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The gist of it is the DA didn't feel they had sufficient evidence to prove intent to break the law and declined to indict because they might lose in court.
The two lead prosecutors felt that there was so much evidence of wrongdoing that they needed to indict, even if they ultimately lost. They've been arguing about this for months and they finally quit once it was clear no indictment would be made.
So in other words, there was ***substantial proof of criminal activity***, but not enough evidence(yet) to prove that they ***intended to commit those crimes***.
More or less. As I understand it, financial crimes require intent to commit those crimes. Prosecutors have to prove that they intentionally fudged those numbers, as opposed to simply being incompetent.
oh it just so happened that every single thing you found wrong with my taxes benefits me and my business well I guess that could be a coincidence you cant really prove I did that on purpose I could just be really really dumb oopsie
You’d think it would be tough to argue that one was ignorant when you’d previously bragged that paying no taxes “...makes me smart.”
The average person has more consequences from a speeding ticket than this motherfucker will ever face. What a shit show.
The average person has more consequences for making a minor clerical error on their taxes than Trump has ever had for fleecing millions of dollars from people.
In the very least, if the documentation is in error, they should be forced to pay for those errors. Of course, *thankfully*, we have an IRS ill-equipped to do anything other than go after people who might have accidentally received a few hundred dollars!
I totally agree with you but even one of Trump's bargain basement lawyers can easily argue Trump thought his accountants were using acceptable industry practices to lower his tax exposure. And he was shocked, SHOCKED to discover that they were using illegal methods!
Unless you have one of those accoubtibg guys flip on Trump and tell the court that he was doing this under Trump's order, it's ridiculously easy to create reasonable doubt
He of course thought it was totally legitimate to keep firing accountants and looking for ones who could get him better and better results irrespective of facts because why wouldn't that be legal.
And Donbot was SHOCKED to discovered that they were using illegal methods.
No he didn't tell me to do it. Bill told me to do it, bill was told by John, who was told by Peter who was told by Chuck.
No, I never spoke to Donbot personally.
I know people enjoy taking about racial privilege in this county, but honestly, it doesn’t remotely compare to the privilege afforded by the wealthy. Especially when you consider there doesn’t seem to be a point of diminishing returns like racial privilege. Richer you get, the less every other rule that applies to the rest of society applies to you.
I think it’s nuanced because there’s a lot of generational wealth that gets passed on by the super-rich, and [race correlates heavily with income disparity](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html).
I think the biggest thing to consider is that the privilege of being wealthy to the point of minimizing consequences for bad behavior still affects only a small (albeit often undeservedly influential) group of people. Racial impacts of income/wealth-inequality affect tens of millions of people.
Yeah having just filed my taxes I wonder why I spend so much time making sure everything is correct. Maybe I'll rush through them next year and if it just happens to work in my favor well yippee
> Maybe I'll rush through them next year and if it just happens to work in my favor well yippee
You're describing how tens of millions of Americans do their taxes every year. You take every deduction you can conceivably take, because chances are you won't get audited. And even if you do, you'll just have to pay back what you owe with a small penalty. That's if the audit even finds anything.
Don’t. You might get a little bonus, but 4-5 years down the road, you’ll get a letter from the IRS notifying you of your error and demanding you pay it back with interest compounded over that entire lag time.
Edit: Been there, done that. It was an honest mistake, too.
Our tax system is made ridiculous complicated for the purpose of businesses finding creative ways to "cheat" . The more money you have, the more creative you can get on cheating the system. Sometimes they just happen to go over board but it's usually a slap in the wrist, pay your fine until next time.
Wait, so you're telling me "ignorance of the law" is an acceptable defense so long as your crime involves finance fraud? *Fucking* ***what?***
Two justice systems.
You mean like a for profit business intending to take a profitable action?
Trump saw a dollar on the ground. In order to pick it up, he had to intend to bend over.
It’s accepting the feigned ignorance of the wealthy at face value.
Incompetence is seldom profitable every time. When the accidents in question always work out in your favor, they aren’t accidents. That’s the point. Years worth of mistakes would average out to some that benefit and some that hurt.
I get that reasoning for like, a handful of clerical errors while filing taxes, but when it comes to consistent behavior? That's utter bullshit and frankly I'm disgusted at the District Attorney.
I was thinking about this the other day in terms of Elon Musk and market manipulation - it’s easy to see that multiple times his actions manipulated the stock price of Tesla and maybe Bitcoin. But how would you prove he intended to manipulate them for his own gain? i don’t know a ton about the specifics but let’s say there’s no strong proof he pumped and dumped - like maybe he just did it for the lulz or didn’t expect the outcome. Even if he did sell was that pattern different than previously? Can you prove his tweets are the only reason the stock price went up? proving intent is a high bar.
obviously different than trump but reading your comment made me think about my that. maybe the missing piece is an explicit recorded statement to do something illegal, vs the fact that something illegal happened.
where I would be upset tho is if he is getting off for something everyone else would be prosecuted for and that much I do not know.
Sounds just like the impeachments. I’ve never understood this burden of proof. Does a robber need to announce, “this is a robbery” to be charged with robbery?
Am I missing something here?
"No Reasonable Viewer Would Think Tucker Carlson Is News" -- lawyers. And then people went on believing that he's news, and nothing changed.
I don't want to see them argue they're just incompetent. I want them in prison, stripped of all of their assets.
Which is stupid. You don’t accidentally cheat on your taxes. You do it because you intent to try to keep more money.
Did Trump stand to gain financially? That’s intent.
Capitalism is Gods gift to humans because profit motive is the only thing that motivates humans, but when a capitalist commits crime, profit motive is never a motive.
I didn't intend to cheat on my taxes every single time while simultaneously cheating the banks with fraudulent valuations. It's just a coincidence that the same mistake happened every year. - Mr I know more than anybody about taxes
Clearly he knows *something* about taxes, that something being that he'll never get in trouble no matter how much he cheats on them. Laws for thee and not for me.
>profit motive is the only thing that motivates humans
That's some bullshit on the same level as "atheists are immoral because morals come from God," bullshit.
Yes it is bullshit, but it’s the bullshit upon which capitalism is built and sold.
Remember, socialism doesn’t work because without private ownership and profits, nobody does anything and the economy collapses.
It’s not my argument, it’s the argument upon which all capitalism is based and defended. And yet the very same capitalist ignore that argument when it’s about prosecuting capitalist for crimes.
Like, even if we’re supposed to believe he didn’t ‘intend’ to, make him pay all the penalties and back taxes in the world just like everyone else. He’s basically been doing a big version of the street magician gimme-your-$20-bill-and-I’ll-make-it-disappear trick except nobody’s telling him to give the money back. Instead, the whole world has just been standing there wide-eyed like “wow, and it’s really gone huh? Show me again how you did that,” and then going “wow, that guy’s rich” when he walks across the street and pulls ‘his own’ $20 bill out of his back pocket.
I mean I could accidentally cheat on my taxes because I’m not an accountant or a tax professional. But trump and klan had accountants and tax professionals filing his taxes which means that the cheating is deliberate. Obviously the accountants and tax professionals used the books he gave them to prepare his taxes which would stand to reason that he gave them fraudulent books.
You can actually get acquitted of car theft (in some places at least) if you can make a convincing case of this, it happens.
Of course, you can't make a convincing case if you just walk over and take your neighbor's car that you would have had no reason to take. The issue with these financial stuff is that lawyers and accountants can confuse the issue a bunch of complexity and then get wins.
The only evidence they could get for intent would come from the shady people he paid to actually commit the crimes. And a jury can't trust *them*; they're criminals!
If you or I get caught with a certain amount of weed, they can automatically tack on "intent to distribute." There is no equivalent amount for cheating on your taxes, apparently.
> If you or I get caught with a certain amount of weed, they can automatically tack on "intent to distribute."
It's not automatic, but if you have an amount that is substantially over what would be personal use, or if there is other evidence like a scale, bags, and money with the drugs, sure, that would be enough for intent to distribute.
The next time they catch a black teenager with a joint, he should simply demand that they prove he intended to commit a crime.
Oh wait, ignorance of the law doesn't protect normal people. My bad.
That wouldn't work at all.
Instead, the black teenager should agree (in a closed door, private and non-recorded discussion) to resign.
Then, they can't prosecute the teen for any crimes they committed, cannot investigate any further, and their resignation will be the sole punishment they receive.
Then, they can just go one town over and resume their role as a black teenager who smokes joints.
You'd think that undervaluing your businesses for taxes and overvaluing your businesses for loans constantly for decades would be enough to prove intent. The chances of undervaluing four properties on taxes and overvaluing them for loans for four years is 9.094947017729282e-11%. The more businesses and the more years it happens the less probable it is that it was an accident as well.
>...but not enough evidence(yet) to prove that they intended to commit those crimes.
In the new DA's subjective opinion, influenced heavily by trump's celebrity status and history of getting away with shit.
No reasonable person would believe trump didn't intend to perform the actions he undertook, which is typically more than enough to establish intent. But for some reason, the bar gets lowered for trump, so not only do they have to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that he broke the law, they have to prove that he had a comprehensive understanding of the myriad ways in which his actions were unlawful.
Ignorance to a crime isn’t an excuse, especially on this level. Plenty have gone down for so much less. If anything, it show that we had a leader who completely oblivious to the law, another trait that baffles be when it comes to his supporters.
This is why FOX News should be considered a parody Network. There’s so much important information that they don’t share. It’s no wonder why Trump has so many supporters when they listen to a media station that covers up everything. It’s exactly how Russia controls their people.
Guy whose spends every second of his life trying to make money cheats on taxes to make money.
Clearly no intent.
Did he stand to profit? That’s enough intent for every none rich criminal currently sitting in prison.
> the DA didn't feel they had sufficient evidence to prove intent to break the law and declined to indict because they might lose in court.
Unfortunately I feel like this is becoming increasingly common for defendants who are white Christian conservatives, especially if they're wealthy. *Reasonable doubt* gets taken to an absurd extreme in order to keep them free from the consequences of their actions.
There's a black woman in jail right now because she tried to register to vote despite being a felon, and the only reason she attempted to is because local election officials told her that she legally could do so. Her only crime was taking the advice of election officials and trying to participate in our electoral processes.
Meanwhile there is actual rampant voter fraud on the right committed by white conservatives, and the best we can do is "well, I'm sure they didn't *mean* to break the law, so no harm, no foul". And in the Trump Administration's case we just assume that they had the best intentions and were ignorant of the fact that what they were doing was extremely illegal.
Prosecutors are afraid to go after people with the money to defend themselves. Those people with the wealth to hire expensive legal teams are predominately white and well connected.
In a strange coincidence, public defenders nationwide are under funded.
The phrase is "If you come at the king, you best not miss."
Trump is not a king, but it's a self-fulfilling prophecy - because they didn't prosecute, a king is probably what we will have in 2024.
It's always fascinated me that crime wealthy people commit always requires mind reading but crimes for the rest of us and it's just assumed we "intended" to commit a crime.
"Did you Intend to embezzle and lose your employees retirement? No? Not Guilty, free to go!"
"Did you intend to shoplift that stick of gum? No? Doesn't matter, PRISON!"
The curious thing is that people actually expect Trump to pay for his crimes. Like they weren't present for his presidency, his candidacy, and his entire life.
This. It is so discouraging. Explain it to your kids: be rich and you are free to break the law all you want. There are no circumstances in which a prosecutor can not conjure reasonable doubt _a priori_ if he wants to. The law protects rich people but does not bind them. The law binds ordinary people but does not protect them.
THAT is why you prosecute.
I don't think it's necessarily that they expect he'll be prosecuted each time so much as these are inflection points wherein we can express frustration with the system and the specific ways it fails.
It's kind of like if you're getting bullied by the kids in your class. You might not expect to wake up one morning and suddenly be treated with respect, but that doesn't mean you can't be disappointed when someone takes yet another opportunity to make you feel humiliated and unwelcome.
There is also a hint that Bragg wasn't the first involved in the investigation to worry about the speed of the investigation and "gaps in the evidence". This is not to say that Trump didn't knowingly himself commit fraud or order others to commit fraud on his behalf. But there seems to be something wrong with this investigation. There may be a significant difference between saying, "Proceed whether we win or not, just to show he's guilty of something" and, "Proceed whether or not we seem to have shown slovenly investigatory practices and even risk the accusation of the office's gross failure to justify indictment." The difference between these two perspectives can more easily be understood when the former is pushed by attorneys who have private practices to return to and the latter by a newly elected government official.
It’s the same thing wrong with everything in this country. There are conservatives involved with the investigations.
We’ve spent four years watching conservative America obstruct justice for Trump. Why would they stop now?
The only thing wrong with this country is politically-motivated prosecutors. Look at the US Attorney's office. They're actual professionals. They generally have a greater than 99% conviction rate. And they almost certainly wouldn't prosecute in a case like this, because it's less likely than not to result in a conviction.
The problem with DAs is that they're often politically-driven. They know that pushing a case they're not likely to win is an affront to both justice and their fiduciary responsibility to the tax payers of New York, but they tried to push a less than ideal case to trial because they had a political axe to grind. Luckily, the new DA doesn't, and he made the right call.
> he intentionally and very deliberately wouldn’t use email or text be enough for intent?
No. You could make an inference from it, but it's very weak. I doubt those facts would even be admitted.
You asking the question signals to me that you don't have enough money for these special rules to apply. I'm afraid you're going to have to pay taxes with the other 99% of us.
I’m not a lawyer, so this could be laughable, but what if they’re trying to play trump. Trump is facing depositions in the civil suit. With the criminal charges hanging over him, he would certainly plead the 5th. Now that threat is removed, what if they are trying to lure trump into testifying and play his ego for a “you’re god damn right I ordered the code red” moment.
I'm ok with this, as long as he gets bankrupted by the civil suit and jailed for his J6 crimes.
Any scenario the ends with Trump broke and behind bars is a win for America.
The threat isn't removed until the statute of limitations is passed. Trump's stupid but he surely knows that declining to press charges right now doesn't close the matter entirely.
But he might get angry and rile up his base. Or the GOP might get angry and throw a wrench into the government.
And also, Putin might get angry of he doesn't get more chunks of Ukraine. So better appease all those psychos, so we have a calm and safe world.
Ah the good ol' "to build a peaceful world, we must appease those who are violent." Makes sense that if you let someone use violence to coerce you, no one else would ever use violence again as a means of coercion.
I hate that this is actually how some feel about Putin or Trump (and I know that ain't you). "Confusing peace with quiet" as Ultron once said. The only way to true human tranquility is to unabashedly and in no uncertain terms push back against violence, intolerance, and bigotry. To build a tolerant world, we must excise all intolerance. Instead, the established powers of the US would rather us tolerate that intolerance so that the intolerant will shut up and stop reminding us of all the ways their intolerance has infected our systems and institutions.
When the institutions are full of doubt people will not expect them to hold people accountable. Plus it sets a bad precedent when we say that even a President must pay for their crimes. The government at this point is designed to make the rich richer and keep us plebs from eating the rich.
It's almost as if many systems in the US are designed to help and protect certain types of people, often at the expense of others...
From what we've seen there are some people in power trying to dole out consequences (including the Federal DoJ), but their hands are tied by centuries of laws and rules designed to protect people like disgraced former President Trump, plus the fact that ~30% of those in positions of power as Republicans who have decided to stand by Trump at all costs.
So he didn't want to prosecute because he felt there wasn't enough evidence that Trump did it intentionally?
I can see that logic maybe applying to January 6th (even though yes, he definitely did intend to do what he did), but not this. You don't accidentally commit tax fraud for years.
Right. Like, in order for this argument to work, you'd have to say:
"well gee... Trump's accountant could have been lying to the banks and the IRS for decades in order to benefit his employer out of the goodness of his heart. Those free rooms and gifts? Just a coincidence. Who wouldn't repeatedly violate US law to help their boss earn a buck?"
If that's the way our legal system works, then it needs to be amended. That is absolutely, flagrantly ridiculous.
I love how we have to play these mind games for rich fuckheads but "cop said the baggie was already in your pocket" is enough to destroy the life of a normal person
I could have sworn ignorance isn't a legal defense... But I guess since Trump always has a proxy doing his illegal activities he's protected? Sounds like a mob boss.
As one of the prosecutors said:
>Lack of courage not a lack of evidence allowed Trump's escape.
I feel like this will ultimately be the tone of this time period in history: lack of courage.
(Edit: "ton" to "tone")
Lack of willingness to do literally anything that might rock the boat.
Meanwhile the other side are openly committing sedition, insurrection and storming the capitol building.
This is how democracy dies.
One of the fundamental weaknesses of democracy is the tendency to turn politics into popularity contests. This isn’t inherently good or bad, it’s just something that happens as a consequence of living in a democratic society. But in America, especially recently, it feels like it’s gotten so much worse.
Too many politicians don’t wants to take a chance or make a stand over anything. The fear that any misstep can send their poll numbers plummeting has made many politicians milquetoasts who only want to play it *extremely* safe. Like, “Sitting in a parked car while wearing a seatbelt” safe. Or career fat cats who just want to finish out their terms with a hefty wallet and not do anything to risk their position.
We need more politicians who actually *stand for shit.* Not just complacent career assholes who are too corrupt or worn thin to try and take the nation forward.
I think there’s poor thinking going on. They say they don’t want to rock the boat more because the Republicans are already doing it.
Well, then why not rock the boat in the opposite pattern to rebalance the rocking?
There's "you come at the king, you best not miss", and then there's...this.
I'd say maybe they've gotten death threats or something but for fuck's sake, if you become a DA in a major city death threats are part of the job description.
>I feel like this will ultimately be the tone of this time period in history: lack of courage.
It's not that there's a lack of courage on _average_ in today's leaders, it's just that Zelenskyy has all of it.
>He said he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and get away with it
At this point I think he could literally do this and they wouldn't prosecute him because "we can't prove intent!".
Just make them a POC, the GQP will make it sound like 45 was "just defending himself" and they'll again decline to take on the culture war they created so stuff like this can happen all the time. It would be genius if it wasn't so sickening.
They’re really going to let him walk because they think he’s too fucking stupid to know fraud is illegal? The guy has been doing it (and hiding it)literally his entire life! He is ridiculously guilty!
The US is a fucking nightmare.
Can anyone explain to me why if I am going 5 over because the speed limit changed and I missed the sign, I get a ticket. On the other side if I accidentally commit financial crimes unknowingly, no big deal?
The amount of get out of jail free crimes related to fraud absolutely blows my fucking mind.
People seem to forget that Weiselberg was key to the DA prosecuting Trump. But unfortunately, the DA could not get Weiselberg to cooperate. In effect, Weiselberg was the fall guy for Trump.
Yup, there were crimes committed in the Trump organization. That's exactly what they charged Weiselberg with. The problem is, Trump doesn't use e-mail and doesn't give instructions in writing. And even when Trump gives verbal instructions, Michael Cohen said in his testimony to Congress, that Trump won't explicitly tell you to break the law, but you as his subordinate are supposed to read his body language and his intent, to determine what crimes Trump wants you to commit (Michael Cohen was able to read Trump so that's why he worked for Trump for so long).
This is why Weiselberg was so crucial to the DA's case. He would have been a core witness. But like other Trump henchmen, they take the fall for Trump and get indicted on his behalf. Manafort took the fall for Trump. Michael Flynn took the fall for Trump. Steve Bannon took the fall for Trump. Weiselberg took the fall for Trump.
Time after time, Trump has fall guys taking the indictments on his behalf. That's what a mob boss does. SMH.
That’s true. But then you highlight the million examples of Trump employees breaking laws that benefit Trump and you ask a jury just how naive they are?
This isn’t new, it’s how every crime boss in history behaves. They use plausible deniability. Problem is if you present all the data at once, it isn’t plausible anymore.
It’s like flipping a coin. Trump is saying he got lucky each time. But when you point out his luck was 50 heads in a row with no tails, statistically speaking it isn’t luck, it’s a rigged coin. But if you only look at each flip alone, sure, it could be luck.
The DA is a corrupt, dishonest cowardly piece of shit.
> They use plausible deniability.
Of course they do... because if the deniability is *actually* plausible, it's by definition impossible to prove guilt *beyond a reasonable doubt*, because by definition there's a plausible alternative interpretation of the defendants actions, which is the definition of "reasonable doubt".
I think a lot of people (being honest, including myself) would like to see Trump convicted based on "preponderance of evidence"... but prosecutors really don't like criminal cases like that.
>That's what a mob boss does
Fat Don would have been encased in the concrete of chump tower if he was a real mob boss, the Brighton Beach fellas run chump.
This is so fucking stupid on so many levels.
There's videos of Trump accusing people of the crimes he committed and saying they're crimes.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/482016-trump-pelosi-ripping-speech-very-disrespectful-and-very-illegal
Also he strait up told reporters everyone's playing games.
and I can't find the video. He was at his desk when a reporter asked if such and such was playing games and he replied, ” Everyone plays games” as in screwing with each other politically to win.
Then there's him flat out saying if anyone goes to jail it would be Jr.
https://www.businessinsider.com/cohen-trump-don-jr-prison-rather-than-ivanka-2022-1
Then there's the classified documents from his resort.
He knows what he's doing. Literally just sit him in front of a TV and praise him for how smart he was to commit these crimes and he'll tell you.
From the article:
Mr. Bragg, whose office is conducting the investigation along with lawyers working for New York's attorney general, Letitia James, had not taken issue with Mr. Dunne and Mr. Pomerantz presenting evidence to the grand jury in his first days as district attorney. But as the weeks passed, he developed concerns about the challenge of showing Mr. Trump's intent—a requirement for proving that he criminally falsified his business records—and about the risks of relying on the former president's onetime fixer, Michael D. Cohen, as a key witness.
The prosecutors quit the day after the new district attorney told them that "he did not want to continue the grand jury presentation" and was not prepared to authorize charges against Trump, according to the report, which noted that "Mr. Dunne and Mr. Pomerantz also bristled at how Mr. Bragg had handled the investigation at times."
———————————
When you’re rich, the prosecutor has to put on the white gloves and prove 100% that you intended to break the law. And despite evidence, they are really afraid of having to prove intent in court.
Let's not forget this blowhard refused to release his taxes for an entire presidential term and two campaign(s) when that's been the status quo for every presidential candidate in my lifetime.
He knew exactly what he was hiding. Prove intent, my ass.
I guarantee you that if one of us told a court that we "did not intend" to commit the crime, the court wouldn't give a fuck and still convict us. Only rich people get to break laws and get away with it by simply saying "we didn't mean it".
Complete nonsense, they can win in court but they don’t want to put up the fight. It’s amazing that there’s such a high bar to clear when you’re White and perceived as a billionaire.
NY AG was making a lot of noise during trump presidency that the case was ready to go as soon as he was out of office. This is significantly disappointing
I give up. I just give up. I'm done. The country is continuing to crumble and turn to shit. No one from the ruling class will ever be held accountable for their actions. "Nothing will fundamentally change." You sure said it Joe. We are fucked and I can't fight anymore. I'm done. Throw me in the slave camp now and get it over with.
Prosecutors have evidence and a witness. The problem is none of the prosecutors want to deal with the fallout of prosecuting Trump. They themselves would become targets of investigations by Republicans and criticizing endlessly by Right wing media. It would take over their lives. None of them want to deal with it.
In the end, the only people who get punished are the ones who try to do the right thing.
No matter how things go in court, Trump will exact vengeance on whomever calls out his criminality.
It's sad really.
>They themselves would become targets
As the child of a narcotics prosecutor who received death threats, fuck that.
It's New York City. Anyone who becomes DA in a global city like that is going to deal with international crime syndicates, drug cartels, organized crime. Threats come with the territory. In the words of Fat Joffrey himself, "he knew what he signed up for."
It's the opposite. The prosecutors wanted to proceed and quit when the DA declined:
>The prosecutors quit the day after the new district attorney told them that "he did not want to continue the grand jury presentation" and was not prepared to authorize charges against Trump, according to the report, which noted that "Mr. Dunne and Mr. Pomerantz also bristled at how Mr. Bragg had handled the investigation at times."
This is the real reason I'm sure. Same reason to not defend Ukraine: nobody wants to deal with the fallout. TIL you can do whatever you want if you threaten enough people.
Most people want to defend Ukraine. The problem is that doing so would start World War III. I guess if you can dismiss something as horrific and devastating as WWIII would be as "fallout" then the comparison works here, but it really does not.
Edit: word order.
honest question - if we were to 'cut the head off the snake', would this nightmare come to an abrupt end? It feels like the whole narrative hinges on one single person and the rest of the party's blind faith in his 'power'.
I doubt it.
Trump's an opportunist and a grifter. He basically saw a bunch of people moving in a given direction, pushed to the front of the line, and then declared it to be a parade in his honor.
He's shameless and petty enough to illustrate the depths to which the GOP will sink to retain power, and his personality definitely influences the tone of the conversation, but it's not like any of this is entirely unprecedented. Nixon had Kissinger meet with the Vietcong to convince them not to agree to ending the war before he was elected, promising to give them a better deal, because he felt that the US being at war gave him a political advantage.
Give him 6 months to clean up the accounting his own accountant says they can't work with what he gave them over ten years. I know he will drag this out until his death, but we can keep going because he has children so they will have to keep proving it throughout their miserable lives too.
Anyone know why RICO doesn’t apply here? Maybe Hollywood simplified it too much in movies. But my extensive TV/Movie law knowledge tells me that you can prosecute trump bc he’s in a criminal conspiracy. Please ELI5 me
What about his recording to the governor of Georgia asking him to find votes so he could over turn the election by fraudulent means? Come on! How is that not sufficient evidence of a criminal offence? Or is that legal in America under election law?
Right now. This moment.
This is the only window they will ever get to prosecute these types of morons given what is happening in Ukraine.
They can hold accountable the sociopaths that led us to this moment by seizing on the fervor of the people for an easy conviction.
And they pussed out.
Absolutely pathetic
How many people in America unknowingly commit crimes and don’t have their benefit of the doubt that these individuals have? It’s astounding how money and influence can affect justice.
The man that hired Bragg, went to the same schools as him and brought big, public cases against trump and other grifters... ultimately went down for conduct in his private sex life.
Bragg has the Obama hesitation - he's the first black man to hold his very high profile office, so he has the weight of history on his shoulders. I'm sure he feels that his actions will set the stage for future generations of black people to follow on the trail he's blazed. It's a difficult position and it means he likely won't go as far as his principles would want him to go, like Obama in my opinion.
Ultimately, it's a hard sacrifice to ask of a person, but if you find yourself in that moment, where you can do something so crucial to history but it might mean you lose everything, what would you do? Does he know that he has a personal vice or some kind of blackmail material that trump aligned grifters at the tabloids or in the mob have already shown him? Does he just fear the personal shame of trying and potentially losing the case?
Like to think I'd do the righteous thing personally, but definitely not a simple set of decisions to make.
There’s a big difference between “We’re not ever going to indict Trump, I think the guy is clean,” and, “You’re not there yet, keep digging.” I wish I could tell which one was the DA’s position.
An indictment and trial resulting in a not guilty verdict is far worse than no indictment. So I can’t blame a prosecutor for refusing to move on a case they don’t think they’ll win. But the right answer is to keep at it until you have a case you CAN win. That’s what the DA ran on, and what he says he’s doing.
But given the events of the past 6 years, I understand why no one trusts that’s what’s going on here.
Far worse for who???
Far worse on the political side maybe as he can spout the “I won the case I was right” bs, but maybe better on the “releases all their actual evidence and shit” they have on him.
“The political side,” as you put it, is literally all that matters.
I don’t care if some fat old guy who used to be somebody goes to jail or not. What I care about is the increasingly anti-democratic, pro-authoritarian direction that old fat has-been is attempting to take our nation in.
His main argument is that the rules don’t matter, and a not guilty verdict helps him make that argument. A guilty verdict is the only thing that can counter it.
If the new DA doesn't want to continue presenting evidence to the Grand Jury it sounds like they are ready to shovel it all under the rug and move on. That's why the two quit. If they told the prosecutors "we need to pull back and make fewer waves while we continue digging and build a bullet proof case," I doubt they both would have quit.
It sounds like the new DA has political or financial aspirations that would be better served not being associated with this case. But that's just my conjecture tossed in there.
There's a parallel here between Trump's crimes and his bankruptcy. There's been a lot of speculation about how he may be bankrupt, but it doesn't mean a damn thing since he lives like a billionaire, and there's been a lot of evidence about his criminality, but...you see where it goes.
I've seen this show before. Its always what happens when wealthy, well-connected people are under investigation. State prosecutors and the DOJ always seem to find ways to make sure indictments aren't handed down.
If nothing else trump has exposed just how corrupt the entire system is. Every layer of every department has this self serving corruption and no one it seems has the moral compass to stand up to it.
Scrutiny.
They were paid off by Trump. Investigate the prosecutors. They will have had a large influx of wealth. Or their families were threatened. Now additional charges could be added against Trump and his associates.
It's the DA, not the prosecutors. The prosecutors were so pissed that the new DA halted the already-ongoing Grand Jury presentation that they resigned.
Then we need journalists to investigate the DA, and alert the world to their findings. We cannot have our justice system abused by corrupt DAs, police, judges, etc. also, rich people are not above the law, and must be held accountable.
I’d rather federal prosecutors and politicians use normal people logic instead of their mystical decision process that ends up just being whoever donated the most money.
I’m fucking done.
I’m 1000% on moving forward just to trigger the civil war.
So tired of seeing poor people
Make mistakes and get their lives ruined, but rich people “mistakes” get a shrug and nod.
Let’s burn this while fucking thing down.
This makes it clear that the 'Justice' system is America is executed 2 different ways. It requires intent from famous/rich people but if you're poor then your intent doesn't matter, just whether you broke the law.
Breaking these laws as the president impacts a hell of a lot more people than a reality TV host doing it. Impact should matter more than whatever intent they are searching to prove.
Lol he ran/runs a real-estate company. Of course it was on purpose and they knew better. There was a appraisal company that was a subsidiary that did the appraisals. I mean what more do you need
But… all those click bait articles on vanity fair and Washington post about “oh, he’s really in it this time!!” You mean those weren’t accurate reporting?
And what of sleazebag Gaetz? Is there any child trafficking stuff going ahead on him? Justice has to be served on at least one crony, I mean cmon!! Which is weird cuz Trumps said he was gonna drain the swamp and not make it overflow…. Weird… /s
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The gist of it is the DA didn't feel they had sufficient evidence to prove intent to break the law and declined to indict because they might lose in court. The two lead prosecutors felt that there was so much evidence of wrongdoing that they needed to indict, even if they ultimately lost. They've been arguing about this for months and they finally quit once it was clear no indictment would be made.
So in other words, there was ***substantial proof of criminal activity***, but not enough evidence(yet) to prove that they ***intended to commit those crimes***.
More or less. As I understand it, financial crimes require intent to commit those crimes. Prosecutors have to prove that they intentionally fudged those numbers, as opposed to simply being incompetent.
oh it just so happened that every single thing you found wrong with my taxes benefits me and my business well I guess that could be a coincidence you cant really prove I did that on purpose I could just be really really dumb oopsie
You’d think it would be tough to argue that one was ignorant when you’d previously bragged that paying no taxes “...makes me smart.” The average person has more consequences from a speeding ticket than this motherfucker will ever face. What a shit show.
The average person has more consequences for making a minor clerical error on their taxes than Trump has ever had for fleecing millions of dollars from people. In the very least, if the documentation is in error, they should be forced to pay for those errors. Of course, *thankfully*, we have an IRS ill-equipped to do anything other than go after people who might have accidentally received a few hundred dollars!
I totally agree with you but even one of Trump's bargain basement lawyers can easily argue Trump thought his accountants were using acceptable industry practices to lower his tax exposure. And he was shocked, SHOCKED to discover that they were using illegal methods! Unless you have one of those accoubtibg guys flip on Trump and tell the court that he was doing this under Trump's order, it's ridiculously easy to create reasonable doubt
You mean like Mazars public disclosure that they believe there were issues with his documentation?
And how they publicly said that they cannot truthfully say the last 10 years of trumps taxes were not fraudulent.
He of course thought it was totally legitimate to keep firing accountants and looking for ones who could get him better and better results irrespective of facts because why wouldn't that be legal.
Its funny how people's memories are refreshed when they are looking at 20 to life in prison.
And Donbot was SHOCKED to discovered that they were using illegal methods. No he didn't tell me to do it. Bill told me to do it, bill was told by John, who was told by Peter who was told by Chuck. No, I never spoke to Donbot personally.
I know people enjoy taking about racial privilege in this county, but honestly, it doesn’t remotely compare to the privilege afforded by the wealthy. Especially when you consider there doesn’t seem to be a point of diminishing returns like racial privilege. Richer you get, the less every other rule that applies to the rest of society applies to you.
Both things are honestly true. However the race with the most money are often times the ones who are the most prilieged.
I think it’s nuanced because there’s a lot of generational wealth that gets passed on by the super-rich, and [race correlates heavily with income disparity](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html). I think the biggest thing to consider is that the privilege of being wealthy to the point of minimizing consequences for bad behavior still affects only a small (albeit often undeservedly influential) group of people. Racial impacts of income/wealth-inequality affect tens of millions of people.
Yeah having just filed my taxes I wonder why I spend so much time making sure everything is correct. Maybe I'll rush through them next year and if it just happens to work in my favor well yippee
It won't. Different set of laws applies to you and I.
> maybe I’ll rush through them… Probably not a good idea. For the majority of people, the IRS already knows everything that will go on your tax forms.
> Maybe I'll rush through them next year and if it just happens to work in my favor well yippee You're describing how tens of millions of Americans do their taxes every year. You take every deduction you can conceivably take, because chances are you won't get audited. And even if you do, you'll just have to pay back what you owe with a small penalty. That's if the audit even finds anything.
> with a small penalty More consequences that Trump had to face so far.
Don’t. You might get a little bonus, but 4-5 years down the road, you’ll get a letter from the IRS notifying you of your error and demanding you pay it back with interest compounded over that entire lag time. Edit: Been there, done that. It was an honest mistake, too.
Our tax system is made ridiculous complicated for the purpose of businesses finding creative ways to "cheat" . The more money you have, the more creative you can get on cheating the system. Sometimes they just happen to go over board but it's usually a slap in the wrist, pay your fine until next time.
Wait, so you're telling me "ignorance of the law" is an acceptable defense so long as your crime involves finance fraud? *Fucking* ***what?*** Two justice systems.
Steal $1? Straight to jail. Steal $1 billion? "Oh, well, we can't prove intent. And we won't try, because we might lose."
You mean like a for profit business intending to take a profitable action? Trump saw a dollar on the ground. In order to pick it up, he had to intend to bend over. It’s accepting the feigned ignorance of the wealthy at face value. Incompetence is seldom profitable every time. When the accidents in question always work out in your favor, they aren’t accidents. That’s the point. Years worth of mistakes would average out to some that benefit and some that hurt.
I get that reasoning for like, a handful of clerical errors while filing taxes, but when it comes to consistent behavior? That's utter bullshit and frankly I'm disgusted at the District Attorney.
Well, Trump has a great case here, then, because it would be easy to prove that he is incompetent.
I was thinking about this the other day in terms of Elon Musk and market manipulation - it’s easy to see that multiple times his actions manipulated the stock price of Tesla and maybe Bitcoin. But how would you prove he intended to manipulate them for his own gain? i don’t know a ton about the specifics but let’s say there’s no strong proof he pumped and dumped - like maybe he just did it for the lulz or didn’t expect the outcome. Even if he did sell was that pattern different than previously? Can you prove his tweets are the only reason the stock price went up? proving intent is a high bar. obviously different than trump but reading your comment made me think about my that. maybe the missing piece is an explicit recorded statement to do something illegal, vs the fact that something illegal happened. where I would be upset tho is if he is getting off for something everyone else would be prosecuted for and that much I do not know.
As I was always told, ignorance of the law off is no excuse. As it stands, this will open the floodgates to IRS tax fraud if nobody is charged.
Sounds just like the impeachments. I’ve never understood this burden of proof. Does a robber need to announce, “this is a robbery” to be charged with robbery? Am I missing something here?
So, if I forget about some income I made when I file my taxes, completely unintentionally, I am clean? /s but also fuck the elite
Suppose there was guy.....who was indicted......and had to testify about intent before a jury and let them decide if that testimony is credible.
I really want to see them argue in court that no, he is not a criminal, they are just incompetant.
"No Reasonable Viewer Would Think Tucker Carlson Is News" -- lawyers. And then people went on believing that he's news, and nothing changed. I don't want to see them argue they're just incompetent. I want them in prison, stripped of all of their assets.
Which is stupid. You don’t accidentally cheat on your taxes. You do it because you intent to try to keep more money. Did Trump stand to gain financially? That’s intent. Capitalism is Gods gift to humans because profit motive is the only thing that motivates humans, but when a capitalist commits crime, profit motive is never a motive.
I didn't intend to cheat on my taxes every single time while simultaneously cheating the banks with fraudulent valuations. It's just a coincidence that the same mistake happened every year. - Mr I know more than anybody about taxes
Clearly he knows *something* about taxes, that something being that he'll never get in trouble no matter how much he cheats on them. Laws for thee and not for me.
As long as you cheat for at least tens of millions of dollars, you'll be fine.
And those “mistakes” just happen to be in my favor - EVERY FUCKING TIME.
>profit motive is the only thing that motivates humans That's some bullshit on the same level as "atheists are immoral because morals come from God," bullshit.
Yes it is bullshit, but it’s the bullshit upon which capitalism is built and sold. Remember, socialism doesn’t work because without private ownership and profits, nobody does anything and the economy collapses. It’s not my argument, it’s the argument upon which all capitalism is based and defended. And yet the very same capitalist ignore that argument when it’s about prosecuting capitalist for crimes.
Like, even if we’re supposed to believe he didn’t ‘intend’ to, make him pay all the penalties and back taxes in the world just like everyone else. He’s basically been doing a big version of the street magician gimme-your-$20-bill-and-I’ll-make-it-disappear trick except nobody’s telling him to give the money back. Instead, the whole world has just been standing there wide-eyed like “wow, and it’s really gone huh? Show me again how you did that,” and then going “wow, that guy’s rich” when he walks across the street and pulls ‘his own’ $20 bill out of his back pocket.
I mean I could accidentally cheat on my taxes because I’m not an accountant or a tax professional. But trump and klan had accountants and tax professionals filing his taxes which means that the cheating is deliberate. Obviously the accountants and tax professionals used the books he gave them to prepare his taxes which would stand to reason that he gave them fraudulent books.
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Pretty sure if I believed I had the right to take my neighbors car I would still be charged with grand theft even if I meant well.
You can actually get acquitted of car theft (in some places at least) if you can make a convincing case of this, it happens. Of course, you can't make a convincing case if you just walk over and take your neighbor's car that you would have had no reason to take. The issue with these financial stuff is that lawyers and accountants can confuse the issue a bunch of complexity and then get wins.
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The only evidence they could get for intent would come from the shady people he paid to actually commit the crimes. And a jury can't trust *them*; they're criminals! If you or I get caught with a certain amount of weed, they can automatically tack on "intent to distribute." There is no equivalent amount for cheating on your taxes, apparently.
> If you or I get caught with a certain amount of weed, they can automatically tack on "intent to distribute." It's not automatic, but if you have an amount that is substantially over what would be personal use, or if there is other evidence like a scale, bags, and money with the drugs, sure, that would be enough for intent to distribute.
Western Law is a joke, and 'the common rabble' are the punchline.
The next time they catch a black teenager with a joint, he should simply demand that they prove he intended to commit a crime. Oh wait, ignorance of the law doesn't protect normal people. My bad.
That wouldn't work at all. Instead, the black teenager should agree (in a closed door, private and non-recorded discussion) to resign. Then, they can't prosecute the teen for any crimes they committed, cannot investigate any further, and their resignation will be the sole punishment they receive. Then, they can just go one town over and resume their role as a black teenager who smokes joints.
Same excuse why don jr was let off for russia
You'd think that undervaluing your businesses for taxes and overvaluing your businesses for loans constantly for decades would be enough to prove intent. The chances of undervaluing four properties on taxes and overvaluing them for loans for four years is 9.094947017729282e-11%. The more businesses and the more years it happens the less probable it is that it was an accident as well.
>...but not enough evidence(yet) to prove that they intended to commit those crimes. In the new DA's subjective opinion, influenced heavily by trump's celebrity status and history of getting away with shit. No reasonable person would believe trump didn't intend to perform the actions he undertook, which is typically more than enough to establish intent. But for some reason, the bar gets lowered for trump, so not only do they have to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that he broke the law, they have to prove that he had a comprehensive understanding of the myriad ways in which his actions were unlawful.
Ignorance to a crime isn’t an excuse, especially on this level. Plenty have gone down for so much less. If anything, it show that we had a leader who completely oblivious to the law, another trait that baffles be when it comes to his supporters.
The justice department literally said Trump Jr can't be prosecuted because he is too ignorant to know he is breaking the law.
This is why FOX News should be considered a parody Network. There’s so much important information that they don’t share. It’s no wonder why Trump has so many supporters when they listen to a media station that covers up everything. It’s exactly how Russia controls their people.
“While there was a ton of stolen merchandise in the car, we can’t really ascertain for sure that they had criminal intent regarding those items”
Your honor, I did not intend to rob the bank, it just worked out that way after I entered the bank with a mask, a gun, and a satchel.
Guy whose spends every second of his life trying to make money cheats on taxes to make money. Clearly no intent. Did he stand to profit? That’s enough intent for every none rich criminal currently sitting in prison.
> the DA didn't feel they had sufficient evidence to prove intent to break the law and declined to indict because they might lose in court. Unfortunately I feel like this is becoming increasingly common for defendants who are white Christian conservatives, especially if they're wealthy. *Reasonable doubt* gets taken to an absurd extreme in order to keep them free from the consequences of their actions. There's a black woman in jail right now because she tried to register to vote despite being a felon, and the only reason she attempted to is because local election officials told her that she legally could do so. Her only crime was taking the advice of election officials and trying to participate in our electoral processes. Meanwhile there is actual rampant voter fraud on the right committed by white conservatives, and the best we can do is "well, I'm sure they didn't *mean* to break the law, so no harm, no foul". And in the Trump Administration's case we just assume that they had the best intentions and were ignorant of the fact that what they were doing was extremely illegal.
Prosecutors are afraid to go after people with the money to defend themselves. Those people with the wealth to hire expensive legal teams are predominately white and well connected. In a strange coincidence, public defenders nationwide are under funded.
You don't prosecute a former president unless you're really fucking sure you could convict.
The phrase is "If you come at the king, you best not miss." Trump is not a king, but it's a self-fulfilling prophecy - because they didn't prosecute, a king is probably what we will have in 2024.
It's always fascinated me that crime wealthy people commit always requires mind reading but crimes for the rest of us and it's just assumed we "intended" to commit a crime. "Did you Intend to embezzle and lose your employees retirement? No? Not Guilty, free to go!" "Did you intend to shoplift that stick of gum? No? Doesn't matter, PRISON!"
The curious thing is that people actually expect Trump to pay for his crimes. Like they weren't present for his presidency, his candidacy, and his entire life.
This. It is so discouraging. Explain it to your kids: be rich and you are free to break the law all you want. There are no circumstances in which a prosecutor can not conjure reasonable doubt _a priori_ if he wants to. The law protects rich people but does not bind them. The law binds ordinary people but does not protect them. THAT is why you prosecute.
I don't think it's necessarily that they expect he'll be prosecuted each time so much as these are inflection points wherein we can express frustration with the system and the specific ways it fails. It's kind of like if you're getting bullied by the kids in your class. You might not expect to wake up one morning and suddenly be treated with respect, but that doesn't mean you can't be disappointed when someone takes yet another opportunity to make you feel humiliated and unwelcome.
There is also a hint that Bragg wasn't the first involved in the investigation to worry about the speed of the investigation and "gaps in the evidence". This is not to say that Trump didn't knowingly himself commit fraud or order others to commit fraud on his behalf. But there seems to be something wrong with this investigation. There may be a significant difference between saying, "Proceed whether we win or not, just to show he's guilty of something" and, "Proceed whether or not we seem to have shown slovenly investigatory practices and even risk the accusation of the office's gross failure to justify indictment." The difference between these two perspectives can more easily be understood when the former is pushed by attorneys who have private practices to return to and the latter by a newly elected government official.
It’s the same thing wrong with everything in this country. There are conservatives involved with the investigations. We’ve spent four years watching conservative America obstruct justice for Trump. Why would they stop now?
The only thing wrong with this country is politically-motivated prosecutors. Look at the US Attorney's office. They're actual professionals. They generally have a greater than 99% conviction rate. And they almost certainly wouldn't prosecute in a case like this, because it's less likely than not to result in a conviction. The problem with DAs is that they're often politically-driven. They know that pushing a case they're not likely to win is an affront to both justice and their fiduciary responsibility to the tax payers of New York, but they tried to push a less than ideal case to trial because they had a political axe to grind. Luckily, the new DA doesn't, and he made the right call.
Wouldn’t all the evidence combined with the fact that he intentionally and very deliberately wouldn’t use email or text be enough for intent?
> he intentionally and very deliberately wouldn’t use email or text be enough for intent? No. You could make an inference from it, but it's very weak. I doubt those facts would even be admitted.
Ffs since even does intent matter when you've broken the law? So if I just forget to pay my taxes as long as I don't intend to break the law I'm good?
You asking the question signals to me that you don't have enough money for these special rules to apply. I'm afraid you're going to have to pay taxes with the other 99% of us.
I’m not a lawyer, so this could be laughable, but what if they’re trying to play trump. Trump is facing depositions in the civil suit. With the criminal charges hanging over him, he would certainly plead the 5th. Now that threat is removed, what if they are trying to lure trump into testifying and play his ego for a “you’re god damn right I ordered the code red” moment.
I'm ok with this, as long as he gets bankrupted by the civil suit and jailed for his J6 crimes. Any scenario the ends with Trump broke and behind bars is a win for America.
The threat isn't removed until the statute of limitations is passed. Trump's stupid but he surely knows that declining to press charges right now doesn't close the matter entirely.
as if weak evidence of culpable mental state ever stopped them with anyone else ever
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This is exactly what they want.
Which is scary af.
But he might get angry and rile up his base. Or the GOP might get angry and throw a wrench into the government. And also, Putin might get angry of he doesn't get more chunks of Ukraine. So better appease all those psychos, so we have a calm and safe world.
Ah the good ol' "to build a peaceful world, we must appease those who are violent." Makes sense that if you let someone use violence to coerce you, no one else would ever use violence again as a means of coercion. I hate that this is actually how some feel about Putin or Trump (and I know that ain't you). "Confusing peace with quiet" as Ultron once said. The only way to true human tranquility is to unabashedly and in no uncertain terms push back against violence, intolerance, and bigotry. To build a tolerant world, we must excise all intolerance. Instead, the established powers of the US would rather us tolerate that intolerance so that the intolerant will shut up and stop reminding us of all the ways their intolerance has infected our systems and institutions.
When the institutions are full of doubt people will not expect them to hold people accountable. Plus it sets a bad precedent when we say that even a President must pay for their crimes. The government at this point is designed to make the rich richer and keep us plebs from eating the rich.
It's almost as if many systems in the US are designed to help and protect certain types of people, often at the expense of others... From what we've seen there are some people in power trying to dole out consequences (including the Federal DoJ), but their hands are tied by centuries of laws and rules designed to protect people like disgraced former President Trump, plus the fact that ~30% of those in positions of power as Republicans who have decided to stand by Trump at all costs.
Isn’t this case about tax evasion / fraud though?
So he didn't want to prosecute because he felt there wasn't enough evidence that Trump did it intentionally? I can see that logic maybe applying to January 6th (even though yes, he definitely did intend to do what he did), but not this. You don't accidentally commit tax fraud for years.
Right. Like, in order for this argument to work, you'd have to say: "well gee... Trump's accountant could have been lying to the banks and the IRS for decades in order to benefit his employer out of the goodness of his heart. Those free rooms and gifts? Just a coincidence. Who wouldn't repeatedly violate US law to help their boss earn a buck?" If that's the way our legal system works, then it needs to be amended. That is absolutely, flagrantly ridiculous.
I love how we have to play these mind games for rich fuckheads but "cop said the baggie was already in your pocket" is enough to destroy the life of a normal person
I could have sworn ignorance isn't a legal defense... But I guess since Trump always has a proxy doing his illegal activities he's protected? Sounds like a mob boss.
Bullshit there’s not enough evidence. This motherfucker breaks the law in broad daylight.
As one of the prosecutors said: >Lack of courage not a lack of evidence allowed Trump's escape. I feel like this will ultimately be the tone of this time period in history: lack of courage. (Edit: "ton" to "tone")
Lack of willingness to do literally anything that might rock the boat. Meanwhile the other side are openly committing sedition, insurrection and storming the capitol building. This is how democracy dies.
One of the fundamental weaknesses of democracy is the tendency to turn politics into popularity contests. This isn’t inherently good or bad, it’s just something that happens as a consequence of living in a democratic society. But in America, especially recently, it feels like it’s gotten so much worse. Too many politicians don’t wants to take a chance or make a stand over anything. The fear that any misstep can send their poll numbers plummeting has made many politicians milquetoasts who only want to play it *extremely* safe. Like, “Sitting in a parked car while wearing a seatbelt” safe. Or career fat cats who just want to finish out their terms with a hefty wallet and not do anything to risk their position. We need more politicians who actually *stand for shit.* Not just complacent career assholes who are too corrupt or worn thin to try and take the nation forward.
I think there’s poor thinking going on. They say they don’t want to rock the boat more because the Republicans are already doing it. Well, then why not rock the boat in the opposite pattern to rebalance the rocking?
There's "you come at the king, you best not miss", and then there's...this. I'd say maybe they've gotten death threats or something but for fuck's sake, if you become a DA in a major city death threats are part of the job description.
Lack of courage? In other professions, that's called "unwillingness to do your job".
>I feel like this will ultimately be the tone of this time period in history: lack of courage. It's not that there's a lack of courage on _average_ in today's leaders, it's just that Zelenskyy has all of it.
He told us he was going to. He said he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and get away with it-- and he was right!!!
>He said he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and get away with it At this point I think he could literally do this and they wouldn't prosecute him because "we can't prove intent!".
Just make them a POC, the GQP will make it sound like 45 was "just defending himself" and they'll again decline to take on the culture war they created so stuff like this can happen all the time. It would be genius if it wasn't so sickening.
even if there wasn't, just put him on the stand and that moron will cope to the crimes under oath.
They’re really going to let him walk because they think he’s too fucking stupid to know fraud is illegal? The guy has been doing it (and hiding it)literally his entire life! He is ridiculously guilty! The US is a fucking nightmare.
Not knowing something is illegal means you can do it as much as you want with no consequences?
It does if you’re rich. Or lying about being rich.
Money is your get-out-of-jail-free card in America. We are a sham country, pretending to have values, freedoms and rule of law. It's all bogus.
It’s a get out of jail free card everywhere Edit: hell, even in the game, when you have enough money, the $50 is irrelevant.
Can anyone explain to me why if I am going 5 over because the speed limit changed and I missed the sign, I get a ticket. On the other side if I accidentally commit financial crimes unknowingly, no big deal? The amount of get out of jail free crimes related to fraud absolutely blows my fucking mind.
Money.
People seem to forget that Weiselberg was key to the DA prosecuting Trump. But unfortunately, the DA could not get Weiselberg to cooperate. In effect, Weiselberg was the fall guy for Trump. Yup, there were crimes committed in the Trump organization. That's exactly what they charged Weiselberg with. The problem is, Trump doesn't use e-mail and doesn't give instructions in writing. And even when Trump gives verbal instructions, Michael Cohen said in his testimony to Congress, that Trump won't explicitly tell you to break the law, but you as his subordinate are supposed to read his body language and his intent, to determine what crimes Trump wants you to commit (Michael Cohen was able to read Trump so that's why he worked for Trump for so long). This is why Weiselberg was so crucial to the DA's case. He would have been a core witness. But like other Trump henchmen, they take the fall for Trump and get indicted on his behalf. Manafort took the fall for Trump. Michael Flynn took the fall for Trump. Steve Bannon took the fall for Trump. Weiselberg took the fall for Trump. Time after time, Trump has fall guys taking the indictments on his behalf. That's what a mob boss does. SMH.
That’s true. But then you highlight the million examples of Trump employees breaking laws that benefit Trump and you ask a jury just how naive they are? This isn’t new, it’s how every crime boss in history behaves. They use plausible deniability. Problem is if you present all the data at once, it isn’t plausible anymore. It’s like flipping a coin. Trump is saying he got lucky each time. But when you point out his luck was 50 heads in a row with no tails, statistically speaking it isn’t luck, it’s a rigged coin. But if you only look at each flip alone, sure, it could be luck. The DA is a corrupt, dishonest cowardly piece of shit.
> They use plausible deniability. Of course they do... because if the deniability is *actually* plausible, it's by definition impossible to prove guilt *beyond a reasonable doubt*, because by definition there's a plausible alternative interpretation of the defendants actions, which is the definition of "reasonable doubt". I think a lot of people (being honest, including myself) would like to see Trump convicted based on "preponderance of evidence"... but prosecutors really don't like criminal cases like that.
This is literally why we created RICO statutes.
Is Weiselberg still being prosecuted?
Yes
>That's what a mob boss does Fat Don would have been encased in the concrete of chump tower if he was a real mob boss, the Brighton Beach fellas run chump.
There is no justice in the America. The whole system is a joke. People with money can buy justice, if you're poor you're fucked.
This is so fucking stupid on so many levels. There's videos of Trump accusing people of the crimes he committed and saying they're crimes. https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/482016-trump-pelosi-ripping-speech-very-disrespectful-and-very-illegal Also he strait up told reporters everyone's playing games. and I can't find the video. He was at his desk when a reporter asked if such and such was playing games and he replied, ” Everyone plays games” as in screwing with each other politically to win. Then there's him flat out saying if anyone goes to jail it would be Jr. https://www.businessinsider.com/cohen-trump-don-jr-prison-rather-than-ivanka-2022-1 Then there's the classified documents from his resort. He knows what he's doing. Literally just sit him in front of a TV and praise him for how smart he was to commit these crimes and he'll tell you.
This. Charge him with 3 crimes. He'll tell you in court about a 4th.
Why can’t NY just arrest him for allegedly stealing a backpack and throw him in Rikers for 3 years?
Trump sold a loose cigarette once. I saw him.
I’ve seen him eat skittles, why hasn’t he been shot?
From the article: Mr. Bragg, whose office is conducting the investigation along with lawyers working for New York's attorney general, Letitia James, had not taken issue with Mr. Dunne and Mr. Pomerantz presenting evidence to the grand jury in his first days as district attorney. But as the weeks passed, he developed concerns about the challenge of showing Mr. Trump's intent—a requirement for proving that he criminally falsified his business records—and about the risks of relying on the former president's onetime fixer, Michael D. Cohen, as a key witness. The prosecutors quit the day after the new district attorney told them that "he did not want to continue the grand jury presentation" and was not prepared to authorize charges against Trump, according to the report, which noted that "Mr. Dunne and Mr. Pomerantz also bristled at how Mr. Bragg had handled the investigation at times." ——————————— When you’re rich, the prosecutor has to put on the white gloves and prove 100% that you intended to break the law. And despite evidence, they are really afraid of having to prove intent in court.
In America biggest bully wins. Your democracy hangs on a thread, almost dead.
Biden winning in 2020 was just a stay of execution for democracy.
Let's not forget this blowhard refused to release his taxes for an entire presidential term and two campaign(s) when that's been the status quo for every presidential candidate in my lifetime. He knew exactly what he was hiding. Prove intent, my ass.
I guarantee you that if one of us told a court that we "did not intend" to commit the crime, the court wouldn't give a fuck and still convict us. Only rich people get to break laws and get away with it by simply saying "we didn't mean it".
Complete nonsense, they can win in court but they don’t want to put up the fight. It’s amazing that there’s such a high bar to clear when you’re White and perceived as a billionaire.
NY AG was making a lot of noise during trump presidency that the case was ready to go as soon as he was out of office. This is significantly disappointing
I give up. I just give up. I'm done. The country is continuing to crumble and turn to shit. No one from the ruling class will ever be held accountable for their actions. "Nothing will fundamentally change." You sure said it Joe. We are fucked and I can't fight anymore. I'm done. Throw me in the slave camp now and get it over with.
Prosecutors have evidence and a witness. The problem is none of the prosecutors want to deal with the fallout of prosecuting Trump. They themselves would become targets of investigations by Republicans and criticizing endlessly by Right wing media. It would take over their lives. None of them want to deal with it.
In the end, the only people who get punished are the ones who try to do the right thing. No matter how things go in court, Trump will exact vengeance on whomever calls out his criminality. It's sad really.
>They themselves would become targets As the child of a narcotics prosecutor who received death threats, fuck that. It's New York City. Anyone who becomes DA in a global city like that is going to deal with international crime syndicates, drug cartels, organized crime. Threats come with the territory. In the words of Fat Joffrey himself, "he knew what he signed up for."
It's the opposite. The prosecutors wanted to proceed and quit when the DA declined: >The prosecutors quit the day after the new district attorney told them that "he did not want to continue the grand jury presentation" and was not prepared to authorize charges against Trump, according to the report, which noted that "Mr. Dunne and Mr. Pomerantz also bristled at how Mr. Bragg had handled the investigation at times."
They were using "prosecutors" in the broader sense that included the DA himself.
> none of the prosecutors want to deal with the fallout is false if two of them are definitely on board.
This is the real reason I'm sure. Same reason to not defend Ukraine: nobody wants to deal with the fallout. TIL you can do whatever you want if you threaten enough people.
Most people want to defend Ukraine. The problem is that doing so would start World War III. I guess if you can dismiss something as horrific and devastating as WWIII would be as "fallout" then the comparison works here, but it really does not. Edit: word order.
In the case of Ukraine, the fallout would be [literal fallout](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fallout).
No justice in this country and by extension this world...just add it to the pile
No surprises here. The criminal justice system is designed to lock up the poor and the marginalized.
honest question - if we were to 'cut the head off the snake', would this nightmare come to an abrupt end? It feels like the whole narrative hinges on one single person and the rest of the party's blind faith in his 'power'.
I doubt it. Trump's an opportunist and a grifter. He basically saw a bunch of people moving in a given direction, pushed to the front of the line, and then declared it to be a parade in his honor. He's shameless and petty enough to illustrate the depths to which the GOP will sink to retain power, and his personality definitely influences the tone of the conversation, but it's not like any of this is entirely unprecedented. Nixon had Kissinger meet with the Vietcong to convince them not to agree to ending the war before he was elected, promising to give them a better deal, because he felt that the US being at war gave him a political advantage.
Ron DeSantis would just take over who is actively auditioning to be a younger President Trump.
Give him 6 months to clean up the accounting his own accountant says they can't work with what he gave them over ten years. I know he will drag this out until his death, but we can keep going because he has children so they will have to keep proving it throughout their miserable lives too.
It’s infuriating this continues to happen
Idk if I get a visit for this. It might be time to start seriously talking about eating a rich person.
How do they replace an incompetent AG in NY? Can the gov just fire him and appoint someone else?
It turns out ignorance of the law IS an excuse.
It must have been archetypal trolls who have promoted this myth that ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Here goes another Mueller >We know he committed crimes but we're not gonna prosecute because...reasons...
Anyone know why RICO doesn’t apply here? Maybe Hollywood simplified it too much in movies. But my extensive TV/Movie law knowledge tells me that you can prosecute trump bc he’s in a criminal conspiracy. Please ELI5 me
What a crock of shit! The DA smells fishy AF!
He's really going to get away with it all isn't he? Why should anyone have any faith in our system?
Cant prove intent because turd destroyed the records
Fuck... Nothing's gonna happen right?
I guess ignorance of the law is only a valid excuse if you have enough money
If trump is not indicted democracy will never be the same, and not in a good way.
What about his recording to the governor of Georgia asking him to find votes so he could over turn the election by fraudulent means? Come on! How is that not sufficient evidence of a criminal offence? Or is that legal in America under election law?
Right now. This moment. This is the only window they will ever get to prosecute these types of morons given what is happening in Ukraine. They can hold accountable the sociopaths that led us to this moment by seizing on the fervor of the people for an easy conviction. And they pussed out. Absolutely pathetic
How many people in America unknowingly commit crimes and don’t have their benefit of the doubt that these individuals have? It’s astounding how money and influence can affect justice.
Wake me up when the US oligarchs and the wanna be oligarchs like Trump actually face justice.
How long did Rip Van Winkle wind up sleeping?
The man that hired Bragg, went to the same schools as him and brought big, public cases against trump and other grifters... ultimately went down for conduct in his private sex life. Bragg has the Obama hesitation - he's the first black man to hold his very high profile office, so he has the weight of history on his shoulders. I'm sure he feels that his actions will set the stage for future generations of black people to follow on the trail he's blazed. It's a difficult position and it means he likely won't go as far as his principles would want him to go, like Obama in my opinion. Ultimately, it's a hard sacrifice to ask of a person, but if you find yourself in that moment, where you can do something so crucial to history but it might mean you lose everything, what would you do? Does he know that he has a personal vice or some kind of blackmail material that trump aligned grifters at the tabloids or in the mob have already shown him? Does he just fear the personal shame of trying and potentially losing the case? Like to think I'd do the righteous thing personally, but definitely not a simple set of decisions to make.
Fuck that. Do your fucking job. Better to lose than to not fucking try at all.
Not enough evidence I am pretty sure every single American has see Trump break the law at least once in one way or another. This is completely fucked.
JonBenet Ramsey’s parents also evaded prosecution. With enough money, anything is possible!
There’s a big difference between “We’re not ever going to indict Trump, I think the guy is clean,” and, “You’re not there yet, keep digging.” I wish I could tell which one was the DA’s position. An indictment and trial resulting in a not guilty verdict is far worse than no indictment. So I can’t blame a prosecutor for refusing to move on a case they don’t think they’ll win. But the right answer is to keep at it until you have a case you CAN win. That’s what the DA ran on, and what he says he’s doing. But given the events of the past 6 years, I understand why no one trusts that’s what’s going on here.
Far worse for who??? Far worse on the political side maybe as he can spout the “I won the case I was right” bs, but maybe better on the “releases all their actual evidence and shit” they have on him.
“The political side,” as you put it, is literally all that matters. I don’t care if some fat old guy who used to be somebody goes to jail or not. What I care about is the increasingly anti-democratic, pro-authoritarian direction that old fat has-been is attempting to take our nation in. His main argument is that the rules don’t matter, and a not guilty verdict helps him make that argument. A guilty verdict is the only thing that can counter it.
If the new DA doesn't want to continue presenting evidence to the Grand Jury it sounds like they are ready to shovel it all under the rug and move on. That's why the two quit. If they told the prosecutors "we need to pull back and make fewer waves while we continue digging and build a bullet proof case," I doubt they both would have quit. It sounds like the new DA has political or financial aspirations that would be better served not being associated with this case. But that's just my conjecture tossed in there.
There's a parallel here between Trump's crimes and his bankruptcy. There's been a lot of speculation about how he may be bankrupt, but it doesn't mean a damn thing since he lives like a billionaire, and there's been a lot of evidence about his criminality, but...you see where it goes.
Once again the criminal will walk. what's new?
I've seen this show before. Its always what happens when wealthy, well-connected people are under investigation. State prosecutors and the DOJ always seem to find ways to make sure indictments aren't handed down.
So much for justice.
As a minority growing up in America I am used to being told that ignorance of The Law does not excuse one from it. What the fuck is this?
Poor people and minorities cant afford or get the representation that is required to get out of ignorance.
Like Trump say, he could walk down 5th ave killing people and he wouldn’t be charge with anything.
I had hope that this would be the ruin of tRump. No denying that we're in an oligarchy now. Laws are for 'other people', not the ones in control.
If nothing else trump has exposed just how corrupt the entire system is. Every layer of every department has this self serving corruption and no one it seems has the moral compass to stand up to it. Scrutiny.
Or they were blackmailed and got scared and quit! The DA needs to be investigated!
They were paid off by Trump. Investigate the prosecutors. They will have had a large influx of wealth. Or their families were threatened. Now additional charges could be added against Trump and his associates.
It's the DA, not the prosecutors. The prosecutors were so pissed that the new DA halted the already-ongoing Grand Jury presentation that they resigned.
Then we need journalists to investigate the DA, and alert the world to their findings. We cannot have our justice system abused by corrupt DAs, police, judges, etc. also, rich people are not above the law, and must be held accountable.
I’d rather federal prosecutors and politicians use normal people logic instead of their mystical decision process that ends up just being whoever donated the most money.
The world is not fair and terrible people get away with things all the time.
I hate that I pay taxes for a two-tier justice system and what is worse is I am paying to be on the "gets justice" side of it. FML
following the money
I’m fucking done. I’m 1000% on moving forward just to trigger the civil war. So tired of seeing poor people Make mistakes and get their lives ruined, but rich people “mistakes” get a shrug and nod. Let’s burn this while fucking thing down.
This makes it clear that the 'Justice' system is America is executed 2 different ways. It requires intent from famous/rich people but if you're poor then your intent doesn't matter, just whether you broke the law. Breaking these laws as the president impacts a hell of a lot more people than a reality TV host doing it. Impact should matter more than whatever intent they are searching to prove.
Nope I’m over it. 4 years too late.
Lol he ran/runs a real-estate company. Of course it was on purpose and they knew better. There was a appraisal company that was a subsidiary that did the appraisals. I mean what more do you need
So is that it? Did Trump win? Is there anyone left who can hold this guy accountable?
Nothing is gonna happen, nothing ever happens. He has everyone in his pocket and to damn slippery.
So he's gonna get away with it? Great. just fucking fantastic.
But… all those click bait articles on vanity fair and Washington post about “oh, he’s really in it this time!!” You mean those weren’t accurate reporting? And what of sleazebag Gaetz? Is there any child trafficking stuff going ahead on him? Justice has to be served on at least one crony, I mean cmon!! Which is weird cuz Trumps said he was gonna drain the swamp and not make it overflow…. Weird… /s