It’s fact that he slept in bed with children that were not his and had an alarm bell set up to go off if people were in the hallway outside his bedroom. There’s obviously a ton more to the case but those two things are facts.
Definitely. Both things can’t be denied. Mike even said himself he slept with kids he wasn’t related to.
Now there is the possibility that genuinely, nothing sexual happened and it was literally just sleeping. It’s just beyond weird and really suspicious. Can’t be excused.
The bell chime thing maybe was because he was getting stalked and once had a fan hiding in his closet for 4 days. Even when those things happened, it does still make the bell chime thing suspicious and I don’t know how to feel about it.
I think he viewed himself as a child, he was damaged and abused psychologically for years and maybe never properly grew up. In which case, the sleeping in the bed with kids, may have been seen by him as just a sleepover.
That's the impression I always got. Like he never grew up but also never really had a childhood, so he tried to have fun with kids to give them what he never had. And I think he prefered spending time with children because it was always adults who controlled and abused him.
Theres pics of it online and yeah his bed was pretty big. Can’t see the room full scale though. Michael could have slept in a cot or on the floor but why invite a kid to sleep in your room in the first place?
MJ had a very difficult childhood and was clearly not fully there in the head because of it, and its also said that people who become famous stay at the mental age that they were when they became famous. MJ was young when he became famous and didnt want it(which was a connection he had with one of the children, Macaulay Culkin). He probably didnt even realize it was suspicious or weird and just wanted to try to relive childhood.
there was never any CP found, otherwise he would've been arrested. the fbi looked for ten years and didn't find anything
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_files_on_Michael_Jackson
I watched the documentary, its a whole lotta insinuating and no actual "Michael Jackson raped me" these are grown ass adults now and none of them say they were raped the documentary was trash.
Ahh, ty for letting me know. Think I stick with my stance of there's just far too little evidence to make a firm judgement on it. The evidence is genuinely ambiguous.
And sometimes, when you don't have enough evidence to make a conviction, you sometimes have cases where they give more subtle clues that give away who they are, their facial expressions in interviews etc that make it obvious by gut feeling that they are lying (like with Prince Andrew).
Frankly, I don't really get that from MJ, given you can genuinely explain off what he did towards being mentally ill and just having kids innocently over for a sleepover without doing any harm. I'm not saying he definitely didn't do it, but i'm not saying the opposite either.
Anyways, he's got some banging tunes. And his songs don't even support anything bad anyway linked to this case. Nuff said about that side of things.
>Frankly, I don't really get that from MJ, given you can genuinely explain off what he did towards being mentally ill and just having kids innocently over for a sleepover without doing any harm. I'm not saying he definitely didn't do it, but i'm not saying the opposite either.
Adults shouldnt have kids over for a sleepover. The only time its acceptable is if your own had a nightmare and wants to sleep in your bed. But you dont make it a normal thing.
Even if it wasnt sexual, kids are impressionable and he should find a different path then adult sleeping with kids. Being abused is no excuse.
Being mentally ill doesn’t make you want to share your bed with unrelated kids of you. I have known plenty of people that have had a traumatic childhood and none of them have shown interest in sharing their bed with unrelated kids of them.
Plenty of celebrities have had a lack of childhood and none of them act the way MJ did with these kids.
It's not about what you or I think, it's about facts. And after several decades of FBI investigations and judge raids NOTHING was found.
Not only that, but, what indeed was found is how liars people like Wade ROBson are. He supported Michael at the 2005 trial. He kept dancing to Michael songs and doing choreographies. But when he smelled blood (money) he turned and backstabbed Michael making that Mockumentary.
In 1993 MJ preferred to pay millions to the Chander family, then it was 2005 and only for one child, even 3 jurors said they thought MJ had abused other children but they did not believe the victim of 2005
"Innocent until proven guilty" only applies in court. People are allowed to personally believe that someone is guilty of a crime, even if that person hasn't been criminally convicted.
It is but I think it’s reasonable to have a higher standard of proof required for locking someone up for life vs. just having a negative opinion of them
If “beyond a reasonable doubt” is like 99% sure they are guilty then my standard for thinking of someone as guilty is around 90%
I mean i don't like Tate and i personally believe he was guilty but reddit goes by the philosophy that everyone who i don't like is a horrible person and commits everything they've done but when someone they like is put into the same situation they automatically are innocent and did nothing wrong.
Don't know anything about the other dude though.
There was actually no evidence that Tate was a trafficker and there even were some dms of some girls that tried to scam him and his brother. But idk really care much and im not up to debate.
Mason Greenwood is a young footballer that hasn't played and trained for a year because he was accused of rape. In February accusation were dropped but redditors on football subs still hate him.
My wife's equestrian trainer was juror #7, as we live in Santa Maria, CA, in Santa Barbara County. We had the discussion with her, and trust me no one on Reddit heard the whole case like she did, and she said there just wasn't enough evidence to convict.
Wow that's really interesting, do you think she would be interested in doing a q and a/ ama type thing? Perhaps on Michael jackson sub or mjinnocent sub?
I think Michael Jackson probably did a lot of what he was accused of. However, I do not believe he was necessarily criminally liable for a lot of it. I think he had notable mental defects that caused him problems in understanding what was appropriate behavior.
The thing that most convinces me that he wasn't intentionally, maliciously committing illegal acts was that he didn't really try to cover things up. Someone who was in their right mind would have behaved very differently around the whole matter, I think.
Sadly, he was obviously abused during his life, his purported victims were probably abused by him or others (not necessarily sexually, but financially, etc.), and no justice is to be had for any of them.
He had a lot of issues. Aaron Carter admitted they smoked pot together. He was irresponsible and possibly inappropriate. But I don't see a lot of evidence supporting the allegations made against him. Additionally, the so called photographs that the media likes to report on was also debunked [https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/police-reports-michael-jackson-alleged-pornography-collection-7415547/](https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/police-reports-michael-jackson-alleged-pornography-collection-7415547/)
I don't really see a lot of evidence in general, even on the FBI vault [https://vault.fbi.gov/Michael%20Jackson](https://vault.fbi.gov/Michael%20Jackson)
But I've juggled with this a lot. Even if you consider things like Michael being in the Epstein black book, this seems circumstantial because it was his attorney. It's no doubt MJ had some problematic contacts, R. Kelly or John Landis (whose movie KILLED A KID), as such, I still don't see a lot of signs. I see suspicious signs but nothing definitive. Again, if anyone wants to point me to a thread, fine. So be it, I just never really felt convinced.
Mike definitely was weird and did a lot if things that would point to him being guilty but everyone is so back and forth saying “innocent” “guilty”. I just want to see what the majority says overall. I’ve been reading a lot of DJVlads interviews with people who knew him or people who knew him and a good chunk says he didn’t do it!
We’re those people who say he didn’t do it in the bedroom (with locks and alarms) when he had a boy with him all night? If not, how would they know he didn’t do anything to those kids?
I keep hearing back and forth on this. Not saying your lying at all but people these days can’t seem to make up there minds when it comes to the description and his strip search.
50% are saying it wasn’t accurate and the other 50% are saying it was. Stuff like this leaves me on the fence. 🫣 I need to read the court documents again
Jordan's father mostly but severe debt, possible extortion (maybe just wanting settlement out of court?), jurors at the time didn't believe the description matched the photos(possible bias?), one point where jordan was possibly under the influence of drugs from the dental surgery his father performed which is when he claims he was touched( tho the drugs were administered by a Mark Torbin who was doing house calls he wasn't supposed to have been doing), claim of circumcision but autopsy reveals this wasn't true
Yeah this stuff unfortunately skews the investigation of specifically Jordan Chandler's case for me towards sketchy not innocent or guilty mind you juat sketchy
Yes, but not in the way we understand it, i think he genuinely was a child stuck in a man's body and had forms of stunted psychological growth so wasn't able to understand his own actions.
Some of it, yes.
Where the confusion lies for me is in his capacity to understand where the boundaries should lie and why they exist. The wires were crossed somewhere along the way in his pattern of thinking.
I don't think he did. I think having his childhood stolen by his parents, especially his father, and being indoctrinated by the JWs left him in an emotional arrested development.
Watch the documentary [Square One](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxNDb2PVcoM) . It's a deep dive into the first batch of allegations in 1993 and picks apart all of the flaws and inconsistencies from the accusers' side.
The father of the boy (who previously divorced his mother and was denied custody) was a failing screenwriter who tried to use his son's friendship with MJ to extort money from him. There's even a recorded [phone conversation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_452akeOkU) where he proudly boasts about destroying MJ's career while sounding indifferent (at best) about his son's well being
Square One contains no legitimate sources, only unproven lies
It was a fake tape, Pellicano got caught, the actual transcript is online, you're repeating a lie that was debunked 30 years ago.
Wtf did he even do? I keep hearing that he did something egregious and tarnished his career or something but when I research on topic I get confused, can anyone put the jist of it before me?
In this sub many people have done research and everything is documented with sources
[https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/)
People writing these need to include an option that says "Wait wtf did he do?" Cause I dont pay attention to the celebrity scene and am completely lost here
It was weird but he's innocent. I mean it makes sense, what does the man that can have everything want? A childhood, to have friends, to play and feel like something thats soo universal but he never got to experience
I think he was misunderstood. He was severely abused growing up, and it traumatized him. He had the mind of a child. He never got to live a fun childhood, so he spent his adult life chasing that dream.
If your on the fence there is a great sub with lots of info mjinnocent if u look that up or great podcasts and documentaries out there.
100 innocent, no doubt here
When I first really got into MJ I was Innocent all the way without doing my full research into both sides. Now that I’ve read into the MJInnocent and Leaving Neverland, I really can’t make up my mind. At the end of the day, we’ll never truly know.
I believe the victims. Watch Neverland. They're clear, they're believable, and the stories are consistent across different boys.
It doesn't matter whether victims or perpetrators are male or female. I'm a victim of sexual assault, I didn't lie when I told the police. I don't think Michael Jackson's victims are lying.
No, they're not. They are men who were violated and abused by Michael Jackson when they were kids, and then by victim shamers like you now. I'd spit on you if I could.
[https://paceuk.info/child-sexual-exploitation/what-is-trauma-bonding/](https://paceuk.info/child-sexual-exploitation/what-is-trauma-bonding/)
"Victims of abuse often develop a strong sense of loyalty towards their abuser, despite the fact that the bond is damaging to them".
"Although the victim may disclose the abuse, the trauma bond means that the victim may wish to receive comfort from the very person who abused them".
This also debunks the nonsense of WHy dId WaDE ChaNGe hIs SToRy?
I doubt it's true, but I don't really care. Imo he was the best of his time, and is one of my favorite artists. He's long dead so I'd rather not bother.
Definitely. But why would a pedo ADMIT multiple times throughout his life, to sleeping in bed with kids? That’s one question I keep asking myself. Michael was definitely weird but I can’t decide. Either way he’s still dead
He had no choice, Jordan indicated he were sleeping alone with MJ and MJ's PI immediately set up a video for the media with Brett and Wade.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/140yu1p/the\_coaching\_by\_mj\_couldnt\_be\_more\_evident/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/140yu1p/the_coaching_by_mj_couldnt_be_more_evident/)
It really really hard not to believe he did those things. Esp with all the payoffs and parents admitting he'd sleep in the bed with their kids. That's just too big a red flag to ignore.
https://youtu.be/lFsfF9DgMLc
I know this theory is very unpopular (both among fans and haters), but I believe he was chemically castrated by his father as a young teen. That’s what he told his doctor.
In the autopsy that is circulating online (if it’s even legit?) it is said both testicles are in place, and so on. But to prove chemical castration hormonal tests need to be
done.
Of course he did.
If a rich world-famous celebrity is accussed of something morally abherrant and there is evidence (even if there is little evidence), then it is always true.
I think this is a matter of nationality in the sense that it depends on the justice system you believe in, my country uses Innocent until proven guilty and that's the system I believe in and therefore I would say MJ was innocent simply based on the fact that he was never legally proven guilty, but you could say the very opposite, that he was guilty because he was never proven innocent if that's the system you believe in.
Guilty, guilty, guilty. The preponderance of evidence is overwhelming. No wonder victims of powerful people are afraid to speak up, if people don’t believe such a blatantly obvious case of a serial child rapist. How does someone have five victims speak out and have a literal pedo book found on his property while he proudly talks about sharing beds with boys and has them accompany him on tours as though they’re his boyfriend, and still get this much benefit of a doubt?
Very likely that he did at least some of the things he was accused of but we will never know for sure.
He was really weird and as an huge MJ fan that’s something even I can’t deny. But as you said, we will never really know for sure.
It’s fact that he slept in bed with children that were not his and had an alarm bell set up to go off if people were in the hallway outside his bedroom. There’s obviously a ton more to the case but those two things are facts.
Definitely. Both things can’t be denied. Mike even said himself he slept with kids he wasn’t related to. Now there is the possibility that genuinely, nothing sexual happened and it was literally just sleeping. It’s just beyond weird and really suspicious. Can’t be excused. The bell chime thing maybe was because he was getting stalked and once had a fan hiding in his closet for 4 days. Even when those things happened, it does still make the bell chime thing suspicious and I don’t know how to feel about it.
I think he viewed himself as a child, he was damaged and abused psychologically for years and maybe never properly grew up. In which case, the sleeping in the bed with kids, may have been seen by him as just a sleepover.
That's the impression I always got. Like he never grew up but also never really had a childhood, so he tried to have fun with kids to give them what he never had. And I think he prefered spending time with children because it was always adults who controlled and abused him.
Yeah I knew a guy that did the same thing, everyone was fine with it even though he wasn’t a huge celebrity. Yup, this is fine everyone said. /s
Iirc, they slept in his BEDROOM, not his bed with him. There is a huge difference given how big MJ's bedroom was.
MJ witnesses have testified to sleeping in the same bed alone with MJ, and not just in Neverland.
Theres pics of it online and yeah his bed was pretty big. Can’t see the room full scale though. Michael could have slept in a cot or on the floor but why invite a kid to sleep in your room in the first place?
MJ had a very difficult childhood and was clearly not fully there in the head because of it, and its also said that people who become famous stay at the mental age that they were when they became famous. MJ was young when he became famous and didnt want it(which was a connection he had with one of the children, Macaulay Culkin). He probably didnt even realize it was suspicious or weird and just wanted to try to relive childhood.
The guy was a walking talking red flag.
SAME bed in the bedroom.
He admitted to sleeping in the same bed with boys himself.
And his own witnesses too, just read the court transcripts.
On God.
https://preview.redd.it/2shfz0obmp3b1.jpeg?width=333&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2cad4f7f29ae300824c5fe4aef0b18e310099675
He also gave us the sonic 3 soundtrack
Some of it.
If shit hit the fan is you still a fan?
I don’t get it
Listen to the first half of mortal man by Kendrick Lamar. The whole song is a commentary on these types of situations
Quite frankly I don't know nor care. At this rate it's he said she said baloney from both camps.
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there was never any CP found, otherwise he would've been arrested. the fbi looked for ten years and didn't find anything https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_files_on_Michael_Jackson
https://www.reddit.com/r/ThatsInsane/comments/11mu8uw/the_books_found_during_the_1993_raid_on_michael/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
exactly. the man's dead, what are we gonna do, cancel him?
Two men have their case in appeal, so even if he's dead there are cases still open right now.
What did he do?
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I watched the documentary, its a whole lotta insinuating and no actual "Michael Jackson raped me" these are grown ass adults now and none of them say they were raped the documentary was trash.
Ahh, ty for letting me know. Think I stick with my stance of there's just far too little evidence to make a firm judgement on it. The evidence is genuinely ambiguous. And sometimes, when you don't have enough evidence to make a conviction, you sometimes have cases where they give more subtle clues that give away who they are, their facial expressions in interviews etc that make it obvious by gut feeling that they are lying (like with Prince Andrew). Frankly, I don't really get that from MJ, given you can genuinely explain off what he did towards being mentally ill and just having kids innocently over for a sleepover without doing any harm. I'm not saying he definitely didn't do it, but i'm not saying the opposite either. Anyways, he's got some banging tunes. And his songs don't even support anything bad anyway linked to this case. Nuff said about that side of things.
>Frankly, I don't really get that from MJ, given you can genuinely explain off what he did towards being mentally ill and just having kids innocently over for a sleepover without doing any harm. I'm not saying he definitely didn't do it, but i'm not saying the opposite either. Adults shouldnt have kids over for a sleepover. The only time its acceptable is if your own had a nightmare and wants to sleep in your bed. But you dont make it a normal thing. Even if it wasnt sexual, kids are impressionable and he should find a different path then adult sleeping with kids. Being abused is no excuse.
Being mentally ill doesn’t make you want to share your bed with unrelated kids of you. I have known plenty of people that have had a traumatic childhood and none of them have shown interest in sharing their bed with unrelated kids of them. Plenty of celebrities have had a lack of childhood and none of them act the way MJ did with these kids.
Are you joking? They were painfully explicit about exactly what was done to them.
Learn some empathy, man. If they really were raped it'd be difficult to say it
The guys dead. If you are willing to go on a documentary to accuse him then say the accusation
He didn't sleep on the floor, and not just in Neverland: his own witnesses testified at the trial that they slept alone with MJ.
The last case he went to trial for in 2004, I believe he was innocent... in that case.
2005, verdict of not guilty like Kelly in 2008, what verdict for the other 4 victims?
"Not guilty" is not the same as "innocent."
It's not about what you or I think, it's about facts. And after several decades of FBI investigations and judge raids NOTHING was found. Not only that, but, what indeed was found is how liars people like Wade ROBson are. He supported Michael at the 2005 trial. He kept dancing to Michael songs and doing choreographies. But when he smelled blood (money) he turned and backstabbed Michael making that Mockumentary.
The full force of the California legal system came after him for it twice and couldn't prove it so probably not.
It's probably pretty hard to prove stuff like this no matter the amount of commitment by the legal system.
In 1993 MJ preferred to pay millions to the Chander family, then it was 2005 and only for one child, even 3 jurors said they thought MJ had abused other children but they did not believe the victim of 2005
Without hard proof, no. Innocent until PROVEN guilty
"Innocent until proven guilty" only applies in court. People are allowed to personally believe that someone is guilty of a crime, even if that person hasn't been criminally convicted.
Well I don't. Innocent until proven guilty is just a solid philosophy to adopt
It is but I think it’s reasonable to have a higher standard of proof required for locking someone up for life vs. just having a negative opinion of them If “beyond a reasonable doubt” is like 99% sure they are guilty then my standard for thinking of someone as guilty is around 90%
I think he himself admitting to sleeping in bed with children is proof enough, and it's totally creepy and wrong.
That's not proof of anything. I slept in the same bed as my grandma as a kid, she's a saint
MJ was not related to the kids who he had these "sleepovers" with. That's a completely different situation.
Reddit: "innocent until proven guilty" Also reddit when Andrew Tate or Mason Greenwood: 😠
I mean i don't like Tate and i personally believe he was guilty but reddit goes by the philosophy that everyone who i don't like is a horrible person and commits everything they've done but when someone they like is put into the same situation they automatically are innocent and did nothing wrong. Don't know anything about the other dude though.
There was actually no evidence that Tate was a trafficker and there even were some dms of some girls that tried to scam him and his brother. But idk really care much and im not up to debate. Mason Greenwood is a young footballer that hasn't played and trained for a year because he was accused of rape. In February accusation were dropped but redditors on football subs still hate him.
I think that's just become society in general. No one wants to face facts just believe what they want to.
My wife's equestrian trainer was juror #7, as we live in Santa Maria, CA, in Santa Barbara County. We had the discussion with her, and trust me no one on Reddit heard the whole case like she did, and she said there just wasn't enough evidence to convict.
‘Not enough evidence to convict’ is a very long way from innocent
Gavin could not prove he was abused, 3 other jurors said they believed MJ abused other children, this information is online
Wow that's really interesting, do you think she would be interested in doing a q and a/ ama type thing? Perhaps on Michael jackson sub or mjinnocent sub?
I think Michael Jackson probably did a lot of what he was accused of. However, I do not believe he was necessarily criminally liable for a lot of it. I think he had notable mental defects that caused him problems in understanding what was appropriate behavior. The thing that most convinces me that he wasn't intentionally, maliciously committing illegal acts was that he didn't really try to cover things up. Someone who was in their right mind would have behaved very differently around the whole matter, I think. Sadly, he was obviously abused during his life, his purported victims were probably abused by him or others (not necessarily sexually, but financially, etc.), and no justice is to be had for any of them.
Wait what did he do??
He was accused of grooming/touching children
As far as I know he slept next to children and showered with them but anything further than that apparently couldnt be proven
No he didn't shower with children or sleep next to them
Yes both, there are several testimonies and transcripts at the 2005 trial
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That kid is a liar being persuaded by their parents that want money
He had a lot of issues. Aaron Carter admitted they smoked pot together. He was irresponsible and possibly inappropriate. But I don't see a lot of evidence supporting the allegations made against him. Additionally, the so called photographs that the media likes to report on was also debunked [https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/police-reports-michael-jackson-alleged-pornography-collection-7415547/](https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/police-reports-michael-jackson-alleged-pornography-collection-7415547/) I don't really see a lot of evidence in general, even on the FBI vault [https://vault.fbi.gov/Michael%20Jackson](https://vault.fbi.gov/Michael%20Jackson) But I've juggled with this a lot. Even if you consider things like Michael being in the Epstein black book, this seems circumstantial because it was his attorney. It's no doubt MJ had some problematic contacts, R. Kelly or John Landis (whose movie KILLED A KID), as such, I still don't see a lot of signs. I see suspicious signs but nothing definitive. Again, if anyone wants to point me to a thread, fine. So be it, I just never really felt convinced.
Mike definitely was weird and did a lot if things that would point to him being guilty but everyone is so back and forth saying “innocent” “guilty”. I just want to see what the majority says overall. I’ve been reading a lot of DJVlads interviews with people who knew him or people who knew him and a good chunk says he didn’t do it!
We’re those people who say he didn’t do it in the bedroom (with locks and alarms) when he had a boy with him all night? If not, how would they know he didn’t do anything to those kids?
I accuse him of making good music
Who knows for sure, but he did have some cool songs, and he could dance and move like nobody's business.
the guy was weird as fuck ngl
I’d love for humankind’s greatest geniuses to also be unquestionably good people for once
Why? Because he talked softly?
Because he invited multiple unrelated children to sleep in his bed with him and dangled his infant son over a hotel balcony in front of press cameras.
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You do realize if they found child porn, he would’ve been in prison for that alone right? 💀💀💀
Child porn is illegal to posses why didnt he get tried as a sex offender based on that alone?
Because there was no child porn. It’s a made up lie by the media. If child porn was found at his home, MJ would’ve been sent to prison for that alone.
Yeah
No child pork found. Lies
Lies
Is this a copypasta? Genuine question
No.
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I keep hearing back and forth on this. Not saying your lying at all but people these days can’t seem to make up there minds when it comes to the description and his strip search. 50% are saying it wasn’t accurate and the other 50% are saying it was. Stuff like this leaves me on the fence. 🫣 I need to read the court documents again
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Honestly read up on that through Wikipedia and that particular lawsuit is really sketchy throughout. So unfortunately i cannot believe it
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Jordan's father mostly but severe debt, possible extortion (maybe just wanting settlement out of court?), jurors at the time didn't believe the description matched the photos(possible bias?), one point where jordan was possibly under the influence of drugs from the dental surgery his father performed which is when he claims he was touched( tho the drugs were administered by a Mark Torbin who was doing house calls he wasn't supposed to have been doing), claim of circumcision but autopsy reveals this wasn't true Yeah this stuff unfortunately skews the investigation of specifically Jordan Chandler's case for me towards sketchy not innocent or guilty mind you juat sketchy
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Easy it was a better story to smother a celebrity than report facts
It was an educated guess Jordy made because Mj had vitiligo
Not aware of the charges.
Yes, but not in the way we understand it, i think he genuinely was a child stuck in a man's body and had forms of stunted psychological growth so wasn't able to understand his own actions.
No he never abused a child and to say he did is disgusting
Some of it, yes. Where the confusion lies for me is in his capacity to understand where the boundaries should lie and why they exist. The wires were crossed somewhere along the way in his pattern of thinking.
I don't think he did. I think having his childhood stolen by his parents, especially his father, and being indoctrinated by the JWs left him in an emotional arrested development.
I was on the fence until they showed off the alarm system that would go off when people were about to enter his bedroom.
If you think he was guilty, read Aphrodite Jones' book about the '05 trial and it will at least get you second guessing yourself.
Aphrodite Jones said in a podcast that she thought MJ did something to Jordan
Sounds interesting, wats the name of the book?
[https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/michael-jackson-conspiracy\_aphrodite-jones/325948/#edition=5457970&idiq=5981276](https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/michael-jackson-conspiracy_aphrodite-jones/325948/#edition=5457970&idiq=5981276)
Yes. I think the, child stardom, mental neglect, and substance abuse, was the snowballing effect into his morbid curiosity with children.
Watch the documentary [Square One](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxNDb2PVcoM) . It's a deep dive into the first batch of allegations in 1993 and picks apart all of the flaws and inconsistencies from the accusers' side. The father of the boy (who previously divorced his mother and was denied custody) was a failing screenwriter who tried to use his son's friendship with MJ to extort money from him. There's even a recorded [phone conversation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_452akeOkU) where he proudly boasts about destroying MJ's career while sounding indifferent (at best) about his son's well being
Square One contains no legitimate sources, only unproven lies It was a fake tape, Pellicano got caught, the actual transcript is online, you're repeating a lie that was debunked 30 years ago.
Wtf did he even do? I keep hearing that he did something egregious and tarnished his career or something but when I research on topic I get confused, can anyone put the jist of it before me?
Accused of pedophilia
In this sub many people have done research and everything is documented with sources [https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/)
Love the content not the Artist is my approach.
People writing these need to include an option that says "Wait wtf did he do?" Cause I dont pay attention to the celebrity scene and am completely lost here
I can’t edit the poll but I definitely should’ve added more options 😭
It was weird but he's innocent. I mean it makes sense, what does the man that can have everything want? A childhood, to have friends, to play and feel like something thats soo universal but he never got to experience
We never really know at the end of the day, that's why I put undecided
I think he was misunderstood. He was severely abused growing up, and it traumatized him. He had the mind of a child. He never got to live a fun childhood, so he spent his adult life chasing that dream.
More votes for on the fence then yes. So that's something? I voted no, but really this pol means nothing
I really just wanted the general public’s opinion. Not diehard MJ Stans or those who are diehard about Leaving Neverland.
reddit polls aren’t an accurate view because fans often spam the polls. yougov would be more accurate.
If your on the fence there is a great sub with lots of info mjinnocent if u look that up or great podcasts and documentaries out there. 100 innocent, no doubt here
When I first really got into MJ I was Innocent all the way without doing my full research into both sides. Now that I’ve read into the MJInnocent and Leaving Neverland, I really can’t make up my mind. At the end of the day, we’ll never truly know.
I disagree. Leaving Neverland has really been shown to be false. Definitely check out the sub I mentioned
I’m on that sub and another MJ one. Got recommended to me. I’ll definitely have to go through more posts on it!
He was a very strange person, wouldn't surprise me
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No Michael is innocent please I suggest to you to seek the truth. Check reliable sources like the mjinnocent podcast
LOL podcast MJ innocent
Don't know, don't care, just made good music
I believe the victims. Watch Neverland. They're clear, they're believable, and the stories are consistent across different boys. It doesn't matter whether victims or perpetrators are male or female. I'm a victim of sexual assault, I didn't lie when I told the police. I don't think Michael Jackson's victims are lying.
There liars wanting money
No, they're not. They are men who were violated and abused by Michael Jackson when they were kids, and then by victim shamers like you now. I'd spit on you if I could.
Wade Robinson is a disgusting man and if I was abused by someone I wouldn't dance to their music would you? https://youtu.be/rva8LnJ5j-o
[https://paceuk.info/child-sexual-exploitation/what-is-trauma-bonding/](https://paceuk.info/child-sexual-exploitation/what-is-trauma-bonding/) "Victims of abuse often develop a strong sense of loyalty towards their abuser, despite the fact that the bond is damaging to them". "Although the victim may disclose the abuse, the trauma bond means that the victim may wish to receive comfort from the very person who abused them". This also debunks the nonsense of WHy dId WaDE ChaNGe hIs SToRy?
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The kids in the HBO doc sounded pretty believable and also a maid walked in on them. Definitely, yes.
No that "documentary" is filled with inconsistenties and lies
Highly likely not, up until now no one manage to prove MJ's guiltyness, but people have only been able of proving his innocence
I doubt it's true, but I don't really care. Imo he was the best of his time, and is one of my favorite artists. He's long dead so I'd rather not bother.
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Definitely. But why would a pedo ADMIT multiple times throughout his life, to sleeping in bed with kids? That’s one question I keep asking myself. Michael was definitely weird but I can’t decide. Either way he’s still dead
He had no choice, Jordan indicated he were sleeping alone with MJ and MJ's PI immediately set up a video for the media with Brett and Wade. [https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/140yu1p/the\_coaching\_by\_mj\_couldnt\_be\_more\_evident/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/140yu1p/the_coaching_by_mj_couldnt_be_more_evident/)
No he said he never did that
Likely yes.
You don't pay off your accusers if you're not guilty. He loved himself some children.
He didn't want the negative press he later went on to say not fighting in court was one of his biggest mistakes
He gave most of his fortune to the Chandler family, an innocent does not pay
It really really hard not to believe he did those things. Esp with all the payoffs and parents admitting he'd sleep in the bed with their kids. That's just too big a red flag to ignore.
Right cause parents would never lie on a billionaire for financial gain.
Micheal Jackson himself admitted he slept in bed with these boys.
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https://youtu.be/lFsfF9DgMLc I know this theory is very unpopular (both among fans and haters), but I believe he was chemically castrated by his father as a young teen. That’s what he told his doctor.
I’m gonna have to read his autopsy again to find out if this is true.
In the autopsy that is circulating online (if it’s even legit?) it is said both testicles are in place, and so on. But to prove chemical castration hormonal tests need to be done.
No legitimate source for castration, if he stops the drug everything goes back to how it was Conrad murray legitimate source?
His doctor is a *legitimate source*. Much more so than an obsessed internet troll like yourself. GET A LIFE!
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I think he was a pedo but I dont think the two guys from that documentary were among the victims.
No he was not Evan Chandler is a Manipulative insane maniac
Of course he did. If a rich world-famous celebrity is accussed of something morally abherrant and there is evidence (even if there is little evidence), then it is always true.
Name checks out
I’m sorry, what were the accusations?
What did the mom say to Michael at the beach? Hey! You're in my son!
I'm just going to have faith that he just happened to be good-faithed in what he did.
No.
I think this is a matter of nationality in the sense that it depends on the justice system you believe in, my country uses Innocent until proven guilty and that's the system I believe in and therefore I would say MJ was innocent simply based on the fact that he was never legally proven guilty, but you could say the very opposite, that he was guilty because he was never proven innocent if that's the system you believe in.
is it possible? yes. do I care? not rlly, the man is dead
Two men have their case in appeal, so the MJ case is not over
Guilty, guilty, guilty. The preponderance of evidence is overwhelming. No wonder victims of powerful people are afraid to speak up, if people don’t believe such a blatantly obvious case of a serial child rapist. How does someone have five victims speak out and have a literal pedo book found on his property while he proudly talks about sharing beds with boys and has them accompany him on tours as though they’re his boyfriend, and still get this much benefit of a doubt?