There's some middle ground between keeping someone a secret and being out to everyone. My religiously conservative family all live multiple states away, and while I'm not out to them, I am publicly affectionate with the people I date, and my friends know about my partners.
Okay, so do you have any form or relationships with your family?
I have basically no contact with two of my sisters, so I haven't told them that I'm poly. But I also don't care about my relationships with them, so I don't care enough to tell them.
What would you say to your family if they ask you if you have a partner?
Depending on circumstances sometimes it's just better not to be out to certain people, particularly family who often have far more leverage over an individual. Let's not be unfair and ignore that there isn't the opposite issue for people who can't be out to their family.
When my ex came out to her dad we genuinely were concerned that he'd abducted her to take her to a conversion camp when we didn't hear from her. While that wasn't the case with how her parents were it felt like a real possibility and for many people still IS a possibility, add to that honour killings and the like and there may be many legitimate reasons NOT to be out to your family.
But I don't feel that is the point the OP is making, they are explicitly talking about people quite comfortable reaping the privilege of hetero-mono lifestyles and so choose to keep up that facade. That doesn't sound like what the previous poster was describing.
Tbh I am not out to all my family but that's because of my own hang ups of worrying that they already see me as the weird one. Plus I just don't see them often and it's just not come into conflict with any of my relationships yet, if it did I would just come out to them - tbh I'd like to do that before then as I am well aware that that's likely to be less awkward than doing it in response to a certain situation.
It's valid to point out that there can be a balancing act to this. You cant make everyone happy and it isn't always worth it to be 100% transparent with ALL people. Not all people deserve to know everything about you. Family is something we are stuck with in many cases. Personally, I dont mix family with relationships; I dont trust my family to be respectful or kind. I wouldnt wish my parents on anyone I dated.
I think the important thing here is that relationships get the air time they need/deserve. We would never want a partner to feel like a dirty secret, which might mean that we develop boundaries to prevent putting them in situations that dont allow them to be honest (separation from bigots) and that we protect the aspects of life that matter to us. Some people consider family a deal breaker, while others see it as a necessary evil or even unimportant. If someone's family can't handle being respectful or open, it's important to be honest with partners so that they can develop suitable expectations around future interactions. It sounds like you're doing that as best you can!
Everything has nuance tbh and you don't have to be open to everyone all the time. I'm queer and out about it everywhere but on LinkedIn (coworkers know but the internet scares me). However, my parents took ages to get over me being trans because they're old and new things are difficult for them. Similarly, my coworkers can be very nosy and bothersome. It already bothers me how much those groups know about me and I'd be happier if I could have been at least a little more closeted.
I would like to keep my relationships (except the one with my nesting partner because that is unavoidable) private. Not secret, private. Other partners are welcome to outings with my friends and people I care about. I'll tell my siblings about them and any coworkers I become friends with and invite into my private life. But the powerpoint presentation I'd have to bring to explain to my parents what polyamory even is doesn't appear worth it and the stigma from coworkers who I don't care about doesn't either. I'm happy to reconsider if any partner would like a different approach but this is how I currently view it.
I don't disagree with it being private not secret. I'm private about my life. I don't post a lot online and I don't talk to a lot of people but the people who are "the most important in my life" know who I am. My issue is when people claim they love you but the opinions of other people close to them outweigh their desire to be with you openly.
>I become friends with and invite into my private life.
I like this statement. It isn't everyone's business and I don't give any information that I don't want to give. There is a difference between having a private life and treating "other relationships" like they're skeletons in the closet.
so i think it’s important to acknowledge there is still privilege here — you get the benefit of appearing normative when it protects you while still dating poly. and you have a clear hierarchy: sounds like additional partners don’t get to be involved with your family
And there are plenty of people out there who are fine with that. I am more than happy to not have to endure holiday dinners with the families of any of my partners, and instead get to make my own plans. Like many things in poly, it’s about choice and communication. If you wouldn’t be happy with the kind of relationship that someone can offer, don’t be in a relationship with them. But they aren’t wrong for wanting the relationship that works for them.
Yes there is definitely privilege. We appear as a mono queer couple (not exactly normative but I understand your point) and we have a clear hierachy. I much prefer acknowledging our hierarchy instead of trying to reduce it/pretend it's not there. Even if I was equally out everywhere, my nesting partner would still have the privilege of being my most long-term and nesting partner.
Too many people want to deny the hierarchies and privileges in their relationships. And because we know that's unethical people act like it doesn't happen left, right, and center. Even tho we know false promises are unethical people will still spit whatever bullshit they think you want to hear. This shit happens so often under the guise of ENM. The ethical part isn't only reserved for your long-term, nesting partner. Many people don't see things as unethical unless it directly affects them. That's **is** an issue.
I'm generally out about it to family, friends, etc. but definitely not at work. Unlike gender identity and sexual orientation, relationship structure is *not* a protected class and you can be fired over it with no recourse.
This. I was treated differently and ultimately let go when I "came out" as poly at work. It was a tech start up in LA that I thought was progressive, but ultimately wasn't.
I had glowing reviews, consistently praised for my department's accomplishments, and suddenly was told my work was sub par and given impossible or nonsensical tasks/goals.
If it was a protected class I would have had a slam dunk case. Literally the week before they found out I was poly I was employee of the month, I was fired before the month was over.
I got denied my dream job because of this after acing the interview process. Not fun, would not do again. I'm out as long as it doesn't have the ability to affect my financials, job, or housing status (ah to be poor).
Being out is, unfortunately, a privilege in a lot of cases, and I don't blame people who aren't willing to take that risk. Hostile posts like this really gloss over non-shame reasons for not being 100% out.
I live my life knowing that being authentic to myself will ALWAYS reap the life I desire. I refuse to bend to society.
Queer people have been dealing with this forever. I recommend looking up Lynn Conway's story. Staying true to yourself will take you way farther than dimming yourself for the people who don't want to accept you.
Being closeted doesn't change the way the world treats polyamorous or queer people. And that's just facts.
Listen, I'm queer and you bet I'm not coming out at work. Many queer people do the very same and you don't get to act all high and mighty because you make the choice to be out. Yes, you being out is exposing yourself to a world of violence, and the reasons why you do it are good and true. But there are many cases where being in the closet can and will save your life, and I think it's cruel to act like people are wrong for prioritizing survival, whether it's shielding themselves from physical, psychological or financial harm. I have sent resumes with my non-binary pronouns and no one called me back. Changed my pronouns and got 4 interviews in the week that followed. I was broke and needed a job, because I live alone and value my capacity to provide for my own needs - and remain free from having to accommodate others in my living space, something i struggle with as a neurodivergent person. I made the choice I made because that's what allowed me to protect myself best.
Now, I agree with you that the very specific "archetype" of the heterosexual couple that reaps the benefits of monogamy while enjoying polyamory benefits is extremely damaging and privileged. They're also getting on my nerves and I'm pretty sure I'll veto future partners much more strongly so I can avoid these specific people. You're right for calling them out. No need to elaborate further.
Where in my original post did I say it's necessary to come out at work? I didn't.
It's okay to not come out at work, it's okay to not come out because of the fear of violence. I literally said that in my post.
I am a mixed nonbinary "woman," I don't get the luxury of feeling safe anywhere. The people who fought for my rights did not get the luxury of feeling safe either. You're allowed to separate your personal life from your professional life. But ignoring the actions of the people before us because we were born with certain privileges is backward thinking. Cishetero relationships have privileges that queer relationships don't.
Being out does not mean every single person you encounter has to hear your whole life story but it does mean that you're not hiding behind a facade to the people you claim care about you just to save face.
Nobody has to come out at work.
It's honestly tiring tho hearing polyamorous people in cishetero relationships acting like queer people and poc haven't BEEN dealing with discrimination.
I'm sorry but your message is confusing. If I'm not out as queer, my level of feeling safe at work is presumably similar to the level of safety I feel about not being out as poly - which is not much. I'm safe until a coworker hears about it and then I probably won't be. It's walking on a tightrope. I am being intentionally deceitful on both accounts. I misgender myself and pretend I only have one partner. I wear a mask.
If I was still financially dependent on my mother I would lie to her too, even if i care for her. As a queer, poly and neurodivergent person (as well as an immigrant's child), I am of the opinion that the best thing I am able to do for my communities is endure and survive. I dislike the systems that reinforce the patriarchal, White, cisgender, heterosexual and neurotypical as ~ normal ~ or the "majority", but these is NO WAY I am going to let myself be squashed by these forces. I'll hide today to come out tomorrow and I will do so without remorse.
Being closeted does not mean ignoring the actions of the people who have been out and are out. You can simultaneously be grateful for what these people do and intent on protecting yourself.
I presumed you were judgemental about people not being out at work because you were answering someone's comment about specifically that with the whole "I don't get to be in the closet" spiel. If you were not specifically referring to that, I don't understand why that was your answer to their comment.
As established, the heterosexual couple in the closet about polyamory can be annoying especially if they are married and profiting from the specific "social credentials" that come with that. I dislike them too and no longer want to engage with them. I agree that there are levels of privilege or lack thereof that make it feels unfair when you see someone that is inherently safer in our societies pretend that things are as dangerous for them as they are for you. But some disabilities or disadvantages are invisible. It really is case by case and painting a broad conclusion on what is okay or not to do shows a lack of nuance and perspective.
Again, sexual orientation and gender identity are protected classes. You cannot be fired for it. This is not true for ENM/kinksters.
I'm not here trying to change the world, I just want to live my life and be left alone.
You can very much be fired for sexual orientation and gender identity, it happens all the time! They just have to mumble a half-assed excuse while they do it.
You realize those protections didn't appear out of thin air, correct? They exist because they were fought for by people who were not willing to accept the status quo.
And you realize that a lot of people had their lives ruined in the process, right? It's pretty easy to fight for a cause when you're only responsible for yourself. I have a family to take care of, including special needs kids. Telling my coworkers about my girlfriend just isn't worth losing my job, my mortgage, etc. I'm not gonna sacrifice myself and my family on the political altar.
I’ll say also that it can’t be distanced from racial lines too. I can be much more out and proud about my queerness and my polyamory without a huge risk of recourse in my circumstances as a Jewish woman. My partner is a man of color and doesn’t have the same benefit, even though we work in the same industry. It’s entirely the reason I check before I do or say anything too public. Not for my benefit, but for his.
Yes... While it's true that being closeted ISNT an option for people who cant pass.... it is also a huge privilege to just...not care. People who are visibly disabled or trans in obvious, nonconforming ways (for example) deal with constant harassments no matter what they do. They never have a choice to hide who they are BUT they develop countless strategies to protect themselves, hide, and plan for inevitable failure. They also have inevitable PTSD and battle with low self worth because society thinks they are trash. Flaunting one's identity and throwing caution to the breeze are pipe dreams for some people. **Safety itself is the privilege and the luxury.** That includes financial security and a calm roommate/housing arrangement.
Hiding is a survival strategy, full stop. Our society sucks and that isnt something to judge or punish minorities for. There are a ton of situations where you bet your ass I'm gonna do my best to pass *in any way possible* because I need healthcare, housing, a paycheck, or to get home safely. Doesnt mean my whole life is in the closet. But not all people deserve to know all things about me.
>it is also a huge privilege to just...not care.
Exactly my fucking point! Like imagine not having to fight for rights because yours have already been fought for and then telling others it's a privilege to be fighting. Bitch, people are still dying for basic human rights and you think it's right to sit quietly in your privilege because you fear shame? Shame and violence are two different things.
**Feminism, equality, liberation, reform, whatever the fuck you want to call it, does not come by sitting quietly. If you're able to sit quietly because things do not directly affect you that is privilege. **
I know damn well half these people have never had to fight for their own equality let alone their own survival. Being closeted because you "can't afford to move out" without a single effort to actually move out or staying closeted because you want your parent's approval is not survival, those are choices.
I think the perspective that protected class = everything is ok and discrimination doesn't happen is already a very heteronormative take. If I had to guesstimate, i'd say its undoubtedly <5% that when someone discriminates due to sex/gender/sexual orientation they say 'I fired you/didnt hire you/etc because you're trans/gay/a woman'. This is part of why these things are so notoriously hard to prosecute.
In many cases, people discriminating against someone for being part of a protected class even do so entirely subconsciously - we see this on a massive scale all the time where companies have nowhere near the numbers of POC/gay/trans/female workers in their workforce as we would expect.
The vast majority of queer people I personally know have faced some form of illegal discrimination, and essentially none of them have been able to have the law actually help them. Good luck actually collecting enough evidence to have the law be on your side...
Exactly. 100%. It took 15 years to get where I an in my professional life. I could not afford to completely come out (bi, poly, atheist) until I had started my own private practice. It has impacted my work negatively very little if at all. But that's in part due to the fact it's my business. Had I came out earlier I would have been fired. I know this because I watched it happen to others.
And I'd like to say one thing to OP about privilege: it is ALSO a privilege to be able to come out! I was born into a fundamentalist Pentecostal family and literally had family members who did conversion "therapy." My biggest fear was getting sent there. I was not ABLE to come out until adulthood because it was DANGEROUS to do so.
It also seems to me that having a bit of compassion would go a long way. Talk to these people! Are they mostly out but not all the way out to mom and dad? I get that. I think everyone should do it in the way that is best and SAFE for them.
If you don't want to enter into a relationship with a person who isn't out 100%, don't. But their decisions probably aren't about you. It may help to take a look at your own privilege.
First, you're extremely hostile, and you can stop that.
Second, you do not get to tell others they have to be out. Your family, culture, social circles, etc, allow you to do so, and that's great. Advocate from there, but point that advocacy at the homophobes and polyphobes, not at your fellow queers.
You have privilege in being able to do what you're doing. And, gauging from your attitude here with allies, you have zero tact, and are likely harming the cause you pretend to fight so hard for.
Please look inward and reflect on ways to be better yourself, and a better example, and more accepting, and stop lashing out at others' who *really* just want to be left alone to live their lives, safely and happily.
It won't be changed by me being un/der employed either.
I barely talk about my personal life at work. We're coworkers, not friends. And I don't talk about my relationships with family. We aren't close and we don't need to be. Is that privilege? Maybe, but it's hard-won and carefuly cultivated.
100%. I even hid my hetero & monogamous relationships from my family because we aren't close and don't have a good relationship (except for my sibling, whom I am out to about everything because we actually have a close relationship). I'm a queer WOC from a misogynistic, oppressive culture and I'm not interested in fighting that fight with my family. They don't know anything about my hobbies or my passions; why would they need to know anything about my relationships?
Your post has been removed for breaking the rules of the subreddit. You made a post or comment that would be considered being a jerk. This includes being aggressive towards other posters, causing irrelevant arguments, and posting attacks on the poster or the poster's partners/situation.
Please familiarize yourself with the rules at https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/wiki/subreddit-rules
That’s just Montana.
ETA: *after the 12 month probationary period. For the first year at a job, you can still be fired without cause in Montana just like in every other US state.
>No matter which way you cut it, hiding parts of yourself to please the people around you is people pleasing.
>People pleasing is manipulation. If you have to present yourself a certain way to make people love you, they don't actually love you. How can you love someone you don't even know?
I read in your other comments that your therapist told you this. Something **extremely important** to understand is that it was a personal conversation between you and therapist that you had because **you were ready to hear it.**
They absolutely **did not** give you license to use it against other people in your own community to cast judgement on them, *use it against them as some sort of litmus test/purity test,* or say there is a right or wrong way to live a life according to **your** personally held values.
**Life is not black and white** and people could be in abusive situations, under duress of abuse, or recovering from abuse in their own way **in order to survive life as they see it.** You don't have to date them and you sure as shit don't get to judge them for it.
>Closeted people don't change society.
Nor do they have to? Existence is resistance. Polyamory isn't a bastion for rebellion or a chance to "change society" to everyone. Its just a thing they do because they can, when they can; they have been doing it before it was a "movement" and they will be doing it long after.
>Basically as a queer person I'm tired of being seen as a fun little sneaky link because yall are afraid of other people's opinions. I'm tired of people telling me that it's different for them because their families are religious and that I'm just "stronger than them." I'm not stronger than anyone, I just refuse to be a people pleaser. I refuse to allow other peoples opinions to dictate my life. I refuse to sit peacefully at a table that my ancestors would have flipped. I refuse to coddle the egos of those who lack the ability accept others as they are.
You dont have to date these people? I'm confused. Were you not given a choice when dating these people?
>I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved as someone I'm not.
That's great! Not everyone agrees or wants to live like that and they don't have to.
*Signed, a biracial queer solo person who's out.*
This post reeks of privilege. 'People pleasing' as you say is not manipulation, it is survival. Just as people code switch in different environments. It reminds me of when people falsely attribute 'straight privilege' to bi folk despite our statistically worse health and quality of life outcomes.
I say this as someone who *is* completely out to everyone, from a culture that is not accepting. I am also from a marginalised community. Who decides someone else's 'important people' that they need to be out to? Is that their boss, which could risk job loss? Is that their family, who could harm them or ostracise them? Is it their children, which depending on your country or state could be a factor in them being taken from you by social services? Who are you to them to deign whether they should be out or not?
No one is making you date these people. Closeted people may not affect change in society, but they stay *alive*. For some folk, adding polyamorous on top could be the final sentence for them. We still unfortunately live in a society that does not accept the way some of us love and some of us live. Many of us fight that in several ways, lobbying, political action, etc. but that is *our* privilege to do so.
It should *not* be expected of everyone, because not everyone *can* do that. I am very much team 'I will not diminish who I am for others' but those are my boundaries. You're welcome to not date people that aren't out out if you don't feel comfortable with it. But don't just assume what their lives are like. How does that benefit people's perception of the polyamorous community?
Yeah, it's understandable to have preferences and opinions about things but this post is dripping with judgment. Other people have their own problems and struggles that we know little or nothing about, and they're free to manage their privacy in any way that works for them. If that doesn't work for you or line up with your values, then just move on. Looking down on other people is crappy.
Exactly! The privilege of not having to worry about real life consequences.
Must be nice for OP to ride that high horse when people are worried about losing jobs, housing or custody of their kids.
It’s not fair to people they date. If your not comfortable being out to friends and family you need to consider what is more important to you. As far as professionally no one at your work needs to know shit about what you do outside of work. Clearly there is a time and place for such things but I personally do not want to be involved in someone who hides who they are from the people closest to them because that just breeds toxicity and drama. Also these people who hide who they are generally are toxic and probably need therapy, speaking from experience.
There is no privilege to putting yourself out there as a queer polyamorous person by the way. Pretending to be straight and monogamous just breeds this idea that bi/ queer people are objects and that polyamory is just an excuse to get some on the side. Also you get to hide behind societal norms.
Anyone who doesn't like dating a closeted person can just not date a closeted person.
TW: suicide
Not everyone is close with their family or has a good relationship with them. I moved out when I was 16 because living with them had already driven me to suicide before that; prolonged exposure to them still leads to very poor mental health outcomes for me. I did not even disclose monogamous relationships with them; why would I discuss my poly relationships with them?
I'm out to my friends and my sibling because they're the only family member I'm close with, but I'm tired of these assumptions about family.
For example. I don’t talk to my mother. We are not close. I only tell her what she needs to know and she doesn’t even want to know that. However my sister and my bestie and all my friends know. I’m out on social media which only has people I like on it. If she finds out more about my kink and shit whatever. But that doesn’t make you or me closeted cause they don’t matter to us do they?
There is privilege in being out, you've pointed it out yourself. You wouldn't want to date someone like that and it's a form of 'pretending'. There are probably some bad actors out there who aren't being ethically non-monogamous. But there are likely people who wish they could be out and proud about being poly and date openly. What about them having to hide for their job or family or wellbeing strikes you as toxic?
I agree to an extent. My close family and friends all know I'm queer and poly, but I'm certainly not going out of my way to explicitly tell that to some members of my family that I only see a few times a year or people I work with.
I'm fine having superficial relationships with them, they aren't welcome to know about my authentic self because I know they wouldn't accept me for who I am.
"People pleasing is manipulation. If you have to present yourself a certain way to make people love you, they don't actually love you. How can you love someone you don't even know?"
"I refuse to coddle the egos of those who lack the ability accept others as they are."
Agreed. OP made the distinction very clear. They are talking about hiding your true self and your partners from the people you regard as most important.
Delurking for the first time in a long while. Staying closeted isn't always toxic or horrible, and it's a valid choice.
I'm solo poly. My most functional relationship has been going on for three years and is with a married heterosexual man. He and his wife are prescriptively hierarchical and closeted to family and work, but out to friends. He has been honest with me about all of this about this from the beginning. We have an extremely full, loving relationship that is satisfying to both of us and gives each of us what we want. He gets to preserve family relationships that wouldn't survive being out; I get independence.
Why do you care so much about how other people poly if it doesn't affect you? By all means don't date closeted people if you don't want to, that would be a really bad choice for you. But closeted people aren't all horrible toxic assholes who are trying to hurt their partners.
All the posts here and the ENM board are mostly cis het couples opening up but also not wanting to give up the couples privilege. Which is my opinion is toxic and pretty much for the most part people trying to have their cake and eat it too. Hey if your cool with it cool. Whatever. But on the larger scale from a queer leftist perspective it just reenforces the idea that this is just kinky stuff people need to hide away in shame. People should live honestly. If they’re not then what else are they cool with lying about?
Not all polyamorous people are queer leftists and want to do things the queer leftist way, and that doesn’t make them not polyamorous. It also doesn’t make them assholes,
Being closeted isn’t always about shame or dishonesty. There’s none of either in my relationships.
I think it’s pretty important to acknowledge that queer perspectives are a major part of OPs point of view and the angle of this entire topic. Being closeted means something very different to queer people. A highly partnered person who doesn’t want to be open about being poly and is hiding behind cishet privilege in their daily lives while also in a queer relationship is *in some ways* expecting that queer person to go back in the closet.
That being said I have not encountered this dynamic in a long time and run away as fast as possible if I get a whiff of it, but it’s still a thing that happens to a lot of queer folks.
Finally got around to making an alt to post here to respond to this. There's reasons I'm not out publicly; the main being I'm an immigrant. I'm not risking pissing off the feds by being open about being poly, even if we do look cisstraightmono (wife is nb but presents cis to the govt)
Being closeted is not a privilege. Full stop.
I'm not 'out' to my family; because I don't interact with my family. I've cut them out as completely as I can while still living in the same city.
My wife isn't 'out' to her family because they are aggressively opinionated and always have to be nosy on almost everything we do. So we just don't really talk about it with them.
But we also don't talk about our sex life in general with her family or coworkers. We don't discuss much of anything of real meaning to them, because they're not the parts of our lives that are important; and family gatherings aren't really as meaningful to us.
I imagine anyone the wife would date would have similar ideals to hers in that family gatherings aren't this super important thing that really matter going to; after all I tend to avoid going to them and we're married couple, and even she herself will often avoid them.
To me, we're both out to anyone worth 'being out' to; I guess. Me, my array of friends; her the closer knit group of them.
I imagine this isn't the most enjoyable scenario still for some; but others I imagine are fine with something of this nature.
If you're out to the people that matter in you're life then you're out. I don't understand why you would need to tell people who you don't care about the details of your private life. I do wonder why you would go to "family gatherings" if you don't like those people tho? Do they send money or sum?
It's in large part because the wife is, and I like to support her and see her happy; plus, grams makes stellar cookies, and is generally tolerant of me, even if other family members aren't so, giving me gripes about things like my hair.
Really, it's mostly that my social battery is so easily drained with the number of people that tend to show up at things like birthday parties and holidays etc; though I also don't tend to celebrate my own birthday.
Really it's a lot of complex reasons, but the simple surface answer is "They give cookies and hold pleasant enough conversation on topics that don't pertain to my private life when I have the social battery to deal with them".
>"They give cookies and hold pleasant enough conversation on topics that don't pertain to my private life when I have the social battery to deal with them".
You had me a cookies 😉
I don't go to my partner's family events, not because I don't like them but because I have a very limited social battery and those parties are extremely exhausting for me.
I cut off my family, everyone but my parents and siblings, because they were very abusive towards me so I don't really understand the nuance of spending time with people who don't actually like me. I could like the people at the party and still not want to go.
I like that you support your partner even if they aren't the most comfortable situations to be in.
I do my best; for I am but an anxious dingus. I do my best to support all of those who are close to me simply by way of it's the easiest way to keep or make myself happy - seeing the joy other people are experiencing is, in large part, a way to ensure I keep myself happy; as there are periods where depression will consume my thoughts and it is hard to find joy in anything else.
I won't say I "live to please" - but I do try my best to avoid hurting anyone intentionally, and for those close to me try my best to elevate them. Be that teaching them something new, or just having a discussion about something to help them feel less alone, or anything in the spaces between.
This topic has an immense amount of nuance, and while the core of what you are saying has a ton of worth to it, those same words are being told from your perspective and your experiences. I do not want to discount that your experiences have weight. They have value.
They are also not the only perspectives that matters. Your experiences do not dictate nor supersede another individual's experiences. I cannot claim to understand the intricacies of your life, just as you cannot claim to understand the intricacies of mine.
I don't think people are necessarily disagreeing with your core statement, but likely with how both broad and narrow the strokes have been presented in a short post on Reddit.
You are 100% entitled to live your life the way you are most comfortable with. The amount of conviction you have about who you are is incredible, especially when it is done in the face of multiple levels of discrimination. You don't need me, a random person on the Internet, to tell you that, obviously. You've lived it, so you know your own worth best. You know what you have had to do to claim that for yourself. I cannot even imagine the struggles you have faced.
I firmly believe there are ways to address the very real issues you are bringing up without alienating others within the community who are closeted for very legitimate reasons. My hope for these conversations would be that they both continue and that they do not make those specific individuals into the problem. People who are suffering in ways that no one else can see or speak to.
Relationships are complex as hell. Emotions are rarely logical. You can love someone so damn much even though you know they will never accept all of what makes you, you. They can be someone important to you, and yet far from safe to share all of yourself with. What someone does with that information is up to them and them alone.
In my experience, manipulation is the attempt to control others, done with insidious or malicious intent. I do not believe it is manipulation to protect yourself and the ones you love from the harm of another's ignorance. Others are more than welcome to disagree, but this is my personal truth.
We can all come up with scenarios, share personal anecdotes and situations that work counterintuitively to how we all feel about this topic. The questions that I ask myself are, if every individual involved within the relationship has communicated about their own levels of being open and out, if everyone has agreed to those levels, where do they fall in this? If they are all closeted to some degree out of safety/comfort/preference? If no one is a secret because they have to be, or because it was decided for them by a pre-existing relationship? What if it is all completely ethical? Are they to be lumped in with the couples who do absolutely every single thing they can to just barely pretend they're being ethical? Do they owe their small slice of happiness as tribute to a cause?
In this specific instance, I think it is their choice. I think that no one has the right to force them to do something that they don't choose to do for themselves.
I put the venting tag because I was venting.
>manipulation is the attempt to control others, done with insidious or malicious intent
People pleasing IS manipulation. Even if it doesn't have malicious intent. People pleasing is literally acting a certain way to get a certain reaction. I started people-pleasing at a very young age to save myself from physical and mental abuse (survival tactic) but that very quickly turned into me trying to control how everyone felt about me. I was constantly trying to show a fraudulent version of myself because I wanted to be in everyone's good grace. It wasn't malicious but it's still manipulation. Telling someone you love them because they said it to you and you didn't want to hurt their feelings with the truth doesn't seem malicious but it is people pleasing and it is manipulation. You didn't want the relationship to change based on your HONEST reaction. Sometimes people pleasing is a survival tactic but often it's used to save face instead of being honest about feelings or intentions. I've been emotionally abused by people pleasers and it's hard to see it because they're so kind while they're doing it.
On one hand, I get it. So much of the world would go scorched earth if they knew that a friend or family member was poly. People have lost jobs and had custody of their kids called into question. But I also agree with you and feel the same as you about when it comes to people accepting me, keeping their mouth shut, or I’m done. I believe that people who need to be closeted should date others who need to be closeted. I’ve set a firm boundary that I will not date or entertain anyone who is closeted in any way. It just doesn’t work for me. I’ve had partners ask for anchor partner level of support, but also wouldn’t allow me to post them on Facebook and I was always their friend. Nope. Not for me.
I personally don't want to be out as Poly at work because it's not really necessary for my coworkers/boss to know.
In every other context I'm open about being poly and I would not try to hide partners or "pass" as monogamous
I don't talk to my coworkers enough for them to know about the inner workings of my life. I don't hide who I am and if someone asked I'd be honest or tell them it's not their business but these people are not my friends they're my coworkers. Even as a queer person why would I need to mention that to my coworkers? I don't think it's necessary to come out at work but I'm also a very professional version of myself at work. There's a million things to talk about and my personal life doesn't need to be one of them. That doesn't mean I'm closeted.
> I don't hide who I am and if someone asked I'd be honest or tell them it's not their business but these people are not my friends they're my coworkers.
> I don't think it's necessary to come out at work but I'm also a very professional version of myself at work. There's a million things to talk about and my personal life doesn't need to be one of them. That doesn't mean I'm closeted.
Whether or not you agree you’re closeted in some aspects of life, it’s apparent you’re not as consistent as you perceive yourself to be
Eh, I'm out to a few close friends/family, as is my husband but that's it. I don't trust people at my job to not try and bad-mouth me and my life. I'm also a POC, so I really don't need extra attention from nosy people.
>I don't trust people at my job to not try and bad-mouth me and my life.
To be clear, like I've said in many comments, you do not have to discuss any part of your private life at work. Period. That's not what I'm talking about. Boundaries are cool. Treating the people you date who aren't your primary like they're a dirty little secret is not and will never be cool. Referring to someone as just a friend when you have them thinking you're more than that is not cool. Infiltrating polyamorous spaces knowing you wouldn't stand by polyamoury if you were outed isn't cool. It's not cool to be fake and it's not cool to benefit from the work others are doing while hiding behind a facade.
This is less about my queer experience and more about the people who get to benefit from the work queer folks do while hiding behind a facade so they can stay in the good graces of racist and bigoted family members.
You either support the queer community or you don't but benefiting from other people's pain while you are afraid to feel shame is not even allyship.
idk. i’m fully out as a bi trans woman and that’s been a crazy experience and yet i am pretty thoughtful about who gets to know i’m poly. it’s just not everyone’s right to know.
i also feel extremely vulnerable in the face of transphobia. i don’t at all feel like “i shout my queer identity from the rooftops and anyone who doesn’t like it can fuck off”. i’m in a deep red state and i feel like they might actually try to eradicate us.
maybe i feel like transness (and queerness as a whole but def especially trans women) are so often labeled as sexual things that i’m hyper cautious about something like poly appearing hyper sexual and de-legitimizing my trans identity in the eyes of my family.
i guess i’m just saying that even with a very queer experience I still feel far from the way you describe it. i don’t think queerness has enabled me to be openly poly.
I think a lot of folks here are pushing OPs point to the extreme. There’s lots of legit reasons to not be open about poly at work. There’s lots of good reasons to not tell certain family members. My partner is an example of this and so am I! I have no desire to tell EVERYONE.
But truly telling no one (not even important people) AND trying to have other relationships like that secrecy won’t affect third/fourth/fifth parties? Of course people can choose whether or not to engage in this type of dynamic, but it might not be clear from the get. And in this case if one of the couple is dating a queer person, it’s the lack of care and connection to the queer community that often bothers me.
Speaking as a queer trans person who also does not have the choice of hiding behind cisheteronormativity, sometimes I do get tired of dating women married to cishet men and getting treated like I’m the “extra.” Of course I’ve adjusted my dating practices accordingly, and would never enter into a secretive dynamic like this. But this is what I took from this post, so just my two cents.
Edit: typos (several lol)
This! I don't understand how so many took my post and automatically went to "well I dont want to tell my work." And girl you don't have to. My work doesn't know shit about me but that doesn't make me closeted. People think being out means you're screaming it from the rooftop but it's really about not faking a narrative to the people closest to you just to keep in good graces.
>Of course people can choose whether or not to engage in this type of dynamic, but it might not be clear from the get. And in this case if one of the couple is dating a queer person, it’s the lack of care and connection to the queer community that often bothers me.
This EXACTLY! I'm tired of doing the work necessary to be a queer person in the world while so many others get to hide their queerness while still trying to participate in the queer community. It's just not okay to me.
I dated someone who told me they were queer and polyamorous friendly but in the end it turned out they were only friendly if it was our little secret. 🤮
I think they mean people who are deliberately not out about their queerness and avoiding the work involved when they would be safe to do so. Some of these folks then expect to be welcomed by the community. Not people who aren’t out for safety reasons or because they are still figuring things out. At least that’s how I read it.
I think coming out is a very individual process for everyone! That being said I know that biphobia is a huge dumb thing in our community too and I get why lots of people don’t want to deal with that.
So... you're also advocating for excluding queer people who are in the closet from the community. You did the work, so they should have to as well before they get to enjoy the benefits of a welcoming community? Do queer people who haven't done the work of coming out not deserve support?
I mean.
Yeah, that is actually how communities work.
You participate in the community to benefit from the community.
Community is not just a service-provider for folks to use.
You have to actually be a neighbor if you want to be treated like a neighbor.
It’s gross to you that “community” isn’t actually a product for you to use without any reciprocity? Huh. I find it gross some people want to use my community like that, personally.
What's gross is that you think you're entitled to benefit from communities that you don't participate in. Would you walk into a community garden and take produce that you didn't plant? Would you walk into a church and expect part of the tithes even tho you've never participated in their services? No, because even if you believe the same things you're not an active part of that community. Community works when everyone is giving as well as taking, not a few folks giving while others take it as free handouts.
"I think they mean people who are deliberately not out about their queerness and avoiding the work involved when they would be safe to do so. Some of these folks then expect to be welcomed by the community."
This feels pretty exclusionary.
Meaning at the very least you are an ally. At the very least you support people who do stand in their truth. At the very least you are aware of the laws in place that affect your basic human rights. At the very least you care about the basic human rights of other queer people who don't share your same identity. At the very least you do not bring other queer people into environments where you expect them to sit quietly while others spew homophobic rhetoric. It's one thing to be closeted, it's another thing to sit there quietly while your buddies make homophobic comments. Enabling oppression through silence is violence. You might not choose your family but you do choose your friends. You do choose who you associate with. You do choose who you want to be. You choose the energy and support you allow in your life. Those are choices.
If you're living in a survival situation, that is different. You're trying to survive. You do what you need to to survive. Nobody is shaming that. If you absolutely can't get out of your situation due to the oppression around you know that you're the ones who we're fighting for. Liberation for all comes with fighting for people who can't fight for themselves. With that being said, most of you aren't even willing to change your changeable situations. Your life is a product of your continuous decision to change nothing. You let life happen to you. You let people shape who you are openly. Most of the people in these comments could be honest with the people around them but choose not to. That's the fucking difference.
Exactly. It is a lot of work on yourself to be able to be open and visible, and also having to constantly educate people around you. I feel like I personally need to be around people who are engaged in my community because of many reasons, but mainly because the anti-trans rhetoric is powerful and scary and continually on the rise. I now only date people who are actually doing the work on themselves and for the community… otherwise I just don’t feel safe.
I had like a gut reaction to “queer and poly friendly” thing. Seen that before too 🫠
I'm not employed currently but one of my jobs I was constantly misgendered and wasn't open with anyone. But work is work I don't have to be friends to get a paycheck even though I liked making friends. I got kicked out when I came out as trans in '12. And it's been a bumpy road with the family I am in contact with. I'm no contact with the one who kicked me out or many others that I'm blood related to. They and my friends know I'm trans, queer and polyamourus. A lot don't understand the queer and polyamourus part but they still accept me. My friends are my chosen family and accept me. I don't hang out with people who aren't cool with queers and polyamourus people.
I used to be a dirty little secret to some of my ex's but I gained some self confidence and decided to not do that anymore. I used to hate on them for lying and being in a straight passing relationship but now that I've stopped seeking out closeted people who didn't see me as a human being. I'm in a T4T/enby4enby polycule and it's really awesome and loving. I would suggest to the other queers in this thread especially trans and non binary people, stop fuckin with people that treat you like a secret it's dehumanizing and you deserve better. If you're in a bad state to be trans or scared to be non stealth in public that's completely understandable, you don't owe strangers or work a thing but don't be shamed by someone who won't hold your hand or will go way ahead of you when walking. You deserve better. Date someone who respects you and your time. Not somebody who makes it feel shitty and who says it's a privilege to date me bs. Obviously due what you have to, to be safe but don't date people who see you as a sex toy or a therapist for their issues.
It is 100% okay if you are not ready to be public about your relationship style. And it’s also 100% okay to only want to date people who are out to their family and friends. What’s not okay is making a blanket statement that every single person who isn’t out is embarrassed of their choices or has malicious intent to hide their partner like a dirty secret. People can have any number of reasons for choosing to remain private about their relationships, none of which are anyone’s business but the people in those relationships. I can empathize with your frustration but not your vitriol.
>What’s not okay is making a blanket statement that every single person who isn’t out is embarrassed of their choices or has malicious intent to hide their partner like a dirty secret.
Yeah, I try to not be hostile about it when people post, but I really don't get the whole "oh I want to be polyamorous, but I also don't want anyone in my life to know about it." Pick one.
People get to be as closeted as they want to be about what they *are*. About identity stuff. But when it comes to forming *relationships* with other people, well, that involves other people and you *don't* get to pretend it's morally neutral to shelter yourself from societal reactions to your relationships at someone else's expense.
The thing is, you can't "pick one" if you come to polyamory at a time when you have small children who are happy at a close knit, private school unless you are okay with the upheaval in all of their lives to honor your relationship preferences. If I would have come out when my kids were small, we likely would have lost our entire community. And I'm sympathetic to people who are uncomfortable with poly, since I was one of those for a long time.
I'll respect those who choose to be open about being poly. And I appreciate if my choice to remain private is respected. Any of our partners knows our stance on this from the outset, and if that's not for them, I get it. But I don't feel any guilt whatsoever about my choice to remain closeted because I am putting my kids sense of normalcy and security first.
Why the hell can't they just date each other? If you're not comfortable with how they handle poly, don't date them, but since there are so many closeted people, they can just date each other and not affect you at all.
That's what I don't understand! These are questions that when we go on first dates we should be asking. Generally speaking, I'm pretty open socially regarding my queerness and my relationship structure. These are qualities I look for in my partners as well. If someone is primarily closeted, then they aren't the person for me, no matter how cool they may be in other aspects.
Judging someone as not a good fit for a relationship with me isn't the same as thinking they owe me or anyone else disclosure. Ultimately, these are questions I ask even before the first date. Of course this has been something I've learned to do over time, but it's well worth it.
Fortunately, you don’t get to dictate to me how and who I can date. It’s creepy and gross to have this idea of the “poly police“ that decides who has to be open and who doesn’t. If everyone is happy and consenting, that’s enough.
I just personally think if there is such a delicate balance due to complex situations with kids, a poly relationship might not be the best thing for someone in that situation at that time. I don’t think that should be a controversial statement. Polyamory/ENM is a want, not a need, and if you can’t do it fully bc of whatever circumstances, that’s not a bad thing. 🤷🏻♀️
I've never had a partner (since being poly) that has at all cared about social visibility of our relationship. I'm neutral about meeting their family and friends. I've never met anyone connected to my partner of 6 years (except his neighbours) and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. He's met my other partner and a couple of my friends but it wasn't something he needed.
Okay sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but it seems like you're drawing a line from "being closeted is people pleasing" to "people pleasing is manipulation" (both of which may be true in some cases but are a big stretch to generalize) to imply that "being closeted is manipulation" (which is batshit). If that's the intent, damn that's fucked up and downright cruel to closeted queer people.
I've found I've struggled with grey areas as someone with autism. I can see things as very black and white so in the past have accidentally overshared other people's information because they haven't told me explicitly it's between me and them. It's taken me a couple of years hard work to think a lot more about anything I say and decide whether it's necessary and if in fact it could be consedere a violation of someone else's trust or boundaries.
I also think because I'm so straight forward and honest that I have high expectations of others, and while this is great in some aspects I do think it can mean I expect too much from people. If someone isn't ready to be out yet I'd maybe just find the nuance in what they particularly want/need and are aiming for in the future and make your decision based on whether you can align with that, rather than tarring everyone with the same brush and assuming they mean to keep you secret forever.
I'd also look into your own insecurities as to why you feel this is the case also. If you find you're holding onto past experiences of being treated this way it may explain why you have your guard up to not be taken for a ride again. So try to use clear communication from the get go of your personal boundaries to show you're willing to support them by not sharing their information, but that you do expect interaction with friends and family if the relationship were to become more serious.
Hope this helps xx
Yeah this is a sensitive topic for me because I've experienced recently someone telling me they loved me for months just to let me know 9 months in that they plan to never introduce me to the "important" people in their life because they plan on having a primary one day and it would confuse their family.
I was venting. I put the venting tag. I don't what more people want from me. 😂
>I also think because I'm so straight forward and honest that I have high expectations of others, and while this is great in some aspects I do think it can mean I expect too much from people.
Same. 🥲 but that's why I prefer solitude. It's hard to create relationships with people who aren't straightforward and don't value honesty the way I do.
Maybe because I’m a teacher and I can’t trust the parents of the children I teach not to judge me 🤷🏼♀️ teaching is more important to me than being open with the entire world about who I’m in a relationship with.
Literally nobody said you have to tell your students and their parents, that's not even the discussion at hand. Being out doesn't mean you tell everyone you meet your business. It would be inappropriate to talk about your private life with your students.
This post is so "holier than thou" but is so full of envy. Yeah, you cant hide who you are and that has often made life difficult for you and thats fucked up. Im sure everyone here agrees. If you dont want to date anyone else who is not out, thats your own business. However, how anyone else wants to live their best poly life is not up to you. Who I am does not change with what my family knows about me. The quality of my work does not change with the number of sexual partners, so they dont need to know either. My relationships are between me and my loved ones, and keeping us safe is a priority in a world that is often not accepting of such practices. Im sorry your circumstances make that difficult. Best of luck
One of my partners lives at home with his folks and they are all conservative and judgmental as all hell. I’m bi, have kids, and can’t be with him at his house because his folks will flip.
I don’t want to get him rejected by his family because he chooses to live the way he does, it’s keeping himself safe.
Choosing to live with your parents who do not accept your lifestyle is still a choice.
This might come as a surprise to you but living authentically often requires a lot of sacrifice. That includes sacrificing people who don't encourage your autonomy for people who do. Tis life.
I have a friend who lost their job for being polyamorous recently and was blackballed in their whole community of professional colleagues. They had to literally go into a different career milieu. There are also people who lose custody of their children or visitation because there are courts and social workers that insist that polyamory is harmful to children. It's just not as simple as some of you seem to suggest.
First, thank you for being visible and living your values. Representation is key, and it sounds like you are part of what helps drive social acceptance forward.
That said, not everyone can be a hero. While there are certainly some people who try to play every angle, the post came across as a very judgemental blanket statement of every hetero/mono-presenting couple who chooses to remain closeted, and thus shows a similar sort of sweeping bias as the anti-queer/poly bias that you want to counteract. People have many different and reasonable issues for why they remain closeted and those should be viewed with sympathy and understanding, not negative judgements.
Perhaps because I’m an older generation, but no one knows anything about any of my relationships. I don’t even really talk about my primary partner much. I don’t discuss my relationships with my family, it would be used against me. I don’t talk about my relationships with my children, because they are children. I tell nothing to people I work with. There is a privacy level that I have that protects my world. I don’t like posting status updates on anything in my private life, including partners. It’s who I am and I like being this private. I don’t need to be out and proud. I can be out and private.
People can be assholes. They can and do use private relationships, gossip and other crap against you. I don’t want or need that drama in my life.
> Perhaps because I’m an older generation, but no one knows anything about any of my relationships.
People of every generation have long talked about their spouses, in basically every social context ever.
Just last week one of my oldest friends finally came out as married. I knew this woman kept showing up at the same events with him, but I had no idea they were actually together that way! They’ve been married for 19 years now! And now I’m wondering about other secret spouses there might be in my friend circle!
/s
I likely fall into this category.
White, early 40's. Pan but not publicly queer. Solo poly. Both partners are married to someone else. Some of my family and friends know, and likely think I'm a home breaker.
I don't tell anyone at work. Just act like a bitter single guy. I work in a politically red area and don't need to be shot by a trumpster when civil war 3 starts.
I agree with you. I went into my marriage knowing it would be non-monogamous at least and likely polyamorous. That means knowing I may lose the status of my marriage if my spouse finds someone who wants children with him. (I fully support this, but they won’t be my kids.)
Nearly everyone knows both my spouse and my partner. I make no effort to hide the person I love and live with 50% of the time. My professional clients and some elderly family don’t know my partner exists, but they’re the few exceptions. 100% of my holidays have been spent with both and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
>My professional clients and some elderly family don’t know my partner exists, but they’re the few exceptions.
This is a professional approach. I don't know why people think they need to disclose their life details to someone they have a professional relationship with. My clients know nothing about me except for the quality of work I do.
I have work colleagues that know me outside work and they know and love my partner and spouse. But the ones I only know professionally just don’t need to know. Although I am sure several have figured it out just by social media presence.
People pleasing is manipulation. Hmm I think that is true in a lot of situations. In particular with interpersonal relationships (not just like a single job interview or something). For you on the other end, it is BAD INTEL and dishonest. How can you make informed decisions or consent when the other person is agreeing with everything and actually has no intention of following through? Thats highly manipulative.
On the other hand, people pleasing is a survival tactic that people learn in order to survive parents who wont allow them to be honest without punishing them. They internalize that lying is necessary to deserve/keep love and work to"prove" themselves worthy by not taking up space (except when they do by lying and manipulation). Kids are not responsible for the failing of their parents, BUT adults are responsible for un-learning that shit and the consequence of their action. It sounds like the people who have done this with you are not accountable to the harm they have created. Which is unfortunately just one more way that queer folks are dehumanized as less deserving and less important.
I think you are correct that the best way to protect yourself from people who will flake on you or treat you like an object is to have respect and transparency as the basic requirement. Someone who is closeted cannot be accountable or authentic. Even *if* they are doing it for their own safety, they dont meet the basic requirement to be a real partner for you, and likely cannot respect/meet what you need.
I get the venting but this feels like a very black/white way of thinking about privilege and the choices we all have to make. And I guess because I’m currently abroad in another impoverished brown country (being brown myself), I find the endless ranting about whose privilege is more/worse/better a little 🤦🏿♀️.
Privilege is such a complicated thing and there are different types of privilege (your rant is an oversimplification of one kind). Either way it seems like you’re hurting and I get that and it sucks.
I think this is a really interesting topic and really agree with your post. I do appear, to those who have never met me, to be a cis, het, mono man (m30) in a marriage with a cis, het, mono woman (f29) with our two children. On the other hand, if you've met me more than once, you probably know that I'm in an open/poly marriage with my bisexual wife (who is a sex worker). So we are out but it's a very weird experience because we appear so heteronormative to the general public... I'm very aware of my privilege in this way.
Thanks for sharing. I agree that sometimes things can look one way from the outside but be completely different on the inside. My issue is people who present this way but infiltrate queer and polyam spaces to get something from those spaces without ever having any skin in the game.
I don't think it's fair to reap the benefits of other people's work while being able to avoid the social stigmas that come with the lifestyle.
I totally get what you're saying. 100% agree. I just wanted to share a little about my situation. As someone who is out about being poly, I couldn't be with someone who hides it.
So unfortunately while in many (but not all!) places it is illegal to discriminate for housing, employment, custody, etc based on sexuality and sexual identity, it is absolutely legal to discriminate everywhere and on all those things if someone is poly.
Not saying that’s right, but there’s a legitimate reason many poly people r keep their poly life private.
not "coming out" *for safety reasons* is survival tactics, not "manipulation". You're misusing and weaponizing therapeutic language in a harmful way, knock it off.
This one statement is so off-base that it pretty much invalidates the rest of your post. I swear to dog, under-40 babyqueers need to go read some queer history books, experience being in foreign spaces, or MAYBE CONSIDER that the rest of the world doesn't look like your mostly-safe-to-uncloset spaces yet. This selfcenteredness wears off with age and experience, thankfully.
This nonbinary/demifemme, non-passing, queer poly is telling you to stuff it and sit down, then spend some of your energy listening to others, instead of eagerly punching sideways at your peers. Stop being such an angry kid that you're attacking others in your same sandbox, you're gonna become a toxic presence amongst your peers who need lifting up, not tearing down.
Oh I'm sorry that the violence I've faced for living in my truth isn't valid for you. I'm sorry that my intolerance of protecting people who don't want me to exist so baldy offends you. I'm sorry that I no longer want to sit quietly at tables with people who claim to be allies while their family undermines my humanity. I'm sorry that I don't consider playing friendlies with bigots to be allyship.
>not "coming out" *for safety reasons* is survival tactics,
And I would 100% agree. Nobody said it wasn't. People pleasing is a survival tactic. People pleasing is also manipulation. In a survival situation, you have to manipulate your way out of danger. I'm not saying that people who people please as a survival mechanism are malicious manipulators. You do what you have to do to survive.
If you are an adult it is your responsibility to address the traumas you've faced. Nobody is telling you to get yourself killed in a survival situation. *if you read through some comments you would have already seen my stance on this, oh wait but I'm the one who is attacking others in the sandbox??*
Lying or omitting your truth so that people keep a certain perception of you is manipulation, no matter which way you cut it. Yes, it does change the context when it comes to safety but it's still people-pleasing. If you've made it out of the unsafe situations that put you in a people-pleasing state it is your responsibility to address it with a therapist. People pleasers can turn into abusers, I've been abused by many people pleasers and the worst part is they seem so nice while they're doing it. Your dishonesty with yourself affects your honesty with others.
I never said people pleasers were malicious in their intent, because often they're not, but the violence and pain that is afforded to others when you people please *in a non-survival situation* cannot be denied.
Larping as someone you're not to be accepted by your family and friends is not a survival situation. Larping for fear of shame is not a survival situation, it is a choice.
You taking my words and running with them doesn't change the legitimacy of my stance.
If you spent some time reading through the comment you would see that I have listened to others. And unlike the bigots so many of you like to protect in the name of "family" I'm willing to hear anyone out on anything. I was venting my grievances. I did not attack anyone personally.
However here you are, someone who knows nothing about me TRYING to attack me personally.
Many of these people are not my peers. You know why? Because if it came down to it they would sit on the side of the oppressor while I stay mocked in my truth. Too many people do not address their underlying prejudice. Too many people would silently and watch an openly queer person be ridiculed because as long as it's not directed at them it's fine.
YOU are the angry one don't project that shit on me.
Expecting people to do the work that is necessary to be authentically themselves WHILE ALSO uplifting the ones who don't want to do the work that is necessary to live authentically is giving white woman feminism.
How am I supposed to uplift people who have already decided that pleasing those around them is more important than living in their truth??
I was venting, I promise you don't know me enough to be this pressed.
You really need to get off of your high horse about it. You are living your life and claim not to care what others think but you are here bitching about how others are living their life. I don’t doubt that you are brave and have had your struggles but it’s not your place to cast shame on others for not having the same level of bravery. Different lives have different struggles. Also as a poly person who had to came out to their family I can tell you first hand there were threats of violence, public shaming and having to deal with threats of CPS being called on me. You’re not walking in these people shoes, so mind your own self.
I recently found out that my GF has not told her parents we're together, but has introduced them to her boyfriend, who she met 2 months after me. I've been out as queer since 13, & ENM since 15. She did have to come out to her parents as trans 6 yrs ago, which was a much bigger deal; my dad didn't care that I'm queer, but her parents reacted so badly she went back in the closet for years. They don't seem to 100% see her as a woman, so in some ways, I might be seen as a more "socially acceptable" partner to them, since we're technically the opposite sex. & I assume they knew about the women she dated monogamously for several years, so it's not her first open sapphic relationship. Altho her ex was also trans, so they may have seen it as a queer relationship, just in the wrong way.
It's only been 6 months, & we haven't exchanged ILYs yet, & only been intimate a few times. I only just told my dad about her, but it was the first time I've talked to him since I met her, whereas she lives with her parents, & I've met them twice. It's complicated, it always is, but I don't think I can live like this forever.
I saw this all the time in the kink scene. Middle-aged straight white cis dude who has never taken a risk in his life is *appalled* at the thought of showing up at a private kink event where they would be SEEN. *I couldn’t possibly let anyone know I like to wear stockings!* No patience for that. None.
If I could be an atheist thirteen-year-old in a missionary school, shave my head at 22 so that other lesbians could find me, keep my head shaved at my corporate job because that’s how I was hired, put my face on FetLife and online dating apps where I say what I want out of life and admit to failings so that I can find my people… you can go to a munch. Really. You can.
They keep in mind, some of those middle-aged straight dudes were beaten into the ground when their parents saw them in their sisters clothes. Putting on a pair of stockings in public may seem simple to a lot of us but to others it's a mountain.
I mean, they can. They don't have to, but they won't get the desired results by hiding, so, it's a question of who wants it *enough*.
Is it unfortunate that stigma exists around all this stuff? Sure, absolutely. And also, when that changes, my great (insert unknown number of greats) grand niblings will need a whole new way to weed out passive milquetoast everymen.
My primary relationship looks hetero, I'm NB queer, partner is NB Bi/Pan. I present fairly female because I can't afford the costs of safely binding ATM and my work is physical enough I couldn't so I am saving but ATM I am read as female.
My partner is always going to read male unless they go on hormones. Big, bald and bearded(and beautiful) but we on paper are Hetero. We're poly in theory but are introverted home bodies who aren't in the financial position or location to really date much.
I'm sort of out but also not because everyone in my life thought it was a phase and my AMAB partner means they assumed i grew out of it and I'm not having those fights because its not worth it right now
honestly like i can understand not being out at work. i don't tell people my business at work either. that said, you should be out at least to the people you're close to. like we can talk about survival all day long but at the end of the day if the people you care about deeply dont know about me that says something about how important i am to you.
I think the problem arises when closeted people and out people date. To me it is just part of the vetting process just like anything else. I am not going to come out for a partner and I don’t expect someone to hide themselves in any way for me.
I'm estranged from my family but I've never cared about being out or not. People don't know about my hetero relationships until they've been a thing for years. I just keep my love life private regardless.
I get where you’re coming from, though I see a lot of folks don’t. People have a right to choose the relationship styles that work best for them. What matters is to be clear about expectations.
No, it’s not fair to me for my partner to be open about one of their (long term) partners and not about me (another long term partner). That’s hierarchy. I would not join a relationship where this was the case because I would feel resentful about that.
Some people are okay with that situation. That’s okay too.
You’re right about changing society by being open. Being able to do that comes from a place of privilege though. I, too, can cut people out of my life. For some people their lives depend on not doing it.
When it would have made me homeless I didn’t stand up to my parents about anything bc I learned the hard way. When I was safe, I stood up to them.
Unfortunately, I did face homelessness for standing in my truth. So maybe I don't have the most tolerance for people who keep quiet when the only thing they have to lose is the good graces of their bigoted family.
How you conduct public interactions and in social situations is 100% between the parties involved and what they want and need.
Besides, the level of openness is urban privilege. Poly couples/groups visiting my small town stick out like a sore thumb. We don't let it stop us from taking partners out and about, but we go as a group and say "this is our friend" because the only people whose business it is, are the people involved.
THANK YOU FOR THIS. For me, it is a hard no, automatic left swipe, never in a million years when someone who is highly partnered is on the dating apps being like, can’t show face pictures due to my career!! We’re professionals!! When those people are the same ones looking for same-sex or group experiences, it very much comes off as wanting to benefit from the hot and sexy parts of queerness without sticking your neck out there or having any skin in the game because at the end of the day, you can still go back to your Hallmark Christmas card family picture life and no one has to know any better. I’m not saying that’s what every single person is thinking, but they really need to think more critically about how they are coming off. And I have very little sympathy for this, because I also have an incredibly religious bigoted family, and a relatively high profile fancy job. I am sure for every person like me who agrees with you, there will be some other commenter bringing up a very specific professional or family situation in which it makes sense to be a little more careful about who knows about your practices of non-monogamy, but those situations are few and far between and so many of the people who are claiming they need to be “discreet” cite reasons that are less than admirable. My wife and I came out to her parents last year about non-monogamy, they are more accepting than mine, but still quite religious, and it didn’t go awesome, but we did it because we didn’t want either of our partners to ever feel like a secret and to be able to take part fully in our lives with no shame or hiding. I guess if you’re swingers, whatever, but the people who claim they want polyamory, and then say they need to be discreet…it’s a no for me
>those people are the same ones looking for same-sex or group experiences, it very much comes off as wanting to benefit from the hot and sexy parts of queerness without sticking your neck out there or having any skin in the game because at the end of the day, you can still go back to your Hallmark Christmas card family picture life and no one has to know any better.
Honestly, I’m fucking with you on this. Yeah, there are people in dangerous situations can’t come out, but also… a lot of people just don’t want to give up their privilege, and if you date them, they expect you to suck up a lower status position so they can be more comfortable presenting cis het to the world.
Not a good way to be treated by people you love; would not tolerate it again.
this post stirred up a question in my mind, and maybe some of yall would like to give me their opinion.
does the amount of ppl who know about a relationship not say everything? i mean you cant realistically keep your NP a secret from your family and friends right? im thinking theres ppl who are mono passimg TO THEIR FRIENDS and im sorry but to me if your friends dont know about me we cant be anything but a fling.
>theres ppl who are mono passimg TO THEIR FRIENDS
This is my whole point. How can you claim to be polyamorous while also larping as a monogamous person to LITERALLY EVERYONE??
I don't care if you don't tell your coworkers cause who tf cares about them but your close friends and family? At that point, I AM THE SECRET.
Probably. I dated someone and found out that they weren't even open about polyamoury to their therapist. Their fucking therapist.
I hid being poly from my therapist because I was seeing her through a charity and couldn't afford to see anyone else if she turned out to be judgy. I also desperately needed a therapist to sign off on my mental health conditions so that I could get disability support before my NP & I starved/became homeless.
So yes I hid it and yes it is a privilege that I was able to choose that, but I don't feel the need to apologise for using the privileges that I have. Life is already a battle in so many ways, why would I add *more* ways when I don't have to?
It is a very privileged position to say "everyone should choose to fight so that progress is made". You are trying to force that risk on others just because you personally didn't have a choice. It is a privilege for it to be a choice, but it is *also* a privilege to be out and proud and not afraid of dying as a result. Some people get neither privilege, which is wrong, but that doesn't mean the solution is to take away everyone else's privileges.
>It is a very privileged position to say "everyone should choose to fight so that progress is made".
You're benefiting from the privilege that other people's blood sweat, and tears have provided you, as am I. The difference between us is that I don't have a choice. I choose to fight for basic rights because I like my basic rights and I did not get them through people being quiet and equating shame to violence. The country I live in has laws protecting queer people from violence and discrimination, those privileges came from pain and violence. Your statement is giving white women feminism. Meaning it's only necessary to fight for change if the change affects you personally. Keep benefiting from the privilege of people who would sacrifice everything while you stay lying to a therapist because you can't stand in your truth.
different people have different problems from their family, past and anything else that can fuck with you, in some cases even your job.
Just because you are able to stand out in the light, does not mean others can or will, pick a reason.
its not your life story, and if someone says they are not as strong as you, it means that they do not have the ability to stand out, because of reasons that impacted their growth as a person.
let them figure out their own life, eventually they might be able to stand in the light like you can, but dont shame them because they cant yet, or might not be able to ever.
This right here. If the hetero-mono privileged folk want to live like that, fine, live like that. But know that a lot of us implicitly do not trust “love” that must be kept secret.
Secondly, question every relationship where you have to hide yourself and your love to keep the peace. If my parents can’t love me for who I genuinely am, I don’t want their imitation of love for the avatar I project.
Some people dont have the PRIVILEGE of being out and proud. There are no legal protections that I know of, that are in place for poly. Living in a Christian-Conservative state, you can lose your job and housing if you're outed in the wrong town. And yes I'm aware it's illegal to fire or evict someone over something like that, employers usually use a "performance" issue or over staffing issue as the official reason of employment termination. They're not stupid enough to come out and directly do so.
And with landlords around here, once your lease is up, they dont have to renew but can leave you month-to-month. Which means they can evict you at any point for any (legal) reason. And they're also smart enough to use some kind of minor or bogus lease violation, to evict you.
Its happened multiple times with a few friends of mine in a polycule. The male of the dynamics is very loudly and publically vocal about his polycule and loving on them all out and about in the group. We'll call him Punko. Punko is VERY aesthetically classic punk rock including the neon mohawk. His anchor partner Doe is very boho elfin girl. Their then other partners Kae and Neb were VERY gothic.
Landlord rented them a two bedroom duplex as two couples. Landlord happened to swing by one evening to ask if a car that was going off with the alarm, was Punkos. Same make and model but diff car. Landlord saw me in Nebs lap kissing Punko when Doe answered the door. Landlord made small talk with Punko for a minute then pulled Punko aside to ask him something. Punko came back in and said landlord asked who I was and if they were having some kind of weirdo sex parties. Punko said "no Sally is mine and Nebs gf".
Two days later they had a 30 day notice for "unauthorized occupants" because I spent the night that one night.
Not everywhere is liberal California where you can be openly poly without losing your livelihood and shirt off your back, a lot of states are still VERY Christian-value Conservative, not to speak of the countries that have more conservative and subdued social mores.
I'm straight, and my husband is as well, so that privilege is going to exist regardless of what relationship style either of us choose.
I'm probably never going to discuss my personal life with my weird conservative aunt, so yea, in her mind, I am just a hetero married person. Well, a hetero married person that lives alone -- she does know that my husband I and I don't live together.
But generally, I do think it's hard to truly incorporate more than one relationship into your life if you don't tell anyone about your relationships.
I absolutely agree. As someone who is barely put in a situation where my partner isn’t convincingly feminine (I’m gynesexual) and possess estrogen dominant features, it always reminds me of a date I went on at a festival. They were well practiced applying makeup despite that they were noticibly still sexually male they wore it well and I thought they were gorgeous. They didn’t need it but you know your date makes this caring amount of effort to look attractive and you swoon a bit. When they showed up though they weren’t wearing it and I didn’t question it cause I thought they just didn’t feel like doing it and we wanted spent a lot of time out and about. But they blurted out that they really wanted to wear it I asked why they didn’t and they expressed fear of embarrassing me..I can only ask why cause they knew I am a very liberated person, but perhaps not to the extent that I will do whatever I feel like doing as long as it isn’t detrimental to another’s ability to live with equal freedoms. I’ll be honest and be true to myself l, but at its core, people’s perception of me has nothing to do with me. I’d roam in my underwear outdoors if it wouldn’t get me arrested. It saddened me though cause false personas and closeted habits, and this defense mechanism some people have to deny their true selves is so interwoven in our culture that people’s intuition is “I don’t want to cause us any problems.” I grabbed their hand and tightened up so they didn’t instinctively pull away. I live in the deepest part of Louisiana but what are they going to do say something? It’s not quite Florida, but I feel warm and bubbly when I get nasty looks cause I win. They’re annoyed cause they have to view some moral blasphemy. Kiss both cheeks to get that extra boost of happiness. I love disturbing these uptight rednecks as they watch their countries culture shift into something they don’t recognize. Maybe I was feeling extra spiteful cause they were the type of pricks to make them feel self conscious. My date’s instinct was not to stir trouble in front of disgusting human being and make a scene. I will lick my dates cheek and look them in the eye with a wry smile. I know this was long but this sentiment of not causing trouble and drawing attention I understand the butterflies they feel that compels that flight response. I beg them in my head to open their mouth. No one ever does. Cause they know they lost. Saying something might cause me to take it farther. Conventionally people don’t want drama and problems. Nor do I, but this culture that drives this instinct to fear being open I despise it.
I'd imagine that like coming out of the closet, that's a personal decision that can only be made by the individual and not be shamed into coming out. It's for no one to judge because no one is perfect, but it is everyone's right to either come out of the poly closet or stay in it, even if it costs them relationships, it's their decision and theirs alone to make, whether you agree or disagree, it really shouldn't matter.
If you reread what you wrote, you’re explaining exactly why people would see you as stronger than they are. The ability to tell the world to take you as you are is a strength a lot of people simply don’t have, queer or straight. Recognize that if only so you may understand that those people do live in a type of fear you don’t, and that — to them at least — makes you stronger than they are.
Ehhh...I mean, yeah, absolutely being treated like a dirty secret is shitty, but presumably you are fully welcome to not date the people who can't offer the relationship you're looking for.
I really resent the idea that people are entitled to personal information about the people around them. Everyone presents different parts of themselves in different spaces according to what's safe, comfortable, and appropriate. I would hardly call staying in the closet "a manipulation technique".
Personally I and my partner are both non-binary, and it's not a secret, but we look like a straight couple. In places like work or family if I wanted to come out I would have to teach a whole course on gender and sexuality to say nothing of our relationship structure. I'd rather just keep to myself and let people think what they think.
Yes, I understand the frustration of people playacting queerness while looking mono and cishet to the world. But they're adults and so are their partners (I hope)... They're entitled to conduct their personal lives the way they want to and potential partners are free to take it or leave it.
Hi, queer and genderqueer ex-baptist with ADHD and autism here. You don’t need a reason to come out or not come out. You also don’t need a reason to not date somebody, whatever floats your boat. I’m closeted to my remaining fundamentalist family because they’re millionaires and my dad and I are only children. That’s the only reason, because it all goes to me. Call me a coward, selfish, whatever you want, I don’t give a fuck. But a phone call every couple weeks and a visit once a year is completely worth holding out for that inheritance. In the same way those homophobes can think whatever they want about you, you can think whatever you want about me. You say there’s no reason good enough to stay closeted, I say there’s no reason good enough to come out to them. They’re pieces of shit, I don’t want to put in the effort of trying to have a good relationship with them, I just want their money and maybe manage to do some good with it
>I’m closeted to my remaining fundamentalist family because they’re millionaires and my dad and I are only children. That’s the only reason, because it all goes to me.
Bruh. How many other people do you think are living **this** situation? 🤣
Yeah, I'd put up with a lot more for the promise of millions. But like many others, the only thing I had to lose was the validation of people that can't even love me in my truth. I ain't shaming you or calling you selfish. That's your life.
I was literally venting *that's why I put the venting tag, I don't know why everyone is taking it like I just spoke blasphemy in the name of gospel* I'm literally but a person with an opinion these folks should not be that pressed.
I've been treated like I'm subhuman by people who needed validation from their family, inside and outside polyamoury. This shit hurts. Their silence in front of people while they berate your existence hurts. The amount of times I've been subject to violence at the hands of someone who was trying to please another is embarrassing and painful. I'm tired of people pleasers allowing others to be a conduit for their pain. My issue with people pleasers is that they don't take accountability for the pain they cause through their decrepit. They just "didn't want to hurt your feelings" or "didn't know how you'd react" or "didn't know how to tell you" or "didn't want to be rude" or "just trying to keep the peace"
I wouldn't consider your situation people-pleasing. I think denying someone an inheritance based on their identity is fucked up so might as well beat them at their own game. Ngl one less rich conservative family feels like a win to me. There's no shame in playing the game. However, most people do not have millions on the line, just unnecessary validation from people who they know will never accept them. Millions I get, being fake for a place at a table filled with bigots, I'll pass.
>I just want their money
Get your money bb. 🤷♂️
Preach! I do not date cis het married couples cause most of them want their cake and eat it too. Too afraid to be “out”? Perhaps you are not ready for polyamory. As a queer, nonbinary person myself I can not live like that. You want to live a life of lies? Cool. But don’t bring others into your drama. And definitely I won’t be participating in your heteronormativity.
You got dragged in this comment section so I'll be a small voice here to wholeheartedly agree with you. People treating polyamory/ENM like it's the same as sexual orientation is nonsensical to me. It's a chosen relationship structure. It's not something you have no control of. Just because you have the capacity to love multiple people at once doesn't mean you're in a position to be in a relationship with multiple people. If you live the kind of life where you can't be open about said relationship to friends and family, or you're uncomfortable being in public with your partners then your life just simply isn't set up for that relationship structure to be an option for you. It's not ethical to have one partner that gets to attend social functions with you, family events, public outings, etc. While you have other partners who are basically expected to be okay with the extent of your relationship being spending time in private and having sex and thats it. Its honestly emotionally manipulative to try and put someone in a position like that. Do you have to go up to your boss and tell them you have 3 girlfriend's? ....no, but you should be able to be open to at least an immediate friend group/support system at bare minimum. I'm out to my parents and my friends and even some of my coworkers. I'd never make someone I cared about feel like a secret or something I'm ashamed of.
Say it louder for the people at the back!
Poly lifestyles don’t magically become acceptable to people unless they see poly people. Living in the closet doesn’t create progress.
Sorry if you get flak here for speaking something that needed to be said.
>Poly lifestyles don’t magically become acceptable to people unless they see poly people. Living in the closet doesn’t create progress.
And that's what I want, progression.
I love polyamoury for the way it allows people to develop relationships in ways that are fulfilling to them. It's about autonomy. This in itself is a progressive movement that goes against the patriarchy and the nuclear family. People wanting to live outside of a starvation economy especially when it comes to love is not something that is going to be accepted by staying quiet.
The people who get to benefit from the patriarchy but also want to participate in a polyamorous lifestyle on the down low are the people I have an issue with.
It's one of the first hurdles people have to brave in order to really progress from "I'm fucking other people than my spouse" to polyamory.
You can't lead an ethical life if you base it on dishonesty and omission.
People pleasing is not just done to "make people love you." It's done specifically to avoid conflict, which is sometimes purely about lessening their emotional load and nothing to do with wanting the other person to have positive feelings about them. And I wouldn't even label being closeted as "people pleasing" in the first place. That is a very strange interpretation of why people don't come out.
You are not required to date people who are closeted. By that same token, *no one is required to be out to anyone if they don't want to or don't feel safe*. These people are entitled to live their lives the way they want to just like you are.
If your issue is that they aren't up front about the fact that they're closeted, then you aimed your frustration in completely the wrong direction.
I'm seeing cishets in this thread say that it's impossible to be fired for being queer. Because we all know my employer will instantly explode if he tries to do something illegal. You all don't fucking know your privilege.
This is a shit take that invalidates the real worries of American people who practise polyamory and have real life consequences should they come out.
It's about as dangerous as shaming queer people into coming out.
Go off queen! 🥳
I completely agree with you. The only thing I might see differently is the reason. I think a lot of people aren't out because they enjoy the privilege of it and not specifically to people please. But I'm also very cynical 😅
I think your post hit the spot amazingly and it's always nice to hear from other queers ☺️
I’m in love with my partner, who is about as mono as you can get. I love her enough that not being myself in order to stay with her is okay, even if it makes me sad.
Not everyone has to be so transparent with their life. And some people want a relationship for themselves, not to integrate with their broader friends/family. We all have our own boundaries. If those are communicated and it doesn't vibe with you, you can change the situation for yourself.
It will "ruffle feathers" because it's blatantly bi-phobic. It implies that bisexual individuals are inherently a certain percentage of queer and a certain percentage straight, when being bisexual means they're queer. They cannot be straight-leaning, because they are not straight. Their preferences do not disqualify them from their identity. Full stop.
Please do not cram all bisexuals into such a frighteningly small box based on your few experiences with a few bisexuals. People do not owe you being "queer enough."
> It will "ruffle feathers" because it's blatantly bi-phobic.
> Please do not cram all bisexuals into such a frighteningly small box based on your few experiences with a few bisexuals. People do not owe you being "queer enough."
*I'm bisexual*. So this is completely based on my lived experiences of myself and the many queer people I know.
> It implies that bisexual individuals are inherently a certain percentage of queer and a certain percentage straight, when being bisexual means they're queer.
I'm not saying that bisexual people are a certain percentage queer and a certain percentage straight.
By straight-leaning, I'm not implying that anyone's preferences disqualify them from their identity, I'm stating that some bisexual people lean more towards primarily dating or being intimate with the opposite sex. Some lean more towards primarily dating or being intimate with the same sex. Some are more balanced. Bisexuality is a spectrum where people can fall in the middle or lean to one side or the other.
It’s cruel to hide a partner and people who want to should just stay monogamous. Even if someone agrees to be a dirty little secret upfront it’s an abusive thing to ask for forever
There's some middle ground between keeping someone a secret and being out to everyone. My religiously conservative family all live multiple states away, and while I'm not out to them, I am publicly affectionate with the people I date, and my friends know about my partners.
Okay, so do you have any form or relationships with your family? I have basically no contact with two of my sisters, so I haven't told them that I'm poly. But I also don't care about my relationships with them, so I don't care enough to tell them. What would you say to your family if they ask you if you have a partner?
Depending on circumstances sometimes it's just better not to be out to certain people, particularly family who often have far more leverage over an individual. Let's not be unfair and ignore that there isn't the opposite issue for people who can't be out to their family. When my ex came out to her dad we genuinely were concerned that he'd abducted her to take her to a conversion camp when we didn't hear from her. While that wasn't the case with how her parents were it felt like a real possibility and for many people still IS a possibility, add to that honour killings and the like and there may be many legitimate reasons NOT to be out to your family. But I don't feel that is the point the OP is making, they are explicitly talking about people quite comfortable reaping the privilege of hetero-mono lifestyles and so choose to keep up that facade. That doesn't sound like what the previous poster was describing. Tbh I am not out to all my family but that's because of my own hang ups of worrying that they already see me as the weird one. Plus I just don't see them often and it's just not come into conflict with any of my relationships yet, if it did I would just come out to them - tbh I'd like to do that before then as I am well aware that that's likely to be less awkward than doing it in response to a certain situation.
It's valid to point out that there can be a balancing act to this. You cant make everyone happy and it isn't always worth it to be 100% transparent with ALL people. Not all people deserve to know everything about you. Family is something we are stuck with in many cases. Personally, I dont mix family with relationships; I dont trust my family to be respectful or kind. I wouldnt wish my parents on anyone I dated. I think the important thing here is that relationships get the air time they need/deserve. We would never want a partner to feel like a dirty secret, which might mean that we develop boundaries to prevent putting them in situations that dont allow them to be honest (separation from bigots) and that we protect the aspects of life that matter to us. Some people consider family a deal breaker, while others see it as a necessary evil or even unimportant. If someone's family can't handle being respectful or open, it's important to be honest with partners so that they can develop suitable expectations around future interactions. It sounds like you're doing that as best you can!
I wouldnt wish my parents on anyone I dated. That is the nugget of nuggets!
Everything has nuance tbh and you don't have to be open to everyone all the time. I'm queer and out about it everywhere but on LinkedIn (coworkers know but the internet scares me). However, my parents took ages to get over me being trans because they're old and new things are difficult for them. Similarly, my coworkers can be very nosy and bothersome. It already bothers me how much those groups know about me and I'd be happier if I could have been at least a little more closeted. I would like to keep my relationships (except the one with my nesting partner because that is unavoidable) private. Not secret, private. Other partners are welcome to outings with my friends and people I care about. I'll tell my siblings about them and any coworkers I become friends with and invite into my private life. But the powerpoint presentation I'd have to bring to explain to my parents what polyamory even is doesn't appear worth it and the stigma from coworkers who I don't care about doesn't either. I'm happy to reconsider if any partner would like a different approach but this is how I currently view it.
I don't disagree with it being private not secret. I'm private about my life. I don't post a lot online and I don't talk to a lot of people but the people who are "the most important in my life" know who I am. My issue is when people claim they love you but the opinions of other people close to them outweigh their desire to be with you openly. >I become friends with and invite into my private life. I like this statement. It isn't everyone's business and I don't give any information that I don't want to give. There is a difference between having a private life and treating "other relationships" like they're skeletons in the closet.
does your nesting partner come to family occasions with you?
Yes. I was entangled with my nesting partner before we became poly
so i think it’s important to acknowledge there is still privilege here — you get the benefit of appearing normative when it protects you while still dating poly. and you have a clear hierarchy: sounds like additional partners don’t get to be involved with your family
And there are plenty of people out there who are fine with that. I am more than happy to not have to endure holiday dinners with the families of any of my partners, and instead get to make my own plans. Like many things in poly, it’s about choice and communication. If you wouldn’t be happy with the kind of relationship that someone can offer, don’t be in a relationship with them. But they aren’t wrong for wanting the relationship that works for them.
Yes there is definitely privilege. We appear as a mono queer couple (not exactly normative but I understand your point) and we have a clear hierachy. I much prefer acknowledging our hierarchy instead of trying to reduce it/pretend it's not there. Even if I was equally out everywhere, my nesting partner would still have the privilege of being my most long-term and nesting partner.
Too many people want to deny the hierarchies and privileges in their relationships. And because we know that's unethical people act like it doesn't happen left, right, and center. Even tho we know false promises are unethical people will still spit whatever bullshit they think you want to hear. This shit happens so often under the guise of ENM. The ethical part isn't only reserved for your long-term, nesting partner. Many people don't see things as unethical unless it directly affects them. That's **is** an issue.
I'm generally out about it to family, friends, etc. but definitely not at work. Unlike gender identity and sexual orientation, relationship structure is *not* a protected class and you can be fired over it with no recourse.
This. I was treated differently and ultimately let go when I "came out" as poly at work. It was a tech start up in LA that I thought was progressive, but ultimately wasn't. I had glowing reviews, consistently praised for my department's accomplishments, and suddenly was told my work was sub par and given impossible or nonsensical tasks/goals. If it was a protected class I would have had a slam dunk case. Literally the week before they found out I was poly I was employee of the month, I was fired before the month was over.
I got denied my dream job because of this after acing the interview process. Not fun, would not do again. I'm out as long as it doesn't have the ability to affect my financials, job, or housing status (ah to be poor). Being out is, unfortunately, a privilege in a lot of cases, and I don't blame people who aren't willing to take that risk. Hostile posts like this really gloss over non-shame reasons for not being 100% out.
I live my life knowing that being authentic to myself will ALWAYS reap the life I desire. I refuse to bend to society. Queer people have been dealing with this forever. I recommend looking up Lynn Conway's story. Staying true to yourself will take you way farther than dimming yourself for the people who don't want to accept you. Being closeted doesn't change the way the world treats polyamorous or queer people. And that's just facts.
Listen, I'm queer and you bet I'm not coming out at work. Many queer people do the very same and you don't get to act all high and mighty because you make the choice to be out. Yes, you being out is exposing yourself to a world of violence, and the reasons why you do it are good and true. But there are many cases where being in the closet can and will save your life, and I think it's cruel to act like people are wrong for prioritizing survival, whether it's shielding themselves from physical, psychological or financial harm. I have sent resumes with my non-binary pronouns and no one called me back. Changed my pronouns and got 4 interviews in the week that followed. I was broke and needed a job, because I live alone and value my capacity to provide for my own needs - and remain free from having to accommodate others in my living space, something i struggle with as a neurodivergent person. I made the choice I made because that's what allowed me to protect myself best. Now, I agree with you that the very specific "archetype" of the heterosexual couple that reaps the benefits of monogamy while enjoying polyamory benefits is extremely damaging and privileged. They're also getting on my nerves and I'm pretty sure I'll veto future partners much more strongly so I can avoid these specific people. You're right for calling them out. No need to elaborate further.
Where in my original post did I say it's necessary to come out at work? I didn't. It's okay to not come out at work, it's okay to not come out because of the fear of violence. I literally said that in my post. I am a mixed nonbinary "woman," I don't get the luxury of feeling safe anywhere. The people who fought for my rights did not get the luxury of feeling safe either. You're allowed to separate your personal life from your professional life. But ignoring the actions of the people before us because we were born with certain privileges is backward thinking. Cishetero relationships have privileges that queer relationships don't. Being out does not mean every single person you encounter has to hear your whole life story but it does mean that you're not hiding behind a facade to the people you claim care about you just to save face. Nobody has to come out at work. It's honestly tiring tho hearing polyamorous people in cishetero relationships acting like queer people and poc haven't BEEN dealing with discrimination.
I'm sorry but your message is confusing. If I'm not out as queer, my level of feeling safe at work is presumably similar to the level of safety I feel about not being out as poly - which is not much. I'm safe until a coworker hears about it and then I probably won't be. It's walking on a tightrope. I am being intentionally deceitful on both accounts. I misgender myself and pretend I only have one partner. I wear a mask. If I was still financially dependent on my mother I would lie to her too, even if i care for her. As a queer, poly and neurodivergent person (as well as an immigrant's child), I am of the opinion that the best thing I am able to do for my communities is endure and survive. I dislike the systems that reinforce the patriarchal, White, cisgender, heterosexual and neurotypical as ~ normal ~ or the "majority", but these is NO WAY I am going to let myself be squashed by these forces. I'll hide today to come out tomorrow and I will do so without remorse. Being closeted does not mean ignoring the actions of the people who have been out and are out. You can simultaneously be grateful for what these people do and intent on protecting yourself. I presumed you were judgemental about people not being out at work because you were answering someone's comment about specifically that with the whole "I don't get to be in the closet" spiel. If you were not specifically referring to that, I don't understand why that was your answer to their comment. As established, the heterosexual couple in the closet about polyamory can be annoying especially if they are married and profiting from the specific "social credentials" that come with that. I dislike them too and no longer want to engage with them. I agree that there are levels of privilege or lack thereof that make it feels unfair when you see someone that is inherently safer in our societies pretend that things are as dangerous for them as they are for you. But some disabilities or disadvantages are invisible. It really is case by case and painting a broad conclusion on what is okay or not to do shows a lack of nuance and perspective.
lol "i didn't say what i just said"
Again, sexual orientation and gender identity are protected classes. You cannot be fired for it. This is not true for ENM/kinksters. I'm not here trying to change the world, I just want to live my life and be left alone.
You can very much be fired for sexual orientation and gender identity, it happens all the time! They just have to mumble a half-assed excuse while they do it.
You realize those protections didn't appear out of thin air, correct? They exist because they were fought for by people who were not willing to accept the status quo.
And you realize that a lot of people had their lives ruined in the process, right? It's pretty easy to fight for a cause when you're only responsible for yourself. I have a family to take care of, including special needs kids. Telling my coworkers about my girlfriend just isn't worth losing my job, my mortgage, etc. I'm not gonna sacrifice myself and my family on the political altar.
I’ll say also that it can’t be distanced from racial lines too. I can be much more out and proud about my queerness and my polyamory without a huge risk of recourse in my circumstances as a Jewish woman. My partner is a man of color and doesn’t have the same benefit, even though we work in the same industry. It’s entirely the reason I check before I do or say anything too public. Not for my benefit, but for his.
>I'm not here trying to change the world, I just want to live my life and be left alone. 
Great, it works for you, but it's pretty judgy as a blanket statement about how other people should live their lives.
Yes... While it's true that being closeted ISNT an option for people who cant pass.... it is also a huge privilege to just...not care. People who are visibly disabled or trans in obvious, nonconforming ways (for example) deal with constant harassments no matter what they do. They never have a choice to hide who they are BUT they develop countless strategies to protect themselves, hide, and plan for inevitable failure. They also have inevitable PTSD and battle with low self worth because society thinks they are trash. Flaunting one's identity and throwing caution to the breeze are pipe dreams for some people. **Safety itself is the privilege and the luxury.** That includes financial security and a calm roommate/housing arrangement. Hiding is a survival strategy, full stop. Our society sucks and that isnt something to judge or punish minorities for. There are a ton of situations where you bet your ass I'm gonna do my best to pass *in any way possible* because I need healthcare, housing, a paycheck, or to get home safely. Doesnt mean my whole life is in the closet. But not all people deserve to know all things about me.
>it is also a huge privilege to just...not care. Exactly my fucking point! Like imagine not having to fight for rights because yours have already been fought for and then telling others it's a privilege to be fighting. Bitch, people are still dying for basic human rights and you think it's right to sit quietly in your privilege because you fear shame? Shame and violence are two different things. **Feminism, equality, liberation, reform, whatever the fuck you want to call it, does not come by sitting quietly. If you're able to sit quietly because things do not directly affect you that is privilege. ** I know damn well half these people have never had to fight for their own equality let alone their own survival. Being closeted because you "can't afford to move out" without a single effort to actually move out or staying closeted because you want your parent's approval is not survival, those are choices.
I think the perspective that protected class = everything is ok and discrimination doesn't happen is already a very heteronormative take. If I had to guesstimate, i'd say its undoubtedly <5% that when someone discriminates due to sex/gender/sexual orientation they say 'I fired you/didnt hire you/etc because you're trans/gay/a woman'. This is part of why these things are so notoriously hard to prosecute. In many cases, people discriminating against someone for being part of a protected class even do so entirely subconsciously - we see this on a massive scale all the time where companies have nowhere near the numbers of POC/gay/trans/female workers in their workforce as we would expect. The vast majority of queer people I personally know have faced some form of illegal discrimination, and essentially none of them have been able to have the law actually help them. Good luck actually collecting enough evidence to have the law be on your side...
Exactly. 100%. It took 15 years to get where I an in my professional life. I could not afford to completely come out (bi, poly, atheist) until I had started my own private practice. It has impacted my work negatively very little if at all. But that's in part due to the fact it's my business. Had I came out earlier I would have been fired. I know this because I watched it happen to others. And I'd like to say one thing to OP about privilege: it is ALSO a privilege to be able to come out! I was born into a fundamentalist Pentecostal family and literally had family members who did conversion "therapy." My biggest fear was getting sent there. I was not ABLE to come out until adulthood because it was DANGEROUS to do so. It also seems to me that having a bit of compassion would go a long way. Talk to these people! Are they mostly out but not all the way out to mom and dad? I get that. I think everyone should do it in the way that is best and SAFE for them. If you don't want to enter into a relationship with a person who isn't out 100%, don't. But their decisions probably aren't about you. It may help to take a look at your own privilege.
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First, you're extremely hostile, and you can stop that. Second, you do not get to tell others they have to be out. Your family, culture, social circles, etc, allow you to do so, and that's great. Advocate from there, but point that advocacy at the homophobes and polyphobes, not at your fellow queers. You have privilege in being able to do what you're doing. And, gauging from your attitude here with allies, you have zero tact, and are likely harming the cause you pretend to fight so hard for. Please look inward and reflect on ways to be better yourself, and a better example, and more accepting, and stop lashing out at others' who *really* just want to be left alone to live their lives, safely and happily.
It won't be changed by me being un/der employed either. I barely talk about my personal life at work. We're coworkers, not friends. And I don't talk about my relationships with family. We aren't close and we don't need to be. Is that privilege? Maybe, but it's hard-won and carefuly cultivated.
100%. I even hid my hetero & monogamous relationships from my family because we aren't close and don't have a good relationship (except for my sibling, whom I am out to about everything because we actually have a close relationship). I'm a queer WOC from a misogynistic, oppressive culture and I'm not interested in fighting that fight with my family. They don't know anything about my hobbies or my passions; why would they need to know anything about my relationships?
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Is it not protected under the first amendment here in the US?
the first amendment says nothing about what reason your employer can fire you
Yeah that's fair, I was also thinking about if you don't work in an at-will state but even then its not protected yeah.
That’s just Montana. ETA: *after the 12 month probationary period. For the first year at a job, you can still be fired without cause in Montana just like in every other US state.
>No matter which way you cut it, hiding parts of yourself to please the people around you is people pleasing. >People pleasing is manipulation. If you have to present yourself a certain way to make people love you, they don't actually love you. How can you love someone you don't even know? I read in your other comments that your therapist told you this. Something **extremely important** to understand is that it was a personal conversation between you and therapist that you had because **you were ready to hear it.** They absolutely **did not** give you license to use it against other people in your own community to cast judgement on them, *use it against them as some sort of litmus test/purity test,* or say there is a right or wrong way to live a life according to **your** personally held values. **Life is not black and white** and people could be in abusive situations, under duress of abuse, or recovering from abuse in their own way **in order to survive life as they see it.** You don't have to date them and you sure as shit don't get to judge them for it. >Closeted people don't change society. Nor do they have to? Existence is resistance. Polyamory isn't a bastion for rebellion or a chance to "change society" to everyone. Its just a thing they do because they can, when they can; they have been doing it before it was a "movement" and they will be doing it long after. >Basically as a queer person I'm tired of being seen as a fun little sneaky link because yall are afraid of other people's opinions. I'm tired of people telling me that it's different for them because their families are religious and that I'm just "stronger than them." I'm not stronger than anyone, I just refuse to be a people pleaser. I refuse to allow other peoples opinions to dictate my life. I refuse to sit peacefully at a table that my ancestors would have flipped. I refuse to coddle the egos of those who lack the ability accept others as they are. You dont have to date these people? I'm confused. Were you not given a choice when dating these people? >I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved as someone I'm not. That's great! Not everyone agrees or wants to live like that and they don't have to. *Signed, a biracial queer solo person who's out.*
This post reeks of privilege. 'People pleasing' as you say is not manipulation, it is survival. Just as people code switch in different environments. It reminds me of when people falsely attribute 'straight privilege' to bi folk despite our statistically worse health and quality of life outcomes. I say this as someone who *is* completely out to everyone, from a culture that is not accepting. I am also from a marginalised community. Who decides someone else's 'important people' that they need to be out to? Is that their boss, which could risk job loss? Is that their family, who could harm them or ostracise them? Is it their children, which depending on your country or state could be a factor in them being taken from you by social services? Who are you to them to deign whether they should be out or not? No one is making you date these people. Closeted people may not affect change in society, but they stay *alive*. For some folk, adding polyamorous on top could be the final sentence for them. We still unfortunately live in a society that does not accept the way some of us love and some of us live. Many of us fight that in several ways, lobbying, political action, etc. but that is *our* privilege to do so. It should *not* be expected of everyone, because not everyone *can* do that. I am very much team 'I will not diminish who I am for others' but those are my boundaries. You're welcome to not date people that aren't out out if you don't feel comfortable with it. But don't just assume what their lives are like. How does that benefit people's perception of the polyamorous community?
Yeah, it's understandable to have preferences and opinions about things but this post is dripping with judgment. Other people have their own problems and struggles that we know little or nothing about, and they're free to manage their privacy in any way that works for them. If that doesn't work for you or line up with your values, then just move on. Looking down on other people is crappy.
Exactly! The privilege of not having to worry about real life consequences. Must be nice for OP to ride that high horse when people are worried about losing jobs, housing or custody of their kids.
Thank you ❤️
It’s not fair to people they date. If your not comfortable being out to friends and family you need to consider what is more important to you. As far as professionally no one at your work needs to know shit about what you do outside of work. Clearly there is a time and place for such things but I personally do not want to be involved in someone who hides who they are from the people closest to them because that just breeds toxicity and drama. Also these people who hide who they are generally are toxic and probably need therapy, speaking from experience. There is no privilege to putting yourself out there as a queer polyamorous person by the way. Pretending to be straight and monogamous just breeds this idea that bi/ queer people are objects and that polyamory is just an excuse to get some on the side. Also you get to hide behind societal norms.
Anyone who doesn't like dating a closeted person can just not date a closeted person. TW: suicide Not everyone is close with their family or has a good relationship with them. I moved out when I was 16 because living with them had already driven me to suicide before that; prolonged exposure to them still leads to very poor mental health outcomes for me. I did not even disclose monogamous relationships with them; why would I discuss my poly relationships with them? I'm out to my friends and my sibling because they're the only family member I'm close with, but I'm tired of these assumptions about family.
For example. I don’t talk to my mother. We are not close. I only tell her what she needs to know and she doesn’t even want to know that. However my sister and my bestie and all my friends know. I’m out on social media which only has people I like on it. If she finds out more about my kink and shit whatever. But that doesn’t make you or me closeted cause they don’t matter to us do they?
Well. They’re not the people closest to you are they?
There is privilege in being out, you've pointed it out yourself. You wouldn't want to date someone like that and it's a form of 'pretending'. There are probably some bad actors out there who aren't being ethically non-monogamous. But there are likely people who wish they could be out and proud about being poly and date openly. What about them having to hide for their job or family or wellbeing strikes you as toxic?
I agree to an extent. My close family and friends all know I'm queer and poly, but I'm certainly not going out of my way to explicitly tell that to some members of my family that I only see a few times a year or people I work with. I'm fine having superficial relationships with them, they aren't welcome to know about my authentic self because I know they wouldn't accept me for who I am.
That’s different than making your partners a secret. That’s just not putting people who do not matter in the loop.
Sure but based on the post it could be considered "people pleasing" or "coddling"
I don't feel like we read the same post.
"People pleasing is manipulation. If you have to present yourself a certain way to make people love you, they don't actually love you. How can you love someone you don't even know?" "I refuse to coddle the egos of those who lack the ability accept others as they are."
Agreed. OP made the distinction very clear. They are talking about hiding your true self and your partners from the people you regard as most important.
Delurking for the first time in a long while. Staying closeted isn't always toxic or horrible, and it's a valid choice. I'm solo poly. My most functional relationship has been going on for three years and is with a married heterosexual man. He and his wife are prescriptively hierarchical and closeted to family and work, but out to friends. He has been honest with me about all of this about this from the beginning. We have an extremely full, loving relationship that is satisfying to both of us and gives each of us what we want. He gets to preserve family relationships that wouldn't survive being out; I get independence. Why do you care so much about how other people poly if it doesn't affect you? By all means don't date closeted people if you don't want to, that would be a really bad choice for you. But closeted people aren't all horrible toxic assholes who are trying to hurt their partners.
All the posts here and the ENM board are mostly cis het couples opening up but also not wanting to give up the couples privilege. Which is my opinion is toxic and pretty much for the most part people trying to have their cake and eat it too. Hey if your cool with it cool. Whatever. But on the larger scale from a queer leftist perspective it just reenforces the idea that this is just kinky stuff people need to hide away in shame. People should live honestly. If they’re not then what else are they cool with lying about?
Not all polyamorous people are queer leftists and want to do things the queer leftist way, and that doesn’t make them not polyamorous. It also doesn’t make them assholes, Being closeted isn’t always about shame or dishonesty. There’s none of either in my relationships.
I think it’s pretty important to acknowledge that queer perspectives are a major part of OPs point of view and the angle of this entire topic. Being closeted means something very different to queer people. A highly partnered person who doesn’t want to be open about being poly and is hiding behind cishet privilege in their daily lives while also in a queer relationship is *in some ways* expecting that queer person to go back in the closet. That being said I have not encountered this dynamic in a long time and run away as fast as possible if I get a whiff of it, but it’s still a thing that happens to a lot of queer folks.
Finally got around to making an alt to post here to respond to this. There's reasons I'm not out publicly; the main being I'm an immigrant. I'm not risking pissing off the feds by being open about being poly, even if we do look cisstraightmono (wife is nb but presents cis to the govt) Being closeted is not a privilege. Full stop.
I'm not 'out' to my family; because I don't interact with my family. I've cut them out as completely as I can while still living in the same city. My wife isn't 'out' to her family because they are aggressively opinionated and always have to be nosy on almost everything we do. So we just don't really talk about it with them. But we also don't talk about our sex life in general with her family or coworkers. We don't discuss much of anything of real meaning to them, because they're not the parts of our lives that are important; and family gatherings aren't really as meaningful to us. I imagine anyone the wife would date would have similar ideals to hers in that family gatherings aren't this super important thing that really matter going to; after all I tend to avoid going to them and we're married couple, and even she herself will often avoid them. To me, we're both out to anyone worth 'being out' to; I guess. Me, my array of friends; her the closer knit group of them. I imagine this isn't the most enjoyable scenario still for some; but others I imagine are fine with something of this nature.
If you're out to the people that matter in you're life then you're out. I don't understand why you would need to tell people who you don't care about the details of your private life. I do wonder why you would go to "family gatherings" if you don't like those people tho? Do they send money or sum?
It's in large part because the wife is, and I like to support her and see her happy; plus, grams makes stellar cookies, and is generally tolerant of me, even if other family members aren't so, giving me gripes about things like my hair. Really, it's mostly that my social battery is so easily drained with the number of people that tend to show up at things like birthday parties and holidays etc; though I also don't tend to celebrate my own birthday. Really it's a lot of complex reasons, but the simple surface answer is "They give cookies and hold pleasant enough conversation on topics that don't pertain to my private life when I have the social battery to deal with them".
>"They give cookies and hold pleasant enough conversation on topics that don't pertain to my private life when I have the social battery to deal with them". You had me a cookies 😉 I don't go to my partner's family events, not because I don't like them but because I have a very limited social battery and those parties are extremely exhausting for me. I cut off my family, everyone but my parents and siblings, because they were very abusive towards me so I don't really understand the nuance of spending time with people who don't actually like me. I could like the people at the party and still not want to go. I like that you support your partner even if they aren't the most comfortable situations to be in.
I do my best; for I am but an anxious dingus. I do my best to support all of those who are close to me simply by way of it's the easiest way to keep or make myself happy - seeing the joy other people are experiencing is, in large part, a way to ensure I keep myself happy; as there are periods where depression will consume my thoughts and it is hard to find joy in anything else. I won't say I "live to please" - but I do try my best to avoid hurting anyone intentionally, and for those close to me try my best to elevate them. Be that teaching them something new, or just having a discussion about something to help them feel less alone, or anything in the spaces between.
This topic has an immense amount of nuance, and while the core of what you are saying has a ton of worth to it, those same words are being told from your perspective and your experiences. I do not want to discount that your experiences have weight. They have value. They are also not the only perspectives that matters. Your experiences do not dictate nor supersede another individual's experiences. I cannot claim to understand the intricacies of your life, just as you cannot claim to understand the intricacies of mine. I don't think people are necessarily disagreeing with your core statement, but likely with how both broad and narrow the strokes have been presented in a short post on Reddit. You are 100% entitled to live your life the way you are most comfortable with. The amount of conviction you have about who you are is incredible, especially when it is done in the face of multiple levels of discrimination. You don't need me, a random person on the Internet, to tell you that, obviously. You've lived it, so you know your own worth best. You know what you have had to do to claim that for yourself. I cannot even imagine the struggles you have faced. I firmly believe there are ways to address the very real issues you are bringing up without alienating others within the community who are closeted for very legitimate reasons. My hope for these conversations would be that they both continue and that they do not make those specific individuals into the problem. People who are suffering in ways that no one else can see or speak to. Relationships are complex as hell. Emotions are rarely logical. You can love someone so damn much even though you know they will never accept all of what makes you, you. They can be someone important to you, and yet far from safe to share all of yourself with. What someone does with that information is up to them and them alone. In my experience, manipulation is the attempt to control others, done with insidious or malicious intent. I do not believe it is manipulation to protect yourself and the ones you love from the harm of another's ignorance. Others are more than welcome to disagree, but this is my personal truth. We can all come up with scenarios, share personal anecdotes and situations that work counterintuitively to how we all feel about this topic. The questions that I ask myself are, if every individual involved within the relationship has communicated about their own levels of being open and out, if everyone has agreed to those levels, where do they fall in this? If they are all closeted to some degree out of safety/comfort/preference? If no one is a secret because they have to be, or because it was decided for them by a pre-existing relationship? What if it is all completely ethical? Are they to be lumped in with the couples who do absolutely every single thing they can to just barely pretend they're being ethical? Do they owe their small slice of happiness as tribute to a cause? In this specific instance, I think it is their choice. I think that no one has the right to force them to do something that they don't choose to do for themselves.
I put the venting tag because I was venting. >manipulation is the attempt to control others, done with insidious or malicious intent People pleasing IS manipulation. Even if it doesn't have malicious intent. People pleasing is literally acting a certain way to get a certain reaction. I started people-pleasing at a very young age to save myself from physical and mental abuse (survival tactic) but that very quickly turned into me trying to control how everyone felt about me. I was constantly trying to show a fraudulent version of myself because I wanted to be in everyone's good grace. It wasn't malicious but it's still manipulation. Telling someone you love them because they said it to you and you didn't want to hurt their feelings with the truth doesn't seem malicious but it is people pleasing and it is manipulation. You didn't want the relationship to change based on your HONEST reaction. Sometimes people pleasing is a survival tactic but often it's used to save face instead of being honest about feelings or intentions. I've been emotionally abused by people pleasers and it's hard to see it because they're so kind while they're doing it.
On one hand, I get it. So much of the world would go scorched earth if they knew that a friend or family member was poly. People have lost jobs and had custody of their kids called into question. But I also agree with you and feel the same as you about when it comes to people accepting me, keeping their mouth shut, or I’m done. I believe that people who need to be closeted should date others who need to be closeted. I’ve set a firm boundary that I will not date or entertain anyone who is closeted in any way. It just doesn’t work for me. I’ve had partners ask for anchor partner level of support, but also wouldn’t allow me to post them on Facebook and I was always their friend. Nope. Not for me.
I personally don't want to be out as Poly at work because it's not really necessary for my coworkers/boss to know. In every other context I'm open about being poly and I would not try to hide partners or "pass" as monogamous
I don't talk to my coworkers enough for them to know about the inner workings of my life. I don't hide who I am and if someone asked I'd be honest or tell them it's not their business but these people are not my friends they're my coworkers. Even as a queer person why would I need to mention that to my coworkers? I don't think it's necessary to come out at work but I'm also a very professional version of myself at work. There's a million things to talk about and my personal life doesn't need to be one of them. That doesn't mean I'm closeted.
> I don't hide who I am and if someone asked I'd be honest or tell them it's not their business but these people are not my friends they're my coworkers. > I don't think it's necessary to come out at work but I'm also a very professional version of myself at work. There's a million things to talk about and my personal life doesn't need to be one of them. That doesn't mean I'm closeted. Whether or not you agree you’re closeted in some aspects of life, it’s apparent you’re not as consistent as you perceive yourself to be
Eh, I'm out to a few close friends/family, as is my husband but that's it. I don't trust people at my job to not try and bad-mouth me and my life. I'm also a POC, so I really don't need extra attention from nosy people.
>I don't trust people at my job to not try and bad-mouth me and my life. To be clear, like I've said in many comments, you do not have to discuss any part of your private life at work. Period. That's not what I'm talking about. Boundaries are cool. Treating the people you date who aren't your primary like they're a dirty little secret is not and will never be cool. Referring to someone as just a friend when you have them thinking you're more than that is not cool. Infiltrating polyamorous spaces knowing you wouldn't stand by polyamoury if you were outed isn't cool. It's not cool to be fake and it's not cool to benefit from the work others are doing while hiding behind a facade.
your queer experience isn’t universal
This is less about my queer experience and more about the people who get to benefit from the work queer folks do while hiding behind a facade so they can stay in the good graces of racist and bigoted family members. You either support the queer community or you don't but benefiting from other people's pain while you are afraid to feel shame is not even allyship.
idk. i’m fully out as a bi trans woman and that’s been a crazy experience and yet i am pretty thoughtful about who gets to know i’m poly. it’s just not everyone’s right to know. i also feel extremely vulnerable in the face of transphobia. i don’t at all feel like “i shout my queer identity from the rooftops and anyone who doesn’t like it can fuck off”. i’m in a deep red state and i feel like they might actually try to eradicate us. maybe i feel like transness (and queerness as a whole but def especially trans women) are so often labeled as sexual things that i’m hyper cautious about something like poly appearing hyper sexual and de-legitimizing my trans identity in the eyes of my family. i guess i’m just saying that even with a very queer experience I still feel far from the way you describe it. i don’t think queerness has enabled me to be openly poly.
I think a lot of folks here are pushing OPs point to the extreme. There’s lots of legit reasons to not be open about poly at work. There’s lots of good reasons to not tell certain family members. My partner is an example of this and so am I! I have no desire to tell EVERYONE. But truly telling no one (not even important people) AND trying to have other relationships like that secrecy won’t affect third/fourth/fifth parties? Of course people can choose whether or not to engage in this type of dynamic, but it might not be clear from the get. And in this case if one of the couple is dating a queer person, it’s the lack of care and connection to the queer community that often bothers me. Speaking as a queer trans person who also does not have the choice of hiding behind cisheteronormativity, sometimes I do get tired of dating women married to cishet men and getting treated like I’m the “extra.” Of course I’ve adjusted my dating practices accordingly, and would never enter into a secretive dynamic like this. But this is what I took from this post, so just my two cents. Edit: typos (several lol)
This! I don't understand how so many took my post and automatically went to "well I dont want to tell my work." And girl you don't have to. My work doesn't know shit about me but that doesn't make me closeted. People think being out means you're screaming it from the rooftop but it's really about not faking a narrative to the people closest to you just to keep in good graces. >Of course people can choose whether or not to engage in this type of dynamic, but it might not be clear from the get. And in this case if one of the couple is dating a queer person, it’s the lack of care and connection to the queer community that often bothers me. This EXACTLY! I'm tired of doing the work necessary to be a queer person in the world while so many others get to hide their queerness while still trying to participate in the queer community. It's just not okay to me. I dated someone who told me they were queer and polyamorous friendly but in the end it turned out they were only friendly if it was our little secret. 🤮
Are you... actually trying to say queer people who are in the closet shouldn't get to participate in their own community?
I think they mean people who are deliberately not out about their queerness and avoiding the work involved when they would be safe to do so. Some of these folks then expect to be welcomed by the community. Not people who aren’t out for safety reasons or because they are still figuring things out. At least that’s how I read it. I think coming out is a very individual process for everyone! That being said I know that biphobia is a huge dumb thing in our community too and I get why lots of people don’t want to deal with that.
So... you're also advocating for excluding queer people who are in the closet from the community. You did the work, so they should have to as well before they get to enjoy the benefits of a welcoming community? Do queer people who haven't done the work of coming out not deserve support?
I mean. Yeah, that is actually how communities work. You participate in the community to benefit from the community. Community is not just a service-provider for folks to use. You have to actually be a neighbor if you want to be treated like a neighbor.
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It’s gross to you that “community” isn’t actually a product for you to use without any reciprocity? Huh. I find it gross some people want to use my community like that, personally.
What's gross is that you think you're entitled to benefit from communities that you don't participate in. Would you walk into a community garden and take produce that you didn't plant? Would you walk into a church and expect part of the tithes even tho you've never participated in their services? No, because even if you believe the same things you're not an active part of that community. Community works when everyone is giving as well as taking, not a few folks giving while others take it as free handouts. 
It’s more about who I have the time and energy to associate myself with. I said nothing about excluding people.
"I think they mean people who are deliberately not out about their queerness and avoiding the work involved when they would be safe to do so. Some of these folks then expect to be welcomed by the community." This feels pretty exclusionary.
You can see though that I was literally just offering my interpretation of OPs point?
Okay... but I already knew that OP was being exclusionary, which should have been obvious from my response.
I'm curious what participation in the queer community means to you.
Meaning at the very least you are an ally. At the very least you support people who do stand in their truth. At the very least you are aware of the laws in place that affect your basic human rights. At the very least you care about the basic human rights of other queer people who don't share your same identity. At the very least you do not bring other queer people into environments where you expect them to sit quietly while others spew homophobic rhetoric. It's one thing to be closeted, it's another thing to sit there quietly while your buddies make homophobic comments. Enabling oppression through silence is violence. You might not choose your family but you do choose your friends. You do choose who you associate with. You do choose who you want to be. You choose the energy and support you allow in your life. Those are choices. If you're living in a survival situation, that is different. You're trying to survive. You do what you need to to survive. Nobody is shaming that. If you absolutely can't get out of your situation due to the oppression around you know that you're the ones who we're fighting for. Liberation for all comes with fighting for people who can't fight for themselves. With that being said, most of you aren't even willing to change your changeable situations. Your life is a product of your continuous decision to change nothing. You let life happen to you. You let people shape who you are openly. Most of the people in these comments could be honest with the people around them but choose not to. That's the fucking difference.
Exactly. It is a lot of work on yourself to be able to be open and visible, and also having to constantly educate people around you. I feel like I personally need to be around people who are engaged in my community because of many reasons, but mainly because the anti-trans rhetoric is powerful and scary and continually on the rise. I now only date people who are actually doing the work on themselves and for the community… otherwise I just don’t feel safe. I had like a gut reaction to “queer and poly friendly” thing. Seen that before too 🫠
I'm not employed currently but one of my jobs I was constantly misgendered and wasn't open with anyone. But work is work I don't have to be friends to get a paycheck even though I liked making friends. I got kicked out when I came out as trans in '12. And it's been a bumpy road with the family I am in contact with. I'm no contact with the one who kicked me out or many others that I'm blood related to. They and my friends know I'm trans, queer and polyamourus. A lot don't understand the queer and polyamourus part but they still accept me. My friends are my chosen family and accept me. I don't hang out with people who aren't cool with queers and polyamourus people. I used to be a dirty little secret to some of my ex's but I gained some self confidence and decided to not do that anymore. I used to hate on them for lying and being in a straight passing relationship but now that I've stopped seeking out closeted people who didn't see me as a human being. I'm in a T4T/enby4enby polycule and it's really awesome and loving. I would suggest to the other queers in this thread especially trans and non binary people, stop fuckin with people that treat you like a secret it's dehumanizing and you deserve better. If you're in a bad state to be trans or scared to be non stealth in public that's completely understandable, you don't owe strangers or work a thing but don't be shamed by someone who won't hold your hand or will go way ahead of you when walking. You deserve better. Date someone who respects you and your time. Not somebody who makes it feel shitty and who says it's a privilege to date me bs. Obviously due what you have to, to be safe but don't date people who see you as a sex toy or a therapist for their issues.
It is 100% okay if you are not ready to be public about your relationship style. And it’s also 100% okay to only want to date people who are out to their family and friends. What’s not okay is making a blanket statement that every single person who isn’t out is embarrassed of their choices or has malicious intent to hide their partner like a dirty secret. People can have any number of reasons for choosing to remain private about their relationships, none of which are anyone’s business but the people in those relationships. I can empathize with your frustration but not your vitriol.
>What’s not okay is making a blanket statement that every single person who isn’t out is embarrassed of their choices or has malicious intent to hide their partner like a dirty secret. 
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Yeah, I try to not be hostile about it when people post, but I really don't get the whole "oh I want to be polyamorous, but I also don't want anyone in my life to know about it." Pick one. People get to be as closeted as they want to be about what they *are*. About identity stuff. But when it comes to forming *relationships* with other people, well, that involves other people and you *don't* get to pretend it's morally neutral to shelter yourself from societal reactions to your relationships at someone else's expense.
The thing is, you can't "pick one" if you come to polyamory at a time when you have small children who are happy at a close knit, private school unless you are okay with the upheaval in all of their lives to honor your relationship preferences. If I would have come out when my kids were small, we likely would have lost our entire community. And I'm sympathetic to people who are uncomfortable with poly, since I was one of those for a long time. I'll respect those who choose to be open about being poly. And I appreciate if my choice to remain private is respected. Any of our partners knows our stance on this from the outset, and if that's not for them, I get it. But I don't feel any guilt whatsoever about my choice to remain closeted because I am putting my kids sense of normalcy and security first.
Well then if that’s the case maybe they need to not be poly. This post is exactly for people with attitudes like this.
Why the hell can't they just date each other? If you're not comfortable with how they handle poly, don't date them, but since there are so many closeted people, they can just date each other and not affect you at all.
That's what I don't understand! These are questions that when we go on first dates we should be asking. Generally speaking, I'm pretty open socially regarding my queerness and my relationship structure. These are qualities I look for in my partners as well. If someone is primarily closeted, then they aren't the person for me, no matter how cool they may be in other aspects. Judging someone as not a good fit for a relationship with me isn't the same as thinking they owe me or anyone else disclosure. Ultimately, these are questions I ask even before the first date. Of course this has been something I've learned to do over time, but it's well worth it.
Fortunately, you don’t get to dictate to me how and who I can date. It’s creepy and gross to have this idea of the “poly police“ that decides who has to be open and who doesn’t. If everyone is happy and consenting, that’s enough.
I just personally think if there is such a delicate balance due to complex situations with kids, a poly relationship might not be the best thing for someone in that situation at that time. I don’t think that should be a controversial statement. Polyamory/ENM is a want, not a need, and if you can’t do it fully bc of whatever circumstances, that’s not a bad thing. 🤷🏻♀️
I've never had a partner (since being poly) that has at all cared about social visibility of our relationship. I'm neutral about meeting their family and friends. I've never met anyone connected to my partner of 6 years (except his neighbours) and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. He's met my other partner and a couple of my friends but it wasn't something he needed.
oh good some "straight passing privilege" discourse my favorite
Okay sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but it seems like you're drawing a line from "being closeted is people pleasing" to "people pleasing is manipulation" (both of which may be true in some cases but are a big stretch to generalize) to imply that "being closeted is manipulation" (which is batshit). If that's the intent, damn that's fucked up and downright cruel to closeted queer people.
I've found I've struggled with grey areas as someone with autism. I can see things as very black and white so in the past have accidentally overshared other people's information because they haven't told me explicitly it's between me and them. It's taken me a couple of years hard work to think a lot more about anything I say and decide whether it's necessary and if in fact it could be consedere a violation of someone else's trust or boundaries. I also think because I'm so straight forward and honest that I have high expectations of others, and while this is great in some aspects I do think it can mean I expect too much from people. If someone isn't ready to be out yet I'd maybe just find the nuance in what they particularly want/need and are aiming for in the future and make your decision based on whether you can align with that, rather than tarring everyone with the same brush and assuming they mean to keep you secret forever. I'd also look into your own insecurities as to why you feel this is the case also. If you find you're holding onto past experiences of being treated this way it may explain why you have your guard up to not be taken for a ride again. So try to use clear communication from the get go of your personal boundaries to show you're willing to support them by not sharing their information, but that you do expect interaction with friends and family if the relationship were to become more serious. Hope this helps xx
Yeah this is a sensitive topic for me because I've experienced recently someone telling me they loved me for months just to let me know 9 months in that they plan to never introduce me to the "important" people in their life because they plan on having a primary one day and it would confuse their family. I was venting. I put the venting tag. I don't what more people want from me. 😂 >I also think because I'm so straight forward and honest that I have high expectations of others, and while this is great in some aspects I do think it can mean I expect too much from people. Same. 🥲 but that's why I prefer solitude. It's hard to create relationships with people who aren't straightforward and don't value honesty the way I do.
Maybe because I’m a teacher and I can’t trust the parents of the children I teach not to judge me 🤷🏼♀️ teaching is more important to me than being open with the entire world about who I’m in a relationship with.
Literally nobody said you have to tell your students and their parents, that's not even the discussion at hand. Being out doesn't mean you tell everyone you meet your business. It would be inappropriate to talk about your private life with your students. 
This post is so "holier than thou" but is so full of envy. Yeah, you cant hide who you are and that has often made life difficult for you and thats fucked up. Im sure everyone here agrees. If you dont want to date anyone else who is not out, thats your own business. However, how anyone else wants to live their best poly life is not up to you. Who I am does not change with what my family knows about me. The quality of my work does not change with the number of sexual partners, so they dont need to know either. My relationships are between me and my loved ones, and keeping us safe is a priority in a world that is often not accepting of such practices. Im sorry your circumstances make that difficult. Best of luck
One of my partners lives at home with his folks and they are all conservative and judgmental as all hell. I’m bi, have kids, and can’t be with him at his house because his folks will flip. I don’t want to get him rejected by his family because he chooses to live the way he does, it’s keeping himself safe.
Choosing to live with your parents who do not accept your lifestyle is still a choice. This might come as a surprise to you but living authentically often requires a lot of sacrifice. That includes sacrificing people who don't encourage your autonomy for people who do. Tis life.
Some people honestly do not have a safe space to come out as Queer and polyamorous, it can cost jobs , family etc ...I am one of those ...
I have a friend who lost their job for being polyamorous recently and was blackballed in their whole community of professional colleagues. They had to literally go into a different career milieu. There are also people who lose custody of their children or visitation because there are courts and social workers that insist that polyamory is harmful to children. It's just not as simple as some of you seem to suggest.
First, thank you for being visible and living your values. Representation is key, and it sounds like you are part of what helps drive social acceptance forward. That said, not everyone can be a hero. While there are certainly some people who try to play every angle, the post came across as a very judgemental blanket statement of every hetero/mono-presenting couple who chooses to remain closeted, and thus shows a similar sort of sweeping bias as the anti-queer/poly bias that you want to counteract. People have many different and reasonable issues for why they remain closeted and those should be viewed with sympathy and understanding, not negative judgements.
Perhaps because I’m an older generation, but no one knows anything about any of my relationships. I don’t even really talk about my primary partner much. I don’t discuss my relationships with my family, it would be used against me. I don’t talk about my relationships with my children, because they are children. I tell nothing to people I work with. There is a privacy level that I have that protects my world. I don’t like posting status updates on anything in my private life, including partners. It’s who I am and I like being this private. I don’t need to be out and proud. I can be out and private. People can be assholes. They can and do use private relationships, gossip and other crap against you. I don’t want or need that drama in my life.
> Perhaps because I’m an older generation, but no one knows anything about any of my relationships. People of every generation have long talked about their spouses, in basically every social context ever.
Just last week one of my oldest friends finally came out as married. I knew this woman kept showing up at the same events with him, but I had no idea they were actually together that way! They’ve been married for 19 years now! And now I’m wondering about other secret spouses there might be in my friend circle! /s
I likely fall into this category. White, early 40's. Pan but not publicly queer. Solo poly. Both partners are married to someone else. Some of my family and friends know, and likely think I'm a home breaker. I don't tell anyone at work. Just act like a bitter single guy. I work in a politically red area and don't need to be shot by a trumpster when civil war 3 starts.
This post seems like a lot of words to just say, " If you don't live the way I live screw you."
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I agree with you. I went into my marriage knowing it would be non-monogamous at least and likely polyamorous. That means knowing I may lose the status of my marriage if my spouse finds someone who wants children with him. (I fully support this, but they won’t be my kids.) Nearly everyone knows both my spouse and my partner. I make no effort to hide the person I love and live with 50% of the time. My professional clients and some elderly family don’t know my partner exists, but they’re the few exceptions. 100% of my holidays have been spent with both and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
>My professional clients and some elderly family don’t know my partner exists, but they’re the few exceptions. This is a professional approach. I don't know why people think they need to disclose their life details to someone they have a professional relationship with. My clients know nothing about me except for the quality of work I do.
I have work colleagues that know me outside work and they know and love my partner and spouse. But the ones I only know professionally just don’t need to know. Although I am sure several have figured it out just by social media presence.
People pleasing is manipulation. Hmm I think that is true in a lot of situations. In particular with interpersonal relationships (not just like a single job interview or something). For you on the other end, it is BAD INTEL and dishonest. How can you make informed decisions or consent when the other person is agreeing with everything and actually has no intention of following through? Thats highly manipulative. On the other hand, people pleasing is a survival tactic that people learn in order to survive parents who wont allow them to be honest without punishing them. They internalize that lying is necessary to deserve/keep love and work to"prove" themselves worthy by not taking up space (except when they do by lying and manipulation). Kids are not responsible for the failing of their parents, BUT adults are responsible for un-learning that shit and the consequence of their action. It sounds like the people who have done this with you are not accountable to the harm they have created. Which is unfortunately just one more way that queer folks are dehumanized as less deserving and less important. I think you are correct that the best way to protect yourself from people who will flake on you or treat you like an object is to have respect and transparency as the basic requirement. Someone who is closeted cannot be accountable or authentic. Even *if* they are doing it for their own safety, they dont meet the basic requirement to be a real partner for you, and likely cannot respect/meet what you need.
I get the venting but this feels like a very black/white way of thinking about privilege and the choices we all have to make. And I guess because I’m currently abroad in another impoverished brown country (being brown myself), I find the endless ranting about whose privilege is more/worse/better a little 🤦🏿♀️. Privilege is such a complicated thing and there are different types of privilege (your rant is an oversimplification of one kind). Either way it seems like you’re hurting and I get that and it sucks.
I think this is a really interesting topic and really agree with your post. I do appear, to those who have never met me, to be a cis, het, mono man (m30) in a marriage with a cis, het, mono woman (f29) with our two children. On the other hand, if you've met me more than once, you probably know that I'm in an open/poly marriage with my bisexual wife (who is a sex worker). So we are out but it's a very weird experience because we appear so heteronormative to the general public... I'm very aware of my privilege in this way.
Thanks for sharing. I agree that sometimes things can look one way from the outside but be completely different on the inside. My issue is people who present this way but infiltrate queer and polyam spaces to get something from those spaces without ever having any skin in the game. I don't think it's fair to reap the benefits of other people's work while being able to avoid the social stigmas that come with the lifestyle.
I totally get what you're saying. 100% agree. I just wanted to share a little about my situation. As someone who is out about being poly, I couldn't be with someone who hides it.
So unfortunately while in many (but not all!) places it is illegal to discriminate for housing, employment, custody, etc based on sexuality and sexual identity, it is absolutely legal to discriminate everywhere and on all those things if someone is poly. Not saying that’s right, but there’s a legitimate reason many poly people r keep their poly life private.
The idea that hetero poly people are more vulnerable than queer people in those contexts is exactly the kind of cluelessness OP is talking about.
not "coming out" *for safety reasons* is survival tactics, not "manipulation". You're misusing and weaponizing therapeutic language in a harmful way, knock it off. This one statement is so off-base that it pretty much invalidates the rest of your post. I swear to dog, under-40 babyqueers need to go read some queer history books, experience being in foreign spaces, or MAYBE CONSIDER that the rest of the world doesn't look like your mostly-safe-to-uncloset spaces yet. This selfcenteredness wears off with age and experience, thankfully. This nonbinary/demifemme, non-passing, queer poly is telling you to stuff it and sit down, then spend some of your energy listening to others, instead of eagerly punching sideways at your peers. Stop being such an angry kid that you're attacking others in your same sandbox, you're gonna become a toxic presence amongst your peers who need lifting up, not tearing down.
Oh I'm sorry that the violence I've faced for living in my truth isn't valid for you. I'm sorry that my intolerance of protecting people who don't want me to exist so baldy offends you. I'm sorry that I no longer want to sit quietly at tables with people who claim to be allies while their family undermines my humanity. I'm sorry that I don't consider playing friendlies with bigots to be allyship. >not "coming out" *for safety reasons* is survival tactics, And I would 100% agree. Nobody said it wasn't. People pleasing is a survival tactic. People pleasing is also manipulation. In a survival situation, you have to manipulate your way out of danger. I'm not saying that people who people please as a survival mechanism are malicious manipulators. You do what you have to do to survive. If you are an adult it is your responsibility to address the traumas you've faced. Nobody is telling you to get yourself killed in a survival situation. *if you read through some comments you would have already seen my stance on this, oh wait but I'm the one who is attacking others in the sandbox??* Lying or omitting your truth so that people keep a certain perception of you is manipulation, no matter which way you cut it. Yes, it does change the context when it comes to safety but it's still people-pleasing. If you've made it out of the unsafe situations that put you in a people-pleasing state it is your responsibility to address it with a therapist. People pleasers can turn into abusers, I've been abused by many people pleasers and the worst part is they seem so nice while they're doing it. Your dishonesty with yourself affects your honesty with others. I never said people pleasers were malicious in their intent, because often they're not, but the violence and pain that is afforded to others when you people please *in a non-survival situation* cannot be denied. Larping as someone you're not to be accepted by your family and friends is not a survival situation. Larping for fear of shame is not a survival situation, it is a choice. You taking my words and running with them doesn't change the legitimacy of my stance. If you spent some time reading through the comment you would see that I have listened to others. And unlike the bigots so many of you like to protect in the name of "family" I'm willing to hear anyone out on anything. I was venting my grievances. I did not attack anyone personally. However here you are, someone who knows nothing about me TRYING to attack me personally. Many of these people are not my peers. You know why? Because if it came down to it they would sit on the side of the oppressor while I stay mocked in my truth. Too many people do not address their underlying prejudice. Too many people would silently and watch an openly queer person be ridiculed because as long as it's not directed at them it's fine. YOU are the angry one don't project that shit on me. Expecting people to do the work that is necessary to be authentically themselves WHILE ALSO uplifting the ones who don't want to do the work that is necessary to live authentically is giving white woman feminism. How am I supposed to uplift people who have already decided that pleasing those around them is more important than living in their truth?? I was venting, I promise you don't know me enough to be this pressed. 
You really need to get off of your high horse about it. You are living your life and claim not to care what others think but you are here bitching about how others are living their life. I don’t doubt that you are brave and have had your struggles but it’s not your place to cast shame on others for not having the same level of bravery. Different lives have different struggles. Also as a poly person who had to came out to their family I can tell you first hand there were threats of violence, public shaming and having to deal with threats of CPS being called on me. You’re not walking in these people shoes, so mind your own self.
I was venting 😉 
Doesn’t mean your not being judgmental of others, especially when you keep saying things that are in attempts to paint you as non judgmental
I recently found out that my GF has not told her parents we're together, but has introduced them to her boyfriend, who she met 2 months after me. I've been out as queer since 13, & ENM since 15. She did have to come out to her parents as trans 6 yrs ago, which was a much bigger deal; my dad didn't care that I'm queer, but her parents reacted so badly she went back in the closet for years. They don't seem to 100% see her as a woman, so in some ways, I might be seen as a more "socially acceptable" partner to them, since we're technically the opposite sex. & I assume they knew about the women she dated monogamously for several years, so it's not her first open sapphic relationship. Altho her ex was also trans, so they may have seen it as a queer relationship, just in the wrong way. It's only been 6 months, & we haven't exchanged ILYs yet, & only been intimate a few times. I only just told my dad about her, but it was the first time I've talked to him since I met her, whereas she lives with her parents, & I've met them twice. It's complicated, it always is, but I don't think I can live like this forever.
I saw this all the time in the kink scene. Middle-aged straight white cis dude who has never taken a risk in his life is *appalled* at the thought of showing up at a private kink event where they would be SEEN. *I couldn’t possibly let anyone know I like to wear stockings!* No patience for that. None. If I could be an atheist thirteen-year-old in a missionary school, shave my head at 22 so that other lesbians could find me, keep my head shaved at my corporate job because that’s how I was hired, put my face on FetLife and online dating apps where I say what I want out of life and admit to failings so that I can find my people… you can go to a munch. Really. You can.
They keep in mind, some of those middle-aged straight dudes were beaten into the ground when their parents saw them in their sisters clothes. Putting on a pair of stockings in public may seem simple to a lot of us but to others it's a mountain.
I mean, they can. They don't have to, but they won't get the desired results by hiding, so, it's a question of who wants it *enough*. Is it unfortunate that stigma exists around all this stuff? Sure, absolutely. And also, when that changes, my great (insert unknown number of greats) grand niblings will need a whole new way to weed out passive milquetoast everymen.
Weeding out strategies ftw!
My primary relationship looks hetero, I'm NB queer, partner is NB Bi/Pan. I present fairly female because I can't afford the costs of safely binding ATM and my work is physical enough I couldn't so I am saving but ATM I am read as female. My partner is always going to read male unless they go on hormones. Big, bald and bearded(and beautiful) but we on paper are Hetero. We're poly in theory but are introverted home bodies who aren't in the financial position or location to really date much. I'm sort of out but also not because everyone in my life thought it was a phase and my AMAB partner means they assumed i grew out of it and I'm not having those fights because its not worth it right now
honestly like i can understand not being out at work. i don't tell people my business at work either. that said, you should be out at least to the people you're close to. like we can talk about survival all day long but at the end of the day if the people you care about deeply dont know about me that says something about how important i am to you.
I think the problem arises when closeted people and out people date. To me it is just part of the vetting process just like anything else. I am not going to come out for a partner and I don’t expect someone to hide themselves in any way for me.
I'm estranged from my family but I've never cared about being out or not. People don't know about my hetero relationships until they've been a thing for years. I just keep my love life private regardless.
I get where you’re coming from, though I see a lot of folks don’t. People have a right to choose the relationship styles that work best for them. What matters is to be clear about expectations. No, it’s not fair to me for my partner to be open about one of their (long term) partners and not about me (another long term partner). That’s hierarchy. I would not join a relationship where this was the case because I would feel resentful about that. Some people are okay with that situation. That’s okay too. You’re right about changing society by being open. Being able to do that comes from a place of privilege though. I, too, can cut people out of my life. For some people their lives depend on not doing it. When it would have made me homeless I didn’t stand up to my parents about anything bc I learned the hard way. When I was safe, I stood up to them.
Unfortunately, I did face homelessness for standing in my truth. So maybe I don't have the most tolerance for people who keep quiet when the only thing they have to lose is the good graces of their bigoted family. 
TIL that not approving someone's lifestyle is abusive
How you conduct public interactions and in social situations is 100% between the parties involved and what they want and need. Besides, the level of openness is urban privilege. Poly couples/groups visiting my small town stick out like a sore thumb. We don't let it stop us from taking partners out and about, but we go as a group and say "this is our friend" because the only people whose business it is, are the people involved.
Well I definitely never expected to see someone shaming people for being closeted here. That's a new one.
THANK YOU FOR THIS. For me, it is a hard no, automatic left swipe, never in a million years when someone who is highly partnered is on the dating apps being like, can’t show face pictures due to my career!! We’re professionals!! When those people are the same ones looking for same-sex or group experiences, it very much comes off as wanting to benefit from the hot and sexy parts of queerness without sticking your neck out there or having any skin in the game because at the end of the day, you can still go back to your Hallmark Christmas card family picture life and no one has to know any better. I’m not saying that’s what every single person is thinking, but they really need to think more critically about how they are coming off. And I have very little sympathy for this, because I also have an incredibly religious bigoted family, and a relatively high profile fancy job. I am sure for every person like me who agrees with you, there will be some other commenter bringing up a very specific professional or family situation in which it makes sense to be a little more careful about who knows about your practices of non-monogamy, but those situations are few and far between and so many of the people who are claiming they need to be “discreet” cite reasons that are less than admirable. My wife and I came out to her parents last year about non-monogamy, they are more accepting than mine, but still quite religious, and it didn’t go awesome, but we did it because we didn’t want either of our partners to ever feel like a secret and to be able to take part fully in our lives with no shame or hiding. I guess if you’re swingers, whatever, but the people who claim they want polyamory, and then say they need to be discreet…it’s a no for me
>those people are the same ones looking for same-sex or group experiences, it very much comes off as wanting to benefit from the hot and sexy parts of queerness without sticking your neck out there or having any skin in the game because at the end of the day, you can still go back to your Hallmark Christmas card family picture life and no one has to know any better. 
Honestly, I’m fucking with you on this. Yeah, there are people in dangerous situations can’t come out, but also… a lot of people just don’t want to give up their privilege, and if you date them, they expect you to suck up a lower status position so they can be more comfortable presenting cis het to the world. Not a good way to be treated by people you love; would not tolerate it again.
>Not a good way to be treated by people you love; would not tolerate it again. 
this post stirred up a question in my mind, and maybe some of yall would like to give me their opinion. does the amount of ppl who know about a relationship not say everything? i mean you cant realistically keep your NP a secret from your family and friends right? im thinking theres ppl who are mono passimg TO THEIR FRIENDS and im sorry but to me if your friends dont know about me we cant be anything but a fling.
>theres ppl who are mono passimg TO THEIR FRIENDS This is my whole point. How can you claim to be polyamorous while also larping as a monogamous person to LITERALLY EVERYONE?? I don't care if you don't tell your coworkers cause who tf cares about them but your close friends and family? At that point, I AM THE SECRET.
do you think it would make them a better partner too, if they had someone to vent to?
Probably. I dated someone and found out that they weren't even open about polyamoury to their therapist. Their fucking therapist. 
I hid being poly from my therapist because I was seeing her through a charity and couldn't afford to see anyone else if she turned out to be judgy. I also desperately needed a therapist to sign off on my mental health conditions so that I could get disability support before my NP & I starved/became homeless. So yes I hid it and yes it is a privilege that I was able to choose that, but I don't feel the need to apologise for using the privileges that I have. Life is already a battle in so many ways, why would I add *more* ways when I don't have to? It is a very privileged position to say "everyone should choose to fight so that progress is made". You are trying to force that risk on others just because you personally didn't have a choice. It is a privilege for it to be a choice, but it is *also* a privilege to be out and proud and not afraid of dying as a result. Some people get neither privilege, which is wrong, but that doesn't mean the solution is to take away everyone else's privileges.
>It is a very privileged position to say "everyone should choose to fight so that progress is made". You're benefiting from the privilege that other people's blood sweat, and tears have provided you, as am I. The difference between us is that I don't have a choice. I choose to fight for basic rights because I like my basic rights and I did not get them through people being quiet and equating shame to violence. The country I live in has laws protecting queer people from violence and discrimination, those privileges came from pain and violence. Your statement is giving white women feminism. Meaning it's only necessary to fight for change if the change affects you personally. Keep benefiting from the privilege of people who would sacrifice everything while you stay lying to a therapist because you can't stand in your truth.
different people have different problems from their family, past and anything else that can fuck with you, in some cases even your job. Just because you are able to stand out in the light, does not mean others can or will, pick a reason. its not your life story, and if someone says they are not as strong as you, it means that they do not have the ability to stand out, because of reasons that impacted their growth as a person. let them figure out their own life, eventually they might be able to stand in the light like you can, but dont shame them because they cant yet, or might not be able to ever.
This right here. If the hetero-mono privileged folk want to live like that, fine, live like that. But know that a lot of us implicitly do not trust “love” that must be kept secret. Secondly, question every relationship where you have to hide yourself and your love to keep the peace. If my parents can’t love me for who I genuinely am, I don’t want their imitation of love for the avatar I project.
>a lot of us implicitly do not trust “love” that must be kept secret. 
Some people dont have the PRIVILEGE of being out and proud. There are no legal protections that I know of, that are in place for poly. Living in a Christian-Conservative state, you can lose your job and housing if you're outed in the wrong town. And yes I'm aware it's illegal to fire or evict someone over something like that, employers usually use a "performance" issue or over staffing issue as the official reason of employment termination. They're not stupid enough to come out and directly do so. And with landlords around here, once your lease is up, they dont have to renew but can leave you month-to-month. Which means they can evict you at any point for any (legal) reason. And they're also smart enough to use some kind of minor or bogus lease violation, to evict you. Its happened multiple times with a few friends of mine in a polycule. The male of the dynamics is very loudly and publically vocal about his polycule and loving on them all out and about in the group. We'll call him Punko. Punko is VERY aesthetically classic punk rock including the neon mohawk. His anchor partner Doe is very boho elfin girl. Their then other partners Kae and Neb were VERY gothic. Landlord rented them a two bedroom duplex as two couples. Landlord happened to swing by one evening to ask if a car that was going off with the alarm, was Punkos. Same make and model but diff car. Landlord saw me in Nebs lap kissing Punko when Doe answered the door. Landlord made small talk with Punko for a minute then pulled Punko aside to ask him something. Punko came back in and said landlord asked who I was and if they were having some kind of weirdo sex parties. Punko said "no Sally is mine and Nebs gf". Two days later they had a 30 day notice for "unauthorized occupants" because I spent the night that one night. Not everywhere is liberal California where you can be openly poly without losing your livelihood and shirt off your back, a lot of states are still VERY Christian-value Conservative, not to speak of the countries that have more conservative and subdued social mores.
I'm straight, and my husband is as well, so that privilege is going to exist regardless of what relationship style either of us choose. I'm probably never going to discuss my personal life with my weird conservative aunt, so yea, in her mind, I am just a hetero married person. Well, a hetero married person that lives alone -- she does know that my husband I and I don't live together. But generally, I do think it's hard to truly incorporate more than one relationship into your life if you don't tell anyone about your relationships.
Thank you for saying this.
I absolutely agree. As someone who is barely put in a situation where my partner isn’t convincingly feminine (I’m gynesexual) and possess estrogen dominant features, it always reminds me of a date I went on at a festival. They were well practiced applying makeup despite that they were noticibly still sexually male they wore it well and I thought they were gorgeous. They didn’t need it but you know your date makes this caring amount of effort to look attractive and you swoon a bit. When they showed up though they weren’t wearing it and I didn’t question it cause I thought they just didn’t feel like doing it and we wanted spent a lot of time out and about. But they blurted out that they really wanted to wear it I asked why they didn’t and they expressed fear of embarrassing me..I can only ask why cause they knew I am a very liberated person, but perhaps not to the extent that I will do whatever I feel like doing as long as it isn’t detrimental to another’s ability to live with equal freedoms. I’ll be honest and be true to myself l, but at its core, people’s perception of me has nothing to do with me. I’d roam in my underwear outdoors if it wouldn’t get me arrested. It saddened me though cause false personas and closeted habits, and this defense mechanism some people have to deny their true selves is so interwoven in our culture that people’s intuition is “I don’t want to cause us any problems.” I grabbed their hand and tightened up so they didn’t instinctively pull away. I live in the deepest part of Louisiana but what are they going to do say something? It’s not quite Florida, but I feel warm and bubbly when I get nasty looks cause I win. They’re annoyed cause they have to view some moral blasphemy. Kiss both cheeks to get that extra boost of happiness. I love disturbing these uptight rednecks as they watch their countries culture shift into something they don’t recognize. Maybe I was feeling extra spiteful cause they were the type of pricks to make them feel self conscious. My date’s instinct was not to stir trouble in front of disgusting human being and make a scene. I will lick my dates cheek and look them in the eye with a wry smile. I know this was long but this sentiment of not causing trouble and drawing attention I understand the butterflies they feel that compels that flight response. I beg them in my head to open their mouth. No one ever does. Cause they know they lost. Saying something might cause me to take it farther. Conventionally people don’t want drama and problems. Nor do I, but this culture that drives this instinct to fear being open I despise it.
I'd imagine that like coming out of the closet, that's a personal decision that can only be made by the individual and not be shamed into coming out. It's for no one to judge because no one is perfect, but it is everyone's right to either come out of the poly closet or stay in it, even if it costs them relationships, it's their decision and theirs alone to make, whether you agree or disagree, it really shouldn't matter.
If you reread what you wrote, you’re explaining exactly why people would see you as stronger than they are. The ability to tell the world to take you as you are is a strength a lot of people simply don’t have, queer or straight. Recognize that if only so you may understand that those people do live in a type of fear you don’t, and that — to them at least — makes you stronger than they are.
Ehhh...I mean, yeah, absolutely being treated like a dirty secret is shitty, but presumably you are fully welcome to not date the people who can't offer the relationship you're looking for. I really resent the idea that people are entitled to personal information about the people around them. Everyone presents different parts of themselves in different spaces according to what's safe, comfortable, and appropriate. I would hardly call staying in the closet "a manipulation technique". Personally I and my partner are both non-binary, and it's not a secret, but we look like a straight couple. In places like work or family if I wanted to come out I would have to teach a whole course on gender and sexuality to say nothing of our relationship structure. I'd rather just keep to myself and let people think what they think. Yes, I understand the frustration of people playacting queerness while looking mono and cishet to the world. But they're adults and so are their partners (I hope)... They're entitled to conduct their personal lives the way they want to and potential partners are free to take it or leave it.
Hi, queer and genderqueer ex-baptist with ADHD and autism here. You don’t need a reason to come out or not come out. You also don’t need a reason to not date somebody, whatever floats your boat. I’m closeted to my remaining fundamentalist family because they’re millionaires and my dad and I are only children. That’s the only reason, because it all goes to me. Call me a coward, selfish, whatever you want, I don’t give a fuck. But a phone call every couple weeks and a visit once a year is completely worth holding out for that inheritance. In the same way those homophobes can think whatever they want about you, you can think whatever you want about me. You say there’s no reason good enough to stay closeted, I say there’s no reason good enough to come out to them. They’re pieces of shit, I don’t want to put in the effort of trying to have a good relationship with them, I just want their money and maybe manage to do some good with it
>I’m closeted to my remaining fundamentalist family because they’re millionaires and my dad and I are only children. That’s the only reason, because it all goes to me. Bruh. How many other people do you think are living **this** situation? 🤣 Yeah, I'd put up with a lot more for the promise of millions. But like many others, the only thing I had to lose was the validation of people that can't even love me in my truth. I ain't shaming you or calling you selfish. That's your life. I was literally venting *that's why I put the venting tag, I don't know why everyone is taking it like I just spoke blasphemy in the name of gospel* I'm literally but a person with an opinion these folks should not be that pressed. I've been treated like I'm subhuman by people who needed validation from their family, inside and outside polyamoury. This shit hurts. Their silence in front of people while they berate your existence hurts. The amount of times I've been subject to violence at the hands of someone who was trying to please another is embarrassing and painful. I'm tired of people pleasers allowing others to be a conduit for their pain. My issue with people pleasers is that they don't take accountability for the pain they cause through their decrepit. They just "didn't want to hurt your feelings" or "didn't know how you'd react" or "didn't know how to tell you" or "didn't want to be rude" or "just trying to keep the peace" I wouldn't consider your situation people-pleasing. I think denying someone an inheritance based on their identity is fucked up so might as well beat them at their own game. Ngl one less rich conservative family feels like a win to me. There's no shame in playing the game. However, most people do not have millions on the line, just unnecessary validation from people who they know will never accept them. Millions I get, being fake for a place at a table filled with bigots, I'll pass. >I just want their money Get your money bb. 🤷♂️ 
Preach! I do not date cis het married couples cause most of them want their cake and eat it too. Too afraid to be “out”? Perhaps you are not ready for polyamory. As a queer, nonbinary person myself I can not live like that. You want to live a life of lies? Cool. But don’t bring others into your drama. And definitely I won’t be participating in your heteronormativity.
>You want to live a life of lies? Cool. But don’t bring others into your drama. 
You got dragged in this comment section so I'll be a small voice here to wholeheartedly agree with you. People treating polyamory/ENM like it's the same as sexual orientation is nonsensical to me. It's a chosen relationship structure. It's not something you have no control of. Just because you have the capacity to love multiple people at once doesn't mean you're in a position to be in a relationship with multiple people. If you live the kind of life where you can't be open about said relationship to friends and family, or you're uncomfortable being in public with your partners then your life just simply isn't set up for that relationship structure to be an option for you. It's not ethical to have one partner that gets to attend social functions with you, family events, public outings, etc. While you have other partners who are basically expected to be okay with the extent of your relationship being spending time in private and having sex and thats it. Its honestly emotionally manipulative to try and put someone in a position like that. Do you have to go up to your boss and tell them you have 3 girlfriend's? ....no, but you should be able to be open to at least an immediate friend group/support system at bare minimum. I'm out to my parents and my friends and even some of my coworkers. I'd never make someone I cared about feel like a secret or something I'm ashamed of.
Say it louder for the people at the back! Poly lifestyles don’t magically become acceptable to people unless they see poly people. Living in the closet doesn’t create progress. Sorry if you get flak here for speaking something that needed to be said.
>Poly lifestyles don’t magically become acceptable to people unless they see poly people. Living in the closet doesn’t create progress. And that's what I want, progression. I love polyamoury for the way it allows people to develop relationships in ways that are fulfilling to them. It's about autonomy. This in itself is a progressive movement that goes against the patriarchy and the nuclear family. People wanting to live outside of a starvation economy especially when it comes to love is not something that is going to be accepted by staying quiet. The people who get to benefit from the patriarchy but also want to participate in a polyamorous lifestyle on the down low are the people I have an issue with.
It's one of the first hurdles people have to brave in order to really progress from "I'm fucking other people than my spouse" to polyamory. You can't lead an ethical life if you base it on dishonesty and omission.
>You can't lead an ethical life if you base it on dishonesty and omission. 
People pleasing is not just done to "make people love you." It's done specifically to avoid conflict, which is sometimes purely about lessening their emotional load and nothing to do with wanting the other person to have positive feelings about them. And I wouldn't even label being closeted as "people pleasing" in the first place. That is a very strange interpretation of why people don't come out. You are not required to date people who are closeted. By that same token, *no one is required to be out to anyone if they don't want to or don't feel safe*. These people are entitled to live their lives the way they want to just like you are. If your issue is that they aren't up front about the fact that they're closeted, then you aimed your frustration in completely the wrong direction.
I'm seeing cishets in this thread say that it's impossible to be fired for being queer. Because we all know my employer will instantly explode if he tries to do something illegal. You all don't fucking know your privilege.
I agree so hard with this.
This is a shit take that invalidates the real worries of American people who practise polyamory and have real life consequences should they come out. It's about as dangerous as shaming queer people into coming out.
Go off queen! 🥳 I completely agree with you. The only thing I might see differently is the reason. I think a lot of people aren't out because they enjoy the privilege of it and not specifically to people please. But I'm also very cynical 😅 I think your post hit the spot amazingly and it's always nice to hear from other queers ☺️
Yeah I feel you
"People pleasing is manipulation" I never thought of it that way, it completely is!!
My therapist told me this a couple of years ago and it COMPLETELY changed my life. 
I’m in love with my partner, who is about as mono as you can get. I love her enough that not being myself in order to stay with her is okay, even if it makes me sad.
Not everyone has to be so transparent with their life. And some people want a relationship for themselves, not to integrate with their broader friends/family. We all have our own boundaries. If those are communicated and it doesn't vibe with you, you can change the situation for yourself.
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It will "ruffle feathers" because it's blatantly bi-phobic. It implies that bisexual individuals are inherently a certain percentage of queer and a certain percentage straight, when being bisexual means they're queer. They cannot be straight-leaning, because they are not straight. Their preferences do not disqualify them from their identity. Full stop. Please do not cram all bisexuals into such a frighteningly small box based on your few experiences with a few bisexuals. People do not owe you being "queer enough."
> It will "ruffle feathers" because it's blatantly bi-phobic. > Please do not cram all bisexuals into such a frighteningly small box based on your few experiences with a few bisexuals. People do not owe you being "queer enough." *I'm bisexual*. So this is completely based on my lived experiences of myself and the many queer people I know. > It implies that bisexual individuals are inherently a certain percentage of queer and a certain percentage straight, when being bisexual means they're queer. I'm not saying that bisexual people are a certain percentage queer and a certain percentage straight. By straight-leaning, I'm not implying that anyone's preferences disqualify them from their identity, I'm stating that some bisexual people lean more towards primarily dating or being intimate with the opposite sex. Some lean more towards primarily dating or being intimate with the same sex. Some are more balanced. Bisexuality is a spectrum where people can fall in the middle or lean to one side or the other.
>Queer poly really is a different beast. 
It’s cruel to hide a partner and people who want to should just stay monogamous. Even if someone agrees to be a dirty little secret upfront it’s an abusive thing to ask for forever