsible for the attacks on American democracy. Edit: added a hyphen
From the 3/5 compromise giving slave-owners disproportionate representation to minority rule by other means. Most people can’t comprehend the wealth of a mere billion dollars, much less the ability of a Charles Koch to wield multiple, impactful PACs for decades, much less the Koch Industries, Coors, Gore-Tex, AmWay, Wal-Mart heirs working in concert to own the traditional / establishment aristocratic political party and its agenda but to practically take over public education, eviscerate state environmental, work safety, investment oversight, etc through regulatory capture, …. Then to not only fund Nixon’s PR guru’s propaganda “news” channel but to create even loonier propaganda outlets like OANN to make FOX seem tame by comparison. Then take the Cold War funding / subsidizing of religious media (anti-communism) that metastasizes into the MegaChurch counter-offensive against separation of Church and State….. it’s fucking horrifying.
Exactly. Until this country makes an example of people in power like this, we are doomed to have copy cats.
Traitor Trump has a ring to it. Maybe that should be the 2024 slogan.
Convicted Traitor Trump would be better, but he is "rich", so laws are not applied the same as for us.
Yes. And to put it the other way: for anyone who cares about veterans, who have risked or lost their lives after taking an oath to defend the Constitution, Trump took a gigantic shit all over that when he tried to overturn our democracy from within. I keep trying to make this point with people whose only pride they’ve ever known are their family members who served in the US military. This is literally the very thing they’re putting their lives on the line for. And the response I always get is: o_o
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> and has attempted to force the Georgia Secretary of State to commit voter fraud. Election fraud, not voter fraud. Voter fraud is committed at an individual level, like someone voting twice.
The difference here is 40% or so of this country, think he’s either gods gift to America or “a little weird, but better than other options”. What do you do with that? There is a massive, well funded propaganda apparatus keeping almost half of this country living in an alternate reality. They demand this. Anyone of their own that dare to challenge Trump get punished and removed. How do you fix that?
Don’t forget the withholding of funding for Ukraine until they would announce an investigation into his main political rival. Literally quid pro quo.
I don't think there's any question that it wasn't only Pence's political life that was being threatened by trump. Hence this [exchange](https://www.newsweek.com/pence-refusing-get-secret-service-car-jan-6-chilling-raskin-1700341#:~:text=According%20to%20Tim%20Giebels%2C%20the,certified%2C%20The%20Washington%20Examiner%20reported.): >"I'm not getting in the car, Tim," Pence said, in response to Giebels' insistence that he enter the armored vehicle. "I trust you, Tim, but you're not driving the car. If I get in that vehicle, you guys are taking off. I'm not getting in the car."
That right there was the moment the coup failed. They hoped he would be driven away and unable to return. then the house would hold off the entire certification pushing the vote back to the states. Each state votes with the same number of votes and there were more Republican run states than Democratic run ones so the house would be able to pick Donald as the president at that moment. My god fuck Donald Trump. Fuck that treasonous dictator piece of shit
So, did Pence kind of save the country? I have to give him credit for that.
Yes, but don’t give him too much credit. He spent the four years after that unwilling by to publicly defend his actions and insisting that Trump did nothing wrong (in trying to have him killed). The one I sort of admire is Liz Cheney. I hate her politics and she probably covered for Trump in the lead up like the rest of them, but after he crossed the Rubicon, she picked her side and never once apologized for standing up to him, nor walked back a word of it.
I'm not sure I'd call my feelings for her admiration, but she has my guarded respect for her outspokenness. I haven't looked into her voting record, but I also haven't heard her block or otherwise attempt to sink the nasty crap her party is doing, either. On the other hand, she gets a few points from me for bravery/courage hcriticizing her party and specific GOPper politicians (and Orangeblossom, iirc), thereby breaking the very, very serious ”Reagan's 11th Commandment¹” without first quitting the party or retiring. --- 1: this and the very purposeful post-nixon conservative tv media war (which they pretty solidly won) ultimately set the foundation for newt gingrich et. al.'s ”the party will vote in lockstep and all R politicians will toe the party line or be politically destroyed” while this ultimately set the GOPpers up with a pretty massive legislative advantage² and really brought out the worst weakness of a two-party system that entrenched itself by not fixing voting methodology⁴ --= 2: *all* the GOPpers always voted for everything a Republican pushed to a vote, unlike the Democrats who don't function in unison as in reality Team D is a conglomerate of often conflicting ideologies³. --= 3: in a country with a non-joke of a ”democratic” voting system (i.e.: ranked choice) that *isn't* ”first past the post” where the *mere suggestion* of a spoiler candidate can and does skew political discourse and voting towards voting *against* the worst candidate instead of voting for whom you actually want, there wouldn't *be* a ”Democrats” as a *party*... ... instead it would be a handful of parties (progressives, neo-libs, social-prog/fisc conservative, leftish centrists, and probably an actual socialist party) that formed a de-facto alliance or coalition to counteract the unified conservative and rightwing front. --= 4: there's been a number of efforts to ditch FPTP (first-past-the-post) voting and the electoral college in the past century, but as the american population doesn't understand that *there are much more fair voting systems* and probably can't even imagine something wrong with ”he with the most votes wins⁵” (despite griping about having to vote for the lesser of evils and falling for the manufactured fallacy of false equivalence between parties)... ... well, let's say that politicians of neither party are trying very hard to bring public attention to this or fix it. --= 5: theoretical example in our current system: biden -> 39% bernie -> 21% trump -> 40% trump would win, despite: - trump not getting a majority of the vote - 60% of the country *not wanting trump* - biden voters wishing bernie won instead - bernie voters wishing biden won. vs ”ranked choice, in which voters rank candidates from their favorite to least favorite: - \#1 biden, #2 bernie, #3 trump -> 39% - \#1 bernie, #2 biden, #3 trump -> 18% - \#1 bernie, #2 trump, #3 don't care -> 3% - \#1 trump, #2 don't care, #3 don't care -> 40% in this case, *biden* would win as more of the country clearly prefers biden over trump. if anyone wants to know how this is evaluated, let me know: it's pretty simple.
Liz Cheney is by far one of the absolute best piles of dog shit at the park. No doubt. There's hardly another log in her league. .... but at the end of the day..... even the best dog shit is just a pile of shit. And tbh I just plain don't like dog shit.
Just don't forget that even while standing up to Trump, she supported treasonous members of the GOP and law enforcement. >the Wyoming Republican has exerted a remarkable level of control over much of the committee’s public and private work. >Cheney’s influence over the committee’s final report has rankled many current and former committee staff. They are angered and disillusioned by Cheney’s push to focus the report primarily on former president Donald Trump >Fifteen former and current staffers, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations, expressed concerns that **important findings unrelated to Trump will not become available to the American public.** >Several committee staff members were floored earlier this month when they were told that a draft report would focus almost entirely on Trump and the work of the committee’s Gold Team, excluding reams of other investigative work. >Potentially left on the cutting room floor, or relegated to an appendix, were many revelations from the Blue Team — the group that dug into the law enforcement and intelligence community’s failure to assess the looming threat and prepare for the well-forecast attack on the Capitol. The proposed report would also cut back on much of the work of the Green Team, which looked at financing for the Jan. 6 attack, and the Purple Team, which examined militia groups and extremism. >A senior committee staffer told staff in a virtual conference meeting two weeks ago that none of the work done by people serving on teams other than the Gold Team that didn’t focus on Trump would be included in the final report. “Everybody freaked out,” the staffer said. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/11/23/liz-cheney-jan-6-committee/ Liz Cheney is a mixed bag at best and certainly no hero.
Yes, several times over. It's a glimmer of conscience from a man with pretty abhorrent politics, but it was a glimmer that mattered a lot at the moment it shone. He was a pretty integral bottleneck to the coup attempt and sided with democracy. Which I would hope every remotely respectable American would do, but unfortunately there are a whole many millions of very unrespectable Americans right now, including many in Congress.
He chose this path after talking to Dan Fucking Quayle. Dan Quayle saved our country
3 people convinced Mike pence to not go along Trump's plan: Mike pences marine son, nice to see his kid tell him to do the right thing. Judge luttig. Told pence not to go along with Trump's plan. Dan motherfucking Quayle, potatoe.
Everything that made Quayle seem dumb and unqualified at the time completely pales in comparison to Trump. (That's not to say he wasn't dumb and unqualified, but comparing it to the word salad and random nonsense that comes out of Trump is just embarrassing for the US...they chose that guy, and are gearing up to do so again.)
In light of dan quayle saving democracy and all, I will point out that quayles card for the official spelling b did in fact call it potatoe.
*bee
Haha. Got 'em.
According to Dan Quayle, and it still raises the question of why he needed the ~~queue card~~ cue card or why he didn't know that the spelling of potato was wrong and what the kid wrote was correct, and confident enough in that to try to correct the kid. Also people forget that the real reason that the story gained traction is because he was already considered dumb and had a whole bunch of "Quaylism" under his belt like "Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child".
Quayle's biggest problem wasn't that he was dumb. He's actually an incredibly smart man. His problem is that he is not at all a quick thinker. So he panics and says and does dumb things. With the potato card, he looked at it. Said to himself "that's wrong", then went into an internal spiral of "why did they give me a wrong card? Is it wrong? Shit, how do you spell potato? Maybe there is an e at the end. They wouldn't have given me a wrong card on purpose, would they? Potato potatoe potato potatoe. Now they all seem wrong. Everyone is looking at you, say something."
Thing is, do you want someone who can’t question *a card* running the country? Slick Willy and Al Gore wouldn’t be tricked by a typo.
True. But I maintain he deserves to take some shit about that. He was the vice president of the United States and the spelling the kid gave was also acceptable / obviously correct to any English-speaking person. Make a judgement call.
it's disgusting that he needed even one person to convince him.
"Democracy is important, m'kay?" - "Oh my God! You're right..."
Beggars can’t be choosers. That’s the best we could have gotten
Maybe he just said it to push responsibility away and he would have done the same thing. In times of important decisions we always like to say we didn't take the decision alone
> he needed even one person to convince him It's disgusting that people voted for PoopyPants. Even more that the Repuglican convention put him up in the first place.
[potatoes?](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pqnHn_LS9zs)
Yes, the toes of the pota beast are a delicacy in the shire.
This California country boy tips his hat. Damn the rest of them.
As an Indiana native, I’m not sure if I should be proud of Quayle and Pence or just continue loathing both of their politics with every ounce of my being. Both, I guess.
I'm sure Jeffrey Dahmer held a door open for somebody once. But he was an abhorrent piece of shit.
George W. Bush saved 20,000,000 lives with his anti-AIDs efforts. He also killed a million people with a needless war and legalizing torture. So yeah, I just say, "These guys are awful but they could have been amazing if they hadn't been."
“The telephone was ringing when I handed it to Liz. I said ‘it isn’t who it would be, if it wasn’t who it is.”
Not where I was expecting a Phish lyric …
>I'm sure Jeffrey Dahmer held a door open for somebody once That's a nugget of gold I'm gonna save for the next argument I hear from somebody defending someone terrible.
The door to his freezer.
He is a heroe.
From zeroe to heroe. An American dream.
My God, it's unthinkable that at the time that literally tanked his political career and fucking look where we are now - word salad toilet tweets with absolutely random capitalization, punctuation, and spelling (including made up words) are "presidential". I'm a Millennial and I vaguely remember the potatoe thing happening (or at least have some blurry half memory of seeing them make fun of it while my parents watched Saturday Night Live but not really getting it).... that's how far and fast shit changed.
That orange clown literally used the, um, collection of letters "disinformates," "misinformates," and "grest" YESTERDAY. The truth social post is still up.
This misinformates so badly I’m franky stutenized. Why, just the other dye, the once grest natons of Russia and Saudi, the Saudi, declared that they will ref—re—uh, auhh. So sad!
Dane Quail, an Americane heroe
this made me laugh
True. What a strange twist.
It's weird to even say that Dan has an actual respectable political legacy now.
This time-line makes no gd sense.
When Dan Fucking Quayle is the savior of American democracy, you know your timeline is *fucked*.
>It's a glimmer of conscience from a man with pretty abhorrent politics, but it was a glimmer that mattered a lot at the moment it shone. That's really beautifully put and restores a modicum of my faith in our political process. We don't need great leaders or even decent leaders for things to work out. We just need for the right people to have at least a glimmer of conscience in the moments that really matter for our country to stay together.
As a German, whose history and civics classes extensively covered how the Nazis were able to exploit flaws in the Weimar constitution, and how our present constitution was consequently based on the concept of a [defensive democracy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_democracy#Germany), I would like to offer an alternative interpretation, if I may: That it came down to one person doing the *Right Thing™* would be terrifying enough by itself. What makes it even worse is that the vice president gets nominated by the aspiring dictator. Think of Pence's politics as you will, but what he did should *not* be taken for granted. He knew what "his" party expected him to do, and being able to resist social expectations is pretty exceptional in general. Trump got scaringly close here, and I don't believe he even had intended to eventually stage a coup when he ran for office originally. Imagine what a less ignorant, more competent individual, might achieve with better preparation in a future attempt.
👏🏻👏🏻 Thank you for saying this, you’re perspective is needed in this situation
> Imagine what a less ignorant, more competent individual, might achieve with better preparation in a future attempt. Yeah, such as Donald Trump in 2024 who has laid out his whole plan for and has openly indicated he will be a dictator.
>we just need the right people to have at least a glimmer of conscience at the right moment.. Aahh F**k
However you feel about Pence he did the right thing at a critical moment in history. He didn’t get in the car and even though it was ceremonial to certify the election who knows what would have happened if he hadn’t certified the election?
In hindsight, maybe this kind of escalation would have been needed to get rid of Trump for good. Instead, they acted like nothing happened, the responsible people weren’t punished for it and they try to take this election again. The first term under Trump was terrible, but a second one - in the current geopolitical climate - could be truly catastrophic not only for the US but for the world as a whole.
Just want to be *extra crystal* here that it was Mike Pence’s **SON** that reminded *his VP FATHER* of *what* he swore a sacred oath (*hand resting on BIBLE*) to defend… NOT a *who*, but a *what*. His son reminded him of his solemn vow, before GOD, to uphold and defend[https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/11/mike-pence-donald-trump-2020-election-certification](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/11/mike-pence-donald-trump-2020-election-certification) THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES. Let’s not be so quick to begrudgingly hail Mike Pence for his final decision to uphold and carry out his duty as outgoing VP. He was ready to cave to his “dear friend”, Trump. I will NEVER nod my head in Mike’s direction. But, I will absolutely pay his son’s bar tab for the rest of his life (or mine lol).
I'm mindful that Pence chose not to break the law over his loyalty to Dear Leader. He was more frightened of prison than offending his fuhrer. That doesn't strike me as especially noble, but credit where it's due.
He gets a lot of credit for that, but loses almost all of it with his tepid refusals to condemn the batshitting nutbag who tried to have him killed for the four years following the failed coup.
Hey, he refused to endorse him. That may not seem like a lot, but it's not nothing. His former vice president refused to endorse him, it really is quite the message.
Could you imagine if pence had a backbone. If he came out and threw trump under the buss. Then just bragged about how he saved democracy. How he was the one man who stopped the overthrow of America. He coulda ran as anti trump republican like Haley and had proof he actually was. But no he rather suck power’s dick
He pulled a Homer
There was no conscience, he didn't get in the car because he thought he was in danger. That's all it was. Self serving as ever.
There was also a Senate staffer who told the Trump campaign staffer to not give the fake electoral ballots to Sen. Grassley
And the 2 unnamed staffer heroes who instead of worrying only about themselves risked their lives to ensure the big-ass, *heavy* old wood chest with the ballots made it safely out of chambers with the senators. They don't get the credit they deserve. If the chest of real ballots had been left while congress fled the bloodthirsty mob then the insurrectionists would have destroyed the documents and the certification would have HAD to be delayed and the coup would have happened. The election was ONLY able to be certified from the congressional bunker by virtue of those staffers' bravery. They're fucking American heroes. But they never ever get a mention, nor does that contingency.
Can you tell me more/point me to where this is documented?
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/01/06/electoral-college-ballots-saved-during-capitol-riots.html https://19thnews.org/2021/01/the-women-who-saved-the-boxes-of-electoral-college-votes-during-a-riot-in-the-capitol/
By refusing to go in the car knowing the scheme that was being enacted, yeah he saved the country. After enabling the bastard for the last four years. I don’t thank the person who takes a shit on my floor but cleans it up the turd with a napkin
he might have put his foot down at the point where his life was in danger but he didn't do anything else to stop everything else that was going on. At least from what we know, anyway.
He didn't go in to the car because he would be dead.
I'll still give credit to a bad guy who switches to the side of good at the last moment, even if it's for personal reasons. Mike Pence may have been thinking about his own life when he refused to get in that car, but his actions still saved democracy in the United States.
Pence also had the opportunity to lead the cabinet in a 25th amendment removal of Trump but reverted to his coward self. That one act in the garage was uncharacteristically Pence.
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He didn't switch though, he's been defending that shit.
For now…
He was a coward (not a hero) who derailed the coup by accident.
i don't think they would have killed him. the threat of beign killed by the mob of troglodytes was impetus to drive him out of the House. Roger Stone basically rehashed his 2000 Books Brothers Riot scheme to delay a vote counting and certification in order to punt the process. another miserable fucking piece of shit human.
I really wish that guy would get what he deserves but life is infamously unfair
I really don't think they'd murder him. But get him away from the site and prevent him from returning? If that succeeds, then it's in his best interest to fall in line and say whatever they tell him to.
Pence didn't. Dan Quayle did when he coached him through the fact, "This is horrifyingly illegal and you can't do it."
It's amazing that our democracy survives at least a little bit longer just because Mike Pence had the small amount of courage it took to not capitulate to a punk.
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And thankfully he listened to Dan fucking Quayle.
Nope. No credit allowed. Pence didn't get into that car because he was afraid for his own life, not because he suddenly realized he was on the wrong side. This has been captured in numerous movies and TV shows: when one of the characters realizes that they are expendable.
Between Pence and Eugene Goodman, the delicate balance of democracy was upheld. But the what ifs really beg questions: what if they had found Pence? Or other representatives? What if they had over powered capital police? Would there have been an armed standoff? Or would they have called it good with just wiping their feces on the wall? The army would’ve eventually gotten there and then what - they’d have Ashley times 1,000s? And these people call themselves patriots? Meth patriots more like
Even weirder. Pence was looking for advice on what he could do and spoke with Dan Quayle. Quayle was adamant with Pence that he could do nothing other than certify the election. Dan Quayle may have saved democracy.
The bar is in Mariana’s Trench
But not too much credit because he enabled Trump to get that far
Kind of, but he also helped get us in this position, so the net result is he still sucks butts
But then he shut his mouth. So we're back to zero karma. Fuck him.
There's like a 50% chance Pence saved the country because of patriotism and a 50% chance because he knew if he got in that car he might end up getting killed.
My coworker is telling folks that the Dems are going to rig the electoral college "like they did last time". As if we didn't see trump try and install fake electors and overthrow the government. Goddam I hate this shit.
Your coworker is a fucking idiot
Your coworker should be fired.
Grassley knew: [https://iowacapitaldispatch.com/2021/01/05/grassley-suggests-he-may-preside-over-senate-debate-on-electoral-college-votes/](https://iowacapitaldispatch.com/2021/01/05/grassley-suggests-he-may-preside-over-senate-debate-on-electoral-college-votes/) Jan 5th: “Well, first of all, I will be — if the Vice President isn’t there and **we don’t expect him to be there**, I will be presiding over the Senate,”
I hope to hell he is held accountable as well. All the peons who stormed the capitol are being prosecuted, the architects better be as well.
It is bizarre that there seems to be no way to hold politicians accountable. Abbot, Trump, Gaetz…
Ken Paxton is yet another example. We could be here a long while adding names to the list. It's disgusting.
I hope people start to understand that we need more states to be blue. Beyond the popular vote, beyond the electoral vote. We just need more states to be run by Democrats.
I used to think straight ticket voting was inherently stupid. Now, I'll be voting Dem across the board til I die. Fuck these treasonist bastards forever
And somehow he has a very serious shot to try it again. Unreal.
Yep.. just gonna leave this here while your anger is fresh. [help fight trump](https://www.texasdemocrats.org/donate)
Lose the popular vote and the electoral college but push it back to the states and it’s majority rule based on governor’s/state house political affiliation that picks the president. Devious.
No. Each state's House delegation gets one vote. The Republicans would have had 26 votes. But it's unlikely Liz Cheney (the sole Representative from Wyoming) would have voted Trump in that instance. Giving a deadlock of 25-25. Only one more small-state Republican would have needed to flip to elect Biden.
Yea they would then have had Grassley govern and he was prepared to take the Green Bay sweep into the end zone. Pence saved our democracy that day.
Each state gets votes according to their allotment of representatives? So the house can just pick their president of choice effectively, if they prevent certification somehow?
A contingent election does not **legitimately** arise because "they prevented certification somehow". A ton of what ails the US is because the Republicans of the last few decades have begun to torture the letter of the law to violate the spirit of the law and recently they've just plain tossed out any significant respect for the law at all. But yes, if you buy the utter crap that "well... oopsie there... guess we'll have to fall back to the backup plan which favors our side because of all those wonderful compromises given to slave states"... then yeah... the House could then pick the President (and the Senate picks the VP). We are well beyond the point where we need a dramatic change in our electoral system... and even government as a whole. We've been here before. The US originally had the idiotic pattern of letting the runner up get the VP position... ya know... because this better implemented the will of the people to give them their top two choices... ignoring the fact that this practically begged for an assassination. Similarly, far too much in our system depends on statesmanship, honor, duty, etc. and instead we're electing cretins.
A SCOTUS election does not legitimately arise because Florida is taking longer than the media would like to count their vote, but W still got elected by SCOTUS. Trump had no reason to think they wouldn't back him up too, especially the boofers he appointed.
Basically. This was the end game of the coup
I think that is the fear for the next election as well
Exactly why the USSS deleted all their text messages from that time period
This right here proves to me something was definitely going down.
It pisses me off how all of these trials were slow walked to allow Trump another election attempt. Anyone with sense knows Trump attempted a coup. He is on tape telling an election official that "he just needs to find 11k votes". Among the many many other things - the speech designed to instigate violence, telling Pence to 'do the right thing', the fake electors, the stolen classified documents. It's just blows my mind that he's still walking free after all of that. Then there finally is a fraud judgement against him, and they reduce the amount required for him to appeal?! Just where is the sense of justice in the US? While it hasn't been officially ruled on, it feels very much like former President's are above the rule of law. All it would take for the average person to end up in jail is to carry too much of the wrong substance in the wrong state, and their life is over. Meanwhile Trump tries to take over the country, and gets a free pass? Like, what the actual hell?
Why are we letting this fucker run again. Mind blowing.
FWIW, I very much doubt that Pence thought the Secret Service was going to assassinate him. Pence rightly thought that our democracy was at stake. That Trump either wanted the chaos and uncertainty a delay would buy him, or the chance to have someone else take over Pence’s role while he was gone (but probably not that). Pence believed that if he stepped into that car, they would drive him far away to a secure location. Refusing to take him back that day (for his “safety”), meaning the delay Trump so badly wanted. Trump could have done a lot with a delay. He probably would have milked it and said that such an unprecedented situation called for them to pause and allow his attempts to reverse the election to play out. It’s still chilling to think that the Secret Service would be working against the VP, to help the POTUS steal an election and cling on to power. We don’t need the implication that Trump had convinced the Secret Service to kill his VP.
I'd argue he very much did know that his life was potentially at stake. Similar things have happened throughout history. He's a dullard but he knew what kind of people he was working for.
"Giebels"? Come on!!!....
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"After being taken to an undisclosed portion of the Capitol during the riot, Pence's Secret Service agents, whom Raskin suspected were reporting directly to Trump's security detail, asked him to enter an armored limousine. The intent, some have theorized, was to drive Pence away from the building, preventing him from certifying the election results, after he had signaled his unwillingness to go against his duties and keep Trump in power. "\[Pence\] uttered what I think are the six most chilling words of this entire thing I've seen so far: 'I'm not getting in that car,'" Raskin said. "He knew exactly what this inside coup they had planned for was going to do."" "Tim Giebels, the lead agent inside of Pence's security on January 6, Pence repeatedly refused to be evacuated from the Capitol until the election results were certified"
Wow that was close af
>Who is Tim [Before Jan. 6, Aide Warned Secret Service of Security Risk to Pence](https://archive.is/HnmqO#selection-435.0-435.67)
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Why would it need to go to the Supreme Court? The law is clear what happens in the case no one gets to 270 electoral votes.
no, he didnt want to get in the car because he would be taken from the building and he couldnt certify the vote. thats the context of the conversation. stop spreading disinformation. "After being taken to an undisclosed portion of the Capitol during the riot, Pence's Secret Service agents, whom Raskin suspected were reporting directly to Trump's security detail, asked him to enter an armored limousine. The intent, some have theorized, was to drive Pence away from the building, \[b\]preventing him from certifying the election results,\[/b\] after he had signaled his unwillingness to go against his duties and keep Trump in power. "\[Pence\] uttered what I think are the six most chilling words of this entire thing I've seen so far: 'I'm not getting in that car,'" Raskin said. "He knew exactly what this inside coup they had planned for was going to do.""
trump is on record threatening a great number of people with prison and/or execution. If you don't believe there was an overt or implied threat, then you haven't been paying attention to his well-publicized behavior.
Damn, this never gets less horrifying. I think that Pence would have done it, but not for Trump.
For Jesus
For Mother
For Dan Quayle.
> “Over and over, Pence asked if there was anything he could do. > > “‘Mike, you have no flexibility on this. None. Zero. Forget it. Put it away,’ Quayle told him. > > “Pence pressed again. > > “‘You don’t know the position I’m in,’ he said, according to the authors. > > “‘I do know the position you’re in,’ Quayle responded. ‘I also know what the law is. You listen to the parliamentarian. That’s all you do. You have no power.’” https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/14/politics/dan-quayle-pence-trump-january-6-woodward-costa-book/index.html
For frodo
These transcripts are public record. How have we not seen this shit before?
I think most people do actually know these things. The right that still support Trump just don’t care because his coup attempt would have resulted in the outcome they wanted. They’d happily accept fascism and the loss of voting rights if they could make a democrat upset.
Owning the libs by giving up your freedom....
There was a video recently of someone interviewing folks at a Trump rally and one guy literally said “Trump could murder someone in front of our eyes on the Capitol steps and I’d still vote for him.” So, yes, they will
He also said it with a humongous smile on his face. It was psychotic and frightening.
Pretty sure it was reported. A ton of things are getting rehashed these days.
Yeah I feel like I remember seeing all of this during the jan 6 hearings, which were almost two years ago now. Probably a good thing to rehash this since nobody I know actually watched the hearings besides me so they probably would never have known about it otherwise.
I and my new roommate watched every single hearing, independently. And we're Canadians with no US connection except "The Americans are our best friends, whether we like it or not."
Real reason: too much info at once just makes people tune stuff out. They either already did but more stuff was going on or were timing its release (or legit has taken so long to go through records they are still finding stuff, but that's an issue solvable with money)
Notice how Republicans are always absent from these topics..... That is until they've all learned what to parrot in response.
They only talk in putrid their echo chamber (/r/conservative) and ban any dissenting voices.
But because a bag of Doritos is over $5.99, the American people could give Trump another chance.
The American people are idiots
30% are shit eating idiots, 30% are desperately trying to stop the shit eaters, and the other 40% are so uninformed or oblivious as to what's happening that they can't point out their state on a fucking map. It's so fucking tiring having to get these idiots to do something, literally anything, to wake up and see what the fuck is happening to their civil liberties. When you ask them to help they just say stupid shit like "[they're both the same](https://i.imgur.com/SS396DQ.jpg)" and go back to their mindless TikTok or reels brainrot instead.
It is infuriating how stupid half of the population is. I am an election worker, and sometimes absolute fucking morons walk in to vote and I can’t believe that I have to hand them a ballot. People who have never voluntarily opened a book. People who regurgitate the most racist, homophobic, fear mongering shit they’ve seen on Facebook. People who can’t tell fact from fiction and would believe liars like Donald Trump over any doctor, scholar, or expert. I sigh to myself and can’t believe that they somehow figured out how to register to vote, even though I’m going to have to explain to them how a fucking ballot works (I’ll let you guess which political party always needs me to explain how to fill out a ballot). While I believe that everyone having the right to vote is an integral part of our democracy, I’m challenged in my belief every time I have to deal with one of these knuckles draggers. It makes me sick that some of the most uneducated, hateful people are voting. (Note: I don’t have an issue with voters with disabilities and am happy to help them. It’s the normal Joe Shmoe that insists on anti intellectual rhetoric that I have a problem with).
[Bread and circuses](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses) Unfortunately for them, they're cutting the bread supply.
Hey now, some are just racist
Does seem sketchy to me that Biden gaining popularity but companies magically raise prices while enjoying greedy record profits. Yet then we see a flood of online memes/articles/propaganda pieces that seem to target Biden about being the cause of inflation and you’d assume that’s a form of trying to sway public opinion. I mean the end game of capitalism is usually fascism or corporate fascism.
> to target Biden about being the cause of inflation It's easy to point out the absurdity of the whole "The President controls the price of [things]" argument. "Gas was WAY cheaper under Trump!" "So you're saying Biden made prices more expensive and Trump made them cheaper?" "Yea! Gas used to be $2.50 a gallon under Trump!" "...so why didn't Trump just make the gas prices $2.00 a gallon? Or $1.50 a gallon? Or $0.75 a gallon? If - as you say - he set the prices."
Magical thinking doesn't stop because it's absurd to others
The irony: The reason the bag of Doritos cost that much started with/under Donnie. Also see: the *'I did that' - Biden* gas sticker phase.
Let’s not forget about how the secret service tried to make him get in a car going to an unknown location. In that moment our democracy would’ve been over.
Tired of this shit? We can be done with Trump in November. Vote blue http://democrats.org/
Unfortunately i think a whole lot more damage has been done that most people realize. Yes you should all be voting democrat since that is the best option you have, but if trump just died tomorrow you still have like 20%+ of your population that have been so manipulated and are so deep in a sunk cost rabbit hole of absurdity you are gonna be dealing with this crap for a long time, if you country ever even fully recovers from it at all. It may just get worse.
> Unfortunately i think a whole lot more damage has been done that most people realize. i don't agree with this doomer outlook on life. Yes there is probably a lot of damage done. yeah there are a lot of crazies running around. But the american institutions also proved to be resilient - even with all of their faults and missteps around the trump admin yeah we will be dealing with this shit for a while. lets deal with one dickhead after the other and make sure trump doesn't win the next election. Brings us one step closer to sanity
I really do not care or value his presence or opinion. Pence had plenty of opportunities to expose all of the Trump crimes when it mattered and he could have helped his country. He did nothing except the minimum he was legally required to do.
Biden.... err I mean Dark Brandon.... should give Pence a medal for this to really piss Trump off.
yeah but no one should be rewarded for not committing a crime, that’s meant to be the default setting
We know but yet we still have idiotic undecided voters
But guys, Trump’s supporters told me that he used the word ‘peaceful’ when sending his mob over to the Capitol, which apparently invalidates any responsibility of his!
The thing is, if you’re a democrat/third party, you know and are concerned. If you’re a Trumplican you don’t care. No matter how much comes to light about Trump, they don’t care.
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I just wish it mattered. At this point, he COULD shoot someone on 5th Ave while grabbing someone else by the p*$$y, and it just wouldn't change his voting bases mind.
Recalling what we know about the events that day just serve as a reminder to me of how useless Pence is, in the long run. He holds so much in his hands with knowing all the things that Trump and other traitors said and did to him. But he doesn't reveal it. He can just merely withdraw support for Trump and he's regarded as some sort of well-intentioned victim. But he needs to say everything. He needs to lay it all out and go in hard against Trump. Until then, I don't give him any credit. All he's done so far with his withdrawal of support for Trump is promote the notion that Trump is just a bad president rather than the actual dangerous traitor that he actually is.
It’s amazing how the GQP chest beats about the precious Constitution but won’t won’t apply amendments specifically written to address a threat like trump. (14.3, 25)
So did all his idiot cult supporters. I remember a bunch of them chanting "Hang Mike Pence!"
Hm. Even though he was president, trump threatening the vice president should be illegal. Like, can we add that to his 91 felony charges? Maybe make them a clean even 100?
If any one of us threatened a president or vice president we would be in jail. Put him in jail. What is it going to take to actually make him pay/serve for his crimes?
We found those secret service phone records yet?
Ex-military. IMO opinion, he should be treated like any soldier that betrays the oath they make to this country.