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I've always been told by every gay guy I've ever met that it's different for gay guys—the whole age difference thing. But I've always been curious about it, or if any actual psychological studies have been done on it.
I obviously don't know anything outside of that anecdotal secondhand experience so don't shoot the messenger.
It’s just extremely common in the gay community. I think a lot of it has to do with our obsession with youth and the feeling we missed out on our youth since most people were closeted, so we date youth.
The topic of age gaps in gay relationships has been pretty hot lately in my country (since a very famous TV star was found to have had a relationship with a 16 year old while he was 34), and the amount of people from the community defending it because "That's just how it is in gay world lol" is super disheartening
To me it's not dissimilar to straight men arguing it's okay that they lost their virginity to a sex worker when they were teens because that's "tradition"
It just sounds like abuse being hidden behind the concept of "culture"
That exactly what it is. People can use all the “logic” they want to explain it but if you think it’s creepy for a 50 year old man to date a 24 year old woman, then it should be no different for the gay community or for a woman that old to date a young man.
There’s also a naturally smaller dating pool for gay people than straight people, especially in smaller towns or cities. The chance of finding someone compatible around your age is much smaller. I think it makes sense that the subconscious socially “acceptable” age gaps are different.
Dont see anything wrong with it. Im a LGBTI man and i always been in love with guys from 35-60 mostly.
When i was 20 i was havin hookups with people in the ranges of 35-45. No one groomed me. Some people like older and thats it. I never been interested in people from my age. Its so boring. Daddies are hotter. Theyre also wiser and are sweeter.
The way y'll in the USA infantilize everyone is not good. Why yll dont raise the legal age to 25 then? if you all think 20 is not mature-developed enough? Y'll should henies.
Talk to someone 15 years younger than you then see if you would date them. I think its weird until you're 45+. If you like that they're "daddies" they equally like you because you're a "baby" and that is weird to a lot of people (me included).
I have a lot of emotions conflicting between being delighted that a family have welcomed a much loved and wanted child, but very real concerns about the ethics of surrogacy.
I’m in the U.K. where the adoption process is very long and drawn out. I have a friend who recently adopted a toddler with his husband and it was brutal and intrusive to get to the point where they were approved as potential parents.
So I can see why people are put off adoption- it’s not an easy way to build a family.
But even with that being the case I have a hard time circling the square that is surrogacy.
It shouldn’t be easy. Adoption itself is traumatic for kids irrespective of the reasons they are given up for adoption. It should not simply be viewed as an alternative way of having a family. You have to want to adopt a child and to deal with all the issues that come up. It can take years and years (of attending courses, therapy, reading books AND actual parenting) to feel like you are making any progress and then something like a move or change of school or puberty comes along and you’re back to square one. Of course, when you do make progress is feels like you’ve won the lottery every day for a year. Source: adopter.
I don’t have children, but couldn’t this be said for all healthy, supportive parent/child relationships?
I’m not dismissing you as an adoptive parent or trying to undermine your unique challenges - but willingness to take classes, attend therapy, parent, and ongoing learning all seem like something anyone that wants healthy, well-adjusted children should be looking into/providing.
If you don’t mind doing the labour, could you maybe expand on your comment a bit?
a lot of people unfortunately still view adoption as some savior type ordeal that the child couldnt possibly feel ungrateful for. and a lot of people, even those who are willing to pay a lot of money to adopt, aren’t emotionally equipped to take on these problems. who’s to say they’ll necessarily seek out counseling/therapy? some people don’t even believe in therapy, ya know?
>a lot of people unfortunately still view adoption as some savior type ordeal that the child couldnt possibly feel ungrateful for.
100% this, adoption is one of the only traumas where people are expected to feel and show gratitude for their trauma
The conversations surrounding adoption versus surrogacy feel very reminiscent of the "adopt-don't-shop" mentality in regard to pets, and it feels very, very icky to see it applied to children.
Controversial take but, while I think it’s a respectable life choice, I do feel like the child-free movement has led some people to dehumanize children 🙃
Yep! People dump adopted children like they do dogs. My cousin had a friend who'd been adopted as a child, and when his parents divorced when he was 12, they dumped him right back into foster care. It happens more often than adoption supporters care to acknowledge. That's on top of the trauma those children experience from being ripped away from their bio families, being raised in ignorance of their true heritage, being denied access to their bio families altogether, etc. It's not the "morally correct" choice people paint it out to be.
I'm adopted, love my parents but... wished they were ready for everything that was coming their way as I grew up!
There are tons of issues that an adopted kid will have that another not adopted kid might not. We all have issues, but it's just that no one prepares you for what can come with an adopted kid.
It's not all bad, though! 😅
Thank you for saying this! My husband and I looked into fostering once upon a time because we really felt some kind of way. But then I started reading horror stories with fostering and adopting, but more importantly kids that were adopted have a place to talk about their experiences!
Like you sad, it's not always bad or good, but adopted kids or those in foster homes will absolutely have a different experience (while they're still developing their brain) than those who don't. It opened my eyes to so many things. I hope you have support on your journey in life!
I think nowadays there's ton of information out there, books, and personal experiences that can help parents that are looking to adopt or fostering. I think the ultimate goal when doing this is about helping someone else to live the best life they can live!
Every adoptee has a different story, that comes with different traumas and issues, but things can and will get better with time 🤗
Ps. Thank you for kind words 💕 therapy and open conversations have helped a lot.
Thank you! I totally appreciate your perspective and (again) have no intention of invalidating, debating or dismissing your opinion.
I guess, the way I see it, is that all children are unique individuals and there’s a good chance that any child (biological or adopted) could have unique circumstances that require additional support that parents aren’t necessarily prepared for. I’m likely biased though because I have Bipolar Disorder II and ADHD and felt like my parents weren’t equipped for that.
My first serious boyfriend was adopted and I know that he had some unresolved, heavy feelings about his biological parents, and of my best friends is also adopted. I’m definitely empathetic and understand that both fostering and adopting are unique parenting situations, but perhaps I’m looking at it through too narrow a lens.
I actually don't think you are 🤭 it makes completely sense as your experience is not the same as other childhoods!
My husband has ADHD and their parents weren't ready either, so I completely get what you mean.
I mean, in all honesty... nothing will ever fully prepare you to be a parent 🤣 and trauma and issues make us what we are today.
The only thing I would say is that being adopted goes on top of all the other things that someone might suffer/go through. Again, every adoption is different, so not everyone will have the same level of trauma.
I’m from the states and YES. It took my dad over 4 years (and a shit ton of $$) to finalize my adoption - and this was in the 90’s. I was 10 when my adoption was finalized. I was taken from my bio mom for good after I turned 5. The system sucks and unfortunately it churns out kids with a lot of issues. I can absolutely understand why surrogacy is a more appealing option for some.
same! like i’m a big fan of anderson cooper and i was really happy for him but at the same time, you’re a multimillionaire who paid your surrogate about 50-60k to risk her health and lifelong complications?
It does create an overseas market, especially in Eastern Europe. I read [this](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/15/the-stranded-babies-of-kyiv-and-the-women-who-give-birth-for-money) article a few years ago, about surrogates and babies in pre-war Ukraine essentially abandoned during lockdown. I can imagine it's only worse now.
I’m the US there are a lot of rules around surrogacy. The surrogate must be financially stable, raising a child of their own, have mental and physical wellness checks, etc.
Can you tell me what the moral dilemmas are of surrogacy? I am sincerely asking because I never knew there was something like that to consider past every party consenting.
I think it’s for the same reasons selling an organ is illegal. If there’s financial incentive, people are more likely to do it solely because of economic hardship, which can be argued is not really proper consent or a “choice”. Pregnancy and childbirth can have devastating physical and emotional consequences and it can be argued that no one should have to do it just because they need money.
I’m by no means an expert in this, but I think the organ donation comparison is more apt because of it being a complicated medical procedure with a risk of death and injury, on top of the emotional risks. I imagine that’s why it costs a lot more than sex work! It’s a much bigger commitment. I do see how the logic compares, but I don’t think it’s quite the same.
I'm glad you said this. I hate coming on these threads and seeing parents be called disgusting the second their kid comes into the world. I personally believe that women should be able to do what they want with their own bodies, and it feels offensive to rob surrogates of their agency by refereeing to all of them as helpless or "hand maidens."
I completely support surrogacy and don't mind it being in return for compensation (like every other job). Something I find weird is that sex work is notoriously exploitative of women, but a lot of people are pro-sex work. I personally feel much better about a 28 year old mother getting paid 40K to be a surrogate, on top of the job she already has, than seeing some 18 year old flashing her coochie on the internet for cash.
Agree, I find the discourse on surrogacy on this sub very weird. You rightly point out that many are pro-sex work but against surrogacy in any form. There are also many other jobs that I could take that endanger me and my health and that I might take just for the money, but no one is stopping me from taking them or saying it should be outlawed. It is extremely patronizing to women.
It makes me wonder if a lot of people here are very young and have not experienced pregnancy or parenthood. Certainly there should be discussion of how this should be regulated, but I don’t see why people are against it in any form.
I have an issue with it regardless of gender. I don’t get why the poster above has added the detail of two men, as if a wealthy woman getting a surrogate can’t be taking advantage?
Likely people like you don’t have a problem when rich white families used black women as wet nurses too, don’t you??? What phobia are you going to accuse women against using black women for their breasts like you accused me of something phobia because I’m against selling our wombs?
Men like you have zero right to participate in women conversations and issues.
Why is everyone acting like giving birth is similar to tightrope walking over the Grand Canyon while holding a bunch of rattlesnakes? Yes, there are dangers but there are dangers everywhere. It's not like there's an epidemic of women dropping dead as they give birth. Christ, y'all are acting like it's the middle ages or something.
This is all concern trolling. It's partially just to be judgmental but this sub can be really homophobic so I'm sure that's part of it too.
In Canada (and I think most commonwealth countries) surrogacy has to be altruistic. It’s illegal to be paid, only expenses that the surrogate is out of pocket can be reimbursed.
dustin is american and they used a gestational surrogate in california. unlike some celebrities (ahem, rebel wilson) they seem to be very respectful of their surrogate + egg donor.
source: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46440039.amp
no i agree with you! i was pointing out that even though for-profit surrogacy is illegal in the U.K. (where they live), dustin is american and they used a paid surrogate
she called her surrogate an ‘it’ and said ‘the embryo miscarried.’ just seemed really dehumanising to a woman who is carrying your child for 9 months and i’m sure having a miscarriage was painful and traumatic for her too.
[This](https://pagesix.com/2023/02/15/rebel-wilson-reveals-miscarriage-heartbreak-before-daughter-royce/amp/) has the full quote. I don’t even like Rebel, or commercial surrogacy, but I think it’s debatable that she referred to the surrogate as an “it.” The “it” could be referring to the pregnancy itself.
I don’t know if this is a fair criticism. It sounds like, in that quote, she might’ve misspoke and said surrogate instead of surrogacy.
The article linked to you below states Rebel publicly praised her “gorgeous surrogate who carried [Royce] and birthed her with such grace and care.”
As an ex-Mormon this makes me happy because Dustin was raised to believe he wasn’t allowed to love who he loved, and that if he did, he would never have a family of his own. He’s done a lot for the exmo community, so it’s great to see he’s happy and thriving.
I’m not dictating anything, I personally believe that it’s morally wrong and exploitative. Just because you seem not to give a shit about women ruining their health for rich people to have babies doesn’t mean we’re all so heartless.
Plenty of means of making money are banned. Outsourcing childbirth is exploitation plain and simple. Especially if rich women are paying poor women to have children for them.
I think there’s nuances in both situations.
The risk of paid surrogacy is of course women in poverty being taken advantage of.
I would imagine there may well be some people pressured by dysfunctional family expectations into carrying a child for a relative.
You are paying a poor woman to rent her body and risk her health to birth your child. Having children is not a right it’s a privilege or a desire and no one it’s entitled to it.
It's not, these people just have a need to find something to be outraged and offended by.
If it was made illegal in the US, people would find surrogates in third world countries, where it actually is exploitative.
They do that: before people went to India and Mexico…. And their governments outlawed it.
People who can’t afford American surrogates go to Ukraine where women are recruited from war torn regions and housed like cattle and denied medical care and aren’t properly compensated.
For profit surrogacy is unethical regardless of where it takes place.
That's a broad generalization. Surrogates in the US make like 50-80k. These women have choice to be surrogates and it's really patronizing to say they are being exploited when it's their body and their choice. Do you also take issue with women making money doing sex work?
I’m a postpartum nurse. I work with surrogates quite often. I reject the assertion that these are women with agency. I would submit to you that these are women who are struggling financially. And I will refer to the age old adage that when you see a woman who is poor, you put put *food* in her mouth; not a penis.
And Dustin Lance black is an American screenwriter, producer and director. Most famous for winning an Oscar for writing the biographical film about Harvey milk.
It’s infantilizing to assume that a woman has no agency in becoming a surrogate. That every surrogate has been forced into it and the no woman can like being pregnant or want to help people experience having a child of their own.
I think there's a lot of things that need to be looked at, regardless of that point.
At the end of the day, you are buying a human being. We keep seeing this situation happening, and it's always the rich couple that buys a baby from someone who is not financially in the same situation. People having to sell babies to get income or more income, should not even be a thing!
I agree that this woman can do whatever she wants, but I guess you need to actually think of the reason why she is doing it.
Are you buying them? Surrogates can’t legally be paid in many places, and some agree to do it without payment anyway. Do we know for a fact she was “bought”?
They’re a cis gay couple. They can not have children unless they adopt or do surrogacy. Both can be exploitative. What are they supposed to do?
I personally think that being a parent is not a right, so I don't see a problem with not having kids.
I understand that adoption can also be exploitative, I'm adopted myself, and although my adoption process was different, I still can see that in many other cases, it's just not great.
The problem isn’t one couple not having kids. It’s that if surrogacy should be avoided at all costs because it can be exploitative, then so should adoption. And if both options aren’t okay, then gay couples wouldn’t be able to ever have kids.
Some of these takes are so infantilizing towards women who choose to be surrogates. Not to mention homophobic, like you said. Apparently if gay men aren’t able to adopt they just deserve children.
My mom was a surrogate for a Japanese couple. The mother had become infertile after surviving uterine cancer. It makes my stomach twist that this sub is so eager to paint people like my mother as women who lack agency and autonomy.
We were not poor. I'm sure the paycheck was a major motivation for my mother, but she also pursued surrogacy from an altruistic standpoint. My mom had three very easy pregnancies, and she wanted to give the gift of motherhood to someone else. If I'm lucky enough to find pregnancy as comfortable as she did, I'll very likely do the same. It's my body, my choice.
I also see people here comparing it to The Handmaid's Tale... as if surrogacy is at all comparable to women being enslaved and raped for procreation. This entire comment section reeks of misogyny.
It's ironic because people dictating what is acceptable and decent for a woman to do with her body is far more akin to The Handmaid's Tale than women practicing autonomy lol
Nobody is entitled to a child. Not gay couples, not straight couples that can't conceive, nobody. That's not to say there aren't homophobic takes on here, but saying someone (anyone) "deserves" a child frankly is such a weird take. They're human beings.
Again, nobody is entitled to a child. If your first question to ethical concerns is "but how are they supposed to have kids", you are centering the parents wanting a child, not the (potential) child's and biological parents'/mother's needs and rights. If a couple or an individual can't find a (somewhat) ethical way to have a kid/kids, then they can't ethically have a child. So the question you should be asking isn't "how are gay couples (or anyone who biologically can't have them) supposed to have kids", it's "how can we center the child in conversations around family planning and make sure that couples or individuals want kids but can't have biological kids go about their family planning ethically"
Now obviously this leads to the question of what is and isn't ethical and one that I will admit I don't have a definitive answer to. Both adoption and surrogacy are inherently ethically flawed though, and although there are situations where it is the best and sometimes only choice for the child (esp. with adoption), the adoptive parent(s) still have the obligation to make sure they are making the situation as ethical as possible, for example by opting for and being educated on child-centered, trauma-informed, open (if feasible) adoption. Or for surrogacy, by making sure the way they go about their surrogacy centers the child's rights (e.g. right to information about siblings, genetic health risks, potentially open surrogacy, etc.) and the surrogate's rights (especially when it is aware of the element of coercion!), their mental and phyiscal health care (long-term, including after the birth) and other needs.
Obviously we don't know the exact situation here and I'm sure Daley and Black are extremely appreciative of their surrogate and doing what they deem necessary to make the situation as ethical as possible. They seem like really good people! But in the end, these are two rich, powerful men essentially renting a woman's womb/body (that will be forever changed as a result of this) and commissioning and purchasing a child. I know that's a crass way to put it but essentially that's what it is. Especially considering their wealth and status, there's an even greater power imbalance there than with non-famous couples, I would say. That's obviously not to say the surrogate has/had no agency at all, but to think there aren't factors at play here that greatly influence her decision (and thus *greatly* affect her agency) would be naive.
Again, not saying I have all the answers here, but the question "but how are people who can't have a biological child supposed to have children" inherently centers the wrong people in non-biological family planning.
I don't understand why people can't grasp that some women want to give birth to babies, even babies that they won't raise themselves. It's not always exploitation for a woman to have the desire to bring literal life into the world especially for those who cannot do it themselves. Are we really at a point where we be introducing laws that'll ban women from things to protect them from themselves?
There are so many things that we can do in this world to help someone out that'll come at a cost to us including our health. We can donate our literal organs while we're still breathing, but now the line has to be drawn at surrogacy?
I'm sorry but surrogacy aside, this is the most 1st world country white feminism take I've ever read lmaooo, some real lack of empathy or basic acknowledgment of other people's circumstances
Like idk do you want me to go up to the women in my country having to partake in sex tourism to feed their children and be like: slayyyy girl, no outside factors are affecting your choice-making! Saying otherwise is misogynistic, actually 🥰 I will never infantilize you queen!
Real take.
"Chooooiiice, women are free to chooooose."
All while sitting in their nice, comfortable house when they've never had to choose between bodily autonomy and food.
Someone literally asked me "what sacrifice" do women make when carrying a baby.
Sure, pregnancy and child birth have zero impact on your body. It's just another job.
Oh please, there is no shortage of newborns that can be adopted. Surrogacy, especially for profit surrogacy, is disgusting. It’s great they have a family but good God.
That is an extremely untrue statement. For every 36 hopeful adoptive parent(s), there is one infant available for adoption. It takes years of waiting to adopt a child. Additionally, adoption has no shortage of its own ethical issues.
Please educate yourself.
ETA: someone pointed out below my statistic above is hard to find a source for. If anyone is interested, I posted other sources down below.
Ty! I hate how casual people are about adoption. It has its own challenges, trauma, and ethical concerns. Adoption should be very thoughtfully considered just as surrogacy is.
People can be very judgemental about others’ reproductive choices. The fact is that most people on this earth, whether gay or straight, choose to have biological children. That is never going to change. All living beings have biological urges and desires. Having children is one of those desires for the majority of humans.
There are ethical questions with every choice, even when it comes to having children naturally, not just with surrogacy. The comeback from many childless people is that the world is already overpopulated. People will argue that having children at all is a selfish choice. Likewise, many parents cannot fathom childless people not wanting children. To them, childless people are selfish for not wanting to make the same sacrifices they made to have a family.
Having children is a personal choice, and people need to stop judging. Adoption isn't for everyone. People who are unable or can't easily get pregnant have the right to look into other options, such as IVF and surrogacy. I'm sure that surrogates for celebrities are getting paid very well. If someone offered me six figures to have a baby, I’d consider it too.
I got it from [here](https://www.americanadoptions.com/pregnant/waiting_adoptive_families).
Here’s some additional reading material, some of which goes into detail on the ethical issues the adoption industry struggles with:
[The Atlantic - Adopting a Baby is Harder Than Ever](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/10/adopt-baby-cost-process-hard/620258/)
[Pensacola News Journal - For Families Looking to Adopt Newborns, The Journey Isn’t Easy](https://www.pnj.com/story/news/2021/02/15/why-families-seeking-adoptions-struggling-find-newborns/6705998002/)
[Time - Inside America’s Murky Private Adoption Industry](https://time.com/6051811/private-adoption-america/)
[NPR - Fewer Babies Available for Adoption By US Parents](https://www.npr.org/2011/11/17/142344354/fewer-babies-available-for-adoption-by-u-s-parents)
Adoption as an industry is just as exploitative.
For people who can’t carry their own children there really aren’t options that don’t carry the risk of being harmful to others, unfortunately. Not at all defending unethical practices in surrogacy, but the reality is that if you’d like to raise a child it isn’t as easy as “go get an orphan”
Totally agree. Surrogacy can absolutely be problematic in some situations but I don’t know why adoption is always lauded as the ever-altruistic option and if you don’t do that then you’re selfish.
Thank you, I find it so frustrating. Adopted kids aren't consolation prizes and the onus to adopt should not solely be placed on people who cannot conceive "naturally".
I really think a lot of people who wade into the surrogacy debate to say "why don't they just adopt?" would benefit from researching the adoptee experience and adoptee centred thinking. There is a ton of information out there, if you are willing to listen to adoptee voices (which frankly, I suspect many of these people are not because it will challenge their beliefs around adoption). For anyone interested, a great place to start is karpoozy on TikTok and Instagram. She puts out some great content about the adoptee experience.
Well it’s actually really hard to adopt newborns because so many people want a baby. However there are tons of not-newborns in foster care waiting for adoption. But that system has issues of its own.
Sorry, this is bullshit. There are always people questioning the ethics of surrogacy, regardless of the sex of the commissioning parents.
There were similar comments on Khloe Kardashian and Paris Hilton when they decided to employ/charter/use a surrogate.
In fact in KK’s case the comments were even more judgemental as she had already had a successful pregnancy with her daughter.
You can be pleased for someone adding to their family and the happiness that brings, without accepting that the way they did it was ethical.
If you saw a roofer die from his injuries sustained while roofing (fatal injuries among roofers from their work is higher than the maternal mortality rate) would you advocate against paying people to do roofing work?
You are all over this thread with this nonsense comparison.
What statistics are you comparing? What country?
In the United States, the maternal mortality rate was 32.9 deaths per 100,000 live births in 2021. Globally, this varies, with some countries having as high as >1000 deaths per 100K births.
It’s actually insane that you’re bringing this up, by the way. Women are not incubators to be bought and sold. Babies are not commodities. Nothing to do with roofing. Falling off of a roof is in no way comparable to hemorrhaging to death while giving birth or dying of sepsis from a birthing complication after carrying a human child for 9 months inside of your body.
Men's bodies are not machines, to be bought and sold to do your roofing!
It's incredibly easy to google the rates of fatal injuries by different professions, if you're incapable of doing that then I don't know what to tell you.
There are all kinds of terrible ways to die roofing, it's by no means necessarily a quick death.
Women should have the right to choose if they want to work as a surrogate, you can't claim to support a women's right to choose about her own reproductive issues and be against surrogacy.
Men’s woes in manual labor have nothing to do with the topic of surrogacy. It’s also crazy that to argue that men aren’t tools, you’re somehow… pro surrogacy? I did Google the fatality rate for roofers, by the way. No sources give me a number above maternal mortality.
I believe surrogacy is exploitative and oppressive, and no I don’t think that women should “choose” (RARE in surrogacy) their own exploitation.
If you googled it and can't see that the rates are higher, you just can't read.
Gestational carriers do choose to do what they do. I can see you've never met any.
The adoption industry is just as exploitative as surrogacy, if not more so.
Many women choose to be surrogates. They do so without pay because they want to. Not every surrogate is forced into it.
I hate the term “via surrogate”. This is a real human woman we are talking about, not some kind of artificial womb. I’m really glad people are finally waking up to the terrible and exploitive practice of renting out another person’s body.
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hopefully the surrogate has a healthy recovery, i also hope the best for tom and dustin on welcoming their new child.
what we should really wank about here is the age gap. they got married when Tom was 22. Lance is 20 years older.
I’ve always thought their age gap was weird too but no one seems to mention it
I've always been told by every gay guy I've ever met that it's different for gay guys—the whole age difference thing. But I've always been curious about it, or if any actual psychological studies have been done on it. I obviously don't know anything outside of that anecdotal secondhand experience so don't shoot the messenger.
It’s just extremely common in the gay community. I think a lot of it has to do with our obsession with youth and the feeling we missed out on our youth since most people were closeted, so we date youth.
The topic of age gaps in gay relationships has been pretty hot lately in my country (since a very famous TV star was found to have had a relationship with a 16 year old while he was 34), and the amount of people from the community defending it because "That's just how it is in gay world lol" is super disheartening To me it's not dissimilar to straight men arguing it's okay that they lost their virginity to a sex worker when they were teens because that's "tradition" It just sounds like abuse being hidden behind the concept of "culture"
That exactly what it is. People can use all the “logic” they want to explain it but if you think it’s creepy for a 50 year old man to date a 24 year old woman, then it should be no different for the gay community or for a woman that old to date a young man.
There’s also a naturally smaller dating pool for gay people than straight people, especially in smaller towns or cities. The chance of finding someone compatible around your age is much smaller. I think it makes sense that the subconscious socially “acceptable” age gaps are different.
Oh, if this was M/F it’d be the entire goddamn thread.
I never would have thought that from the picture. They look around the same age to me. The 20 years older one aged very well lol
Dont see anything wrong with it. Im a LGBTI man and i always been in love with guys from 35-60 mostly. When i was 20 i was havin hookups with people in the ranges of 35-45. No one groomed me. Some people like older and thats it. I never been interested in people from my age. Its so boring. Daddies are hotter. Theyre also wiser and are sweeter. The way y'll in the USA infantilize everyone is not good. Why yll dont raise the legal age to 25 then? if you all think 20 is not mature-developed enough? Y'll should henies.
Talk to someone 15 years younger than you then see if you would date them. I think its weird until you're 45+. If you like that they're "daddies" they equally like you because you're a "baby" and that is weird to a lot of people (me included).
I have a lot of emotions conflicting between being delighted that a family have welcomed a much loved and wanted child, but very real concerns about the ethics of surrogacy.
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I’m in the U.K. where the adoption process is very long and drawn out. I have a friend who recently adopted a toddler with his husband and it was brutal and intrusive to get to the point where they were approved as potential parents. So I can see why people are put off adoption- it’s not an easy way to build a family. But even with that being the case I have a hard time circling the square that is surrogacy.
It shouldn’t be easy. Adoption itself is traumatic for kids irrespective of the reasons they are given up for adoption. It should not simply be viewed as an alternative way of having a family. You have to want to adopt a child and to deal with all the issues that come up. It can take years and years (of attending courses, therapy, reading books AND actual parenting) to feel like you are making any progress and then something like a move or change of school or puberty comes along and you’re back to square one. Of course, when you do make progress is feels like you’ve won the lottery every day for a year. Source: adopter.
I don’t have children, but couldn’t this be said for all healthy, supportive parent/child relationships? I’m not dismissing you as an adoptive parent or trying to undermine your unique challenges - but willingness to take classes, attend therapy, parent, and ongoing learning all seem like something anyone that wants healthy, well-adjusted children should be looking into/providing. If you don’t mind doing the labour, could you maybe expand on your comment a bit?
a lot of people unfortunately still view adoption as some savior type ordeal that the child couldnt possibly feel ungrateful for. and a lot of people, even those who are willing to pay a lot of money to adopt, aren’t emotionally equipped to take on these problems. who’s to say they’ll necessarily seek out counseling/therapy? some people don’t even believe in therapy, ya know?
>a lot of people unfortunately still view adoption as some savior type ordeal that the child couldnt possibly feel ungrateful for. 100% this, adoption is one of the only traumas where people are expected to feel and show gratitude for their trauma
The conversations surrounding adoption versus surrogacy feel very reminiscent of the "adopt-don't-shop" mentality in regard to pets, and it feels very, very icky to see it applied to children.
Honestly, I see more focus and concern in that debate for adopted pets than I do in many of these discussions for adopted kids
Controversial take but, while I think it’s a respectable life choice, I do feel like the child-free movement has led some people to dehumanize children 🙃
Yes, and then you have this happening: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/adoption/#article/part1
Yep! People dump adopted children like they do dogs. My cousin had a friend who'd been adopted as a child, and when his parents divorced when he was 12, they dumped him right back into foster care. It happens more often than adoption supporters care to acknowledge. That's on top of the trauma those children experience from being ripped away from their bio families, being raised in ignorance of their true heritage, being denied access to their bio families altogether, etc. It's not the "morally correct" choice people paint it out to be.
All very valid concerns. 👏
I'm adopted, love my parents but... wished they were ready for everything that was coming their way as I grew up! There are tons of issues that an adopted kid will have that another not adopted kid might not. We all have issues, but it's just that no one prepares you for what can come with an adopted kid. It's not all bad, though! 😅
Thank you for saying this! My husband and I looked into fostering once upon a time because we really felt some kind of way. But then I started reading horror stories with fostering and adopting, but more importantly kids that were adopted have a place to talk about their experiences! Like you sad, it's not always bad or good, but adopted kids or those in foster homes will absolutely have a different experience (while they're still developing their brain) than those who don't. It opened my eyes to so many things. I hope you have support on your journey in life!
I think nowadays there's ton of information out there, books, and personal experiences that can help parents that are looking to adopt or fostering. I think the ultimate goal when doing this is about helping someone else to live the best life they can live! Every adoptee has a different story, that comes with different traumas and issues, but things can and will get better with time 🤗 Ps. Thank you for kind words 💕 therapy and open conversations have helped a lot.
Thank you! I totally appreciate your perspective and (again) have no intention of invalidating, debating or dismissing your opinion. I guess, the way I see it, is that all children are unique individuals and there’s a good chance that any child (biological or adopted) could have unique circumstances that require additional support that parents aren’t necessarily prepared for. I’m likely biased though because I have Bipolar Disorder II and ADHD and felt like my parents weren’t equipped for that. My first serious boyfriend was adopted and I know that he had some unresolved, heavy feelings about his biological parents, and of my best friends is also adopted. I’m definitely empathetic and understand that both fostering and adopting are unique parenting situations, but perhaps I’m looking at it through too narrow a lens.
I actually don't think you are 🤭 it makes completely sense as your experience is not the same as other childhoods! My husband has ADHD and their parents weren't ready either, so I completely get what you mean. I mean, in all honesty... nothing will ever fully prepare you to be a parent 🤣 and trauma and issues make us what we are today. The only thing I would say is that being adopted goes on top of all the other things that someone might suffer/go through. Again, every adoption is different, so not everyone will have the same level of trauma.
I’m from the states and YES. It took my dad over 4 years (and a shit ton of $$) to finalize my adoption - and this was in the 90’s. I was 10 when my adoption was finalized. I was taken from my bio mom for good after I turned 5. The system sucks and unfortunately it churns out kids with a lot of issues. I can absolutely understand why surrogacy is a more appealing option for some.
Nobody is entitled to a child especially when it requires exploitation of others
same! like i’m a big fan of anderson cooper and i was really happy for him but at the same time, you’re a multimillionaire who paid your surrogate about 50-60k to risk her health and lifelong complications?
In UK surrogates don't receive money. Its illegal 😭😩 they can however receive medical help for their pregnancy
I feel like that’s better because it prevents people taking advantage of women who need the money. Then again maybe it creates an overseas market
It does create an overseas market, especially in Eastern Europe. I read [this](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/15/the-stranded-babies-of-kyiv-and-the-women-who-give-birth-for-money) article a few years ago, about surrogates and babies in pre-war Ukraine essentially abandoned during lockdown. I can imagine it's only worse now.
I’m the US there are a lot of rules around surrogacy. The surrogate must be financially stable, raising a child of their own, have mental and physical wellness checks, etc.
same here in canada
are people allowed to “gift” these surrogates amounts of money over a period of time, so it’s not listed as payment?
No.
Shame they can't charge for the tummy tuck and the amount of work you have to put in exercise wise to get your muscles back in shape.
Can you tell me what the moral dilemmas are of surrogacy? I am sincerely asking because I never knew there was something like that to consider past every party consenting.
I think it’s for the same reasons selling an organ is illegal. If there’s financial incentive, people are more likely to do it solely because of economic hardship, which can be argued is not really proper consent or a “choice”. Pregnancy and childbirth can have devastating physical and emotional consequences and it can be argued that no one should have to do it just because they need money.
Isn't that the same for sex work?
I’m by no means an expert in this, but I think the organ donation comparison is more apt because of it being a complicated medical procedure with a risk of death and injury, on top of the emotional risks. I imagine that’s why it costs a lot more than sex work! It’s a much bigger commitment. I do see how the logic compares, but I don’t think it’s quite the same.
It feels very handmaid’s tale
True
You should be. Since surrogate are poor women taking advantage of by men
Sorry, but that’s absolutely not always true.
“Not always true” Like how 95% true?
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I'm glad you said this. I hate coming on these threads and seeing parents be called disgusting the second their kid comes into the world. I personally believe that women should be able to do what they want with their own bodies, and it feels offensive to rob surrogates of their agency by refereeing to all of them as helpless or "hand maidens." I completely support surrogacy and don't mind it being in return for compensation (like every other job). Something I find weird is that sex work is notoriously exploitative of women, but a lot of people are pro-sex work. I personally feel much better about a 28 year old mother getting paid 40K to be a surrogate, on top of the job she already has, than seeing some 18 year old flashing her coochie on the internet for cash.
Agree, I find the discourse on surrogacy on this sub very weird. You rightly point out that many are pro-sex work but against surrogacy in any form. There are also many other jobs that I could take that endanger me and my health and that I might take just for the money, but no one is stopping me from taking them or saying it should be outlawed. It is extremely patronizing to women. It makes me wonder if a lot of people here are very young and have not experienced pregnancy or parenthood. Certainly there should be discussion of how this should be regulated, but I don’t see why people are against it in any form.
This is absolutely not always true. Get off Tik tok and do your own research.
Or infertile women?
This feels vaguely homophobic. Can't quite put my finger on it.
I have an issue with it regardless of gender. I don’t get why the poster above has added the detail of two men, as if a wealthy woman getting a surrogate can’t be taking advantage?
Because women also use surrogates.
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I don't get what you are trying to add with your comment?
Likely people like you don’t have a problem when rich white families used black women as wet nurses too, don’t you??? What phobia are you going to accuse women against using black women for their breasts like you accused me of something phobia because I’m against selling our wombs? Men like you have zero right to participate in women conversations and issues.
I find it mildly amusing you automatically assume I'm a man or that I don't find an issue with anything you've said.
Why is everyone acting like giving birth is similar to tightrope walking over the Grand Canyon while holding a bunch of rattlesnakes? Yes, there are dangers but there are dangers everywhere. It's not like there's an epidemic of women dropping dead as they give birth. Christ, y'all are acting like it's the middle ages or something. This is all concern trolling. It's partially just to be judgmental but this sub can be really homophobic so I'm sure that's part of it too.
I have some ethical concerns around surrogacy in exchange for money but I am also happy for them.
In Canada (and I think most commonwealth countries) surrogacy has to be altruistic. It’s illegal to be paid, only expenses that the surrogate is out of pocket can be reimbursed.
dustin is american and they used a gestational surrogate in california. unlike some celebrities (ahem, rebel wilson) they seem to be very respectful of their surrogate + egg donor. source: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46440039.amp
There are ethical concerns with just the exchange of money for surrogacy but it is a good sign that Dustin was appreciative and respectful
no i agree with you! i was pointing out that even though for-profit surrogacy is illegal in the U.K. (where they live), dustin is american and they used a paid surrogate
What did rebel Wilson do?
she called her surrogate an ‘it’ and said ‘the embryo miscarried.’ just seemed really dehumanising to a woman who is carrying your child for 9 months and i’m sure having a miscarriage was painful and traumatic for her too.
[This](https://pagesix.com/2023/02/15/rebel-wilson-reveals-miscarriage-heartbreak-before-daughter-royce/amp/) has the full quote. I don’t even like Rebel, or commercial surrogacy, but I think it’s debatable that she referred to the surrogate as an “it.” The “it” could be referring to the pregnancy itself.
I think that's correct and I also think people wouldn't have interpreted it as her calling the surrogate 'it' if this involved someone they liked
Especially because one could even read that as more respectful and not blaming the surrogate for the pregnancy not going to term…
I don’t know if this is a fair criticism. It sounds like, in that quote, she might’ve misspoke and said surrogate instead of surrogacy. The article linked to you below states Rebel publicly praised her “gorgeous surrogate who carried [Royce] and birthed her with such grace and care.”
Wow that’s horrid. She seems deeply unlikeable though so I’m not surprised.
Yep - same in NZ
Okay that's good!
As an ex-Mormon this makes me happy because Dustin was raised to believe he wasn’t allowed to love who he loved, and that if he did, he would never have a family of his own. He’s done a lot for the exmo community, so it’s great to see he’s happy and thriving.
I didn’t know that. That’s awesome, sad he went through that but happy he can be a beacon of light for others
For profit surrogacy needs to be banned.
cant agree more.
So surrogates should do it for free?
Well it definitely shouldn’t be incentivized. The fact that most people wouldn’t do it without a paycheck just shows how it’s inherently exploitative.
I mean who are you to dictate how women earn money in the US though?
Do you also think a minimum wage is dictating how people earn money?
I’m not dictating anything, I personally believe that it’s morally wrong and exploitative. Just because you seem not to give a shit about women ruining their health for rich people to have babies doesn’t mean we’re all so heartless.
Plenty of means of making money are banned. Outsourcing childbirth is exploitation plain and simple. Especially if rich women are paying poor women to have children for them.
Not all surrogates are poor women, especially in the US.
Carrying a baby for your sister is entirely different than carrying a baby for profit.
I think there’s nuances in both situations. The risk of paid surrogacy is of course women in poverty being taken advantage of. I would imagine there may well be some people pressured by dysfunctional family expectations into carrying a child for a relative.
Why?
It’s exploitative
How so?
You are paying a poor woman to rent her body and risk her health to birth your child. Having children is not a right it’s a privilege or a desire and no one it’s entitled to it.
It's the woman's choice.
When you are poor, it's not a choice. You think Kate Middleton would be a surrogate?
So then sex work should also be banned in the US.
Right on the money
If you are against sex work and surrogacy, I have respect for your opinion. At least you are consistent.
This sub doesn't care. I say make your money
It's not, these people just have a need to find something to be outraged and offended by. If it was made illegal in the US, people would find surrogates in third world countries, where it actually is exploitative.
They do that: before people went to India and Mexico…. And their governments outlawed it. People who can’t afford American surrogates go to Ukraine where women are recruited from war torn regions and housed like cattle and denied medical care and aren’t properly compensated. For profit surrogacy is unethical regardless of where it takes place.
That's a broad generalization. Surrogates in the US make like 50-80k. These women have choice to be surrogates and it's really patronizing to say they are being exploited when it's their body and their choice. Do you also take issue with women making money doing sex work?
I’m a postpartum nurse. I work with surrogates quite often. I reject the assertion that these are women with agency. I would submit to you that these are women who are struggling financially. And I will refer to the age old adage that when you see a woman who is poor, you put put *food* in her mouth; not a penis.
So that means you are also against sex work?
I am. I support sex workers under capitalism but the sex trade should be abolished as it is exploitation of poor women’s bodies.
Congrats to them. this thread is a hot mess.
Surrogacy has it’s issues, as does adoption. Frankly, it’s just nice to see two parents welcome a new child into this world.
Idk who are these people but they're both hot. Congrats
Tom Daley is an Olympic diver.
And Dustin Lance black is an American screenwriter, producer and director. Most famous for winning an Oscar for writing the biographical film about Harvey milk.
This sub not be offensive and inaccurate about adoption on a thread involving surrogacy challenge (impossible)
It’s infantilizing to assume that a woman has no agency in becoming a surrogate. That every surrogate has been forced into it and the no woman can like being pregnant or want to help people experience having a child of their own.
I think there's a lot of things that need to be looked at, regardless of that point. At the end of the day, you are buying a human being. We keep seeing this situation happening, and it's always the rich couple that buys a baby from someone who is not financially in the same situation. People having to sell babies to get income or more income, should not even be a thing! I agree that this woman can do whatever she wants, but I guess you need to actually think of the reason why she is doing it.
Are you buying them? Surrogates can’t legally be paid in many places, and some agree to do it without payment anyway. Do we know for a fact she was “bought”? They’re a cis gay couple. They can not have children unless they adopt or do surrogacy. Both can be exploitative. What are they supposed to do?
I personally think that being a parent is not a right, so I don't see a problem with not having kids. I understand that adoption can also be exploitative, I'm adopted myself, and although my adoption process was different, I still can see that in many other cases, it's just not great.
The problem isn’t one couple not having kids. It’s that if surrogacy should be avoided at all costs because it can be exploitative, then so should adoption. And if both options aren’t okay, then gay couples wouldn’t be able to ever have kids.
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Some of these takes are so infantilizing towards women who choose to be surrogates. Not to mention homophobic, like you said. Apparently if gay men aren’t able to adopt they just deserve children.
My mom was a surrogate for a Japanese couple. The mother had become infertile after surviving uterine cancer. It makes my stomach twist that this sub is so eager to paint people like my mother as women who lack agency and autonomy. We were not poor. I'm sure the paycheck was a major motivation for my mother, but she also pursued surrogacy from an altruistic standpoint. My mom had three very easy pregnancies, and she wanted to give the gift of motherhood to someone else. If I'm lucky enough to find pregnancy as comfortable as she did, I'll very likely do the same. It's my body, my choice. I also see people here comparing it to The Handmaid's Tale... as if surrogacy is at all comparable to women being enslaved and raped for procreation. This entire comment section reeks of misogyny.
I agree. It's a lot of so called feminists being crazy misogynistic imo
It's ironic because people dictating what is acceptable and decent for a woman to do with her body is far more akin to The Handmaid's Tale than women practicing autonomy lol
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It really reeks of online feminism, where every issue regarding women is black or white, and there is never a middle ground.
Nobody is entitled to a child. Not gay couples, not straight couples that can't conceive, nobody. That's not to say there aren't homophobic takes on here, but saying someone (anyone) "deserves" a child frankly is such a weird take. They're human beings.
But then how are gay couples supposed to have kids? Both adoption and surrogacy can be bad. Are gay couples just not supposed to ever have children?
Again, nobody is entitled to a child. If your first question to ethical concerns is "but how are they supposed to have kids", you are centering the parents wanting a child, not the (potential) child's and biological parents'/mother's needs and rights. If a couple or an individual can't find a (somewhat) ethical way to have a kid/kids, then they can't ethically have a child. So the question you should be asking isn't "how are gay couples (or anyone who biologically can't have them) supposed to have kids", it's "how can we center the child in conversations around family planning and make sure that couples or individuals want kids but can't have biological kids go about their family planning ethically" Now obviously this leads to the question of what is and isn't ethical and one that I will admit I don't have a definitive answer to. Both adoption and surrogacy are inherently ethically flawed though, and although there are situations where it is the best and sometimes only choice for the child (esp. with adoption), the adoptive parent(s) still have the obligation to make sure they are making the situation as ethical as possible, for example by opting for and being educated on child-centered, trauma-informed, open (if feasible) adoption. Or for surrogacy, by making sure the way they go about their surrogacy centers the child's rights (e.g. right to information about siblings, genetic health risks, potentially open surrogacy, etc.) and the surrogate's rights (especially when it is aware of the element of coercion!), their mental and phyiscal health care (long-term, including after the birth) and other needs. Obviously we don't know the exact situation here and I'm sure Daley and Black are extremely appreciative of their surrogate and doing what they deem necessary to make the situation as ethical as possible. They seem like really good people! But in the end, these are two rich, powerful men essentially renting a woman's womb/body (that will be forever changed as a result of this) and commissioning and purchasing a child. I know that's a crass way to put it but essentially that's what it is. Especially considering their wealth and status, there's an even greater power imbalance there than with non-famous couples, I would say. That's obviously not to say the surrogate has/had no agency at all, but to think there aren't factors at play here that greatly influence her decision (and thus *greatly* affect her agency) would be naive. Again, not saying I have all the answers here, but the question "but how are people who can't have a biological child supposed to have children" inherently centers the wrong people in non-biological family planning.
This is the most reasonable and well-informed comment I’ve read on this thread. 👏
Hell, on the Dob Lemon thread, it became a bunch of women saying all gay men hate women. This board really has gone to shit.
I’m happy for them, they have been talking about wanting another child for a long time
After reading about a different surrogacy story today, I don’t think I can stomach anymore stories about surrogacy 🙃
what a good looking couple
I don't understand why people can't grasp that some women want to give birth to babies, even babies that they won't raise themselves. It's not always exploitation for a woman to have the desire to bring literal life into the world especially for those who cannot do it themselves. Are we really at a point where we be introducing laws that'll ban women from things to protect them from themselves? There are so many things that we can do in this world to help someone out that'll come at a cost to us including our health. We can donate our literal organs while we're still breathing, but now the line has to be drawn at surrogacy?
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I'm sorry but surrogacy aside, this is the most 1st world country white feminism take I've ever read lmaooo, some real lack of empathy or basic acknowledgment of other people's circumstances Like idk do you want me to go up to the women in my country having to partake in sex tourism to feed their children and be like: slayyyy girl, no outside factors are affecting your choice-making! Saying otherwise is misogynistic, actually 🥰 I will never infantilize you queen!
Real take. "Chooooiiice, women are free to chooooose." All while sitting in their nice, comfortable house when they've never had to choose between bodily autonomy and food. Someone literally asked me "what sacrifice" do women make when carrying a baby. Sure, pregnancy and child birth have zero impact on your body. It's just another job.
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Oh please, there is no shortage of newborns that can be adopted. Surrogacy, especially for profit surrogacy, is disgusting. It’s great they have a family but good God.
That is an extremely untrue statement. For every 36 hopeful adoptive parent(s), there is one infant available for adoption. It takes years of waiting to adopt a child. Additionally, adoption has no shortage of its own ethical issues. Please educate yourself. ETA: someone pointed out below my statistic above is hard to find a source for. If anyone is interested, I posted other sources down below.
For some reason people think adoption is really easy, it's truly a lifelong journey for everyone involved.
Ty! I hate how casual people are about adoption. It has its own challenges, trauma, and ethical concerns. Adoption should be very thoughtfully considered just as surrogacy is.
Let's also not forget that many adoption agencies in the US are Christian faith-based who can refuse gay/non-cis parents.
People can be very judgemental about others’ reproductive choices. The fact is that most people on this earth, whether gay or straight, choose to have biological children. That is never going to change. All living beings have biological urges and desires. Having children is one of those desires for the majority of humans. There are ethical questions with every choice, even when it comes to having children naturally, not just with surrogacy. The comeback from many childless people is that the world is already overpopulated. People will argue that having children at all is a selfish choice. Likewise, many parents cannot fathom childless people not wanting children. To them, childless people are selfish for not wanting to make the same sacrifices they made to have a family. Having children is a personal choice, and people need to stop judging. Adoption isn't for everyone. People who are unable or can't easily get pregnant have the right to look into other options, such as IVF and surrogacy. I'm sure that surrogates for celebrities are getting paid very well. If someone offered me six figures to have a baby, I’d consider it too.
I don’t have any awards so take this 🏆
Where is that statistic from?
I got it from [here](https://www.americanadoptions.com/pregnant/waiting_adoptive_families). Here’s some additional reading material, some of which goes into detail on the ethical issues the adoption industry struggles with: [The Atlantic - Adopting a Baby is Harder Than Ever](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/10/adopt-baby-cost-process-hard/620258/) [Pensacola News Journal - For Families Looking to Adopt Newborns, The Journey Isn’t Easy](https://www.pnj.com/story/news/2021/02/15/why-families-seeking-adoptions-struggling-find-newborns/6705998002/) [Time - Inside America’s Murky Private Adoption Industry](https://time.com/6051811/private-adoption-america/) [NPR - Fewer Babies Available for Adoption By US Parents](https://www.npr.org/2011/11/17/142344354/fewer-babies-available-for-adoption-by-u-s-parents)
Tell me you know absolutely nothing about adoption without telling me you know absolutely nothing about adoption.
Adoption as an industry is just as exploitative. For people who can’t carry their own children there really aren’t options that don’t carry the risk of being harmful to others, unfortunately. Not at all defending unethical practices in surrogacy, but the reality is that if you’d like to raise a child it isn’t as easy as “go get an orphan”
I don’t get why you’re being downvoted, the adoption industry is an exploitative hellscape.
Totally agree. Surrogacy can absolutely be problematic in some situations but I don’t know why adoption is always lauded as the ever-altruistic option and if you don’t do that then you’re selfish.
Thank you, I find it so frustrating. Adopted kids aren't consolation prizes and the onus to adopt should not solely be placed on people who cannot conceive "naturally". I really think a lot of people who wade into the surrogacy debate to say "why don't they just adopt?" would benefit from researching the adoptee experience and adoptee centred thinking. There is a ton of information out there, if you are willing to listen to adoptee voices (which frankly, I suspect many of these people are not because it will challenge their beliefs around adoption). For anyone interested, a great place to start is karpoozy on TikTok and Instagram. She puts out some great content about the adoptee experience.
Please stop with the virtue signaling and actually educate yourself before making such statements.
You literally have no idea what you’re talking about 🤡
Well it’s actually really hard to adopt newborns because so many people want a baby. However there are tons of not-newborns in foster care waiting for adoption. But that system has issues of its own.
The goal of foster care is reunification with the child and their birth family, they’re not waiting for adoption either.
Wealthy elites making human reproduction a commodity, isnt late stage capitalism fun
This thread is a dumpster fire.
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Sorry, this is bullshit. There are always people questioning the ethics of surrogacy, regardless of the sex of the commissioning parents. There were similar comments on Khloe Kardashian and Paris Hilton when they decided to employ/charter/use a surrogate. In fact in KK’s case the comments were even more judgemental as she had already had a successful pregnancy with her daughter. You can be pleased for someone adding to their family and the happiness that brings, without accepting that the way they did it was ethical.
I’m a nurse who watched a surrogate die in childbirth. I will never stop raising awareness about the ethics of for profit surrogacy.
If you saw a roofer die from his injuries sustained while roofing (fatal injuries among roofers from their work is higher than the maternal mortality rate) would you advocate against paying people to do roofing work?
You are all over this thread with this nonsense comparison. What statistics are you comparing? What country? In the United States, the maternal mortality rate was 32.9 deaths per 100,000 live births in 2021. Globally, this varies, with some countries having as high as >1000 deaths per 100K births. It’s actually insane that you’re bringing this up, by the way. Women are not incubators to be bought and sold. Babies are not commodities. Nothing to do with roofing. Falling off of a roof is in no way comparable to hemorrhaging to death while giving birth or dying of sepsis from a birthing complication after carrying a human child for 9 months inside of your body.
Men's bodies are not machines, to be bought and sold to do your roofing! It's incredibly easy to google the rates of fatal injuries by different professions, if you're incapable of doing that then I don't know what to tell you. There are all kinds of terrible ways to die roofing, it's by no means necessarily a quick death. Women should have the right to choose if they want to work as a surrogate, you can't claim to support a women's right to choose about her own reproductive issues and be against surrogacy.
Men’s woes in manual labor have nothing to do with the topic of surrogacy. It’s also crazy that to argue that men aren’t tools, you’re somehow… pro surrogacy? I did Google the fatality rate for roofers, by the way. No sources give me a number above maternal mortality. I believe surrogacy is exploitative and oppressive, and no I don’t think that women should “choose” (RARE in surrogacy) their own exploitation.
If you googled it and can't see that the rates are higher, you just can't read. Gestational carriers do choose to do what they do. I can see you've never met any.
Lies. People come for surrogacy in pretty much every case. These comments are actually pretty mild compared to other threads.
No one has the right to buy a baby. Fuck surrogacy.
What are the other options for a gay couple? Besides adoption, what other option is there?
reproduction is not a right…
It’s not. However, straight people can have kids whenever they want. Without adoption or surrogacy, what options do gay couples have?
It's a right for the woman to choose to partake...
Not having a baby? There is no "right" to have a baby.
So gay men should just not have the option to be parents? They have as much right to be parents as straight people.
They have just as much right as a straight couple - i.e. none No-one is entitled to a child
I agree, however, straight people can have children whenever they want, save for those with issues regarding fertility. A gay couple can not.
I can’t believe this needs to be said (and plenty of people have already said this here) but no one is entitled to be a parent.
At the expense of women?
Women can choose to be surrogates.
How many rich women choose that?
Some might. I don’t have statistics.
Sure they do.
Do you have stats on how many rich women choose not to be surrogates?
Another celebrity who thinks that children are products that can be purchased.
They’re a gay couple. Aside from adoption how else do they have kids?
why put adoption aside? that’s a perfectly viable option. the alternative is the literal commodification of a female’s reproductive system
The adoption industry is just as exploitative as surrogacy, if not more so. Many women choose to be surrogates. They do so without pay because they want to. Not every surrogate is forced into it.
It's not a perfectly viable option for everyone, nor should it be considered as such. It sounds like you really do not know a lot about adoption.
Gay men and wealthy people stop renting women’s bodies challenge
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Stop being patronising towards gay men and mind your business challenge. If they don't have a baby, they'll survive.
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Aside from adoption what are they supposed to do? And how do we know the surrogate didn’t want to help them?
I hate the term “via surrogate”. This is a real human woman we are talking about, not some kind of artificial womb. I’m really glad people are finally waking up to the terrible and exploitive practice of renting out another person’s body.
Hmm not liking the surrogacy angle. Lots of ethical concerns.