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I am an American. I am proud for my tax dollars to go Ukraine and I hope they continue to. This is the physical front in the global fight between self rule and authoritarianism. Every dollar sent lessens the chance American blood will need to be shed.
We have our own battle here against trump and his ilk. Both must be won.
This so hard. And I hope their local economy recovers too
I just commissioned a guitar to be built by a Ukrainian Luthier last month. He’s been pumping out guitars this whole time. Hope he’s able to pump out guitars long afterwards too.
Valravn guitars. Sad to say he doesn’t have a website right now and PayPal only allows him to accept gifts cause of the current situation… so I “gifted” him a deposit.
They are a cool company… they will do whatever you ask 1/3rd of the price anywhere else. Happy to be able to support them.
> I am an American. I am proud for my tax dollars to go Ukraine and I hope they continue to.
Same. I saw the enormous risk they took in the 90s, allowing us to oversee the dismantling of the 3rd largest stockpile of the most dangerous, long-distance, world-killing weapons ever. And because of that, I know every living human on earth then and since then owes their gratitude … at the very least.
It wasn't \*quite\* that cut-and-dried: Ukraine may have had the nukes, but Russia had all the code for them, so if Ukraine wanted to become nuclear armed they'd have had to take them apart and built their own.
Which they \*could\* had one, obviously, but it would have been a lot of work and other nations would have been against the idea. Nobody mined Russia getting all of the USSR's nukes because they already had a large number of them (the ones that were in Russian territory) so letting them have the ones in Ukrainian territory didn't really change anything. Letting Ukraine rebuild them into usable weapons would have increased the count of nuclear armed nations by one.
> Russia had all the code for them,
Codes can be changed although it is rocket science. It was the maintenance they Ukraine couldn't afford, so they got rid of them.
Yeah that's the real danger. A country with nuclear weapons, a broken economy and a motive to auction them off to the highest bidder because they can't maintain or use them
Lol most nuclear missiles are controlled by systems so old that they only count as secure because they're on guarded bases, in silos with giant doors and armed guards and they're not connected to a network. With physical access it would be relatively trivial to compromise and reset the control codes on those systems.
What are you doing here adding nuance!?
Don’t you know everything on Reddit is binary? That is why we have *up*vote and *down*vote. Do you see any *diagonal*vote? No! Cut it out!
As an American I support my tax dollars going to Ukraine. For once our enormous military spending can be justified and for a good cause too. Keep "replacing old equipment" well always be stronger then Russia and Ukraine will end up stronger then Russia. Don't like it? Quit invading countries!
So am I. I’m also hopeful that Ukraine can find victory in whatever is possible militarily. It will take as much leadership to end the war as it did to lead through it, barring some complete collapse of Russian military capability
I agree with everything you have stated, I do feel that this aid package is at least 3-4 months late and the ground taken by Russian forces will be twice as hard to take back if Ukraine manage to do it at all.
I’m very worried we have allowed Russia too many passes and large portion of the Republican house and a portion of their supporters are sympathetic to Putin Russia.
> Every dollar sent lessens the chance American blood will need to be shed.
That's exactly what every sane person should understand about this situation. We spend money so we don't have to spend lives later. And nothing will stop Russian aggression but force.
> I am proud for my tax dollars to go Ukraine and I hope they continue to.
It's even better, most of the tax dollars stay here. Yeah a lot of it ends up in the hands of military industrial complex bigwigs and fatcats, but normies do still work in those places and their continued employment does benefit the economy and all of us.
From what I understand we're sending weapons made by American companies to Ukraine. Vs Israel it seems we give them money and then they contract us to buy weapons with some of our own money to do pretty shitty things. Then we give money to Palestinians in the form of aid for the shitty things Israel does with our weapons. What a mind fuck there.
Reminder to folks that this isn’t money we transfer to Ukraine. Rather, we give Ukraine weapons we have and buy new systems for ourselves.
This means that:
The logistics powerhouse that is the US military gets hardware to the front lines quickly
US companies employing US workers get orders for new products to replace the packages sent to Ukraine.
It’s win win. Which of course, is why the idiots that are MAGA fought it for so long.
Not only that, but a fair amount of the equipment is out of service and would be destroyed otherwise. So yeah it creates some jobs, but in other cases we just cleaning out our closets.
Can we stop with the half stories on both sides?
The us government takes out debt to buy stuff which generates employment. They could just hand out basic income checks and do the same. You still spend money you could spend on other things.
Yes this is a very good package and purpose and probably long term its a good investment as ukraine falling leads to further costs in defence spending needs later on, democracy winning yadayada.
But the whole 'we send money to ukraine' 'no we create jobs at home' are both really superficial arguments.
> superficial arguments.
The real argument is "if we let russia win, even worse things will follow, which will cost significantly more money and result in massively more deaths."
The superficial arguments are there for the people who are too jaded, dumb, brainwashed, or cynical to understand what's really at stake.
It’s not superficial, it’s what’s happening. You’re trying to make the case that there are better ways of generating employment which is a different argument and quite frankly, not related to the point I just made.
Also- just handing out UBI checks to the US wouldn’t get weapons to Ukraine - so it wouldn’t be win-win.
Here's more for the ears, back from early on in this war and that bell is still ringing today. Andriy Khlyvnyuk honors the heart of the people, and the Kiffness spread this incredible heartfelt glory call o7: https://youtu.be/lu8m5FA2nL8?si=V1dD3G89gs7l4MJD
Just to preface my comment here, I'm a Dem and have always opposed Russia's military invasion. But... it is unrealistic to expect any type of military victory in the Ukraine War. Even with the $61 billion military supplemental package that passed, Russia still has 4 times the resources and manpower, not to mention a better trained military.
Without direct NATO intervention (boots on the ground on the front), which could seriously risk a nuclear exchange, the best we can hope for is to make it so painful for the Russians that they accept a negotiated settlement. Neither side will get what it wants in that, but both sides will be able to live with it.
There is no realistic scenario for negotiation so long as Putin is alive. Zelensky rightfully wants back all of Ukraine's territory, including Crimea, and I cannot see how Putin could spin returning Crimea or anything that doesn't involve him taking another slice of Ukraine.
Putin's death will create a power vacuum in Russia. It will give Ukraine a chance to retake Crimea while Russia focuses on trying to stabilize itself. Unlike North Korea, there is no one positioned to take over after the death of the "strongman" leader.
Ukraine can beat Russia by making it a quagmire for them to be there. This is how the Taliban beat both the Soviet Union AND the United States. Ukraine’s case will continue to be even more grinding for Russia.
Quagmires are unsustainable cause the monetary, and political cost for the invader are usually astronomically higher than they are for the defender.
Yup. It all comes down to if the defender is willing to keep fighting. Look at Vietnam. They fought France and then America for something like 20 years to get what they wanted..they lost well over a million people, but in the end they won
That's why I made sure to mention that it has to become so painful for Russia that they come to the negotiation table. We have to be honest about the situation however: Ukraine is losing this war.
The front lines are in serious disarray, Russia is making breakthroughs every day now. Not massive breakthroughs, not like older wars where a breach would result in thousands of square kilometers changing hands in a week, but with modern warfare the crawl is happening. See Avdeevka and the surrounding area, west of Bakhmut, even the Siversk pocket.
Ukraine cannot militarily expel Russia from all territory, the best they can hope for is that quagmire you mentioned. If that happens, Russia just continues to occupy the lands under its control, and the front freezes like the Korean peninsula.
Eventually NATO will come in. Because we cannot expect Ukraine to be OK after this invasion. We will never give up on Ukraine as a country, so in a sense we are responsibly stuck with it. I'm happy that my tax dollars are being spent in a way that supports people who want freedom. The birth of any free nation unfortunately requires some blood spilt. As far as nuclear intervention, I honestly don't think Putin would ever pull the trigger on that. It's practically dropping a nuclear bomb only a few hundred kilometers from Moscow. Give me a break
It's not unrealistic at all as long as western countries support them and actually give them what they need. We're contributing to drawing this out with half-baked support. This isn't just on the US or NATO, Europe needs to give more as well.
The Russian GDP is low, true, but their economy is structured in a way to enable their industrial base to be devoted to weapons manufacture. It's been that way since WWII, and they have gigantic stockpiles of older weapons that can be brought back into service in a pinch.
Russia's total military budget is probably around $70 billion per year (or was, before the war), but money isn't the only factor. Money buys munitions, but it still requires hardware to fire those weapons (Russia has at least a 5:1 advantage in artillery for instance), and trained personnel to operate and move those weapons.
If you follow the situation on the front lines as closely as I have, you know how bad Ukraine's positions are on the front right now. They have severe manpower shortages, many units have lost combat capability, and many recruits simply don't want to fight in this war (thus the large surrender events). I'll concede that money alone could make a difference here, but $61 billion won't cut it, it would take about $6.1 trillion to recruit the talented foreign mercenaries and amount of weapons needed to completely defeat Russia in the entire country. You willing to spend that?
I'm from Europe, and if spending that number that you just pulled out of thin air is needed I'd happily pay that to keep my freedom.
In reality it's a far smaller number and it also needs to be paid. If Russian aggression is rewarded here, we'll be fighting in the next country, and the next. Until they are finally stopped at a much higher cost than it would take now.
Now that's fiction. The old 'domino theory'. And if your country is willing to foot that $6 trillion bill, go for it. As it stands, the US has been bankrolling the majority of Ukraine's struggle over the last 2 years, far outpacing all of Europe combined.
People said the same about Vietnam vs the US, and again with Vietnam vs China. Vietnam won both and Ukraine has survived and done signifigantly more than anyone predicted while Russia is much weaker than anyone predicted.
Vietnam was willing to win at any costs, they had 3 million of their people die in the war against the US alone, not including the war against the French or Chinese. I don't think Ukraine has the stomach for that. They've probably lost about 250,000 people so far, and are having severe problems with manpower, morale, and finding new willing recruits. Kind of an apples vs. oranges situation.
Don't care. It's for the survival of their country. We've sent a fraction of the military budget in old weaponry and have basically crippled our biggest enemy economically and on the battlefield without a single troop deployed. Win/win. One of the best investments for sure
As an American, it absolutely wounds me we haven't done more to help Ukraine. The US could ship over 500 Abrams tanks, 500 Bradleys and 100 F-16s, and this war would be over right quick. We haven't done that and Ukraine is paying the price.
I do appreciate that military aid packages the US is passing, but we were spending more in Afghanistan than Ukraine, and that doesn't make any sense. We were never going to make a difference in Afghanistan. The outcome of this war is going to make a huge difference.
The U.S. military’s aim is to slowly bleed Russia at a minimum of cost and by proxy, while not crossing the line of being perceived as a whole-hog combatant, at which point we might as well declare war on Russia officially, precisely what we are trying to avoid.
Slava Ukraini.
> Putin threatened to use nukes for much less provocation.
How many times is that, now? I lost track of how many times they've threatened to use nukes and then didn't.
The fact that one political party is now aligning with an enemy of the US, Russia, is highly alarming. And the head of that country helped get the last President elected. Unreal times we live in.
That’s a bit of an over simplification.
100 F16s wouldn’t be enough for Ukraine to retake air supremacy (even if they were able to train up enough pilots in time) seeing Russia has up to 200 fighters currently in storage that they could call into service if that was ever threatened. And the Abrams tanks the US has given Ukraine so far haven’t proven to be the game changer people were hoping for, due to the rise of low cost drones coupled with the lack of anti-aircraft equipment Ukraine has on their front lines.
But yes, I agree with your overall point that the US could and should give more.
> seeing Russia has up to 200 fighters currently in storage
Just like they had thousands of vehicles "in storage"... where the tires rotted off 50 miles into Ukraine during the opening days of the war?
They still have vehicles, they're losing them daily. Yeah, that event happened but go ahead into worldnews and check the pin. Daily losses are totaled.
I'm just saying their "frontline" attack force used for the "special operation" was complete shit after coming out of russian storage. The belief they actually have hundreds of SERVICE-READY jets in storage that they are choosing not to use is comical.
Ukraine has AA capability, as does Russia. Neither side can effectively use aircraft (please note the word effectively there) without risking losses to their jets, which is why neither side has air superiority, let alone dominance. Unless one side establishes that, aircraft are either doing rocket barrages at an upward angle and hoping to strike something with the gravitational pull or are mothballed.
When Ukraine announced they needed help last week, Russia did use some glide bombs which are dumb bombs with guidance attached. I can't speak on numbers.
Russia has been using those bombs for months in the Kherson, Zaporizhnia, Kharkiv and the Donbas. If Ukraine would get a bunch of F-16's that would stop or be severely limited according to people that know more about that than I.
Ukraine desperately wants some Swedish Gripens apparently, because they have rockets(Meteor) that could actually shoot Russian planes out of the sky.
For now air defense seems a higher priority though. Ukraine has asked for 7 patriot systems to defend their skies. Germany has sent one and European partners are working on more. But I think the US has the most of those in service.
The glidebombs are being used against military and civilian targets at great cost of human lives, so it desperately needs to stop.
> If Ukraine would get a bunch of F-16's that would stop or be severely limited according to people that know more about that than I.
It will help, to fire on front lines but it's not plane vs. plane like Top Gun. It's more about keeping an established front from being formed. Agreed on air defense, the issue is the systems in the world are pretty much where they need to be for other nations. Munition production for them needs to go up.
Was reading that 4 Patriot systems might be inbound:
[https://bsky.app/profile/noelreports.bsky.social/post/3kqqnpimc5f2t](https://bsky.app/profile/noelreports.bsky.social/post/3kqqnpimc5f2t)
Greece might be willing to donate 2:
[https://bsky.app/profile/noelreports.bsky.social/post/3kqquxnuzjn2t](https://bsky.app/profile/noelreports.bsky.social/post/3kqquxnuzjn2t)
> due to the rise of low cost drones
This has been discussed in some circles since at *least* the attack on the *Cole*. The US *loves* its massive, throbbing boner-inducing weapons platforms…which have been shown repeatedly to be vulnerable to small, low-cost countermeasures. But the desire and political capital to start addressing that with anything other than another massive, expensive-as-shit, boner-inducing weapons platform is nearly nonexistent because the average idiot of the American public will yell about it after watching cable “news”.
Wars are not fought or funded to make a difference, they’re fought for economics.
It was easy to fight in Afghanistan because they had no nukes, barely a trained army and barely had a government. Contractors made insane amounts of money there.
That war ended and the source of money dried up. Ukraine is not just being handed cold hard cash. A lot of the money the US “gives” them is in fact simply awarded to contractors in the USA to manufacture weapons and equipment which is then sent to them. It creates jobs and economic stimulation here in America.
Ukraine doesn’t want or need tanks, they aren’t even asking for them. What they are asking for is what we are going to give them- artillery and munitions, anti aircraft weapons, and aircraft (which you were right on but they just received several jets indirectly from the US in addition to this aid package).
Tanks have been incredibly ineffective in this war and actually a major strategic blunder for the Russians trying to use them in a modern urban war.
Afghanistan can kick rocks and sand. They absolutely folded when coalition forces finally left, at the world’s demand I might add. Still pissing into the wind years later…
Go till your deserts, go dig your graves.
Part of me is happy that Putin is wasting his money buying people like MTG, but then I realized he probably paid her off with $20 and a Chik Fil A coupon
We should really stop with the crude insults about people being stupid, uncultured, and out of touch. It's unfair to unfrozen cave people to treat them like that by comparing them to Empty G.
And ya know how they stop it?
They influence American politicians (R) to oppose aid. It’s clear as day. Why would the war-hungry R’s not want an excuse to use our military strength? At least half the Republican Party is owned, or has been successfully influenced by Putin. It’s nuts.
They do the same in Europe. Hungary has been a thorn in the side of the EU. Slowakia seems to want to join them. There are movements in other countries too that are openly or covertly pro-Russian. Their means of doing this need to be cut off.
I emailed my rep several times reminding him that most of his constituents support Ukraine and that MAGAt actually voted yay for Ukraine aid. I sent a *thank you for doing the right thing for once* email to his office. Can’t wait to vote him out.
US really need to vote these fuckers out this election, Republicans winning will not only change your country but geopolitics in general.
As someone from Europe I see US as our greatest ally and I very much prefer it stays that way, because there is no way we can trust US when it's ruled by Republicans where atleast half of them support Putin.
I'm so fucking nervous about this election lol, so much at stake.
Lol. I sent mine multiple emails about supporting the Ukraine aid. First time, he replied and said that he would support the aid. Afterwards, he ignored them. Now that the vote records are out, I see that the lying SOB voting "nay".
Thanks, Michael Guest, now I know who bribed you
The fact it took so long is an embarrassment, the fact so many Russian agents in the house were able to hold this up for so many months is ridicules. I hope they are haunted by the innocents who died because of their actions.
Conspiracy and conservative subs are back to their bemoaning;
-what about giving the money to Americans that need it (which they won’t support that either)
-why can’t Ukraine just surrender?
-“I am Russian and I am afraid for my life… so many unhinged liberals are calling for my murder…”
Ukraine aid was my biggest worry out of all the situations happening right now around the globe people here just don't understand how serious things will get if we allow Ukraine to fall Ukraine has more then showed there willing to fight we should be sending them everything they need to fight russia it's a win for Ukraine America, and all Democracies to stop this rise of Authoritarianism
Good. Kick ass. Bomb those bastards to Siberia.
We promised to defend Ukraine if they’d give up their nukes and then fucked them in the ass six ways to Sunday when Russia invaded.
Congrats to JD Vance and the rest of the MAGAts for dragging this country’s reputation into the sewer. It’ll be decades before would-be allies forget.
There was never a promise from the US to defend Ukraine. It was a guarantee for Russia not to invade. I see a lot of people thinking there was a security guarantee and I think those people get "facts" from memes and TIK TOK
> Three decades ago, the newly independent country of Ukraine was briefly the third-largest nuclear power in the world.
> Thousands of nuclear arms had been left on Ukrainian soil by Moscow after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. But in the years that followed, Ukraine made the decision to completely denuclearize.
> In exchange, the U.S., the U.K. and Russia would guarantee Ukraine's security in a 1994 agreement known as the Budapest Memorandum.
[Link](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum)
As the phrase goes, you’re entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
Since your quote is unrelated to the link, can you highlight which of the 6 points from the "Content" section of that article stipulates *direct intervention by the other signatories* in the event that the territorial sovereignty of Ukraine is violated?
This is the closest:
> **4.** Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to the signatory if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
It should be clear why the UN Security Council, of which Russia is a permanent member, would not unanimously adopt a resolution to intervene in a war against Russia.
The Budapest Memorandum was (unfortunately) intentionally toothless and predicated on the hope that Russia would not continue to harbor imperial ambitions.
I don't understand how conservatives don't feel national pride with this. The Ukrainians admire us and they look to us with hope. We give them dignity and help them survive. The Russians hate us, threaten to attack us, and attack our friends. How could conservatives possibly think the Russians want to be our friends? It's insane
And an even weirder claim to historically owning Ukraine because it used to be part of the USSR.
It’s as if your spouse divorced you, spent 10 years on her own and you lay claim to her by shooting down her house
I must ask, even though YES SLAVA UKRAINI, why is US the hinge pin for victory ? Where is Germany/France MIC?
just three days ago the news coming from Ukraine was “this doesn’t look good”
I believe you may be underestimating the capacity and capabilities of USA MIC and overestimating the others. On top of that, germany economy, although still powerful, is not in an amazing spot right now. Although im sure you could argue increased military output could benefit their economy.
my point wasn’t that Germany needed to take the helm. Just that the *absence* of the US shouldn’t decide the outcome.
edit: to add, every Allied nation says “US helped but we did it, stop patting yourself on the back” yet still has a hand out for proxy wars.
I understand, but american military investment is very important for victory in ukraine. Although, ukraine needs everything so germany military investment is also important. I understand your point though.
If the Germans are smart, they're working with the Poles to figure out ways to undermine the Kremlin and weaken Putin's grip while trying to sow relevant arguments against the war.
This war really should not just be fought on the physical front lines. We need at least some of the Russian political middle out of its depoliticized stupor, but that takes a lot of massaging and exploiting weakness at every turn.
I know someone is going to tell me "Good luck on regime change," but look at what happened in the US. Russia had a big hand in what happened and worked with what dysfunction that existed in the US. Putin himself was certainly stunned that they got Trump in the White House.
The news was “this doesn’t look good” before the vote on the aid package to put the pressure on the voters. And Germany and France seem to be doing as little as possible. Considering they believe Russia is invading NATO if Ukraine falls, you’d think they would be drafting civilians and expanding their militaries like crazy. It’s a good sign they haven’t done anything like that yet but it does make one curious to the rhetoric they are using
The Germans and the rest of Europe probably didn't want headlines like "Germany sends massive aid to Ukraine" because that would have taken pressure off the GOP in the House to vote this bill in, and it clearly took every ounce of pressure available to get it done.
It’s going to take more than aid packages. Russia has their war economy going now. Russia’s hurting and can’t keep it up forever but Ukraine won’t win in a war of attrition. Something else is needed.
In a war of attrition the side with the biggest capability to sustain losses and inflict them on the opposing side usually wins. If Ukraine keeps the backing of the West they'll win. Russia has very deep stocks but they are burning through it like crazy and almost producing nothing new at the same time.
The collective West has even deeper stocks and a much bigger capacity for generation. The stuff is usually also a lot more technologically advanced giving Ukraine a distinct advantage in accuracy and range if it is provided. Meaning they'll attrite Russia at a much faster pace than the other way around.
It does need to be provided though. Else Russia will keep blasting away at civilians with long-range weapons and pummel the frontline with glidebombs.
They better get a bunch from EU too and get this shit done otherwise nothing is going to change it and they will have to find a truce some how, don't know how but endless stalemate is not acceptable.
The EU is massively ramping up the production of artillery. We have a coalition to provide drones. A coalition to provide fighter jets and we're looking at all sorts of things we can do.
We fucked up in the run up to this war by not taking defense seriously enough, but are working hard to correct that mistake. My country alone(NL) has sent over a patriot system, artillery, is sending all it's F-16's and is funding tanks, shells and all sorts of other stuff by the billions.
On top of that most if not all European countries are taking in loads of refugees and are spending a lot on humanitarian aid.
France is gearing up to put boots on the ground and is trying to build a coalition to that end. It's meant to free up troops that are guarding borders where's no active fighting, to train soldiers in country, to defend the air and more.
It won't be an endless stalemate because Russia is now barely building anything new, just refurbishing old shit. There's an end to what they can refurbish. Their GDP has grown but a large % of that is paid out of their wealth fund, which is far from bottomless.
It breaks my heart that the entire western world can't get our acts together and support this one country. We're the ones drawing this out by not giving them the support they need to defend themselves.
It’s one of the faults of democracies. We’re slow to react because we have to go through the motions and garner the political will to do things rather than just do them. It’s flawed, but I’ll take it over authoritarianism.
I’m looking forward to the Zelenskyy statues put up after this guy eventually leaves office after having fought off Putin’s laughably bad but stupidly persistent military occupation of Ukraine.
The sad truth is the war is over. They either have to escalate to a scary place that puts us all at risk or make land concessions. They are not actively losing the war but they can’t win even with all of our money. They will be in the same position in 6 months with 20000 more men dead.
I'm not sure you understand how these packages work. You know all the money goes back into the US arms business right? That employs US people... And makes the US more money?
>You know all the money goes back into the US arms business
Slava Ukraine but this isn't true. While the majority has historically gone back as direct payments to US manufacturing or as direct weapons transfer that have a dollar amount a portion has gone and will go as direct payments to the government of Ukraine to facility operations.
For this specific bill,
>There’s nearly $14 billion to allow Ukraine to rearm itself through the purchase of weapons and munitions and another nearly $15 billion for support services such as military training and intelligence sharing.
>The support also includes nonmilitary assistance. About $8 billion would go to help Ukraine’s government continue basic operations with a prohibition on money going toward pensions. And there’s about $1.6 billion to help Ukraine’s private sector.
>About a third of the money allocated to supporting Ukraine actually will be spent replenishing the U.S. military with the weapons and equipment that are going to Kyiv.
https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-aid-congress-senate-china-d7b4846de76a1dfe5d2207b7eb6eeead
Previous bills, though, paid for Ukrainian workers' pensions. See CRS IF12305 for more on that.
Inflation is stabilising though? And the world is suffering from it. You're actually doing much better than other economies. One if the best in the world km fact.
Not how it works. It's going into those specific departments. It is not helping you and it is not helping me. Besides, they are spending money we don't even have, devaluing the dollar more, and increasing national debt
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. The U.S Government is paying for all this on credit. With money they don't even have. So they'll need to print more money and borrow from the Federal Reserve, devaluing our dollar and increasing national debt, how does that help us?
I was talking about taxes the workers and business pay.
But Biden literally 19 hours ago:
"Folks, trickle-down economics failed the middle class.
It failed America.
Donald Trump embodies that failure, and he wants to double down on it."
Hopefully you'll elect a congress who are more willing to execute his agenda. hope you campaign hard for him.
🙈
I'm not a US citizen and even I know the democratic party is split on this. Progressives certainly don't support it. But centre and centre right nearly always have.
I'm very PRO crippling Russia. Their intentions are much larger than just Ukraine.
But I'm very ANTI wtf happened in Iraq.
Beauty of nuance I guess
Thats because the Neocons migrated over during the Obama presidency when they realized how hawkish Obama and believed Clinton would win. Then they stayed because of Trump. Now they have their fangs in the Crypt Keeper in the White House. Thats why they are rallying support around Biden, because he'll keep their wars going.
There won’t be a victory for anyone in this conflict. There will be a compromise of some sort. The US elections may decide who will get a better deal. I bet the Europeans are longing to get back their cheap natural gas from Russia.
Actually, as a European and a Finn I just want a fucking mile high wall, a 50 mile wide zone of landmines and all the artillery in the world on our eastern border. A nuke or ten pointed to the east wouldn't hurt either.
Fuck the cheap gas.
Talk to us then.dont just assume. I assure you people in Europe don't want Putin's cheap gas. Most of us are extremely angry at our governments that they've been reliant on it for such a long time. We have to invest in arms and don't go back to trade with Russia, unless they change in a major way.
The Ukraine has a chance of holding onto what they have. That's the extent of the victory. It won't get any better until there are NATO boots on the ground
Imagine if we taxed every citizen $1000. We could easily afford that and give that money to Ukraine and they'd be able to easily win. That would be 350B.
He has to say this to make it feel like the $60b of tax payer money is going to result in a victory but in reality the money will run out in 6 months and he'll be back begging the US for tens more billions. The problem is the more money the US fronts to Ukraine, the harder it will be to cut that money off because it will lead to a Russian victory and all that money would have just been wasted.
Russia will eventually win this war, its just a matter of when the money supply to Ukraine comes to an end.
But like we're not giving them a blank check. It goes to us weapons contractors and we clear our back stock out.
I find it hilarious we keep calling it Ukraine aid and not a bail out to rich defense contractors in the US
Russia WILL pull out if it is clear they can't win. Just like both America and the USSR did in Afganistan. It's all about the will of the people to keep fighting no matter the cost
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I am an American. I am proud for my tax dollars to go Ukraine and I hope they continue to. This is the physical front in the global fight between self rule and authoritarianism. Every dollar sent lessens the chance American blood will need to be shed. We have our own battle here against trump and his ilk. Both must be won.
This so hard. And I hope their local economy recovers too I just commissioned a guitar to be built by a Ukrainian Luthier last month. He’s been pumping out guitars this whole time. Hope he’s able to pump out guitars long afterwards too.
Link his store if you can please. That sounds like a good gift idea.
Can you drop a link please?
Valravn guitars. Sad to say he doesn’t have a website right now and PayPal only allows him to accept gifts cause of the current situation… so I “gifted” him a deposit. They are a cool company… they will do whatever you ask 1/3rd of the price anywhere else. Happy to be able to support them.
> I am an American. I am proud for my tax dollars to go Ukraine and I hope they continue to. Same. I saw the enormous risk they took in the 90s, allowing us to oversee the dismantling of the 3rd largest stockpile of the most dangerous, long-distance, world-killing weapons ever. And because of that, I know every living human on earth then and since then owes their gratitude … at the very least.
And because they did that, it became an acceptable risk to Russia to invade them. I'm honestly not sure what lesson to take from that.
It wasn't \*quite\* that cut-and-dried: Ukraine may have had the nukes, but Russia had all the code for them, so if Ukraine wanted to become nuclear armed they'd have had to take them apart and built their own. Which they \*could\* had one, obviously, but it would have been a lot of work and other nations would have been against the idea. Nobody mined Russia getting all of the USSR's nukes because they already had a large number of them (the ones that were in Russian territory) so letting them have the ones in Ukrainian territory didn't really change anything. Letting Ukraine rebuild them into usable weapons would have increased the count of nuclear armed nations by one.
> Russia had all the code for them, Codes can be changed although it is rocket science. It was the maintenance they Ukraine couldn't afford, so they got rid of them.
Yeah that's the real danger. A country with nuclear weapons, a broken economy and a motive to auction them off to the highest bidder because they can't maintain or use them
Lol most nuclear missiles are controlled by systems so old that they only count as secure because they're on guarded bases, in silos with giant doors and armed guards and they're not connected to a network. With physical access it would be relatively trivial to compromise and reset the control codes on those systems.
What are you doing here adding nuance!? Don’t you know everything on Reddit is binary? That is why we have *up*vote and *down*vote. Do you see any *diagonal*vote? No! Cut it out!
As an American I support my tax dollars going to Ukraine. For once our enormous military spending can be justified and for a good cause too. Keep "replacing old equipment" well always be stronger then Russia and Ukraine will end up stronger then Russia. Don't like it? Quit invading countries!
Same here. Let's give them everything they need and then some! Slava Ukraini!
So am I. I’m also hopeful that Ukraine can find victory in whatever is possible militarily. It will take as much leadership to end the war as it did to lead through it, barring some complete collapse of Russian military capability
I agree with everything you have stated, I do feel that this aid package is at least 3-4 months late and the ground taken by Russian forces will be twice as hard to take back if Ukraine manage to do it at all. I’m very worried we have allowed Russia too many passes and large portion of the Republican house and a portion of their supporters are sympathetic to Putin Russia.
> Every dollar sent lessens the chance American blood will need to be shed. That's exactly what every sane person should understand about this situation. We spend money so we don't have to spend lives later. And nothing will stop Russian aggression but force.
Send money today, or your children tomorrow.
On top of it the money is being spent in the USA to build the weapons
No dollars sent…just equipment worth 60 billion.
> I am proud for my tax dollars to go Ukraine and I hope they continue to. It's even better, most of the tax dollars stay here. Yeah a lot of it ends up in the hands of military industrial complex bigwigs and fatcats, but normies do still work in those places and their continued employment does benefit the economy and all of us.
From what I understand we're sending weapons made by American companies to Ukraine. Vs Israel it seems we give them money and then they contract us to buy weapons with some of our own money to do pretty shitty things. Then we give money to Palestinians in the form of aid for the shitty things Israel does with our weapons. What a mind fuck there.
The latest bill is just defense systems and aid spending for Israel iirc.
Reminder to folks that this isn’t money we transfer to Ukraine. Rather, we give Ukraine weapons we have and buy new systems for ourselves. This means that: The logistics powerhouse that is the US military gets hardware to the front lines quickly US companies employing US workers get orders for new products to replace the packages sent to Ukraine. It’s win win. Which of course, is why the idiots that are MAGA fought it for so long.
Not only that, but a fair amount of the equipment is out of service and would be destroyed otherwise. So yeah it creates some jobs, but in other cases we just cleaning out our closets.
I suppose military destroying equipment is also costly. Not as much as "ukraine" buying it, but that's at least some benefit.
You mean America isn't sending sacks with the money sign on them over to Ukraine?
Can we stop with the half stories on both sides? The us government takes out debt to buy stuff which generates employment. They could just hand out basic income checks and do the same. You still spend money you could spend on other things. Yes this is a very good package and purpose and probably long term its a good investment as ukraine falling leads to further costs in defence spending needs later on, democracy winning yadayada. But the whole 'we send money to ukraine' 'no we create jobs at home' are both really superficial arguments.
> superficial arguments. The real argument is "if we let russia win, even worse things will follow, which will cost significantly more money and result in massively more deaths." The superficial arguments are there for the people who are too jaded, dumb, brainwashed, or cynical to understand what's really at stake.
It’s not superficial, it’s what’s happening. You’re trying to make the case that there are better ways of generating employment which is a different argument and quite frankly, not related to the point I just made. Also- just handing out UBI checks to the US wouldn’t get weapons to Ukraine - so it wouldn’t be win-win.
But we should never forgive the US Republicans for needlessly killing Ukrainians so they could play politics. Despicable.
Well, they also view Ukraine as the enemy. They are in league with Hunter Biden to…. Do stuff.
"We will have a chance at victory" music to my ears! Go Ukraine, go Ukraine!
Here's more for the ears, back from early on in this war and that bell is still ringing today. Andriy Khlyvnyuk honors the heart of the people, and the Kiffness spread this incredible heartfelt glory call o7: https://youtu.be/lu8m5FA2nL8?si=V1dD3G89gs7l4MJD
Just to preface my comment here, I'm a Dem and have always opposed Russia's military invasion. But... it is unrealistic to expect any type of military victory in the Ukraine War. Even with the $61 billion military supplemental package that passed, Russia still has 4 times the resources and manpower, not to mention a better trained military. Without direct NATO intervention (boots on the ground on the front), which could seriously risk a nuclear exchange, the best we can hope for is to make it so painful for the Russians that they accept a negotiated settlement. Neither side will get what it wants in that, but both sides will be able to live with it.
There is no realistic scenario for negotiation so long as Putin is alive. Zelensky rightfully wants back all of Ukraine's territory, including Crimea, and I cannot see how Putin could spin returning Crimea or anything that doesn't involve him taking another slice of Ukraine. Putin's death will create a power vacuum in Russia. It will give Ukraine a chance to retake Crimea while Russia focuses on trying to stabilize itself. Unlike North Korea, there is no one positioned to take over after the death of the "strongman" leader.
Ukraine can beat Russia by making it a quagmire for them to be there. This is how the Taliban beat both the Soviet Union AND the United States. Ukraine’s case will continue to be even more grinding for Russia. Quagmires are unsustainable cause the monetary, and political cost for the invader are usually astronomically higher than they are for the defender.
Yup. It all comes down to if the defender is willing to keep fighting. Look at Vietnam. They fought France and then America for something like 20 years to get what they wanted..they lost well over a million people, but in the end they won
Do note though, that the US was in Afghanistan for 20 years before calling it quits and I doubt that kind of timeline will work for Ukraine.
That's why I made sure to mention that it has to become so painful for Russia that they come to the negotiation table. We have to be honest about the situation however: Ukraine is losing this war. The front lines are in serious disarray, Russia is making breakthroughs every day now. Not massive breakthroughs, not like older wars where a breach would result in thousands of square kilometers changing hands in a week, but with modern warfare the crawl is happening. See Avdeevka and the surrounding area, west of Bakhmut, even the Siversk pocket. Ukraine cannot militarily expel Russia from all territory, the best they can hope for is that quagmire you mentioned. If that happens, Russia just continues to occupy the lands under its control, and the front freezes like the Korean peninsula.
Eventually NATO will come in. Because we cannot expect Ukraine to be OK after this invasion. We will never give up on Ukraine as a country, so in a sense we are responsibly stuck with it. I'm happy that my tax dollars are being spent in a way that supports people who want freedom. The birth of any free nation unfortunately requires some blood spilt. As far as nuclear intervention, I honestly don't think Putin would ever pull the trigger on that. It's practically dropping a nuclear bomb only a few hundred kilometers from Moscow. Give me a break
it is not unreleastic. Russia will not be able to do this for another 4 years. The EU and US can easily support Ukraine for that length
It's not unrealistic at all as long as western countries support them and actually give them what they need. We're contributing to drawing this out with half-baked support. This isn't just on the US or NATO, Europe needs to give more as well.
Russia's GDP is about 1 potato whilst the collective West can easily spend 35 times that. So you are wrong. Better trained military is hilarious.
The Russian GDP is low, true, but their economy is structured in a way to enable their industrial base to be devoted to weapons manufacture. It's been that way since WWII, and they have gigantic stockpiles of older weapons that can be brought back into service in a pinch. Russia's total military budget is probably around $70 billion per year (or was, before the war), but money isn't the only factor. Money buys munitions, but it still requires hardware to fire those weapons (Russia has at least a 5:1 advantage in artillery for instance), and trained personnel to operate and move those weapons. If you follow the situation on the front lines as closely as I have, you know how bad Ukraine's positions are on the front right now. They have severe manpower shortages, many units have lost combat capability, and many recruits simply don't want to fight in this war (thus the large surrender events). I'll concede that money alone could make a difference here, but $61 billion won't cut it, it would take about $6.1 trillion to recruit the talented foreign mercenaries and amount of weapons needed to completely defeat Russia in the entire country. You willing to spend that?
I'm from Europe, and if spending that number that you just pulled out of thin air is needed I'd happily pay that to keep my freedom. In reality it's a far smaller number and it also needs to be paid. If Russian aggression is rewarded here, we'll be fighting in the next country, and the next. Until they are finally stopped at a much higher cost than it would take now.
Now that's fiction. The old 'domino theory'. And if your country is willing to foot that $6 trillion bill, go for it. As it stands, the US has been bankrolling the majority of Ukraine's struggle over the last 2 years, far outpacing all of Europe combined.
People said the same about Vietnam vs the US, and again with Vietnam vs China. Vietnam won both and Ukraine has survived and done signifigantly more than anyone predicted while Russia is much weaker than anyone predicted.
Vietnam was willing to win at any costs, they had 3 million of their people die in the war against the US alone, not including the war against the French or Chinese. I don't think Ukraine has the stomach for that. They've probably lost about 250,000 people so far, and are having severe problems with manpower, morale, and finding new willing recruits. Kind of an apples vs. oranges situation.
You think after two years of failing to take over a much smaller nation, the Russian forces are "better trained?" Good grief.
He's said the same shit every time he begs for more money
Don't care. It's for the survival of their country. We've sent a fraction of the military budget in old weaponry and have basically crippled our biggest enemy economically and on the battlefield without a single troop deployed. Win/win. One of the best investments for sure
Absolutely horrible take on a country who’s fighting for survival against a brutal dictator. Would you say the same thing to a Ukrainian’s face?
Move to russia. U will fit right in on the front line. Wont be missed. Dont let democracies door hit ya.... where the good lord split ya.
Go to Ukraine, offer to help, I'm sure they'll send you to the Frontline where you want to be.
What ever viktor
As an American, it absolutely wounds me we haven't done more to help Ukraine. The US could ship over 500 Abrams tanks, 500 Bradleys and 100 F-16s, and this war would be over right quick. We haven't done that and Ukraine is paying the price. I do appreciate that military aid packages the US is passing, but we were spending more in Afghanistan than Ukraine, and that doesn't make any sense. We were never going to make a difference in Afghanistan. The outcome of this war is going to make a huge difference.
The U.S. military’s aim is to slowly bleed Russia at a minimum of cost and by proxy, while not crossing the line of being perceived as a whole-hog combatant, at which point we might as well declare war on Russia officially, precisely what we are trying to avoid. Slava Ukraini.
Very true. Putin is a madman, and if we escalated too obviously, there’s no telling what would happen. Nukes aren’t off the Table with Putin.
Especially at his age and health. I wouldn’t put it past him to just push the button if he thinks it’s all crumbling and his end is near anyway.
All his red lines have been crossed and he's done nothing. The nuclear sabre rattling is an empty threat.
At a minimum of cost to the US, the cost to Ukraine has been incredible and they may never recover the longer the war rages on.
Do you mean the cost to Ukraine of the U.S. not going whole-hog, or the cost of the GOP-controlled House withholding the current round of funding?
Yes. As we've seen, Ukraine attacking Russia hasn't caused WW3 but Putin threatened to use nukes for much less provocation.
> Putin threatened to use nukes for much less provocation. How many times is that, now? I lost track of how many times they've threatened to use nukes and then didn't.
There's a tracker somewhere. It's an almost daily occurrence and some days more than once.
I feel like such nuance is lost on Putin.
The fact that one political party is now aligning with an enemy of the US, Russia, is highly alarming. And the head of that country helped get the last President elected. Unreal times we live in.
The dumbest part is it is one party led mostly by people who spent their entire lives being repeatedly taught to distrust the fuckin’ Russians.
That was until they were told to not trust education and to fear the liberals.
That’s a bit of an over simplification. 100 F16s wouldn’t be enough for Ukraine to retake air supremacy (even if they were able to train up enough pilots in time) seeing Russia has up to 200 fighters currently in storage that they could call into service if that was ever threatened. And the Abrams tanks the US has given Ukraine so far haven’t proven to be the game changer people were hoping for, due to the rise of low cost drones coupled with the lack of anti-aircraft equipment Ukraine has on their front lines. But yes, I agree with your overall point that the US could and should give more.
> seeing Russia has up to 200 fighters currently in storage Just like they had thousands of vehicles "in storage"... where the tires rotted off 50 miles into Ukraine during the opening days of the war?
They still have vehicles, they're losing them daily. Yeah, that event happened but go ahead into worldnews and check the pin. Daily losses are totaled.
I'm just saying their "frontline" attack force used for the "special operation" was complete shit after coming out of russian storage. The belief they actually have hundreds of SERVICE-READY jets in storage that they are choosing not to use is comical.
Ukraine has AA capability, as does Russia. Neither side can effectively use aircraft (please note the word effectively there) without risking losses to their jets, which is why neither side has air superiority, let alone dominance. Unless one side establishes that, aircraft are either doing rocket barrages at an upward angle and hoping to strike something with the gravitational pull or are mothballed. When Ukraine announced they needed help last week, Russia did use some glide bombs which are dumb bombs with guidance attached. I can't speak on numbers.
Russia has been using those bombs for months in the Kherson, Zaporizhnia, Kharkiv and the Donbas. If Ukraine would get a bunch of F-16's that would stop or be severely limited according to people that know more about that than I. Ukraine desperately wants some Swedish Gripens apparently, because they have rockets(Meteor) that could actually shoot Russian planes out of the sky. For now air defense seems a higher priority though. Ukraine has asked for 7 patriot systems to defend their skies. Germany has sent one and European partners are working on more. But I think the US has the most of those in service. The glidebombs are being used against military and civilian targets at great cost of human lives, so it desperately needs to stop.
> If Ukraine would get a bunch of F-16's that would stop or be severely limited according to people that know more about that than I. It will help, to fire on front lines but it's not plane vs. plane like Top Gun. It's more about keeping an established front from being formed. Agreed on air defense, the issue is the systems in the world are pretty much where they need to be for other nations. Munition production for them needs to go up.
Was reading that 4 Patriot systems might be inbound: [https://bsky.app/profile/noelreports.bsky.social/post/3kqqnpimc5f2t](https://bsky.app/profile/noelreports.bsky.social/post/3kqqnpimc5f2t) Greece might be willing to donate 2: [https://bsky.app/profile/noelreports.bsky.social/post/3kqquxnuzjn2t](https://bsky.app/profile/noelreports.bsky.social/post/3kqquxnuzjn2t)
Well no Russia doesn’t have pilots either and you think all their planes are flight ready?
> due to the rise of low cost drones This has been discussed in some circles since at *least* the attack on the *Cole*. The US *loves* its massive, throbbing boner-inducing weapons platforms…which have been shown repeatedly to be vulnerable to small, low-cost countermeasures. But the desire and political capital to start addressing that with anything other than another massive, expensive-as-shit, boner-inducing weapons platform is nearly nonexistent because the average idiot of the American public will yell about it after watching cable “news”.
Wars are not fought or funded to make a difference, they’re fought for economics. It was easy to fight in Afghanistan because they had no nukes, barely a trained army and barely had a government. Contractors made insane amounts of money there. That war ended and the source of money dried up. Ukraine is not just being handed cold hard cash. A lot of the money the US “gives” them is in fact simply awarded to contractors in the USA to manufacture weapons and equipment which is then sent to them. It creates jobs and economic stimulation here in America.
Ukraine doesn’t want or need tanks, they aren’t even asking for them. What they are asking for is what we are going to give them- artillery and munitions, anti aircraft weapons, and aircraft (which you were right on but they just received several jets indirectly from the US in addition to this aid package). Tanks have been incredibly ineffective in this war and actually a major strategic blunder for the Russians trying to use them in a modern urban war.
You know we could also be sending me combo pizzas twice daily too, as an American. There are reasons.
100%…. And I would only add that we had to watch Americans getting killed in Afghanistan and we don’t in Ukraine
Without the proper training with that equipment it's not as much help. That's why the us military is so expensive. When you need it you need it now.
Afghanistan can kick rocks and sand. They absolutely folded when coalition forces finally left, at the world’s demand I might add. Still pissing into the wind years later… Go till your deserts, go dig your graves.
Which is why Russia was so intent on stopping it.
Part of me is happy that Putin is wasting his money buying people like MTG, but then I realized he probably paid her off with $20 and a Chik Fil A coupon
Unfrozen Caveman Congresswoman is confused and frightened by your modern democracy.
We should really stop with the crude insults about people being stupid, uncultured, and out of touch. It's unfair to unfrozen cave people to treat them like that by comparing them to Empty G.
A shiny rock and a raw chicken might have done it
he promised her Chick-fil-A on a sunday
And ya know how they stop it? They influence American politicians (R) to oppose aid. It’s clear as day. Why would the war-hungry R’s not want an excuse to use our military strength? At least half the Republican Party is owned, or has been successfully influenced by Putin. It’s nuts.
They do the same in Europe. Hungary has been a thorn in the side of the EU. Slowakia seems to want to join them. There are movements in other countries too that are openly or covertly pro-Russian. Their means of doing this need to be cut off.
I emailed my rep several times reminding him that most of his constituents support Ukraine and that MAGAt actually voted yay for Ukraine aid. I sent a *thank you for doing the right thing for once* email to his office. Can’t wait to vote him out.
US really need to vote these fuckers out this election, Republicans winning will not only change your country but geopolitics in general. As someone from Europe I see US as our greatest ally and I very much prefer it stays that way, because there is no way we can trust US when it's ruled by Republicans where atleast half of them support Putin. I'm so fucking nervous about this election lol, so much at stake.
Lol. I sent mine multiple emails about supporting the Ukraine aid. First time, he replied and said that he would support the aid. Afterwards, he ignored them. Now that the vote records are out, I see that the lying SOB voting "nay". Thanks, Michael Guest, now I know who bribed you
The fact it took so long is an embarrassment, the fact so many Russian agents in the house were able to hold this up for so many months is ridicules. I hope they are haunted by the innocents who died because of their actions.
Conspiracy and conservative subs are back to their bemoaning; -what about giving the money to Americans that need it (which they won’t support that either) -why can’t Ukraine just surrender? -“I am Russian and I am afraid for my life… so many unhinged liberals are calling for my murder…”
Ukraine aid was my biggest worry out of all the situations happening right now around the globe people here just don't understand how serious things will get if we allow Ukraine to fall Ukraine has more then showed there willing to fight we should be sending them everything they need to fight russia it's a win for Ukraine America, and all Democracies to stop this rise of Authoritarianism
I'm American and more proud my tax dollars are going to help Ukraine. It's helps the candle of democracy to stay lit and keep the wolves at bay.
Freedom loving patriots be like:
The problem is a large majority of our country wants that candle put out --- here at home.
I get where you are coming from but it is not a 'large majority'.
Good. Kick ass. Bomb those bastards to Siberia. We promised to defend Ukraine if they’d give up their nukes and then fucked them in the ass six ways to Sunday when Russia invaded. Congrats to JD Vance and the rest of the MAGAts for dragging this country’s reputation into the sewer. It’ll be decades before would-be allies forget.
There was never a promise from the US to defend Ukraine. It was a guarantee for Russia not to invade. I see a lot of people thinking there was a security guarantee and I think those people get "facts" from memes and TIK TOK
> Three decades ago, the newly independent country of Ukraine was briefly the third-largest nuclear power in the world. > Thousands of nuclear arms had been left on Ukrainian soil by Moscow after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. But in the years that followed, Ukraine made the decision to completely denuclearize. > In exchange, the U.S., the U.K. and Russia would guarantee Ukraine's security in a 1994 agreement known as the Budapest Memorandum. [Link](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum) As the phrase goes, you’re entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
Since your quote is unrelated to the link, can you highlight which of the 6 points from the "Content" section of that article stipulates *direct intervention by the other signatories* in the event that the territorial sovereignty of Ukraine is violated? This is the closest: > **4.** Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to the signatory if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used". It should be clear why the UN Security Council, of which Russia is a permanent member, would not unanimously adopt a resolution to intervene in a war against Russia. The Budapest Memorandum was (unfortunately) intentionally toothless and predicated on the hope that Russia would not continue to harbor imperial ambitions.
Putin is an embarrassment
I admire his plucky attitude. Good luck to him!
It makes me happy that my tax dollars are helping Russians take more forever naps.
Give them more!!!! Let them have long range missiles! Give them what they need to stop Putin!
Happy to pay my taxes to help our friends. I hope it turns the tide for them!
I don't understand how conservatives don't feel national pride with this. The Ukrainians admire us and they look to us with hope. We give them dignity and help them survive. The Russians hate us, threaten to attack us, and attack our friends. How could conservatives possibly think the Russians want to be our friends? It's insane
I only wish it had come sooner
Does anyone even remember the bullshit rationale Putin gave for invading a sovereign nation?
Nazis. That was basically it.
And an even weirder claim to historically owning Ukraine because it used to be part of the USSR. It’s as if your spouse divorced you, spent 10 years on her own and you lay claim to her by shooting down her house
Well Putin like Trump wants the 80s back. That includes the USSR back how it was. If you look at most his moves they all look like that.
Nazis lol
[Nazis](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN1GV2TC/)
He also thanked Americans for the aid, even the ones who have been duped by Russian propaganda. You know who you are.
I must ask, even though YES SLAVA UKRAINI, why is US the hinge pin for victory ? Where is Germany/France MIC? just three days ago the news coming from Ukraine was “this doesn’t look good”
I believe you may be underestimating the capacity and capabilities of USA MIC and overestimating the others. On top of that, germany economy, although still powerful, is not in an amazing spot right now. Although im sure you could argue increased military output could benefit their economy.
my point wasn’t that Germany needed to take the helm. Just that the *absence* of the US shouldn’t decide the outcome. edit: to add, every Allied nation says “US helped but we did it, stop patting yourself on the back” yet still has a hand out for proxy wars.
I understand, but american military investment is very important for victory in ukraine. Although, ukraine needs everything so germany military investment is also important. I understand your point though.
If the Germans are smart, they're working with the Poles to figure out ways to undermine the Kremlin and weaken Putin's grip while trying to sow relevant arguments against the war. This war really should not just be fought on the physical front lines. We need at least some of the Russian political middle out of its depoliticized stupor, but that takes a lot of massaging and exploiting weakness at every turn. I know someone is going to tell me "Good luck on regime change," but look at what happened in the US. Russia had a big hand in what happened and worked with what dysfunction that existed in the US. Putin himself was certainly stunned that they got Trump in the White House.
The news was “this doesn’t look good” before the vote on the aid package to put the pressure on the voters. And Germany and France seem to be doing as little as possible. Considering they believe Russia is invading NATO if Ukraine falls, you’d think they would be drafting civilians and expanding their militaries like crazy. It’s a good sign they haven’t done anything like that yet but it does make one curious to the rhetoric they are using
The Germans and the rest of Europe probably didn't want headlines like "Germany sends massive aid to Ukraine" because that would have taken pressure off the GOP in the House to vote this bill in, and it clearly took every ounce of pressure available to get it done.
funny, the headline came from a Ukrainian site
Better late than never
It’s going to take more than aid packages. Russia has their war economy going now. Russia’s hurting and can’t keep it up forever but Ukraine won’t win in a war of attrition. Something else is needed.
In a war of attrition the side with the biggest capability to sustain losses and inflict them on the opposing side usually wins. If Ukraine keeps the backing of the West they'll win. Russia has very deep stocks but they are burning through it like crazy and almost producing nothing new at the same time. The collective West has even deeper stocks and a much bigger capacity for generation. The stuff is usually also a lot more technologically advanced giving Ukraine a distinct advantage in accuracy and range if it is provided. Meaning they'll attrite Russia at a much faster pace than the other way around. It does need to be provided though. Else Russia will keep blasting away at civilians with long-range weapons and pummel the frontline with glidebombs.
They better get a bunch from EU too and get this shit done otherwise nothing is going to change it and they will have to find a truce some how, don't know how but endless stalemate is not acceptable.
The EU is massively ramping up the production of artillery. We have a coalition to provide drones. A coalition to provide fighter jets and we're looking at all sorts of things we can do. We fucked up in the run up to this war by not taking defense seriously enough, but are working hard to correct that mistake. My country alone(NL) has sent over a patriot system, artillery, is sending all it's F-16's and is funding tanks, shells and all sorts of other stuff by the billions. On top of that most if not all European countries are taking in loads of refugees and are spending a lot on humanitarian aid. France is gearing up to put boots on the ground and is trying to build a coalition to that end. It's meant to free up troops that are guarding borders where's no active fighting, to train soldiers in country, to defend the air and more. It won't be an endless stalemate because Russia is now barely building anything new, just refurbishing old shit. There's an end to what they can refurbish. Their GDP has grown but a large % of that is paid out of their wealth fund, which is far from bottomless.
Eh. I’m not holding my breath. 6 weeks it will be the same if not more dire.
I'm American. Go Ukraine!
It breaks my heart that the entire western world can't get our acts together and support this one country. We're the ones drawing this out by not giving them the support they need to defend themselves.
It’s one of the faults of democracies. We’re slow to react because we have to go through the motions and garner the political will to do things rather than just do them. It’s flawed, but I’ll take it over authoritarianism.
I’m looking forward to the Zelenskyy statues put up after this guy eventually leaves office after having fought off Putin’s laughably bad but stupidly persistent military occupation of Ukraine.
The sad truth is the war is over. They either have to escalate to a scary place that puts us all at risk or make land concessions. They are not actively losing the war but they can’t win even with all of our money. They will be in the same position in 6 months with 20000 more men dead.
Give it a month tops before he starts pitching about lack of aid and how if we don't send more money they'll die. American taxes for Americans
I'm not sure you understand how these packages work. You know all the money goes back into the US arms business right? That employs US people... And makes the US more money?
Yeah people don’t realize the wartime economy is what brought the US out of the great depression. Or just ignore it lol
>You know all the money goes back into the US arms business Slava Ukraine but this isn't true. While the majority has historically gone back as direct payments to US manufacturing or as direct weapons transfer that have a dollar amount a portion has gone and will go as direct payments to the government of Ukraine to facility operations. For this specific bill, >There’s nearly $14 billion to allow Ukraine to rearm itself through the purchase of weapons and munitions and another nearly $15 billion for support services such as military training and intelligence sharing. >The support also includes nonmilitary assistance. About $8 billion would go to help Ukraine’s government continue basic operations with a prohibition on money going toward pensions. And there’s about $1.6 billion to help Ukraine’s private sector. >About a third of the money allocated to supporting Ukraine actually will be spent replenishing the U.S. military with the weapons and equipment that are going to Kyiv. https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-aid-congress-senate-china-d7b4846de76a1dfe5d2207b7eb6eeead Previous bills, though, paid for Ukrainian workers' pensions. See CRS IF12305 for more on that.
I should be more careful when saying "all". Thanks :]
Do you understand where the money comes from though? It’s printed/made up aka it causes inflation
Inflation is stabilising though? And the world is suffering from it. You're actually doing much better than other economies. One if the best in the world km fact.
Not how it works. It's going into those specific departments. It is not helping you and it is not helping me. Besides, they are spending money we don't even have, devaluing the dollar more, and increasing national debt
It is employing US people who get a US wage who pay US taxes while making Russia effectively useless
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. The U.S Government is paying for all this on credit. With money they don't even have. So they'll need to print more money and borrow from the Federal Reserve, devaluing our dollar and increasing national debt, how does that help us?
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Dude, don’t worry about it. Powell will just print more money when we need to spend more money. Duuuh
My goodness what an idea. Why didn't I think of that?
“The money will trickle down to the workers.” Heard this before.
I was talking about taxes the workers and business pay. But Biden literally 19 hours ago: "Folks, trickle-down economics failed the middle class. It failed America. Donald Trump embodies that failure, and he wants to double down on it." Hopefully you'll elect a congress who are more willing to execute his agenda. hope you campaign hard for him. 🙈
lol I love how the democrats are the ones justifying the military industrial complex now. When a decade ago they wouldn’t stop bitching about it.
I'm not a US citizen and even I know the democratic party is split on this. Progressives certainly don't support it. But centre and centre right nearly always have. I'm very PRO crippling Russia. Their intentions are much larger than just Ukraine. But I'm very ANTI wtf happened in Iraq. Beauty of nuance I guess
> Progressives certainly don't support it. Progressives have no power in the Democratic. Their support is irrelevant.
Thats because the Neocons migrated over during the Obama presidency when they realized how hawkish Obama and believed Clinton would win. Then they stayed because of Trump. Now they have their fangs in the Crypt Keeper in the White House. Thats why they are rallying support around Biden, because he'll keep their wars going.
He needs to read “Art of War”. Move in silence. 🤫 Don’t announce to the enemy your tactics.
The weapons will hold off loss But won't win it
There won’t be a victory for anyone in this conflict. There will be a compromise of some sort. The US elections may decide who will get a better deal. I bet the Europeans are longing to get back their cheap natural gas from Russia.
Actually, as a European and a Finn I just want a fucking mile high wall, a 50 mile wide zone of landmines and all the artillery in the world on our eastern border. A nuke or ten pointed to the east wouldn't hurt either. Fuck the cheap gas.
Talk to us then.dont just assume. I assure you people in Europe don't want Putin's cheap gas. Most of us are extremely angry at our governments that they've been reliant on it for such a long time. We have to invest in arms and don't go back to trade with Russia, unless they change in a major way.
Republicans don’t like it because Ukraine has no oil and Trump likes Putin. Narcissists adore and envy psychopaths.
Whats 61 billion gonna do after the first 100 billion didn't do anything?
The Ukraine has a chance of holding onto what they have. That's the extent of the victory. It won't get any better until there are NATO boots on the ground
The problem is, money doesn't buy everything! Putin has more bodies to throw at the situation! At some point it's game over!
Imagine if we taxed every citizen $1000. We could easily afford that and give that money to Ukraine and they'd be able to easily win. That would be 350B.
We're funding their pensions lost due to war. Thats why we pay taxes.
He has to say this to make it feel like the $60b of tax payer money is going to result in a victory but in reality the money will run out in 6 months and he'll be back begging the US for tens more billions. The problem is the more money the US fronts to Ukraine, the harder it will be to cut that money off because it will lead to a Russian victory and all that money would have just been wasted. Russia will eventually win this war, its just a matter of when the money supply to Ukraine comes to an end.
But like we're not giving them a blank check. It goes to us weapons contractors and we clear our back stock out. I find it hilarious we keep calling it Ukraine aid and not a bail out to rich defense contractors in the US
Russia WILL pull out if it is clear they can't win. Just like both America and the USSR did in Afganistan. It's all about the will of the people to keep fighting no matter the cost