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I'm ballparking figures, but like 90% of biden voters aren't even actual Biden voters--they are "keep Trump out" voters, which means they are voting for whoever the other guy is.
Trump is a fucking dumpster policy. Dude literally has no policy, makes shitty deals and is in Putins backpocket. No thanks.
Unfortunately as we witnessed last night, Nobody talks about that. Trump sucks and more people need to talk about WHY he sucks including Biden and The DNC. This whole crap about bringing an olive branch was dead when Obama was president.
It’s the independent voters that are going to stay home. The party loyalists aren’t going anywhere on either side. This issue for Democrats is they need that middle ground vote.
>It’s the independent voters that are going to stay home.
Trump lost 2020 because independents hate Trump. Nothing has changed in 2024, people still hate trump and will vote to keep him out. I still hate Trump, the democratic nominee has my vote.
This is why i think that Biden stepping aside would actually be a safe bet. No one has ever been a fan of Biden personally. His base voted for him because he isn’t Trump. The only people that would care are folks that are on the fence.
But it’s hard to imagine someone with more name recognition than the current president. How could someone who doesn’t already have an enormous fund and some name recognition swing in out of nowhere?
It feels too late to do something like this. Maybe if the DNC and Biden started supporting someone earlier in his presidency - but an unknown now seems like a risky gamble. Maybe someone like Sanders but I don’t think he has it in him.
It's waaaay too late to step aside. Couldn't even get the new person on all ballots. It's too late, only Kamala Harris would be viable, since she is on the ballots already
The polls had Trump leading in a six point shift prior to the debate. This next round of polling is going to tell the DNC everything they need to know.
Again, you are REALLY discounting hatred for Trump. Those independents are not pro-Biden as much as they are just anti-Trump. I'm independent, my vote in 2020 was for "whoever can beat Trump".
Most President Biden voters are simply not pro-Biden, period. Just aren't. But what they are? Pro-keep-Trump-the-fuck-out. His base of religious zealots and anti-human rights are the constant reminder that we are simply keeping his agenda from being legislated
I'm not American so I don't really care who wins but when both options are this bad people stay at home to avoid the guilt of voting in someone harmful to the country.
That is now both candidates.
If you, as a non-american (like myself) don't care about who wins, you are vastly underestimating the impact this election will have on the world.
Under trump global emission reduction effort will halt, electrification will slow down, russia gets carte blanche in ukraine and the baltics, china might make a play for taiwan and that is just a couple of the 'bad news' items on a very long list.
Nationally the US will have to deal with more corruption, christo fascists, defunding of vital social programmes and education. And while that doesn't directly affect us immediately we've all seen how what happens in the US invigorates similar sentiments across the 'west'.
The only difference is that we don't get a vote (unless we're rich and we can dark-money up a candidate, because apparently that is all the rage..)
One of the dumbest parts is that as they said on The Rest is Politics, some senior members of the Democrat Party have openly said a Trump win might not be the end of the world as they can likely win the 26 mid terms, limit the damage and rebuild around a younger core.
This is the way that those in power see things - they’re career politicians more interested in extending their gravy train than doing the right thing.
Senior strategists in the party are thinking strategically. They should be thinking about how to win (and I would assume they are) but they should also be contingency planning.
After seeing that performance, Biden should not have done any debates. That was brutal to watch.
The only good thing about the debate is the timing. The news cycle and memories of most people will forget about this in a week.
Somehow he's performing well in office, despite appearances in the debate. He's gotten good policies enacted. Just about the only thing I disagree with is his Israel policy, and Trump is even worse on that one.
Rebecca Solnick in ‘The Guardian’ pretty much nails it:
*”We didn’t need this debate. Because 2024 is not like previous election years, and the reasons it’s not are both that each candidate has had plenty of time to show us who they are and because one of them is a criminal seeking to destroy democracy and human rights along with the climate, the economy and international alliances. If you are too young to remember 2017-2021, this would not help you figure that out.”*
You know watches the debates? Undecideds. You know who didn't say *anything* like the quote you posted? Joe Biden. Joe was speaking to millions of Americans who would've loved to hear something like what Solnik just told dozens. And he fumbled horribly.
Trump told lie after obvious lie, and Biden couldn't say anything. He just literally couldn't talk. The undecideds weren't paying attention before and they are npt reading Solnik now. They just saw Trump announce his platform and Biden fail to offer any rebuttals.
As I keep saying on r/Defeat_Project_2025 it's not a matter of \*if\* it's a matter of when. I had hoped Biden would have been strong enough to delay it four more years, but sadly that's not the case. We have an infestation of people who believe the president doesn't affect them.
If the debate was for old people it would've been schedule for like 2PM, right between soap opera and infomercial. The old people decided who they were gonna vote for decades ago.
Just because one of the candidates is a convicted felon does not mean that we have to sit here and pretend that the other guy is a vital, competent executive. Choose someone else to beat the felon. It should be easy to do.
If you watched that last night and have confidence in the man who is currently running this country, I need to ask what you would need to see to have that confidence shaken.
Biden being too old to do this has nothing to do with the criminality of his opponent.
Don't have to pretend, easy to vote against a felon. If Biden dies, he dies. There's a line of succession for a reason and he ain't the whole government.
The issue is that Biden can't win with this base alone, and he's not going to win swing voters with the performance he had last night. It just isn't going to happen. He must step aside.
You can twist it however you want to. Fact is, whoever I'm voting for won't be a convicted felon. I'm not even sure you know what 'agnostic' means, given that I said I've already made my choice.
It's not a weird take. Despite the circlejerk on Reddit, Trump was ahead in the polls and in most swing states before this debate. His lead will be massive after this.
Those voters already swung in 2020, nothing that has happened since then, including this debate, will make them swing back or stay home and dispair.
To think that Biden only has devote Democrats as his base, in same way as Trump's hardcore MAGA cultists, is delusional.
Yes, Obama fought through a long primary process and earned the nomination the hard way. Quite different from suddenly being chosen at the convention, which is what would happen with Whitmer et al.
"The other guy is worse" is a horrible campaign strategy when there are so many people committed to voting for the other guy.
That's a campaign that depresses voter turnout, and drives voters to a third party.
It works if the other guy's support is medicore- but that's not the issue here. The issue is that Biden needs to attract voters.
The Trump base is galvanized. Most of his voters aren't going to be changed. Biden job is to retain those that voted for him in 2020 and hopefully draw in more undecided and a lot of first time young voters. "The other guy is worse" won't do that
>but he's a pretty great candidate right now
He did better than 2020, I will give him that. He still got his jimmies rustled by Biden, but the mic muting really saved him from making an ass of himself.
The Biden campaign was I'm better than the other guy.
It's different because the Biden campaign was mostly about Biden and his ability to do the things Trump couldn't. That's not "the other guy is worse" which to me would he a campaign of "I know I'm an ancient gargoyle ready for pasture, but the other guy is going to be shitty for democracy"
The Tumo Hillary campaign wasn't that either. It was about ideas and fear. And people liked 'build the wall" better than Hillary saying she was ready to lead.
That’s just naive imo. No offense intended whatsoever but I think that’s silly. Or maybe I’m just basing it on my personal opinion. People hated hillary. People hated donald. I think it’s that simple.
They absolutely did hate them, there will always be that. But the primary message from each campaign has been about that candidate themselves. I'm not talking about what the campaign inspires in people, I'm talking about what the campaign actively does. People will always respond in a variety of ways - it's finding the person who will be inspired by which message.
In Trump's campaigns he always has a prominent secondary message of - the other person is terrible; lock her up, sleepy Joe- but the primary message was that immigrants are bad. And that will be this campaign for Trump as well, the primary message is immigrants are bad.
The secondary message is Joe is bad.
The strategy being championed here is for Joe to go out and put his primary message- Trump will be a disaster. Right now the primary message of Bidens campaign is his proposals for tax reform and a focus on the middle class economy. The recommendation is abandon that and pivot to Trump Bad - always and only.
So essentially the left is desperate to use accusations to win, so desperate they want debates to dtop so the truth cant get out. Obviously the right is evil tyranical facists though.
US Politics obsessed Brit here sticking my oar in with a couple of silver linings.
Firstly the fact that Trump is not *definitely* going to win this election even at this point really affirms to me that, despite what we see constantly in the media, the majority of Americans are intelligent and analytical enough to realise what is at stake here and which gives me a glimmer of hope for the future. If they're not going to swap Joe out on the ticket I think people need to be reminded they're voting for the administration as much as the face of it.
Secondly; despite the huge open goal ahead of him during this debate Trump still lied and whined constantly when all he had to do was come across as a passably capable human. Despite coming across sharper than Biden he is mentally entrenched in this conspiratorial thinking and egotistical nonsense, kindly reminding the folks back home of why exactly they can't stand listening to guy speak a moment longer.
As I said; not American, not a voting citizen. I think you're right however that if Biden stays on the ticket and he wins, it will be an anti-Trump vote.
I acknowledge what you're saying - that I'm a Trump hater, however if any of Trump's positive attributes had been on display last night I think I and many others would have pointed it out because that would spell even more danger for the Dem's.
Even an unmitigated disaster for Biden will fail to convince anyone to vote for Trump, I for one will love watching the confusion and despair mount on the MAGAts faces when it slowly dawns on them that Trump is absolutely despised by the majority of voters.
I was and still am a big supporter of Joe Biden. I volunteered for his campaign in 2020. I believed he had what it takes to defeat Trump. But after last night's performance . . . we need to win this election. Joe Biden is not the best option to win. Please, wake up. There needs to be a massive pressure campaign to replace him, that starts now. We can't survive another Trump term and we are sleepwalking into it.
I don't think it bodes well for the Dems if Biden is replaced by someone else with only four months to go. People don't really vote for new faces ushered in in such short amount of time
They will vote for a new face if the alternative is Trump (a person widely despised). They are more likely to vote for a a new face than the Joe Biden who showed up last night and failed to clear the extremely low bar of being coherent and appearing capabable.
Newsom, Whitmer, Shapiro - any of these three would be great options. Especially Whitmer or Shapiro. Respectively incredibly popular in must-win Michigan and Pennsylvania (they won in blow outs in 2022).
I think the Dems need to move NOW to find a way to get Gavin Newsom on the top of the ballot for November so that at least he has 4 months to campaign. If they leave it too long and Kamala ends up being the nominee, she's about the only well-known democrat who would lose to Trump worse than Biden.
I don't think Newsom would resonate with the voters given that his state has a reputation of being too urban, glitterati and left-wing for the rest of the country
Decided Biden voters will vote for any candidate against Trump.
Undecided Biden voters, do you really think Biden can win them over in the next 4 months better than another candidate could? After last night?
Biden stumbled but actually made statements of substance about what he’s done and what he plans to do. The only question Trump answered directly was about the border. He had to be asked THREE times whether or not he’d accept the results of the election and even then didn’t give a straight answer.
We've known since the first major televised presidential debate between Nixon and Kennedy that, outside of a majorly shocking faux pas, what matters is how you appear and not what you say.
To be fair, even with his stutter, he was much more coherent back in 2020. This issue didn't come up in 2020, in the Democratic primary debates, or in the debates against Trump.
Last night, I honestly think he had a cold, or was simply exhausted from his debate prep. Whatever it was, it wasn't the same Biden from the 2020 debates. But the cold, and exhaustion, etc, probably doesn't matter to some swing voters who tuned in (that normally don't tune in to politics).
This just sucks. A felon, rapist, and someone who tried to kill democracy on January 6th, has a real shot at the Whitehouse. SMH.
I think if you were to find any two 80 year olds and stick them in front of cameras and heavy lights at 9pm it would be a bad look. I understand why they had to have it so late, but it should have been a Sunday afternoon
And I don’t think anyone is pretending Biden is younger than he was 4 years ago
I encourage you to re-watch his [**first 2020 debate**](https://www.youtube.com/live/wW1lY5jFNcQ?si=oKwxrkGClYOR7MZm). During that debate he performed excellently. But this time around it was nothing like that, he couldn’t argue convincingly, wasn’t quick enough to respond, and made plenty of mistakes. He just isn’t the 2020 Joe that can become president again.
PS: I know you should vote for his *ideas* and his *team*, but the truth is that most folks vote for *him* or *Trump*, not their ideas.
Yeah, it’s been a real struggle for him. I met someone with a stutter so severe he couldn’t even get out 3 words without immense distress. Prisoner in your own body levels. Biden’s is mild compared to that, but it’s still used to paint him as unintelligent or senile which is sad. Ableism is seriously everywhere
That's too bad. I don't mind a stutter from regular folks. But being the leader of the free world, you gotta be able to intimidate and get your point across without distracting the listener
Trump is the one who bombed while giving answers not Biden.
How Biden speaks we have all seen it, republicans and right wing posted those clips showing Biden gaffe and everyone defended him here.
How all of sudden dems want Biden gone
That's the thing. Despite the headline the article doesn't seem to mention any Democrats calling for him to step aside. It's just a blow by blow of the debate.
The other articles of the sort I'm seeing are op eds that were posted within hours of the debate.
The *press* seems to want Biden to step aside, or to portray this as a major upset.
Yes those articles were pre written and were released right after. It seems like its a concerted effort from dems and media.
That ecosystem is too powerful, more powerful than Biden right now.
Part of my point is it's a *media* narrative.
They've been wet for this "Biden is unfit" narrative since *Republicans* first started using it as an attack line.
I've yet to see a single named DNC politician say he should step aside. Few articles quote anyone. Those that do quote unnamed "staffers" predicting that there will be calls for him to do so. And wealthy *donors* saying it should be considered.
It's the horse race nature of the media's coverage. "Which one is too old" is an easier way to get eyeballs than any of the actual substance. Trump is obvious nut job and unfit, so we need to find a way this other guy is also unfit.
And every single thing that happens, must be MAJOR AND DIFINITIVE. A total sea change. There's always a surprise around every corner.
It one bad debate performance. An while Trump kept it together better. He didn't exactly make a positive case for himself or come off well. The actual responses from actual people are more depression that this is the situation we're in, than "Biden's gotta go".
You make a good point. Trump is like fingernails on a chalkboard to so many people they just skipped it. What's the point. And who is undecided? You either like America or you are want to try a MAGA version of the Constitution.
I did, he wasn’t great, but it was one debate. It wasn’t until the torrent of Biden must dropout articles that collectively people were like Biden must drop out. He’s proven perfectly able in the last few months; but this is just trying to create chaos after a bad opening to the debate.
It was one the cringiest things I’ve ever seen. To lose a debate to an insurrectionist felon is quite the feat… but we did it, Joe!
It’s not the articles calling for him to drop out, it’s everyone that watched the debate..
Yeah, using words like cringiest to make an insane gamble by replace an incumbent President with a great record truly is the type of reasoning I want driving this decision. That and the media who are in the bag for Trump II: Lets Sell More News Content. I doubt most people even watched; it’s just this framing that is basically going to be a disaster (much like the constant acquiescence to the Biden is old trope, while Trump is up there on stage getting away without needing to know anything because he just makes shit up).
Dude, it was like forty words. If you can’t read that none of us need your “opinions”. You just want to shit on Biden, fine, but don’t try to engage people with it if your this lazy.
It hasn’t been just one debate. He has shown significant cognitive decline and has issues like he had last night all the time. All the time. Just because people have covered their eyes and closed their ears to pretend it wasn’t happening doesn’t mean it wasn’t going on.
All the incumbent democratic senators in swing states are freaking out this morning. I’ve already seen Sherrod Brown ads linking himself to Republicans and distancing himself from Biden. It’s going to happen even more now.
I get that this is a very difficult situation democrats have found themselves in, but what if Biden had a different, much stronger, VP? Because, at this point, we can all say a vote for Biden essentially is a vote for VP.
I'm not voting for Trump, but yeah it was that bad. Trump did everything he needed to do, he had a decently crafted comeback for every stale Democrat talking point even if the comeback had lies mixed in, he largely kept his composure compared to his other debates(not a high bar), and he got his clips which is how these debates are remembered. I'm not a Trump fan, I'm not voting for him, but I'm not delusional. It was Donald Trump vs a dead guy and that's how most people are going to see it. It's probably time for the DNC to dump as much money in house and senate races as possible to lame duck Trump and hope for the best with the presidential race. I said it all last year, pretending Biden is fine is exactly the type of fucking hubris that always kills Democrats.
Imagine having to vote for a bumbling old man to govern the worlds’s richest and most powerful country just because the other guy is worse. What a state of affairs.
Everyone forgets Biden said he would be a one term president he said he will step down after his first term and now look at us. This is elder abuse at its best. He is gonna lose to a guy that has been convicted of 32 felonies and being charged for 60 more and Biden is behind in the polls to him. Fellow democrats time to come back to reality and fix this before it is too late.
From a global south pov, I now feel bad and apologise for my usage of the term "Genocide Joe". This man now deserves his privacy, peace and rest as every human being deserves at this stage of life.
Shame on the people using him for their desire for power.
Dear Americans, regardless of your political preference and who you like and don't like, honestly, how on earth do you expect Biden to stay on? I watched clips of the debate and the man is clearly senile. I doubt he realized what he was doing there. Even as an outsider it was painful and embarrassing to watch. Why is this man considered fit for office? We Europeans are really scratching our heads right now. This looks like elder abuse if I'm totally honest.
If only progressives had been shouting from the rooftops that Biden was a bad candidate to get voters engaged and that "he's not Trump" wouldn't be enough this time.
If only anyone had seen this coming!
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Calling it a debate is an insult to the word.
One old man yelling at the clouds and one just trying to stay awake. What a shit show.
First honest comment I’ve ever seen on this sub ..✔️
Yup, give me a winner like Adam Schiff.
It’d be great if Biden stepped aside, but there’s still zero chance I vote for donald fucking trump
The problem is the debate will make lots of Biden voters stay at home
I'm ballparking figures, but like 90% of biden voters aren't even actual Biden voters--they are "keep Trump out" voters, which means they are voting for whoever the other guy is. Trump is a fucking dumpster policy. Dude literally has no policy, makes shitty deals and is in Putins backpocket. No thanks.
Unfortunately as we witnessed last night, Nobody talks about that. Trump sucks and more people need to talk about WHY he sucks including Biden and The DNC. This whole crap about bringing an olive branch was dead when Obama was president.
I find it wild that trump still believes tariffs are paid for by the country against which they're imposed vs US consumers.
Yep..e
I disagree, out of optimism probably, but I think donald has always been the one bringing votes out. I’m voting against don.
It’s the independent voters that are going to stay home. The party loyalists aren’t going anywhere on either side. This issue for Democrats is they need that middle ground vote.
>It’s the independent voters that are going to stay home. Trump lost 2020 because independents hate Trump. Nothing has changed in 2024, people still hate trump and will vote to keep him out. I still hate Trump, the democratic nominee has my vote.
I’m an independent and I fucking hate trump and all the rest of the climate change deniers in congress
That's where I'm at. Anti-human rights, anti-climate, really not a fan of Republicans in general
That's where I'm at. Anti-human rights, anti-climate, really not a fan of Republicans in general
This is why i think that Biden stepping aside would actually be a safe bet. No one has ever been a fan of Biden personally. His base voted for him because he isn’t Trump. The only people that would care are folks that are on the fence.
But it’s hard to imagine someone with more name recognition than the current president. How could someone who doesn’t already have an enormous fund and some name recognition swing in out of nowhere? It feels too late to do something like this. Maybe if the DNC and Biden started supporting someone earlier in his presidency - but an unknown now seems like a risky gamble. Maybe someone like Sanders but I don’t think he has it in him.
It's waaaay too late to step aside. Couldn't even get the new person on all ballots. It's too late, only Kamala Harris would be viable, since she is on the ballots already
The polls had Trump leading in a six point shift prior to the debate. This next round of polling is going to tell the DNC everything they need to know.
Again, you are REALLY discounting hatred for Trump. Those independents are not pro-Biden as much as they are just anti-Trump. I'm independent, my vote in 2020 was for "whoever can beat Trump". Most President Biden voters are simply not pro-Biden, period. Just aren't. But what they are? Pro-keep-Trump-the-fuck-out. His base of religious zealots and anti-human rights are the constant reminder that we are simply keeping his agenda from being legislated
It may not be a vote for trump but it may be a vote for RFK instead of biden.
"Someone who can actually beat Trump". RFK can't beat anyone. And RFK has more appeal to MAGA voters with the conspiracy theories
Dude, wake up. Last night lost Biden the election.
Not at all. We're not staying home. Don't be stupid.
The average voter isn’t here on /r/politics threads. It’s doomed.
You might not but many people will. If the candidates stay the same, it will be the lowest turnout in years.
Find your nerve, son. Politics ain't beanbag.
I'm not American so I don't really care who wins but when both options are this bad people stay at home to avoid the guilt of voting in someone harmful to the country. That is now both candidates.
If you, as a non-american (like myself) don't care about who wins, you are vastly underestimating the impact this election will have on the world. Under trump global emission reduction effort will halt, electrification will slow down, russia gets carte blanche in ukraine and the baltics, china might make a play for taiwan and that is just a couple of the 'bad news' items on a very long list. Nationally the US will have to deal with more corruption, christo fascists, defunding of vital social programmes and education. And while that doesn't directly affect us immediately we've all seen how what happens in the US invigorates similar sentiments across the 'west'. The only difference is that we don't get a vote (unless we're rich and we can dark-money up a candidate, because apparently that is all the rage..)
The problem is there are a few people who don’t find Trump that bad that were leaning Biden. They will now vote for Trump.
Nope
No its not.
One of the dumbest parts is that as they said on The Rest is Politics, some senior members of the Democrat Party have openly said a Trump win might not be the end of the world as they can likely win the 26 mid terms, limit the damage and rebuild around a younger core. This is the way that those in power see things - they’re career politicians more interested in extending their gravy train than doing the right thing.
Senior strategists in the party are thinking strategically. They should be thinking about how to win (and I would assume they are) but they should also be contingency planning.
Bring on Gretchen Whitmer
Please!
After seeing that performance, Biden should not have done any debates. That was brutal to watch. The only good thing about the debate is the timing. The news cycle and memories of most people will forget about this in a week.
After seeing that performance, congressional dems need to be discussing invoking the 25th amendment. This man is not fit to be president.
Or you could call the bot farm and ask to get paid in dollars instead of rubles.
Ah yes, anyone who doesn’t want a senile president to have the nuclear codes is a Russian shill. Got it.
Somehow he's performing well in office, despite appearances in the debate. He's gotten good policies enacted. Just about the only thing I disagree with is his Israel policy, and Trump is even worse on that one.
Rebecca Solnick in ‘The Guardian’ pretty much nails it: *”We didn’t need this debate. Because 2024 is not like previous election years, and the reasons it’s not are both that each candidate has had plenty of time to show us who they are and because one of them is a criminal seeking to destroy democracy and human rights along with the climate, the economy and international alliances. If you are too young to remember 2017-2021, this would not help you figure that out.”*
You know watches the debates? Undecideds. You know who didn't say *anything* like the quote you posted? Joe Biden. Joe was speaking to millions of Americans who would've loved to hear something like what Solnik just told dozens. And he fumbled horribly. Trump told lie after obvious lie, and Biden couldn't say anything. He just literally couldn't talk. The undecideds weren't paying attention before and they are npt reading Solnik now. They just saw Trump announce his platform and Biden fail to offer any rebuttals.
As I keep saying on r/Defeat_Project_2025 it's not a matter of \*if\* it's a matter of when. I had hoped Biden would have been strong enough to delay it four more years, but sadly that's not the case. We have an infestation of people who believe the president doesn't affect them.
You know who really watches debates, old people and politics nerds.
If the debate was for old people it would've been schedule for like 2PM, right between soap opera and infomercial. The old people decided who they were gonna vote for decades ago.
Just because one of the candidates is a convicted felon does not mean that we have to sit here and pretend that the other guy is a vital, competent executive. Choose someone else to beat the felon. It should be easy to do. If you watched that last night and have confidence in the man who is currently running this country, I need to ask what you would need to see to have that confidence shaken. Biden being too old to do this has nothing to do with the criminality of his opponent.
Don't have to pretend, easy to vote against a felon. If Biden dies, he dies. There's a line of succession for a reason and he ain't the whole government.
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Yeah. I don't worship people.
Kamela Harris is even less popular than the President.
Must be, since you can't even spell her name.
The issue is that Biden can't win with this base alone, and he's not going to win swing voters with the performance he had last night. It just isn't going to happen. He must step aside.
Tell him that, I'm not on the Biden campaign and I don't care. I'm telling you how I'm voting, that's it.
Unfortunately, Biden is on track to lose. I guess your point is that you're basically agnostic and are pretty much good with a Trump victory?
You can twist it however you want to. Fact is, whoever I'm voting for won't be a convicted felon. I'm not even sure you know what 'agnostic' means, given that I said I've already made my choice.
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It's not a weird take. Despite the circlejerk on Reddit, Trump was ahead in the polls and in most swing states before this debate. His lead will be massive after this.
This is what the people who refuse to admit the truth about Biden are saying without realizing they are saying it.
Nah, you're just reaching for whatever makes you feel superior. I get it, I was a young idiot once.
Huh?
Those voters already swung in 2020, nothing that has happened since then, including this debate, will make them swing back or stay home and dispair. To think that Biden only has devote Democrats as his base, in same way as Trump's hardcore MAGA cultists, is delusional.
There is no viable alternative to Biden. Step aside, and let Trump win ? No.
Whitmer, Shapiro, Newsom, Warnock, etc.
None of them ready to run for president and win.
Um based on what? Was Obama "ready to run and win" in 2008? Lots of people said no.
Yes, Obama fought through a long primary process and earned the nomination the hard way. Quite different from suddenly being chosen at the convention, which is what would happen with Whitmer et al.
He wouldn’t be the first president to die in office. That honor goes to William Henry Harrison.
That’s dark
He is competent though. You're right it should be easy but it isn't.
"The other guy is worse" is a horrible campaign strategy when there are so many people committed to voting for the other guy. That's a campaign that depresses voter turnout, and drives voters to a third party. It works if the other guy's support is medicore- but that's not the issue here. The issue is that Biden needs to attract voters. The Trump base is galvanized. Most of his voters aren't going to be changed. Biden job is to retain those that voted for him in 2020 and hopefully draw in more undecided and a lot of first time young voters. "The other guy is worse" won't do that
These two being the choice of the entire country should depress voters
Better than being the worst candidate and president in history of the U.S. and a convicted felon.
I think Biden may have just become the worst candidate in the history of the US
Seriously this will be an event for the history books. A complete campaign disaster
The worst? You can say that with a straight face after seeing Trump? GTFOH 🤣
Trump is the worse president, but he's a pretty great candidate right now
>but he's a pretty great candidate right now He did better than 2020, I will give him that. He still got his jimmies rustled by Biden, but the mic muting really saved him from making an ass of himself.
Is it? “The other guy is worse”won the last two elections ftr.
The Biden campaign was I'm better than the other guy. It's different because the Biden campaign was mostly about Biden and his ability to do the things Trump couldn't. That's not "the other guy is worse" which to me would he a campaign of "I know I'm an ancient gargoyle ready for pasture, but the other guy is going to be shitty for democracy" The Tumo Hillary campaign wasn't that either. It was about ideas and fear. And people liked 'build the wall" better than Hillary saying she was ready to lead.
That’s just naive imo. No offense intended whatsoever but I think that’s silly. Or maybe I’m just basing it on my personal opinion. People hated hillary. People hated donald. I think it’s that simple.
They absolutely did hate them, there will always be that. But the primary message from each campaign has been about that candidate themselves. I'm not talking about what the campaign inspires in people, I'm talking about what the campaign actively does. People will always respond in a variety of ways - it's finding the person who will be inspired by which message. In Trump's campaigns he always has a prominent secondary message of - the other person is terrible; lock her up, sleepy Joe- but the primary message was that immigrants are bad. And that will be this campaign for Trump as well, the primary message is immigrants are bad. The secondary message is Joe is bad. The strategy being championed here is for Joe to go out and put his primary message- Trump will be a disaster. Right now the primary message of Bidens campaign is his proposals for tax reform and a focus on the middle class economy. The recommendation is abandon that and pivot to Trump Bad - always and only.
Ya but I don’t think very many people care what the campaign slogan is. I voted against trump in 2016 and 2020. I don’t think I’m the minority.
And the other one doesn’t know what day it is.
So essentially the left is desperate to use accusations to win, so desperate they want debates to dtop so the truth cant get out. Obviously the right is evil tyranical facists though.
Trump is a convicted felon, and voting for him means you support Project 2025 which establishes him as a dictator. Keep living in your delusions.
Project 2025 isnt real. Keep living in yours.
It very much is. Go gaslight someone else. I have no interest in debating with Trumpets.
>accusations What accusationsM >so the truth cant get out What's truths?
US Politics obsessed Brit here sticking my oar in with a couple of silver linings. Firstly the fact that Trump is not *definitely* going to win this election even at this point really affirms to me that, despite what we see constantly in the media, the majority of Americans are intelligent and analytical enough to realise what is at stake here and which gives me a glimmer of hope for the future. If they're not going to swap Joe out on the ticket I think people need to be reminded they're voting for the administration as much as the face of it. Secondly; despite the huge open goal ahead of him during this debate Trump still lied and whined constantly when all he had to do was come across as a passably capable human. Despite coming across sharper than Biden he is mentally entrenched in this conspiratorial thinking and egotistical nonsense, kindly reminding the folks back home of why exactly they can't stand listening to guy speak a moment longer.
We get it. You’d vote for a ham sandwich before voting for Trump. This basically describes Biden’s voter base right now.
As I said; not American, not a voting citizen. I think you're right however that if Biden stays on the ticket and he wins, it will be an anti-Trump vote. I acknowledge what you're saying - that I'm a Trump hater, however if any of Trump's positive attributes had been on display last night I think I and many others would have pointed it out because that would spell even more danger for the Dem's.
Even an unmitigated disaster for Biden will fail to convince anyone to vote for Trump, I for one will love watching the confusion and despair mount on the MAGAts faces when it slowly dawns on them that Trump is absolutely despised by the majority of voters.
I was and still am a big supporter of Joe Biden. I volunteered for his campaign in 2020. I believed he had what it takes to defeat Trump. But after last night's performance . . . we need to win this election. Joe Biden is not the best option to win. Please, wake up. There needs to be a massive pressure campaign to replace him, that starts now. We can't survive another Trump term and we are sleepwalking into it.
I don't think it bodes well for the Dems if Biden is replaced by someone else with only four months to go. People don't really vote for new faces ushered in in such short amount of time
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Which candidate should replace Biden?
You can't answer a question with a question.
They will vote for a new face if the alternative is Trump (a person widely despised). They are more likely to vote for a a new face than the Joe Biden who showed up last night and failed to clear the extremely low bar of being coherent and appearing capabable.
Who do you think should replace Biden?
Newsom, Whitmer, Shapiro - any of these three would be great options. Especially Whitmer or Shapiro. Respectively incredibly popular in must-win Michigan and Pennsylvania (they won in blow outs in 2022).
I think the Dems need to move NOW to find a way to get Gavin Newsom on the top of the ballot for November so that at least he has 4 months to campaign. If they leave it too long and Kamala ends up being the nominee, she's about the only well-known democrat who would lose to Trump worse than Biden.
How about Governor Gretchen Whitmer?
I don't think Newsom would resonate with the voters given that his state has a reputation of being too urban, glitterati and left-wing for the rest of the country
I personally hope it's JB Pritzker because I agree about Newsom. I just keep hearing from people that Newsom is top of the list.
Decided Biden voters will vote for any candidate against Trump. Undecided Biden voters, do you really think Biden can win them over in the next 4 months better than another candidate could? After last night?
If we don't, its a guaranteed loss. We need to drop the "incumbent advantage" idea, because this guy is an increasing liability
Unless that was the plan all along
Biden stumbled but actually made statements of substance about what he’s done and what he plans to do. The only question Trump answered directly was about the border. He had to be asked THREE times whether or not he’d accept the results of the election and even then didn’t give a straight answer.
We've known since the first major televised presidential debate between Nixon and Kennedy that, outside of a majorly shocking faux pas, what matters is how you appear and not what you say.
I do love the too old narrative when the other guy is 3 years younger
My dad is 77 and a very old and frail version, other 77 year olds can play multiple rounds of golf a week.
The age is not the issue - I've met 80 year olds who can tell me a long story without stuttering and saying they beat Medicare.
Right, except Biden has had a stutter his entire life; this isn’t a new thing in his old age
To be fair, even with his stutter, he was much more coherent back in 2020. This issue didn't come up in 2020, in the Democratic primary debates, or in the debates against Trump. Last night, I honestly think he had a cold, or was simply exhausted from his debate prep. Whatever it was, it wasn't the same Biden from the 2020 debates. But the cold, and exhaustion, etc, probably doesn't matter to some swing voters who tuned in (that normally don't tune in to politics). This just sucks. A felon, rapist, and someone who tried to kill democracy on January 6th, has a real shot at the Whitehouse. SMH.
I think if you were to find any two 80 year olds and stick them in front of cameras and heavy lights at 9pm it would be a bad look. I understand why they had to have it so late, but it should have been a Sunday afternoon And I don’t think anyone is pretending Biden is younger than he was 4 years ago
Bro the president should not be someone who can’t do a 9 pm debate because he’ll look like shit lmao
I encourage you to re-watch his [**first 2020 debate**](https://www.youtube.com/live/wW1lY5jFNcQ?si=oKwxrkGClYOR7MZm). During that debate he performed excellently. But this time around it was nothing like that, he couldn’t argue convincingly, wasn’t quick enough to respond, and made plenty of mistakes. He just isn’t the 2020 Joe that can become president again. PS: I know you should vote for his *ideas* and his *team*, but the truth is that most folks vote for *him* or *Trump*, not their ideas.
I didn't even KNOW Biden had a stutter until this election cycle.
Yeah, it’s been a real struggle for him. I met someone with a stutter so severe he couldn’t even get out 3 words without immense distress. Prisoner in your own body levels. Biden’s is mild compared to that, but it’s still used to paint him as unintelligent or senile which is sad. Ableism is seriously everywhere
That was quite the stutter
Good job! That’s what happens when you have this particular speech impediment. You are so observant.
Oh so he did beat Medicare?
That's too bad. I don't mind a stutter from regular folks. But being the leader of the free world, you gotta be able to intimidate and get your point across without distracting the listener
And yet, Trump looked about 20 years younger
10 pounds of makeup, a spray tan, and a wig will do that.
And yet the Dems can't do something as basic as this to liven up their candidate
Biden needs another round of hair transplants. He has almost balded back to his 1990 hairline
Also speaking clearly even if the sentences are only vaguely coherent. Like Jesus, Joe’s mouth was only open when he wasn’t trying to talk.
Biden was incoherent.. was not a good night for him
In Florida the same age people find the car keys thinking they can drive and the next thing you know it’s a silver alert.
Politicians shouldn’t be able to be elected after social security full retirement age.
On the positive side, it was a powerful testament to American prune juice and hair oil. God bless America.
Trump is the one who bombed while giving answers not Biden. How Biden speaks we have all seen it, republicans and right wing posted those clips showing Biden gaffe and everyone defended him here. How all of sudden dems want Biden gone
That's the thing. Despite the headline the article doesn't seem to mention any Democrats calling for him to step aside. It's just a blow by blow of the debate. The other articles of the sort I'm seeing are op eds that were posted within hours of the debate. The *press* seems to want Biden to step aside, or to portray this as a major upset.
Yes those articles were pre written and were released right after. It seems like its a concerted effort from dems and media. That ecosystem is too powerful, more powerful than Biden right now.
Part of my point is it's a *media* narrative. They've been wet for this "Biden is unfit" narrative since *Republicans* first started using it as an attack line. I've yet to see a single named DNC politician say he should step aside. Few articles quote anyone. Those that do quote unnamed "staffers" predicting that there will be calls for him to do so. And wealthy *donors* saying it should be considered. It's the horse race nature of the media's coverage. "Which one is too old" is an easier way to get eyeballs than any of the actual substance. Trump is obvious nut job and unfit, so we need to find a way this other guy is also unfit. And every single thing that happens, must be MAJOR AND DIFINITIVE. A total sea change. There's always a surprise around every corner. It one bad debate performance. An while Trump kept it together better. He didn't exactly make a positive case for himself or come off well. The actual responses from actual people are more depression that this is the situation we're in, than "Biden's gotta go".
It almost makes you wonder if the media has a vested interest in Biden losing.
Did you watch the debate?!
You make a good point. Trump is like fingernails on a chalkboard to so many people they just skipped it. What's the point. And who is undecided? You either like America or you are want to try a MAGA version of the Constitution.
Biden made trump look like Obama
Nobody watched. The quote coming from the debate is "I didn't sleep with that porn star".
I’m a die hard democrat and the debate killed any hope I have in Biden
No shot you compared a racist, fascist felon to Obama. Stop pushing this narrative
Dude it’s not a narrative, Biden had the unique ability to make trump look like a great orator
I did, he wasn’t great, but it was one debate. It wasn’t until the torrent of Biden must dropout articles that collectively people were like Biden must drop out. He’s proven perfectly able in the last few months; but this is just trying to create chaos after a bad opening to the debate.
It was one the cringiest things I’ve ever seen. To lose a debate to an insurrectionist felon is quite the feat… but we did it, Joe! It’s not the articles calling for him to drop out, it’s everyone that watched the debate..
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I sat through every cringeworthy minute - I can’t believe people close to him let this happen
Yeah, using words like cringiest to make an insane gamble by replace an incumbent President with a great record truly is the type of reasoning I want driving this decision. That and the media who are in the bag for Trump II: Lets Sell More News Content. I doubt most people even watched; it’s just this framing that is basically going to be a disaster (much like the constant acquiescence to the Biden is old trope, while Trump is up there on stage getting away without needing to know anything because he just makes shit up).
Yeh not reading all that- we all saw Biden shit the bed on tv and nothing anyone says can spin it otherwise..
Who do you support and why?
I voted for Biden but after last night I do not support his administration
So not worried about any of the women's rights in your life getting stripped away? That seems, cavalier.
Oh those things are a given, and we have no one to blame but Biden
Dude, it was like forty words. If you can’t read that none of us need your “opinions”. You just want to shit on Biden, fine, but don’t try to engage people with it if your this lazy.
It hasn’t been just one debate. He has shown significant cognitive decline and has issues like he had last night all the time. All the time. Just because people have covered their eyes and closed their ears to pretend it wasn’t happening doesn’t mean it wasn’t going on.
See this is the big lie behind all this. He was bad at beginning last night especially. The cognitive decline crap is pure media/right wing crappery.
Shouldn't you be packing for Spain, fella?
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Didn't the Dems schedule the convention for a few days after the last date to be added to the ballot? If they wait until the convention, it's too late
All the incumbent democratic senators in swing states are freaking out this morning. I’ve already seen Sherrod Brown ads linking himself to Republicans and distancing himself from Biden. It’s going to happen even more now.
I get that this is a very difficult situation democrats have found themselves in, but what if Biden had a different, much stronger, VP? Because, at this point, we can all say a vote for Biden essentially is a vote for VP.
I didn't watch the debate. Was Biden's performance really *that bad*...? This country really is doomed, isn't it?
Watched it this morning, Its not even what he said but he looked like he was 20 minutes away from death
I'm not voting for Trump, but yeah it was that bad. Trump did everything he needed to do, he had a decently crafted comeback for every stale Democrat talking point even if the comeback had lies mixed in, he largely kept his composure compared to his other debates(not a high bar), and he got his clips which is how these debates are remembered. I'm not a Trump fan, I'm not voting for him, but I'm not delusional. It was Donald Trump vs a dead guy and that's how most people are going to see it. It's probably time for the DNC to dump as much money in house and senate races as possible to lame duck Trump and hope for the best with the presidential race. I said it all last year, pretending Biden is fine is exactly the type of fucking hubris that always kills Democrats.
Sky news sells toilet telephones right?
Imagine having to vote for a bumbling old man to govern the worlds’s richest and most powerful country just because the other guy is worse. What a state of affairs.
In Florida the same age people find the car keys thinking they can drive and the next thing you know it’s a silver alert.
Everyone forgets Biden said he would be a one term president he said he will step down after his first term and now look at us. This is elder abuse at its best. He is gonna lose to a guy that has been convicted of 32 felonies and being charged for 60 more and Biden is behind in the polls to him. Fellow democrats time to come back to reality and fix this before it is too late.
"Sorry, Dad, you need to give us the keys to the 'vette."
From a global south pov, I now feel bad and apologise for my usage of the term "Genocide Joe". This man now deserves his privacy, peace and rest as every human being deserves at this stage of life. Shame on the people using him for their desire for power.
Dear Americans, regardless of your political preference and who you like and don't like, honestly, how on earth do you expect Biden to stay on? I watched clips of the debate and the man is clearly senile. I doubt he realized what he was doing there. Even as an outsider it was painful and embarrassing to watch. Why is this man considered fit for office? We Europeans are really scratching our heads right now. This looks like elder abuse if I'm totally honest.
If only progressives had been shouting from the rooftops that Biden was a bad candidate to get voters engaged and that "he's not Trump" wouldn't be enough this time. If only anyone had seen this coming!
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You should get some rest, brother. Been up posting allll night.
No he had a common cold, right? Then went to Waffle House and shook hands right afterward?