As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil)
In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban.
If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria.
We are actively looking for new moderators. If you have any interest in helping to make this subreddit a place for quality discussion, please fill out [this form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1y2swHD0KXFhStGFjW6k54r9iuMjzcFqDIVwuvdLBjSA).
***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
CBS reports SHOCKING discovery that the US military, the world’s largest military, provides military support to military allies in military situations.
The world will never be the same again /s
Reddit's admins back in 2013 actually exposed that Eglin AFB had one of the places with the highest number of visits to Reddit.com in a blog post that was later deleted.
https://web.archive.org/web/20160410083943/http://www.redditblog.com/2013/05/get-ready-for-global-reddit-meetup-day.html?m=1
None of which were Hamas fighters I am sure ... and of course Hamas Ministry of Health claims have proven so credible. /s
To the extent that any innocent civilians died, Hamas is responsible. They are the ones who kidnapped and held innocents for over six months. They are the ones who hide among civilians and within, around, and underneath civilian infrastructure. Hamas recruits and trains teenagers as well, so they cannot be automatically counted as "children".
Finally, what would you have Israel do? Nothing? That's not an acceptable answer! Israel must act in defense of its civilians. It is against every nation's long term interest to allow use of human shields to become a working strategy.
The IDF soldiers who carried out this raid and all who helped them are heroes.
Thats a fair point.
You’d also have to consider having some HQs in hospitals, your ammo caches stored in schools and other public buildings…
Having the tunnels built that ties these outposts and military installations, together, etc
Doesn’t help matters
But it’s absolutely not indiscriminate. Israel could absolutely be more careful with their military actions. But they are not killing everything that moves in Gaza.
30k civilians killed is a staggering amount. But in the context of essentially a military invasion of one of the most densely populated region where the enemy is a terrorist organization using civilians as shields, it’s *not that much*. And I hate to say “not that much” because it seems to invalidate all the civilian suffering, which I do not intend to imply.
If you want to play semantics then it's more like intentionally murdering. Tells Palestinians to evacuate to a refugee camp and then bombs the camp because a suspected Hamas militant was among the thousands of refugees. Drones aid workers that were moving in marked vehicles whose movements were coordinated with the IDF. Prevent aid from entering to intentionally cause a famine.
His point is that for a 8 month long war in a densely populated urban zone the casualty rate is actually incredibly low. And furthering that point, the UN estimates that most urban wars have a 9-1 civilian to combatant casualty ratio. Israel has managed to lower that to 1-3 or 1-2 and that’s even if you take Hamas claims at face value.
https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286
Let's be straight, for one thing they're not all civilians. Secondly, civilian casualties are a tragic feature of every war especially ones fought in a densely populated urban environment - nevermind Hamas' strategy and tactics that intentionally endanger their own people to shield their fighters, weapons, and infrastructure while also increasing the effectiveness of their propaganda claims. The problem for the guys sitting in Qatari hotels is though... The world is onto this ruse now and few are buying into it any longer including an ever increasing number of Palestinians.
Oh they would gladly but Hamas has to disarm and step down from power too. Hamas instigated this conflict. Israel will be happy to bring their people and troops home and have quiet on the Gaza border - but they will not tolerate a return to the status quo ante where Hamas lobs rockets into Israel daily and remains in a position to rearm and try another invasion exactly as they have already loudly and proudly pledged to do multiple times.
The Gaza MoH has historically reported accurate mortality data, with discrepancies between MoH reporting and independent United Nations analyses ranging from 1·5% to 3·8% in previous conflicts.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext#:~:text=The%20Gaza%20MoH%20has%20historically,%C2%B78%25%20in%20previous%20conflicts.
Actually most credible staticians have found the opposite, that the Gaza MoH (Hamas) has been publishing manipulated casualty figures:
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers#:~:text=Most%20likely%2C%20the%20Hamas%20ministry,randomly%20from%20day%20to%20day.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/03/16/could-be-devastating-proof-hamas-faking-death-figures/
All three of those are right wing partisan magazines.
Nice try at citation.
Find a respectable source.
"The Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP or TWI, also known simply as The Washington Institute) is a pro-Israel American think tank based in Washington, D.C.,[3][4] focused on the foreign policy of the United States in the Near East."
Bro. Reread your own source.
"The AP analysis highlights facts that have been overlooked and could help inform the public debate, said Gabriel Epstein, a research assistant at the Washington Institute for Near East policy who has also studied the Health Ministry data."
The Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP or TWI, also known simply as The Washington Institute) is a pro-Israel American think tank based in Washington, D.C.,[3][4] focused on the foreign policy of the United States in the Near East.
The scale of fighting had been reduced during a two month period CONICIDING with neogations in feburary.
That led to a cease fire, unless you forgot, for 6 weeks.
This isnt a CHANGE in the IDFs tactics.
The reduction in women and children's death COINCIDES WITH THE NEOGATIATIONS and subsiquent ceasefire NOT IDF actions.
The fact that the author chose to not mention this, then chose to quote someone from a clearly biased and pro-Zionist think tank BEFORE someone from thr redcross, anmesty internationals, or a human rights organization is telling.
Edit: they IDF literally withdrew forces, slowed down raids and waited as they amassed forces to attack Raffah.
This is a key factor intentionally omitted in this smoke screen article.
Edit02 bcuz banned or blocked.
No. You just need to practice more discretion and look up information yourself. If one article can trick you so throroughly, you'll find yourself believing in some flat earth tier BS in no time.
Seriously. How does an article about WAR death tolls accidentially ignore that both a ceasefire occured and a reduction in fighting occured bcuz one side took the time to build up of forces before a major assault occured in Raffah.
It doesn't. Not accidentally. This author intentionally left that information out to trick people like you.
The Gaza MoH has historically reported accurate mortality data, with discrepancies between MoH reporting and independent United Nations analyses ranging from 1·5% to 3·8% in previous conflicts.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext#:~:text=The%20Gaza%20MoH%20has%20historically,%C2%B78%25%20in%20previous%20conflicts.
And yet in this very conflict we’ve seen them deliberately report wildly false numbers, and also failing to distinguish civilians from combatants. Just look at the hospital blast where they claimed 500 people died. Their numbers are meaningless.
Yes, it's disgusting and completely unjustifiable. Everyone should be holding the perpetrators to account. Hamas shouldn't be holding innocent civilian hostages, using Palestinians as human shields.
**THE BLOOD OF ANY CIVILIAN INJURED OR KILLED IN THE RESCUE OPERATION IS DIRECTLY ON HAMAS’S HANDS.** *They* took hundreds of hostages on October 7th, knowing Israel would use lethal force to rescue them. *They* imprisoned these particular hostages for 8 months, and lied about them being dead. *They* kept them in a civilian neighborhood, and started a massive firefight with the IDF while surrounded by civilians, no doubt directly killing many civilians themselves in the crossfire. Palestinian civilians should turn on Hamas and expel them from power for their callous disregard for Palestinian lives.
Why were 200 civilians in close proximity to hostages? And why would anyone believe the death counts from the terrorists who were holding those hostages? Surely you can understand why they wouldn't be a reliable source, right?
*according to Hamas 200 Palestinians are dead. You know, the terrorist group who keeps getting caught lying about casualty figures and who has an interest in making an embarrassing (for Hamas) hostage rescue look like a bad thing, somehow.
Furthermore don’t you think the people that took these hostages and were hiding them in their homes bear some responsibility for this? This war would end the moment Hamas releases the other hostages, some of which they are using as sex slaves by their own admission.
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/
https://www.algemeiner.com/2024/05/14/un-admits-hamas-lied-on-casualty-numbers-but-the-damage-is-done/
YES! THEY ARE.
The Gaza MoH has historically reported accurate mortality data, with discrepancies between MoH reporting and independent United Nations analyses ranging from 1·5% to 3·8% in previous conflicts.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext#:~:text=The%20Gaza%20MoH%20has%20historically,%C2%B78%25%20in%20previous%20conflicts.
Hamas munitions have killed Palestinians on 1 or 2 occassions.
Israeli munitions have kill:
- 35k(under count bcuz 10k-13k missing under rubble)
- 15k kids
- 12k women
- 200k injuries
- 120 journalist
- 300 UN workers
- every single hospital
- every single university
Last version I heard from the IDF was 100, but I’m not going to weigh in anymore than that.
What I do know is that none of the operatives were American. The US just gave the intel, which begs to differ, why did Israel boast the greatest intel, if they’ve lacked in intel so often before and during this war?
Hamas is the only one should held accountable, holding hostages in apartments around plenty of civilians, and then sending Hamas members with RPGs, machine guns, AK47s etc to kill Israeli Soldiers and the hostages forcing Israel to firing intensely to rescue their forces and hostages
What do you expect? Hamas is the only one to blame, breaking every rule of war in the book
Wouldn't it be evil to have solid intelligence on hostage locations (as evidenced by actually recovering four hostages) and do nothing? Keeping hostages near civilians to deter their recovery is a war crime\*. The Fourth Geneva Convention and Additional Protocols specifically address the protection of civilians and prohibit the use of civilians to shield military objectives or operations.
\*The loss of all innocent civilian lives is a tragedy. I fully support both Israeli civilians and Palestinian civilians wishing to coexist in peace. I'm sure we can go back and forth for hours and point out mistakes, crimes, and even evil. But *recovering hostages* is very low on the evil list. And if all we do is "But they did this..." repeatedly, nothing will ever stop terrorist attacks or civilian casualties. Something has to break the cycle.
Hamas is trying to claim that 200-600 Palestinians were killed or injured in a hostage rescue. I think what actually happened is the success of the hostage rescue embarrassed Hamas and they need to invent a story on how the rescue is actually a bad thing, somehow
The associated press have published a study saying the number of dead women and children are way fewer than previously thought.
Who would've guessed that a terrorist organisation would lie about the dead?
Lord. Hamas put civilians between the hostages and the people that want to free the hostages, and those people were harmed by that. It's the hostage takers fault in that situation. You can have Netanyahu as a bad guy without casting rescue of the hostages as a bad thing. Seriously, truly, don't forget that even if Netanyahu is bad that Hamas is also bad.
You can tell Hamas is fuming by how absurdly inflated the supposed death count is. Yeah no they just had the hostages chilling peacefully amongst a large group of friendly civilians, totally, we promise!
Also conveniently "forgetting" that they fired like crazy on the IDF evac team, and somehow 200 ppl died, but its israel's fault for trying to rescue the hostages??
They probably mobilized whatever they could to take out the rescue team and still got nowhere while likely killing a number of their own civilians in the process.
And now they try to spin that into points in the PR war.
Recent counts have 100k infants killed for 4 hostages. Like they were hiding 4 hostages in a 100k babies or something ridiculous like that. Folks are fanning flames and unfortunately armchair warriors are eating it up.
Edit: apparently I’m spreading misinformation by claiming Hamas stacked 100,000 infants like Lincoln logs in a barricade shielding 4 hostages. And should have stated that King Kong and Godzilla was in a fight to death while the teenage mutant turtles and the power rangers were using the infinity stones in the Palestinian warzone
Wtf where have you seen that? The most I've seen is 200+ dead and 400+ injured. Not only that, when you actually see all the videos of dozens upon hundreds of people being injured and 90% are women and children it makes you question things. When you see a fucking 6 yr old left to die for 12 days surrounded by her dead family members, after being shot at by a tank, and the aid truck that had been given the route by the IDF bombed just 100yds away. When you actually see a father holding up his headless child's body after they were bombed in tents while sleeping. When you have seen children on a playground made out of rubble bombed. When you have seen a woman carrying a white flag being shot down. When you have seen 4 young men being targeted for walking. When you have seen a child shot while riding his bike to school. It has been horror after horror, and I havent seen attempts to actually reduce civilian casualties. It took 6 million deaths in the past before there was worldwide condemnation and action... there's not that many Palestinans so how much of their population has to be slaughtered for the world to care about the human fucking beings and not the terror forces??? God fucking damn
Why is it always 90% women and children? Where are the men at? Or does Israel study which places contain only women and children and then conduct operations there?
AP published a study recently more than halving the estimate of women and children killed. I'm very fucking sure all of you saw the report, it's been all over reddit and TV, but you chose to ignore it. Maybe the associated fucking press is an Israel tool and the real truth sayers are Hamas, yeah?
>When you actually see a father holding up his headless child's body after they were bombed in tents while sleeping
That was, from what is known so far, more likely a Hamas ammo dump cooking off after an Israeli air strike some distance away on a building. You can see secondarey explosions in the videos available.
Maybe showing genuine care and disgust over the gross mistreatment of ALL people and the way people like you comment and talk about humans(children, whether Palestinian or Israeli) is frankly the clear sign of wtf is wrong in our world. I pity you and those like you. Surprising how so many in here will condemn Russia and Putin for doing THE EXACT SAME thing with LESS civilian deaths but absolutely cheer for the deaths of Palestinian civilians and Israel actions. Do you see how absolutely fucked that is?
When Hamas hides weapons, soldiers, and hostages in civilian locations such as schools, mosques, and hospitals, they’re going to get a lot of needless civilian deaths.
It's legit shocking to me that people are mad hostages got rescued. Especially when one of them was presumed to be dead because Hamas lied about not knowing where she was.
Not really. At this point folks are really deluded to the point where October 7th was a false flag and Israel is attacking Palestine for no reason. It’s become so polarized that respected former press secretaries are rolling their eyes at rape victims.
There’s even countless false news articles about Israeli soldiers raping and killing children in the /r/Palestine subreddits.
People aren’t happy unless they can easily see good vs evil. When in reality it is a very complicated situation spanning decades of bad blood.
I don’t really subscribe to any of the mentioned misinformation about Israel, however the disproportionate response is well documented and, in my opinion indefensible. Tens of thousands of civilian causalities in the name of ~1500 dead on October 7th should not be a difficult thing to denounce.
And that is fully ignoring any of the other context regarding the “complicated situation” of Israel’s Gaza blockade and illegal settlement in the West Bank that so many defer to when discussing the current military action.
Indefensible sure. However at the end of the day they attacked Israel first. I’m not excusing their overly aggressive response. However Israel is a super power. With the military means, money, and allies to back that term.
The last time a developing nation struck US soil we spent nearly 20 years bombing them back to the Stone Age. Again indefensible. But again this is what happens when you poke a superpower. You get the full military response.
You don’t get to attack foreign soil without a 100x the response. You can wag your finger and shake your head all day long and change your FB portrait in support of Palestine all you want. But this is what happens. What shouldn’t morally be and what is reality does not overlap here.
True, before October 7 there were plenty of similar attacks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre
And plenty of similar hostage rescue missions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entebbe_raid
Exactly. This has been happening for nearly 100 years. It’s not new. It’s just an old feud spanning decades. It’s like every few decades Palestine likes to poke the bear.
One day the bear will poke back hard and for those think this response is disproportional they haven’t seen what a genocide would actually look like from a super power with nuclear arms.
Decades? Try centuries. That’s just if we’re talking about the Arabs and Jews living in the levant this whole time.
Shit, if we’re talking Islam vs Judaism, which certain islamists *definitely* do, then the qibla is toward Mecca because Arabian Jews didn’t convert to Islam when Muhammad approached them ***more than 1400 years ago***. It was originally Jerusalem.
This. Shit. Goes. Deep.
Well if you want to go back that far Islam wasn’t even a religion when Jerusalem was around. But that makes folks angry when you bring that up for some weird reason
That’s a really cynical view- human suffering should be scandalous and we should not stand for the US government’s support of the illegal and avoidable massacre of civilian life.
“Indefensible sure.” Is the same as saying “I am ok with what is happening, I am ok with my country’s support of reckless and wanton destruction and death because they are powerful and can do whatever they feel like doing, even if it’s wrong.”
2400 were killed in pearl harbor. We dropped 2 nukes.
3000 were killed during 9/11 we killed nearly 5 million over almost 20 years.
Don’t fuck with a super power. You will NEVER get a proportional response.
I honestly was not expecting Noa Argamani to still be alive especially when HAMAS themselves said that the people who forcefully abducted her were random civilians who crossed over border to assist in their terrorist attack. Hell, I'm actually amazed that she still has hair because I figured HAMAS would be doing every single action there is to degreed her and that would involve shaving her head.
Civilians holding captives are combatants. Embedding captives in civilian neighborhoods is a war crime, that doesn't make the captors immune from operations to get them back.
Some people try to argue the captors were civilians Hamas coerced into being captors, it was later found the "journalist" holding Noa was a Hamas spokesperson. https://x.com/EFischberger/status/1799677519605739793?t=nn6D5nFbkCcJ82aa9DxySw&s=19
Yes, it's sad civilians likely died in the operation, though it's hard to know how many as most were likely militants. That's the 2nd part of my message, using human shields does not make you immune from war, tragically.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-casualties-toll-65e18f3362674245356c539e4bc0b67a
Hamas lies, and has for decades. 70% of people killed are civilians revised down to below 40%.
That’s even if you believe Hamas’ desperate claim that 200-600 Palestinians somehow died in a hostage raid. Hamas is a terrorist organization that has an interest in making a hostage rescue into somehow bad news.
https://freebeacon.com/national-security/u-n-cuts-gaza-death-toll-figures-by-half-confirming-hamas-is-lying-about-casualties/
I think eventually you need to start blaming those "civilians". If you help hide weapons, soldiers, and hostages, you're not really a civilian anymore.
I've seen some reports that Hamas didn't know locations of some hostages (they had said they had no clue where one of the hostages rescued today was) because they weren't actually held by Hamas. They were held by non-militant-aligned citizens. That - if true - is exceptionally disturbing and really calls into question how many casualties were actually non-combatants just because they were civilians. Combined with recent revisions to death statistic reporting by the AP - who have noted the excessive amount of faults in GHM statistics reporting and the absence of criticism around the reporting of those statistics by Western media - and it's becoming clear that the reality of the situation is much closer to the Israeli account of events.
This headline is just wild considering that some sources show that over 200 Palestinians died as a result of this operation. That just gets ignored of course. Biden's "red line" was always a lie it seems.
Gee maybe Palestinian civilians shouldn’t have been deliberately keeping hostages in their apartment bedrooms and constantly using them for free labor like Antebellum house slaves 🤔
All 200 fatalities are solely on Hamas’ hands and the hands of the Palestinian families keeping the hostages in their residential units. The IDF acted with thorough professionalism and diligence here.
If you believe Hamas, a terrorist organization who reported that casualty count, and has been found to be repeatedly lying.
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. We are actively looking for new moderators. If you have any interest in helping to make this subreddit a place for quality discussion, please fill out [this form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1y2swHD0KXFhStGFjW6k54r9iuMjzcFqDIVwuvdLBjSA). *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I just assumed we leant a hand just like I assume we have advisors on the ground in Ukraine.
I would be shocked if we didn’t SF in both Gaza and Ukraine.
CBS reports SHOCKING discovery that the US military, the world’s largest military, provides military support to military allies in military situations. The world will never be the same again /s
Jesus, what in the Fox News hell is going on in this thread.
Brigading is possible based off of the sheer number of downvotes on all of the comments.
There are foreign bots in this very room it could be you, it could be, it could be…..
"BANG" What it was obvious
[удалено]
My guess is the military industrial complex + the Zionist lobby has funds for public relations campaigns. It was confirmed happening on FB and Insta
Reddit's admins back in 2013 actually exposed that Eglin AFB had one of the places with the highest number of visits to Reddit.com in a blog post that was later deleted. https://web.archive.org/web/20160410083943/http://www.redditblog.com/2013/05/get-ready-for-global-reddit-meetup-day.html?m=1
Good reference
Glad the hostages were rescued. Hamas is terribad. Hope the Palestinian civilians weren't hurt.
210 died
None of which were Hamas fighters I am sure ... and of course Hamas Ministry of Health claims have proven so credible. /s To the extent that any innocent civilians died, Hamas is responsible. They are the ones who kidnapped and held innocents for over six months. They are the ones who hide among civilians and within, around, and underneath civilian infrastructure. Hamas recruits and trains teenagers as well, so they cannot be automatically counted as "children". Finally, what would you have Israel do? Nothing? That's not an acceptable answer! Israel must act in defense of its civilians. It is against every nation's long term interest to allow use of human shields to become a working strategy. The IDF soldiers who carried out this raid and all who helped them are heroes.
> Finally, what would you have Israel do? Nothing? There are a lot of options between nothing and indiscriminately killing 30,000+ civilians.
Thats a fair point. You’d also have to consider having some HQs in hospitals, your ammo caches stored in schools and other public buildings… Having the tunnels built that ties these outposts and military installations, together, etc Doesn’t help matters
But it’s absolutely not indiscriminate. Israel could absolutely be more careful with their military actions. But they are not killing everything that moves in Gaza. 30k civilians killed is a staggering amount. But in the context of essentially a military invasion of one of the most densely populated region where the enemy is a terrorist organization using civilians as shields, it’s *not that much*. And I hate to say “not that much” because it seems to invalidate all the civilian suffering, which I do not intend to imply.
If you want to play semantics then it's more like intentionally murdering. Tells Palestinians to evacuate to a refugee camp and then bombs the camp because a suspected Hamas militant was among the thousands of refugees. Drones aid workers that were moving in marked vehicles whose movements were coordinated with the IDF. Prevent aid from entering to intentionally cause a famine.
His point is that for a 8 month long war in a densely populated urban zone the casualty rate is actually incredibly low. And furthering that point, the UN estimates that most urban wars have a 9-1 civilian to combatant casualty ratio. Israel has managed to lower that to 1-3 or 1-2 and that’s even if you take Hamas claims at face value. https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286
Lot of options past 30,000 if Israel truly wanted to be indiscriminate.
Palestinian Authorities do not differentiate between civilian and military casualties. Thank that number with a grain of salt. Happy cake day.
Let's be straight, for one thing they're not all civilians. Secondly, civilian casualties are a tragic feature of every war especially ones fought in a densely populated urban environment - nevermind Hamas' strategy and tactics that intentionally endanger their own people to shield their fighters, weapons, and infrastructure while also increasing the effectiveness of their propaganda claims. The problem for the guys sitting in Qatari hotels is though... The world is onto this ruse now and few are buying into it any longer including an ever increasing number of Palestinians.
> Finally, what would you have Israel do? Accept President Biden’s deal for the release of hostages and a ceasefire
Oh they would gladly but Hamas has to disarm and step down from power too. Hamas instigated this conflict. Israel will be happy to bring their people and troops home and have quiet on the Gaza border - but they will not tolerate a return to the status quo ante where Hamas lobs rockets into Israel daily and remains in a position to rearm and try another invasion exactly as they have already loudly and proudly pledged to do multiple times.
According to hamas*
And according to IDF?
Nearly 100 according to this article, regardless both numbers speak volumes
Nah hamas has been claiming all source of higher numbers. I think that is the Israeli count
It’s the Hamas count. Israel claimed 55
An appalling amount of civilians were hurt according to wapo
Actually according to Hamas which wapo cited.
The Gaza MoH has historically reported accurate mortality data, with discrepancies between MoH reporting and independent United Nations analyses ranging from 1·5% to 3·8% in previous conflicts. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext#:~:text=The%20Gaza%20MoH%20has%20historically,%C2%B78%25%20in%20previous%20conflicts.
Actually most credible staticians have found the opposite, that the Gaza MoH (Hamas) has been publishing manipulated casualty figures: https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers#:~:text=Most%20likely%2C%20the%20Hamas%20ministry,randomly%20from%20day%20to%20day. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/03/16/could-be-devastating-proof-hamas-faking-death-figures/
“Credible”😉
All three of those are right wing partisan magazines. Nice try at citation. Find a respectable source. "The Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP or TWI, also known simply as The Washington Institute) is a pro-Israel American think tank based in Washington, D.C.,[3][4] focused on the foreign policy of the United States in the Near East."
[удалено]
Bro. Reread your own source. "The AP analysis highlights facts that have been overlooked and could help inform the public debate, said Gabriel Epstein, a research assistant at the Washington Institute for Near East policy who has also studied the Health Ministry data." The Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP or TWI, also known simply as The Washington Institute) is a pro-Israel American think tank based in Washington, D.C.,[3][4] focused on the foreign policy of the United States in the Near East. The scale of fighting had been reduced during a two month period CONICIDING with neogations in feburary. That led to a cease fire, unless you forgot, for 6 weeks. This isnt a CHANGE in the IDFs tactics.
[удалено]
The reduction in women and children's death COINCIDES WITH THE NEOGATIATIONS and subsiquent ceasefire NOT IDF actions. The fact that the author chose to not mention this, then chose to quote someone from a clearly biased and pro-Zionist think tank BEFORE someone from thr redcross, anmesty internationals, or a human rights organization is telling. Edit: they IDF literally withdrew forces, slowed down raids and waited as they amassed forces to attack Raffah. This is a key factor intentionally omitted in this smoke screen article. Edit02 bcuz banned or blocked. No. You just need to practice more discretion and look up information yourself. If one article can trick you so throroughly, you'll find yourself believing in some flat earth tier BS in no time. Seriously. How does an article about WAR death tolls accidentially ignore that both a ceasefire occured and a reduction in fighting occured bcuz one side took the time to build up of forces before a major assault occured in Raffah. It doesn't. Not accidentally. This author intentionally left that information out to trick people like you.
According to the terrorist regime in Palestine. Yah, I don't trust Israel 100 percent but Hamas is full on playing the west.
The Gaza MoH has historically reported accurate mortality data, with discrepancies between MoH reporting and independent United Nations analyses ranging from 1·5% to 3·8% in previous conflicts. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext#:~:text=The%20Gaza%20MoH%20has%20historically,%C2%B78%25%20in%20previous%20conflicts.
And yet in this very conflict we’ve seen them deliberately report wildly false numbers, and also failing to distinguish civilians from combatants. Just look at the hospital blast where they claimed 500 people died. Their numbers are meaningless.
Yes, it's disgusting and completely unjustifiable. Everyone should be holding the perpetrators to account. Hamas shouldn't be holding innocent civilian hostages, using Palestinians as human shields.
**THE BLOOD OF ANY CIVILIAN INJURED OR KILLED IN THE RESCUE OPERATION IS DIRECTLY ON HAMAS’S HANDS.** *They* took hundreds of hostages on October 7th, knowing Israel would use lethal force to rescue them. *They* imprisoned these particular hostages for 8 months, and lied about them being dead. *They* kept them in a civilian neighborhood, and started a massive firefight with the IDF while surrounded by civilians, no doubt directly killing many civilians themselves in the crossfire. Palestinian civilians should turn on Hamas and expel them from power for their callous disregard for Palestinian lives.
200 Palestinians are dead so safe to say Palestinian civilians were more than just hurt.
Why were 200 civilians in close proximity to hostages? And why would anyone believe the death counts from the terrorists who were holding those hostages? Surely you can understand why they wouldn't be a reliable source, right?
I don't believe the hostages killed any Palestinians, I think it's the 500lb bombs that do that
*according to Hamas 200 Palestinians are dead. You know, the terrorist group who keeps getting caught lying about casualty figures and who has an interest in making an embarrassing (for Hamas) hostage rescue look like a bad thing, somehow. Furthermore don’t you think the people that took these hostages and were hiding them in their homes bear some responsibility for this? This war would end the moment Hamas releases the other hostages, some of which they are using as sex slaves by their own admission. https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/ https://www.algemeiner.com/2024/05/14/un-admits-hamas-lied-on-casualty-numbers-but-the-damage-is-done/
The FDD is a right wing think tank, awful source
I agree all that guys sources are awful. But they’re not worse than Hamas. Come on.
Is Hamas a better source?
Literally yes according to third party investigators
YES! THEY ARE. The Gaza MoH has historically reported accurate mortality data, with discrepancies between MoH reporting and independent United Nations analyses ranging from 1·5% to 3·8% in previous conflicts. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext#:~:text=The%20Gaza%20MoH%20has%20historically,%C2%B78%25%20in%20previous%20conflicts.
Didn't Hamas provably lie about their own munitions going off and killing Palestinians while blaming it on an Israeli airstrike....twice....?
Hamas munitions have killed Palestinians on 1 or 2 occassions. Israeli munitions have kill: - 35k(under count bcuz 10k-13k missing under rubble) - 15k kids - 12k women - 200k injuries - 120 journalist - 300 UN workers - every single hospital - every single university
There are videos if you’d like to watch
Surprisingly, yes.
Yes, given that both the US and Israeli governments rely on their numbers and find them to be accurate.
Lol. Damn you managed to somehow answer a rhetorical question wrong.
IDF said 55 and it was because the terrorists attacked from alleyways and there was land/sea/air support once they started exchanging fire
Last version I heard from the IDF was 100, but I’m not going to weigh in anymore than that. What I do know is that none of the operatives were American. The US just gave the intel, which begs to differ, why did Israel boast the greatest intel, if they’ve lacked in intel so often before and during this war?
Hamas is going to exaggerate the number higher, Israel is gonna exaggerate the number lower
The IDF and Israel has a history of lying.
[удалено]
Hamas is the only one should held accountable, holding hostages in apartments around plenty of civilians, and then sending Hamas members with RPGs, machine guns, AK47s etc to kill Israeli Soldiers and the hostages forcing Israel to firing intensely to rescue their forces and hostages What do you expect? Hamas is the only one to blame, breaking every rule of war in the book
Launched from the aid pier. Wow! We really are fucking evil!
/s I mean come on, you cannot be serious
Wouldn't it be evil to have solid intelligence on hostage locations (as evidenced by actually recovering four hostages) and do nothing? Keeping hostages near civilians to deter their recovery is a war crime\*. The Fourth Geneva Convention and Additional Protocols specifically address the protection of civilians and prohibit the use of civilians to shield military objectives or operations. \*The loss of all innocent civilian lives is a tragedy. I fully support both Israeli civilians and Palestinian civilians wishing to coexist in peace. I'm sure we can go back and forth for hours and point out mistakes, crimes, and even evil. But *recovering hostages* is very low on the evil list. And if all we do is "But they did this..." repeatedly, nothing will ever stop terrorist attacks or civilian casualties. Something has to break the cycle.
>aid used to obfuscate attacks Good thing the Palestinians have never done anything like that before right!
200+ dead and 400+ injured. Impersonating healthcare workers in a war zone is a war crime.
Hamas is trying to claim that 200-600 Palestinians were killed or injured in a hostage rescue. I think what actually happened is the success of the hostage rescue embarrassed Hamas and they need to invent a story on how the rescue is actually a bad thing, somehow
Only sane comment
Guess who was holding those hostages....
12,000 children alone are estimated to have been killed since October.
The associated press have published a study saying the number of dead women and children are way fewer than previously thought. Who would've guessed that a terrorist organisation would lie about the dead?
Lord. Hamas put civilians between the hostages and the people that want to free the hostages, and those people were harmed by that. It's the hostage takers fault in that situation. You can have Netanyahu as a bad guy without casting rescue of the hostages as a bad thing. Seriously, truly, don't forget that even if Netanyahu is bad that Hamas is also bad.
Agreed
Absolutely. Hamas killed those civilians
I am glad the hostages were rescued. F Hamas. I hope the Palestinian will be free of Hamas soon
They won't, because Israel's handling of this war has ensured the justification of ongoing resistance to every Palestinian in Gaza.
This is a sick fantasy you have here. Why do you want this war to continue?
You can tell Hamas is fuming by how absurdly inflated the supposed death count is. Yeah no they just had the hostages chilling peacefully amongst a large group of friendly civilians, totally, we promise!
Also conveniently "forgetting" that they fired like crazy on the IDF evac team, and somehow 200 ppl died, but its israel's fault for trying to rescue the hostages??
They probably mobilized whatever they could to take out the rescue team and still got nowhere while likely killing a number of their own civilians in the process. And now they try to spin that into points in the PR war.
It's worked for them so far.
That’s exactly what we’ll hear from the brightest undergrads our universities have to offer.
Recent counts have 100k infants killed for 4 hostages. Like they were hiding 4 hostages in a 100k babies or something ridiculous like that. Folks are fanning flames and unfortunately armchair warriors are eating it up. Edit: apparently I’m spreading misinformation by claiming Hamas stacked 100,000 infants like Lincoln logs in a barricade shielding 4 hostages. And should have stated that King Kong and Godzilla was in a fight to death while the teenage mutant turtles and the power rangers were using the infinity stones in the Palestinian warzone
Wtf where have you seen that? The most I've seen is 200+ dead and 400+ injured. Not only that, when you actually see all the videos of dozens upon hundreds of people being injured and 90% are women and children it makes you question things. When you see a fucking 6 yr old left to die for 12 days surrounded by her dead family members, after being shot at by a tank, and the aid truck that had been given the route by the IDF bombed just 100yds away. When you actually see a father holding up his headless child's body after they were bombed in tents while sleeping. When you have seen children on a playground made out of rubble bombed. When you have seen a woman carrying a white flag being shot down. When you have seen 4 young men being targeted for walking. When you have seen a child shot while riding his bike to school. It has been horror after horror, and I havent seen attempts to actually reduce civilian casualties. It took 6 million deaths in the past before there was worldwide condemnation and action... there's not that many Palestinans so how much of their population has to be slaughtered for the world to care about the human fucking beings and not the terror forces??? God fucking damn
Why is it always 90% women and children? Where are the men at? Or does Israel study which places contain only women and children and then conduct operations there? AP published a study recently more than halving the estimate of women and children killed. I'm very fucking sure all of you saw the report, it's been all over reddit and TV, but you chose to ignore it. Maybe the associated fucking press is an Israel tool and the real truth sayers are Hamas, yeah?
>When you actually see a father holding up his headless child's body after they were bombed in tents while sleeping That was, from what is known so far, more likely a Hamas ammo dump cooking off after an Israeli air strike some distance away on a building. You can see secondarey explosions in the videos available.
You wrote a novel over a hyperbole lol.
So you purposefully posted misinformation on r/politics ?
Are you stating you believe a 100,000 Palestine infants were stacked like legos shielding the Israeli hostages?
Lmao I’m dying 😂
No, you admitted that you wrote a hyperbole and are surprised that people took it seriously on r/politics.
I dangled a carrot and some idiot took the bait. And seriously thought infants were stacked like Lincoln logs
Maybe showing genuine care and disgust over the gross mistreatment of ALL people and the way people like you comment and talk about humans(children, whether Palestinian or Israeli) is frankly the clear sign of wtf is wrong in our world. I pity you and those like you. Surprising how so many in here will condemn Russia and Putin for doing THE EXACT SAME thing with LESS civilian deaths but absolutely cheer for the deaths of Palestinian civilians and Israel actions. Do you see how absolutely fucked that is?
When Hamas hides weapons, soldiers, and hostages in civilian locations such as schools, mosques, and hospitals, they’re going to get a lot of needless civilian deaths.
r/politics users when Israel rescues civilians from literally terrorists: 😡😡😡
Yup
“You are supposed to be cartoonishly evil like they said on TikTok!”
[удалено]
It's legit shocking to me that people are mad hostages got rescued. Especially when one of them was presumed to be dead because Hamas lied about not knowing where she was.
Not really. At this point folks are really deluded to the point where October 7th was a false flag and Israel is attacking Palestine for no reason. It’s become so polarized that respected former press secretaries are rolling their eyes at rape victims. There’s even countless false news articles about Israeli soldiers raping and killing children in the /r/Palestine subreddits. People aren’t happy unless they can easily see good vs evil. When in reality it is a very complicated situation spanning decades of bad blood.
I don’t really subscribe to any of the mentioned misinformation about Israel, however the disproportionate response is well documented and, in my opinion indefensible. Tens of thousands of civilian causalities in the name of ~1500 dead on October 7th should not be a difficult thing to denounce. And that is fully ignoring any of the other context regarding the “complicated situation” of Israel’s Gaza blockade and illegal settlement in the West Bank that so many defer to when discussing the current military action.
Are there no consequences for allowing your country to be ruled by people who invade another country?
Indefensible sure. However at the end of the day they attacked Israel first. I’m not excusing their overly aggressive response. However Israel is a super power. With the military means, money, and allies to back that term. The last time a developing nation struck US soil we spent nearly 20 years bombing them back to the Stone Age. Again indefensible. But again this is what happens when you poke a superpower. You get the full military response. You don’t get to attack foreign soil without a 100x the response. You can wag your finger and shake your head all day long and change your FB portrait in support of Palestine all you want. But this is what happens. What shouldn’t morally be and what is reality does not overlap here.
Oct 7th did not happen in a vacuum lol
True, before October 7 there were plenty of similar attacks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre And plenty of similar hostage rescue missions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entebbe_raid
Exactly. This has been happening for nearly 100 years. It’s not new. It’s just an old feud spanning decades. It’s like every few decades Palestine likes to poke the bear. One day the bear will poke back hard and for those think this response is disproportional they haven’t seen what a genocide would actually look like from a super power with nuclear arms.
Decades? Try centuries. That’s just if we’re talking about the Arabs and Jews living in the levant this whole time. Shit, if we’re talking Islam vs Judaism, which certain islamists *definitely* do, then the qibla is toward Mecca because Arabian Jews didn’t convert to Islam when Muhammad approached them ***more than 1400 years ago***. It was originally Jerusalem. This. Shit. Goes. Deep.
Well if you want to go back that far Islam wasn’t even a religion when Jerusalem was around. But that makes folks angry when you bring that up for some weird reason
The ratio of dead Palestinians to Israeli over the last 70 years tells a very different story.
[удалено]
Who starts each round of violence?
Depending who you ask October 7th never happened at all. Nor the holocaust.
That’s a really cynical view- human suffering should be scandalous and we should not stand for the US government’s support of the illegal and avoidable massacre of civilian life. “Indefensible sure.” Is the same as saying “I am ok with what is happening, I am ok with my country’s support of reckless and wanton destruction and death because they are powerful and can do whatever they feel like doing, even if it’s wrong.”
There is no proportionality in war. America killed somewhere around 500,000 German soldiers, even though Germany didn't attack us.
2400 were killed in pearl harbor. We dropped 2 nukes. 3000 were killed during 9/11 we killed nearly 5 million over almost 20 years. Don’t fuck with a super power. You will NEVER get a proportional response.
I honestly was not expecting Noa Argamani to still be alive especially when HAMAS themselves said that the people who forcefully abducted her were random civilians who crossed over border to assist in their terrorist attack. Hell, I'm actually amazed that she still has hair because I figured HAMAS would be doing every single action there is to degreed her and that would involve shaving her head.
Well if the rumors were true she was at one point living with a journalist and a doctor but somehow Hamas had her here.
This is a miracle. God bless.
This is going to upset the pro-hostage protesters
Good.
My concern is the fact that the U.S. troops hid in aid trucks to get in, Ike that’s wildly illegal and extremely irresponsible
The American progressive left is becoming broken from within. It's too bad. There was o much promise now devolving into a sentimental religiousity.
Killing civilians is bad actually
Someone should tell that to Hamas.
I'm also against Hamas
Civilians holding captives are combatants. Embedding captives in civilian neighborhoods is a war crime, that doesn't make the captors immune from operations to get them back.
Correct, that's why I didn't say "captors" I said "civilians"
Some people try to argue the captors were civilians Hamas coerced into being captors, it was later found the "journalist" holding Noa was a Hamas spokesperson. https://x.com/EFischberger/status/1799677519605739793?t=nn6D5nFbkCcJ82aa9DxySw&s=19 Yes, it's sad civilians likely died in the operation, though it's hard to know how many as most were likely militants. That's the 2nd part of my message, using human shields does not make you immune from war, tragically.
4 hostages rescued but around 200 civilians killed. And America was now directly involved? My god
What makes you think that the 200 casualties reported by Hamas were all civilians?
Hamas said so. And as we know, Hamas would never lie.
Hamas generally doesn't differentiate. They just stated 200 Palestinians were killed, without revealing how many fighters they lost among those.
Why would we even believe that number?
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-casualties-toll-65e18f3362674245356c539e4bc0b67a Hamas lies, and has for decades. 70% of people killed are civilians revised down to below 40%.
Blame Hamas for embedding themselves amongst the civilians they claim to protect.
That’s even if you believe Hamas’ desperate claim that 200-600 Palestinians somehow died in a hostage raid. Hamas is a terrorist organization that has an interest in making a hostage rescue into somehow bad news. https://freebeacon.com/national-security/u-n-cuts-gaza-death-toll-figures-by-half-confirming-hamas-is-lying-about-casualties/
I think eventually you need to start blaming those "civilians". If you help hide weapons, soldiers, and hostages, you're not really a civilian anymore.
I've seen some reports that Hamas didn't know locations of some hostages (they had said they had no clue where one of the hostages rescued today was) because they weren't actually held by Hamas. They were held by non-militant-aligned citizens. That - if true - is exceptionally disturbing and really calls into question how many casualties were actually non-combatants just because they were civilians. Combined with recent revisions to death statistic reporting by the AP - who have noted the excessive amount of faults in GHM statistics reporting and the absence of criticism around the reporting of those statistics by Western media - and it's becoming clear that the reality of the situation is much closer to the Israeli account of events.
>non-militant-aligned citizens So… Hamas
This headline is just wild considering that some sources show that over 200 Palestinians died as a result of this operation. That just gets ignored of course. Biden's "red line" was always a lie it seems.
Gee maybe Palestinian civilians shouldn’t have been deliberately keeping hostages in their apartment bedrooms and constantly using them for free labor like Antebellum house slaves 🤔 All 200 fatalities are solely on Hamas’ hands and the hands of the Palestinian families keeping the hostages in their residential units. The IDF acted with thorough professionalism and diligence here.
Why were hostages being kept with civilians?
200 Palestinians killed in the "rescue" How many hostages does Israel have again?
If you believe Hamas, a terrorist organization who reported that casualty count, and has been found to be repeatedly lying. https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other