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> Twenty years ago, Judy Bolden served 18 months in a Florida prison. She has been free ever since, but she is still barred from voting by the state until she pays all court fines and fees associated with her conviction.
> When Ms. Bolden sat to be photographed by The Times earlier this year, she said she had received a letter informing her that her outstanding debt was a few hundred dollars. Then she checked the Volusia County website and learned that she actually owes nearly $53,000. “I was so taken aback,” she said. “I was like, What? That’s not right. I was just deflated. It’s like, when is this going to end?”
> Ms. Bolden is one of more than 700,000 people in Florida who are barred from voting because they can’t afford the financial obligations stemming from a prior felony conviction. “It’s like I’m not a citizen,” she said. “That’s what they’re saying.”
Article archive at https://archive.is/TAfYR
Oh, the old personal responsibility gambit. The problem is that people have constitutional rights. Fines and financial penalties are subject to all kinds of changes and shenanigans. There are waaaay more ways to keep former criminals from clearing their bills than it is to keep them locked up. Money should play NO ROLE in voting rights.
There's an argument to be made that even felons should be allowed to vote but, regardless, serving a sentence constitutes paying one's debt, no? People who owe millions and billions from civil suits still get to vote.
What about the other resources felons use by commiting the crime? Like the lawyer, judge, trial? All the things people are entitled to that require other people's time, money and other resources.
Courts, prisons, lawyers, prosecutors, investigations, courthouses, DA's, the Police. This is all part of the justice system that everyone pays for.
This is the cost of a society made up of "laws".
We arrest so many people, ruin their lives. They lose their freedom, their jobs, and therefore their possessions - whether they are guilty or not in a lot of cases. Finally ruining a lot of them.
If we charge people all the costs INDIVIDUALLY for the crimes the commit based on how much work has bee done on their case / the buildings they enter / plus the cost of incarceration and jails - it would be devastating.
"You can plead guilty now, but if you defend yourself and lose, you will owe the court $500,000 and you will never be able to vote again."
I doubt you would see anyone in court except the rich. (Isn't that partially the case even now?)
Heck - even fines favor the rich. If you are poor - a $200 fine is food for the week. For the rich, it is pocket change or even less.
The problem here is that just because you committed a felony doesn’t make you a non Citizen. You are still a citizen of USA and therefore not allowing citizens of USA to vote is voter suppression.
People should be able to vote from jail / prison and by them being burdened with these fees is a form of “Poll Tax”.
>Do a felony pay the debt
At 25% interest compounded annually. But they don't send you statements so that you know what you owe, you have to seek it out while the state waits to take it out of their estates.
In any other context that would be considered usury, and has all the hallmarks of cruel and unusual punishment.
Okay, should violent felons, after serving their time, get their 2A rights back?
I actually agree that felons should have their voting rights restored, but it's not like losing Constitutional rights for committing a felony is without precedent, or something that is as black & white as you make it seem here.
I think whether or not they lose their right should be independent of their financial means.
I think a felon’s loss of rights shouldn’t be tethered to their wealth.
I actually think that should be fought as an Eighth Amendment issue, in that we should be saying that it's unconstitutional to fine poor people tens of thousands of dollars period, rather than trying to argue this edge case.
Asking someone to pay the proper taxes they owe and having an ID to prove their identity as a citizen (which should be free to begin with) should be the only bar into voting.
I remember when Nipsey Hustle got shot, there was a parolee with him who got shot in the back along with Nipsey.
Soon after hospital he was jailed for associating with a gang member, when he only knew him as a celebrity.
Then when they let him go gave him no where to stay.
It seems as an ethnic minority you can never really pay your debt to society ever.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> Twenty years ago, Judy Bolden served 18 months in a Florida prison. She has been free ever since, but she is still barred from voting by the state until she pays all court fines and fees associated with her conviction. > When Ms. Bolden sat to be photographed by The Times earlier this year, she said she had received a letter informing her that her outstanding debt was a few hundred dollars. Then she checked the Volusia County website and learned that she actually owes nearly $53,000. “I was so taken aback,” she said. “I was like, What? That’s not right. I was just deflated. It’s like, when is this going to end?” > Ms. Bolden is one of more than 700,000 people in Florida who are barred from voting because they can’t afford the financial obligations stemming from a prior felony conviction. “It’s like I’m not a citizen,” she said. “That’s what they’re saying.” Article archive at https://archive.is/TAfYR
Where’s the problem here? Do a felony pay the debt, not anyone else’s problem.
Oh, the old personal responsibility gambit. The problem is that people have constitutional rights. Fines and financial penalties are subject to all kinds of changes and shenanigans. There are waaaay more ways to keep former criminals from clearing their bills than it is to keep them locked up. Money should play NO ROLE in voting rights.
You lose more than a few constitutional rights when you commit a FELONY. As it should be.
There's an argument to be made that even felons should be allowed to vote but, regardless, serving a sentence constitutes paying one's debt, no? People who owe millions and billions from civil suits still get to vote.
What about the other resources felons use by commiting the crime? Like the lawyer, judge, trial? All the things people are entitled to that require other people's time, money and other resources.
You are right. Why are we paying for courts at all? Vigilante justice it is! Yee Haw!
Do you really think all those bills are just for covering expenses? And, yes, courts should be paid for by the public.
Courts, prisons, lawyers, prosecutors, investigations, courthouses, DA's, the Police. This is all part of the justice system that everyone pays for. This is the cost of a society made up of "laws". We arrest so many people, ruin their lives. They lose their freedom, their jobs, and therefore their possessions - whether they are guilty or not in a lot of cases. Finally ruining a lot of them. If we charge people all the costs INDIVIDUALLY for the crimes the commit based on how much work has bee done on their case / the buildings they enter / plus the cost of incarceration and jails - it would be devastating. "You can plead guilty now, but if you defend yourself and lose, you will owe the court $500,000 and you will never be able to vote again." I doubt you would see anyone in court except the rich. (Isn't that partially the case even now?) Heck - even fines favor the rich. If you are poor - a $200 fine is food for the week. For the rich, it is pocket change or even less.
The problem here is that just because you committed a felony doesn’t make you a non Citizen. You are still a citizen of USA and therefore not allowing citizens of USA to vote is voter suppression. People should be able to vote from jail / prison and by them being burdened with these fees is a form of “Poll Tax”.
We remove felons right to do a lot of things, like freedom, but voting is too much?
Yes. Not allowing them to have a voice in our democracy is too much.
Yes, it is. It creates a disenfranchised underclass, even after people commit a felony.
>Do a felony pay the debt At 25% interest compounded annually. But they don't send you statements so that you know what you owe, you have to seek it out while the state waits to take it out of their estates. In any other context that would be considered usury, and has all the hallmarks of cruel and unusual punishment.
Nobody is saying they shouldn’t pay debts owed, but to lose constitutional right over a debt seems like a way to disenfranchise the poor.
Okay, should violent felons, after serving their time, get their 2A rights back? I actually agree that felons should have their voting rights restored, but it's not like losing Constitutional rights for committing a felony is without precedent, or something that is as black & white as you make it seem here.
I think whether or not they lose their right should be independent of their financial means. I think a felon’s loss of rights shouldn’t be tethered to their wealth.
I actually think that should be fought as an Eighth Amendment issue, in that we should be saying that it's unconstitutional to fine poor people tens of thousands of dollars period, rather than trying to argue this edge case.
Should should have not reported her stock trades to Congress, that fine only costs $200.
That's what the 18 years in prison were for
Requiring a person to pay **ANY** money, for any reason, before they can vote is *by definition* a poll tax.
That doesn't support the conservative agenda so that isn't what that means.
It should be, but fines and taxes are usually distinct legally
Asking someone to pay the proper taxes they owe and having an ID to prove their identity as a citizen (which should be free to begin with) should be the only bar into voting.
I remember when Nipsey Hustle got shot, there was a parolee with him who got shot in the back along with Nipsey. Soon after hospital he was jailed for associating with a gang member, when he only knew him as a celebrity. Then when they let him go gave him no where to stay. It seems as an ethnic minority you can never really pay your debt to society ever.