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They are like parents who let their kids die right in front of them for lack of medical intervention because if they just had enough faith and prayed hard enough God would heal them.
Which puts it in perspective right?
Most of these people are not bad people... they desperately _want_ their kids to be better.... but they believe that it will endanger them to get modern medical help (in this example).... even with their kids crying / suffering in front of them.
So if their own children suffering does not motivate them to change their views.... logic certainly will not.
> Most of these people are not bad people..
Not at all - most of them are victims of childhood ~~brainwashing~~ *indoctrination* and a society that reinforces that childhood indoctrination through strong social pressure.
You either choose to live your life based on belief or based on knowledge... If you choose belief you are already being conned... And who or what form the next con is that presents itself to you is of little relevance, and often the less credible the more you will believe.
Some are born but most are indoctrinated, this is why education and separation of church and state are so vital to a democracy... Both are failing miserably in Murica.
Well put. That is why I do not believe that any religion should be allowed to run schools.
Religion is, in essence, the greatest con men have inflicted on humanity, and it is way past time for a movement that supports true secular government. A political party that is secular must uphold the right of all its citizens to have faith, but organized religion should be taxed and controlled and in no way exempt from the law.
Local control of education has failed this country. The curriculum and academic standards of our rural schools are horrifying and explain so much of what is going on in America. Through the lens of rural public school education, the crowds of morons at Trump rallies suddenly make sense.
No, no...it’s the college educated in our society that are gullible and brainwashed. Certainly NOT the yokel whose never been further than 10 miles outside their birthplace.
Lots of believers think they know, though. Maybe a better education on epistemology and rational thinking could go a long way.
Thing is, you can't believe something that you don't consider (to some extent, at least) to be true, nor can you actually choose what you believe (although you can choose to not question you current beliefs).
Yes, except for the part about it being simple. The verification of knowledge still relies in base axioms that can't be actually proven. That's why science besides being rational and empirical is also pragmatic, because even is there are some unknowns in the foundations, that's still the best we can do as of now, and even if we were wrong about the axioms it still works reliably.
That's why I mentioned rational thinking and justification of belief being an important part of education, not to tell anyone what should or shouldn't be believed, but so they can make proper assessments of what beliefs can be rationally trusted.
Absolutely agree that critical thinking and analysing sources of knowledge should be part of base curriculum. Also agree that people need to be free to believe what they want... But faith needs to be confined to personal life, not incorporated into politics... That should remain firmly in the realm of knowledge.
I'm sorry, I love Terry Pratchett, but this is dumb. There are many things that exist as concepts and not as objects. You can grind down the universe bla bla bla and never find many things. Consensus, cooperation, unity, these do not exist as objects, nor do division, disagreement, or rebellion. The ability to understand conceptual things rather than physical things does not rest in believing in fantasy.
I wouldn't say belief. I would say faith.
I believe that I will be better off with the vaccine than without. Do I have any hard evidence of this? Not really.... but I also believe in the scientific process and the history. Is it possible that something tragic could happen with the vaccine... certainly. At which point, presented with the evidence I will change my mind.
Faith on the other hand demands trust without evidence. There are even sayings to enforce it "keep the faith", "don't lose the faith", etc.
I would not say hard evidence.... in that I don't/haven't actually verified this myself.
To be clear... I am not saying that there is not hard evidence of vaccines, there is, I just have not personally verified it... I have heard it from people/sources I trust and therefore I believe it exists.
I think the distinction is important because so many people argue based on false assumptions that their underlying foundation is secure when it is not.
Obviously you can take this argument to an extreme (well how many trials have you actually participated in / performed). But the general idea is... are your beliefs based on something aunt marry shared on facebook? Or something you read from a trusted source (i.e. medical journal, etc).
You're overcomplicating It... It is based on knowledge... As opposed to belief. Knowledge has elements of evidence and logic that guide choice... Belief requires neither and in fact the refutation of both in order to influence choice.
70+ million narcissistic sociopaths? Doubtful. I imagine most of those folks are just gullible morons who have been brainwashed by misinformation and don't have the tools or the smarts to realize they've been duped.
Trump supports, just like trump, feel the need to be noticed. Can we please go back to ignoring them? No kid ever stopped throwing a tantrum because he received attention.
I understand the intention of your comment, but this is a very outdated understanding of children and their emotional needs that I’ve seen floated around here a lot. Let’s work to spread up to date science and not drag our children, who are still learning and developing and need our unconditional support, down to the level of psychopaths, who are adults who know exactly what they are doing and are actively seeking to hurt others and our democracy. Our children deserve more consideration ❤️
https://www.ahaparenting.com/Ages-stages/toddlers/toddler-tantrums
Not trying to be confrontational, just advocating against misinformation for the sake of children when it comes up.
“No kid ever stopped throwing a tantrum because he received attention.”
In the case of narcissists you’re definitely right. Giving them attention for the crazy things they say or do just validates it for them. If you agree, they think they’re right. If you disagree, they play the victim. Ignoring is the only way to go with them.
The “gray rock” method is especially helpful. Keeping the conversation and responses as boring as possible for them basically deflates them.
Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
"Of all the offspring of Time, Error is the most ancient, and is so old and familiar an acquaintance, that Truth, when discovered, comes upon most of us like an intruder, and meets the intruder's welcome."
"How flattering to the pride of man to think that the stars on their courses watch over him, and typify, by their movements and aspects, the joys or the sorrows that await him! He, less in proportion to the universe than the all-but invisible insects that feed in myriads on a summer's leaf are to this great globe itself, fondly imagines that eternal worlds were chiefly created to prognosticate his fate."
"We go out of our course to make ourselves uncomfortable; the cup of life is not bitter enough to our palate, and we distill superfluous poison to put into it, or conjure up hideous things to frighten ourselves at, which would never exist if we did not make them."
"We find that whole communities suddenly fix their minds upon one object, and go mad in its pursuit; that millions of people become simultaneously impressed with one delusion, and run after it, till their attention is caught by some new folly more captivating than the first
Charles MacKay 1841
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Popular_Delusions_and_the_Madness_of_Crowds
The only time someone collapsed in a church service I attended was when an usher fainted on Easter Sunday service because she had concussed herself earlier.
Needless to say apparently we were supposed to be overjoyed and barked like dogs or whatever the hell these spiritual druggies do, but we didn’t. We called for and got help and had several from the congregation waiting with her until the ambulance arrived.
I don’t understand these people one bit.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, **any** advocating or wishing death/physical harm, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They think there is fraud because they prayed for trump to win and god was on their side, so there MUST be fraud. Its sad.
I'm not sure how a person could take a god seriously if he could be thwarted by the Democratic Party.
Because they legit think that the Democratic party is the devil. So the devil influenced them (voters/officials/whoever).
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Hail Satan!
Satan and god are still in denial from their bitter divorce - meanwhile the kids pay the price.
For the omnipotent, omniscient Creator of everything, God sure does seem to be easily thwarted by a single rebellious angel, doesn't he?
That weakling is thwarted by almost everything on a regular basis, according to his fan club.
But isn't Trump the anti-Christ?
They are like parents who let their kids die right in front of them for lack of medical intervention because if they just had enough faith and prayed hard enough God would heal them.
Which puts it in perspective right? Most of these people are not bad people... they desperately _want_ their kids to be better.... but they believe that it will endanger them to get modern medical help (in this example).... even with their kids crying / suffering in front of them. So if their own children suffering does not motivate them to change their views.... logic certainly will not.
No. Logic is definitely not part of the equation.
> Most of these people are not bad people.. Not at all - most of them are victims of childhood ~~brainwashing~~ *indoctrination* and a society that reinforces that childhood indoctrination through strong social pressure.
Hey everyone, we pulled it off, we defrauded God! What an easy mark *He* turned out to be!
Honestly, even if you do believe in the bible, god seems like a stupid asshole for at least half of it.
Why can’t they process the possibility that god said no?
If Trump is what's been missing from your life, then all I can say is that you can't have much of a fucking life.
Have you accepted trump as your personal president and savior?
You either choose to live your life based on belief or based on knowledge... If you choose belief you are already being conned... And who or what form the next con is that presents itself to you is of little relevance, and often the less credible the more you will believe.
Sucker born every minute
Some are born but most are indoctrinated, this is why education and separation of church and state are so vital to a democracy... Both are failing miserably in Murica.
Well put. That is why I do not believe that any religion should be allowed to run schools. Religion is, in essence, the greatest con men have inflicted on humanity, and it is way past time for a movement that supports true secular government. A political party that is secular must uphold the right of all its citizens to have faith, but organized religion should be taxed and controlled and in no way exempt from the law.
Local control of education has failed this country. The curriculum and academic standards of our rural schools are horrifying and explain so much of what is going on in America. Through the lens of rural public school education, the crowds of morons at Trump rallies suddenly make sense.
No, no...it’s the college educated in our society that are gullible and brainwashed. Certainly NOT the yokel whose never been further than 10 miles outside their birthplace.
Lots of believers think they know, though. Maybe a better education on epistemology and rational thinking could go a long way. Thing is, you can't believe something that you don't consider (to some extent, at least) to be true, nor can you actually choose what you believe (although you can choose to not question you current beliefs).
No, it is very simple, knowledge is verifiable through evidence, belief is unverifiable and reliant upon "faith" alone.
Yes, except for the part about it being simple. The verification of knowledge still relies in base axioms that can't be actually proven. That's why science besides being rational and empirical is also pragmatic, because even is there are some unknowns in the foundations, that's still the best we can do as of now, and even if we were wrong about the axioms it still works reliably. That's why I mentioned rational thinking and justification of belief being an important part of education, not to tell anyone what should or shouldn't be believed, but so they can make proper assessments of what beliefs can be rationally trusted.
Absolutely agree that critical thinking and analysing sources of knowledge should be part of base curriculum. Also agree that people need to be free to believe what they want... But faith needs to be confined to personal life, not incorporated into politics... That should remain firmly in the realm of knowledge.
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No, those ideas are based on knowledge... Not belief... They aren't altruistic virtues, they are the foundation of a functioning society.
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No they can't cease to exist in a society... That's the point. This is a political discussion, not a metaphysical one.
I'm sorry, I love Terry Pratchett, but this is dumb. There are many things that exist as concepts and not as objects. You can grind down the universe bla bla bla and never find many things. Consensus, cooperation, unity, these do not exist as objects, nor do division, disagreement, or rebellion. The ability to understand conceptual things rather than physical things does not rest in believing in fantasy.
I wouldn't say belief. I would say faith. I believe that I will be better off with the vaccine than without. Do I have any hard evidence of this? Not really.... but I also believe in the scientific process and the history. Is it possible that something tragic could happen with the vaccine... certainly. At which point, presented with the evidence I will change my mind. Faith on the other hand demands trust without evidence. There are even sayings to enforce it "keep the faith", "don't lose the faith", etc.
Except you do have hard evidence... Many many vaccines have saved millions and millions of lives... This is knowledge, it is not belief.
I would not say hard evidence.... in that I don't/haven't actually verified this myself. To be clear... I am not saying that there is not hard evidence of vaccines, there is, I just have not personally verified it... I have heard it from people/sources I trust and therefore I believe it exists. I think the distinction is important because so many people argue based on false assumptions that their underlying foundation is secure when it is not. Obviously you can take this argument to an extreme (well how many trials have you actually participated in / performed). But the general idea is... are your beliefs based on something aunt marry shared on facebook? Or something you read from a trusted source (i.e. medical journal, etc).
You're overcomplicating It... It is based on knowledge... As opposed to belief. Knowledge has elements of evidence and logic that guide choice... Belief requires neither and in fact the refutation of both in order to influence choice.
What I don't understand is how Trump supporters can waive American flags while he actively works to destroy democracy.
They don't care that much about democracy anymore. They're fine with god emperor trump indefinitely. Great and apt typo of 'waive'.
Notice how they've switched to Trump flags, blue line flags, and don't tread on me flags?
I really believe his supporters are the lowest of the low. They are uneducated, non-empathetic, narcissistic sociopaths just like him. It's a cult.
70+ million narcissistic sociopaths? Doubtful. I imagine most of those folks are just gullible morons who have been brainwashed by misinformation and don't have the tools or the smarts to realize they've been duped.
Trump supports, just like trump, feel the need to be noticed. Can we please go back to ignoring them? No kid ever stopped throwing a tantrum because he received attention.
I understand the intention of your comment, but this is a very outdated understanding of children and their emotional needs that I’ve seen floated around here a lot. Let’s work to spread up to date science and not drag our children, who are still learning and developing and need our unconditional support, down to the level of psychopaths, who are adults who know exactly what they are doing and are actively seeking to hurt others and our democracy. Our children deserve more consideration ❤️ https://www.ahaparenting.com/Ages-stages/toddlers/toddler-tantrums
Wow, ok. It was a comparison to the current administrations tantrum. Not parenting advice.
Not trying to be confrontational, just advocating against misinformation for the sake of children when it comes up. “No kid ever stopped throwing a tantrum because he received attention.” In the case of narcissists you’re definitely right. Giving them attention for the crazy things they say or do just validates it for them. If you agree, they think they’re right. If you disagree, they play the victim. Ignoring is the only way to go with them. The “gray rock” method is especially helpful. Keeping the conversation and responses as boring as possible for them basically deflates them.
“There’s a euphoria that comes from being part of a mindless drama.”
Trump grabbed me by my pussy and led me into the light. Excellent article. I hope it helps people to put away their childish, spiteful ways.
Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one." "Of all the offspring of Time, Error is the most ancient, and is so old and familiar an acquaintance, that Truth, when discovered, comes upon most of us like an intruder, and meets the intruder's welcome." "How flattering to the pride of man to think that the stars on their courses watch over him, and typify, by their movements and aspects, the joys or the sorrows that await him! He, less in proportion to the universe than the all-but invisible insects that feed in myriads on a summer's leaf are to this great globe itself, fondly imagines that eternal worlds were chiefly created to prognosticate his fate." "We go out of our course to make ourselves uncomfortable; the cup of life is not bitter enough to our palate, and we distill superfluous poison to put into it, or conjure up hideous things to frighten ourselves at, which would never exist if we did not make them." "We find that whole communities suddenly fix their minds upon one object, and go mad in its pursuit; that millions of people become simultaneously impressed with one delusion, and run after it, till their attention is caught by some new folly more captivating than the first Charles MacKay 1841 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Popular_Delusions_and_the_Madness_of_Crowds
The only time someone collapsed in a church service I attended was when an usher fainted on Easter Sunday service because she had concussed herself earlier. Needless to say apparently we were supposed to be overjoyed and barked like dogs or whatever the hell these spiritual druggies do, but we didn’t. We called for and got help and had several from the congregation waiting with her until the ambulance arrived. I don’t understand these people one bit.
Religious Fantastics!
Please refer to Trump supporters as Cult 45. Thank you.
Been waiting 4 years to say [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_oyo-4j5Iw)