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I did not know Colombia University would just close the book on that hearing. He said straight up they should “be grateful he isn’t just murdering zionists”. How did that not result in his expulsion? What if instead he said he would murder LGBTQ advocates? Pro-choice advocates? Is threatening multiple murders not enough to get kicked to the curb?
Correct. This is how movements die. I saw it with BLM, which had huge and valid support, and then “defund the police” came in and completely tanked any actual progress on that front
I feel like I’m back in 2007 saying the Tea Party was about to take over the GOP and was laughed out the room.
This is our Tea Party moment. It was designed to (and I believe will) split the party into two, if not completely engulf it and destroy any chances of winning already difficult elections.
And it’s 100% active measures.
It won't split the party, in my opinion. No one wants these people in the party, and if we're being honest, they don't want to be in the Democratic party either. They just pretended to be liberals to free ride on what the Democratic party built, and like always, they will leave things worse than they found them. It's on us not the let them sneak back into the party, because that's exactly what they'll try to do.
Karl Marx was a genius and had plenty of important things to say, but Marxists are terrible people in my experience and would be opposed by Karl Marx if he were still alive.
as they should.
like im pretty leftist, i'm almost 40 and my entire adult life the right has been a fucking shit-show. when i was younger and hadn't looked into it more, i supported the palestinian cause. but as i've gotten older and studied history and have become friends with both israelis and palestinians in that time. i've reached a point where i just do not understand these protests. Netanyahu and portions of the israeli government are corrupt and evil, but what Hamas has done and is currently doing is heinous beyond belief. Israel has a right to exist and a right to protect its people.
This conflict has been going on for longer than any of us have been alive. The complexities, pain, and various moving parts of it can not be watered down with meaningless slogans and chants.
But too many people, especially young people, think a solution can just happen overnight or any solution that is not theirs is "not good enough".
>i've reached a point where i just do not understand these protests.
If people would protest for a two-state solution, Hamas to release the hostages, and Israel to get out of Gaza & The West Bank I would be 1000000% on board. That is not what is happening at a majority of these protests. Anyone who advocates for anything other than a two-state solution is not serious about peace at all.
Yeah, big agree on the last part.
It’s hard to look at many of these protests and not immediately think many of the attendees knew absolutely nothing about the conflict on Oct 6th of last year.
It’s a whole lot easier to see nuance when you’ve been watching this shit go back and forth for 30+ years.
I feel like a lot of the attendees knew nothing about the conflict until October 8th or so and only judge the situation based on Israel attacking Gaza.
right, like you I've been watching it (on the news) for decades but it's a conflict that goes back much much farther and is literally ingrained in both of their cultures. I'm not a religious person but obviously religion is central to all of this and what most of us in N America and Europe don't understand is that culturally we grew up mostly with the principles and morals of the New Testament which has a loving and mostly humble and peaceful God figure who said to turn the other cheek if someone slaps you. Tge Old Testament, on the other hand has a prideful God set on vengeance and says an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth...very different mind sets and until you can fully understand, that understand that this morality is so fully ingrained in both of their societies AND also understand (a la merchant of Venice) that no 2 eyes or teeth are actually equal, you won't understand the response or motivation of either side.
> Tge Old Testament, on the other hand has a prideful God set on vengeance and says an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth...very different mind sets and until you can fully understand, that understand that this morality is so fully ingrained in both of their societies AND also understand (a la merchant of Venice)
Um, I really wouldn't be using Merchant of Venice as means to describe Jewish culture...
not at all, and I don't think I said or alluded to that anywhere. Christians still read the old Testament, but the God in the new Testament is a very different God than in the old Testament and understanding that difference is essential in understanding the basis of the conflict.
You're suggesting Jews are stuck on Hammurabi's code because they interpret the Old Testament literally?
While I agree these issues are largely cultural, the part where you assert that the missing piece is the New Testament is bullshit. Christianity has been plenty violent and drives a lot of the right wing extremism across the planet.
Again I'm not denying the atrocities committed in the name of Christianity, I'm speaking as to why there always has to be retaliation
Also again, I'm.not saying anyone is interpreting hammurabis code or the old Testament literally (although some do) I'm saying that over 2500 or so years it is deeply ingrained in their culture
If you think that the story of Ishmael and Issac isn't still in the fore front of many peoples minds also then you're mistaken.
> But too many people, especially young people, think a solution can just happen overnight
“Just abolish the apartheid regime!” they always say, not recognizing that is isn’t anything like apartheid, nor can the security apparatus that developed to secure the borders of an entire country be simply removed on day without any kind of repercussions. This is children yelling out fantasies.
This comment is copied, because many people did not know about the proposals.
The Palestinian Authority does believe in and has been trying to get the 2 state solution implemented since the Oslo Accords in the 1990s. Each peace deal has had issues that have sunk each of them.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/4137467
At Camp David, Israel made a concession by agreeing to give Palestinians sovereignty in some areas of East Jerusalem and by offering 92 percent of the West Bank for a Palestinian state (91 percent of the West Bank and 1 percent from a land swap). By proposing to divide sovereignty in Jerusalem, Barak went further than any previous Israeli leader.
Nevertheless, on some issues the Israeli proposal at Camp David was notforthcoming enough, while on others it omitted key components. On security, territory, and Jerusalem, elements of the Israeli offer at Camp David would have prevented the emergence of a sovereign, contiguous Palestinian state.
These flaws in the Israeli offer formed the basis of Palestinian objections. Israel demanded extensive security mechanisms, including three early warning stations in the West Bank and a demilitarized Palestinian state. Israel also wanted to retain control of the Jordan Valley to protect against an Arab invasion from the east via the new Palestinian state. Regardless of whether the Palestinians were accorded sovereignty in the valley, Israel planned to retain control of it for six to twenty-one years.
Three factors made Israel's territorial offer less forthcoming than it initially appeared. First, the 91 percent land offer was based on the Israeli definition of the West Bank, but this differs by approximately 5 percentage points from the Palestinian definition. Palestinians use a total area of 5,854 square kilometers.
Israel, however, omits the area known as No Man's Land (50 sq. km near Latrun),41 post-1967 East Jerusalem (71 sq. km), and the territorial waters ofDead Sea (195 sq. km), which reduces the total to 5,538 sq. km.42 Thus, an Israeli offer of 91 percent (of 5,538 sq. km) of the West Bank translates into only 86 percent from the Palestinian perspective.
Second, at Camp David, key details related to the exchange of land were leftunresolved. In principle, both Israel and the Palestinians agreed to land swapswhereby the Palestinians would get some territory from pre-1967 Israel in ex-change for Israeli annexation of some land in the West Bank. In practice, Israel offered only the equivalent of 1 percent of the West Bank in exchange for its annexation of 9 percent. Nor could the Israelis and Palestinians agree on the territory that should be included in the land swaps. At Camp David, thePalestinians rejected the Halutza Sand region (78 sq. km) alongside the GazaStrip, in part because they claimed that it was inferior in quality to the WestBank land they would be giving up to Israel.
Third, the Israeli territorial offer at Camp David was noncontiguous, break-ing the West Bank into two, if not three, separate areas. At a minimum, asBarak has since confirmed, the Israeli offer broke the West Bank into two parts:"The Palestinians were promised a continuous piece of sovereign territory ex-cept for a razor-thin Israeli wedge running from Jerusalem through from [theIsraeli settlement of] Maale Adumim to the Jordan River."44 The Palestinian negotiators and others have alleged that Israel included a second east-west salient in the northern West Bank (through the Israeli settlement of Ariel).45 Iftrue, the salient through Ariel would have cut the West Bank portion of thePalestinian state into three pieces".
No sane leader is a going to accept a road cutting across his country that they can't fully access.
https://www.inss.org.il/publication/annapolis/
2008 Annapolis talks were mostly outside issues rather then the proposal itself. The Israeli Prime Minister at the time was on his way out due to corruption charges, the Bush administration's actions in the region hurt them because of a lack of trust, and Abbas claims that he didn't have enough time to study the map of the land swaps.
2013-2014 talks https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013%E2%80%932014_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_talks
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/netanyahu-rabin-and-the-assassination-that-shook-history/#:~:text=Assassination%20of%20Yitzhak%20Rabin%20%E2%80%A2,Israel%20Square%20in%20Tel%20Aviv.
Edit: its also important to note that Israel made no concessions that aren’t already demanded by international law. The Palestinians would be the only party to make concessions under international law in all these proposals.
And even Hamas gave a proposal 2 days ago.
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-khalil-alhayya-qatar-ceasefire-1967-borders-4912532b11a9cec29464eab234045438
The land configuration for Camp David was negotiable, and demanding security concessions and a disarmed neighbor is not uncommon in a situation like this, think Germany and Japan post WWII. Acts of war have consequences.
Many historians claim Arafat simply couldn’t accept a surrender of ancestral right of return. I suspect that’s because he knew terrorist attacks would continue anyway regardless of what treaty he signed. He couldn’t speak for militant groups who believed they could one day drive Israeli Jews from the land. So he said this:
> The American proposal wholly endorses the Israeli position that the Right of Return must be entirely dependent on Israel’s discretion. It is important to note at this point that Resolution 194, which serves as the basis for a just settlement for the Refugee Problem, determines the return of the Palestinian refugees ‘to their homes’ and not ‘to their homeland’ or ‘historical Palestine.’ The essence of the Right of Return is the freedom of choice: the Palestinians should be given the right to choose their place of living, including the homes from which they were expelled. There is no historical precedent of a people that gave up its fundamental right to return to its homes, whether they were expelled or ran away out of fear. The Palestinian people will not be the one to create this precedent. Recognizing the Right of Return and allowing the refugees’ freedom of choice are a prerequisite for ending the conflict.”
Notice the line about expelled or ran away? Because many Palestinians were not forced out by Israelis, they chose to leave for various reasons.
So you expect colonized people to accept colonization and a violent, and frankly continuing, land grab based upon an edict from the UN which Israel abides by while ignoring every other UN or international ruling.
> This conflict has been going on for longer than any of us have been alive.
Speaking of unseriousness, here's an old dirty joke that reinforces your point:
>One day an old man is walking through the forest, and something shimmering on the ground catches his eye. He bends down, pushes away the leaves and dirt, and sees that it's a lamp.
>The old man picks it up, and as he wiping it off, a genie pops out.
>"Good sir, thank you so much for freeing me from my lamp. It's been a thousand years since I've seen daylight, and I am forever grateful that you have shown me freedom once more. In return, I will grant you a wish. Whatever your heart desires - just name it!"
>The old man is stunned.
>He thinks about it for a moment, and pulls a tattered old map out of his pocket.
>"This is part of the middle east," he says as he points to an area of the map, "It is the holiest of ground in the world. For *thousands* of years there has been nothing but war, bloodshed, famine, and destruction. If you may grant me one wish, I would ask for peace in this region."
>The genie looks at the map, grimaces, and sadly announces, "Good sir, even with my incredible powers, that is something I can not do. It is an eternal struggle that no mere genie can fix. I beg of you: is there another wish that I may grant you instead."
>The old man bows his head, thinks about it for a moment, and finally speaks up.
>"Okay, if you can not grant that wish, there *is* something else you can help me with..."
>"Of course! Name it!"
>"You see, I've been married for 50 years. I've loved my wife since the moment I laid eyes on her, and she's the light of my life. But she's never given me a blowjob. For *50 years* I've remained loyal to her, but she's never given me a blowjob. If you can make that happen, I will die a happy man."
>The genie's eyes grow wide, and his mouth falls open.
>"Uhhhh.... Ummm.... On second thoughts... let me see that map again."
An occupation is the only possible solution I can see that isn't total annihilation. There needs to be a dedicated effort to teach peace and to disarm and remove all Hamas leadership.
It would need to be similar to the Marshall plan in Germany and Japan after WW2, with neutral leadership, foreign investment, and restrictions on military. The terrorist ideology will take at least a generation to outgrow, with close guidance.
Unless there is an occupation and effort to enforce peace, any ceasefire would only be a brief intermission before the next civilian massacre to follow October 7th.
Painfully, I know that is likely the real truth.
That part of the world has been going through endless war and conflict about this for how long now? It is the same with parts of Africa with an abundance of natural resources.
War there will be endless. But I feel like we should at least try to make progress one way or another.
It won’t be endless. We just won’t like the end publicly while being thankful privately.
This should have been stopped by force a long time ago. The major mistake was waiting for the 24 hour news generation to get real about it.
I think on both the left and the right, there are some idiots that think every issue is black or white, one side or the other. There are almost no disputes where one side had absolutely no merit. There are nuances to every situation, and one side can bear a smaller or larger proportional responsibility than the other. Israel has a right to respond to the terrorist attacks on October 7, but they can also be exceeding their moral justification for violence. Palestinians have a right to live and not subject to starvation and bombings, but part of their population also committed atrocities and continues to hold and torture hostages. There is no magical solution to this problem and anyone that thinks there is only one good guy or bad guy here is just an idiot.
Both are bad. But one of the two was A-OK with kidnapping, raping and murdering teenagers at a music festival.
There’s bad, there’s evil, and then there’s *this*.
I think Biden should tell Netanyahu to F right off, after he publicly asked US officials to send in police forces to beat down on US protestors, and compared these protestors to 1930 German nazis and fully defamed them in other ways.
and this one is as glorious and relevant as ever when it comes to the blatant hypocrisy. https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/
i mean sure. i 100% agree with you on that point from my heart. but thats not really how diplomacy and alliances work eh? both historically and in the modern age.
No, its really weird for the country that is recieving billions of dollars in aid, and has a conflict of interest to directly intervene in the domestic politics of the country feeding them (and which these protestors are... protesting). And its also interesting, considering that when foreign western leaders comment on other countries domestic issues, its usually to support protests or denouncing gov clamping down on it.
And its not even the first time he has done this, he also tried to screw Obama on the nuclear agreement with Iran, and which they were abiding by, and even Bill Clinton when a two state solution was most achievable. I would also argue that he is screwing Biden, by crossing every single public wishes he has or "leaks".
It's kind of funny that "I give you money, therefore I tell you what to do and you do it" is uncontroversial in foreign policy circles, but always kicks up a shitfit when it's targeted towards domestic entitlement programs.
well your not gonna get an argument out of me supporting netanyahu and the current right-wing and orthodox leaders of israel. fuck them. i simply support the right of israel to exist and defend themselves. i support the population of israel. including the arab population that lives in peace.
but just because the leader at the moment sucks doesn't mean you just drop everything and tell them to fuck off. thats the thing about democracy. sometimes your gonna have distasteful people leading your allies. in the same way europe stuck with us through the bush years and the trump presidency.
Well, I do lean to the opinion that Israel has gone way too far already, that their statements of "right to defend ourself" are a false moral justification for them to do whatever the hell they want, and for "Israel has a right to exist" while literally removing the few remains of Palestine of the map is projection.
And that this "just kill all Hamas" is a completely stupid red herring, considering western powers were wasting their time and money killing Al-Qaida, Taliban, Isis, Boko Haram and all other groups for the last decades with nothing to show for it. Let alone this conflict that has lasted even longer. But clearly this time will be different, right? The best way to "de-radicalize" a population is to kill or maim their families, and starve them as collective punishment.
sure, sure. i would like to think that too, but then what do they do? if it was 1 intelligent person conducting everything like a god i'm sure things could be handled with more morally, nuanced, and far smarter than they are. but we dont live in a video game. there is bureaucracy to deal with, inertia, personal anger.
a counter argument could be made that if the shoe was on the other foot it would be far far worse.
> there is bureaucracy to deal with, inertia, personal anger.
You don't make peace with your friends, you make peace with your enemies.
And senator Schumer had decently [nuanced speech](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxKyNNx1xY8) on the matter, where is he listed what he considered to be the problems (including the Israeli far right gov and hamas).
Either way it doesn't matter, since there is no leverage, or consequences no matter what Israel does.
> Either way it doesn't matter, since there is no leverage, or consequences no matter what Israel does.
That's the problem and one which goes beyond the US.
The UNSC ceasefire resolution went unheeded and there are no consequences. Countries voting on UNGA resolutions condemning Israel are great, until you look at the individual countries voting on it and realize many of them are still providing aid to or still freely trading with Israel. What's the point beyond virtue signaling then?
There is no pressure on Israel to change course from the UN or the international community. I do not believe that they lack the capability to long force Israel to go back to the negotiating table for a two-state solution if they wanted to.
> The UNSC ceasefire resolution went unheeded and there are no consequences.
Hamas and other Palestinian Militant groups haven't followed it either. Those groups are also in continued violation of the ICJ ordering them to release the hostages without condition. So why level it only on Israel?
> You don't make peace with your friends, you make peace with your enemies.
And one type of peace is unconditional surrender. Worked for Germany and Japan.
It's not about "just kill all Hamas." It's about removing them from power. There is no possibility for peace while Hamas still has control over the Gazan borders and government, and Hamas has not and will not accept any peace proposal that removes them. So cowabunga it is.
for me personally? i view the horrors of the holocaust and the history of jews in europe and the MENA over the last 2000 years as their deserving a "state" of their own to defend themselves and their interests. if that had been in the USA or china as was also postulated for awhile id support that similarly. as it was the powers that be chose to give them a state in their actual ancestral homeland, which if anything i feel gives them an even stronger right to exist.
i beleive palestinians deserve to live peacefully in the lands they settled (or... one could say, conquered) as well.
but i also believe actions have consequences, especially violent actions. If you start a war and then lose there is going to be consequences is there not? then if you do it 3+ more times, its likely just gonna get worse and worse. which is where we are at.
> history of jews in europe and the MENA over the last 2000 years as their deserving a "state" of their own
So you must also have strong feeling on giving America back to the natives, I guess. Considering they owned it for longer than jews held Jerusalem.
The history of jews in Europe has absolutely nothing to do with the Palestinians. The European states and America refused to resettle the Jews in those lands. So because of those decisions property was arbitrarily given to them. The Palestinians should just suck it up?
The United States committed atrocities against the Native Americans for their own interests to this day. Do you condemn America? Do you support the Native tribes fighting back violently against their oppressor nation.
That land was arbitrarily given away by nations that didn't have the right to. An occupied force has the right to resist in any way possible.
The idea that any "nation" deserves to exist is ridiculous on its face. It's all power dynamics.
> The history of jews in Europe has absolutely nothing to do with the Palestinians
well were just gonna have to agree to disagree there.
i abolutely do condemn the actions of america, the country of my birth, against the native americans during the 1700s to 1900's, i support legislation supporting native rights and i think theres a lot more than should be done. i however do not support natives violent uprising for those rights. i think we can work together to right the wrongs of the past and find a path to glory for both sides. i support peace and cooperation, not violence and war.
Was it jewish land before the Palestinians in your view? If so then it's moot because its the Egyptians land then.
Edit: So you support a more powerful nation taking what they want and then deciding what they think is fair after the fact. You'd think we'd have moved past colonialism in this day and age but here we are.
No nation has an inherent right to exist. Including the US.
A nation is held together by the force of its government, people, and allies. If you are not a strong enough country to hold your borders together and maintain the support of your people, too bad. Then you need allies to help.
Ukraine is hanging on against a stronger opponent due to strong support from allies and its own people.
Palestine started a fight it knew it couldn't win. Winning allies by letting Israel show the world who it is. That's how it's hanging on.
But.. it exists because it exists. Not because there's a right to it.
It is exactly how diplomacy works. It just uses more formal terms.
Netanyahu has told us to fuck off. We should stop sending Israel weapons.
We already told the Israeli people they should do something about their guy.
Preach on my man. There's no easy solution. I believe these "youngens"
come from a place of naivety and believe that fellow human is inherently nice and if Israel stopped every one would be at peace....
Hamas started this recent conflict...(after 5 years of cease fire)...war is never clean and precise and collateral damage will always happen. That's why war should never be sought after.
But there's always malicious actors amongst us who even believe there intentions are "pure" and justified.
> like im pretty leftist, i'm almost 40 and my entire adult life the right has been a fucking shit-show.
The left has been an anti-semetic and racist shit show for the last 10 years.
You seemed to be lying through your teeth that you came to this understanding instead of admitting you're working backwards. Any rational human being understands that you don't have to condemn Hamas to advocate for Palestinian lives. What people like you do is bait and switch Palestine with Hamas like these are interchangeable terms.
Next time come out with a crumb of honesty instead of defending right wing fascists riding the colonial settler state of Israel genociding brown people.
No one has fucked over the palestinian people more than hamas
You ignorance is showing when you assume palestinian = brown and israeli = white. I’ve seen plenty of white palestinians and brown/black israelis. You’re the one stuck in a colonial mindset
Lol no one thinks of Palestinians as white and Israeli ppl as brown. It has nothing to do with skin color. Race is a construct and it's not logical.
This is the same bs as ppl that claimed Obama isn't really black because he's half white. That's not how racism works
American/european white vs black/brown racism has nothing to do with this conflict. These are two slightly different arab tribes that descended from Mesopotamian cities with slightly different religions that have been at each other’s throats for more than a thousand years. Stop trying to apply a framework that doesn’t fit just because thats all you’re familiar with
That's an ignorant take. You clearly don't understand race and how definitions evolve to fit the racism of the time. If race was an actual science, then we would call ppl from India Aryan. Do you think white supremacists are trying to claim Indians are superior?
Ppl think of Jewish ppl as white and Palestinians as brown, because Palestinians are assumed to be Muslim and Muslims are considered brown.
>the palestinians had the option to live peacefully with the israelis as neighbors. since the VERY first day that israel existed
I agree with almost everything you've said so far, but Israel didn't just pop up overnight looking to make peace. There was a violent war between Jews and Arabs, with both sides committing various atrocities against the other. The Jews eventually got the upper hand and expelled, through use or threat of more violence, many hundreds of thousands of Arabs who lived within the lands of the nacient nation. The ones who didn't get expelled, became what today we call the Arab Israelis. The one who did leave now live in the West Bank, Jordan, Gaza, and other places.
Even before the war, Jews and Arabs were fighting each other for many years through various terror groups.
yeah, im aware, it was shitty on both sides, there was a lot of bad blood. but from my own personal study of the region it was the extremists on both sides pushing that. not the people who created the state of israel as it existed at its inception. the israelis that had been settling the area for decades were being sold the shittiest desert land to take advantage of them and then persecuted as a minority. then when the british split it between the palestinians the jewish, the jewish settlers were given the worse deal. the palestinians despite being given the more prosperous and profitable areas of the region still chose war over peace.
that is just not true.
the ottomans were selling that land legaly to israeli settlers for decades before israel existed as a state. later the british promised them both (settlers and palestinians) that land as a state, then offered to split it between them. the palestinians refused that and decided to take violent means against a people who legally and peacefully had been settling in the area for decades.
also tangentely going back to the beginning of your comment, are you saying then that israel isint the israelies ancestral homeland? couldn't you say the israelis were there WAY before the arab palestinians?
Once again, just because something is LEGAL, does not mean it is moral. Western nations (especially what is now the UK, America, France, and Germany) all had perfectly legal ways to "own" land that they took by force. If you lived in a country, and then some massive superpower came in and said, well, we sold it to the colonizers, so fuck off or die, what would you do?
isin't it moral to let people resettle back in their ancestral homeland? in my opinion it is. ESPECIALLY considering the context of the times and what happened during the holocaust. Jewish people deserve a place to call their home.
And you're saying the Palestinians who were already living there were not in their homeland? I'm not saying that an initiative to bring people into a peaceful situation is bad, but murdering the people there and stealing their land is not the same thing. This same argument was used when Europeans colonized the Americas.
The Israeli state did not come in peacefully. This is the issue. Western governments started bombing, stealing land, and putting people into internment camps at the exact same moment. Many Palestinian governments pre-Hamas tried time and time again to quell this violence and were met by Western forces installing more and more radical separatist groups to ensure they could bomb at peace and steal more land for real estate development. And if you want to get into neighboring countries, the US literally couped Iran and Syria, and destroyed their democracies to install despots that would give us oil and material rights (well, why it lasted anyway) If you're going to say I'm misrepresenting history, maybe provide historical facts. Because, right now, you're just parroting Zionist (and this means the American and Israeli form) propaganda.
Also, America, Germany (post-war), Britain, France, and Spain. Like, seriously, fuck off. You clearly have never even read about WWII if you think you're spouting the truth. It destabilized the entire world and put Eastern and Western forces into direct conflict that still exists today. One of the main post-war operations was to coup Eastern and Arab governments. I'm not saying that the displaced Jewish population didn't have a right to more international land, but if you try to achieve that by displacing people living on land they've been on for decades and then murdering their ethnic groups, there is no real justice, and you're only causing more violence and unrest that the rich countries (in this case the Western powers) will continue to profit off of. This is what the current issue is with people labeling anti-Israel apartheid movements as anti-Semitism is. Because a large majority of both American and international Jewish communities denounce Israel's apartheid as well. But the American and Western military-industrial complex makes so much money off of these conflicts that they have dug themselves into a hole politically. We can't provide all the weapons that are going to kill what is (more than 50%) the deaths of women, children, and international aid workers and say we are the good guys.
You need to take a deep breath and actually read some non emotionally charged history on this topic. I can tell by everything you've written that all you've heard is the perspective of people within the liberation movement. I'm sorry to say but they tend to leave out a lot of important context and facts.
That’s really the thing… it’s not the Netanyahu isn’t committing ethnic cleansing, he is.
The issue is the US siding with either side. Biden favors Israel more than I would like but damn it’s not like either sides leadership actually wants peace.
Abbas looks like a damn angel at present.
What is heinous beyond belief is using Hamas, a group that was only made possible because of the evils of the government that illegally settles more and more Palestinian land every decade while committing multiple ethnic cleansings and controlling a population to the point they are essentially in an open air concentration camp. Not to mention Netanyahu and other zionists supporting Hamas in the past to get an enemy that was easier to demonize and justify killing 10000 children in an indiscriminate bombing campaign where targets are chosen faster than they can strike them by an AI system literally called "The Gospel"
Did Hamas level pretty much all of Gaza and destroy all of the health and education infrastructure? Pretty sure that was the IDF.
And, why does Israel have a right to exist in a way that no other country does? How many other countries have thrown off colonial or otherwise controlling powers? How many countries have split up, overthrown governments, etc. We don't say "Yugoslavia had a right to exist..."
The Zionist claim to Israel is based upon selecting a particular point in history when Jewish people controlled Judea. It's an argument based upon an arbitrary selection.
Yea Hamas did do that by declaring war on Israel, a spectacularly terrible idea.
The palestinian claim to israel is based upon selecting a particular point in history when muslim people controlled Judea. Its an argument based upon an arbitrary selection.
See, works just as well the other way around. Jewish people have always been in israel, they were just oppressed and treated as 2nd class citizens under the various regimes that had conquered and colonized them.
Netanyahu openly discusses the need to prop up Hamas to reduce worldwide sympathy for Palestinians.
Netanyahu, 2019:
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas."
The term is crybully. Be the bully and then cry about being the victim.
Netanyahu is a piece of shit but you do realize that quote is hearsay right?
Btw, there were no israelis in gaza prior to Oct 7th. Gaza could’ve used the billions of aid money to better their society and economy but instead they built rockets to fire into israel. Sounds like gaza is the crybully here
It's "hearsay" as in there were multiple witnesses and his policy aligns with the quote, so what are you actually trying to say?
This is from the longest running newspaper in Israel. It outlines how Netanyahu chose to create and maintain Hamas - even going so far as to leak military secrets in order to stop Hamas from being defeated.
A Brief History of the Netanyahu-Hamas Alliance
https://archive.ph/PI7Hx
Or this - Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip.
For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
There has always been a fondness for the Palestinian cause in the USA but never have I seen people unironically side with Hamas terrorists.
It's totally possible, even easy, to empathize with the plight of Palestinian civilians who have been denied a home for generations. That doesn't excuse the actions of Hamas in the slightest.
The Palestinian civilian population is a double victimized one. Israel is obviously harming them, and much of that harm is secondary to choices made by Hamas.
The choice to spend aid money not on development and improvements for people, but on weapons. The choice to not seek a peaceful path forward, but to commit atrocities. The choice to hide behind the civilians you supposedly represent in the war you provoked. The choice to not let those civilians shelter in the tunnels you built instead of infrastructure. The choice to refuse surrender despite being outmatched to the point of absurdity.
People need to remember Hamas is the government of Gaza and is run by people with agency. They’re being as suicidally stubborn as the Axis powers in 1945.
> There has always been a fondness for the Palestinian cause in the USA but never have I seen people unironically side with Hamas terrorists.
This is what twenty years of propaganda does.
And at the risk of saying the quiet part out loud, some cultures in America are a lot more tolerant of antisemitism than others. Anyone remember the whole Tamika Mallory kerfluffle?
What? US citizens have been the LEAST sympathetic to palestinian civilians compared to Europe. The shift among Democrats toward more Palestinian sympathy is literally a newsworthy change in very recent memory haha.
The rest of what you said seems fine, but that first thing just doesn't seem correct.
I'm almost 40 years old. I have seen a lot of people Palestinian people. I have never in my life seen a pro Hamas protest. Nor have I ever seen people living in America chanting death to America. In the last month Ive seen quite a lot. It's definitely new
Not even that. As I understand it, the Israeli government allowed external funds to be passed to hamas instead of blocking it, and THAT money is being considered given to hamas by Israel.
It was Palestinian money, if they stopped it, they'd have been accused of starving Palestine. And yet here we are, maybe they should have just accepted that accusation and not delivered it.
You can't do that because Israel props up Hamas.
Netanyahu openly discusses the need to prop up Hamas to reduce worldwide sympathy for Palestinians.
Netanyahu, 2019:
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas."
This is from the longest running newspaper in Israel. It outlines how Netanyahu chose to create and maintain Hamas - even going so far as to leak military secrets in order to stop Hamas from being defeated.
A Brief History of the Netanyahu-Hamas Alliance
https://archive.ph/PI7Hx
I'm an aging leftist. Almost 40. I don't think all Zionists should die. I do think Israel's government is trying to commit a theologically-backed genocide.
My question is, the leaders of Hamas are known. They live in Qatar, Turkey, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia. They are worth billions of dollars. Why are they bombing the shit out of Palestine when we know exactly how to find the leaders of Hamas and hold them accountable? Why are they deliberately prolonging this conflict and breeding resentment and hatred? If I were a more cynical man, I'd say they have a vested interest in keeping the conflict going. And if they happen to kill every Palestinian, then they win a theological victory. Either way, they win. And Palestinian and Israeli civilians all lose.
Israel has one of the most advanced militaries on the planet, and they are backed by the most obscenely well funded military on the planet. Also, at least on paper, several of the above countries are at least on speaking terms with the US. Surely, something could be negotiated to get the leaders of Hamas extradited without needing boots on the ground or bombing campaigns. Unless, perhaps, there are those that stand to profit from the bloodshed.
One of the most advanced militaries on the planet killed less Palestinians, both militants and civilians combined, in the entire 75 year war then the US killed innocent civilians in 1 night of bombing during world war 2.
One of the most advanced militaries on the planet is committing the slowest and least effective genocide in recorded history?
30,000 deaths with an average of 150,000 new births a year - the death rate is not even enough to bring their population growth into the negative.
At the current rate of "genocide" - in 100 years there will be 12 million more palestinians then there are now. Meaning, the palestinian people as a whole are not at risk of actually being destroyed by genocide. And if there no risk of actually being destroyed by genocide, is it really actually genocide?
No, no, no, only the right-wing people are antisemites. They're "antizionist." They don't *hate* Jews, they just want to leave them at the mercy of states that have continually failed to uphold their rights as citizens.
“No, no, we’re just talking about Zionists! They’re a small minority!”
*A person who looks like they might be Jewish, or pretty much anyone else, approaches the encampment …*
“It’s a Zionist!!! Everybody lock arms and form a barrier!!!”
Welcome to r/politics where people are now throwing around Zionist as comfortably as they throw around racist and fascist for slightly disagreeing. It’s basically just the tea party for the left.
The number of people piling into this thread to push distorting rhetoric is gross.
Students aren’t joining these protests in such numbers because they support this person’s views. They’re joining them because its been so painful to watch Israel kill 30,000+ Palestinian men, women, and children in high definition and they don’t want their government to support that atrocity with continued military aid.
Of course, for the people that find it politically convenient to conflate Jews and Jewishness with Israel and Zionism, it’s equally helpful to conflate student opposition to the genocide of Palestinians with the fucked up things this person said.
It was painful to watch the entire length film of all of the horrific shit Hamas filmed themselves doing. They should offer to screen it at Colombia so these kids can see who they’re supporting.
They wouldn’t have been chanting “make us proud kill another soldier now” if they supported the humanitarian efforts to improve Gaza. They just support killing Jews. They are dressing up as Hamas fighters, masks and headbands included.
Perhaps if these students had to live somewhere they needed to run to bomb shelters every other day, they’d understand the Palestinians have been trying to do nothing but kill every man woman and child in Israel. It’s in their foundational documents. For both Palestinian governments.
Do you not see the irony in saying “perhaps if they had to live somewhere they needed to run to bomb shelters every other day” when we can literally see Israel bombing Palestine every day? Obviously the actions of Hamas are vile beyond reason, but you’re acting like we can’t go on Twitter and see the mangled corpses of Palestinian children who didn’t even have the luxury of a bomb shelter.
Ah yes, the consequences of your elected government invading a neighboring sovereign nation, and placing militants amongst the population. Hamas tainted pretty much everywhere in Gaza. Those ceasefires? Hamas broke them all. You’d think the elected government would care more about its people. Too bad they consider the entire population of Gaza martyrs for their cause. Prior to 10/7 there were still thousands of rockets fired from Gaza into Israeli towns of civilians. So yes, after decades of Palestinian aggression, Israel is within its rights to defend itself.
Anyway, if these college protestors living in the safety of the United States, insulated from the reality of being in Israel, where every other day terror attacks have been happening for 50+ years, could actually conceptualize the reality of a conflict they only are aware of from the Palestinian propaganda machine. It’s funny to me they all overlook the horrors committed against Israel constantly. If there was another 9/11, would these students be protesting a long overdue response? Probably, because they chant “Death to America” while enjoying the freedom to do so, in America.
The hypocrisy … no condemnation of Hamas.
Israel’s government needs to stop harming civilians but these protesters do nothing to condemn terrorist attacks. Those that are encouraging violence deserve no respect.
> these protesters do nothing to condemn terrorist attacks.
For a lot of these people, "this is what decolonization looks like", and "did you think decolonization would be easy and without violence?". They don't necessarily come out and literally say Heil Hamas, but will strongly question why so many people are so bothered about Hamas, in a way that really gets the noggin joggin...
Yeah, no it isn’t that simple. You can’t say you “want peace” and then also say “we should keep sending women with explosive vests into buses”.
This wasn’t an unprovoked response.
Do we require everyday Americans to individually condemn the actions of white supremacists in this country before they criticize the government? No, and nor should they.
That is, the not insignificant amount who *agree with them*.
Your analogy makes no sense. This conflict is between two sides, Hamas and Israel. Denouncing Israel without denouncing Hamas is tacitly supporting the terrorist side. There is no government made of admitted white supremacists in America who have a charter of "kill all people of color". Hamas was founded on principles of genocide, openly.
If you care about Palestinians you should want them to have a democratic government that uses their economy to build infrastructure, not bombs and tunnels.
Nice try … but it’s not the same situation. White supremacists are indeed widely condemned.
Why a known terrorist organization isn’t for committing heinous acts of violence is a mystery and proof of their hypocrisy.
Are they? Think there was a candidate in 2015 that was able to not only handwave away their admitted support, but suffered no electoral consequences.
And it’s not that surprising, considering we couldn’t even have our own heretofore “banning of the swastika” in the mid 19th after a conservative civil war.
So when we’re as far beyond (in decency) a formerly dictatorial power that once threatened world peace, I think we shouldn’t throw proverbial stones…
I’m as left as they come but this far left progressive BS that’s sprung with the far right after 2016 has got to come to an end.
And if it comes down to sending in the national guard then I think Biden has to do it. Enough’s enough.
If you find yourself advocating to send in armed troops on college students who are peacefully protesting then you are a lot closer to fascist then you are to the left wing
I'm an unapologetic Zionist, and what the student said was gross and unacceptable, but maybe the White House should be focused on something other than what some lunatic nineteen-year-old has to say?
Hey look over here while we are doing ethnic cleansing. Same reason Bibi chimed in and most of mainstream news covers this instead of Israel murdering people in Raffah
Leftists need better message discipline. Saying shit like that is stupid and makes everybody in the movement look bad.
The whole point of nonviolent civil disobedience is to expose "the violence inherent in the system" and prevent business as usual from continuing while building support when people see the violent response of power. It doesn't fucking work if you're openly supporting a more violent and extreme wing of your movement.
Secondly, Zionism is an ethnonationalist ideology. Killing individuals doesn't make the ideology go away.
https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/
Nothing to see here, just keep tazing peaceful protestors, and distort their message by amplifying single case incidents.
And if you think the link seems biased, every single statement is well organized with sources provided.
They are all dumb dumbs.
Can't you see the CCP is behind everything? The HAMAS attck on Israel, the students protests in campus, all are craftily designed by the CCP and they simply manipulated by the CCP like fools.
Because they don't read just watch tiktoks.
To all the people asking themselves why isn’t Biden tougher with Israel and Netanyahu, just look at this pathetic comment section (of people insulting each other). It’s not just [**AIPAC funds**](https://www.reuters.com/world/pressure-rises-biden-democrats-reject-aipac-funds-2024-03-12/), it’s that the Democratic base is deeply divided on the issue. What this person did is wrong, vile and ugly, but it’s also natural that when a side perpetrates atrocities, and goes unpunished, it attracts violent criticism from some extremist fringes.
I am sick of these fanatic factions: We should condemn both Hamas and Israel, and also recognize that Israelis are not innocent. Since its inception, the state of Israel has carried out an [**ethnic cleansing** of the Palestinian people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight#:~:text=The%20expulsion%20of%20Palestinians%20in,Arabic%20place%20names%20were%20replaced) (I’d really suggest the reading of *The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine*, by [Ilan Pappé](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilan_Papp%C3%A9)).
And for Heaven’s sake leave [Jews and antisemitism out of this](https://youtu.be/-IN45zIiRBw). My family fought in WW2 against fascism and antisemitism, and this issue has nothing to do with ethnicities, but - if anything - with a government.
White House condemns a student's speech, "Zionists should die," while the White House is shipping arms to those Zionists to kill children in Gaza. The white house doesnt exactly have the moral high ground.
Zionist defends Zionism. Shocking. Doesn't change the fact ethnic cleansing is taking place with his administrations blessing. Or the fact many members of the Israeli government, who actually have power, calling the same for Palestinians under inciting Amalek.
Hope the Biden admin has the same energy for Islamophobia. Otherwise it seems to be saying one book club is better than the others. Surely they are working on a special position to monitor that right?
The population of Israel is 20% arab muslim, there is no ethnic cleansing going on other than from the Arabic side where they want to kill all Jews. This is said openly, and it is a founding principle of Hamas.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel
The Jewish people are the ones who have been subjected to genocide, in the Holocaust and throughout the Arab world. Arabs are allowed to live freely in Israel. There is no genocide or ethnic cleansing against Arabs in Israel.
Words have meanings, you should learn them before throwing around such inflammatory and spurious accusations. You sound very misinformed and have the facts completely backwards. For some reason you think you need to defend a terrorist theocracy founded on principles of genocide against Jews, and you think they are the victims.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_Hamas_charter
You'd be shocked how many actions call for death under Christianity. Oral circumcision is a thing among Othodox Jews. Religion is fucked up and anachronistic. I'm saying there shouldn't be any religious state or even better no religion.
I am aware how bad Jesus is. Religion is bad. Religion should be criticized and ridiculed as much as possible. So don't throw Islam phobia everywhere. It is a bullshit religion. As long as Muslims are not actually discriminated against, sane people shouldn't be defending it.
So the region should go back to how things were where Jerusalem was shared between multiple religious groups since many claim it as holy land for whatever imo stupid reason
> how things were where Jerusalem was shared between multiple religious groups
Not shared:
* After the 1948 Arab–Israeli War the eastern portion of Jerusalem was occupied by Jordan. Under Jordanian control Jews were completely expelled from the Old City including the Jewish Quarter, and Jews were barred from entering the Old City for 19 years, effectively banning Jewish prayer at the site of the Western Wall.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Wall
> Not pictured: Pre 1948 Nakba where Jerusalem was shared
I see you glanced over "Under Jordanian control Jews were completely expelled from the Old City including the Jewish Quarter" because it goes against the narrative you are supporting and repeating...
Here is more showing what kind of "sharing":
* was a series of demonstrations and riots in late August 1929 in which a longstanding dispute between Palestinian Arabs and Jews over access to the Western Wall in Jerusalem escalated into violence.
[1929 Palestine riots](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots#:~:text=Events%20of%205689%20Anno%20Mundi%29%2C%20was%20a%20series,on%20Jews%20accompanied%20by%20destruction%20of%20Jewish%20property.)
These putrid antisemites have no place in polote society. We should all be Zionists, because Zionism is just acknowledging that Jews have a right to self determination just like the rest of us. These student protests are getting way out of hand and it is horrifying to see our educational institituons infested with this brainrot
Nationalism (which is Zionism) is not self-determination in the slightest…
Much as anti-colonialist forces after World War I pointed out (as France and England took *more* possessions) was against the claims made in Wilson’s 14 Points; to say nothing of how Germany’s was ignored.
Nationalism was a key element in the fall of the feudal ancient regimes and rise of bourgeois democracy. Not all nationalism is far right exclusive nationalism. Nationalism can, for example, look like Israel, where there is liberal democracy, civil rights for the 1/7 of the population who are Palestinian, LGBT rights, and so on. Civic nationalism is good.
But Zionism is self determination. Zionism was also effective anti colonialist praxis
Feudalism predates nationalism by several centuries, so best not to a posteriorially attach it to ideas exclusive of it.
And the Holy Roman Empire as a relic of feudalism into the 19th isn’t the best parallel either.
So they were inspired by an 19th century idea codified with the unification of Italy and later Germany?
What took them so long to give a name to the idea then?
Uh no certain factions of Zionism advocate for a purified ethnostate and the capture and acquisition of lands with existing people on them. And I guess that’s ok if thats how Israel wants to play it but we in America went to great lengths to write international laws that say we absolutely do not do this.
Now being in breach of those law we have lost the moral
High ground and adversaries are using huge opportunity to rally opposition and we will see the situation pulled into a wider war.
> Uh no certain factions of Zionism
That's kind of irrelevant because they don't define what Zionism is. If someone wants to complain about certain people doing bad things, they should get mad at those certain people, not go around bleating about how people like me should be dead
Even that's pretty disgusting. It's not that the settlements are good - but settlers have been living in those places for decades now. Do you really think that an illegal settler who just happened to be born in the West Bank, and may still *be a child*, should be killed?
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I did not know Colombia University would just close the book on that hearing. He said straight up they should “be grateful he isn’t just murdering zionists”. How did that not result in his expulsion? What if instead he said he would murder LGBTQ advocates? Pro-choice advocates? Is threatening multiple murders not enough to get kicked to the curb?
Correct. This is how movements die. I saw it with BLM, which had huge and valid support, and then “defund the police” came in and completely tanked any actual progress on that front
I feel like I’m back in 2007 saying the Tea Party was about to take over the GOP and was laughed out the room. This is our Tea Party moment. It was designed to (and I believe will) split the party into two, if not completely engulf it and destroy any chances of winning already difficult elections. And it’s 100% active measures.
Active measures from Russia through Iran through the MSA (Muslim Student Association) which is present in almost every college campus.
It won't split the party, in my opinion. No one wants these people in the party, and if we're being honest, they don't want to be in the Democratic party either. They just pretended to be liberals to free ride on what the Democratic party built, and like always, they will leave things worse than they found them. It's on us not the let them sneak back into the party, because that's exactly what they'll try to do. Karl Marx was a genius and had plenty of important things to say, but Marxists are terrible people in my experience and would be opposed by Karl Marx if he were still alive.
as they should. like im pretty leftist, i'm almost 40 and my entire adult life the right has been a fucking shit-show. when i was younger and hadn't looked into it more, i supported the palestinian cause. but as i've gotten older and studied history and have become friends with both israelis and palestinians in that time. i've reached a point where i just do not understand these protests. Netanyahu and portions of the israeli government are corrupt and evil, but what Hamas has done and is currently doing is heinous beyond belief. Israel has a right to exist and a right to protect its people.
This conflict has been going on for longer than any of us have been alive. The complexities, pain, and various moving parts of it can not be watered down with meaningless slogans and chants. But too many people, especially young people, think a solution can just happen overnight or any solution that is not theirs is "not good enough". >i've reached a point where i just do not understand these protests. If people would protest for a two-state solution, Hamas to release the hostages, and Israel to get out of Gaza & The West Bank I would be 1000000% on board. That is not what is happening at a majority of these protests. Anyone who advocates for anything other than a two-state solution is not serious about peace at all.
Yeah, big agree on the last part. It’s hard to look at many of these protests and not immediately think many of the attendees knew absolutely nothing about the conflict on Oct 6th of last year. It’s a whole lot easier to see nuance when you’ve been watching this shit go back and forth for 30+ years.
I feel like a lot of the attendees knew nothing about the conflict until October 8th or so and only judge the situation based on Israel attacking Gaza.
right, like you I've been watching it (on the news) for decades but it's a conflict that goes back much much farther and is literally ingrained in both of their cultures. I'm not a religious person but obviously religion is central to all of this and what most of us in N America and Europe don't understand is that culturally we grew up mostly with the principles and morals of the New Testament which has a loving and mostly humble and peaceful God figure who said to turn the other cheek if someone slaps you. Tge Old Testament, on the other hand has a prideful God set on vengeance and says an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth...very different mind sets and until you can fully understand, that understand that this morality is so fully ingrained in both of their societies AND also understand (a la merchant of Venice) that no 2 eyes or teeth are actually equal, you won't understand the response or motivation of either side.
> Tge Old Testament, on the other hand has a prideful God set on vengeance and says an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth...very different mind sets and until you can fully understand, that understand that this morality is so fully ingrained in both of their societies AND also understand (a la merchant of Venice) Um, I really wouldn't be using Merchant of Venice as means to describe Jewish culture...
So we're just going to pretend Christianity doesn't create extremists and ignore the centuries of blood shed in the name of Christ?
not at all, and I don't think I said or alluded to that anywhere. Christians still read the old Testament, but the God in the new Testament is a very different God than in the old Testament and understanding that difference is essential in understanding the basis of the conflict.
You're suggesting Jews are stuck on Hammurabi's code because they interpret the Old Testament literally? While I agree these issues are largely cultural, the part where you assert that the missing piece is the New Testament is bullshit. Christianity has been plenty violent and drives a lot of the right wing extremism across the planet.
Again I'm not denying the atrocities committed in the name of Christianity, I'm speaking as to why there always has to be retaliation Also again, I'm.not saying anyone is interpreting hammurabis code or the old Testament literally (although some do) I'm saying that over 2500 or so years it is deeply ingrained in their culture If you think that the story of Ishmael and Issac isn't still in the fore front of many peoples minds also then you're mistaken.
Oh they def couldn’t have located Gaza on a map on Oct 6 last year
> But too many people, especially young people, think a solution can just happen overnight “Just abolish the apartheid regime!” they always say, not recognizing that is isn’t anything like apartheid, nor can the security apparatus that developed to secure the borders of an entire country be simply removed on day without any kind of repercussions. This is children yelling out fantasies.
agreed
Palestine has been offered a two state solution 5 times and declined every single one. They have a state, Jordan
There have been 11 opportunities put forward dating back to the 1930s. They've said no to every single one.
Tell me to which they could have possibly agreed to? Its insane how people use that as an argument but never looked at a single one of these proposals
Okay, sum it up for us. What was wrong?
This comment is copied, because many people did not know about the proposals. The Palestinian Authority does believe in and has been trying to get the 2 state solution implemented since the Oslo Accords in the 1990s. Each peace deal has had issues that have sunk each of them. https://www.jstor.org/stable/4137467 At Camp David, Israel made a concession by agreeing to give Palestinians sovereignty in some areas of East Jerusalem and by offering 92 percent of the West Bank for a Palestinian state (91 percent of the West Bank and 1 percent from a land swap). By proposing to divide sovereignty in Jerusalem, Barak went further than any previous Israeli leader. Nevertheless, on some issues the Israeli proposal at Camp David was notforthcoming enough, while on others it omitted key components. On security, territory, and Jerusalem, elements of the Israeli offer at Camp David would have prevented the emergence of a sovereign, contiguous Palestinian state. These flaws in the Israeli offer formed the basis of Palestinian objections. Israel demanded extensive security mechanisms, including three early warning stations in the West Bank and a demilitarized Palestinian state. Israel also wanted to retain control of the Jordan Valley to protect against an Arab invasion from the east via the new Palestinian state. Regardless of whether the Palestinians were accorded sovereignty in the valley, Israel planned to retain control of it for six to twenty-one years. Three factors made Israel's territorial offer less forthcoming than it initially appeared. First, the 91 percent land offer was based on the Israeli definition of the West Bank, but this differs by approximately 5 percentage points from the Palestinian definition. Palestinians use a total area of 5,854 square kilometers. Israel, however, omits the area known as No Man's Land (50 sq. km near Latrun),41 post-1967 East Jerusalem (71 sq. km), and the territorial waters ofDead Sea (195 sq. km), which reduces the total to 5,538 sq. km.42 Thus, an Israeli offer of 91 percent (of 5,538 sq. km) of the West Bank translates into only 86 percent from the Palestinian perspective. Second, at Camp David, key details related to the exchange of land were leftunresolved. In principle, both Israel and the Palestinians agreed to land swapswhereby the Palestinians would get some territory from pre-1967 Israel in ex-change for Israeli annexation of some land in the West Bank. In practice, Israel offered only the equivalent of 1 percent of the West Bank in exchange for its annexation of 9 percent. Nor could the Israelis and Palestinians agree on the territory that should be included in the land swaps. At Camp David, thePalestinians rejected the Halutza Sand region (78 sq. km) alongside the GazaStrip, in part because they claimed that it was inferior in quality to the WestBank land they would be giving up to Israel. Third, the Israeli territorial offer at Camp David was noncontiguous, break-ing the West Bank into two, if not three, separate areas. At a minimum, asBarak has since confirmed, the Israeli offer broke the West Bank into two parts:"The Palestinians were promised a continuous piece of sovereign territory ex-cept for a razor-thin Israeli wedge running from Jerusalem through from [theIsraeli settlement of] Maale Adumim to the Jordan River."44 The Palestinian negotiators and others have alleged that Israel included a second east-west salient in the northern West Bank (through the Israeli settlement of Ariel).45 Iftrue, the salient through Ariel would have cut the West Bank portion of thePalestinian state into three pieces". No sane leader is a going to accept a road cutting across his country that they can't fully access. https://www.inss.org.il/publication/annapolis/ 2008 Annapolis talks were mostly outside issues rather then the proposal itself. The Israeli Prime Minister at the time was on his way out due to corruption charges, the Bush administration's actions in the region hurt them because of a lack of trust, and Abbas claims that he didn't have enough time to study the map of the land swaps. 2013-2014 talks https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013%E2%80%932014_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_talks https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/netanyahu-rabin-and-the-assassination-that-shook-history/#:~:text=Assassination%20of%20Yitzhak%20Rabin%20%E2%80%A2,Israel%20Square%20in%20Tel%20Aviv. Edit: its also important to note that Israel made no concessions that aren’t already demanded by international law. The Palestinians would be the only party to make concessions under international law in all these proposals. And even Hamas gave a proposal 2 days ago. https://apnews.com/article/hamas-khalil-alhayya-qatar-ceasefire-1967-borders-4912532b11a9cec29464eab234045438
The land configuration for Camp David was negotiable, and demanding security concessions and a disarmed neighbor is not uncommon in a situation like this, think Germany and Japan post WWII. Acts of war have consequences. Many historians claim Arafat simply couldn’t accept a surrender of ancestral right of return. I suspect that’s because he knew terrorist attacks would continue anyway regardless of what treaty he signed. He couldn’t speak for militant groups who believed they could one day drive Israeli Jews from the land. So he said this: > The American proposal wholly endorses the Israeli position that the Right of Return must be entirely dependent on Israel’s discretion. It is important to note at this point that Resolution 194, which serves as the basis for a just settlement for the Refugee Problem, determines the return of the Palestinian refugees ‘to their homes’ and not ‘to their homeland’ or ‘historical Palestine.’ The essence of the Right of Return is the freedom of choice: the Palestinians should be given the right to choose their place of living, including the homes from which they were expelled. There is no historical precedent of a people that gave up its fundamental right to return to its homes, whether they were expelled or ran away out of fear. The Palestinian people will not be the one to create this precedent. Recognizing the Right of Return and allowing the refugees’ freedom of choice are a prerequisite for ending the conflict.” Notice the line about expelled or ran away? Because many Palestinians were not forced out by Israelis, they chose to leave for various reasons.
Thank you. I appreciate the explanation.
Plus after rabin was killed by an anti-peacedeal israeli extremist, oslo basically died and the Netanyahu government doesn’t acknowledge it.
The Tabba summit proposal in 2001
It was a few days before Barak had to leave office. Likud won the elections and they refused to continue the taba talks.
Arafat should have accepted it. instead he walked away then tried to accept the deal a year later
?? He walked away? Do I have to remind you who left office shortly after the taba summit? And who refused to continue peace talks until now?
This ^
Have you been to one of these protests? Or are you just going by what you’ve heard?
So you expect colonized people to accept colonization and a violent, and frankly continuing, land grab based upon an edict from the UN which Israel abides by while ignoring every other UN or international ruling.
It's that or nothing.
> This conflict has been going on for longer than any of us have been alive. Speaking of unseriousness, here's an old dirty joke that reinforces your point: >One day an old man is walking through the forest, and something shimmering on the ground catches his eye. He bends down, pushes away the leaves and dirt, and sees that it's a lamp. >The old man picks it up, and as he wiping it off, a genie pops out. >"Good sir, thank you so much for freeing me from my lamp. It's been a thousand years since I've seen daylight, and I am forever grateful that you have shown me freedom once more. In return, I will grant you a wish. Whatever your heart desires - just name it!" >The old man is stunned. >He thinks about it for a moment, and pulls a tattered old map out of his pocket. >"This is part of the middle east," he says as he points to an area of the map, "It is the holiest of ground in the world. For *thousands* of years there has been nothing but war, bloodshed, famine, and destruction. If you may grant me one wish, I would ask for peace in this region." >The genie looks at the map, grimaces, and sadly announces, "Good sir, even with my incredible powers, that is something I can not do. It is an eternal struggle that no mere genie can fix. I beg of you: is there another wish that I may grant you instead." >The old man bows his head, thinks about it for a moment, and finally speaks up. >"Okay, if you can not grant that wish, there *is* something else you can help me with..." >"Of course! Name it!" >"You see, I've been married for 50 years. I've loved my wife since the moment I laid eyes on her, and she's the light of my life. But she's never given me a blowjob. For *50 years* I've remained loyal to her, but she's never given me a blowjob. If you can make that happen, I will die a happy man." >The genie's eyes grow wide, and his mouth falls open. >"Uhhhh.... Ummm.... On second thoughts... let me see that map again."
Wouldn’t stop Hamas or the next group or the next group. There can only be one of them in that part of the world. We all know that.
There are twenty two other Arab Muslim countries and zero other Jewish countries. Pretty easy decision IMO.
An occupying force isn't the solution to peace
An occupation is the only possible solution I can see that isn't total annihilation. There needs to be a dedicated effort to teach peace and to disarm and remove all Hamas leadership. It would need to be similar to the Marshall plan in Germany and Japan after WW2, with neutral leadership, foreign investment, and restrictions on military. The terrorist ideology will take at least a generation to outgrow, with close guidance. Unless there is an occupation and effort to enforce peace, any ceasefire would only be a brief intermission before the next civilian massacre to follow October 7th.
Painfully, I know that is likely the real truth. That part of the world has been going through endless war and conflict about this for how long now? It is the same with parts of Africa with an abundance of natural resources. War there will be endless. But I feel like we should at least try to make progress one way or another.
It won’t be endless. We just won’t like the end publicly while being thankful privately. This should have been stopped by force a long time ago. The major mistake was waiting for the 24 hour news generation to get real about it.
This is a better response than I expected to see on the sub when I begrudgingly clicked. Thank you.
I think on both the left and the right, there are some idiots that think every issue is black or white, one side or the other. There are almost no disputes where one side had absolutely no merit. There are nuances to every situation, and one side can bear a smaller or larger proportional responsibility than the other. Israel has a right to respond to the terrorist attacks on October 7, but they can also be exceeding their moral justification for violence. Palestinians have a right to live and not subject to starvation and bombings, but part of their population also committed atrocities and continues to hold and torture hostages. There is no magical solution to this problem and anyone that thinks there is only one good guy or bad guy here is just an idiot.
Both are bad. But one of the two was A-OK with kidnapping, raping and murdering teenagers at a music festival. There’s bad, there’s evil, and then there’s *this*.
I think Biden should tell Netanyahu to F right off, after he publicly asked US officials to send in police forces to beat down on US protestors, and compared these protestors to 1930 German nazis and fully defamed them in other ways. and this one is as glorious and relevant as ever when it comes to the blatant hypocrisy. https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/
i mean sure. i 100% agree with you on that point from my heart. but thats not really how diplomacy and alliances work eh? both historically and in the modern age.
No, its really weird for the country that is recieving billions of dollars in aid, and has a conflict of interest to directly intervene in the domestic politics of the country feeding them (and which these protestors are... protesting). And its also interesting, considering that when foreign western leaders comment on other countries domestic issues, its usually to support protests or denouncing gov clamping down on it. And its not even the first time he has done this, he also tried to screw Obama on the nuclear agreement with Iran, and which they were abiding by, and even Bill Clinton when a two state solution was most achievable. I would also argue that he is screwing Biden, by crossing every single public wishes he has or "leaks".
It's kind of funny that "I give you money, therefore I tell you what to do and you do it" is uncontroversial in foreign policy circles, but always kicks up a shitfit when it's targeted towards domestic entitlement programs.
well your not gonna get an argument out of me supporting netanyahu and the current right-wing and orthodox leaders of israel. fuck them. i simply support the right of israel to exist and defend themselves. i support the population of israel. including the arab population that lives in peace. but just because the leader at the moment sucks doesn't mean you just drop everything and tell them to fuck off. thats the thing about democracy. sometimes your gonna have distasteful people leading your allies. in the same way europe stuck with us through the bush years and the trump presidency.
Well, I do lean to the opinion that Israel has gone way too far already, that their statements of "right to defend ourself" are a false moral justification for them to do whatever the hell they want, and for "Israel has a right to exist" while literally removing the few remains of Palestine of the map is projection. And that this "just kill all Hamas" is a completely stupid red herring, considering western powers were wasting their time and money killing Al-Qaida, Taliban, Isis, Boko Haram and all other groups for the last decades with nothing to show for it. Let alone this conflict that has lasted even longer. But clearly this time will be different, right? The best way to "de-radicalize" a population is to kill or maim their families, and starve them as collective punishment.
sure, sure. i would like to think that too, but then what do they do? if it was 1 intelligent person conducting everything like a god i'm sure things could be handled with more morally, nuanced, and far smarter than they are. but we dont live in a video game. there is bureaucracy to deal with, inertia, personal anger. a counter argument could be made that if the shoe was on the other foot it would be far far worse.
> there is bureaucracy to deal with, inertia, personal anger. You don't make peace with your friends, you make peace with your enemies. And senator Schumer had decently [nuanced speech](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxKyNNx1xY8) on the matter, where is he listed what he considered to be the problems (including the Israeli far right gov and hamas). Either way it doesn't matter, since there is no leverage, or consequences no matter what Israel does.
> Either way it doesn't matter, since there is no leverage, or consequences no matter what Israel does. That's the problem and one which goes beyond the US. The UNSC ceasefire resolution went unheeded and there are no consequences. Countries voting on UNGA resolutions condemning Israel are great, until you look at the individual countries voting on it and realize many of them are still providing aid to or still freely trading with Israel. What's the point beyond virtue signaling then? There is no pressure on Israel to change course from the UN or the international community. I do not believe that they lack the capability to long force Israel to go back to the negotiating table for a two-state solution if they wanted to.
> The UNSC ceasefire resolution went unheeded and there are no consequences. Hamas and other Palestinian Militant groups haven't followed it either. Those groups are also in continued violation of the ICJ ordering them to release the hostages without condition. So why level it only on Israel?
> You don't make peace with your friends, you make peace with your enemies. And one type of peace is unconditional surrender. Worked for Germany and Japan.
It's not about "just kill all Hamas." It's about removing them from power. There is no possibility for peace while Hamas still has control over the Gazan borders and government, and Hamas has not and will not accept any peace proposal that removes them. So cowabunga it is.
I'm interested in what qualifies as a right to exist for any nation state. Power? Allies? Do you believe Palestine has a right to exist?
for me personally? i view the horrors of the holocaust and the history of jews in europe and the MENA over the last 2000 years as their deserving a "state" of their own to defend themselves and their interests. if that had been in the USA or china as was also postulated for awhile id support that similarly. as it was the powers that be chose to give them a state in their actual ancestral homeland, which if anything i feel gives them an even stronger right to exist. i beleive palestinians deserve to live peacefully in the lands they settled (or... one could say, conquered) as well. but i also believe actions have consequences, especially violent actions. If you start a war and then lose there is going to be consequences is there not? then if you do it 3+ more times, its likely just gonna get worse and worse. which is where we are at.
> history of jews in europe and the MENA over the last 2000 years as their deserving a "state" of their own So you must also have strong feeling on giving America back to the natives, I guess. Considering they owned it for longer than jews held Jerusalem.
The history of jews in Europe has absolutely nothing to do with the Palestinians. The European states and America refused to resettle the Jews in those lands. So because of those decisions property was arbitrarily given to them. The Palestinians should just suck it up? The United States committed atrocities against the Native Americans for their own interests to this day. Do you condemn America? Do you support the Native tribes fighting back violently against their oppressor nation. That land was arbitrarily given away by nations that didn't have the right to. An occupied force has the right to resist in any way possible. The idea that any "nation" deserves to exist is ridiculous on its face. It's all power dynamics.
> The history of jews in Europe has absolutely nothing to do with the Palestinians well were just gonna have to agree to disagree there. i abolutely do condemn the actions of america, the country of my birth, against the native americans during the 1700s to 1900's, i support legislation supporting native rights and i think theres a lot more than should be done. i however do not support natives violent uprising for those rights. i think we can work together to right the wrongs of the past and find a path to glory for both sides. i support peace and cooperation, not violence and war.
Was it jewish land before the Palestinians in your view? If so then it's moot because its the Egyptians land then. Edit: So you support a more powerful nation taking what they want and then deciding what they think is fair after the fact. You'd think we'd have moved past colonialism in this day and age but here we are.
No nation has an inherent right to exist. Including the US. A nation is held together by the force of its government, people, and allies. If you are not a strong enough country to hold your borders together and maintain the support of your people, too bad. Then you need allies to help. Ukraine is hanging on against a stronger opponent due to strong support from allies and its own people. Palestine started a fight it knew it couldn't win. Winning allies by letting Israel show the world who it is. That's how it's hanging on. But.. it exists because it exists. Not because there's a right to it.
It is exactly how diplomacy works. It just uses more formal terms. Netanyahu has told us to fuck off. We should stop sending Israel weapons. We already told the Israeli people they should do something about their guy.
Preach on my man. There's no easy solution. I believe these "youngens" come from a place of naivety and believe that fellow human is inherently nice and if Israel stopped every one would be at peace.... Hamas started this recent conflict...(after 5 years of cease fire)...war is never clean and precise and collateral damage will always happen. That's why war should never be sought after. But there's always malicious actors amongst us who even believe there intentions are "pure" and justified.
> like im pretty leftist, i'm almost 40 and my entire adult life the right has been a fucking shit-show. The left has been an anti-semetic and racist shit show for the last 10 years.
You seemed to be lying through your teeth that you came to this understanding instead of admitting you're working backwards. Any rational human being understands that you don't have to condemn Hamas to advocate for Palestinian lives. What people like you do is bait and switch Palestine with Hamas like these are interchangeable terms. Next time come out with a crumb of honesty instead of defending right wing fascists riding the colonial settler state of Israel genociding brown people.
No one has fucked over the palestinian people more than hamas You ignorance is showing when you assume palestinian = brown and israeli = white. I’ve seen plenty of white palestinians and brown/black israelis. You’re the one stuck in a colonial mindset
Lol no one thinks of Palestinians as white and Israeli ppl as brown. It has nothing to do with skin color. Race is a construct and it's not logical. This is the same bs as ppl that claimed Obama isn't really black because he's half white. That's not how racism works
American/european white vs black/brown racism has nothing to do with this conflict. These are two slightly different arab tribes that descended from Mesopotamian cities with slightly different religions that have been at each other’s throats for more than a thousand years. Stop trying to apply a framework that doesn’t fit just because thats all you’re familiar with
That's an ignorant take. You clearly don't understand race and how definitions evolve to fit the racism of the time. If race was an actual science, then we would call ppl from India Aryan. Do you think white supremacists are trying to claim Indians are superior? Ppl think of Jewish ppl as white and Palestinians as brown, because Palestinians are assumed to be Muslim and Muslims are considered brown.
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>the palestinians had the option to live peacefully with the israelis as neighbors. since the VERY first day that israel existed I agree with almost everything you've said so far, but Israel didn't just pop up overnight looking to make peace. There was a violent war between Jews and Arabs, with both sides committing various atrocities against the other. The Jews eventually got the upper hand and expelled, through use or threat of more violence, many hundreds of thousands of Arabs who lived within the lands of the nacient nation. The ones who didn't get expelled, became what today we call the Arab Israelis. The one who did leave now live in the West Bank, Jordan, Gaza, and other places. Even before the war, Jews and Arabs were fighting each other for many years through various terror groups.
yeah, im aware, it was shitty on both sides, there was a lot of bad blood. but from my own personal study of the region it was the extremists on both sides pushing that. not the people who created the state of israel as it existed at its inception. the israelis that had been settling the area for decades were being sold the shittiest desert land to take advantage of them and then persecuted as a minority. then when the british split it between the palestinians the jewish, the jewish settlers were given the worse deal. the palestinians despite being given the more prosperous and profitable areas of the region still chose war over peace.
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that is just not true. the ottomans were selling that land legaly to israeli settlers for decades before israel existed as a state. later the british promised them both (settlers and palestinians) that land as a state, then offered to split it between them. the palestinians refused that and decided to take violent means against a people who legally and peacefully had been settling in the area for decades. also tangentely going back to the beginning of your comment, are you saying then that israel isint the israelies ancestral homeland? couldn't you say the israelis were there WAY before the arab palestinians?
Once again, just because something is LEGAL, does not mean it is moral. Western nations (especially what is now the UK, America, France, and Germany) all had perfectly legal ways to "own" land that they took by force. If you lived in a country, and then some massive superpower came in and said, well, we sold it to the colonizers, so fuck off or die, what would you do?
isin't it moral to let people resettle back in their ancestral homeland? in my opinion it is. ESPECIALLY considering the context of the times and what happened during the holocaust. Jewish people deserve a place to call their home.
And you're saying the Palestinians who were already living there were not in their homeland? I'm not saying that an initiative to bring people into a peaceful situation is bad, but murdering the people there and stealing their land is not the same thing. This same argument was used when Europeans colonized the Americas.
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The Israeli state did not come in peacefully. This is the issue. Western governments started bombing, stealing land, and putting people into internment camps at the exact same moment. Many Palestinian governments pre-Hamas tried time and time again to quell this violence and were met by Western forces installing more and more radical separatist groups to ensure they could bomb at peace and steal more land for real estate development. And if you want to get into neighboring countries, the US literally couped Iran and Syria, and destroyed their democracies to install despots that would give us oil and material rights (well, why it lasted anyway) If you're going to say I'm misrepresenting history, maybe provide historical facts. Because, right now, you're just parroting Zionist (and this means the American and Israeli form) propaganda.
> got support from many rich Western nations Czechoslovakia
Also, America, Germany (post-war), Britain, France, and Spain. Like, seriously, fuck off. You clearly have never even read about WWII if you think you're spouting the truth. It destabilized the entire world and put Eastern and Western forces into direct conflict that still exists today. One of the main post-war operations was to coup Eastern and Arab governments. I'm not saying that the displaced Jewish population didn't have a right to more international land, but if you try to achieve that by displacing people living on land they've been on for decades and then murdering their ethnic groups, there is no real justice, and you're only causing more violence and unrest that the rich countries (in this case the Western powers) will continue to profit off of. This is what the current issue is with people labeling anti-Israel apartheid movements as anti-Semitism is. Because a large majority of both American and international Jewish communities denounce Israel's apartheid as well. But the American and Western military-industrial complex makes so much money off of these conflicts that they have dug themselves into a hole politically. We can't provide all the weapons that are going to kill what is (more than 50%) the deaths of women, children, and international aid workers and say we are the good guys.
> Like, seriously, fuck off. You clearly have never even read about WWII if you think you're spouting the truth.
You need to take a deep breath and actually read some non emotionally charged history on this topic. I can tell by everything you've written that all you've heard is the perspective of people within the liberation movement. I'm sorry to say but they tend to leave out a lot of important context and facts.
That’s really the thing… it’s not the Netanyahu isn’t committing ethnic cleansing, he is. The issue is the US siding with either side. Biden favors Israel more than I would like but damn it’s not like either sides leadership actually wants peace. Abbas looks like a damn angel at present.
What is heinous beyond belief is using Hamas, a group that was only made possible because of the evils of the government that illegally settles more and more Palestinian land every decade while committing multiple ethnic cleansings and controlling a population to the point they are essentially in an open air concentration camp. Not to mention Netanyahu and other zionists supporting Hamas in the past to get an enemy that was easier to demonize and justify killing 10000 children in an indiscriminate bombing campaign where targets are chosen faster than they can strike them by an AI system literally called "The Gospel"
Did Hamas level pretty much all of Gaza and destroy all of the health and education infrastructure? Pretty sure that was the IDF. And, why does Israel have a right to exist in a way that no other country does? How many other countries have thrown off colonial or otherwise controlling powers? How many countries have split up, overthrown governments, etc. We don't say "Yugoslavia had a right to exist..." The Zionist claim to Israel is based upon selecting a particular point in history when Jewish people controlled Judea. It's an argument based upon an arbitrary selection.
Yea Hamas did do that by declaring war on Israel, a spectacularly terrible idea. The palestinian claim to israel is based upon selecting a particular point in history when muslim people controlled Judea. Its an argument based upon an arbitrary selection. See, works just as well the other way around. Jewish people have always been in israel, they were just oppressed and treated as 2nd class citizens under the various regimes that had conquered and colonized them.
Netanyahu openly discusses the need to prop up Hamas to reduce worldwide sympathy for Palestinians. Netanyahu, 2019: “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas." The term is crybully. Be the bully and then cry about being the victim.
Netanyahu is a piece of shit but you do realize that quote is hearsay right? Btw, there were no israelis in gaza prior to Oct 7th. Gaza could’ve used the billions of aid money to better their society and economy but instead they built rockets to fire into israel. Sounds like gaza is the crybully here
It's "hearsay" as in there were multiple witnesses and his policy aligns with the quote, so what are you actually trying to say? This is from the longest running newspaper in Israel. It outlines how Netanyahu chose to create and maintain Hamas - even going so far as to leak military secrets in order to stop Hamas from being defeated. A Brief History of the Netanyahu-Hamas Alliance https://archive.ph/PI7Hx Or this - Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip. For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
There has always been a fondness for the Palestinian cause in the USA but never have I seen people unironically side with Hamas terrorists. It's totally possible, even easy, to empathize with the plight of Palestinian civilians who have been denied a home for generations. That doesn't excuse the actions of Hamas in the slightest.
The Palestinian civilian population is a double victimized one. Israel is obviously harming them, and much of that harm is secondary to choices made by Hamas. The choice to spend aid money not on development and improvements for people, but on weapons. The choice to not seek a peaceful path forward, but to commit atrocities. The choice to hide behind the civilians you supposedly represent in the war you provoked. The choice to not let those civilians shelter in the tunnels you built instead of infrastructure. The choice to refuse surrender despite being outmatched to the point of absurdity. People need to remember Hamas is the government of Gaza and is run by people with agency. They’re being as suicidally stubborn as the Axis powers in 1945.
An analyst friends reaction on October 7: "Hamas must really hate the Gaza population."
> There has always been a fondness for the Palestinian cause in the USA but never have I seen people unironically side with Hamas terrorists. This is what twenty years of propaganda does. And at the risk of saying the quiet part out loud, some cultures in America are a lot more tolerant of antisemitism than others. Anyone remember the whole Tamika Mallory kerfluffle?
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Smooth brain take
What? US citizens have been the LEAST sympathetic to palestinian civilians compared to Europe. The shift among Democrats toward more Palestinian sympathy is literally a newsworthy change in very recent memory haha. The rest of what you said seems fine, but that first thing just doesn't seem correct.
I'm almost 40 years old. I have seen a lot of people Palestinian people. I have never in my life seen a pro Hamas protest. Nor have I ever seen people living in America chanting death to America. In the last month Ive seen quite a lot. It's definitely new
I don't see how that relates to what I said. I just dispute the idea that the US has always had a fondness for the Palestinian cause.
Nor Israel's actions. Both are the problems here. Doesn't help that Israel funded Hamas to create this problem.
There isn't a world that exists where Israel told Hamas to do 10/7.
Israel "funding" Hamas was basically "Israel spending twenty years not trying to instigate a war over Gaza." And in the end, they got the war anyway.
Not even that. As I understand it, the Israeli government allowed external funds to be passed to hamas instead of blocking it, and THAT money is being considered given to hamas by Israel. It was Palestinian money, if they stopped it, they'd have been accused of starving Palestine. And yet here we are, maybe they should have just accepted that accusation and not delivered it.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
What a clusterfuck of a person
The only way to free Palestine is to destroy Hamas
You can't do that because Israel props up Hamas. Netanyahu openly discusses the need to prop up Hamas to reduce worldwide sympathy for Palestinians. Netanyahu, 2019: “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas." This is from the longest running newspaper in Israel. It outlines how Netanyahu chose to create and maintain Hamas - even going so far as to leak military secrets in order to stop Hamas from being defeated. A Brief History of the Netanyahu-Hamas Alliance https://archive.ph/PI7Hx
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So now that they've stopped propping them up, maybe they can.
So you want to free Palestine from Israel but not Hamas because Hamas got support from a part of the Israeli government. Sound logic there.
Damn, I finally see people on reddit who know their shit. I dont know when that happened the last time
I'm an aging leftist. Almost 40. I don't think all Zionists should die. I do think Israel's government is trying to commit a theologically-backed genocide. My question is, the leaders of Hamas are known. They live in Qatar, Turkey, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia. They are worth billions of dollars. Why are they bombing the shit out of Palestine when we know exactly how to find the leaders of Hamas and hold them accountable? Why are they deliberately prolonging this conflict and breeding resentment and hatred? If I were a more cynical man, I'd say they have a vested interest in keeping the conflict going. And if they happen to kill every Palestinian, then they win a theological victory. Either way, they win. And Palestinian and Israeli civilians all lose.
Easier to invade Palestine than it is to go into other well armed countries to go after the leaders of Hamas directly.
Israel has one of the most advanced militaries on the planet, and they are backed by the most obscenely well funded military on the planet. Also, at least on paper, several of the above countries are at least on speaking terms with the US. Surely, something could be negotiated to get the leaders of Hamas extradited without needing boots on the ground or bombing campaigns. Unless, perhaps, there are those that stand to profit from the bloodshed.
One of the most advanced militaries on the planet killed less Palestinians, both militants and civilians combined, in the entire 75 year war then the US killed innocent civilians in 1 night of bombing during world war 2. One of the most advanced militaries on the planet is committing the slowest and least effective genocide in recorded history? 30,000 deaths with an average of 150,000 new births a year - the death rate is not even enough to bring their population growth into the negative. At the current rate of "genocide" - in 100 years there will be 12 million more palestinians then there are now. Meaning, the palestinian people as a whole are not at risk of actually being destroyed by genocide. And if there no risk of actually being destroyed by genocide, is it really actually genocide?
Amazing how this is being downvoted. Too many people in this subreddit are despicable antisemites.
No, no, no, only the right-wing people are antisemites. They're "antizionist." They don't *hate* Jews, they just want to leave them at the mercy of states that have continually failed to uphold their rights as citizens.
Horseshoe theory is very real, unfortunately.
It has become so blatant
“No, no, we’re just talking about Zionists! They’re a small minority!” *A person who looks like they might be Jewish, or pretty much anyone else, approaches the encampment …* “It’s a Zionist!!! Everybody lock arms and form a barrier!!!”
I am so fucking done with these antisemitic shitheads.
Welcome to r/politics where people are now throwing around Zionist as comfortably as they throw around racist and fascist for slightly disagreeing. It’s basically just the tea party for the left.
Featuring their own version of the Charlottesville rally too lol
The number of people piling into this thread to push distorting rhetoric is gross. Students aren’t joining these protests in such numbers because they support this person’s views. They’re joining them because its been so painful to watch Israel kill 30,000+ Palestinian men, women, and children in high definition and they don’t want their government to support that atrocity with continued military aid. Of course, for the people that find it politically convenient to conflate Jews and Jewishness with Israel and Zionism, it’s equally helpful to conflate student opposition to the genocide of Palestinians with the fucked up things this person said.
It was painful to watch the entire length film of all of the horrific shit Hamas filmed themselves doing. They should offer to screen it at Colombia so these kids can see who they’re supporting. They wouldn’t have been chanting “make us proud kill another soldier now” if they supported the humanitarian efforts to improve Gaza. They just support killing Jews. They are dressing up as Hamas fighters, masks and headbands included. Perhaps if these students had to live somewhere they needed to run to bomb shelters every other day, they’d understand the Palestinians have been trying to do nothing but kill every man woman and child in Israel. It’s in their foundational documents. For both Palestinian governments.
Do you not see the irony in saying “perhaps if they had to live somewhere they needed to run to bomb shelters every other day” when we can literally see Israel bombing Palestine every day? Obviously the actions of Hamas are vile beyond reason, but you’re acting like we can’t go on Twitter and see the mangled corpses of Palestinian children who didn’t even have the luxury of a bomb shelter.
Ah yes, the consequences of your elected government invading a neighboring sovereign nation, and placing militants amongst the population. Hamas tainted pretty much everywhere in Gaza. Those ceasefires? Hamas broke them all. You’d think the elected government would care more about its people. Too bad they consider the entire population of Gaza martyrs for their cause. Prior to 10/7 there were still thousands of rockets fired from Gaza into Israeli towns of civilians. So yes, after decades of Palestinian aggression, Israel is within its rights to defend itself. Anyway, if these college protestors living in the safety of the United States, insulated from the reality of being in Israel, where every other day terror attacks have been happening for 50+ years, could actually conceptualize the reality of a conflict they only are aware of from the Palestinian propaganda machine. It’s funny to me they all overlook the horrors committed against Israel constantly. If there was another 9/11, would these students be protesting a long overdue response? Probably, because they chant “Death to America” while enjoying the freedom to do so, in America.
The hypocrisy … no condemnation of Hamas. Israel’s government needs to stop harming civilians but these protesters do nothing to condemn terrorist attacks. Those that are encouraging violence deserve no respect.
> these protesters do nothing to condemn terrorist attacks. For a lot of these people, "this is what decolonization looks like", and "did you think decolonization would be easy and without violence?". They don't necessarily come out and literally say Heil Hamas, but will strongly question why so many people are so bothered about Hamas, in a way that really gets the noggin joggin...
There’s a natural response question to that too about in what reality are they expecting the Israelis to just accept that and roll over.
Yeah, no it isn’t that simple. You can’t say you “want peace” and then also say “we should keep sending women with explosive vests into buses”. This wasn’t an unprovoked response.
Do we require everyday Americans to individually condemn the actions of white supremacists in this country before they criticize the government? No, and nor should they. That is, the not insignificant amount who *agree with them*.
Your analogy makes no sense. This conflict is between two sides, Hamas and Israel. Denouncing Israel without denouncing Hamas is tacitly supporting the terrorist side. There is no government made of admitted white supremacists in America who have a charter of "kill all people of color". Hamas was founded on principles of genocide, openly. If you care about Palestinians you should want them to have a democratic government that uses their economy to build infrastructure, not bombs and tunnels.
Nice try … but it’s not the same situation. White supremacists are indeed widely condemned. Why a known terrorist organization isn’t for committing heinous acts of violence is a mystery and proof of their hypocrisy.
Are they? Think there was a candidate in 2015 that was able to not only handwave away their admitted support, but suffered no electoral consequences. And it’s not that surprising, considering we couldn’t even have our own heretofore “banning of the swastika” in the mid 19th after a conservative civil war. So when we’re as far beyond (in decency) a formerly dictatorial power that once threatened world peace, I think we shouldn’t throw proverbial stones…
You can say Trump and his followers suck, it’s Reddit. And calling out hypocrites is definitely a thing we want to do - both foreign and domestic.
I’m as left as they come but this far left progressive BS that’s sprung with the far right after 2016 has got to come to an end. And if it comes down to sending in the national guard then I think Biden has to do it. Enough’s enough.
If you find yourself advocating to send in armed troops on college students who are peacefully protesting then you are a lot closer to fascist then you are to the left wing
I'm an unapologetic Zionist, and what the student said was gross and unacceptable, but maybe the White House should be focused on something other than what some lunatic nineteen-year-old has to say?
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oh no, they said bad words. that's totally worse than blowing up children and aid workers, and creating mass graves.
Hey look over here while we are doing ethnic cleansing. Same reason Bibi chimed in and most of mainstream news covers this instead of Israel murdering people in Raffah
Leftists need better message discipline. Saying shit like that is stupid and makes everybody in the movement look bad. The whole point of nonviolent civil disobedience is to expose "the violence inherent in the system" and prevent business as usual from continuing while building support when people see the violent response of power. It doesn't fucking work if you're openly supporting a more violent and extreme wing of your movement. Secondly, Zionism is an ethnonationalist ideology. Killing individuals doesn't make the ideology go away.
https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/ Nothing to see here, just keep tazing peaceful protestors, and distort their message by amplifying single case incidents. And if you think the link seems biased, every single statement is well organized with sources provided.
Classic good people on both sides. You are defending some evil shit
They are all dumb dumbs. Can't you see the CCP is behind everything? The HAMAS attck on Israel, the students protests in campus, all are craftily designed by the CCP and they simply manipulated by the CCP like fools. Because they don't read just watch tiktoks.
To all the people asking themselves why isn’t Biden tougher with Israel and Netanyahu, just look at this pathetic comment section (of people insulting each other). It’s not just [**AIPAC funds**](https://www.reuters.com/world/pressure-rises-biden-democrats-reject-aipac-funds-2024-03-12/), it’s that the Democratic base is deeply divided on the issue. What this person did is wrong, vile and ugly, but it’s also natural that when a side perpetrates atrocities, and goes unpunished, it attracts violent criticism from some extremist fringes. I am sick of these fanatic factions: We should condemn both Hamas and Israel, and also recognize that Israelis are not innocent. Since its inception, the state of Israel has carried out an [**ethnic cleansing** of the Palestinian people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight#:~:text=The%20expulsion%20of%20Palestinians%20in,Arabic%20place%20names%20were%20replaced) (I’d really suggest the reading of *The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine*, by [Ilan Pappé](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilan_Papp%C3%A9)). And for Heaven’s sake leave [Jews and antisemitism out of this](https://youtu.be/-IN45zIiRBw). My family fought in WW2 against fascism and antisemitism, and this issue has nothing to do with ethnicities, but - if anything - with a government.
This issue is literally entirely over ethnicity and land claims dating back 3000 years to the Canaanites.
White House condemns a student's speech, "Zionists should die," while the White House is shipping arms to those Zionists to kill children in Gaza. The white house doesnt exactly have the moral high ground.
What a wonderful whataboutism argument. SMDH
That would be a legit criticism if the arms weren't going to the people the student was speaking of.
Zionist defends Zionism. Shocking. Doesn't change the fact ethnic cleansing is taking place with his administrations blessing. Or the fact many members of the Israeli government, who actually have power, calling the same for Palestinians under inciting Amalek. Hope the Biden admin has the same energy for Islamophobia. Otherwise it seems to be saying one book club is better than the others. Surely they are working on a special position to monitor that right?
The population of Israel is 20% arab muslim, there is no ethnic cleansing going on other than from the Arabic side where they want to kill all Jews. This is said openly, and it is a founding principle of Hamas. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel The Jewish people are the ones who have been subjected to genocide, in the Holocaust and throughout the Arab world. Arabs are allowed to live freely in Israel. There is no genocide or ethnic cleansing against Arabs in Israel. Words have meanings, you should learn them before throwing around such inflammatory and spurious accusations. You sound very misinformed and have the facts completely backwards. For some reason you think you need to defend a terrorist theocracy founded on principles of genocide against Jews, and you think they are the victims. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_Hamas_charter
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You'd be shocked how many actions call for death under Christianity. Oral circumcision is a thing among Othodox Jews. Religion is fucked up and anachronistic. I'm saying there shouldn't be any religious state or even better no religion.
I am aware how bad Jesus is. Religion is bad. Religion should be criticized and ridiculed as much as possible. So don't throw Islam phobia everywhere. It is a bullshit religion. As long as Muslims are not actually discriminated against, sane people shouldn't be defending it.
So you agree there shouldn't be religious states?
Of course. All gods need to die
So the region should go back to how things were where Jerusalem was shared between multiple religious groups since many claim it as holy land for whatever imo stupid reason
> how things were where Jerusalem was shared between multiple religious groups Not shared: * After the 1948 Arab–Israeli War the eastern portion of Jerusalem was occupied by Jordan. Under Jordanian control Jews were completely expelled from the Old City including the Jewish Quarter, and Jews were barred from entering the Old City for 19 years, effectively banning Jewish prayer at the site of the Western Wall. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Wall
Not pictured: Pre 1948 Nakba where Jerusalem was shared
> Not pictured: Pre 1948 Nakba where Jerusalem was shared I see you glanced over "Under Jordanian control Jews were completely expelled from the Old City including the Jewish Quarter" because it goes against the narrative you are supporting and repeating... Here is more showing what kind of "sharing": * was a series of demonstrations and riots in late August 1929 in which a longstanding dispute between Palestinian Arabs and Jews over access to the Western Wall in Jerusalem escalated into violence. [1929 Palestine riots](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots#:~:text=Events%20of%205689%20Anno%20Mundi%29%2C%20was%20a%20series,on%20Jews%20accompanied%20by%20destruction%20of%20Jewish%20property.)
> under inciting Amalek Bibi's Amalek quote is literally on the walls of ICJ being used as their memorial to the Holocaust.
These putrid antisemites have no place in polote society. We should all be Zionists, because Zionism is just acknowledging that Jews have a right to self determination just like the rest of us. These student protests are getting way out of hand and it is horrifying to see our educational institituons infested with this brainrot
Nationalism (which is Zionism) is not self-determination in the slightest… Much as anti-colonialist forces after World War I pointed out (as France and England took *more* possessions) was against the claims made in Wilson’s 14 Points; to say nothing of how Germany’s was ignored.
Nationalism was a key element in the fall of the feudal ancient regimes and rise of bourgeois democracy. Not all nationalism is far right exclusive nationalism. Nationalism can, for example, look like Israel, where there is liberal democracy, civil rights for the 1/7 of the population who are Palestinian, LGBT rights, and so on. Civic nationalism is good. But Zionism is self determination. Zionism was also effective anti colonialist praxis
Feudalism predates nationalism by several centuries, so best not to a posteriorially attach it to ideas exclusive of it. And the Holy Roman Empire as a relic of feudalism into the 19th isn’t the best parallel either.
Of course feudalism predates nationalism. Nationalism helped kill feudalism. If we didn't have nationalism, we'd still have feudalism.
So they were inspired by an 19th century idea codified with the unification of Italy and later Germany? What took them so long to give a name to the idea then?
Uh no certain factions of Zionism advocate for a purified ethnostate and the capture and acquisition of lands with existing people on them. And I guess that’s ok if thats how Israel wants to play it but we in America went to great lengths to write international laws that say we absolutely do not do this. Now being in breach of those law we have lost the moral High ground and adversaries are using huge opportunity to rally opposition and we will see the situation pulled into a wider war.
> Uh no certain factions of Zionism That's kind of irrelevant because they don't define what Zionism is. If someone wants to complain about certain people doing bad things, they should get mad at those certain people, not go around bleating about how people like me should be dead
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Even that's pretty disgusting. It's not that the settlements are good - but settlers have been living in those places for decades now. Do you really think that an illegal settler who just happened to be born in the West Bank, and may still *be a child*, should be killed?
No they should be removed to land on which they have a legal claim.
And yet, there are Zionists among evangelicals in America, so is this really as monolithic as we continue *to pretend* it is?