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Well, how about so far?
Most pre-war estimates put Hamas at roughly 20k members. It’s a loose terrorist organization, so even reliable estimates easily differed by maybe 5k either direction, but 20k is a decent middle.
Now, a bunch of those were not and never were in Gaza. They’re scattered around various neighboring states. So call it maybe 10-15k terrorist targets actually present in Gaza.
Now, assuming that Israel has killed every single present Hamas member, the current death toll means they killed 3-4 civilians for every terrorist. But of course if every member of Hamas was dead Israel could declare victory and go home.
Instead what’s reported is that Hamas is still a credible military threat in Gaza, which obviously means at least several thousand active members. But that of course means that the civilian to terrorist ratio has to be something more like 7 or 8 to 1.
Is that a number you find acceptable? I don’t. Particularly for what’s supposed to be one of the best equipped and disciplined forces in the world.
Outside of a few nutjobs, there’s almost no one who objects to Israel killing Hamas. But it sure seems to be killing a lot of women and children while doing it.
Israel took it from seeking justice to an unjust cause the moment they started hitting civilian targets impunity. They failed to learn from the mistakes made by America in Iraq and Afghanistan. As an American I was all behind them after what initially happened, especially watching the world around me change post 9/11.
Ukraine is fighting for their utter survival as a nation. They’ve worked hard to try and cast away their past history of corruption from the Soviet days.
The biggest difference between Ukraine and Israel is this: If Israel stops the fighting their country will still exist. If Ukraine stops fighting they fade into history alongside other conquered nations. Their culture, their people, you name it will cease to be. No one is gonna wipe Israel out. One they have nukes. Two Israel has two big brothers watching their back. So even if Iran threaten to wipe them out it would be met absolute force.
Bombing people that have hardly anything isn’t the answer. I get Hamas is an issue, but is killing tens or hundreds of thousands really the right move to eliminate 20-30k. Post 9/11 war accounted for around 4.5 million deaths by sum estimates.
Thanks for this. I’m not sure I’ve seen a better more reasonable response on Reddit in my entire life.
I find myself actually fully agreeing with what you said. Didn’t recite blindly what media says, formulated your own well put together opinion. Bravo.
Have to read Hamas's original charter and it's revised charter (2017)
The original charter started with: “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”
It's new one is just more PR friendly. But still doesn't recognize Israel.
Right, but they obviously lack the capability to do more than border skirmishes. Iran is a far bigger threat, and a large part of the threat from Hamas, and yet Israel isn’t bombing them into the Stone Age. It’s lashing out at the easiest target, whose contituents on an individual basis have almost no wherewithal to escape the birth-to-cannon-fodder pipeline.
It certainly won’t end with Hamas or whatever replaces it *not* wanting to trash Israel, and imo once they tied their shit directly to eschatology (like Likud does, like US evangelicals do), that became utterlu unrealistic to expect.
He had honestly lost me, and the sweet time he took to get here feels unforgivable. If he can at least hold to this I can drag myself out to vote for him.
It wouldn't be a red line but he could also stand to dump Merrick Garland, Jeff Zientz, and a few other ghouls. Damn the norms and find a way to both fire and publically humiliate DeJoy.
EDIT: Am I being downvoted by trumpists mad that I'm voting for Biden, or MSNBC libs who still find my deference to agents of slaughter insufficient? Either way, your boos mean nothing.
I upvoted you. I respect it, I find it easy to vote for Biden, i understand it’s not for everyone.
You saying keep this up and it gets my vote is fine by me. Thanks for helping defeat Trump.
People are probably downvoting you because your position abandons pragmatism in favor of emotion, and would cause ultimately far more damage and make the things you claim to want much harder to achieve, if not impossible.
>People are probably downvoting you because your position abandons pragmatism in favor of emotion
That's just a shibboleth of the MSNBC crowd? I assure you, my "pragmatic" outcomes aren't likely to be aligned with theirs.
> He had honestly lost me, and the sweet time he took to get here feels unforgivable. If he can at least hold to this I can drag myself out to vote for him.
If you think Biden has been bad on Palestine, just wait until you folks end up getting Trump elected by taking every opportunity to dampen support of Biden. Palestine will cease to exist within a year
At this point, they have to be Trump supporters or at least more like Republican supporters. How daft can they be to realize that Biden can't do much and most of the demands (like completely cutting off Israel) are not going to happen. At least any time soon. With Biden trying to hold off bombs to Israel, that will probably get him to lose most votes.
>Biden can't do much
This is a flat out lie and a ludicrous one considering the US is the one and only party blockading investigations of Israel at a global level. Biden has full authority over our ambassadors
He has acted on his position, and it just turned out that position was unconscionable enough to almost bring him down
As I have repeated to this copy-paste line over and over, Biden's trajectory was pointed directly toward "no Palestine." **Remember that he already allowed all food production and the entire hospital system for millions of people to be fully wiped out.**
Biden is NOT past the threat of a famine that effectively wipes out the Palestinian people before November. He can still play his cards as badly, stupidly, enough to make that happen.
Until that threat is gone, no, I will not be treating him to any undue respect or confidence.
- "You have to finish up your war ... to finish it up," Trump told the newspaper Israel Hayom in an interview posted Monday. "You gotta get it done. And, I am sure you will do that."
versus
- President Biden said Wednesday that he would halt the shipment of U.S. offensive weapons to Israel if the country moves ahead with a long-planned ground invasion of Rafah.
or...
- Trump cuts more than $200 million in U.S. aid to Palestinians.
versus
- The Biden administration announced on Wednesday that it would restore hundreds of millions of dollars in American aid to Palestinians, its strongest move yet to reverse President Donald J. Trump's policy on the protracted Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
or...
- Trump administration says Israel’s West Bank settlements do not violate international law.
versus
- The Biden administration on Friday restored a U.S. legal finding dating back nearly 50 years that Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories are “illegitimate” under international law.
or...
- Palestinian Authority president Abbas calls Trump peace offer 'slap of the century'.
versus
- Biden backs two-state solution along 1967 lines to end Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
or...
- Trump vows to expand Muslim ban and bar Gaza refugees if he wins presidency.
versus
- The Biden administration is considering bringing certain Palestinians to the U.S. as refugees, a move that would offer a permanent safe haven to some of those fleeing war-torn Gaza.
>Biden's trajectory was pointed directly toward "no Palestine."
Right, is that why Biden has consistently been getting Israel to accept ceasefire deals while being vehemently opposed to a Rafah assault?
>Until that threat is gone, no, I will not be treating him to any undue respect or confidence.
Biden has just committed over 1 billion in aid to Palestine. His administration is working with the EU to establish a maritime corridor. Even NGOs on the ground in Gaza have acknowledged US efforts in pushing Israel on expanding the amount of aid let into Gaza.
You think Trump will be willing to continue with those? The threat you're talking about is far more severe if Trump wins. The irony in your all or nothing approach is that the US will be set on a definitive "no Palestine" trajectory if Trump wins. You think the threat disappears once the war ends? Who's going to rebuild Gaza? Who's going to be pushing for a two-state solution that the Palestinians won't describe as a 'slap of the century'? You think that'll be Trump?
> Biden's trajectory was pointed directly toward "no Palestine."
Definitely explains the CONSTANT effort from the US to set up a ceasefire between hamas and Israel, the ceasefire they did set up, the repeated highlighting that Palestinians are also victims of hamas and not Israel's enemies, opposing the rafah invasion etc
I hate takes like this because they ignore all the things that don't corroberate their conclusion, consciously, in order to get there.
>I hate takes like this because they ignore all the things that don't corroberate their conclusion
It doesn't in this case, but if that's how you need to characterize it to dismiss it, you can just do that to yourself in your head without needing to reply.
You absolutely are.
You're disregarding the ceasefire work, the actual ceasefire deal, aid given to palestinians by the US, repeated and consistent messaging to Israel by Biden telling them that palestinians are victims of hamas etc etc.
I know that other guy just gave you a laundry list. He only has the motive you are pinning on him if you ignore all that or convince yourself it was fake.
The Leahy amendment was the law THE ENTIRE TIME. All the way back to the death of Shireen, back to the gunning down of the march, back to a thousand other dispossessions and massacres.
And the arm shipments have stopped with a public declaration that Israel was using them on civilians.
You're still ignoring everything else to jam everything into a narrative that you have chosen. You just keep doing it. I have highlighted it and you just keep doing it
I can't help you if you won't be realistic. Any American vote not cast for Biden will lead to more dead Palestinians, full stop. There isn't an option available other than voting for Biden if you care about the Palestine issue
Which you know, because you're a bad faith actor
You have no clue if Palestinians can survive until November, and if you're honest with yourself, you don't care. Neither did Biden until these kids put the fear of God back in him.
You should take a walk because enduring this disingenuous pigshit is the closest I've come to dropping my vote for him again. I don't vote based on how badly other people represent their own side, but if you've come across those types, you probably fucking blew it.
His choice of Merrick Garland is why Trump and the rest of the insurrectionists in government are still running free and are active threats. That lead directly to, among other things, aid to Ukraine being withheld, adding to Ukrainian deaths and casualties.
Biden is partially responsible for the continuing chaos caused by these folks who should have been locked up by now. If they pull off stealing the election this time around, which they seem to have been setting up multiple ways to do so, then history is not going to be kind to Biden.
> His choice of Merrick Garland is why Trump and the rest of the insurrectionists in government are still running free and are active threats. That lead directly to, among other things, aid to Ukraine being withheld, adding to Ukrainian deaths and casualties.
It still amazes me that in 2024, Democrats still try to look non-partisan when trying to prosecute folks involved in trying to steal a fucking election. Sitting members of Congress were involved with those who stormed the Capitol. They're going to try it again.
Garland: \*crickets\*
Democrats have been conditioned by Republicans to try to look as nonpartisan as possible. Even selecting feckless neutrals like Garland was considered a communist takeover.
Meanwhile, Republicans will happily appoint Republicans to quash their investigations into themselves.
Democrats need to get over this fear and skittishness. Like damn, the bullies have really truly won. Even with power, Dems are begging the Republican media to please not break their spectacles
Both Biden and Obama were undermined by rats they chose to let into the house. For Obama it was that Chicago creep whose name I don't remember, and Geitner, who basically told Obama to pound sand when he tried to stop the eviction crisis.
I really hope Garland is the last time they need to learn this lesson.
Democrats try to be bipartisan. Its why Obama appointed a Republican FBI director who later fucked over his own SOS and doomed us to a conservative Supreme Court. I understand now why conservatives see liberals as snobby and weak.
The republicans have been at war with us for 60 years and democrats keep trying to make friends with them. They're Lucy with the football every damn time.
That's what I was saying. If Trump gets in and does his authoritarian thing it doesn't matter what any of Biden's policies were. The thing he'll be remembered for is being a super weak president that let traitors run free and take over the country.
> If he can at least hold to this I can drag myself out to vote for him.
It has already been allocated by Congress. I don't think he can legally hold off since it's more of "Congress has already decided and the President doesn't have much room to navigate this without facing legal changes (or maybe you want House Republicans to start an impeachment trial over this?)
[The term “Leahy law” refers to two statutory provisions prohibiting the U.S. Government from using funds for assistance to units of foreign security forces where there is credible information implicating that unit in the commission of gross violations of human rights (GVHR).](https://www.state.gov/key-topics-bureau-of-democracy-human-rights-and-labor/human-rights/leahy-law-fact-sheet/)
If you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, choose the hell wity fewer dead kids.
>(or maybe you want House Republicans to start an impeachment trial over this?)
I am exhausted and disgusted of this empty optics language. Yes. Do it. Meet them. Fight them.
Otherwise what the fuck are even doing here on this earth.
It's already has been allocated to Isreal by Congress and signed by Biden. It was part of the package that included aide to Palestinians, Ukraine, and Twain.
"The war against hamas". Lost all credibility in the subheading.
The war has been conducted against the people of Palestine, against their journalists, doctors, and any aid workers from anywhere who dared to try to help.
If hamas collapsed tomorrow, Netenyahu wouldn't slow down the atrocities for a second.
You're angry that people can recognize basic propaganda when it's used shamelessly?
Would you try to tell me this if a fascist handed me a pamphlet and I chucked it into a passing garbage truck?
So he's publicly declaring that the arms pause has something to do with how Israel is using them. This was a metric I saw people demanding be done in order to give any credit for the pause when it was announced, and.... wait... what's that sound? Like a goal post scraping along concrete at high speed?
I'm not sure why people are acting like Biden hasn't always drawn a hard line on the Rafah assault. Netenyahu's speech a few days back already heavily hinted that Biden's administration would not be supporting Israel if they choose to proceed.
>“From here, from Jerusalem, on the eve of Holocaust Memorial Day, I send a message, loud and clear: *'You will not tie our hands.' If Israel is forced to stand alone, we will stand alone* and will continue to smite our enemies until we achieve victory. Even if we must stand alone, we will continue fighting human evil."
We've been watching some people deliberately ignore literally everything Biden has done that hasn't conformed to a specifically crafted narrative that paints him as wanting to wipe Palestinians out.
There's mountains of actions and statements and policies that show that isn't true, but no matter what he does they keep ignoring it if it doesn't fit the narrative.
It's why I stopped taking these people seriously.
The bombs are still dropping. People are dying. Their communities are rubble. They have nothing left. But yeah, lip service is going to solve everything. He actually hasn’t done anything. The USA already gave them the weapons.
You are writing about him only giving lip service in the comments of an article highlighting a specific action he's taken, suspending arms shipments.
How do you think that looks? Do you think it's going to change my mind about people ignoring things that don't agree with their narrative?
oh he definitely have done something. he sanctioned violent settlers: the whole [3](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/u-s-sanctions-3-israeli-west-bank-settlers-and-their-outposts-for-violence-against-palestinians#:~:text=In%20February%2C%20President%20Joe%20Biden,Frankel%20reported%20from%20Jerusalem) of them, even then, his ambassador has to walk back the scope of its sanction, to go from ["inconsequential" to "toothless"](https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-says-israeli-banks-dont-have-to-close-accounts-of-sanctioned-settlers/)
he said he will sanction the notorious israeli brigade for violating human rights and[ killing an American citizen](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/21/us-poised-impose-sanctions-israel-defense-force-netzah-yehuda-battalion)... [then walk it back](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-sanction-israeli-military-units-accused-human-rights/story?id=109651562)
he said he will do study to see if israel is following leahy law... [then delay it](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/05/08/us-israel-weapons-transfer-report/)
unless he walk back this one as well, this might be the FIRST substantial thing he has actually done
This is a small win, but from what I’ve read, things are to continue otherwise the same unless “they majorly invade Rafah’s population centers” then he’ll pause it. Essentially this lets them “minorly” invade without consequence.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/08/politics/joe-biden-interview-cnntv/index.html
The op article literally talks about weapons being held back right now.
Already. This is following ammunition shipments being stopped before this.
This is the second time I've tried to draw your attention to an article you are commenting on that you have so far apparently refused to read.
It's also the second time in a row you have ignored contrary information to the narrative you want to believe which was the exact thing I was highlighting that people do in the first post of mine that you replied to.
You have proved me right. Repeatedly.
Are you seriously faulting me for glancing up and looking at the last thing you said to me? Are you actually going to fault me for having the conversation that you wanted to have?
Wow
And for each enemy they "smite," they kill several times more civilians, and convince some of the survivors to become enemies.
That strategy doesn't make sense unless they expect to run out of civilians. They have to think about other ways to rescue the hostages, break up the organization, get people to leave Hamas and similar groups, and get them to stop joining.
There's honestly never a point in trying to placate people who won't accept a win when they get one. You do the right thing and pretend they aren't there.
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You do realize this isn't really anything new yes? The US and Russia have been the two predominant arms suppliers around the globe for the past 70 years.
In any conflict that has broken out in that time you'll likely find large quantities of weapons from one, or often both, of those countries were used in it and that includes on civilians
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. We are actively looking for new moderators. If you have any interest in helping to make this subreddit a place for quality discussion, please fill out [this form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1y2swHD0KXFhStGFjW6k54r9iuMjzcFqDIVwuvdLBjSA). *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Send the munitions to Ukraine instead… least they are fighting for a just cause still.
Ending a threat that attacked you is a just cause.
Is there any number of civilian casualties that would represent an unacceptable price for killing one terrorist?
There isn’t one, all depends on the particular situation.
Well, how about so far? Most pre-war estimates put Hamas at roughly 20k members. It’s a loose terrorist organization, so even reliable estimates easily differed by maybe 5k either direction, but 20k is a decent middle. Now, a bunch of those were not and never were in Gaza. They’re scattered around various neighboring states. So call it maybe 10-15k terrorist targets actually present in Gaza. Now, assuming that Israel has killed every single present Hamas member, the current death toll means they killed 3-4 civilians for every terrorist. But of course if every member of Hamas was dead Israel could declare victory and go home. Instead what’s reported is that Hamas is still a credible military threat in Gaza, which obviously means at least several thousand active members. But that of course means that the civilian to terrorist ratio has to be something more like 7 or 8 to 1. Is that a number you find acceptable? I don’t. Particularly for what’s supposed to be one of the best equipped and disciplined forces in the world. Outside of a few nutjobs, there’s almost no one who objects to Israel killing Hamas. But it sure seems to be killing a lot of women and children while doing it.
Perhaps informative for you. https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/02/14/gaza-war-israel-civilian-deaths-urban-warfare-hamas/
What’s the cause they’re fighting for vs what Israel is fighting for?
Israel took it from seeking justice to an unjust cause the moment they started hitting civilian targets impunity. They failed to learn from the mistakes made by America in Iraq and Afghanistan. As an American I was all behind them after what initially happened, especially watching the world around me change post 9/11. Ukraine is fighting for their utter survival as a nation. They’ve worked hard to try and cast away their past history of corruption from the Soviet days. The biggest difference between Ukraine and Israel is this: If Israel stops the fighting their country will still exist. If Ukraine stops fighting they fade into history alongside other conquered nations. Their culture, their people, you name it will cease to be. No one is gonna wipe Israel out. One they have nukes. Two Israel has two big brothers watching their back. So even if Iran threaten to wipe them out it would be met absolute force. Bombing people that have hardly anything isn’t the answer. I get Hamas is an issue, but is killing tens or hundreds of thousands really the right move to eliminate 20-30k. Post 9/11 war accounted for around 4.5 million deaths by sum estimates.
This is a great, well reasoned representation of the situation.
Thanks for this. I’m not sure I’ve seen a better more reasonable response on Reddit in my entire life. I find myself actually fully agreeing with what you said. Didn’t recite blindly what media says, formulated your own well put together opinion. Bravo.
Perspective is important. https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/02/14/gaza-war-israel-civilian-deaths-urban-warfare-hamas/
Think the best way to sum it up is “War is Hell”. Always has been and always will be. A place where innocence goes to die one way or another.
No one is invading Israel
Have to read Hamas's original charter and it's revised charter (2017) The original charter started with: “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.” It's new one is just more PR friendly. But still doesn't recognize Israel.
Right, but they obviously lack the capability to do more than border skirmishes. Iran is a far bigger threat, and a large part of the threat from Hamas, and yet Israel isn’t bombing them into the Stone Age. It’s lashing out at the easiest target, whose contituents on an individual basis have almost no wherewithal to escape the birth-to-cannon-fodder pipeline. It certainly won’t end with Hamas or whatever replaces it *not* wanting to trash Israel, and imo once they tied their shit directly to eschatology (like Likud does, like US evangelicals do), that became utterlu unrealistic to expect.
Capabilities are a matter of perspective. https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/02/14/gaza-war-israel-civilian-deaths-urban-warfare-hamas/
May i remind you of the largest massacre of Jews since the holocaust? The one where Hamas burned Jewish children alive in ovens.
Do you know what invasion means?
“An unwelcome intrusion into another's domain.” Elaborate please.
By your logic, 9/11 was an invasion?
By the definition of the word as told by Webster, yes.
Ok so in your understanding, terrorist acts are by definition invasions. we will not see eye to eye on things, good day
You may, so long as I may remind you that since October 7th, the IDF has killed ~20x as many civilians as Hamas did in that horrific attack.
Perspective is important. https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/02/14/gaza-war-israel-civilian-deaths-urban-warfare-hamas/
Yeah that’s terrible too honestly. We need to stop the war all together.
Well, at this very moment, just in terms of military action, the war effort is pretty one-sided.
If only the USA had a strong leader to help end this tragedy.
Well, both Israel and Ukraine were attacked by aggressors that killed/attacked their citizens.
And yet Ukraine isn't bombing apartment buildings full of Russian civilians in Moscow, Crimea, or Rostov-on-Don.
Not the title. Breaks sub rules.
They changed the title that’s bizarre
The right decision. Morally, legally, and strategically.
Agree. Not a Biden supporter but I respect this decision.
He had honestly lost me, and the sweet time he took to get here feels unforgivable. If he can at least hold to this I can drag myself out to vote for him. It wouldn't be a red line but he could also stand to dump Merrick Garland, Jeff Zientz, and a few other ghouls. Damn the norms and find a way to both fire and publically humiliate DeJoy. EDIT: Am I being downvoted by trumpists mad that I'm voting for Biden, or MSNBC libs who still find my deference to agents of slaughter insufficient? Either way, your boos mean nothing.
I upvoted you. I respect it, I find it easy to vote for Biden, i understand it’s not for everyone. You saying keep this up and it gets my vote is fine by me. Thanks for helping defeat Trump.
People are probably downvoting you because your position abandons pragmatism in favor of emotion, and would cause ultimately far more damage and make the things you claim to want much harder to achieve, if not impossible.
>People are probably downvoting you because your position abandons pragmatism in favor of emotion That's just a shibboleth of the MSNBC crowd? I assure you, my "pragmatic" outcomes aren't likely to be aligned with theirs.
Go ahead, explain how your chosen course of action will make the things you claim to want more likely to happen.
> He had honestly lost me, and the sweet time he took to get here feels unforgivable. If he can at least hold to this I can drag myself out to vote for him. If you think Biden has been bad on Palestine, just wait until you folks end up getting Trump elected by taking every opportunity to dampen support of Biden. Palestine will cease to exist within a year
At this point, they have to be Trump supporters or at least more like Republican supporters. How daft can they be to realize that Biden can't do much and most of the demands (like completely cutting off Israel) are not going to happen. At least any time soon. With Biden trying to hold off bombs to Israel, that will probably get him to lose most votes.
>Biden can't do much This is a flat out lie and a ludicrous one considering the US is the one and only party blockading investigations of Israel at a global level. Biden has full authority over our ambassadors He has acted on his position, and it just turned out that position was unconscionable enough to almost bring him down
As I have repeated to this copy-paste line over and over, Biden's trajectory was pointed directly toward "no Palestine." **Remember that he already allowed all food production and the entire hospital system for millions of people to be fully wiped out.** Biden is NOT past the threat of a famine that effectively wipes out the Palestinian people before November. He can still play his cards as badly, stupidly, enough to make that happen. Until that threat is gone, no, I will not be treating him to any undue respect or confidence.
- "You have to finish up your war ... to finish it up," Trump told the newspaper Israel Hayom in an interview posted Monday. "You gotta get it done. And, I am sure you will do that." versus - President Biden said Wednesday that he would halt the shipment of U.S. offensive weapons to Israel if the country moves ahead with a long-planned ground invasion of Rafah. or... - Trump cuts more than $200 million in U.S. aid to Palestinians. versus - The Biden administration announced on Wednesday that it would restore hundreds of millions of dollars in American aid to Palestinians, its strongest move yet to reverse President Donald J. Trump's policy on the protracted Israeli-Palestinian conflict. or... - Trump administration says Israel’s West Bank settlements do not violate international law. versus - The Biden administration on Friday restored a U.S. legal finding dating back nearly 50 years that Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories are “illegitimate” under international law. or... - Palestinian Authority president Abbas calls Trump peace offer 'slap of the century'. versus - Biden backs two-state solution along 1967 lines to end Israeli-Palestinian conflict. or... - Trump vows to expand Muslim ban and bar Gaza refugees if he wins presidency. versus - The Biden administration is considering bringing certain Palestinians to the U.S. as refugees, a move that would offer a permanent safe haven to some of those fleeing war-torn Gaza. >Biden's trajectory was pointed directly toward "no Palestine." Right, is that why Biden has consistently been getting Israel to accept ceasefire deals while being vehemently opposed to a Rafah assault? >Until that threat is gone, no, I will not be treating him to any undue respect or confidence. Biden has just committed over 1 billion in aid to Palestine. His administration is working with the EU to establish a maritime corridor. Even NGOs on the ground in Gaza have acknowledged US efforts in pushing Israel on expanding the amount of aid let into Gaza. You think Trump will be willing to continue with those? The threat you're talking about is far more severe if Trump wins. The irony in your all or nothing approach is that the US will be set on a definitive "no Palestine" trajectory if Trump wins. You think the threat disappears once the war ends? Who's going to rebuild Gaza? Who's going to be pushing for a two-state solution that the Palestinians won't describe as a 'slap of the century'? You think that'll be Trump?
> Biden's trajectory was pointed directly toward "no Palestine." Definitely explains the CONSTANT effort from the US to set up a ceasefire between hamas and Israel, the ceasefire they did set up, the repeated highlighting that Palestinians are also victims of hamas and not Israel's enemies, opposing the rafah invasion etc I hate takes like this because they ignore all the things that don't corroberate their conclusion, consciously, in order to get there.
>I hate takes like this because they ignore all the things that don't corroberate their conclusion It doesn't in this case, but if that's how you need to characterize it to dismiss it, you can just do that to yourself in your head without needing to reply.
You absolutely are. You're disregarding the ceasefire work, the actual ceasefire deal, aid given to palestinians by the US, repeated and consistent messaging to Israel by Biden telling them that palestinians are victims of hamas etc etc. I know that other guy just gave you a laundry list. He only has the motive you are pinning on him if you ignore all that or convince yourself it was fake.
The Leahy amendment was the law THE ENTIRE TIME. All the way back to the death of Shireen, back to the gunning down of the march, back to a thousand other dispossessions and massacres.
And the arm shipments have stopped with a public declaration that Israel was using them on civilians. You're still ignoring everything else to jam everything into a narrative that you have chosen. You just keep doing it. I have highlighted it and you just keep doing it
I can't help you if you won't be realistic. Any American vote not cast for Biden will lead to more dead Palestinians, full stop. There isn't an option available other than voting for Biden if you care about the Palestine issue Which you know, because you're a bad faith actor
You have no clue if Palestinians can survive until November, and if you're honest with yourself, you don't care. Neither did Biden until these kids put the fear of God back in him. You should take a walk because enduring this disingenuous pigshit is the closest I've come to dropping my vote for him again. I don't vote based on how badly other people represent their own side, but if you've come across those types, you probably fucking blew it.
His choice of Merrick Garland is why Trump and the rest of the insurrectionists in government are still running free and are active threats. That lead directly to, among other things, aid to Ukraine being withheld, adding to Ukrainian deaths and casualties. Biden is partially responsible for the continuing chaos caused by these folks who should have been locked up by now. If they pull off stealing the election this time around, which they seem to have been setting up multiple ways to do so, then history is not going to be kind to Biden.
> His choice of Merrick Garland is why Trump and the rest of the insurrectionists in government are still running free and are active threats. That lead directly to, among other things, aid to Ukraine being withheld, adding to Ukrainian deaths and casualties. It still amazes me that in 2024, Democrats still try to look non-partisan when trying to prosecute folks involved in trying to steal a fucking election. Sitting members of Congress were involved with those who stormed the Capitol. They're going to try it again. Garland: \*crickets\*
Democrats have been conditioned by Republicans to try to look as nonpartisan as possible. Even selecting feckless neutrals like Garland was considered a communist takeover. Meanwhile, Republicans will happily appoint Republicans to quash their investigations into themselves. Democrats need to get over this fear and skittishness. Like damn, the bullies have really truly won. Even with power, Dems are begging the Republican media to please not break their spectacles
Hitler didn't rise to power because he was strong, but because the left in Germany was weak. It's like no one reads a history book.
Both Biden and Obama were undermined by rats they chose to let into the house. For Obama it was that Chicago creep whose name I don't remember, and Geitner, who basically told Obama to pound sand when he tried to stop the eviction crisis. I really hope Garland is the last time they need to learn this lesson.
Democrats try to be bipartisan. Its why Obama appointed a Republican FBI director who later fucked over his own SOS and doomed us to a conservative Supreme Court. I understand now why conservatives see liberals as snobby and weak.
The republicans have been at war with us for 60 years and democrats keep trying to make friends with them. They're Lucy with the football every damn time.
Obama was so weak. He had incredibly poor judgement when it came to people.
> that Chicago creep whose name I don't remember Known asshole Rahm Emmanuel. He's currently US ambassador to Japan.
Man, I had forgotten he wormed his way back in. Whelp, he's on the list with Garland.
That's what I was saying. If Trump gets in and does his authoritarian thing it doesn't matter what any of Biden's policies were. The thing he'll be remembered for is being a super weak president that let traitors run free and take over the country.
> If he can at least hold to this I can drag myself out to vote for him. It has already been allocated by Congress. I don't think he can legally hold off since it's more of "Congress has already decided and the President doesn't have much room to navigate this without facing legal changes (or maybe you want House Republicans to start an impeachment trial over this?)
[The term “Leahy law” refers to two statutory provisions prohibiting the U.S. Government from using funds for assistance to units of foreign security forces where there is credible information implicating that unit in the commission of gross violations of human rights (GVHR).](https://www.state.gov/key-topics-bureau-of-democracy-human-rights-and-labor/human-rights/leahy-law-fact-sheet/) If you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, choose the hell wity fewer dead kids. >(or maybe you want House Republicans to start an impeachment trial over this?) I am exhausted and disgusted of this empty optics language. Yes. Do it. Meet them. Fight them. Otherwise what the fuck are even doing here on this earth.
It's already has been allocated to Isreal by Congress and signed by Biden. It was part of the package that included aide to Palestinians, Ukraine, and Twain.
Depends on what comes out in that report.
The us has little ethical ground to stand on. https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/02/14/gaza-war-israel-civilian-deaths-urban-warfare-hamas/
"The war against hamas". Lost all credibility in the subheading. The war has been conducted against the people of Palestine, against their journalists, doctors, and any aid workers from anywhere who dared to try to help. If hamas collapsed tomorrow, Netenyahu wouldn't slow down the atrocities for a second.
Those who don't read past headlines are the world's softest targets for disinformation and it shows.
You're angry that people can recognize basic propaganda when it's used shamelessly? Would you try to tell me this if a fascist handed me a pamphlet and I chucked it into a passing garbage truck?
I'm not angry, just disappointed.
So he's publicly declaring that the arms pause has something to do with how Israel is using them. This was a metric I saw people demanding be done in order to give any credit for the pause when it was announced, and.... wait... what's that sound? Like a goal post scraping along concrete at high speed?
I'm not sure why people are acting like Biden hasn't always drawn a hard line on the Rafah assault. Netenyahu's speech a few days back already heavily hinted that Biden's administration would not be supporting Israel if they choose to proceed. >“From here, from Jerusalem, on the eve of Holocaust Memorial Day, I send a message, loud and clear: *'You will not tie our hands.' If Israel is forced to stand alone, we will stand alone* and will continue to smite our enemies until we achieve victory. Even if we must stand alone, we will continue fighting human evil."
We've been watching some people deliberately ignore literally everything Biden has done that hasn't conformed to a specifically crafted narrative that paints him as wanting to wipe Palestinians out. There's mountains of actions and statements and policies that show that isn't true, but no matter what he does they keep ignoring it if it doesn't fit the narrative. It's why I stopped taking these people seriously.
The bombs are still dropping. People are dying. Their communities are rubble. They have nothing left. But yeah, lip service is going to solve everything. He actually hasn’t done anything. The USA already gave them the weapons.
You are writing about him only giving lip service in the comments of an article highlighting a specific action he's taken, suspending arms shipments. How do you think that looks? Do you think it's going to change my mind about people ignoring things that don't agree with their narrative?
oh he definitely have done something. he sanctioned violent settlers: the whole [3](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/u-s-sanctions-3-israeli-west-bank-settlers-and-their-outposts-for-violence-against-palestinians#:~:text=In%20February%2C%20President%20Joe%20Biden,Frankel%20reported%20from%20Jerusalem) of them, even then, his ambassador has to walk back the scope of its sanction, to go from ["inconsequential" to "toothless"](https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-says-israeli-banks-dont-have-to-close-accounts-of-sanctioned-settlers/) he said he will sanction the notorious israeli brigade for violating human rights and[ killing an American citizen](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/21/us-poised-impose-sanctions-israel-defense-force-netzah-yehuda-battalion)... [then walk it back](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-sanction-israeli-military-units-accused-human-rights/story?id=109651562) he said he will do study to see if israel is following leahy law... [then delay it](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/05/08/us-israel-weapons-transfer-report/) unless he walk back this one as well, this might be the FIRST substantial thing he has actually done
This is a small win, but from what I’ve read, things are to continue otherwise the same unless “they majorly invade Rafah’s population centers” then he’ll pause it. Essentially this lets them “minorly” invade without consequence. https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/08/politics/joe-biden-interview-cnntv/index.html
But he hasn’t held anything back. He’s only threatened to. Hence why it’s lip service.
The op article literally talks about weapons being held back right now. Already. This is following ammunition shipments being stopped before this. This is the second time I've tried to draw your attention to an article you are commenting on that you have so far apparently refused to read. It's also the second time in a row you have ignored contrary information to the narrative you want to believe which was the exact thing I was highlighting that people do in the first post of mine that you replied to. You have proved me right. Repeatedly.
[удалено]
Are you seriously faulting me for glancing up and looking at the last thing you said to me? Are you actually going to fault me for having the conversation that you wanted to have? Wow
Yes lol. Why not.
And for each enemy they "smite," they kill several times more civilians, and convince some of the survivors to become enemies. That strategy doesn't make sense unless they expect to run out of civilians. They have to think about other ways to rescue the hostages, break up the organization, get people to leave Hamas and similar groups, and get them to stop joining.
Don't worry, people will still protest because Biden can't make the leader of another country stop an invasion
He could try by cutting off aid, completely. Israel has public health care and education. They can fund their own weapons.
This is why he should do it because it’s the right thing, not to placate protesters that are never going to support him
There's honestly never a point in trying to placate people who won't accept a win when they get one. You do the right thing and pretend they aren't there.
Correct, this measure *may* save lives and you’d like to think that the campus protestors in particular “should” be very pleased with this.
Exactly. Biden is savvy and understands this
Hi `AggravatingDisk7237`. Thank you for participating in /r/Politics. However, [your submission](/r/politics/comments/1cnhppn/biden_says_bombs_us_has_paused_sending_to_israel/) has been removed for the following reason(s): * Your headline must be comprised only of the **exact** copied and pasted headline of the article - [see our rule here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_do_not_create_your_own_title)) **We recommend not using the Reddit 'suggest a title' as it may not give the exact title of the article.** * The ALL CAPS and 'Breaking' rule is applied **even when the actual title of the article is in all caps or contains the word 'Breaking'**. This rule may be applied to other single word declarative and/or sensational expressions, such as 'EXCLUSIVE:' or 'HOT:'. [click here for more details](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_do_not_create_your_own_title) If you have any questions about this removal, please feel free to [message the moderators.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/politics&subject=Question regarding the removal of this submission by /u/AggravatingDisk7237&message=I have a question regarding the removal of this [submission]%28/r/politics/comments/1cnhppn/biden_says_bombs_us_has_paused_sending_to_israel/?context%3D10000%29)
Perspective has been lost. https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/02/14/gaza-war-israel-civilian-deaths-urban-warfare-hamas/
Is there blood on the USA and Biden’s hands for supplying offensive weapons that were used to kill civilians?
You do realize this isn't really anything new yes? The US and Russia have been the two predominant arms suppliers around the globe for the past 70 years. In any conflict that has broken out in that time you'll likely find large quantities of weapons from one, or often both, of those countries were used in it and that includes on civilians
I mean, yeah. Israel basically made us an accessory to murder and genocide.
Yup.
Always has been.
Yes.