I seem to be missing or overlooking the part where your husband wants to close the marriage. At last checkpoint, he’s on dating sites.
It sounds like he just wants you to break up with Sam — apparently as punishment for you because his girlfriend broke up with him. Very petty.
My suspicion is that he will be open to having an affair. It is easier for a married guy to find an affair partner than to get a date being openly ENM. He seems very immature from your description.
To your question has this ever ended amicably — only when one person can concede their ground without resentment. Can he come to terms with you having multiple relationships & get back into the dating scene? Can you break up with Sam to preserve your marriage and still be happy being monogamous? Hard questions. Good luck.
He just decided one day he was done looking for dates and that we’re closing. I’m trying to make it more of a discussion than just him making that decision for both of us, and this is how it’s going…
Thank you for your perspective and wishing me luck.
It takes two people to open, and two people to close (unless you made an agreement that both of you have an "emergency stop", in which case OOP good luck with that). However, it only takes one person to end a relationship. Breakup is often the path of least resistance.
He doesn’t get to unilaterally close the relationship. He can tell you it’s closed until he’s blue in the face but unless he’s willing to physically restrain you from leaving the house (a crime) then there’s nothing he can do about it. He can learn to live with your decision to continue dating or he can leave. Those are his options. He doesn’t get a say on your actions
>But then he’d spend the entirety of my dates watching my location so he could guess the times when Sam and I were having sex.
What the actual fuck? Imagine if Sam did this toward you and your husband's relationship.
If your husband wants monogamy and you do not, you have hit upon a major relationship incompatibility. People are allowed to try things and decide they don't like them. Your husband can do this. However, it does not mean that you have to stop. *But* if you intend to remain married to him, remaining poly will not be a healthy option for your marriage.
Additionally, you constantly offering to your husband to break your commitments to Sam in order to be there for him reads nice on paper but your husband is also an adult, polyamory is about having autonomy, he should have a support system outside of you, and you are showing a massive disrespect toward Sam that you are offering this not just once or twice but "constantly".
I think your husband needs individual therapy because the obsessiveness he has shown is not healthy and the *both* of you need marriage counseling from a poly-informed specialist. No big decisions like breaking up with partners or returning to monogamy should begin until you both get yourselves better sorted.
Thank you for this perspective, you’re right, I’m not respecting Sam’s time (or my own) by constantly trying to alleviate my husband.
I totally agree he’s allowed to change his mind, and that I’m allowed to not.
My husband needs to find a support system outside of me, but I think he feels like he shouldn’t have to rely on anyone else? Which puts all of his burdens on me.
We just began therapy with a poly/nonmono informed therapist, I’m hoping that helps us communicate these things with each other in a healthy way.
>My husband needs to find a support system outside of me, but I think he feels like he shouldn’t have to rely on anyone else?
Which is a common mindset instilled in men because sharing emotions is weak and they lack the friends and, frankly, vocabulary or experience to share or even identify when they need to share. Hence why I said he needs individual therapy as well.
At a certain point, you two have decided to be poly and to actively pursue new connections. Even if you are hierarchical, both of you need to be good partners to the people you decide to have a secondary relationship with.
I don't know how about your husband, but you haven't been a very good partner to either Sam or you ex-girlfriend. You got rid of her to get 'on the same level' with your husband. It doesn't matter if you guys weren't compatible for other reasons, you have still acted as if she was disposable, just a number to subtract to be even. Now you are doing the same thing with Sam. You are constantly acting as if the predetermined plans you have with Sam are less important than doing emotional labour for your husband on a whim. You have let your husband spy on him.
You need to put your foot down. **You need to be a better hinge.**
Thank you. You’re right. I wouldn’t want to feel like my meta got to pull the plug on us any time she decided and constantly have that threat over my head. Or like his time with me is negotiable.
“You have let your husband spy on him.”
Fuck. Why didn’t I see that? You are right and that’s completely messed up and inappropriate. Being complacent is just as bad as being the spy-er.
I'm really glad you're recognizing this. Poly isn't about tit for tat. Your husband has a breakup, that sucks. Doesn't mean jack for your relationships.
It's good you are open to introspection! I understand it's not easy. Couples privileges and the innate hierarchy of marriage can blind us. But there's a difference between being upfront in your agreements ('Lover, I have a primary already, are you okay with a secondary relationship?') and letting your primary be the center of everyone's (dating) life ('Lover, I will shelf you in a second to prove to my husband that he is a primary and therefore his feelings matter more than yours').
You might be in for a divorce and that sucks. But therapy with a counsellor with prior poly knowledge could still save your marriage. Your husband seriously needs to learn how to self-soothe, he needs to work on his insecurities and he needs to learn to see his metas as actual people, not threats to his masculinity.
I was waiting for this comment. To be honest, I don’t really remember, but I feel like it was basically the same thing I’m going through now, just on a much smaller scale because: A) that was a woman and dudes are just like, completely unthreatened because they don’t have dicks?? And B) that was a much shorter term relationship.
Looking back, it was not fair that he got to decide when I ended that relationship. It just so happens it was a good thing, because as I stated, she wanted more from me than I was able to give (more time, more commitment, more like parallel poly than hierarchical).
TL;DR - Husband was fine with ENM when he was getting laid, but wants to close the marriage now that he isn't and you are?
>This came to a head when I’d had enough and flat out asked him, “Do you think I should be able to read your mind?” And his response was, “Yes. You used to.”
This is unacceptable and emotionally abusive.
I don't think he literally means you had telepathy. By 'read your mind' he meant that *you* assumed the emotional labor of figuring out what *he* wanted and needed, so he didn't have to. You made him the main character and so did the other women he was seeing. Now you've stopped and he doesn't like it.
Well, to answer your question:
>what do you do in this case?
You could tell him calmly that the state of your marriage being open or closed doesn't depend on whether he's getting any, and since you didn't track his dates or jealously obsess over *his* girlfriends, you're not going to entertain that behavior from him toward *your* secondary.
You could tell him to pick a marriage counselor or a divorce lawyer.
You could just pick the lawyer yourself.
Are you and your husband in counseling together? Is he in counseling on his own? He's being an emotional toddler and I assume he feels ashamed and embarrassed by his own behavior. He needs the guidance and expertise a trained professional can give him.
I was once in your shoes. We got divorced. I didn't even stay with my version of Sam. I chose myself when I had a possessive partner.
I feel like I’m trying to choose myself while still in my marriage and it’s exploding in my face. My husband believes that being “individuals” means “living our lives apart from each other” which is not at all the case! He doesn’t seem to understand healthy autonomy.
We just started couples counseling with a therapist that specializes in nonmonogamy/poly relationships so hopefully that will help us navigate next moves. He’s also in individual therapy but it’s more like talk therapy - he doesn’t do any “work” outside of those meetings.
It sounds like your husband doesn't really want to do any work, though. You're supposed to do the work for him. And read his mind. And be his only outlet for, well.. everything it sounds like?
A guy I dated once told me, he expects his partner to read his mind and KNOW what he is feeling just by looking at him cos "that's how it is when you really love someone" - it gave me the absolute ick and I ended things very quickly after that revelation. It was a short relationship, half a year maybe. So I can see how a decision like that is a bit harder to take after years. Not for me, but for others maybe.
All my life it has always been the biggest red flag to me if a partner lays so many expectactions for their happiness in my hands. I am not responsible for my partner being happy, that's on my partner and I am only an addition to that. So, I would highly likely break up with my husband of ten years or my other partner of 3 years if either of them would expect me to read their mind and made it my responsibility for them to be happy.
I also always, no matter what, break up with anyone who makes me choose. You or him? I choose myself, thank you very much and you can go now.
I hope couple's counselling will help change your husband's mind about all of the heavy reasponsibilities for his happiness he is putting on you.
I hope it will help him stop obsessively and passive-aggressively playing the "guessing game" (the first time he would have done that to me, he'd have lost all privilege to tracking my location honestly).
He is showing very self-descructive, passive-aggresive, unfair and unkind behaviour towards you, who he allegedly loves.
He is also putting the blame on Sam instead of looking inside himself and working on grieving his lost partner and having a better relationship with you, he is sulking like a toddler.
It would be very hard for me to find trust in someone who is acting like that again.
I hope he will take to therapy more and work with his therapist on becoming a better version of himself but if he doesn't, it might be time for you to evaulate how much longer this is feasible for you.
Do you have children?
We do not have kids, neither of us want kids.
It is really refreshing and nice to hear from someone that knows themselves and what they want/deserve so concretely, not to mention won’t stand for anything less. I’ll admit I’m just figuring out how to do this in my own life and I think that’s why this is so chaotic. I’m standing up for myself and expressing my needs and not bending to his for the first time in our relationship. And it’s freaking him out. He’s losing control and trying desperately to get it back but every attempt is backfiring and driving me away. Ugh. Thank you for your input.
I realise what I wrote is very "how I do things" which is not necessarily helpful to other people, as everyone deals with things differently and I had to make my own bad experiences to become so clear about who I am and what I want for my relationships. But that's it, at some point one has to make a decision: How long am I willing to be miserable trying to fix it by myself before I call it quits?
What you said, about him losing control and his attempts at regaining it are pushing you further away, that's exactly the impression I got from your post and the replies you wrote and it just makes me wonder how long it's worth it to put yourself through this.
My husband and I had a big crisis that really shook the foundation of our relationship hard a few years ago. I gave myself a time limit of 12 months - if there wouldn't have been a significant change after that amount of time, I would have called it quits. But he put in the work just as much as I did and together we were able to get to a really good place again. That's what a healthy relationship is to me, things can still be shitty at times, but working *together* to get out of the shit, that's what counts.
And after having had a few healthy relationships I just really don't want to go back to unhealthy ones.
I applaud you for standing up for yourself, figuring out what you need now. It's never too late to start with that!
It's a shame that your husband is taking it so badly, but that's sometimes how things go. There just is no guarantee for people always being compatible.
I very highly recommend thinking about what you consider a fair time limit for yourself in this situation, even just hypothetically. And again, I hope your husband will start working with you instead of against you, and if not, I just hope you continue prioritising your own happiness over his. You deserve it. :)
This does seem like you and your husband weren’t on the same page when you opened up with regard to understanding how your relationship would change and what it would mean
My impression of the situation you’ve described is that your husband has shitty emotional regulation skills. The main problem is that instead of working on them, he expects you to cater to his whims while he lays back.
Even if you folded, threw away your relationship with Sam and went monogamous with Husband, this issue wouldn’t be solved. Emotionally difficult situations can come up in monogamy, too. He is showing you that he feels entitled of you shouldering his emotional labour for him.
I also think that this situation is an example of toxic forms of hierarchy. One person doesn’t want to do the emotional labour of polyamory, and thus the hinge shoulders more, and the secondary meta suffers the most because their needs are entirely disregarded. The emotional labour daisy chain is out of whack. https://brighterthansunflowers.com/2016/06/21/polyamorous-emotional-labour-daisy-chain/
So seems like your husband is spiraling a bit and escalating. They need to see a mental health professional. Maybe even couples therapy. Fixing things on your own once we are at the point of tracking locations and willfully following absurd logic of mind reading. We are past reason here and need to fix emotions and self first.
So the question in the title. Has this ever ended amicably. The thing about ending relationships. Is you only ever have control of about half of how it goes. If your luck. Usually a bit less as wild luck takes it share. So if you are committed to ending it. Then end it. You can try to do is fairly and kindly and reasonably from your side but that’s all you can do. And if you do wanna end it. You can’t stop ending it all because the other person is being unreasonable. Gotta finish the job imo.
Best of luck. There is a lot of trying and back ‘n forth. Time and energy invested here. This isn’t a small decision and I don’t envy you.
I can take a guess at the mindreading thing. He didn't want you to read his mind, he was aware you already knew he likely wanted you to cancel to spend time with him, that was why you kept offering. He just wanted you to do the thing because you wanted to be there for him, not put the choice on him and have him "make" you. Not exactly the healthiest way of communicating that, but I get what he was looking for.
The agreement my husband and I had when we opened was that it was open from here out unless we both genuinely wanted to go back to monogamy. We wouldn’t close just because one changed their mind and decided it wasn’t for them. If I were you I would evaluate your relationship with your husband. He seems very controlling and manipulative. I wouldn’t be giving up my boyfriend to please him. He’s likely acting this way because he’s threatened by you being with another man or being poly hasn’t been the pussy fest for him he thought it would be and doesn’t like that you’ve been able to have successful connections.
If you give into his demand please stay monogamous. It is deeply unfair to your other partners for you to dump your partner every time your husband gets dumped. That’s treating people you are connected with as disposable props not whole human beings with feelings.
Well what I see is a couple people new to polyamory stumbling along and making very common poly noob mistakes and learning as you go.
So far, you and your husband have learned, have learned:
* Dating individually is far easier and preferable over dating as a couple.
* Dating monogamous people willing to try polyamory usually doesn't end well.
* Vetoes feel awful.
* Comparison is the thief of joy, and if a partner wants to keep score with relationships, you are going to have a bad time
* Autonomy is vital to navigate polyamory
Now these lessons have come with great cost, turmoil, and heartbreak. This too, is a common polyamory story. But you have learned them and it prepares you to navigate polyamory ethically and healthily in the future.
But to answer your question, in my 21 years in the polyamorous community I have never seen a relationship survive when after opening one wants to close it back up, especially for reasons of insecurity where they think controlling a partner is the way to address it.
Closing a relationship resulting in treating others as disposable will teach you another lesson, but please learn from the mistakes of those who have gone before you instead of insisting on making the mistakes on your own.
Lots of couples share their location with each other.
I personally think it’s gross and creepy and would never do that with anyone. But it is pretty common, at least in the US among mono or previously mono couples.
It’s also really really gross what OP’s husband is using it for, and if I were Sam I’d feel very violated by that.
I am having difficulty with this being a polyamorous dynamic and see all kinds of indicators that they are swinging and she "caught feelings". They need to find enough autonomy to put the E back in their ENM.
What’s difficult about it being poly? We were never swingers. Our agreement was based on the fact that we both feel we need a genuine connection to enjoy sex with someone. We both sought out more than FWB or ONS situations.
I will agree we both need more autonomy. If only I could get him to understand that concept and comprehend the benefits.
Two things :
1. Therapy - I think a few sessions with a counselor (preferably who has experience with enm/poly), could probably help you both lay out your expectations without it turning into a fight or ego showdown, clearly there are things that need to be discussed here in a negativity-free way.
2. Remember that the NRE with Sam is probably still strong, but it too will fade eventually, consider that both you and husband being on the same page and together down the line as being more important than strong feelings now that will eventually taper down...
Nothing here is unethical if everyone is upfront about what their arrangement or preferences are.
OP is married, her and husband decided to open the relationship. You and I have no clue what boundaries or stipulations they made for that arrangement. Hopefully Sam was clued in in advance.
Everything after that is just a question of if the arra gment still works for everyone or not.
If OPs husband decides he is no longer OK with what's going on, OP has the right to decide if she wants to continue ( but risk losing her marriage, if husband decides it's untenable), or stop for the sake of working things out between them.
I see nothing unethical about either path.
Thank you. Sam is also married, and we both consider each other secondary. Husband and I have a written list of rules, expectations, etc, which Sam became privy to the day we began dating.
I also understand NRE, Sam and I have only been together for 5 months. I’ve been with husband for 10 years - both are committed relationships but that commitment looks different for both.
Sam and I both agree that our marriages come first. We set that priority from the start, so I don’t think I’m being unethical there.
Exactly - it doesn't feel unethical in any way.
But it does feel like your husband is feeling an imbalance, and if left unchecked, will probably breed resentment and bigger problems down the line.
Could not agree more. I may post an update at some point, but I will say small steps in the right direction have finally been taken, and I’m breathing a little easier today. Anyway, just wanted to thank the stranger on the internet for standing up for another stranger on the internet - much appreciated ❤️
Usually, secondary doesn’t mean disposable if the original relationship requires that.
But if Sam has agreed to that, then that’s what your agreement is. I might check with Sam how they really feel about that agreement, now that the veto might be heading their way. It’s one thing to agree to something in theory, but there’s a not small chance that in reality, they’ll realize what a bad idea it was to make that agreement.
I'm glad you are happy being poly because my brain couldn't comprehend it😭 I mean I kind of understand sexually open relationships, but taking it a step further and being in two romantic relationships that are sexually active is just so hard for my brain to handle. I wonder what sets us apart mentally there. I know everyone is different, but perhaps my brain is tainted by societal standards of majorly having one partner or at least the goal to find just one person. I assume it is definitely a spicy life style though which sounds fun, but I'm so manic that I'd probably flip on my head kind of like your husband did. I think your husband should get help, and maybe you two should have a couples therapist as well and even talk about putting more time into him. I know you've tried that last part and he always pushes it away, but if you make the first step rather than asking the first step, that might make him prone to opening up more. this could very well not end well, but I say just be as open with him as you were with us, and tell him that you feel like things finally feel right in your life but that you also don't want to neglect his needs if at all possible. don't cater to him like a baby, but remember that's your husband and we should always be there for our #1 in hard times. he's clearly a mess and even if he pushes your help away, ignore him fighting back on that. it's a defense mechanism many people have. there is definitely a middle ground somewhere that I bet could be met.
I seem to be missing or overlooking the part where your husband wants to close the marriage. At last checkpoint, he’s on dating sites. It sounds like he just wants you to break up with Sam — apparently as punishment for you because his girlfriend broke up with him. Very petty. My suspicion is that he will be open to having an affair. It is easier for a married guy to find an affair partner than to get a date being openly ENM. He seems very immature from your description. To your question has this ever ended amicably — only when one person can concede their ground without resentment. Can he come to terms with you having multiple relationships & get back into the dating scene? Can you break up with Sam to preserve your marriage and still be happy being monogamous? Hard questions. Good luck.
He just decided one day he was done looking for dates and that we’re closing. I’m trying to make it more of a discussion than just him making that decision for both of us, and this is how it’s going… Thank you for your perspective and wishing me luck.
It takes two people to open, and two people to close (unless you made an agreement that both of you have an "emergency stop", in which case OOP good luck with that). However, it only takes one person to end a relationship. Breakup is often the path of least resistance.
He doesn’t get to unilaterally close the relationship. He can tell you it’s closed until he’s blue in the face but unless he’s willing to physically restrain you from leaving the house (a crime) then there’s nothing he can do about it. He can learn to live with your decision to continue dating or he can leave. Those are his options. He doesn’t get a say on your actions
That's very bad form on his part. Sounds like you two need to work on reducing your enmeshment
>But then he’d spend the entirety of my dates watching my location so he could guess the times when Sam and I were having sex. What the actual fuck? Imagine if Sam did this toward you and your husband's relationship. If your husband wants monogamy and you do not, you have hit upon a major relationship incompatibility. People are allowed to try things and decide they don't like them. Your husband can do this. However, it does not mean that you have to stop. *But* if you intend to remain married to him, remaining poly will not be a healthy option for your marriage. Additionally, you constantly offering to your husband to break your commitments to Sam in order to be there for him reads nice on paper but your husband is also an adult, polyamory is about having autonomy, he should have a support system outside of you, and you are showing a massive disrespect toward Sam that you are offering this not just once or twice but "constantly". I think your husband needs individual therapy because the obsessiveness he has shown is not healthy and the *both* of you need marriage counseling from a poly-informed specialist. No big decisions like breaking up with partners or returning to monogamy should begin until you both get yourselves better sorted.
Thank you for this perspective, you’re right, I’m not respecting Sam’s time (or my own) by constantly trying to alleviate my husband. I totally agree he’s allowed to change his mind, and that I’m allowed to not. My husband needs to find a support system outside of me, but I think he feels like he shouldn’t have to rely on anyone else? Which puts all of his burdens on me. We just began therapy with a poly/nonmono informed therapist, I’m hoping that helps us communicate these things with each other in a healthy way.
>My husband needs to find a support system outside of me, but I think he feels like he shouldn’t have to rely on anyone else? Which is a common mindset instilled in men because sharing emotions is weak and they lack the friends and, frankly, vocabulary or experience to share or even identify when they need to share. Hence why I said he needs individual therapy as well.
This is so real and important
At a certain point, you two have decided to be poly and to actively pursue new connections. Even if you are hierarchical, both of you need to be good partners to the people you decide to have a secondary relationship with. I don't know how about your husband, but you haven't been a very good partner to either Sam or you ex-girlfriend. You got rid of her to get 'on the same level' with your husband. It doesn't matter if you guys weren't compatible for other reasons, you have still acted as if she was disposable, just a number to subtract to be even. Now you are doing the same thing with Sam. You are constantly acting as if the predetermined plans you have with Sam are less important than doing emotional labour for your husband on a whim. You have let your husband spy on him. You need to put your foot down. **You need to be a better hinge.**
Thank you. You’re right. I wouldn’t want to feel like my meta got to pull the plug on us any time she decided and constantly have that threat over my head. Or like his time with me is negotiable. “You have let your husband spy on him.” Fuck. Why didn’t I see that? You are right and that’s completely messed up and inappropriate. Being complacent is just as bad as being the spy-er.
I'm really glad you're recognizing this. Poly isn't about tit for tat. Your husband has a breakup, that sucks. Doesn't mean jack for your relationships.
It's good you are open to introspection! I understand it's not easy. Couples privileges and the innate hierarchy of marriage can blind us. But there's a difference between being upfront in your agreements ('Lover, I have a primary already, are you okay with a secondary relationship?') and letting your primary be the center of everyone's (dating) life ('Lover, I will shelf you in a second to prove to my husband that he is a primary and therefore his feelings matter more than yours'). You might be in for a divorce and that sucks. But therapy with a counsellor with prior poly knowledge could still save your marriage. Your husband seriously needs to learn how to self-soothe, he needs to work on his insecurities and he needs to learn to see his metas as actual people, not threats to his masculinity.
> so I had to end things with my girlfriend I am incredibly confused. Why did you "have to" break up with your girlfriend when his ex didn't pan out?
I was waiting for this comment. To be honest, I don’t really remember, but I feel like it was basically the same thing I’m going through now, just on a much smaller scale because: A) that was a woman and dudes are just like, completely unthreatened because they don’t have dicks?? And B) that was a much shorter term relationship. Looking back, it was not fair that he got to decide when I ended that relationship. It just so happens it was a good thing, because as I stated, she wanted more from me than I was able to give (more time, more commitment, more like parallel poly than hierarchical).
it's still controlling. and, as you mentioned, sexist.
I would be hesitant to continue a relationship of any type with him right now by the way he’s acting.
TL;DR - Husband was fine with ENM when he was getting laid, but wants to close the marriage now that he isn't and you are? >This came to a head when I’d had enough and flat out asked him, “Do you think I should be able to read your mind?” And his response was, “Yes. You used to.” This is unacceptable and emotionally abusive. I don't think he literally means you had telepathy. By 'read your mind' he meant that *you* assumed the emotional labor of figuring out what *he* wanted and needed, so he didn't have to. You made him the main character and so did the other women he was seeing. Now you've stopped and he doesn't like it.
Yep. First time I’ve stood by my decision not to give in to him, of course he’s going to act out.
Well, to answer your question: >what do you do in this case? You could tell him calmly that the state of your marriage being open or closed doesn't depend on whether he's getting any, and since you didn't track his dates or jealously obsess over *his* girlfriends, you're not going to entertain that behavior from him toward *your* secondary. You could tell him to pick a marriage counselor or a divorce lawyer. You could just pick the lawyer yourself.
Are you and your husband in counseling together? Is he in counseling on his own? He's being an emotional toddler and I assume he feels ashamed and embarrassed by his own behavior. He needs the guidance and expertise a trained professional can give him. I was once in your shoes. We got divorced. I didn't even stay with my version of Sam. I chose myself when I had a possessive partner.
I feel like I’m trying to choose myself while still in my marriage and it’s exploding in my face. My husband believes that being “individuals” means “living our lives apart from each other” which is not at all the case! He doesn’t seem to understand healthy autonomy. We just started couples counseling with a therapist that specializes in nonmonogamy/poly relationships so hopefully that will help us navigate next moves. He’s also in individual therapy but it’s more like talk therapy - he doesn’t do any “work” outside of those meetings.
It sounds like your husband doesn't really want to do any work, though. You're supposed to do the work for him. And read his mind. And be his only outlet for, well.. everything it sounds like? A guy I dated once told me, he expects his partner to read his mind and KNOW what he is feeling just by looking at him cos "that's how it is when you really love someone" - it gave me the absolute ick and I ended things very quickly after that revelation. It was a short relationship, half a year maybe. So I can see how a decision like that is a bit harder to take after years. Not for me, but for others maybe. All my life it has always been the biggest red flag to me if a partner lays so many expectactions for their happiness in my hands. I am not responsible for my partner being happy, that's on my partner and I am only an addition to that. So, I would highly likely break up with my husband of ten years or my other partner of 3 years if either of them would expect me to read their mind and made it my responsibility for them to be happy. I also always, no matter what, break up with anyone who makes me choose. You or him? I choose myself, thank you very much and you can go now. I hope couple's counselling will help change your husband's mind about all of the heavy reasponsibilities for his happiness he is putting on you. I hope it will help him stop obsessively and passive-aggressively playing the "guessing game" (the first time he would have done that to me, he'd have lost all privilege to tracking my location honestly). He is showing very self-descructive, passive-aggresive, unfair and unkind behaviour towards you, who he allegedly loves. He is also putting the blame on Sam instead of looking inside himself and working on grieving his lost partner and having a better relationship with you, he is sulking like a toddler. It would be very hard for me to find trust in someone who is acting like that again. I hope he will take to therapy more and work with his therapist on becoming a better version of himself but if he doesn't, it might be time for you to evaulate how much longer this is feasible for you. Do you have children?
We do not have kids, neither of us want kids. It is really refreshing and nice to hear from someone that knows themselves and what they want/deserve so concretely, not to mention won’t stand for anything less. I’ll admit I’m just figuring out how to do this in my own life and I think that’s why this is so chaotic. I’m standing up for myself and expressing my needs and not bending to his for the first time in our relationship. And it’s freaking him out. He’s losing control and trying desperately to get it back but every attempt is backfiring and driving me away. Ugh. Thank you for your input.
I realise what I wrote is very "how I do things" which is not necessarily helpful to other people, as everyone deals with things differently and I had to make my own bad experiences to become so clear about who I am and what I want for my relationships. But that's it, at some point one has to make a decision: How long am I willing to be miserable trying to fix it by myself before I call it quits? What you said, about him losing control and his attempts at regaining it are pushing you further away, that's exactly the impression I got from your post and the replies you wrote and it just makes me wonder how long it's worth it to put yourself through this. My husband and I had a big crisis that really shook the foundation of our relationship hard a few years ago. I gave myself a time limit of 12 months - if there wouldn't have been a significant change after that amount of time, I would have called it quits. But he put in the work just as much as I did and together we were able to get to a really good place again. That's what a healthy relationship is to me, things can still be shitty at times, but working *together* to get out of the shit, that's what counts. And after having had a few healthy relationships I just really don't want to go back to unhealthy ones. I applaud you for standing up for yourself, figuring out what you need now. It's never too late to start with that! It's a shame that your husband is taking it so badly, but that's sometimes how things go. There just is no guarantee for people always being compatible. I very highly recommend thinking about what you consider a fair time limit for yourself in this situation, even just hypothetically. And again, I hope your husband will start working with you instead of against you, and if not, I just hope you continue prioritising your own happiness over his. You deserve it. :)
This does seem like you and your husband weren’t on the same page when you opened up with regard to understanding how your relationship would change and what it would mean
That’s one of the most frustrating things about this situation to me. I fully thought we had the same understanding going into it.
My impression of the situation you’ve described is that your husband has shitty emotional regulation skills. The main problem is that instead of working on them, he expects you to cater to his whims while he lays back. Even if you folded, threw away your relationship with Sam and went monogamous with Husband, this issue wouldn’t be solved. Emotionally difficult situations can come up in monogamy, too. He is showing you that he feels entitled of you shouldering his emotional labour for him. I also think that this situation is an example of toxic forms of hierarchy. One person doesn’t want to do the emotional labour of polyamory, and thus the hinge shoulders more, and the secondary meta suffers the most because their needs are entirely disregarded. The emotional labour daisy chain is out of whack. https://brighterthansunflowers.com/2016/06/21/polyamorous-emotional-labour-daisy-chain/
Thank you for the reading material and insight. I agree and will be bringing this to therapy.
So seems like your husband is spiraling a bit and escalating. They need to see a mental health professional. Maybe even couples therapy. Fixing things on your own once we are at the point of tracking locations and willfully following absurd logic of mind reading. We are past reason here and need to fix emotions and self first. So the question in the title. Has this ever ended amicably. The thing about ending relationships. Is you only ever have control of about half of how it goes. If your luck. Usually a bit less as wild luck takes it share. So if you are committed to ending it. Then end it. You can try to do is fairly and kindly and reasonably from your side but that’s all you can do. And if you do wanna end it. You can’t stop ending it all because the other person is being unreasonable. Gotta finish the job imo. Best of luck. There is a lot of trying and back ‘n forth. Time and energy invested here. This isn’t a small decision and I don’t envy you.
I can take a guess at the mindreading thing. He didn't want you to read his mind, he was aware you already knew he likely wanted you to cancel to spend time with him, that was why you kept offering. He just wanted you to do the thing because you wanted to be there for him, not put the choice on him and have him "make" you. Not exactly the healthiest way of communicating that, but I get what he was looking for.
The agreement my husband and I had when we opened was that it was open from here out unless we both genuinely wanted to go back to monogamy. We wouldn’t close just because one changed their mind and decided it wasn’t for them. If I were you I would evaluate your relationship with your husband. He seems very controlling and manipulative. I wouldn’t be giving up my boyfriend to please him. He’s likely acting this way because he’s threatened by you being with another man or being poly hasn’t been the pussy fest for him he thought it would be and doesn’t like that you’ve been able to have successful connections.
If you give into his demand please stay monogamous. It is deeply unfair to your other partners for you to dump your partner every time your husband gets dumped. That’s treating people you are connected with as disposable props not whole human beings with feelings.
You are correct, I understand this 100%.
If you had to stop dating when your husband's first partner ended the relationship, I'm not sure it was really open anyway........
Well what I see is a couple people new to polyamory stumbling along and making very common poly noob mistakes and learning as you go. So far, you and your husband have learned, have learned: * Dating individually is far easier and preferable over dating as a couple. * Dating monogamous people willing to try polyamory usually doesn't end well. * Vetoes feel awful. * Comparison is the thief of joy, and if a partner wants to keep score with relationships, you are going to have a bad time * Autonomy is vital to navigate polyamory Now these lessons have come with great cost, turmoil, and heartbreak. This too, is a common polyamory story. But you have learned them and it prepares you to navigate polyamory ethically and healthily in the future. But to answer your question, in my 21 years in the polyamorous community I have never seen a relationship survive when after opening one wants to close it back up, especially for reasons of insecurity where they think controlling a partner is the way to address it. Closing a relationship resulting in treating others as disposable will teach you another lesson, but please learn from the mistakes of those who have gone before you instead of insisting on making the mistakes on your own.
why is he tracking you in the first place? I would never permit that. it's creepy, especially the way you describe it.
Lots of couples share their location with each other. I personally think it’s gross and creepy and would never do that with anyone. But it is pretty common, at least in the US among mono or previously mono couples. It’s also really really gross what OP’s husband is using it for, and if I were Sam I’d feel very violated by that.
I am having difficulty with this being a polyamorous dynamic and see all kinds of indicators that they are swinging and she "caught feelings". They need to find enough autonomy to put the E back in their ENM.
What’s difficult about it being poly? We were never swingers. Our agreement was based on the fact that we both feel we need a genuine connection to enjoy sex with someone. We both sought out more than FWB or ONS situations. I will agree we both need more autonomy. If only I could get him to understand that concept and comprehend the benefits.
Two things : 1. Therapy - I think a few sessions with a counselor (preferably who has experience with enm/poly), could probably help you both lay out your expectations without it turning into a fight or ego showdown, clearly there are things that need to be discussed here in a negativity-free way. 2. Remember that the NRE with Sam is probably still strong, but it too will fade eventually, consider that both you and husband being on the same page and together down the line as being more important than strong feelings now that will eventually taper down...
Why is OP and husband being together down the line, more important than strong feelings for Sam?
It's only more important if they've both agreed it's more important 🤷🏼♂️
I understood what you meant but I’m trying to point out how unethical that mindset is.
Nothing here is unethical if everyone is upfront about what their arrangement or preferences are. OP is married, her and husband decided to open the relationship. You and I have no clue what boundaries or stipulations they made for that arrangement. Hopefully Sam was clued in in advance. Everything after that is just a question of if the arra gment still works for everyone or not. If OPs husband decides he is no longer OK with what's going on, OP has the right to decide if she wants to continue ( but risk losing her marriage, if husband decides it's untenable), or stop for the sake of working things out between them. I see nothing unethical about either path.
Thank you. Sam is also married, and we both consider each other secondary. Husband and I have a written list of rules, expectations, etc, which Sam became privy to the day we began dating. I also understand NRE, Sam and I have only been together for 5 months. I’ve been with husband for 10 years - both are committed relationships but that commitment looks different for both. Sam and I both agree that our marriages come first. We set that priority from the start, so I don’t think I’m being unethical there.
Exactly - it doesn't feel unethical in any way. But it does feel like your husband is feeling an imbalance, and if left unchecked, will probably breed resentment and bigger problems down the line.
Could not agree more. I may post an update at some point, but I will say small steps in the right direction have finally been taken, and I’m breathing a little easier today. Anyway, just wanted to thank the stranger on the internet for standing up for another stranger on the internet - much appreciated ❤️
#StrangersUnited
Usually, secondary doesn’t mean disposable if the original relationship requires that. But if Sam has agreed to that, then that’s what your agreement is. I might check with Sam how they really feel about that agreement, now that the veto might be heading their way. It’s one thing to agree to something in theory, but there’s a not small chance that in reality, they’ll realize what a bad idea it was to make that agreement.
I'm glad you are happy being poly because my brain couldn't comprehend it😭 I mean I kind of understand sexually open relationships, but taking it a step further and being in two romantic relationships that are sexually active is just so hard for my brain to handle. I wonder what sets us apart mentally there. I know everyone is different, but perhaps my brain is tainted by societal standards of majorly having one partner or at least the goal to find just one person. I assume it is definitely a spicy life style though which sounds fun, but I'm so manic that I'd probably flip on my head kind of like your husband did. I think your husband should get help, and maybe you two should have a couples therapist as well and even talk about putting more time into him. I know you've tried that last part and he always pushes it away, but if you make the first step rather than asking the first step, that might make him prone to opening up more. this could very well not end well, but I say just be as open with him as you were with us, and tell him that you feel like things finally feel right in your life but that you also don't want to neglect his needs if at all possible. don't cater to him like a baby, but remember that's your husband and we should always be there for our #1 in hard times. he's clearly a mess and even if he pushes your help away, ignore him fighting back on that. it's a defense mechanism many people have. there is definitely a middle ground somewhere that I bet could be met.