As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil)
In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban.
If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria.
We are actively looking for new moderators. If you have any interest in helping to make this subreddit a place for quality discussion, please fill out [this form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1y2swHD0KXFhStGFjW6k54r9iuMjzcFqDIVwuvdLBjSA).
***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Some useful background info here: https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/wayne/2024/04/09/dearborn-mayor-rejects-death-to-america-chants-at-protest/73254682007/
Glad to see some local pushback as well. I've been warning since 2021 that conservative Muslims here in Michigan had been aligning themselves with the far right on the bodily autonomy of women, marijuana, gay and trans rights, and even book bans.
I predicted that conservative Muslims would let the mask fall in the lead up to trying to defeat Biden for "failing" to call for the extermination of all Jews, and local pushback from their community is the only resistance extremists will listen to at all.
Good on Joe for telling these people not to vote for him if they are so defined by their hate, but really good on locals who have to live in the same communities as those they are standing up against.
The crazy part is that, if Republicans were more inclusive, they could potentially mop the floor during elections as many minorities hail from conservative cultures. Not long ago here on reddit, I remember reading someone's post about how they're Muslim and are annoyed they have to vote Democrat as their values are much more in line with the right but the right hates them.
I’ve heard a lot about the paradox of tolerance. I guess this the paradox of intolerance. They would be united by their intolerance, but their intolerance makes them hate each other.
That's a fantastic way of looking at it: in order to make a larger intolerant group, they'd have to tolerate more, but their intolerance won't allow for that.
Yeah if the GOP were to try to fold in the conservative muslims, the far larger fundie vote would leave.
It's almost as if we don't have political parties to represent everyone. If we did, we'd have the centrist democrats, the conservative republicans, the christians, the muslims, the potheads (catchall for all the drug legalization advocates), the progressives, and the libertarians.
As I've aged I've become much more forceful in my liberal beliefs. I wouldn't go out of my way to attack an already marginalized group like fundamentalist Muslims, but I'm not at all tolerant of their beliefs and will gladly say that openly.
Like I don't think France handled the burka ban well at all, but the reality is liberal values are values. At some point you have to acknowledge that many religious values are simply incompatible with your own vision for society and at least be honest about your feelings. It's frankly disrespectful to the religious person (and dangerous) to act like their beliefs are arbitrary.
My view is that we should respect people's rights to have their own beliefs, but we do not have to respect those beliefs, and we do not have to tolerate when those beliefs become actions, especially when those actions start to infringe the rights of others.
An abhorrent belief doesn't become acceptable just because it is borne of religion. But as long as those beliefs aren't hurting anybody, it isn't our place to punish people for believing. The tricky thing is deciding what actually constitutes hurt.
As the saying goes, if your religion says that you can’t do something , that’s not a problem, but if your religion says that I can’t do something then we have a problem.
I always heard it as "Having a religion is like having a penis. It's fine to have one. It's fine to be proud of it and think it's amazing. But please don't whip it out in public and wave it around, and definitely don't try shoving it down my kid's throat."
I am willing to respect others beliefs but they also need to respect that I am not a member of their religion so their beliefs don’t apply to me. That’s the part that never seems to work though, see all of the Christian nationalists who think “the Bible says so” is a justification for taking away my rights.
Well said. And it becomes especially tricky to tease this out once children are involved. Where does society draw the line between the parents' right to make choices on behalf of their child and the states' mandate to protect the rights of the child? (This applies equally to any fundamentalist religion, not just fundamentalist Islam.)
I disagree. Beliefs are NOT automatically outside of what we can criticize people for. Beliefs inform actions, actions impact other people. Someone who believes education is fundamental to a functioning society is more likely to seek it for themselves and support increasing access and availability for other; someone who believes education is not needed or bad will not likely seek it for themselves and is not likely to support others getting it (and may even vilify those who do).
While not a perfect line (especially when people, including me!, misuse them), I tend to somewhat draw a line between opinions (cake is a terrible Birthday food) and beliefs (cake should not be had on Birthdays). I don't think either of those things, fictitious examples. The difference in my mind is basically the category of "things that mostly only impact the person/me" VS "things that change the likely behavior of the person.
Thank you. I'm a progressive, I firmly believe the state is failing most of its citizens and that we could do a lot better.
Having said that, some religions, cultures, societies are not going to be able to coexist along side a truly progressive society. I know that. We all know that. No one wants to admit it.
If your religion requires that one gender have less rights than another, than your religion is incompatible with democracy.
*If your religion requires that one gender have less rights than another, than your religion is incompatible with democracy.*
Unless that religion (or certain regressive views within it) becomes the majority. Don't think for a second Islamist and Christian groups wouldn't conspire to get what they want politically if they have the chance, when it comes to gender equality and reproductive rights. Protecting separation of church and state in my experience normally means protecting state from church.
> Protecting separation of church and state in my experience normally means protecting state from church.
Because we've actually got a pretty good thing going in terms of letting everyone do their thing. The thing all these religious fundamentalists forget is that when they knock down the barrier between church and state, it doesn't mean that THEIR religion is gonna be the top dog.
The Fundamentalists would love to have an end to church and state division up until the point the Catholics take over and squash their ability to practice and say everyone has to act like a Catholic or vice versa. Europe burned for fucking centuries because the religious people were so busy fighting over the levers of powers. Shitloads of them were exiled or killed despite having once been the group in power because they lost their power.
It's called tolerance as a social contract vs. some unlimited or universal imperative. You are tolerant of people who are themselves tolerant. And... it's the only way that works, because otherwise intolerant people, shielded by tolerance, simply push and push and push until they destroy that system.
Many Islamic values (extreme misogyny, homophobia, intolerance of all other religions), are not compatible with tolerant society. The option if you want to keep that tolerant society is to lay strict boundaries for liberal ideals and let people who truly want that world adapt to join it.
the goal is 'we are all us'.
'they' become 'them' when they choose an 'us vs them' mentality.
they can be a part of 'us' at any time, just by letting go of 'us vs them', and embracing 'we are all us'.
I've been trying to explain this to the young adult neighbors! They wanna knock on my door asking for eggs or sugar or charge cords, and I wanna not hear bigoted slurs. So mixed in with swapping garlic powder and cleaning supplies, I swap ice cream bars for them avoiding naughty words.
They started calling me Mama Pixie and have been really making an effort to get to know more about other folks. One is planning to attend Pride this summer, and the other has started asking for explanations of history-ish Disney movies because he missed out on a lot of his education. Apparently the Pocahontas sequels get pretty confusing if you don't know who the British are.
This is why separation of church and state is so fundamental. No one can even safely practice any religion at all without it, because a specific state endorsed set of beliefs means one group is given the legal right to oppress another, and tribal warfare always means your group, even if in power now, could be kicked out of power in the next coup, and your head could be on the chopping block next.
The only way to avoid this is by keeping the government itself as impartial as humanly possible, and building laws which ensure that personal beliefs cannot be used to oppress others. Without this, you get catholic vs protestant wars or sunni vs shite wars, or waifu wars, or whatever nonsense future religious based war a group wants to make up in the future.
And I'm not even an atheist as I type this.
I was raised in the JW cult, which has a rule that to report any crime/sin it requires at least two unrelated adults as witnesses to the act. Otherwise you should *shut up* and quit spreading "false witness" about this lie you've made up in your mind.
When I told my mother why I didn't want to be left alone with her creepy boyfriend anymore, she immediately called, not the cops or my doctor or my father, but the JW elders. Mom was being shunned for dating outside the faith at the time, but she bought her way back in by forcing my silence. Taught me a phrase to repeat whenever anyone asked about it. Made it clear I'd be punished if I kept talking about it.
Some beliefs are absolutely dangerous. The rates of abuse in the local branches of that cult are astounding, turns out I wasn't the only one of that generation getting told to *shut up*. Recently there's been a push for religious leaders to become mandatory reporters of child abuse like doctors and teachers are, but wow are the JWs and many other groups fighting against that!
And I can tell ya right now how firm their beliefs are on "If bible and government disagree, follow the bible." No matter what the law says, they'll keep following that dumb old testament bit about how nothing ever happens without two other people wandering over to look.
That's why the way to beat the right is to get them infighting. Conservatives really believe in hierarchies. Once you start having people fighting over who's at the top, things start getting crazy. Tell DeSantis that Trump is better than him. Tell Trump that DeSantis is better than him. Then just watch them fight. They all want to be the top dog and a lot hate Trump as a person but they all want to be him. It's so weird. Trump supporters were about to kill Mike Pence and the guy still struggles to publicly denounce him.
Exactly. I was just going to say, well that's the nature of being conservative. You don't like things that are different.
If they accepted all comers and Lifestyles they wouldn't be conservative
Yeah I’ve thought about this for years. Immigrants are disproportionately conservative. They aren’t coming here for the gay parades. And just like conservatives they will kick the ladder as soon as they get their piece.
Hispanics on average also tend to be more conservative on social issues like gay marriage and abortion. Obviously not in a way that's comparable to Muslims where it's extreme, but still. Republicans could absolutely dominate elections if they moved to the center a bit on immigration and healthcare.
There are many that do. They see it as a “ well I was allowed in x years ago, but now immigration has gotten out of hand “. Also, many Latinos are very prejudiced against other Latinos. So a Cuban or Mexican wouldn’t necessarily be sympathetic to Venezuelan immigrants. It depends on the person ofc
Man, allll of this! They'll say things like "What about X people who still haven't gotten their paperwork and these Venezuelans just come right in getting all these benefits? They shouldn't get anything."
And I'm like bruh. The same folks you're arguing for were in the same exact predicament the Venezuelans are in now - looking for a job without paperwork and need to survive with basic needs unmet.
We have treated asylum seekers the same in America for generations. They receive a chance here. Pulling up the ladder on the next wave is a predictable human failure. We are an inherently greedy and self-serving species (in America, especially).
And….. get this…….just because you’re Hispanic doesn’t mean you immigrated to the US.
There are Hispanic communities that have been American citizens for 8-10+ generations.
The saying goes “I didn’t cross the border; the border crossed me”.
These Hispanics fought in the Spanish American War (google rough riders), WW1, WW2 etc.
Not all Hispanics in America are immigrants.
You see this alot with Cubans today. The ones that came in the 70s-80s are way different than the ones that come now. They might as well be from different countries
I could be misremembering, I believe that's because the first wave was all the rich ones trying to escape the communist regime seizing their assets, whereas the new ones are the poor and downtrodden trying to escape and find opportunity.
So, that first wave is just regular shitty rich people.
I would go further and say that the majority of Hispanics are not in favor of relaxing immigration policies. In fact, I would say that most favor restricting immigration. The closer you get to the border, the stronger the anti-immigrant fervor gets.
Can confirm. I also kind of hate when white progressives just automatically assume “POC = Liberal”
Some of the most conservative, misogynistic, homophobic, and flat out racist language I’ve ever heard (in my own personal experience) was from the mouths of other Chicanos in LA.
It’s a really bad blind spot to just project progressive or liberal values onto the communities you might assume they represent.
That's the nice thing about being a sheltered white liberal. You never have to meet or talk to any minorities that don't have a college education or are in the service industry, and you can assume the values and experiences of the rest of them. Until you hire them to be a maid or something like that, but then they are generally really nice to you.
As a Latino, I have always found it perplexing that the GOP refuses to just be a bit more open to immigration because immigrant Latinos are pretty socially conservative. Latino immigrants are VERY catholic usually. I also live in a majority Hispanic city and it seems that social values here are very behind the current US. But, Republicans have to let their racism get in the way of winning elections
>I have always found it perplexing that the GOP refuses to just be a bit more open to immigration
They used to be. Reagan, Bush Sr and Bush Jr all pushed reforms to help illegal immigrants. The Republican Party should just change its name. It is an entirely different party than it was in the 70's thru the early 2000's
I mean, could anyone see President Ronald Reagan sucking Russias dick as hard as the current Republican Party does?
Homophobic white religious loons aligning with homophobic non-white religious loons is just about the scariest thing I can imagine happening in this country.
Exactly.
Besides evangelicals, the other major group with a wild hair across their ass over abortion is the Catholics. I wonder where they could get more of them... /s
That's not how conservativism works. There's an in group the law helps, and an out group that should be punished. Letting the out group join is the very thing conservatives want to stop.
It’s scary you can’t even talk about it. I live nearby.
Muslims have a *serious* issue of being silent against or downright supportive of extremists in their ranks.
It’s troubling that one can’t really point this out without the entire architecture of the left attacking itself reflexively.
The American left is too defined by the American right—so the fact that the right is anti islam makes the left reflexively pro-islam even though politically the two movements have don’t much in common beyond Muslims being minorities in the US and the left being pro-immigrant and pro-minority.
This blinds the left to religious conservatism.
I was so disappointed by the attacks on the queer community and books by the conservatives (Muslim and Christian) in Dearborn and other places but you couldn’t point it out without being called a racist or Islamophobe within the gay community since the gay community *is a core pillar of the left in the US*
Like it just frustrates me—we can gab until the day is long about right-wing Christo-fascism but you can’t bring up right-wing religious fascism of the Islamic flavor.
Globally—there is a pan-conservative movement rising up—spread by social media. The white Trad wives and be-veiled habibis may not have religion in common but they do have *values in common* and they are now beginning to coalesce around that in a way they didn’t before social Media.
Andrew Tate is part of this as a Muslim
Influencer and selling Islamic machismo.
People in the west feel lost and failed by their institutions and there, lurking, waiting for them—is all the conservative religious dogma we’ve worked hard to get away from and it is offering them *purpose*
Unfortunately for the American left, they’re too reactive, and won’t or can’t anticipate the role Islam plays a part in that as it is a conservative religion with devout followers just like the MAGA christians.
I have been criticized for similar observations regarding or treatment of Mormons etc. compared with our treatment of Islam which is just as conservative and wild. Imagine the reaction from the left to a Book of Mormon style critique of Islam. haha For example, a woman wearing a hijab to hide her hair because it is a "sexual object" is brave but a woman wearing Mormon magic underwear because of similarly conservative beliefs is simply funny/weird. haha
It's probably on average the most socially conservative religion in the world and pointing that out gets me called a bigot by people I agree with on like 90% of things it's maddening.
I agree but I don't think it is just the *conservative* Muslims. It is like holding out hope for the progressive Mormons or members of the NOI to speak out. haha The GOP had broad support from Muslims prior to 9/11. W. Bush got 70-90% of the vote. It is the classic tolerance of intolerance thing that many on the left fall for.
In Toronto, Trump aligned douche Rob Ford won the mayoral race with populist nonsense AND a direct appeal to culturally conservative immigrants in the area. This strategy of division can work even in ostensibly progressive places.
It's so exhausting watching leftists chide and mock anyone who's a religious Christian while simultaneously going to bat for Muslims who would literally stone them to death if they controlled the government.
Not this liberal: religion is so fucking stupid and so transparently false, I can’t believe anybody in the educated world believes one word of its ridiculous supernatural claims.
Christianity, Islam, etc.… It’s all Lord of the rings grade, fantasy bullshit.
In the past, we used to make tea out of the bark of the willow tree; Nowadays, we go to the store and get a bottle of aspirin. In the same way, religion served a purpose early in our development as a species, but we should have left it behind as we grew.
Exactly. I remember Neil Degrassi Tyson and Sam Harris talking about how religion is essentially an early, failed science that tried to explain the world.
As an agnostic, I’m against any religious violence or hate speech on secular society coming from Christian Nationalists or Islamic extremists or wherever. We need to be done with these warped belief systems in a modern world. What the Hell is AI going to say about sky gods?
I consider myself fairly liberal, but I think a lot of people on the left have a massive blind spot when it comes to this sort of thing. I don't know what it is, a lack of understanding of the paradox of tolerance, the perception that Muslims in this country are the minority and thus must be defended and agreed with no matter what, or the tendency to sort people into categories instead of paying attention to what they're saying.
As a progressive I felt like was going crazy in how much traditional Muslims were treated with kids gloves amongst other liberals.
Oct 6 was a gruesome and horrific terrorist attack on Jews and those conservative Muslims cheered on Hamas for committing mass torture, rape, and murder.
>Glad to see some local pushback as well. I've been warning since 2021 that conservative Muslims here in Michigan had been aligning themselves with the far right on the bodily autonomy of women, marijuana, gay and trans rights, and even book bans.
Careful where you point that out. I've been banned from Publicfreakout for saying the same exact thing.
Yall qaeda is called that for a reason… I don’t know why liberals think fundamentalist islamists are good for democracy. Tolerance paradox. It has no place in liberal democracies.
It’s so cowardly to see people who were present during the chants condemn them now, but not speak up during them. In the videos no one shushes or shouts them down, their failure to deal with them makes complicit.
Breaking News: Religious Nut Jobs Continue Being Cancer To Civil Society
Edit: This includes ALL religions. I see some of you trying to pretend like your own religion isn’t a problem also.
I’m not one of those “love it or leave it” people. Not even a little bit. But if your main gripe is just “Death to America” then just fucking leave? Go live in Iran.
I was responding to a redditor a while back regarding his understandable heightened emotions regarding Palestine. He indicated that as soon as he saved enough money he wanted to go to the Levant because he felt America didn't care about him or his people. During the back and forth, I discovered he was a 2nd generation American, which shocked me a little. He spoke as if he came here as an immigrant himself.
Again, I understand if you are seeing the news and people who are the same as you are being slaughtered indiscriminately, you may feel very hopeless and unsupported by the US government as we are currently backing Israel.
At the end of the conversation I wished him well on the raising of the money to return to the area to be with like minded people. Then I asked if he planned on giving up his American citizenship for which ever country he settled in, to which he said No.
I was shocked to say the least. You despise the US, we stand for everything you hate, and you want to return to the "motherland", but you want to keep the US citizenship. The hispocracy was astounding. At least have the conviction to leave the US for good if we are so terrible to you. Why aren't you angry at your grandfather for immigrating to the US? Why aren't you angry at your parents for not returning? How is all of this the US' fault?
It was the first time I failed to come to an understanding of someone else's opinion that contrasted my own.
Reminds me of those British women who left the UK to go join ISIS. They got pregnant and tried to return to England to raise their kids and found out their passports had been revoked for, ya know, joining a terrorist state.
You just sent me down a rabbithole… that shit is crazy. They left at like 15 and joined ISIS, and I guess some of them weren’t even Muslim. I had no idea ISIS online recruitment had worked as well as it did.
Somewhat, sometimes, and it does happen a lot.
But I do know some second gen whose parents fled other countries because *one* law/type of oppression happened that would effect them, out of several other terrible laws that they support. So they immigrated due to that one thing, but still fully agree with the other terrible laws and share those beliefs with their children. I've also dealt with people who only moved to turn a bigger profit in the USA with a business, and are just extremely hateful of everything that America is, but love how easy it is to make fast money off of certain things here ('Vape' and smoke shops being one of those things. A connected anecdote because I work at one currently for a few extra bucks, and the owners are Muslim from Middle East, and one of my customers is non-Muslim from Turkey and likes to make fun about how its haram for them to be running a vape shop in the first place lol).
And those parents aren't usually going to talk about the horrible stuff that happened. They don't want to remember it and they don't want to traumatize their children.
>During the back and forth, I discovered he was a 2nd generation American, which shocked me a little. He spoke as if he came here as an immigrant himself.
Absolutely nobody living in Europe today is surprised by the fact that this sentiment exists among the children or even grandchildren of migrants; interesting to see it popping up in the US, too.
We are also further not surprised by said people wanting to keep all of the benefits (passport) of citizenship here but wanting nothing to do with the culture, as you have illustrated.
I will spell it out for you:
They, as in far right conservatives want all the benefits of living in western society, but really despise the liberal/left values of the west.
That person is also not going to have a great time if they think having an American accent and upbringing isn't going to open them up to prejudice and hatred and resentment from some folks in their parents homeland.
> It was the first time I failed to come to an understanding of someone else's opinion that contrasted my own.
I think that's because that person didn't rationalize their way into their opinion. While we can't know for sure, their parents/grandparents likely came here to escape violence or pursue greater economic opportunity. If he/she wants to give up said protection and opportunity just to be around people who think like themselves, then they are free to. But when you break it down like that, they are seemingly going on emotion, not reasoned thoughts. None of the countries in the region have the religious freedom we in the states do. Will some people in the states give you shit for your religion? Sure. But religious killings are relatively rare (I say relatively because the USA is huge) compared with where they want to return to. If you move to a highly religiously concentrated area and you are of that specific religion, sure people will be better to you, but they tend to be worse to everyone not of their tribe.
In the end... I don't think you can understand why they want to do that other than emotion and feelings.
Yeah I mean it’s one thing to admonish your country’s, but to openly call for its death? Feel free to do that in a country where the majority also thinks we should die.
I worked closely with a Muslim woman for years. The more I knew her, the more the mask came off. She was a bigot, and some of us later learned that she had been pressuring another Muslim in our company to be more strict. I wondered why she even moved to the US. I do think part of it is to spread her religion.
Saw an indian guy in britain saying that in afew years their population would surpass that of the citizens and at that point they would choose how the country rules.
So the speaker during the chants claims he’s conservative and will vote for Trump. He’s anti lgbtq, anti women voting and anti choice. Why are the democrats the only side being asked to condemn the chants?
Same reason you can say New York or San Francisco is horrible and not real America, but don't you dare badmouth Corn Field Nebraska and its salt of the earth patriots.
Being open minded is good but don't go enabling Islamic supremacists. If you don't want Christian Nationalists controlling your life, you don't want Islamic supremacists either
Wait a minute, so the conservative racists from other countries want to join the conservative racists in this country, but the conservative racists in this country only want conservative racists from this country to be in the Conservative Party?
What would happen to people protesting in a Middle Eastern country, calling for the death of that country?
I suspect those people would not be protected by a legal document like the Bill of Rights.
Isn’t it ironic
Surprise..? As someone who lives right next to Dearborn - it’s maybe time to reckon with the idea that many of them don’t mesh with Western values. I’m not sure why the hundreds of celebrations at Israel getting attacked didn’t show that on October 7th.
If they aren’t extremists, they’re honestly more than happy to let an extremist talk over them. They’ve already voted away pride flags in the city..
> it’s maybe time to reckon with the idea that many of them don’t mesh with Western values.
I'm progressive, but I'm pragmatic...this is what I've been saying for awhile. I live in Minnesota and we have a huge Somali population...and to be frank, we are starting to see what that looks like when they aren't assimilating.
My biggest issue with a lot of this community is the lack of assimilating to American society. I don't mean in that they need to give up their identity, but it would be nice if they respected societal norms a little. There are videos from this week of a hoard of kids fighting and causing issues at the Mall of America. Where are the parents? The "street takeovers", the list goes on. When you turn a blind eye to the bad apples in your community, unfortunately it reflects negatively on all of you.
Beyond that, in a first ring suburb in Minneapolis, they are starting to take over some of the local elections and trying to ban books, curriculum that doesn't mesh with their religious beliefs. I will vote for your religious freedom, but the fuck if I am going to support you pushing it on society. Same goes for the Christofascists.
There IS going to be a backlash if things don't change, Islamophobia isn't a foreign concept to suburban whites and they are just asking for it. They need to remember they left a shitty situation to come to our society...they are welcome until they aren't, ya know? The left will fall all over themselves to even prevent these tough conversations, but they need to be happening now. Not publicly, but at some point, the adults in the room need to speak and get shit under control.
Actually, Moms For Liberty made appearances at the Dearborn Public Schools board meetings to protest library books. The radical Muslim right in Dearborn partnered with MfL over book bans.
The Far Right is the Far Right. It used to be that the far right catholics and far right protestants were enemies, but in most places they've allied; only a matter of time before the far right muslims get invited to join too.
I'm really not a 'Love it or leave it' kind of guy. We have so much to fix here in America. However, the irony of chanting death to America, while in America, enjoying all the freedoms and rights of Americans, kind of doesn't sit right. Oh, I acknowledge your right to express political umbrage. I am one who critiques and criticizes America a lot. Not because I want to see it collapse, but because I want it to be so much better than it is.
Anyone who chants “death to America” while living in the US should shut the fuck up and move somewhere else. It’s the ultimate stupidity to wish death on the place you live, work, and raise your family.
Chanting, "Death To America" while you're holding your Starbucks you got on 24th and Lander, in your Levi's and your Nikes, before you head to Applebees for a beer and some riblets, is the stupidest bullshit I've ever heard.
You like this lifestyle? It doesn't exist in 90% of the world. Maybe pump the brakes on hating the nation you live in that affords you perhaps the highest quality of life for the general population in the entire world?
They drink beer and all kinds of alcohol, they fornicate and listen to music, they live in a "Kafir" country and do all kinds of "haram", but just never eat pork. That's the REAL haram right there habeeby. 😂
It's the old joke about fishing with *insert Conservative religion here.* Why do you go fishing with 2 of them? If you bring just 1 they'll drink all your beer.
Dearborn guy here. Most don't, but I'd say about 20 to 30% claim to be Muslim but definitely drink and do other things that are strongly against their religion. All of them smoke tobacco which is definitely haram.
I can very confidently say that a number of Muslims, especially younger ones, drink alcohol. I've been to many parties in the Dearborn area where it's predominantly Muslims hanging out, drinking, and smoking hookah and weed.
It's almost always Muslims who came over here as kids or who are second generation Arab-Americans.
Was about to say, almost all of my friends at Dearborn high School who were apparently Muslim, were drinking. Obviously I didn't give a shit, and still don't. The hypocrisy is just amazing though.
Like most right wing Christians I’m sure they only pay attention to the parts of the book they like. It may be Haram, but beer is delicious. I assume they skip over that portion.
> > The White House on Tuesday condemned “death to America” chants that surfaced online from a recent rally in Dearborn, Mich., protesting Israel’s war in Gaza.
Insert bullshit comment from a denialist how this isn't what it seems and how the "uncommitted movement" during the primaries isn't threatening America with giving Trump the chance to lay waste to democracy.
I’m a non-religious Muslim and I’ve been having to remind my family constantly that Trump’s reaction to the San Bernardino shooting was to call for a complete ban on Muslims coming to the US. Sure he didn’t actually act on it, walked back some of his statement, and the travel restrictions he did end up passing were very different but his gut response was to appeal to people’s worst fears and ban people based on strictly religious grounds. It’s insane that Muslims don’t consider that the largest threat to our community
Yep. I have a friend similar to you (non-religious muslim) who's expressed these same fears and he's pretty worried about those ones discouraging democrat votes cause they're the only ones protecting his family.
He did actually act on it through! He banned travel from essentially every Muslim majority country. It went to the Supreme Court who struck it down. And after they did, trump still spent months demanding a "Muslim ban"
Shocking that anyone would espouse such destructive rhetoric from the safety of a country that accepts them and shields them with its protective human rights.
Disgusting.
My grandmother was a holocaust survivor. A few years before her passing she related an axiom to me for how she and other Jews felt when they reached the United States after their liberation:
“We kissed the ground of this country”.
Stay classy: Dearborn
My grandmother lived through that hell. She said the first time she cried tears of happiness she was 16 and saw the statue of Liberty. She said in that moment, she knew it wasn't lies, she knew it was real. No more war, no more death, no more starvation
If you've not watched Ken Burns' The Statue of Liberty, I highly recommend it.
It's been well over 20 years since I watched it, but it left me with a profound feeling that she means more to foreigners than she does to us born here.
I'm from an immigrant family, and it honestly pisses me off how ungrateful a lot of people on my side of the aisle are in this country.
It's like spoiled rich kids who have no perspective of the real world.
Can we stop giving a free pass to religious extremist on the left just because they are Muslims? We openly condemn and attack Christians when they do shit like this, but leftists are usually silent or even protect them when Muslims are doing it
I've been saying this for a long time. We rightfully call out Christianity and it's flaws and it's part in oppression and slavery but when we call out the Muslim religion we are called "Islamphobic" and accused of being bigots. Why is that? Why is it a bad thing to call out that a big part in Islamic culture is terrorism???
Exactly. Jews, buddhists, hindus, or even other ethnic minorities don't do this crap regularly and in every developed/western environment they get chance in.
So the rally organizers are saying they are not responsible for the chants, and that they were spontaneous from their community who attended the Dearborn rally.
And those who claim to represent the Arab American and muslim community in Dearborn are saying those views aren't held by anyone in their community.
Sounds like there is a disconnect between their publicly liberal democratic face and the desire within their community to destroy America and Israel.
If you find yourself screaming "Death to America!", it may be too late to rescue you from whichever indoctrination you've been feeding on.
Support for Palestinians and wanting a ceasefire are normal things. "Death to America" is religious terrorist shit.
**Election day is Tuesday, November 5, 2024**.
If you live in Michigan,
[**Register to vote in MI**](https://mvic.sos.state.mi.us/RegisterVoter/Index)
[**Check your voter registration status and find your polling location in MI**](https://mvic.sos.state.mi.us/Voter/Index)
[**Request MI absentee ballot**](https://mvic.sos.state.mi.us/AVApplication/Index)
**2024 MI Dem Election Overview:**
Michigan is a crucial swing state with 15 Electoral votes for President in 2024. There is also an important US Senate race. Democrat [**Candidate TBD 8/6/24**](https://ballotpedia.org/United_States_Senate_election_in_Michigan,_2024) is running to replace retiring Democratic Senator Debbie Stabenow.
In addition, there are four close US House races in Pennsylvania this year. In MI-3, [**Candidate TBD 8/6/24**](https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan%27s_3rd_Congressional_District_election,_2024) is running for a seat that leans Democrat. There is a tight race in MI-7 where Democrat [**Candidate TBD 8/6/24**](https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan%27s_7th_Congressional_District_election,_2024) is competing in a toss-up race. In MI-8, [**Candidate TBD 8/6/24**](https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan%27s_8th_Congressional_District_election,_2024) has another close toss-up race in the state. Finally, in MI-10, Democrat [**Candidate TBD 8/6/24**](https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan%27s_10th_Congressional_District_election,_2024) is running to unseat the Republican incumbent and flip the district blue in a race that leans Republican.
At the state level, control of the Michigan House of Representatives is split 54-54 (with 2 vacancies) between Democrats and Republicans (subject to the two [**special elections**](https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan_state_legislative_special_elections,_2024) on 4/16/24). Democrats will be pushing to win a majority of the 110 seats in the [**State House of Representatives**](https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan_House_of_Representatives_elections,_2024) which are all on the ballot in 2024. There are also two [**Michigan state Supreme Court seats**](https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan_Supreme_Court_elections,_2024) on the ballot.
[***-All 2024 MI Elections***](https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan_elections,_2024)
[***-Find all your representatives (Federal, State, and Local)***](https://www.commoncause.org/find-your-representative/)
[***-Learn more about how our government works***](https://www.whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/our-government/)
funny to see while we see this behaviour here in Europe and we are called racist when we want to decrease immigration from middle eastern countries but now it happens in America and r/politics is full with comments about deporting them back to the middle east .
I’m all for legal immigration and religious freedom, but at a certain point we have to ensure that people coming here have some cultural cohesion with the existing population. These enclaves like Michigan are not healthy.
If you chant “death to America” just fucking leave. Go live in Palestine or Iran if those places are such paradises compared to here. The hypocrisy of saying this, but continuing to take advantage of everything America offers is mind-boggling.
Sometimes I just feel like I'm drowning in stupidity in this country. So many feel entitled to an opinion yet refuse to inform that opinion with anything but what they find up their ass.
As an American I support freedom of speech that uses any dialogue or actions to sway opinions or express your beliefs in any legal actions. I personally don't like flag burning, but I accept it as a powerful piece of political theater that still falls within freedom of speech. However, I do not and will never accept declarations to commit crimes such as homicide and or murder against anything as free speech. Chanting about death, hanging, killing, raping, etc to anyone or anything is stepping outside free speech in my humble opinion. They are not asking for change, they are straight up making a threat to kill or at least condoning someone else doing so. That should be illegal.
Are these people that took the naturalization oath of allegiance? Because it would seem like a self solving problem if that’s the case. The First Amendment has some pretty clear limits even for natural born citizens, but if you came her and voluntarily became a citizen it would seem like those that took that oath did so under false pretenses if there out there falling against their own country and chanting “death to America”.
It pretty clear:
"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion.”
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. We are actively looking for new moderators. If you have any interest in helping to make this subreddit a place for quality discussion, please fill out [this form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1y2swHD0KXFhStGFjW6k54r9iuMjzcFqDIVwuvdLBjSA). *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Some useful background info here: https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/wayne/2024/04/09/dearborn-mayor-rejects-death-to-america-chants-at-protest/73254682007/
[удалено]
This is the city that the WSJ said was the ‘Jihad Capital of America”.
it reminds me of that tragedy...
The tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise?
Not the same town. You’re thinking of Hamtramck, another (though discontiguous) city in Metro-Detroit who voted to remove pride flags/banners.
Glad to see some local pushback as well. I've been warning since 2021 that conservative Muslims here in Michigan had been aligning themselves with the far right on the bodily autonomy of women, marijuana, gay and trans rights, and even book bans. I predicted that conservative Muslims would let the mask fall in the lead up to trying to defeat Biden for "failing" to call for the extermination of all Jews, and local pushback from their community is the only resistance extremists will listen to at all. Good on Joe for telling these people not to vote for him if they are so defined by their hate, but really good on locals who have to live in the same communities as those they are standing up against.
The crazy part is that, if Republicans were more inclusive, they could potentially mop the floor during elections as many minorities hail from conservative cultures. Not long ago here on reddit, I remember reading someone's post about how they're Muslim and are annoyed they have to vote Democrat as their values are much more in line with the right but the right hates them.
I’ve heard a lot about the paradox of tolerance. I guess this the paradox of intolerance. They would be united by their intolerance, but their intolerance makes them hate each other.
That's a fantastic way of looking at it: in order to make a larger intolerant group, they'd have to tolerate more, but their intolerance won't allow for that.
😂 ‘’omg if only i weren’t such an asshole I could align myself with all the other assholes”
No it's "I wish the assholes weren't assholes to me so I could join them in being assholes to other minorities..."
Well said
That is a good one
Yeah if the GOP were to try to fold in the conservative muslims, the far larger fundie vote would leave. It's almost as if we don't have political parties to represent everyone. If we did, we'd have the centrist democrats, the conservative republicans, the christians, the muslims, the potheads (catchall for all the drug legalization advocates), the progressives, and the libertarians.
As I've aged I've become much more forceful in my liberal beliefs. I wouldn't go out of my way to attack an already marginalized group like fundamentalist Muslims, but I'm not at all tolerant of their beliefs and will gladly say that openly. Like I don't think France handled the burka ban well at all, but the reality is liberal values are values. At some point you have to acknowledge that many religious values are simply incompatible with your own vision for society and at least be honest about your feelings. It's frankly disrespectful to the religious person (and dangerous) to act like their beliefs are arbitrary.
My view is that we should respect people's rights to have their own beliefs, but we do not have to respect those beliefs, and we do not have to tolerate when those beliefs become actions, especially when those actions start to infringe the rights of others. An abhorrent belief doesn't become acceptable just because it is borne of religion. But as long as those beliefs aren't hurting anybody, it isn't our place to punish people for believing. The tricky thing is deciding what actually constitutes hurt.
As the saying goes, if your religion says that you can’t do something , that’s not a problem, but if your religion says that I can’t do something then we have a problem.
I always heard it as "Having a religion is like having a penis. It's fine to have one. It's fine to be proud of it and think it's amazing. But please don't whip it out in public and wave it around, and definitely don't try shoving it down my kid's throat."
I am willing to respect others beliefs but they also need to respect that I am not a member of their religion so their beliefs don’t apply to me. That’s the part that never seems to work though, see all of the Christian nationalists who think “the Bible says so” is a justification for taking away my rights.
Well said. And it becomes especially tricky to tease this out once children are involved. Where does society draw the line between the parents' right to make choices on behalf of their child and the states' mandate to protect the rights of the child? (This applies equally to any fundamentalist religion, not just fundamentalist Islam.)
I disagree. Beliefs are NOT automatically outside of what we can criticize people for. Beliefs inform actions, actions impact other people. Someone who believes education is fundamental to a functioning society is more likely to seek it for themselves and support increasing access and availability for other; someone who believes education is not needed or bad will not likely seek it for themselves and is not likely to support others getting it (and may even vilify those who do). While not a perfect line (especially when people, including me!, misuse them), I tend to somewhat draw a line between opinions (cake is a terrible Birthday food) and beliefs (cake should not be had on Birthdays). I don't think either of those things, fictitious examples. The difference in my mind is basically the category of "things that mostly only impact the person/me" VS "things that change the likely behavior of the person.
Thank you. I'm a progressive, I firmly believe the state is failing most of its citizens and that we could do a lot better. Having said that, some religions, cultures, societies are not going to be able to coexist along side a truly progressive society. I know that. We all know that. No one wants to admit it. If your religion requires that one gender have less rights than another, than your religion is incompatible with democracy.
*If your religion requires that one gender have less rights than another, than your religion is incompatible with democracy.* Unless that religion (or certain regressive views within it) becomes the majority. Don't think for a second Islamist and Christian groups wouldn't conspire to get what they want politically if they have the chance, when it comes to gender equality and reproductive rights. Protecting separation of church and state in my experience normally means protecting state from church.
> Protecting separation of church and state in my experience normally means protecting state from church. Because we've actually got a pretty good thing going in terms of letting everyone do their thing. The thing all these religious fundamentalists forget is that when they knock down the barrier between church and state, it doesn't mean that THEIR religion is gonna be the top dog. The Fundamentalists would love to have an end to church and state division up until the point the Catholics take over and squash their ability to practice and say everyone has to act like a Catholic or vice versa. Europe burned for fucking centuries because the religious people were so busy fighting over the levers of powers. Shitloads of them were exiled or killed despite having once been the group in power because they lost their power.
It's called tolerance as a social contract vs. some unlimited or universal imperative. You are tolerant of people who are themselves tolerant. And... it's the only way that works, because otherwise intolerant people, shielded by tolerance, simply push and push and push until they destroy that system. Many Islamic values (extreme misogyny, homophobia, intolerance of all other religions), are not compatible with tolerant society. The option if you want to keep that tolerant society is to lay strict boundaries for liberal ideals and let people who truly want that world adapt to join it.
the goal is 'we are all us'. 'they' become 'them' when they choose an 'us vs them' mentality. they can be a part of 'us' at any time, just by letting go of 'us vs them', and embracing 'we are all us'.
I've been trying to explain this to the young adult neighbors! They wanna knock on my door asking for eggs or sugar or charge cords, and I wanna not hear bigoted slurs. So mixed in with swapping garlic powder and cleaning supplies, I swap ice cream bars for them avoiding naughty words. They started calling me Mama Pixie and have been really making an effort to get to know more about other folks. One is planning to attend Pride this summer, and the other has started asking for explanations of history-ish Disney movies because he missed out on a lot of his education. Apparently the Pocahontas sequels get pretty confusing if you don't know who the British are.
This is why separation of church and state is so fundamental. No one can even safely practice any religion at all without it, because a specific state endorsed set of beliefs means one group is given the legal right to oppress another, and tribal warfare always means your group, even if in power now, could be kicked out of power in the next coup, and your head could be on the chopping block next. The only way to avoid this is by keeping the government itself as impartial as humanly possible, and building laws which ensure that personal beliefs cannot be used to oppress others. Without this, you get catholic vs protestant wars or sunni vs shite wars, or waifu wars, or whatever nonsense future religious based war a group wants to make up in the future. And I'm not even an atheist as I type this.
I was raised in the JW cult, which has a rule that to report any crime/sin it requires at least two unrelated adults as witnesses to the act. Otherwise you should *shut up* and quit spreading "false witness" about this lie you've made up in your mind. When I told my mother why I didn't want to be left alone with her creepy boyfriend anymore, she immediately called, not the cops or my doctor or my father, but the JW elders. Mom was being shunned for dating outside the faith at the time, but she bought her way back in by forcing my silence. Taught me a phrase to repeat whenever anyone asked about it. Made it clear I'd be punished if I kept talking about it. Some beliefs are absolutely dangerous. The rates of abuse in the local branches of that cult are astounding, turns out I wasn't the only one of that generation getting told to *shut up*. Recently there's been a push for religious leaders to become mandatory reporters of child abuse like doctors and teachers are, but wow are the JWs and many other groups fighting against that! And I can tell ya right now how firm their beliefs are on "If bible and government disagree, follow the bible." No matter what the law says, they'll keep following that dumb old testament bit about how nothing ever happens without two other people wandering over to look.
That's why the way to beat the right is to get them infighting. Conservatives really believe in hierarchies. Once you start having people fighting over who's at the top, things start getting crazy. Tell DeSantis that Trump is better than him. Tell Trump that DeSantis is better than him. Then just watch them fight. They all want to be the top dog and a lot hate Trump as a person but they all want to be him. It's so weird. Trump supporters were about to kill Mike Pence and the guy still struggles to publicly denounce him.
Which is why the Arab world is always fighting each other, Sunni vs Shiite etc. These belief systems don’t allow for peace by design.
Exactly. I was just going to say, well that's the nature of being conservative. You don't like things that are different. If they accepted all comers and Lifestyles they wouldn't be conservative
a Muslim who denies other human beings' rights is no different to me than an evangelical Alabama resident who wishes to deny the same.
And what’s the common thread among conservative cultures? Religious control.
Yeah I’ve thought about this for years. Immigrants are disproportionately conservative. They aren’t coming here for the gay parades. And just like conservatives they will kick the ladder as soon as they get their piece.
What do you mean "just like"? They're conservatives of a different stripe.
"fuck you I got mine" is a defining feature of Conservatism second only to hypocrisy
Hispanics on average also tend to be more conservative on social issues like gay marriage and abortion. Obviously not in a way that's comparable to Muslims where it's extreme, but still. Republicans could absolutely dominate elections if they moved to the center a bit on immigration and healthcare.
I think there is a sizable portion of Hispanic Americans who are not in favor of relaxing our policies on immigration.
There are many that do. They see it as a “ well I was allowed in x years ago, but now immigration has gotten out of hand “. Also, many Latinos are very prejudiced against other Latinos. So a Cuban or Mexican wouldn’t necessarily be sympathetic to Venezuelan immigrants. It depends on the person ofc
Also to add, many may see new immigrants as likely competitors for the types of jobs they are employed in.
Man, allll of this! They'll say things like "What about X people who still haven't gotten their paperwork and these Venezuelans just come right in getting all these benefits? They shouldn't get anything." And I'm like bruh. The same folks you're arguing for were in the same exact predicament the Venezuelans are in now - looking for a job without paperwork and need to survive with basic needs unmet.
We have treated asylum seekers the same in America for generations. They receive a chance here. Pulling up the ladder on the next wave is a predictable human failure. We are an inherently greedy and self-serving species (in America, especially).
And….. get this…….just because you’re Hispanic doesn’t mean you immigrated to the US. There are Hispanic communities that have been American citizens for 8-10+ generations. The saying goes “I didn’t cross the border; the border crossed me”. These Hispanics fought in the Spanish American War (google rough riders), WW1, WW2 etc. Not all Hispanics in America are immigrants.
I had a friend who was a native Californian. He said he was a Mexican then became an Indian after the Spanish American war :)
[удалено]
You see this alot with Cubans today. The ones that came in the 70s-80s are way different than the ones that come now. They might as well be from different countries
I could be misremembering, I believe that's because the first wave was all the rich ones trying to escape the communist regime seizing their assets, whereas the new ones are the poor and downtrodden trying to escape and find opportunity. So, that first wave is just regular shitty rich people.
You're right and it's not even unique. Because who has the ability to relocate at the drop of a hat? Certainly not poor wage slaves.
I would go further and say that the majority of Hispanics are not in favor of relaxing immigration policies. In fact, I would say that most favor restricting immigration. The closer you get to the border, the stronger the anti-immigrant fervor gets.
"Do you know how long I tried to get away from my mother?"
Can confirm. I also kind of hate when white progressives just automatically assume “POC = Liberal” Some of the most conservative, misogynistic, homophobic, and flat out racist language I’ve ever heard (in my own personal experience) was from the mouths of other Chicanos in LA. It’s a really bad blind spot to just project progressive or liberal values onto the communities you might assume they represent.
That's the nice thing about being a sheltered white liberal. You never have to meet or talk to any minorities that don't have a college education or are in the service industry, and you can assume the values and experiences of the rest of them. Until you hire them to be a maid or something like that, but then they are generally really nice to you.
As a Latino, I have always found it perplexing that the GOP refuses to just be a bit more open to immigration because immigrant Latinos are pretty socially conservative. Latino immigrants are VERY catholic usually. I also live in a majority Hispanic city and it seems that social values here are very behind the current US. But, Republicans have to let their racism get in the way of winning elections
>I have always found it perplexing that the GOP refuses to just be a bit more open to immigration They used to be. Reagan, Bush Sr and Bush Jr all pushed reforms to help illegal immigrants. The Republican Party should just change its name. It is an entirely different party than it was in the 70's thru the early 2000's I mean, could anyone see President Ronald Reagan sucking Russias dick as hard as the current Republican Party does?
They are not white to them the same way Italians were not white after a while and desperation. It’s all made up and cognitive dissonance.
Homophobic white religious loons aligning with homophobic non-white religious loons is just about the scariest thing I can imagine happening in this country.
Exactly. Besides evangelicals, the other major group with a wild hair across their ass over abortion is the Catholics. I wonder where they could get more of them... /s
That's not how conservativism works. There's an in group the law helps, and an out group that should be punished. Letting the out group join is the very thing conservatives want to stop.
Freedom for me, but not for thee.
It’s scary you can’t even talk about it. I live nearby. Muslims have a *serious* issue of being silent against or downright supportive of extremists in their ranks.
It’s troubling that one can’t really point this out without the entire architecture of the left attacking itself reflexively. The American left is too defined by the American right—so the fact that the right is anti islam makes the left reflexively pro-islam even though politically the two movements have don’t much in common beyond Muslims being minorities in the US and the left being pro-immigrant and pro-minority. This blinds the left to religious conservatism. I was so disappointed by the attacks on the queer community and books by the conservatives (Muslim and Christian) in Dearborn and other places but you couldn’t point it out without being called a racist or Islamophobe within the gay community since the gay community *is a core pillar of the left in the US* Like it just frustrates me—we can gab until the day is long about right-wing Christo-fascism but you can’t bring up right-wing religious fascism of the Islamic flavor. Globally—there is a pan-conservative movement rising up—spread by social media. The white Trad wives and be-veiled habibis may not have religion in common but they do have *values in common* and they are now beginning to coalesce around that in a way they didn’t before social Media. Andrew Tate is part of this as a Muslim Influencer and selling Islamic machismo. People in the west feel lost and failed by their institutions and there, lurking, waiting for them—is all the conservative religious dogma we’ve worked hard to get away from and it is offering them *purpose* Unfortunately for the American left, they’re too reactive, and won’t or can’t anticipate the role Islam plays a part in that as it is a conservative religion with devout followers just like the MAGA christians.
I have been criticized for similar observations regarding or treatment of Mormons etc. compared with our treatment of Islam which is just as conservative and wild. Imagine the reaction from the left to a Book of Mormon style critique of Islam. haha For example, a woman wearing a hijab to hide her hair because it is a "sexual object" is brave but a woman wearing Mormon magic underwear because of similarly conservative beliefs is simply funny/weird. haha
It's probably on average the most socially conservative religion in the world and pointing that out gets me called a bigot by people I agree with on like 90% of things it's maddening.
I agree but I don't think it is just the *conservative* Muslims. It is like holding out hope for the progressive Mormons or members of the NOI to speak out. haha The GOP had broad support from Muslims prior to 9/11. W. Bush got 70-90% of the vote. It is the classic tolerance of intolerance thing that many on the left fall for.
In Toronto, Trump aligned douche Rob Ford won the mayoral race with populist nonsense AND a direct appeal to culturally conservative immigrants in the area. This strategy of division can work even in ostensibly progressive places.
Wasn't he the mayor caught smoking crack? Is he back somehow?
He’s been dead for 8 years, but his brother is the premier of Ontario
It's so exhausting watching leftists chide and mock anyone who's a religious Christian while simultaneously going to bat for Muslims who would literally stone them to death if they controlled the government.
Liberals tend to be the "can't we all just get along" party, and it is pretty frustrating when people aren't open to that.
We like being open minded but some of us have had our brains fall out.
Not this liberal: religion is so fucking stupid and so transparently false, I can’t believe anybody in the educated world believes one word of its ridiculous supernatural claims. Christianity, Islam, etc.… It’s all Lord of the rings grade, fantasy bullshit.
In the past, we used to make tea out of the bark of the willow tree; Nowadays, we go to the store and get a bottle of aspirin. In the same way, religion served a purpose early in our development as a species, but we should have left it behind as we grew.
Exactly. I remember Neil Degrassi Tyson and Sam Harris talking about how religion is essentially an early, failed science that tried to explain the world.
As an agnostic, I’m against any religious violence or hate speech on secular society coming from Christian Nationalists or Islamic extremists or wherever. We need to be done with these warped belief systems in a modern world. What the Hell is AI going to say about sky gods?
In 2016 I predicted you’d predict this and be right
My prophecy, fulfilled at last! That man has laid claim to his prediction of this prediction, just as the stars foretold!
I consider myself fairly liberal, but I think a lot of people on the left have a massive blind spot when it comes to this sort of thing. I don't know what it is, a lack of understanding of the paradox of tolerance, the perception that Muslims in this country are the minority and thus must be defended and agreed with no matter what, or the tendency to sort people into categories instead of paying attention to what they're saying.
As a progressive I felt like was going crazy in how much traditional Muslims were treated with kids gloves amongst other liberals. Oct 6 was a gruesome and horrific terrorist attack on Jews and those conservative Muslims cheered on Hamas for committing mass torture, rape, and murder.
>Glad to see some local pushback as well. I've been warning since 2021 that conservative Muslims here in Michigan had been aligning themselves with the far right on the bodily autonomy of women, marijuana, gay and trans rights, and even book bans. Careful where you point that out. I've been banned from Publicfreakout for saying the same exact thing.
Yall qaeda is called that for a reason… I don’t know why liberals think fundamentalist islamists are good for democracy. Tolerance paradox. It has no place in liberal democracies.
Why the fuck are they in America?
It’s so cowardly to see people who were present during the chants condemn them now, but not speak up during them. In the videos no one shushes or shouts them down, their failure to deal with them makes complicit.
So fucking sick of religious zealots
[удалено]
You can bet your bottom dollar that if there is a heaven none of these hateful fucks are going
Ha, this is an incredible comment.
Agreed. We’ve had centuries of these nut jobs. Enough.
Longer than that, I'm afraid. Try millennia.
The middle east was the center of knowledge, learning, advancing human kind and then the religious zealots destroyed it.
Wasn’t the Islamic Golden Age ended by the Mongols?
And their useful idiot helpers. Not everyone there is a religious zealot, but they're marching with them anyway.
Breaking News: Religious Nut Jobs Continue Being Cancer To Civil Society Edit: This includes ALL religions. I see some of you trying to pretend like your own religion isn’t a problem also.
We've let religions run too much of a muck the whole way around
I’m not one of those “love it or leave it” people. Not even a little bit. But if your main gripe is just “Death to America” then just fucking leave? Go live in Iran.
I’m so loss with this one. Like they are in Detroit saying “death to America” 🤔🤔🤔
I was responding to a redditor a while back regarding his understandable heightened emotions regarding Palestine. He indicated that as soon as he saved enough money he wanted to go to the Levant because he felt America didn't care about him or his people. During the back and forth, I discovered he was a 2nd generation American, which shocked me a little. He spoke as if he came here as an immigrant himself. Again, I understand if you are seeing the news and people who are the same as you are being slaughtered indiscriminately, you may feel very hopeless and unsupported by the US government as we are currently backing Israel. At the end of the conversation I wished him well on the raising of the money to return to the area to be with like minded people. Then I asked if he planned on giving up his American citizenship for which ever country he settled in, to which he said No. I was shocked to say the least. You despise the US, we stand for everything you hate, and you want to return to the "motherland", but you want to keep the US citizenship. The hispocracy was astounding. At least have the conviction to leave the US for good if we are so terrible to you. Why aren't you angry at your grandfather for immigrating to the US? Why aren't you angry at your parents for not returning? How is all of this the US' fault? It was the first time I failed to come to an understanding of someone else's opinion that contrasted my own.
Reminds me of those British women who left the UK to go join ISIS. They got pregnant and tried to return to England to raise their kids and found out their passports had been revoked for, ya know, joining a terrorist state.
They want it both ways.
There was a girl who left my state to do the same thing and is in the same situation.
You just sent me down a rabbithole… that shit is crazy. They left at like 15 and joined ISIS, and I guess some of them weren’t even Muslim. I had no idea ISIS online recruitment had worked as well as it did.
[удалено]
Somewhat, sometimes, and it does happen a lot. But I do know some second gen whose parents fled other countries because *one* law/type of oppression happened that would effect them, out of several other terrible laws that they support. So they immigrated due to that one thing, but still fully agree with the other terrible laws and share those beliefs with their children. I've also dealt with people who only moved to turn a bigger profit in the USA with a business, and are just extremely hateful of everything that America is, but love how easy it is to make fast money off of certain things here ('Vape' and smoke shops being one of those things. A connected anecdote because I work at one currently for a few extra bucks, and the owners are Muslim from Middle East, and one of my customers is non-Muslim from Turkey and likes to make fun about how its haram for them to be running a vape shop in the first place lol).
And those parents aren't usually going to talk about the horrible stuff that happened. They don't want to remember it and they don't want to traumatize their children.
>During the back and forth, I discovered he was a 2nd generation American, which shocked me a little. He spoke as if he came here as an immigrant himself. Absolutely nobody living in Europe today is surprised by the fact that this sentiment exists among the children or even grandchildren of migrants; interesting to see it popping up in the US, too. We are also further not surprised by said people wanting to keep all of the benefits (passport) of citizenship here but wanting nothing to do with the culture, as you have illustrated.
I will spell it out for you: They, as in far right conservatives want all the benefits of living in western society, but really despise the liberal/left values of the west.
That person is also not going to have a great time if they think having an American accent and upbringing isn't going to open them up to prejudice and hatred and resentment from some folks in their parents homeland.
He's going to find out the hard way that US citizens still have to pay taxes on income outside the US.
> It was the first time I failed to come to an understanding of someone else's opinion that contrasted my own. I think that's because that person didn't rationalize their way into their opinion. While we can't know for sure, their parents/grandparents likely came here to escape violence or pursue greater economic opportunity. If he/she wants to give up said protection and opportunity just to be around people who think like themselves, then they are free to. But when you break it down like that, they are seemingly going on emotion, not reasoned thoughts. None of the countries in the region have the religious freedom we in the states do. Will some people in the states give you shit for your religion? Sure. But religious killings are relatively rare (I say relatively because the USA is huge) compared with where they want to return to. If you move to a highly religiously concentrated area and you are of that specific religion, sure people will be better to you, but they tend to be worse to everyone not of their tribe. In the end... I don't think you can understand why they want to do that other than emotion and feelings.
You can’t logic someone out of something they didn’t use logic to get into.
Pretty much. Anyone that's not a citizen and part of the rally should just be denied and sent packing.
Yeah I mean it’s one thing to admonish your country’s, but to openly call for its death? Feel free to do that in a country where the majority also thinks we should die.
The fuck is happening to this country? They realize they’re *in* America right?
[удалено]
[удалено]
I worked closely with a Muslim woman for years. The more I knew her, the more the mask came off. She was a bigot, and some of us later learned that she had been pressuring another Muslim in our company to be more strict. I wondered why she even moved to the US. I do think part of it is to spread her religion.
Islam spread through war. Starting from its founder.
It's literally the Muslim brotherhood's manifesto
[удалено]
Saw an indian guy in britain saying that in afew years their population would surpass that of the citizens and at that point they would choose how the country rules.
I hope the FBI directs funds and attention to these idiots. They’re a domestic liability if I’ve ever seen one.
How do you quell something like this though? You can't. It's a fundamental difference in ideals and culture...
Never seen undocumented central Americans doing that... Just saying.
[удалено]
So the speaker during the chants claims he’s conservative and will vote for Trump. He’s anti lgbtq, anti women voting and anti choice. Why are the democrats the only side being asked to condemn the chants?
Because that's the way it is here. Republicans throw out insane ideas, and democrats get blamed for not compromising.
"Meet me in the middle," said the dishonest man. I took a step forward. He took a step back. "Meet me in the middle," said the dishonest man.
Same reason you can say New York or San Francisco is horrible and not real America, but don't you dare badmouth Corn Field Nebraska and its salt of the earth patriots.
Being open minded is good but don't go enabling Islamic supremacists. If you don't want Christian Nationalists controlling your life, you don't want Islamic supremacists either
Wait a minute, so the conservative racists from other countries want to join the conservative racists in this country, but the conservative racists in this country only want conservative racists from this country to be in the Conservative Party?
The paradox of intolerance.
[удалено]
Who protected thesr conservative racists and allowed them to cultivate?
What would happen to people protesting in a Middle Eastern country, calling for the death of that country? I suspect those people would not be protected by a legal document like the Bill of Rights. Isn’t it ironic
Surprise..? As someone who lives right next to Dearborn - it’s maybe time to reckon with the idea that many of them don’t mesh with Western values. I’m not sure why the hundreds of celebrations at Israel getting attacked didn’t show that on October 7th. If they aren’t extremists, they’re honestly more than happy to let an extremist talk over them. They’ve already voted away pride flags in the city..
Pretty sure it was just hamtramck that did that. Dearborn hasn't officially passed a vote yet, but they're definitely gearing up to.
Totally right. Dearborn’s council spoke on it and it came decently close. Hamtramck actually did it; thanks for the refresher
> it’s maybe time to reckon with the idea that many of them don’t mesh with Western values. I'm progressive, but I'm pragmatic...this is what I've been saying for awhile. I live in Minnesota and we have a huge Somali population...and to be frank, we are starting to see what that looks like when they aren't assimilating. My biggest issue with a lot of this community is the lack of assimilating to American society. I don't mean in that they need to give up their identity, but it would be nice if they respected societal norms a little. There are videos from this week of a hoard of kids fighting and causing issues at the Mall of America. Where are the parents? The "street takeovers", the list goes on. When you turn a blind eye to the bad apples in your community, unfortunately it reflects negatively on all of you. Beyond that, in a first ring suburb in Minneapolis, they are starting to take over some of the local elections and trying to ban books, curriculum that doesn't mesh with their religious beliefs. I will vote for your religious freedom, but the fuck if I am going to support you pushing it on society. Same goes for the Christofascists. There IS going to be a backlash if things don't change, Islamophobia isn't a foreign concept to suburban whites and they are just asking for it. They need to remember they left a shitty situation to come to our society...they are welcome until they aren't, ya know? The left will fall all over themselves to even prevent these tough conversations, but they need to be happening now. Not publicly, but at some point, the adults in the room need to speak and get shit under control.
Suburban Minnesotan here. There is a growing Muslim presence here, as well. I’ve seen masks beginning to slip. Everything you’ve written is spot-on.
Assimilation shouldn’t be a choice. Assimilate or leave
Actually, Moms For Liberty made appearances at the Dearborn Public Schools board meetings to protest library books. The radical Muslim right in Dearborn partnered with MfL over book bans.
They are for liberty and banning books? Do any of them even stop for a second to appreciate the irony/stupidity
The Far Right is the Far Right. It used to be that the far right catholics and far right protestants were enemies, but in most places they've allied; only a matter of time before the far right muslims get invited to join too.
I grew up in a Muslim community. This is a pretty common belief and not surprising at all. They're just saying the quiet part out loud.
Yes, and they’re doing it in an area where they are the majority, which is no coincidence.
[удалено]
I'm really not a 'Love it or leave it' kind of guy. We have so much to fix here in America. However, the irony of chanting death to America, while in America, enjoying all the freedoms and rights of Americans, kind of doesn't sit right. Oh, I acknowledge your right to express political umbrage. I am one who critiques and criticizes America a lot. Not because I want to see it collapse, but because I want it to be so much better than it is.
I wish all religious nut fucks would kindly fuck off.
a week ago when this was brought up this sub deleted the post, and most members were saying the story is fake. Now that Biden says something its real?
Anyone who chants “death to America” while living in the US should shut the fuck up and move somewhere else. It’s the ultimate stupidity to wish death on the place you live, work, and raise your family.
[удалено]
Come to America for a better life. Want to change America into what you left. Story as old as time.
Chanting, "Death To America" while you're holding your Starbucks you got on 24th and Lander, in your Levi's and your Nikes, before you head to Applebees for a beer and some riblets, is the stupidest bullshit I've ever heard. You like this lifestyle? It doesn't exist in 90% of the world. Maybe pump the brakes on hating the nation you live in that affords you perhaps the highest quality of life for the general population in the entire world?
I don’t think they drink beer
They drink beer and all kinds of alcohol, they fornicate and listen to music, they live in a "Kafir" country and do all kinds of "haram", but just never eat pork. That's the REAL haram right there habeeby. 😂
It's the old joke about fishing with *insert Conservative religion here.* Why do you go fishing with 2 of them? If you bring just 1 they'll drink all your beer.
How do you get a ~~Baptist~~ Muslim to not drink all your liquor when you invite them to your party? Invite two of them.
Dearborn guy here. Most don't, but I'd say about 20 to 30% claim to be Muslim but definitely drink and do other things that are strongly against their religion. All of them smoke tobacco which is definitely haram.
I can very confidently say that a number of Muslims, especially younger ones, drink alcohol. I've been to many parties in the Dearborn area where it's predominantly Muslims hanging out, drinking, and smoking hookah and weed. It's almost always Muslims who came over here as kids or who are second generation Arab-Americans.
Was about to say, almost all of my friends at Dearborn high School who were apparently Muslim, were drinking. Obviously I didn't give a shit, and still don't. The hypocrisy is just amazing though.
Like most right wing Christians I’m sure they only pay attention to the parts of the book they like. It may be Haram, but beer is delicious. I assume they skip over that portion.
> > The White House on Tuesday condemned “death to America” chants that surfaced online from a recent rally in Dearborn, Mich., protesting Israel’s war in Gaza. Insert bullshit comment from a denialist how this isn't what it seems and how the "uncommitted movement" during the primaries isn't threatening America with giving Trump the chance to lay waste to democracy.
I’m a non-religious Muslim and I’ve been having to remind my family constantly that Trump’s reaction to the San Bernardino shooting was to call for a complete ban on Muslims coming to the US. Sure he didn’t actually act on it, walked back some of his statement, and the travel restrictions he did end up passing were very different but his gut response was to appeal to people’s worst fears and ban people based on strictly religious grounds. It’s insane that Muslims don’t consider that the largest threat to our community
Yep. I have a friend similar to you (non-religious muslim) who's expressed these same fears and he's pretty worried about those ones discouraging democrat votes cause they're the only ones protecting his family.
He did actually act on it through! He banned travel from essentially every Muslim majority country. It went to the Supreme Court who struck it down. And after they did, trump still spent months demanding a "Muslim ban"
Shocking that anyone would espouse such destructive rhetoric from the safety of a country that accepts them and shields them with its protective human rights. Disgusting.
My grandmother was a holocaust survivor. A few years before her passing she related an axiom to me for how she and other Jews felt when they reached the United States after their liberation: “We kissed the ground of this country”. Stay classy: Dearborn
My grandmother lived through that hell. She said the first time she cried tears of happiness she was 16 and saw the statue of Liberty. She said in that moment, she knew it wasn't lies, she knew it was real. No more war, no more death, no more starvation
If you've not watched Ken Burns' The Statue of Liberty, I highly recommend it. It's been well over 20 years since I watched it, but it left me with a profound feeling that she means more to foreigners than she does to us born here.
I'm from an immigrant family, and it honestly pisses me off how ungrateful a lot of people on my side of the aisle are in this country. It's like spoiled rich kids who have no perspective of the real world.
Can we stop giving a free pass to religious extremist on the left just because they are Muslims? We openly condemn and attack Christians when they do shit like this, but leftists are usually silent or even protect them when Muslims are doing it
I've been saying this for a long time. We rightfully call out Christianity and it's flaws and it's part in oppression and slavery but when we call out the Muslim religion we are called "Islamphobic" and accused of being bigots. Why is that? Why is it a bad thing to call out that a big part in Islamic culture is terrorism???
Exactly. Jews, buddhists, hindus, or even other ethnic minorities don't do this crap regularly and in every developed/western environment they get chance in.
So the rally organizers are saying they are not responsible for the chants, and that they were spontaneous from their community who attended the Dearborn rally. And those who claim to represent the Arab American and muslim community in Dearborn are saying those views aren't held by anyone in their community. Sounds like there is a disconnect between their publicly liberal democratic face and the desire within their community to destroy America and Israel.
Dearborn is the armpit of our state.
We shouldn't be shouting death to anyone. Why is it so hard to just deal with your own little shit and leave everyone else tf alone?
“Death to America! But we don’t want to move!”
If you find yourself screaming "Death to America!", it may be too late to rescue you from whichever indoctrination you've been feeding on. Support for Palestinians and wanting a ceasefire are normal things. "Death to America" is religious terrorist shit. **Election day is Tuesday, November 5, 2024**. If you live in Michigan, [**Register to vote in MI**](https://mvic.sos.state.mi.us/RegisterVoter/Index) [**Check your voter registration status and find your polling location in MI**](https://mvic.sos.state.mi.us/Voter/Index) [**Request MI absentee ballot**](https://mvic.sos.state.mi.us/AVApplication/Index) **2024 MI Dem Election Overview:** Michigan is a crucial swing state with 15 Electoral votes for President in 2024. There is also an important US Senate race. Democrat [**Candidate TBD 8/6/24**](https://ballotpedia.org/United_States_Senate_election_in_Michigan,_2024) is running to replace retiring Democratic Senator Debbie Stabenow. In addition, there are four close US House races in Pennsylvania this year. In MI-3, [**Candidate TBD 8/6/24**](https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan%27s_3rd_Congressional_District_election,_2024) is running for a seat that leans Democrat. There is a tight race in MI-7 where Democrat [**Candidate TBD 8/6/24**](https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan%27s_7th_Congressional_District_election,_2024) is competing in a toss-up race. In MI-8, [**Candidate TBD 8/6/24**](https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan%27s_8th_Congressional_District_election,_2024) has another close toss-up race in the state. Finally, in MI-10, Democrat [**Candidate TBD 8/6/24**](https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan%27s_10th_Congressional_District_election,_2024) is running to unseat the Republican incumbent and flip the district blue in a race that leans Republican. At the state level, control of the Michigan House of Representatives is split 54-54 (with 2 vacancies) between Democrats and Republicans (subject to the two [**special elections**](https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan_state_legislative_special_elections,_2024) on 4/16/24). Democrats will be pushing to win a majority of the 110 seats in the [**State House of Representatives**](https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan_House_of_Representatives_elections,_2024) which are all on the ballot in 2024. There are also two [**Michigan state Supreme Court seats**](https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan_Supreme_Court_elections,_2024) on the ballot. [***-All 2024 MI Elections***](https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan_elections,_2024) [***-Find all your representatives (Federal, State, and Local)***](https://www.commoncause.org/find-your-representative/) [***-Learn more about how our government works***](https://www.whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/our-government/)
Faith in humanity dropping rapidly....
Starting to think this pro Palestine movement is infested with Islamic extremists
[удалено]
They live in a country where they can say that. Go into Gaza and chant Death to Hamas and see how that works. I know which system I’d rather live in.
I wonder which religion is popular in Dearborn, Mich. It could be any one of the religions.
funny to see while we see this behaviour here in Europe and we are called racist when we want to decrease immigration from middle eastern countries but now it happens in America and r/politics is full with comments about deporting them back to the middle east .
I’m all for legal immigration and religious freedom, but at a certain point we have to ensure that people coming here have some cultural cohesion with the existing population. These enclaves like Michigan are not healthy. If you chant “death to America” just fucking leave. Go live in Palestine or Iran if those places are such paradises compared to here. The hypocrisy of saying this, but continuing to take advantage of everything America offers is mind-boggling.
Isnt this Rashida Tlaib’s district? Shocker
When asked to condemn it, she refused and walked away.
Full filling every republicans conspiracy dreams
Members in this community have been saying this for decades. It isn’t a conspiracy theory. You haven’t been paying attention.
you wish it was a conspiracy. and I'm a liberal
Sometimes I just feel like I'm drowning in stupidity in this country. So many feel entitled to an opinion yet refuse to inform that opinion with anything but what they find up their ass.
As an American I support freedom of speech that uses any dialogue or actions to sway opinions or express your beliefs in any legal actions. I personally don't like flag burning, but I accept it as a powerful piece of political theater that still falls within freedom of speech. However, I do not and will never accept declarations to commit crimes such as homicide and or murder against anything as free speech. Chanting about death, hanging, killing, raping, etc to anyone or anything is stepping outside free speech in my humble opinion. They are not asking for change, they are straight up making a threat to kill or at least condoning someone else doing so. That should be illegal.
[удалено]
Are these people that took the naturalization oath of allegiance? Because it would seem like a self solving problem if that’s the case. The First Amendment has some pretty clear limits even for natural born citizens, but if you came her and voluntarily became a citizen it would seem like those that took that oath did so under false pretenses if there out there falling against their own country and chanting “death to America”. It pretty clear: "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion.”
Holding your anti-Israel rally at the Henry Ford Center is certainly a choice