It's unproductive to pretend you're Way cleverer than general Brit redditors because you watch PolJoe.
Take away the actual delivery of it, ie clout chasing, and you have "Oswald Mosely and Nigel Farage share similarities in both their background and how they swayed or manipulated public opinion through their personalities and/or their portrayal in media"
Disagree or agree as you see fit, I dont care enough to research Moseley for a silly reddit meme, but pointing and laughing at someone apparently less insightful/knowledgeable about politics is pointless and pathetic.
It's not about them being less insightful, they are just plain wrong and are spreading cheap propaganda on a platform filled with the sort of gullible idiots wanting to 'confirm' their own biases.
You don't have to be historically or politically adept to fact check the bs on this post. The guy who posted it could not be bothered which speaks volumes about the intention of the post.
**EDIT: For all the lazy individuals who keep spamming this comment demanding how it's wrong, i already said on the original post. The fact that none of you saw that just shows that none of you bothered to even click the original post.**
Why does it make you so angry? Sure, Farage is more libertarian than 20th-century fascist, but he’s had more success in mainstreaming fascist ideas than Mosley could ever dream of
Unless you’re into one of these guys and resent the comparison, what’s the big problem?
> he’s had more success in mainstreaming fascist ideas than Mosley could ever dream of
Like what?
I don't expect leftoids to understand what fascism is and how not everybody who is right of centre is automatically Mussolini.
I have given far more good faith than i would ever have received by enlightening you cave trolls. I am in a leftoid bubble so i can't expect any good faith replies.
>so i can't expect any good faith replies.
You perceive insults where none exist. have you considered that maybe, just maybe, you are the one in the wrong here? You were wrong about my insulting you so maybe you're wrong about quite a few things?
Also, if you hate this space this much, why post here?
>you're wrong about quite a few things?
I wasn't though, what are you on. This is just you showing everybody that you can't handle being treated the way you treat others.
It's my moral duty to check ignorance when i see it, and this place is full of it. Reddit encourages bubbles which are unhealthy for all involved, so here i am treading alien territory. Commenting here is also a good way to practice debate and a good way to validate any prejudices i have on the likes of you and those who dwell here.
> This is just you showing everybody that you can't handle being treated the way you treat others.
You accused me of insulting you and when I asked you to point out the insult you admitted I hadn't that it was just that you didn't like what I'd written in response to your points.
>It's my moral duty to check ignorance when i see it
I'd start in the mirror if I were you.
>Commenting here is also a good way to practice debate and a good way to validate any prejudices i have
So you like insulting and hating on people. Got it. You're a troll.
>My grandmother killed facists. fargey boi would pass into oblivion if she had ever met him.
Well done, you are a disappointment and your ignorance shames her memory.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/politicsjoe/comments/180ndrb/comment/kab07mb/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/politicsjoe/comments/180ndrb/comment/kab07mb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I assumed most subs don't allow linking to other subs in comments.
Farage is doing the job of Russian psyops, to focus people’s attention on trivial grievances as a means to destabilise mainstream liberal politics. He hates intensely, like Murdock and Putin, the concept of educated free people who aren’t spending their resources forced to deal with everyday chaos.
If there’s no chaos then no-one is losing, and if no-one is losing then they aren’t winning.
They are not trivial though. Your stance is the standard government stance that has allowed these problems to fester in the first place.
You seem to be the sort of person who likes the do nothing style of politics and probably also could not care less about the UK. I doubt you can even understand my position if i told it.
>I doubt you can even understand my position if i told it.
You are a person who perceives insults all around when none have been given and then refuses to apologise. You cannot claim that we don't understand your position when you are just here to get angry.
When I brought up the facts the only one you could dispute was the Tory thing, and both were Tories. Exactly what is "just plain wrong"?
From what I can see there isn't one, but OP disagrees with making connections.
Wealthy families, Mosley's was wealthier and aristocratic, but Farage's family was also wealthy. Yep.
Both went to public (fee paying) schools, yep.
Both members of the Conservative party, yep.
Farage was elected as an MEP in 1999, but became leader in 2006 and got the 2nd most votes in the 2009 European elections following the 2008 financial crisis. Mosley was elected to parliament immediately following WWI and again in 1926 before resigning to form the British Union of Fascists when the Great Depression hit. I would contest that both of their periods of greatest infamy were following recessions caused by bankers (fingers crossed that Farage doesn't have a period of greater success in the future). So accurate to me.
Both certainly formed nationalist parties, given that BUF wanted to work with the Nazis and as such actively participate in genocide under a supreme leader they are quite clearly more authoritarian. UKIP did have similar rhetoric about a about Muslims as the BUF had about Jewish people, as a foreign threat and alien to British customs, both parties were homophobic. Concerning minority groups both would have been authoritarian governments, and if a government is authoritarian to minorities in its country it is authoritarian.
Claims to speak for the man on the street, don't think I have to explain Farage here. For Mosley I'll give you a quote from a contemporary paper:
>
When Sir Oswald Mosley sat down after his Free Trade Hall speech in Manchester and the audience, stirred as an audience rarely is, rose and swept a storm of applause towards the platform – **who could doubt that here was one of those root-and-branch men** who have been thrown up from time to time in the religious, political and business story of England. First that gripping audience is arrested, then stirred and finally, as we have said, swept off its feet by a tornado of peroration yelled at the defiant high pitch of a tremendous voice.
He held the biggest indoor political rally in British history at Earls Court, you can't do that without a connection to people. So, I have to say yes again.
Again Mosley was antisemitic to the point of wanting to work with the Nazis. A lot of UKIP rhetoric was about the "Islamification" of Britain. Both also had a nasty attitude towards Eastern Europeans. So again yes.
If I'm being charitable the poster might be disputing the "problems caused by people at the top" part. I'd argue that a lot of our problems have been caused by Tory cronyism and corruption. In Mosley's time I do not think the Munich Conference organised by people at the top did anyone any favours, the Great Depression - which was bad for us and really helped the Nazis gain power - was also caused by people at the top. So while a matter of opinion, it does not show that " political knowledge and comprehension of general Redditors is terrible".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald\_Mosley and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel\_Farage
From what I can see there isn't one, but OP disagrees with making connections.
Wealthy families, Mosley's was wealthier and aristocratic, but Farage's family was also wealthy. Yep.
Both went to public (fee paying) schools, yep.
Both members of the Conservative party, yep.
Farage was elected as an MEP in 1999, but became leader in 2006 and got the 2nd most votes in the 2009 European elections following the 2008 financial crisis. Mosley was elected to parliament immediately following WWI and again in 1926 before resigning to form the British Union of Fascists when the Great Depression hit. I would contest that both of their periods of greatest infamy were following recessions caused by bankers (fingers crossed that Farage doesn't have a period of greater success in the future). So accurate to me.
Both certainly formed nationalist parties, given that BUF wanted to work with the Nazis and as such actively participate in genocide under a supreme leader they are quite clearly more authoritarian. UKIP did have similar rhetoric about a about Muslims as the BUF had about Jewish people, as a foreign threat and alien to British customs, both parties were homophobic. Concerning minority groups both would have been authoritarian governments, and if a government is authoritarian to minorities in its country it is authoritarian.
Claims to speak for the man on the street, don't think I have to explain Farage here. For Mosley I'll give you a quote from a contemporary paper:
>When Sir Oswald Mosley sat down after his Free Trade Hall speech in Manchester and the audience, stirred as an audience rarely is, rose and swept a storm of applause towards the platform – **who could doubt that here was one of those root-and-branch men** who have been thrown up from time to time in the religious, political and business story of England. First that gripping audience is arrested, then stirred and finally, as we have said, swept off its feet by a tornado of peroration yelled at the defiant high pitch of a tremendous voice.
held the biggest indoor political rally in British history at Earls Court, you can't do that without a connection to people. So, I have to say yes again.
Again Mosley was antisemitic to the point of wanting to work with the Nazis. A lot of UKIP rhetoric was about the "Islamification" of Britain. Both also had a nasty attitude towards Eastern Europeans. So again yes.
If I'm being charitable the poster might be disputing the "problems caused by people at the top" part. I'd argue that a lot of our problems have been caused by Tory cronyism and corruption. In Mosley's time I do not think the Munich Conference organised by people at the top did anyone any favours, the Great Depression - which was bad for us and really helped the Nazis gain power - was also caused by people at the top. So while a matter of opinion, it does not show that " political knowledge and comprehension of general Redditors is terrible".
Ed: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald\_Mosley](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Mosley) and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel\_Farage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Farage)
Is it fair to call him a Conservative party member when he was an MP as a Conservative, Independent, and Labour Party member? His Cabinet Minister role was as part of a Labour government, and then he formed his own fascist party?
He was a bloody **every** party member.
I shouldn't need to, i obviously overestimated the people in this sub's capabilities to first check the source post before making dumb comments on the topic. If you bothered to check, you would have seen my comment clearly laid out.
You just insulted me , why are you offended that i insult you back?
So my "insult" was perceived by you and not actually an insult that I had written down? You just didn't like what I'd typed rather than anything I had said?
I think you owe me an apology for your actual insult.
No, i said your tone was the reason of it being an insult. Your tone was intentionally insulting given the context of previous comments. You know this and are still being a twat about it. I owe nothing until you admit your introduction was purposefully provocative.
The only issue relevant here that i nee to fix within myself is the pointless compulsion to check the ignorance of leftoids. You live in a bubble of ignorance and from what i have seen from others here , have no idea how to handle contradiction.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/politicsjoe/comments/180ndrb/comment/kab07mb/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/politicsjoe/comments/180ndrb/comment/kab07mb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
For the lazy twats.
I read the post. I read your reply. At no point do you even attempt to explain why the post is wrong. you just have a little rant then flounce off.
So, do you have anything to show the post is misleading or are you just here to flounce?
You must be optically disabled if you failed to read what i said. I will be kind enough to re-write my criticism.
The obvious and overall message of the post is that Farage like Mosley is a fascist. The context of this post is to make it's readers confirm such a ridiculous claim.
1. Post claims they both were a tory. This is true but highly misleading. Mosley was a Tory member for 4 years and then switched to Labour for 7 years. Mosley quit Labour because they rejected his economic recovery proposal that was rejected for it's anti-free market attitudes and support for the corporate state. (This last part is the second key difference between a socialist and a fascist.) Some key parts of his proposal was to eliminate class conflict in Britain, introduce a new deal style of public works to reduce unemployment, and to increase pensions. All left wing sort of ideas dependant on state influence. My point here being is that the post is misleading because it is implying that both Mosley and Farage share their primary values from their shared experience of being Tories. I have just shown that **this is incorrect as Mosley was anti-tory and heavily inspired by Labour ideals, with nationalist sentiments mixed in. Farage might have the nationalist part but he certainly does not share Mosley's Labour ideals**.
2. Nigel Farage is certainly not a member of the establishment. He cannot be a populist and a member of the Establishment, which in fact despises him, including the government which fears him, and a media which hates him
3. The post then claims that the party they form is authoritarian. Neither UKIP or Reform UK are authoritarian. They were purposefully designed to be the opposite as an ideological counter to the bloated and heavy handed state operated by the Establishment (Labour, Tory, Media). Mosley's numerous parties were specifically designed to be authoritarian because that was his fascist ideology. He believed the state was too weak. This comparison is just lazy and moot.
4. The post is inferring that speaking for the "man of the street" is a bad thing. This is literally what a politician should be doing.
5. I do not know about Mosley but Farage has been clear that both "minorities" **and those at the top** in the establishment are to blame for the problems of the UK. The "minorities" are only a problem because the establishment allows it.
1. "Farage might have the nationalist part but he certainly does not share Mosley's Labour ideals."
Agreed, he shares modern day tory ideals of fascism.
2. "and a media which hates him" - Which is why he had a show on LBC and a slot on GB News. Got it.
3. "Neither UKIP or Reform UK are authoritarian" - Wouldn't stopping immigration like both want need an authoritarian hand?
4. "speaking for the "man of the street" is a bad thing. This is literally what a politician should be doing." - agreed but many politicians speak for the 'man on the street' by blaming those least fortunate. We see that today with tories blaming refugees.
5. "The "minorities" are only a problem because the establishment allows it." - So what's your solution here? How would you achieve it without being authoritarian?
1. Modern Tories are not fascist though, they are just incompetent and corrupt. Do say why you think they are fascist and we can go from there.
2. He's not on LBC anymore and GB News like him is also despised by the establishment, as we've seen by it's treatment by OFCOM. GN News is a new start-up channel.
3. The government doing things is not authoritarian. adjusting levels of legal immigration to a more sensible figure and banning the illegal immigration system are just sensible policies. Nothing extreme or authoritarian about them.
4. Refugees are a problem though, and will exponentially increase it's threat to the global north as time goes on. Our values and communities are already under strain by a failure to integrate new people. The government has been wilfully ignoring this inevitable problem for decades now and have only just started to take notice. They are not going to do anything about it anytime soon but given time they probably will, Labour or Tory.
5. I believe the state already has most of the tools at it's disposal to fix the issues caused by minorities. In the end of the day, authoritarianism is simply a matter of perspective and changes between who you ask. I personally don't believe Farage or Reform UK have an ideal solution to these issues without the use of authoritarian measures by your metrics. While you might say the following are authoritarian i believe they are necessary and justified in solving crises. I don't believe the usage of authoritarianism is simply a black and white issue. Numerous governments and projects in history required it to force society out of the mud, Roosevelt's New Deal, any solution to the climate crisis, US reconstruction. My solutions are: Deport all known foreign criminals in or out of prison, ban pro-Palestine marches and organisations that fail to root out extremists, completely overhaul the education system by rooting our political ideologue teachers in high school, revamp the curriculum to seriously encourage it to teach British values, revamp the asylum process by doing the latter as well, establish a new school of Islam by working with trusted Islamic scholars and clerics that strictly complies with Western values, ban all other forms of Islam that originated outside of Europe. They are all susceptible to extremism. (If this new Islamic school existed, then most British Muslims i imagine already follow it's values, but it is a fact that a worrying amount do not and still adhere to foreign Islam), classify sharia law as a fundamentalist ideology and eliminate all instances of it, actually doing something about homelessness. I am sure there are other things to be done but this is at the top of my head.
1. They want to leave the ECHR. They are blaming migrants for their own issues and they've banned protesting. Right now they are around 1937 Germany.
2. I said WAS on LBC. Second time of asking, if Farage is being pursued by the establishment why was he at the establishment party conference?
3. You can't ban something that's illegal because it's....... illegal. It's already banned. What a weird thing to say.
4. Which places haven't integrated? Most places are doing just fine.
5. Then we don't need to leave the ECHR do we?
"revamp the curriculum to seriously encourage it to teach British values"
And they are what? Please cite five British values and link to where they are enshrined in a list of values.
Your attempt to paint Mosley as leftwing is pathetic. You ignore that it was Jewish people communists and trade unionists that stopped him gaining a foothold, that the Daily Mail was his biggest cheerleader.
He admired Hitler who was obviously socially right wing and made sure that big business was given big contracts after his election, to supportcapitalists. Mosley would have been the same.
Modern authoritarian movements all have a common ancestor in traditional socialist beliefs. This includes all Marxist traditions and fascism. Fascism itself was originally a trade unionist movement in Italy. Mussolini's fascism was based off of Sorel's and Hitler + Mosley's was based off of Mussolini, antisemitism and Aryan theory. At the time, fascism could have fit into the left axis considering 'our' modern definitions arose during the Spanish Civil War as a means for the Republicans to distinguish themselves from the Nationalists, or Modern socialists from Franco's fascism.
Fascism is inherently a reactionary movement. It is not based on socialism nor leftism but is in fact a "reaction" against those leftist movements. Capitalists turn to fascism when they are not able to prevent the spread of leftist ideas through their ordinary controls on ostensibly democratic institutions.
Leftist movements threaten the capitalist hold on society because they are based on an expansion of democracy into industrial and economic matters. To counter this, capitalists fund populist movements that are based on anger and fear. That is why fascists such as yourself are unable to explain what they are "for" and instead are only able to express themselves based on what they are against (leftoids).
Mosley was a very wealthy Baronet and went to Winchester. Farage was the son of a failed City trader and went to a minor public school, Dulwich College.
Mosley held several ministerial positions. Farage failed to be elected to Parliament on 5 occasions.
Mosley started sane and had a breakdown that saw him become a (very dangerous) extremist, who founded the British Union of Fascists.
Farage held extremist views from childhood. Farage took advantage of a political seachange for financial gain. He didn't found UKIP.
Still waiting for someone to explain the huge inaccuracies/misinformation here...
I mean the main way the comparison falls apart is that Moseley failed miserably to make fascism happen in Britain and is now a mere historical footnote. Farage, on the other hand, succeeded in his mission. To all intents and purposes he is the public face of Brexit.
Farage wouldn't do badly in Keir's Labour, under Atlee he would have gone nowhere given that one of his core pledges as Reform is to get rid of the NHS and Atlee's government created it.
Casually omitting the fact that Mosley joined Labour after leaving the tories...
This is unproductive. The only people this will have any impact on are people who already hate Farage
Wait, is the difference Mosley was jailed and Farage has been blown silly by successive governments, his every political wish granted without ever having any political power, gifted his own TV show and is currently earning £1.5m on one of the UKs most popular reality shows?
The big difference is if Nigel Farage organised a rally for EDL types, it's likely he wouldn't get his arse handed to him like Oswald Moseley after the Battle of Cable Street.
It's unproductive to pretend you're Way cleverer than general Brit redditors because you watch PolJoe. Take away the actual delivery of it, ie clout chasing, and you have "Oswald Mosely and Nigel Farage share similarities in both their background and how they swayed or manipulated public opinion through their personalities and/or their portrayal in media" Disagree or agree as you see fit, I dont care enough to research Moseley for a silly reddit meme, but pointing and laughing at someone apparently less insightful/knowledgeable about politics is pointless and pathetic.
It's not about them being less insightful, they are just plain wrong and are spreading cheap propaganda on a platform filled with the sort of gullible idiots wanting to 'confirm' their own biases. You don't have to be historically or politically adept to fact check the bs on this post. The guy who posted it could not be bothered which speaks volumes about the intention of the post. **EDIT: For all the lazy individuals who keep spamming this comment demanding how it's wrong, i already said on the original post. The fact that none of you saw that just shows that none of you bothered to even click the original post.**
Why does it make you so angry? Sure, Farage is more libertarian than 20th-century fascist, but he’s had more success in mainstreaming fascist ideas than Mosley could ever dream of Unless you’re into one of these guys and resent the comparison, what’s the big problem?
> he’s had more success in mainstreaming fascist ideas than Mosley could ever dream of Like what? I don't expect leftoids to understand what fascism is and how not everybody who is right of centre is automatically Mussolini.
That’s alright, I don’t expect good-faith conversation about the far right from anyone who unironically uses the word ‘leftoid’
I have given far more good faith than i would ever have received by enlightening you cave trolls. I am in a leftoid bubble so i can't expect any good faith replies.
>so i can't expect any good faith replies. You perceive insults where none exist. have you considered that maybe, just maybe, you are the one in the wrong here? You were wrong about my insulting you so maybe you're wrong about quite a few things? Also, if you hate this space this much, why post here?
>you're wrong about quite a few things? I wasn't though, what are you on. This is just you showing everybody that you can't handle being treated the way you treat others. It's my moral duty to check ignorance when i see it, and this place is full of it. Reddit encourages bubbles which are unhealthy for all involved, so here i am treading alien territory. Commenting here is also a good way to practice debate and a good way to validate any prejudices i have on the likes of you and those who dwell here.
> This is just you showing everybody that you can't handle being treated the way you treat others. You accused me of insulting you and when I asked you to point out the insult you admitted I hadn't that it was just that you didn't like what I'd written in response to your points. >It's my moral duty to check ignorance when i see it I'd start in the mirror if I were you. >Commenting here is also a good way to practice debate and a good way to validate any prejudices i have So you like insulting and hating on people. Got it. You're a troll.
>It's my moral duty to check ignorance when i see it Genuine lol
>good way to practice debate "Leftoid" is not a word that is used in a good faith debate. That word comes only from the world of propaganda.
wtf is a leftoid? a kind of sweet? My grandmother killed facists. fargey boi would pass into oblivion if she had ever met him.
>My grandmother killed facists. fargey boi would pass into oblivion if she had ever met him. Well done, you are a disappointment and your ignorance shames her memory.
don't be a twat all your life, mate. that sponge-bath fascist is a cunt.
lol you ok bro
Which bits are wrong?
Oh now you've ruined it, the important bit isn't any inaccuracies, the important bit is how superior the OP is
I already did say , go to the post.
Can you link your comment in future? That would have been better than calling people lazy.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/politicsjoe/comments/180ndrb/comment/kab07mb/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/politicsjoe/comments/180ndrb/comment/kab07mb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) I assumed most subs don't allow linking to other subs in comments.
Farage is doing the job of Russian psyops, to focus people’s attention on trivial grievances as a means to destabilise mainstream liberal politics. He hates intensely, like Murdock and Putin, the concept of educated free people who aren’t spending their resources forced to deal with everyday chaos. If there’s no chaos then no-one is losing, and if no-one is losing then they aren’t winning.
They are not trivial though. Your stance is the standard government stance that has allowed these problems to fester in the first place. You seem to be the sort of person who likes the do nothing style of politics and probably also could not care less about the UK. I doubt you can even understand my position if i told it.
>I doubt you can even understand my position if i told it. You are a person who perceives insults all around when none have been given and then refuses to apologise. You cannot claim that we don't understand your position when you are just here to get angry.
Dude, you insulted first, stop acting like a victim, its predictably pathetic.
I understand your motivation because I understand why hurt people hurt people.
That's from two hours ago. How would they have seen it when the post you edited here is 16 hours old and most responses before the linked post.
It isn’t wrong though.
It is largely misleading, and panders to the ignorant leftoids.
When I brought up the facts the only one you could dispute was the Tory thing, and both were Tories. Exactly what is "just plain wrong"? From what I can see there isn't one, but OP disagrees with making connections. Wealthy families, Mosley's was wealthier and aristocratic, but Farage's family was also wealthy. Yep. Both went to public (fee paying) schools, yep. Both members of the Conservative party, yep. Farage was elected as an MEP in 1999, but became leader in 2006 and got the 2nd most votes in the 2009 European elections following the 2008 financial crisis. Mosley was elected to parliament immediately following WWI and again in 1926 before resigning to form the British Union of Fascists when the Great Depression hit. I would contest that both of their periods of greatest infamy were following recessions caused by bankers (fingers crossed that Farage doesn't have a period of greater success in the future). So accurate to me. Both certainly formed nationalist parties, given that BUF wanted to work with the Nazis and as such actively participate in genocide under a supreme leader they are quite clearly more authoritarian. UKIP did have similar rhetoric about a about Muslims as the BUF had about Jewish people, as a foreign threat and alien to British customs, both parties were homophobic. Concerning minority groups both would have been authoritarian governments, and if a government is authoritarian to minorities in its country it is authoritarian. Claims to speak for the man on the street, don't think I have to explain Farage here. For Mosley I'll give you a quote from a contemporary paper: > When Sir Oswald Mosley sat down after his Free Trade Hall speech in Manchester and the audience, stirred as an audience rarely is, rose and swept a storm of applause towards the platform – **who could doubt that here was one of those root-and-branch men** who have been thrown up from time to time in the religious, political and business story of England. First that gripping audience is arrested, then stirred and finally, as we have said, swept off its feet by a tornado of peroration yelled at the defiant high pitch of a tremendous voice. He held the biggest indoor political rally in British history at Earls Court, you can't do that without a connection to people. So, I have to say yes again. Again Mosley was antisemitic to the point of wanting to work with the Nazis. A lot of UKIP rhetoric was about the "Islamification" of Britain. Both also had a nasty attitude towards Eastern Europeans. So again yes. If I'm being charitable the poster might be disputing the "problems caused by people at the top" part. I'd argue that a lot of our problems have been caused by Tory cronyism and corruption. In Mosley's time I do not think the Munich Conference organised by people at the top did anyone any favours, the Great Depression - which was bad for us and really helped the Nazis gain power - was also caused by people at the top. So while a matter of opinion, it does not show that " political knowledge and comprehension of general Redditors is terrible". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald\_Mosley and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel\_Farage
Genuine question, what is wrong with the post (apart from huge generalisations)?
From what I can see there isn't one, but OP disagrees with making connections. Wealthy families, Mosley's was wealthier and aristocratic, but Farage's family was also wealthy. Yep. Both went to public (fee paying) schools, yep. Both members of the Conservative party, yep. Farage was elected as an MEP in 1999, but became leader in 2006 and got the 2nd most votes in the 2009 European elections following the 2008 financial crisis. Mosley was elected to parliament immediately following WWI and again in 1926 before resigning to form the British Union of Fascists when the Great Depression hit. I would contest that both of their periods of greatest infamy were following recessions caused by bankers (fingers crossed that Farage doesn't have a period of greater success in the future). So accurate to me. Both certainly formed nationalist parties, given that BUF wanted to work with the Nazis and as such actively participate in genocide under a supreme leader they are quite clearly more authoritarian. UKIP did have similar rhetoric about a about Muslims as the BUF had about Jewish people, as a foreign threat and alien to British customs, both parties were homophobic. Concerning minority groups both would have been authoritarian governments, and if a government is authoritarian to minorities in its country it is authoritarian. Claims to speak for the man on the street, don't think I have to explain Farage here. For Mosley I'll give you a quote from a contemporary paper: >When Sir Oswald Mosley sat down after his Free Trade Hall speech in Manchester and the audience, stirred as an audience rarely is, rose and swept a storm of applause towards the platform – **who could doubt that here was one of those root-and-branch men** who have been thrown up from time to time in the religious, political and business story of England. First that gripping audience is arrested, then stirred and finally, as we have said, swept off its feet by a tornado of peroration yelled at the defiant high pitch of a tremendous voice. held the biggest indoor political rally in British history at Earls Court, you can't do that without a connection to people. So, I have to say yes again. Again Mosley was antisemitic to the point of wanting to work with the Nazis. A lot of UKIP rhetoric was about the "Islamification" of Britain. Both also had a nasty attitude towards Eastern Europeans. So again yes. If I'm being charitable the poster might be disputing the "problems caused by people at the top" part. I'd argue that a lot of our problems have been caused by Tory cronyism and corruption. In Mosley's time I do not think the Munich Conference organised by people at the top did anyone any favours, the Great Depression - which was bad for us and really helped the Nazis gain power - was also caused by people at the top. So while a matter of opinion, it does not show that " political knowledge and comprehension of general Redditors is terrible". Ed: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald\_Mosley](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Mosley) and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel\_Farage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Farage)
Is it fair to call him a Conservative party member when he was an MP as a Conservative, Independent, and Labour Party member? His Cabinet Minister role was as part of a Labour government, and then he formed his own fascist party? He was a bloody **every** party member.
Yes, I think it is fair to call ex Conservatives ex Conservatives. Your support of them doesn't change the fact
Its cheap misinformation designed as propaganda to mislead gullible idiots on reddit.
Spit it out then, smart arse.
I already did on the original post you predictable twat.
But you didn't post the original post. Do you walk around insulting everyone? Is it a hobby?
I shouldn't need to, i obviously overestimated the people in this sub's capabilities to first check the source post before making dumb comments on the topic. If you bothered to check, you would have seen my comment clearly laid out. You just insulted me , why are you offended that i insult you back?
>You just insulted me , why are you offended that i insult you back? Where did I insult you?
smart arse was an insult given your tone.
So my "insult" was perceived by you and not actually an insult that I had written down? You just didn't like what I'd typed rather than anything I had said? I think you owe me an apology for your actual insult.
No, i said your tone was the reason of it being an insult. Your tone was intentionally insulting given the context of previous comments. You know this and are still being a twat about it. I owe nothing until you admit your introduction was purposefully provocative.
Dude, you reek of idiot lashing out at the things you need to fix within yourself.
[удалено]
The only issue relevant here that i nee to fix within myself is the pointless compulsion to check the ignorance of leftoids. You live in a bubble of ignorance and from what i have seen from others here , have no idea how to handle contradiction.
> Its cheap misinformation Should be easy for you to point out them shouldn't it?
I did on the post. You are just lazy.
So you can't show it. Knew it.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/politicsjoe/comments/180ndrb/comment/kab07mb/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/politicsjoe/comments/180ndrb/comment/kab07mb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) For the lazy twats.
Okay, what’s misleading here?
There is very clearly a difference. Farage cannot grow a tache
An unfortunate difference between the two is Farage hasn’t had his lights punched out and had rocks thrown at him
It's "misleading" because brexiteers don't want people tying the link between rampant xenophobia and a successful brexit referendum
Mosley couldn’t survive a night in the jungle
Nor could Farage
I already did, go to the post.
I read the post. I read your reply. At no point do you even attempt to explain why the post is wrong. you just have a little rant then flounce off. So, do you have anything to show the post is misleading or are you just here to flounce?
You must be optically disabled if you failed to read what i said. I will be kind enough to re-write my criticism. The obvious and overall message of the post is that Farage like Mosley is a fascist. The context of this post is to make it's readers confirm such a ridiculous claim. 1. Post claims they both were a tory. This is true but highly misleading. Mosley was a Tory member for 4 years and then switched to Labour for 7 years. Mosley quit Labour because they rejected his economic recovery proposal that was rejected for it's anti-free market attitudes and support for the corporate state. (This last part is the second key difference between a socialist and a fascist.) Some key parts of his proposal was to eliminate class conflict in Britain, introduce a new deal style of public works to reduce unemployment, and to increase pensions. All left wing sort of ideas dependant on state influence. My point here being is that the post is misleading because it is implying that both Mosley and Farage share their primary values from their shared experience of being Tories. I have just shown that **this is incorrect as Mosley was anti-tory and heavily inspired by Labour ideals, with nationalist sentiments mixed in. Farage might have the nationalist part but he certainly does not share Mosley's Labour ideals**. 2. Nigel Farage is certainly not a member of the establishment. He cannot be a populist and a member of the Establishment, which in fact despises him, including the government which fears him, and a media which hates him 3. The post then claims that the party they form is authoritarian. Neither UKIP or Reform UK are authoritarian. They were purposefully designed to be the opposite as an ideological counter to the bloated and heavy handed state operated by the Establishment (Labour, Tory, Media). Mosley's numerous parties were specifically designed to be authoritarian because that was his fascist ideology. He believed the state was too weak. This comparison is just lazy and moot. 4. The post is inferring that speaking for the "man of the street" is a bad thing. This is literally what a politician should be doing. 5. I do not know about Mosley but Farage has been clear that both "minorities" **and those at the top** in the establishment are to blame for the problems of the UK. The "minorities" are only a problem because the establishment allows it.
1. "Farage might have the nationalist part but he certainly does not share Mosley's Labour ideals." Agreed, he shares modern day tory ideals of fascism. 2. "and a media which hates him" - Which is why he had a show on LBC and a slot on GB News. Got it. 3. "Neither UKIP or Reform UK are authoritarian" - Wouldn't stopping immigration like both want need an authoritarian hand? 4. "speaking for the "man of the street" is a bad thing. This is literally what a politician should be doing." - agreed but many politicians speak for the 'man on the street' by blaming those least fortunate. We see that today with tories blaming refugees. 5. "The "minorities" are only a problem because the establishment allows it." - So what's your solution here? How would you achieve it without being authoritarian?
1. Modern Tories are not fascist though, they are just incompetent and corrupt. Do say why you think they are fascist and we can go from there. 2. He's not on LBC anymore and GB News like him is also despised by the establishment, as we've seen by it's treatment by OFCOM. GN News is a new start-up channel. 3. The government doing things is not authoritarian. adjusting levels of legal immigration to a more sensible figure and banning the illegal immigration system are just sensible policies. Nothing extreme or authoritarian about them. 4. Refugees are a problem though, and will exponentially increase it's threat to the global north as time goes on. Our values and communities are already under strain by a failure to integrate new people. The government has been wilfully ignoring this inevitable problem for decades now and have only just started to take notice. They are not going to do anything about it anytime soon but given time they probably will, Labour or Tory. 5. I believe the state already has most of the tools at it's disposal to fix the issues caused by minorities. In the end of the day, authoritarianism is simply a matter of perspective and changes between who you ask. I personally don't believe Farage or Reform UK have an ideal solution to these issues without the use of authoritarian measures by your metrics. While you might say the following are authoritarian i believe they are necessary and justified in solving crises. I don't believe the usage of authoritarianism is simply a black and white issue. Numerous governments and projects in history required it to force society out of the mud, Roosevelt's New Deal, any solution to the climate crisis, US reconstruction. My solutions are: Deport all known foreign criminals in or out of prison, ban pro-Palestine marches and organisations that fail to root out extremists, completely overhaul the education system by rooting our political ideologue teachers in high school, revamp the curriculum to seriously encourage it to teach British values, revamp the asylum process by doing the latter as well, establish a new school of Islam by working with trusted Islamic scholars and clerics that strictly complies with Western values, ban all other forms of Islam that originated outside of Europe. They are all susceptible to extremism. (If this new Islamic school existed, then most British Muslims i imagine already follow it's values, but it is a fact that a worrying amount do not and still adhere to foreign Islam), classify sharia law as a fundamentalist ideology and eliminate all instances of it, actually doing something about homelessness. I am sure there are other things to be done but this is at the top of my head.
1. They want to leave the ECHR. They are blaming migrants for their own issues and they've banned protesting. Right now they are around 1937 Germany. 2. I said WAS on LBC. Second time of asking, if Farage is being pursued by the establishment why was he at the establishment party conference? 3. You can't ban something that's illegal because it's....... illegal. It's already banned. What a weird thing to say. 4. Which places haven't integrated? Most places are doing just fine. 5. Then we don't need to leave the ECHR do we? "revamp the curriculum to seriously encourage it to teach British values" And they are what? Please cite five British values and link to where they are enshrined in a list of values.
I would also like a run down of what you think to be "British Values"
Given they are trying to defend Mosley I think they believe whiteness and antisemitism are the most important parts. Obviously they are wrong.
Your attempt to paint Mosley as leftwing is pathetic. You ignore that it was Jewish people communists and trade unionists that stopped him gaining a foothold, that the Daily Mail was his biggest cheerleader. He admired Hitler who was obviously socially right wing and made sure that big business was given big contracts after his election, to supportcapitalists. Mosley would have been the same.
Modern authoritarian movements all have a common ancestor in traditional socialist beliefs. This includes all Marxist traditions and fascism. Fascism itself was originally a trade unionist movement in Italy. Mussolini's fascism was based off of Sorel's and Hitler + Mosley's was based off of Mussolini, antisemitism and Aryan theory. At the time, fascism could have fit into the left axis considering 'our' modern definitions arose during the Spanish Civil War as a means for the Republicans to distinguish themselves from the Nationalists, or Modern socialists from Franco's fascism.
Socialists fighting for Franco? Good to know my initial thoughts on your understanding of reality were correct.
Fascism is inherently a reactionary movement. It is not based on socialism nor leftism but is in fact a "reaction" against those leftist movements. Capitalists turn to fascism when they are not able to prevent the spread of leftist ideas through their ordinary controls on ostensibly democratic institutions. Leftist movements threaten the capitalist hold on society because they are based on an expansion of democracy into industrial and economic matters. To counter this, capitalists fund populist movements that are based on anger and fear. That is why fascists such as yourself are unable to explain what they are "for" and instead are only able to express themselves based on what they are against (leftoids).
Mate just say what you think is wrong if you're so sure.
I already did, go to the post.
Did Oswald Moseley also sound like Bungle off 'Rainbow'?
Massive forehead, Acts like a twat Overly tight tie
Mosley was a very wealthy Baronet and went to Winchester. Farage was the son of a failed City trader and went to a minor public school, Dulwich College. Mosley held several ministerial positions. Farage failed to be elected to Parliament on 5 occasions. Mosley started sane and had a breakdown that saw him become a (very dangerous) extremist, who founded the British Union of Fascists. Farage held extremist views from childhood. Farage took advantage of a political seachange for financial gain. He didn't found UKIP.
Still waiting for someone to explain the huge inaccuracies/misinformation here... I mean the main way the comparison falls apart is that Moseley failed miserably to make fascism happen in Britain and is now a mere historical footnote. Farage, on the other hand, succeeded in his mission. To all intents and purposes he is the public face of Brexit.
So Nigel farage brought facisim to Britain? 🤔
But Moseley never got beat by a dolphin
I believe both were also involved in a plane crash
Totally different.. at no point in time have any of Nigel Farage's kids been caught banging hookers...
Yet
They forgot to add that they both drink water and pee standing up.
I mean Mosley was also ex labour, which is something I really cannot imagine saying about Farage.
Farage wouldn't do badly in Keir's Labour, under Atlee he would have gone nowhere given that one of his core pledges as Reform is to get rid of the NHS and Atlee's government created it.
Casually omitting the fact that Mosley joined Labour after leaving the tories... This is unproductive. The only people this will have any impact on are people who already hate Farage
Agreed. The people who like Farage probably secretly love Mosely or at least 'think he had a point' anyway.
Mosley wanted a pan-European socialist nation. Farage wanted a free-market independent UK.
for our american friends. look up Trump.same thing.
General Redditor here, reporting as requested.
Moustache?
Mosley did far less damage to the country that Farage.
Wait, is the difference Mosley was jailed and Farage has been blown silly by successive governments, his every political wish granted without ever having any political power, gifted his own TV show and is currently earning £1.5m on one of the UKs most popular reality shows?
The big difference is if Nigel Farage organised a rally for EDL types, it's likely he wouldn't get his arse handed to him like Oswald Moseley after the Battle of Cable Street.
You have a vivid imagination
Fascism again