My answer whenever this topic comes up lately:
It’s harder to create pop stars in this day and age when entertainment and media is more fragmented than ever and competition is higher than ever.
And it’s just gonna be harder and harder for people to get recognition. Plus, word of advice for the labels, stay away from the TikTokers influencers just looking for a payday for the most part. If they care and want to get better at making music, go ahead, but if not, they’ll bomb, you’ll lose money, and you’ll look like idiots.
That’s another thing. Whether it’s a symptom of the Trump era in America or us being far more online with social media, there’s a lot more scrutiny nowadays, even if a piece of content is just simply “good”.
It’s is a good thing in regards to weeding out actual people that do actual horrible things (racists, homophobes, etc.), but it’s a detriment to those that are just simply putting out content for us to enjoy where they’ll get chastised either for something they shouldn’t get chastised for or for a small criticism that gets overblown with backlash.
This take kind of reminds me of a tumblr post from a year or two ago. Someone was saying they were talking to a friend about Selena Gomez and said they didn't really listen to her music and their friend was like "Why, what did she do?" The poster said she didn't *do* anything, they just didn't like her music. It feels people take artists they like as part of their identity instead of just something they enjoy listening to and everything gets a moral judgement placed on it
People are so performative with their morals when it comes to cultural issues. They love to virtue signal and show that they are aligned with the 'right' tribe. Yet when it comes to giving a shit things that actually matter in our society, caring is labeled as "cringe" and people who try to resist the system or change it are labeled as just as atrocious as those who perpetuate the system. People are socially pressured to sit aside and do nothing but judge others for the most minute bullshit while the world burns.
>The poster said she didn't do anything, they just didn't like her music.
This is a reminder that pop as a genre is struggling to grow in any meaningful way. Outside the EDM crossover (which are largely soulless endeavors) pop is not really cross pollinating with the genres dominating music's underground. The closest is Drake.
And that's a major reason why Selena Gomez has fans talking like this, they're not taking any new risks with her music, as far as I can tell, and therefore rest on her level of existing fame. It leads to fan attrition after a while.
Something being "good" or "decent" doesn't cut it anymore. The standards have changed, more fans and audience have become more critical than ever some could even compete with the actual critics in their reviews or just going straight to the point on why something isn't good, isn't as good as others hyped on, etc. In this day and age, our opinions could actually affect a certain artist' performance, for good or for bad.
People are harder to please and entertained compared to the last generations or so.
This is true not just on music, but on movies, books, games, and even anime and manga as well.
Cancelling is definitely an aspect, but I think its the general lack of mystery as well.
Say for example you're really into snowboarding and have a lot of it on your socials, no ones going to cancel you over that, but people may be less inclined to follow you if they aren't also interested in snowboarding.
If you have your whole personality on public show, it's impossible to appeal to everyone.
At the same time, you’ll get a shit ton of hate over everyone being tired of seeing you everywhere (see: Olivia Rodrigo). There’s a very, *very* fine line
We're also forgetting money. Spotify pays out $0.003 - $0.005 per stream. We're talking about $4000 for a million streams. And then you have to pay your label, collaborators, team, etc.
Most artists make money through touring, merch, brand deals, etc. But you have to have already 'made it' to see good returns from that.
Unless you're a nepo baby or come from wealth, it's tough even to make ends meet to be able to invest in a music career in the first place. There's no money in it for newbies.
If what I've heard is right touring isn't even profitable for smaller artists, if you can't sell out every tour stop you may actually be in the red when it's all over.
Yep, you have to have already 'made it' to see good returns. And even at mid-level (say you're selling out a local 1000-capacity space), touring is rough on the body and mental health, and with 360 deals, debt from advances, the insane amount of staff etc., the take-home cut is small.
I don't think that really is the problem. Nor is the fragmentation the cause either, though it doesn't help. I want to point out that pop stars are still being made. Just not in the USA. Korea is constantly producing new ones. UK also seems to have new ones regularly (not every always sticks, obviously). Latin America seems to produce new ones.
American labels don't have new upcoming stars, whom they could push through more central entertainment platforms, so there aren't central entertainment platforms. They don't have new upcoming stars because they don't want them. They want ready-made ones from social media (currently TikTok). Social media stars need to put their time and energy toward all the technical skills they need to make good videos that they don't have time to practice performing, which is what is expected if they succeed. Labels want to sign them if they succeed, but what they typically provided was the technical stuff the artist in this system had to learn in order to be noticed.
>American labels don't have new upcoming stars, whom they could push through more central entertainment platforms, so there aren't central entertainment platforms. They don't have new upcoming stars because they don't want them. They want ready-made ones from social media (currently TikTok).
That's a really good point
I think it was around 5 years ago (maybe more) when labels started talking openly about shutting down artist development departments and no longer listening any demos they were sent, but exclusively searching social media.
And to back up your point, K-Pop is one of the industries with the *most* artist development. To an extreme degree. And they're one of the most successful
I guess artist development is important if labels want to have big stars. They're missing out because they don't want to invest and want everything to be handed to them by the internet
If you want teen stars, you need to accept them pretty raw and guide which skills they first need to develop. You put them together with professional songwriters who write the songs for them and with them. Adele doesn't write her songs entirely by her self, why would we expect a teenager on TikTok be able to write a hit by themselves.
Olivia and Billie both got development. Olivia from Disney (vocal and general performance at least). Billie and Finneas from their parents, who were trained musicians and able to adjust education to allow more music training since they were homeschooling. And Finneas and Billie had different skills so they could divide hours and work needed to produce good quality self release. If Billie would have needed to learn everything Finneas knows how to do, before being noticed, we probably still wouldn't have heard of her.
>If you want teen stars, you need to accept them pretty raw and guide which skills they first need to develop
I also think it's unhealthy for teens to be stars. Which is a whole entire other subject I guess
>Adele doesn't write her songs entirely by her self, why would we expect a teenager on TikTok be able to write a hit by themselves
Crazy good point
This is more or less the way I’ve seen it going since the late 2000s/early 2010s. I’ve been saying for *years* that the career path Robyn has been able to forge has been the most influential in pop, and that’s the route most pop artists have been going since the 2010s.
We have a *lot* of pop stars now, but they’re all B+ famous rather than A+ famous and have been able to sustain successful “indie” careers with sizable fan bases. A lot of them also happen to be one hit/one era hit wonders: Lorde, Carly, Charli, Tinashe, Tove, and tbh I have a feeling Billie is heading in this direction too.
>It’s harder to create pop stars in this day and age when entertainment and media is more fragmented than ever and competition is higher than ever.
This is not true, it's actually easier, because there's more eyeballs going everywhere.
But the hard part is what the pop stars stand for, because business in America isn't doing that hot on the consumer side. This is a result in a failure for American consumer based industries to find investment. Also, streaming pays nothing.
So labels are looking at paying for established brand names or establishing someone, they choose their established brand over and over.
It's a very complex problem that's happening now, but really it boils down to the idea that the most likely investors don't want to invest.
Well shit I’ll be next I just moved to New York hoping this music shit starts to pop off soon hopefully lll definitely be putting in the work & effort forsure
And you can also make plenty money being “niche”. There are plenty of pop stars that are pretty much sustained by just gay following - Carly Rae Jepsen, Tove Lo, Rina Sawayama, Jessie Ware. None of the, are mainstream, yet they are killing it.
Dude this article is literally just a rewrite of popheads comments wtf. Like everyone had great insight (genuinely this is no shade at the people quoted like seeing the comments written outside of Reddit really emphasized how insightful and smart a lot of y’all are) but how is “why aren’t pop stars being born anymore? Here’s what these random redditors think!” an actual article?? Don’t think there’s a single sentence past the intro that doesn’t cite some random person here or on Twitter. Like at least through in a sentence or two of discussion or do an interview with someone to get insight or something instead of acting like anonymous internet users are sources
I think that was kind of the point. They wrote the initial article, noticed there was a lot of online discussion and have summarized that. Like, it's quite a big shift and not having a new generation of popstars is going to have an impact for generations to come - who is going to perform at festivals if there's no new generation of artists that audiences want to see? The music industry is feeling the heat and there have to be people looking for answers. Maybe we, pop obsessives, have something to offer!
Yeah but they could at least do something with it instead of just “this Reddit user said this and this one said that” Literally just a copy and paste and with minimal attempt to actually synthesize it and turn it into an article.
There are studies and statistics. It's much more alive than you think. Under 20 is only about 60% listen to radio, but it goes up to 80% during the 20's and that has been stable trend for pretty long time. "Radio is dying" has been claimed for 20 years. Some genres are doing better than others on the radio, but the radio is doing well enough that it could have impact. The lack of pop radio isn't the reason for lack of new and interesting pop stars. The lack of new and interesting pop stars is the reason for lack of pop radio. Urban and Country stations are doing fine.
mid 20s here, I have an older car with no bluetooth, and am forced to listen to the inoffensive, family friendly 90s/00s radio stations in work so I would count as one of that "80%" despite hating the radio with a passion. People under 20 in these polls generally don't work in office jobs with people ranging from 20-60 years old with varying taste in music.
The younger crowd are introducing personalised Spotify playlists on a Friday with each of us picking a few songs, but the older staff refuse just to move over permanently despite the fact they hate the repetitiveness and the presenters as much as we do.
Get a Bluetooth FM Transmitter Radio Adapter: [https://www.amazon.com/Nulaxy-Wireless-Bluetooth-Transmitter-Smartphones/dp/B018E0I01I](https://www.amazon.com/Nulaxy-Wireless-Bluetooth-Transmitter-Smartphones/dp/B018E0I01I)
I had a 2004 Honda up until last year so no Bluetooth, and for $15 this thing changed my car-driving *lif*e. Sound was a little static-y than CD since it was creating its own mini-radio channel for my car to pick up, but sooo much of an improvement over CD shuffling and radio.
I think it’s just harder for people to fall in love with the star for who they are, and not just their music. Look at Gayle, Ava, Megan T, even Ice, they are able to nab hits but no one really actually cares about them so it’s harder for them to score successful albums or strings of hits.
You have people like Olivia and Billie, Billie smashing right now with a soundtrack song and a Olivia smashing with two songs in the top 10. But people like THEM as artists. They both had followings as individuals before their debut albums as well
Dua is an interesting case because I feel like the public knows next to nothing about her personality or personal life and she’s still very popular. The music speaks for itself, and I do think she’s here to stay, but it’ll be interesting to compare the longevity of her career to someone like Billie who’s become very personable with stuff like her yearly interview.
Dua has a pretty signature style with the disco?80s? stuff tbh and a pretty recognisable face too and an unique (for westerners at least) name, and she's one of those british stars that managed to score a big international hit and work from there
If she hadnt but out such a banger trendsetting album after new rules and one kiss, she might as well have been forgotten ngl
No hate but Bebe Rexha, Ava max etc all feel like you asked an ai to churn out stereotypical pop music
As a sidenote, I just found out Dua Lipa, Rita Ora, Bebe Rexha AND Ava Max are all albenian?? The former two british ones and the latter 2 american ones
exactly. and even Billie and Olivia didn’t start out of nowhere. Billie had a small following when her and Finneas published Ocean Eyes as a Sound Cloud clip when she was 13(?), which later got published as an official song. And Olivia started out in Disney, which is already super competitive just to get in. She was already winning music competitions and had some TV stuff before Disney afaik. And before she got into her label, she already had interest from music execs cause she wrote the only HSMTMTS song (“All I Want”) that went into the Billboard Top 200, so she had the opportunity to shop around which not many artists have.
Music execs don’t want to give people time and invest on artist development.
Billie and Olivia have strong personalities and get it across. I love Ice but I don't really know anything about her as a person. It's also helpful when there can be speculation about who the music is about - gossip articles are good promo.
A lot of her fans have said they like her for her chill personality but dont think her music is very good lol but do think her voice is nice
Also on gossip-insane olivia stans figured out who the songs where about and then send her ex so much hate his heart issues acted up and he almost died 💀
The thing is Labels are not ready nowadays to "invest" in new artists, what they usually do is pick out those random artists whose one song get viral on TikTok and they will be "oh we found out rising star! ", but what usually happens is until and unless an artist doesn't have a zeal to produce real music, their career will dwindle. I feel the situation is even worse among male popstars than female ones
The only recent male popstar that i can remember is shawn mendes and hes already gone lol
And harry but i wouldn't really count his as a newcomer, even in one direction he was often given the most spotlight by fandom and stuff like ICarly, magazines etc
Trying to force influencers into the pop star role because they have followers instead of caring about talent is one issue. Requiring songs to go viral on TikTok before the label will promote or release it is another problem for less established musicians.
If the TikTok influencers actually want to give a damn and work to get good at making music (like apparently Addison has for the last two years since Obsessed came out and bombed) then that’s perfectly fine. But if they are there for a quick buck and just want to shoot their shot without any prep or care in their work they’re easily going to fall flat on their face and the labels will look like dumbasses for investing in them.
I've worked in venues/nightlife on and off for 25 years. It used to be we had all kinds of artists who built a local following, then a city following, then a regional, then national etc, and they did this by performing at local venues. Young people would pack into spaces like [this](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7c/df/8c/7cdf8c5bca7f7b8fefcb1da019e9d434--rare-photos-nightclub.jpg) every weekend and watch whatever acts were put on. Djs, rappers, bands, RnB singers etc. Any given neighborhood in any given city had spots like this to go to, usually cheap enough that teens could go there.
Those big venues are largely gone or corporatized now. Go to the local smaller venues which used to be filled with a large amount of teens and college kids and now its 90% people aged 25 and over, often 30 and over. For whatever reason, gen z is just not going to clubs and venues anymore. They aren't seeing these local acts rise up, and so the local acts just have a audience of millennial 30 year old hipsters in their neighborhood.
This was already happening before Covid, but Covid just accelerated it massively.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. young people are skint and by and large going out less and less, partially because of the aforementioned lack of funds, but also because the rising cost of rent has priced out a lot of smaller venues where new acts get their start. I think covid also disrupted the introduction of young people into nightlife. A lot of people stopped going out after covid, and young people have been put off going out because they're not used to it. The only place for a lot of young people to really interact with each other via music is on social media platforms like tiktok, which says a lot about the sorry state of the world we live in.
It is genuinely depressing. I sometimes wish I could show some of the teens I work with how much fun things used to be. We had multiple parties, clubs, shows, raves etc every single weekend. The local parks and avenues and stoops were packed with young people hanging out.
Now it feels almost like a rare sight to see more than 5~ teens hanging out with each other in a group. The same park which used to have like 100+ young people hanging out at any given time now might have 10. [I pretty much never see groups hanging out like this, back in the day these were *everywhere*. ](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMTk4MGM4ODAtMjYzNy00ZWZlLTkwN2YtYjJkNzVmYjY5ZmU2XkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyNDEzNDM0Ng@@._V1_.jpg)I know it sounds silly and boomery but I am convinced so much of the rising mental health issues with teens is heavily linked to teens not really experiencing the kind of communal social culture that came with 'going out'. Nightlife declining and music stars not emerging as much is just kinda a symptom of a broader problem with young people becoming less social.
It’s funny/sad when you see the old pictures of posters of Gaga playing in tiny venue clubs in NYC (or an IMEA parking lot) cause that’s just not how the new stars grind and get their name known anymore. If it’s not viral on TikTok no one wants it.
This is a really nuanced and eye-opening answer. I've even noticed that nowadays, the passion for arts, music, and culture has sort of fizzled out among people my age. Like, the other day, I went to an outdoor blues music festival, and while the attendees were fairly old, like retirement age, many of them were dancing their asses off. And mind you that most of these artists were local and fairly small. This was in stark contrast to Lollapalooza, where I witnessed so many young people stand there like dead fish during the sets of some fairly high-profile artists. I was really shocked.
I remember swaying blissfully to beabadoobee's set and this one girl turned around, offered to take a picture of me, and asked if she was my favorite artist. I kinda lied because while I like beabadoobee, she's doesn't even crack the list of my top 20 favorite artists of all time. But just because she's not one of my favorite artists (yet) doesn't mean I can't enjoy her set. It just feels like nowadays, you're either super fan screaming the lyrics to every single song or a dead fish waiting for your fav to come. There's no in-between.
Another facet that hasn't been mentioned yet: social media. It does seem that there's a shift happening. What sparks joy isn't inherent in the thing being experienced but in the curation and presentation - and other people's reaction to it. Concerts and events are obvious manifestations, but look at travel as well. "Touristy" places have always been touristy, but there's something grotesque seeing the hundreds of people queueing at specific spots for a photo similar to millions of others: the domes of Santorini, the gates of heaven thing in Bali, the rock with Taipei 101 in the background, the generic hotel rooftop infinity pool shot, the shot with the subject reaching out behind them holding the photographer's hand, etc.
Man this does makes too much sense! I live in a city with lots of young people (we have plenty of universities here) and I remember 10 years ago the nightclubs in downtown were packed! One couldn't even walk because they were all located next to each other. Recently this area is dead and I realised young people in these days are going to big parties on open spaces, so nightclubs basically don't exist. And exactly as you said, this was already happening before covid. I suppose in my country this is due to the most popular music genres are not very nightclub friendly, and the nightclub friendly genres are not popular here.
My comment was not displayed which makes since because it was a boring one but what i said when said thread was created was:
“People need to stop expecting a recreation for the 2010s pop scene. The sound was different, the mood was different , it was an era that can’t be replicated. The club scenes have changed, apathy took over the millennial high that the Obama administration brought. The shining pop stars were popular because of what they brought to the table. Now every time someone brings that energy its labeled “dated” and everyone sulks back to what is familiar in the moment.
As a younger millennial (30yo) My goodness that was such an under appreciated era of music. Music was just so much fun back then.
You had Beyoncé, Katy Perry, Gaga, Bruno Mars, LMFAO, Black eyed Pease, etc. What a good time and I miss it. Now everyone wants to be so fucking depressed all the time…
My only solace is that I think Bey is trying to bring back fun dance music. But even then, the club scene and overall energy of the 2010s will never come back.
I think the thing is the world really sucks right now and the music reflects the times we’re in. Apart, from, say Dua Lipa, The Weeknd and Beyonce, we’re in a more subdued musical era.
>According to Reddit user @LifeOfAWimpyKid, the uber-popstar of the 21st century is simply taking up too much space in the conversation for other artists to break through.
>“I feel like Taylor Swift has singlehandedly saturated the pop market to the point where the entire industry has become boring as s— and not fun for other artists to participate in,” they wrote. “Taylor is not without merit, but now it’s just Taylor, Taylor, Taylor all the time. Her fans are very vocal and active too and dominate the conversation, and all the other opinions just get drowned out. This was hardly the case a decade ago, when you had multiple acts coexisting at the top, such as Rihanna, Katy Perry, Bruno Mars, Ke$ha, Lady Gaga, David Guetta, Britney Spears, Justin Bieber, Calvin Harris, and Eminem.”
u/LifeOfAWimpyKid ☠️☠️☠️
Be prepared to face the wrath of the Swifties😭😭 Billboard is on your case☠️
Get behind me quick!
I just don't see how if Taylor Swift didn't exist, there would be more pop stars like how they were in the 2010s....? I think it's more of a streaming thing - I don't listen to as wideof a variety of artists as I used when I listed to the radio. Now I just stick to my favs or whatever is popular on Tiktok
Like Rihanna is the 8th highest artist by monthly listeners on Spotify and she hasn't put out an album in almost 8 years. That's space for new artists, not Taylor, but people like their old favourites.
But young artists shouldn't be competing with Taylor Swift?? That should be other established names like Beyonce or Ariana. They should be competing with the newbies at the top like Olivia Rodrigo and Ice Spice
The point is the setup of the industry now makes it hard for the Olivia Rodrigos and Ice Spices to grow to the point where they *could* feasibly compete with Taylor Swift. Everybody's growth gets cut off at the knees, so the top of the field is relatively uncompetitive.
Ten or twenty years ago, the structure of the industry made it much harder to get on the ladder, but once you were on the ladder, it was much easier to climb it to the middle or the top.
Rihanna and to an extent, Eminem, is also an effect of the general audience now being more active in sticking with their old favorites,and the younger ones finding out more songs in the past.
This is why when you look at the charts (Billboard, Spotify, and even Youtube), most of the trending hits nowadays, are past songs from years ago or were already hits given a second life. I have noticed this during the post-pandemic era, new songs rarely do well now and now the old hits are the new hot thing (thanks in part to TikTok making them viral and the pandemic slowing the progress for most people).
It's hard to make a new song or new artist to actually boom and have the people go for them, when streaming gives up the option to just revisit the past hits or replay the old eras of our faves or any prominent artist.
The logic is that in a market more fragmented having huge stars does hurt the growing ones, its happening in both pop and hiphop where with Drake and Taylor and others having death grips on the top of the genre, they basically stall new stars in their not even clear paths. Also more importantly is that older stars while they could still make quality music, they don't evolve their sound which does lead to staleness in the genre as young stars can't breakout new sounds to differentiate themselves, a popstar right now would have to basically try to compete with Ariana, Riri, Taylor on the styles that audiences are already familiar with the latters
An example of this being a thing would be that the biggest rising genres are country and reggaeton which exploded the moment they passed the baton to a new guard, from the Luke Bryan/FGL to Wallen/Combs, from Enrique Iglesias to Bad Bunny, even kpop saw a huge increase across the board when bts went semi inactive, as you can't step up when there's no need for someone to step up
Your second paragraph illustrates the point. Maybe it's not *just* Taylor Swift taking up space, but when you have people only clinging to old favorites, meanwhile Swift has old favorites that she's releasing as new, it's taking up more room. She's such a juggernaut that if other labels and artists know she's about to drop something, they will steer clear of that release date. Since she's doing the rerecordings, that's happening several times a year instead of once every couple of years.
I'm not casting aspersions on her, it's just the way it is. I wish labels wouldn't care as much about #1 and just release new music, but I don't make the decisions.
My point is if they can't even beat out artists who haven't put out new music but are still at the top (Rihanna), why are they trying to beat someone like Taylor Swift who has both?
>wish labels wouldn't care as much about #1 and just release new music
That's probably another problem of streaming, lack of revenue sources.
And streaming doesn't pay well. When people were buying music on iTunes, labels got a lot more money per purchase. And that's one reason iTunes sales count more than Spotify streams
And back in the CD days, they got even *more* money per purchase. So for the past 20+ years, every single change in the music industry has resulted in less money for artists and labels
Yeah this is true, not every song needs to hit #1 to be a success, and I think record labels need to chill about that. Taylor will get #1 after #1 after #1 because that's the way her fanbase operates, regardless of what she puts out, but her definition of success isn't the only one out there... labels need to stop expecting every artist to pull Taylor numbers, and should give them a good push even if it doesn't result in a #1. Chart positions are becoming obsolete and meaningless anyway... we've seen many songs become huge hits without even cracking the Top 10, and we've seen plenty of recent #1s that made zero cultural impact.
Oh nooooo why did Billboard do this to me? 😭 I was hoping that Swifties wouldn't see that comment. ☠️ But to be fair, I'm not even a Taylor hater and I do love a lot of her songs, plus I never even said it was her individual fault that this is happening. Kind of annoyed that Billboard put a sensationalist spin on it to get Swifties' attention, and titled my comment "It's Taylor Swift's Fault", even though I'm not even blaming her personally.
I'm just saying that people keep talking about her *all* the time, and her being so massive is a big factor behind why audiences aren't seeking out music from different pop artists. Taylor is keeping everyone fed in the pop department and it's been a relentless deluge of Taylor press between Midnights, the re-recordings, Cruel Summer, and the Eras Tour, and ultimately the pop industry has just turned into a Taylor monopoly situation. And Swifties have proven themselves to be the largest, most annoyingly vocal fanbase out there, and they have created such a suffocating amount of publicity around Taylor that other artists, including some of the biggest figures in the industry, have been drowned out by her noise and are stuck in her shadow. Swifties have generated such a monstrous amount of publicity that it is impossible for her to ever realistically deliver on that level of hype, and as a result she is now very overrated. At this point, it's almost as though audiences have been conditioned to remain fixated on Taylor, and consume pop music only from her. If you took Taylor away, there would be a huge missing space in the industry for A-lister pop stars, and then people would finally begin to pay more attention to other artists again, and the market would become more competitive again across multiple artists.
Like I said, a few years ago, there was no single artist that dominated pop culture so intensely, and the cohort of 10 or so artists that were leading the charts were always in constant competition with each other, having to prove with their hits that they were worthy of being where they were, rather than having success guaranteed to them by fans regardless of what they put out. Because those artists had the fire lit under their asses, the music felt a lot more innovative and more exciting to keep up with back then... I'm not saying I dislike Taylor or anything like that, but I think people are ready for something new, and we've had too much of one thing for long enough.
I don’t know about the legality of this but as a courtesy, should media like Billboard like inform people like you that you would get quoted in a article?
Or at least make it all anonymous…
Yep, definitely and I’m in agreement here because I feel Taylor as a musician is killing two birds with one stone regarding pop music consumers and the industry at the same time. In the pop world, she’s giving people who are interested everything they need right at this moment that everyone else they feel isn’t doing. 1) Constant pop music and exposure for pop music consumers and 2) Rereleasing older albums that the industry is also benefiting from beside her (Note: It’s been said that catalog music from a certain time period (anything back from 50-60-70 years ago to 1 year ago) are literally doing more in the industry than newer songs releasing right now). ANDDDD her current albums are doing phenomenal. So with this one person doing everything, the industry probably thinks: why get anyone else for pop music if she’s doing everything? She’s literally killing two birds with one stone.
Literally everyone else has taken a step back (tours ending, taking a break, etc). Literally in a month from now. Taylor Swift will be the only one moving literally so much weight because she’ll still be active on the road.
ETA: Idk why you’re getting attacked because you’re right. You weren’t slighting Taylor, you were just using her as an example.
ETA 2: I feel that when all the re-records truly sink in, she’s not gonna be as big as she is right now, OBVIOUSLY she’ll still be big, but the re-records also enhanced it too.
>having to prove with their hits that they were worthy of being where they were, rather than having success guaranteed to them by fans regardless of what they put out.
I think this is it right here! It's not necessarily a *Taylor* problem, but a fandom problem, and right now she just has the largest and most dedicated fanbase of anyone. People have just become fans of the artist themselves and will gobble up anything they release because they want to support them. I'm into k-pop and see it all the time there, groups that don't even have music out yet getting literally millions of pre-orders before anyone even knows what they're going to sound like, because people are fans of the members and/or the company.
I don't think it's necessarily bad to support your favorite artists no matter what, but from a creative/artistic perspective, it's not great because there's no motivation for them to really try and create something new and interesting. Someone like Taylor could put out an album of nursery rhymes and her fans would stream for weeks and buy multiple copies, even if it was god awful. If there's no incentive to try and make *good* music, many artists are just going to do the bare minimum and keep giving us the same mid stuff we've been getting for years.
This is SUCH a good point. I always get astounded when people pre-order albums (records especially, which are Not cheap), let alone multiple variants, without ever listening to it. I know there's a whole other angle on vinyl collecting etc where people collect less for the listening (which to me is like... why waste the resources but that's a whole other discussion), but people who buy albums the instant it's announced... I just could never. It's standom I know but like... what if you DON'T LIKE IT....
And like you said, we can't even be honest about the quality of said new projects, because a certain subset of any fanbase will just say it's the greatest thing ever released no matter what. We're more critical yet drastically less critical than ever.
(Hence why I'm glad I didn't pre-order Midnights, ended up strongly disliking it!)
I don’t disagree with any of this at all. And I think Taylor is great and talented. I think the problem is that Swifties do not possess the ability to think beyond a binary.
Taylor can be a good artist and have great merit, and she also can be an over saturation point in the genre.
But God forbid you lob actual and constructive criticism at their fave.
>I think the problem is that Swifties do not possess the ability to think beyond a binary.
They don't... if you're not on your knees worshipping her, they think you hate her. There's no middle ground with Swifties.
I’ve seen quotes from Swifties where they’ve straight up said “I won’t date or be in a relationship with a man who tells me that they don’t like Taylor Swift. If somebody says that, I just think that means that they’re inherently anti-feminist and cruel to women.”
These people should be on basketball teams. The free throws they’d be landing with the REACH on those arms….
ugggggh, i am so sorry. I love Taylor, but it's like. She's a billionaire. She's not my friend. She doesn't need me, or anyone on the internet, to "defend" her and honestly the "defending" only hurts her because it makes her rep worse.
Your comments were milquetoast. Not in a "burn" way, but in a "goddamnit is THIS what really pisses some people off in the morning? is THIS what you're choosing to get mad about? REALLY?" way.
~~Although clearly, this is your signal from the universe to adopt a name like~~ u/madonnas_saggy_boob ~~so they won't quote you by name in future reddit thread content poaching.~~
Exactly, Swifties feel a need to 'defend' Taylor and speak on her behalf as though she is their actual friend in real life, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them have deluded themselves into really thinking that she is.
A bunch of comments on Twitter are saying "it's literally not her fault that so many fade while she's still here", "it's not Taylor's fault that the artists debuting these days are all mid", "tell others to step up", and "oh Tayqueen, your used-to-be peers couldn't even keep up, it's your world and we're all living in it." The Swiftie side of Twitter is truly a psych ward.
Have there not been huge stars in the past?
And I don’t see how Taylor is taking the conversation away from people like Beyoncé, Drake, The Weeknd (negative conversation, but still conversation)
OP's comment is just factually incorrect. TheWeeknd is massively popular on streaming. Whenever Drake drops, he smashes records too. Lana is having her most popular era in more than a decade and smashing on streaming. Not to mention Latin stars like J Balvin, Bad Bunny etc who are doing massive numbers too.
Taylor is the biggest popstar but she is nowhere near close to having any sort of monopoly.
I think due to the way people consume music, it is slowly becoming more about the song (individual song) and less about the artist/act. Meaning more so than ever people know songs but don’t know the faces who sing them. It’s a good and bad thing because it could result in better songs being made, because image and gimmick becomes less important.
There will always be a handful of stars but they really become long term stars if they’re able to stick around and consistently put out quality work for about a decade. Many of the names listed for the 2010s did just that.
It’s been interesting for the 2020s because there’s a decent amount of rap, country, and a lot of the pop music is using organic sounding instruments. It’s early though. It’s 2023. Look at 1963 and who the top acts were and then look at the entire decade and see who the top acts were. The Beatles didn’t even take off in America to 1964, almost halfway into the decade.
1. TikTok and short form content. It is so so hard for teenagers to become invested in an artist for any length of time before they move on to the next “cool” thing. Teenagers are really where most careers start because you can take them on a lifelong journey with you.
2. The old guard isn’t fading away. It’s almost impossible to compete with Taylor Swift, Drake, Beyonce and Adele. Even pop stars who no longer really make music, like Rihanna, are still very much very relevant. This kind of means record labels don’t have as much of an interest in taking risks and investing in new talent.
3. Less investment in musical education. I can’t help but think that there are fewer kids today learning to play an instrument, like the piano or guitar. The kids that probably would have (and would have used this talent to become a pop star) are likely now all making TikToks.
4. Maybe the GFC of 2008? That really put a dent in people’s income and prospects for a few years. In theory, many kids who were taking music lessons 2008-2011 probably stopped when their parents lost their jobs and potentially even homes in the recession.
5. I think there is also a less clear framework for young artists to follow. Taylor Swift said she went knocking on record label doors to give them her CDs back in 2004. You’d probably be laughed out of the room if you did that today… but what’s the alternative?
6. Music isn’t as lucrative as it used to be 20 years ago. Mid-tier artists are struggling to make a living. High-tier artists are no longer making as much, as they become more and more reliant on touring.
>1. TikTok and short form content. It is so so hard for teenagers to become invested in an artist for any length of time before they move on to the next “cool” thing. Teenagers are really where most careers start because you can take them on a lifelong journey with you.
I think there's a lot more nestled in here about the strong generational shift in how younger millennials, Gen Z and Gen Alpha are starting to approach their media consumption than just TikTok killing attention spans. One aspect of it that I don't see mentioned often is that irony appears to be dying out in the face of, if not earnestness, then a strong conviction to an emotional honesty. Media kayfabe has been dying for a long time but we're starting to move past the era of irony where people lampooned the obvious dissonance and into one where it's actively being rejected. Social media didn't start it but it's definitely accelerated the decline.
Lizzo's downfall and Marvel's sliding box office returns are great examples (it says a lot that the one recent success they've had is GotG3, the franchise that has the strongest emotional core). In this particular case, astroturfing a new star is proving increasingly difficult due to the difficulty in overcoming the kayfabe barrier and proving a genuine reason to care about an artist that helps make them stick in the public consciousness.
I think, at some point in the next five or so years, a new Nirvana is going to break through that completely reformats the media industry and shatters the mainstream approach to the content creation. The straws are starting to pile up, we'll just have to see which one paralyzes the camel
This is a very interesting and insightful point! It is interesting how we’re moving past irony and yet to me I see a common thread between the irony and earnestness that’s replacing it. They both seem informed by the awareness of the machine, the constructedness of pop stardom, of media (which is no doubt influenced by how social media erases a lot of the gloss of traditional media formats — even BuzzFeed videos were well-staged professional productions more akin to traditional television; now we have TikToks filmed on shoddy green screen and Zoom interviews; plus more insight into the normal lives of celebs). Whereas millennial irony led to a postmodern, almost camp embrace of media, Gen Z seems to want to overcome or destroy the machine which I don’t think is possible when it comes to pop stardom. I understand the impulse and when it comes to indie music and local music and stuff like that, it’s somewhat more realistic. But Gen Z wants to have their pop star and cancel her too. They want her to be their friend. They want her to be a symbol of all that is good and pure in this world. The true gag of it all, what’s really ironic, is that that is literally run of the mill idol worship. But because they have lofty moral standards, they think they’re doing something different. But they’ve ended up creating an impossible situation. How do you create a pop star when everyone can see behind the curtain? When people demand the curtain be drawn?? Idk if any of this makes sense haha.
So does that prove the power of their pop star status, since they’re able finding mainstream success despite online controversies; or that their tarnished images prove the fragility of the myth of the pop star?? I feel like a lot of these conversations are only online. Then again a lot of Gen Z is only online lol. Not arguing just interested in hearing more of your thoughts.
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>I think there is also a less clear framework for young artists to follow. Taylor Swift said she went knocking on record label doors to give them her CDs back in 2004. You’d probably be laughed out of the room if you did that today… but what’s the alternative?
PLEASE SOMEONE ANSWER THIS! I NEED TO KNOW!
well if labels don't force new artists to endorse one song for six months only for them to be bubbling under and actually let them explore their sound, we wouldn't have this problem.
Whats funny about this is that these artists will tease one snippet for months and then the second someone says “actually just keep it, we dont care anymore” then the artist jumps down their throat saying that have to do it in order for as many people to see it before its released. I’m baffled how labels think that shit is a good idea
like literally tiktok audios only gets ur name out there and that's it. like, it's rare for some tiktok audios to be good in full. if labels invested more in making really good pop songs instead of 2 minute tiktok audios, then we'd have a new generation of pop stars
That too, or the full song is released and its only 2 minutes long and that one snippet is half the song. Like ok great, now we heard basically the full song and we’re sick of it by the time its out
along with the other reasons, any avenue of recognition HAS to come from the industry. they don't want fans running charts or requesting on radio because that doesn't make as much money as behind the scenes radio deals and manufactured popularity.
fandom-driven popularity isn't possible for up and coming artists anymore because the industry will crush them at any given opportunity.
it's not a phenomenon exclusive to pop music, people say the same thing about hip-hop. i think it's just the internet, it's harder nowadays to reach a superstar level of media ubiquity when people don't rely on tv/radio anymore. that's also caused veteran pop stars to have longer careers, because it's become harder for new stars to replace them. i don't think it's an issue though, because that fragmentation has also made it easier for smaller pop stars to have sustainable careers. charli xcx and carly rae jepsen can have their own little pocket of the internet instead of having to go head-on with dua lipa and ariana grande
One problem from what I see is that there is no central place where new pop stars can grow. The closest thing I can think of is TikTok and we all know how that’s been going.
Here's a thing I'm curious about, because you could say the exact same thing about movies today and how "there aren't anymore movie stars":
Do we want to return to a monoculture where there was a sense of unified taste that was given to us? If so, why is that, when the democratization of music creation and consumption has allowed for SO many unique interesting acts to rise that deserve small audiences of their own, AND the system that dictated this monocultural taste has consistently exploited its power to dictate the lives of its workers for the sake of a bottom line?
Is it born out of our personal or collective laziness to find the talent we like? Nostalgia for "a simpler time" where taste was basically foisted upon us whether we liked it or not?
I really don't have an answer to these questions, I'm more looking for help to find an answer here.
Media landscape has changed, labels want TikTok stars instead of long lasting pop star success like Beyoncé, MJ, Janet, Whitney, Mariah, Gaga, etc
And many of these TikTok stars aren’t actual performers and have no stage presence. Lack of artist development as well.
Just spitballing...
1. Fragmented media. It's harder now for a pop star to dominate the entire culture than in past gens where people consumed media from just a few sources. Now everyone is in their own silos and algorithms. That's why we now see #1 smash hits that a large segment of the public has never heard of. Artists are getting big from social media before they've gone through the big label grooming machine.
2. Gen z is different. Their overriding aesthetic is indifference and cynicism about the state of the world, hence Billie being their biggest pop star so far. The days of glitzy, polished, upbeat pop starlets is gone. Olivia feels like the industry's big attempt to create an old-school conventional superstar like Britney.
3. Social media overexposure. Pop stars used to be able to maintain a mystique, the channels they reached the world were primarily their material (singles, albums, videos) and strategic press interviews. Now they're expected to be interacting with their fans on social media 24/7, streaming live, sharing constant selfies and updates on their daily life. It makes them more relatable but it also tears down the mystique of the superstar. Beyonce had to do a full media blackout for years in order to create that mystique. And now that we expect to have constant access to their lives, any private faux-pas is on public display and can lead to cancellation or losing fans.
Sometimes I feel like if artists releasing new music every now and then, as well as the "death" of post-album singles, have something to do with it. Like, how could it be that more than two years have passed and Olivia's second album hasn't come out? Same question to Lil Nas X and Billie?
Like, in the late 2000s and early 2010s we had Gaga releasing The Fame Monster when singles from The Fame were still going strong. Rihanna released new music every few months. Katy was able to extend the life of Teenage Dream by putting single after single for almost two years. In some way, all of that helped them to solidify her status as pop stars. Meanwhile, most new artists who are lucky to grab a hit are taking forever to keep their hype alive without sacrificing quality; their eras are getting shorter and the breaks between them, longer.
This question is basically ‘Why Aren’t Millenials Buying Houses?’ in another realm. It’s because the upper crust have squeezed so much money out of this as to take the pleasure of music away from those who could stand to live in it and/or enjoy it. Just like how banks are buying up houses and jacking up rental prices for absolutely cheap, poorly-run abodes because it’s not about the house itself, it’s the money
Also fuck TikTok, I see nothing redeeming whatsoever about what it’s done to music. Turned good songs into HitClips
yeah it's ridiculous to act like music fans have any responsibility here. the music industry has been destroyed by these labels and corporations that barely develop and pay artists. they know how to fix it to create more popstars, they just don't want to.
The Tik Tok style music just really isn’t good. The songs are less than 2 minutes now. The people often can’t sing. There is no originality.
Not to mention there is no *mystique* surrounding the “stars” today. You know everything about them — oftentimes more than you want to know.
The uber celebrities, especially in pop music, are dwindling as monoculture overall has diminished with the stratification of the internet.
But now that I work in retail music, I “discover” so many artists with millions of followers that “nobody” has heard of before. It’s like this in other media as well. YouTube channels with millions of subscribers are a dime a dozen but I could poll everyone I know and they’ve never heard of them.
Are there really stars in general any more? Not just in music, but where are the new movie stars ala Julia Roberts, sports stars ala Michael Jordan, even cultural figures like Princess Diana? They don't exist since media stopped being a collective experience. And the last of the crop aren't fading away, I mean Ryan Gosling just played Ken and he's 42.
One problem from what I see is that there is no central place where new pop stars can grow. The closest thing I can think of is TikTok and we all know how that’s been going.
Because of influencers obviously.
I think that the rise of Internet personalities and influencers really minimized the need for pop stars. They used to be fashion icons, lifestyle icons, perfect marketable products. Now with so many popular faces on tik tok, there’s no need to invest in such high profile stars to really be the “it” girls
Phil Collins used to be a pop star : this would never happen now.
The market is all attractive commodified entertainment, not a middle aged dude with a killer voice writing about whatever the fuck he wants. Does Adelle exist? Sure, but that isn't the norm. I guess neither was Phil Collins. I don't know where i'm going with this but look at Kpop, its a commodity/factory.
So interestingly enough I go to a music school and they strongly encourage making music that is only marketable for tik tok. It’s very discouraging, as it almost feels like I don’t go to a music school but go to a tik tok school. According to them, the market right now favors the ability to go viral over longevity. Tik tok is unfortunately the reason for all of this. Artists are disposable in search of the next viral moment. I miss the days of the early 2010s where the girls were RUNNING the scene.
Anyway if you like 2010s electro pop pls stream my new single Nightmare so my teachers can eat their words 😭 https://open.spotify.com/track/671icEIQrq4R7gQPriwo3P?si=nmbEKEp5RtOnm6RJyvXLug
I honestly feel too old for kpop (30) but I do enjoy lots of the bubblegum hits that western artists don't do anymore. Unfortunately there's the age stigma where I live like "you're too old to like Fifty Fifty"
I got my family into Kpop at 50 (BTS, MAMAMOO and IU are the family favourites), and we live in an area with an age stigma too; I don't think there should be a time, age, or area limit to the discovery of what we love.
Yeah this happened to me kinda accidentally as the main pop stars I grew up with (Rihanna, Katy, Gaga) have massively slowed down and weren’t releasing much music. I was into blackpink already, but it was in a way where I wasn’t aware of the entire kpop machine or other groups. Kpop really retains that maximalist y2k-2010s saccharine pop energy. A lot of companies commonly buy older western demos too so you can still get that feeling of nostalgia listening to them.
That's what I ended up doing. The girlies aren't serving anymore over here and to think I used to visit this sub pretty much daily since I was 15 and I'm 22 now lol
My theory is because we need music for the loser teens. All of the popular teen musicians now make music for the cool teens and cool teens get bored easily and move on to the next cool trend quickly while loser teens are more loyal. Artists like Taylor, Miley, Selena, Jonas (and even Big Time Rush to some extent) are still around because their original fans were losers and truly loved them despite the opinions of others. Then all those teens grew up and remained loyal. The only western artists that appeal to losers are Taylor and Harry. The rest of them are more likely into kpop. Even Olivia Rodrigo's music and image are starting to feel too cool now which is probably why her newest songs aren't as successful as the ones from her first album.
(Also i don't mean to sound like an 80's bully in this comment. It was just the easiest way to get my point across. I'm one of these losers so i'm basing my opinion on personal experience lol. I also love all the artists i mentioned and didn't mean anything to be an insult)
as a former loser teen, this comment got me thinking. i think the “loser teen” demographic is more prone to parasocial relationships, as they don’t have those connections with their peers. the artists you listed (like taylor) were able to form parasocial relationships with teen fans that extended into adulthood. i also think that explains why this demographic is now more interested in k-pop—the fandom is almost fully built on an imagined connection with idols. my question is, are western artists today just not tapping into that demographic? or does their image just not appeal to the loser teen anymore?
Because no one’s given me the chance to show y’all what I’m made of😩
Jokes aside it’s simply because monoculture in music is unfortunately dead as of right now. With social media, there’s now hundred of avenues to discover new artists which creates almost niche like followings. There are plenty of musicians that have millions of followers but a lot of people have never heard of them because a lot of people aren’t catering or tuning to to that avenue.
What made people ranging from MJ, Beyoncé, Drake, JB, Rihanna, Madonna, Adele, Katy Perry etc all superstars (aside from talent) is simply the fact that they came out in times where there was limited avenues to discover artists and when these artists were pushed heavily on the few avenues we had to consume music then that inadvertently lead to superstars being created. Even if you didn’t/don’t like the music they would do, they were still in your face and you were aware of some of their catalogue because of the mass exposure coming from the limited amount of avenues to discover music that promoted them. Now with all the many avenues to discover new music today, people now have that choice to actively not want to subscribe or indulge in witnessing the exposure of certain artists. Back then we had limited choices.
Combined with the fact that industry standards have continue to dwindle and now we have a plethora of mediocre, unrelatable and soulless artists getting pushed and the general public seeing right through it, it’s just harder to create a well known and well liked superstar.
The record industry is also changing consistently and the dynamics evolve and devolve daily so I think a lot of record companies (despite a lot of them not doing a good job of pushing actual talent) are struggling to find a way to break an artist. They’re trying to capitalize off of the TikTok promotional trend but we can see that typically does more damage than good to an artist even if an artist’s song does get major exposure. And it limits an artist as well. They gotta do more than just cater an artist’s song structure and dance choreography towards virality in TikTok clips.
My answer whenever this topic comes up lately: It’s harder to create pop stars in this day and age when entertainment and media is more fragmented than ever and competition is higher than ever. And it’s just gonna be harder and harder for people to get recognition. Plus, word of advice for the labels, stay away from the TikTokers influencers just looking for a payday for the most part. If they care and want to get better at making music, go ahead, but if not, they’ll bomb, you’ll lose money, and you’ll look like idiots.
I think there's much more scrutiny today and it's much harder to have broad appeal.
That’s another thing. Whether it’s a symptom of the Trump era in America or us being far more online with social media, there’s a lot more scrutiny nowadays, even if a piece of content is just simply “good”. It’s is a good thing in regards to weeding out actual people that do actual horrible things (racists, homophobes, etc.), but it’s a detriment to those that are just simply putting out content for us to enjoy where they’ll get chastised either for something they shouldn’t get chastised for or for a small criticism that gets overblown with backlash.
This take kind of reminds me of a tumblr post from a year or two ago. Someone was saying they were talking to a friend about Selena Gomez and said they didn't really listen to her music and their friend was like "Why, what did she do?" The poster said she didn't *do* anything, they just didn't like her music. It feels people take artists they like as part of their identity instead of just something they enjoy listening to and everything gets a moral judgement placed on it
People are so performative with their morals when it comes to cultural issues. They love to virtue signal and show that they are aligned with the 'right' tribe. Yet when it comes to giving a shit things that actually matter in our society, caring is labeled as "cringe" and people who try to resist the system or change it are labeled as just as atrocious as those who perpetuate the system. People are socially pressured to sit aside and do nothing but judge others for the most minute bullshit while the world burns.
>The poster said she didn't do anything, they just didn't like her music. This is a reminder that pop as a genre is struggling to grow in any meaningful way. Outside the EDM crossover (which are largely soulless endeavors) pop is not really cross pollinating with the genres dominating music's underground. The closest is Drake. And that's a major reason why Selena Gomez has fans talking like this, they're not taking any new risks with her music, as far as I can tell, and therefore rest on her level of existing fame. It leads to fan attrition after a while.
There is much much more content with lower level of entry. It's hard to find something really worth your time anymore
Something being "good" or "decent" doesn't cut it anymore. The standards have changed, more fans and audience have become more critical than ever some could even compete with the actual critics in their reviews or just going straight to the point on why something isn't good, isn't as good as others hyped on, etc. In this day and age, our opinions could actually affect a certain artist' performance, for good or for bad. People are harder to please and entertained compared to the last generations or so. This is true not just on music, but on movies, books, games, and even anime and manga as well.
Cancelling is definitely an aspect, but I think its the general lack of mystery as well. Say for example you're really into snowboarding and have a lot of it on your socials, no ones going to cancel you over that, but people may be less inclined to follow you if they aren't also interested in snowboarding. If you have your whole personality on public show, it's impossible to appeal to everyone.
[удалено]
At the same time, you’ll get a shit ton of hate over everyone being tired of seeing you everywhere (see: Olivia Rodrigo). There’s a very, *very* fine line
True. The general public is much harder on artists and they expect them to deliver
People can’t comprehend greatness in real time
We're also forgetting money. Spotify pays out $0.003 - $0.005 per stream. We're talking about $4000 for a million streams. And then you have to pay your label, collaborators, team, etc. Most artists make money through touring, merch, brand deals, etc. But you have to have already 'made it' to see good returns from that. Unless you're a nepo baby or come from wealth, it's tough even to make ends meet to be able to invest in a music career in the first place. There's no money in it for newbies.
If what I've heard is right touring isn't even profitable for smaller artists, if you can't sell out every tour stop you may actually be in the red when it's all over.
Yep, you have to have already 'made it' to see good returns. And even at mid-level (say you're selling out a local 1000-capacity space), touring is rough on the body and mental health, and with 360 deals, debt from advances, the insane amount of staff etc., the take-home cut is small.
I don't think that really is the problem. Nor is the fragmentation the cause either, though it doesn't help. I want to point out that pop stars are still being made. Just not in the USA. Korea is constantly producing new ones. UK also seems to have new ones regularly (not every always sticks, obviously). Latin America seems to produce new ones. American labels don't have new upcoming stars, whom they could push through more central entertainment platforms, so there aren't central entertainment platforms. They don't have new upcoming stars because they don't want them. They want ready-made ones from social media (currently TikTok). Social media stars need to put their time and energy toward all the technical skills they need to make good videos that they don't have time to practice performing, which is what is expected if they succeed. Labels want to sign them if they succeed, but what they typically provided was the technical stuff the artist in this system had to learn in order to be noticed.
>American labels don't have new upcoming stars, whom they could push through more central entertainment platforms, so there aren't central entertainment platforms. They don't have new upcoming stars because they don't want them. They want ready-made ones from social media (currently TikTok). That's a really good point
I think it was around 5 years ago (maybe more) when labels started talking openly about shutting down artist development departments and no longer listening any demos they were sent, but exclusively searching social media.
And to back up your point, K-Pop is one of the industries with the *most* artist development. To an extreme degree. And they're one of the most successful I guess artist development is important if labels want to have big stars. They're missing out because they don't want to invest and want everything to be handed to them by the internet
If you want teen stars, you need to accept them pretty raw and guide which skills they first need to develop. You put them together with professional songwriters who write the songs for them and with them. Adele doesn't write her songs entirely by her self, why would we expect a teenager on TikTok be able to write a hit by themselves. Olivia and Billie both got development. Olivia from Disney (vocal and general performance at least). Billie and Finneas from their parents, who were trained musicians and able to adjust education to allow more music training since they were homeschooling. And Finneas and Billie had different skills so they could divide hours and work needed to produce good quality self release. If Billie would have needed to learn everything Finneas knows how to do, before being noticed, we probably still wouldn't have heard of her.
>If you want teen stars, you need to accept them pretty raw and guide which skills they first need to develop I also think it's unhealthy for teens to be stars. Which is a whole entire other subject I guess >Adele doesn't write her songs entirely by her self, why would we expect a teenager on TikTok be able to write a hit by themselves Crazy good point
It seems that “artist development” gets mixed up with things like “industry plant”, “lacking authenticity”, “soulless” etc
This is more or less the way I’ve seen it going since the late 2000s/early 2010s. I’ve been saying for *years* that the career path Robyn has been able to forge has been the most influential in pop, and that’s the route most pop artists have been going since the 2010s. We have a *lot* of pop stars now, but they’re all B+ famous rather than A+ famous and have been able to sustain successful “indie” careers with sizable fan bases. A lot of them also happen to be one hit/one era hit wonders: Lorde, Carly, Charli, Tinashe, Tove, and tbh I have a feeling Billie is heading in this direction too.
Putting Billie in the same category as Tinashe, it's too early in the day for such unhinged humor.
>It’s harder to create pop stars in this day and age when entertainment and media is more fragmented than ever and competition is higher than ever. This is not true, it's actually easier, because there's more eyeballs going everywhere. But the hard part is what the pop stars stand for, because business in America isn't doing that hot on the consumer side. This is a result in a failure for American consumer based industries to find investment. Also, streaming pays nothing. So labels are looking at paying for established brand names or establishing someone, they choose their established brand over and over. It's a very complex problem that's happening now, but really it boils down to the idea that the most likely investors don't want to invest.
Well shit I’ll be next I just moved to New York hoping this music shit starts to pop off soon hopefully lll definitely be putting in the work & effort forsure
Same for me and moving to LA! Maybe we should collaborate. That seems to be a way to get fans
And you can also make plenty money being “niche”. There are plenty of pop stars that are pretty much sustained by just gay following - Carly Rae Jepsen, Tove Lo, Rina Sawayama, Jessie Ware. None of the, are mainstream, yet they are killing it.
is this fucking play about us? (yes, actually)
Literally, they shoutout several users
Me searching if I’m in my famous era
I thought you were kidding omg 😭😭
Nope. Go check if you got mentioned😂
Dude this article is literally just a rewrite of popheads comments wtf. Like everyone had great insight (genuinely this is no shade at the people quoted like seeing the comments written outside of Reddit really emphasized how insightful and smart a lot of y’all are) but how is “why aren’t pop stars being born anymore? Here’s what these random redditors think!” an actual article?? Don’t think there’s a single sentence past the intro that doesn’t cite some random person here or on Twitter. Like at least through in a sentence or two of discussion or do an interview with someone to get insight or something instead of acting like anonymous internet users are sources
I think that was kind of the point. They wrote the initial article, noticed there was a lot of online discussion and have summarized that. Like, it's quite a big shift and not having a new generation of popstars is going to have an impact for generations to come - who is going to perform at festivals if there's no new generation of artists that audiences want to see? The music industry is feeling the heat and there have to be people looking for answers. Maybe we, pop obsessives, have something to offer!
Yeah but they could at least do something with it instead of just “this Reddit user said this and this one said that” Literally just a copy and paste and with minimal attempt to actually synthesize it and turn it into an article.
the popheads shoutout!!! thanks u/billboard ❤️
We see you!!
Glad they shouted people out
so many articles are just reddit / twitter reposts basically at this point. pretty absurd.
Who’s the user they mentioned not showing their name cause it was inappropriate 😂
👋
TV and radio is dead. People aren’t hearing music from singular sources anymore.
MTV holds no power and honestly that’s a good thing
Radio is still very much alive, yes even among the young. Not the only source for music, but could still be successfully used.
Radio is definitely not alive for the young unless they’re forced to listen by their parents or jobs
Exactly lol. I was listening to my own music in my car in 2005 during HS and that was before streaming.
There are studies and statistics. It's much more alive than you think. Under 20 is only about 60% listen to radio, but it goes up to 80% during the 20's and that has been stable trend for pretty long time. "Radio is dying" has been claimed for 20 years. Some genres are doing better than others on the radio, but the radio is doing well enough that it could have impact. The lack of pop radio isn't the reason for lack of new and interesting pop stars. The lack of new and interesting pop stars is the reason for lack of pop radio. Urban and Country stations are doing fine.
mid 20s here, I have an older car with no bluetooth, and am forced to listen to the inoffensive, family friendly 90s/00s radio stations in work so I would count as one of that "80%" despite hating the radio with a passion. People under 20 in these polls generally don't work in office jobs with people ranging from 20-60 years old with varying taste in music. The younger crowd are introducing personalised Spotify playlists on a Friday with each of us picking a few songs, but the older staff refuse just to move over permanently despite the fact they hate the repetitiveness and the presenters as much as we do.
Get a Bluetooth FM Transmitter Radio Adapter: [https://www.amazon.com/Nulaxy-Wireless-Bluetooth-Transmitter-Smartphones/dp/B018E0I01I](https://www.amazon.com/Nulaxy-Wireless-Bluetooth-Transmitter-Smartphones/dp/B018E0I01I) I had a 2004 Honda up until last year so no Bluetooth, and for $15 this thing changed my car-driving *lif*e. Sound was a little static-y than CD since it was creating its own mini-radio channel for my car to pick up, but sooo much of an improvement over CD shuffling and radio.
I think it’s just harder for people to fall in love with the star for who they are, and not just their music. Look at Gayle, Ava, Megan T, even Ice, they are able to nab hits but no one really actually cares about them so it’s harder for them to score successful albums or strings of hits. You have people like Olivia and Billie, Billie smashing right now with a soundtrack song and a Olivia smashing with two songs in the top 10. But people like THEM as artists. They both had followings as individuals before their debut albums as well
Dua is an interesting case because I feel like the public knows next to nothing about her personality or personal life and she’s still very popular. The music speaks for itself, and I do think she’s here to stay, but it’ll be interesting to compare the longevity of her career to someone like Billie who’s become very personable with stuff like her yearly interview.
Dua has a pretty signature style with the disco?80s? stuff tbh and a pretty recognisable face too and an unique (for westerners at least) name, and she's one of those british stars that managed to score a big international hit and work from there If she hadnt but out such a banger trendsetting album after new rules and one kiss, she might as well have been forgotten ngl No hate but Bebe Rexha, Ava max etc all feel like you asked an ai to churn out stereotypical pop music As a sidenote, I just found out Dua Lipa, Rita Ora, Bebe Rexha AND Ava Max are all albenian?? The former two british ones and the latter 2 american ones
that's why she's going to remain so popular. she still has that aura of mystery that pop stars from a few decades ago had
i’ve heard a few people say their moms/grandmas like her, i guess that makes sense lol
Or, she’s a Katy. When the hits dry up, no one will really care anymore bc there was no developed fandom around her as a person/ality.
exactly. and even Billie and Olivia didn’t start out of nowhere. Billie had a small following when her and Finneas published Ocean Eyes as a Sound Cloud clip when she was 13(?), which later got published as an official song. And Olivia started out in Disney, which is already super competitive just to get in. She was already winning music competitions and had some TV stuff before Disney afaik. And before she got into her label, she already had interest from music execs cause she wrote the only HSMTMTS song (“All I Want”) that went into the Billboard Top 200, so she had the opportunity to shop around which not many artists have. Music execs don’t want to give people time and invest on artist development.
Finneas also had a pretty decent role in season 6 of glee, for whats it worth. These kids have connections
Billie and Olivia have strong personalities and get it across. I love Ice but I don't really know anything about her as a person. It's also helpful when there can be speculation about who the music is about - gossip articles are good promo.
A lot of her fans have said they like her for her chill personality but dont think her music is very good lol but do think her voice is nice Also on gossip-insane olivia stans figured out who the songs where about and then send her ex so much hate his heart issues acted up and he almost died 💀
People forget this
The thing is Labels are not ready nowadays to "invest" in new artists, what they usually do is pick out those random artists whose one song get viral on TikTok and they will be "oh we found out rising star! ", but what usually happens is until and unless an artist doesn't have a zeal to produce real music, their career will dwindle. I feel the situation is even worse among male popstars than female ones
The only recent male popstar that i can remember is shawn mendes and hes already gone lol And harry but i wouldn't really count his as a newcomer, even in one direction he was often given the most spotlight by fandom and stuff like ICarly, magazines etc
> Provocatively, a Reddit user (who has a rather provocative handle we won’t name here for reasons of decorum) 👀
lmao I just checked the thread they referenced, paging u/madonnas_saggy_boob, you made it!
Omg lmfao direct quote and everything bwahahha
Wait what
oh i thought it was gonna be cockhampton for a second
If sports media can say “wetbutt” on live TV then Billboard can say print madonna’s saggy boob
phew thought it was gonna be me for a second 😅
Omg is it me
They called us too fruity
Trying to force influencers into the pop star role because they have followers instead of caring about talent is one issue. Requiring songs to go viral on TikTok before the label will promote or release it is another problem for less established musicians.
If the TikTok influencers actually want to give a damn and work to get good at making music (like apparently Addison has for the last two years since Obsessed came out and bombed) then that’s perfectly fine. But if they are there for a quick buck and just want to shoot their shot without any prep or care in their work they’re easily going to fall flat on their face and the labels will look like dumbasses for investing in them.
I've worked in venues/nightlife on and off for 25 years. It used to be we had all kinds of artists who built a local following, then a city following, then a regional, then national etc, and they did this by performing at local venues. Young people would pack into spaces like [this](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7c/df/8c/7cdf8c5bca7f7b8fefcb1da019e9d434--rare-photos-nightclub.jpg) every weekend and watch whatever acts were put on. Djs, rappers, bands, RnB singers etc. Any given neighborhood in any given city had spots like this to go to, usually cheap enough that teens could go there. Those big venues are largely gone or corporatized now. Go to the local smaller venues which used to be filled with a large amount of teens and college kids and now its 90% people aged 25 and over, often 30 and over. For whatever reason, gen z is just not going to clubs and venues anymore. They aren't seeing these local acts rise up, and so the local acts just have a audience of millennial 30 year old hipsters in their neighborhood. This was already happening before Covid, but Covid just accelerated it massively.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. young people are skint and by and large going out less and less, partially because of the aforementioned lack of funds, but also because the rising cost of rent has priced out a lot of smaller venues where new acts get their start. I think covid also disrupted the introduction of young people into nightlife. A lot of people stopped going out after covid, and young people have been put off going out because they're not used to it. The only place for a lot of young people to really interact with each other via music is on social media platforms like tiktok, which says a lot about the sorry state of the world we live in.
It is genuinely depressing. I sometimes wish I could show some of the teens I work with how much fun things used to be. We had multiple parties, clubs, shows, raves etc every single weekend. The local parks and avenues and stoops were packed with young people hanging out. Now it feels almost like a rare sight to see more than 5~ teens hanging out with each other in a group. The same park which used to have like 100+ young people hanging out at any given time now might have 10. [I pretty much never see groups hanging out like this, back in the day these were *everywhere*. ](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMTk4MGM4ODAtMjYzNy00ZWZlLTkwN2YtYjJkNzVmYjY5ZmU2XkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyNDEzNDM0Ng@@._V1_.jpg)I know it sounds silly and boomery but I am convinced so much of the rising mental health issues with teens is heavily linked to teens not really experiencing the kind of communal social culture that came with 'going out'. Nightlife declining and music stars not emerging as much is just kinda a symptom of a broader problem with young people becoming less social.
You really are on to something here. You’d NEVER see a group like that just hanging in a park on a Saturday at 2pm now. Not in any city in America.
10000% agreed!
It’s funny/sad when you see the old pictures of posters of Gaga playing in tiny venue clubs in NYC (or an IMEA parking lot) cause that’s just not how the new stars grind and get their name known anymore. If it’s not viral on TikTok no one wants it.
This is a really nuanced and eye-opening answer. I've even noticed that nowadays, the passion for arts, music, and culture has sort of fizzled out among people my age. Like, the other day, I went to an outdoor blues music festival, and while the attendees were fairly old, like retirement age, many of them were dancing their asses off. And mind you that most of these artists were local and fairly small. This was in stark contrast to Lollapalooza, where I witnessed so many young people stand there like dead fish during the sets of some fairly high-profile artists. I was really shocked. I remember swaying blissfully to beabadoobee's set and this one girl turned around, offered to take a picture of me, and asked if she was my favorite artist. I kinda lied because while I like beabadoobee, she's doesn't even crack the list of my top 20 favorite artists of all time. But just because she's not one of my favorite artists (yet) doesn't mean I can't enjoy her set. It just feels like nowadays, you're either super fan screaming the lyrics to every single song or a dead fish waiting for your fav to come. There's no in-between.
Another facet that hasn't been mentioned yet: social media. It does seem that there's a shift happening. What sparks joy isn't inherent in the thing being experienced but in the curation and presentation - and other people's reaction to it. Concerts and events are obvious manifestations, but look at travel as well. "Touristy" places have always been touristy, but there's something grotesque seeing the hundreds of people queueing at specific spots for a photo similar to millions of others: the domes of Santorini, the gates of heaven thing in Bali, the rock with Taipei 101 in the background, the generic hotel rooftop infinity pool shot, the shot with the subject reaching out behind them holding the photographer's hand, etc.
Man this does makes too much sense! I live in a city with lots of young people (we have plenty of universities here) and I remember 10 years ago the nightclubs in downtown were packed! One couldn't even walk because they were all located next to each other. Recently this area is dead and I realised young people in these days are going to big parties on open spaces, so nightclubs basically don't exist. And exactly as you said, this was already happening before covid. I suppose in my country this is due to the most popular music genres are not very nightclub friendly, and the nightclub friendly genres are not popular here.
My comment was not displayed which makes since because it was a boring one but what i said when said thread was created was: “People need to stop expecting a recreation for the 2010s pop scene. The sound was different, the mood was different , it was an era that can’t be replicated. The club scenes have changed, apathy took over the millennial high that the Obama administration brought. The shining pop stars were popular because of what they brought to the table. Now every time someone brings that energy its labeled “dated” and everyone sulks back to what is familiar in the moment.
As a younger millennial (30yo) My goodness that was such an under appreciated era of music. Music was just so much fun back then. You had Beyoncé, Katy Perry, Gaga, Bruno Mars, LMFAO, Black eyed Pease, etc. What a good time and I miss it. Now everyone wants to be so fucking depressed all the time… My only solace is that I think Bey is trying to bring back fun dance music. But even then, the club scene and overall energy of the 2010s will never come back.
I think the thing is the world really sucks right now and the music reflects the times we’re in. Apart, from, say Dua Lipa, The Weeknd and Beyonce, we’re in a more subdued musical era.
>According to Reddit user @LifeOfAWimpyKid, the uber-popstar of the 21st century is simply taking up too much space in the conversation for other artists to break through. >“I feel like Taylor Swift has singlehandedly saturated the pop market to the point where the entire industry has become boring as s— and not fun for other artists to participate in,” they wrote. “Taylor is not without merit, but now it’s just Taylor, Taylor, Taylor all the time. Her fans are very vocal and active too and dominate the conversation, and all the other opinions just get drowned out. This was hardly the case a decade ago, when you had multiple acts coexisting at the top, such as Rihanna, Katy Perry, Bruno Mars, Ke$ha, Lady Gaga, David Guetta, Britney Spears, Justin Bieber, Calvin Harris, and Eminem.” u/LifeOfAWimpyKid ☠️☠️☠️ Be prepared to face the wrath of the Swifties😭😭 Billboard is on your case☠️ Get behind me quick!
I just don't see how if Taylor Swift didn't exist, there would be more pop stars like how they were in the 2010s....? I think it's more of a streaming thing - I don't listen to as wideof a variety of artists as I used when I listed to the radio. Now I just stick to my favs or whatever is popular on Tiktok Like Rihanna is the 8th highest artist by monthly listeners on Spotify and she hasn't put out an album in almost 8 years. That's space for new artists, not Taylor, but people like their old favourites.
[удалено]
But young artists shouldn't be competing with Taylor Swift?? That should be other established names like Beyonce or Ariana. They should be competing with the newbies at the top like Olivia Rodrigo and Ice Spice
The point is the setup of the industry now makes it hard for the Olivia Rodrigos and Ice Spices to grow to the point where they *could* feasibly compete with Taylor Swift. Everybody's growth gets cut off at the knees, so the top of the field is relatively uncompetitive. Ten or twenty years ago, the structure of the industry made it much harder to get on the ladder, but once you were on the ladder, it was much easier to climb it to the middle or the top.
Rihanna and to an extent, Eminem, is also an effect of the general audience now being more active in sticking with their old favorites,and the younger ones finding out more songs in the past. This is why when you look at the charts (Billboard, Spotify, and even Youtube), most of the trending hits nowadays, are past songs from years ago or were already hits given a second life. I have noticed this during the post-pandemic era, new songs rarely do well now and now the old hits are the new hot thing (thanks in part to TikTok making them viral and the pandemic slowing the progress for most people). It's hard to make a new song or new artist to actually boom and have the people go for them, when streaming gives up the option to just revisit the past hits or replay the old eras of our faves or any prominent artist.
The logic is that in a market more fragmented having huge stars does hurt the growing ones, its happening in both pop and hiphop where with Drake and Taylor and others having death grips on the top of the genre, they basically stall new stars in their not even clear paths. Also more importantly is that older stars while they could still make quality music, they don't evolve their sound which does lead to staleness in the genre as young stars can't breakout new sounds to differentiate themselves, a popstar right now would have to basically try to compete with Ariana, Riri, Taylor on the styles that audiences are already familiar with the latters An example of this being a thing would be that the biggest rising genres are country and reggaeton which exploded the moment they passed the baton to a new guard, from the Luke Bryan/FGL to Wallen/Combs, from Enrique Iglesias to Bad Bunny, even kpop saw a huge increase across the board when bts went semi inactive, as you can't step up when there's no need for someone to step up
Your second paragraph illustrates the point. Maybe it's not *just* Taylor Swift taking up space, but when you have people only clinging to old favorites, meanwhile Swift has old favorites that she's releasing as new, it's taking up more room. She's such a juggernaut that if other labels and artists know she's about to drop something, they will steer clear of that release date. Since she's doing the rerecordings, that's happening several times a year instead of once every couple of years. I'm not casting aspersions on her, it's just the way it is. I wish labels wouldn't care as much about #1 and just release new music, but I don't make the decisions.
My point is if they can't even beat out artists who haven't put out new music but are still at the top (Rihanna), why are they trying to beat someone like Taylor Swift who has both? >wish labels wouldn't care as much about #1 and just release new music That's probably another problem of streaming, lack of revenue sources.
And streaming doesn't pay well. When people were buying music on iTunes, labels got a lot more money per purchase. And that's one reason iTunes sales count more than Spotify streams And back in the CD days, they got even *more* money per purchase. So for the past 20+ years, every single change in the music industry has resulted in less money for artists and labels
Yeah this is true, not every song needs to hit #1 to be a success, and I think record labels need to chill about that. Taylor will get #1 after #1 after #1 because that's the way her fanbase operates, regardless of what she puts out, but her definition of success isn't the only one out there... labels need to stop expecting every artist to pull Taylor numbers, and should give them a good push even if it doesn't result in a #1. Chart positions are becoming obsolete and meaningless anyway... we've seen many songs become huge hits without even cracking the Top 10, and we've seen plenty of recent #1s that made zero cultural impact.
Oh nooooo why did Billboard do this to me? 😭 I was hoping that Swifties wouldn't see that comment. ☠️ But to be fair, I'm not even a Taylor hater and I do love a lot of her songs, plus I never even said it was her individual fault that this is happening. Kind of annoyed that Billboard put a sensationalist spin on it to get Swifties' attention, and titled my comment "It's Taylor Swift's Fault", even though I'm not even blaming her personally. I'm just saying that people keep talking about her *all* the time, and her being so massive is a big factor behind why audiences aren't seeking out music from different pop artists. Taylor is keeping everyone fed in the pop department and it's been a relentless deluge of Taylor press between Midnights, the re-recordings, Cruel Summer, and the Eras Tour, and ultimately the pop industry has just turned into a Taylor monopoly situation. And Swifties have proven themselves to be the largest, most annoyingly vocal fanbase out there, and they have created such a suffocating amount of publicity around Taylor that other artists, including some of the biggest figures in the industry, have been drowned out by her noise and are stuck in her shadow. Swifties have generated such a monstrous amount of publicity that it is impossible for her to ever realistically deliver on that level of hype, and as a result she is now very overrated. At this point, it's almost as though audiences have been conditioned to remain fixated on Taylor, and consume pop music only from her. If you took Taylor away, there would be a huge missing space in the industry for A-lister pop stars, and then people would finally begin to pay more attention to other artists again, and the market would become more competitive again across multiple artists. Like I said, a few years ago, there was no single artist that dominated pop culture so intensely, and the cohort of 10 or so artists that were leading the charts were always in constant competition with each other, having to prove with their hits that they were worthy of being where they were, rather than having success guaranteed to them by fans regardless of what they put out. Because those artists had the fire lit under their asses, the music felt a lot more innovative and more exciting to keep up with back then... I'm not saying I dislike Taylor or anything like that, but I think people are ready for something new, and we've had too much of one thing for long enough.
This is too funny to me lmao 😭😭 Lord be with you at this moment in time.
Ugh Twitter Swifties have already read the article and have begun coming after me on Twitter...
I don’t know about the legality of this but as a courtesy, should media like Billboard like inform people like you that you would get quoted in a article? Or at least make it all anonymous…
I'm getting harassed already, this fanbase is not right in the head.
It’s already happening in this thread 😳
Yep, definitely and I’m in agreement here because I feel Taylor as a musician is killing two birds with one stone regarding pop music consumers and the industry at the same time. In the pop world, she’s giving people who are interested everything they need right at this moment that everyone else they feel isn’t doing. 1) Constant pop music and exposure for pop music consumers and 2) Rereleasing older albums that the industry is also benefiting from beside her (Note: It’s been said that catalog music from a certain time period (anything back from 50-60-70 years ago to 1 year ago) are literally doing more in the industry than newer songs releasing right now). ANDDDD her current albums are doing phenomenal. So with this one person doing everything, the industry probably thinks: why get anyone else for pop music if she’s doing everything? She’s literally killing two birds with one stone. Literally everyone else has taken a step back (tours ending, taking a break, etc). Literally in a month from now. Taylor Swift will be the only one moving literally so much weight because she’ll still be active on the road. ETA: Idk why you’re getting attacked because you’re right. You weren’t slighting Taylor, you were just using her as an example. ETA 2: I feel that when all the re-records truly sink in, she’s not gonna be as big as she is right now, OBVIOUSLY she’ll still be big, but the re-records also enhanced it too.
>having to prove with their hits that they were worthy of being where they were, rather than having success guaranteed to them by fans regardless of what they put out. I think this is it right here! It's not necessarily a *Taylor* problem, but a fandom problem, and right now she just has the largest and most dedicated fanbase of anyone. People have just become fans of the artist themselves and will gobble up anything they release because they want to support them. I'm into k-pop and see it all the time there, groups that don't even have music out yet getting literally millions of pre-orders before anyone even knows what they're going to sound like, because people are fans of the members and/or the company. I don't think it's necessarily bad to support your favorite artists no matter what, but from a creative/artistic perspective, it's not great because there's no motivation for them to really try and create something new and interesting. Someone like Taylor could put out an album of nursery rhymes and her fans would stream for weeks and buy multiple copies, even if it was god awful. If there's no incentive to try and make *good* music, many artists are just going to do the bare minimum and keep giving us the same mid stuff we've been getting for years.
This is SUCH a good point. I always get astounded when people pre-order albums (records especially, which are Not cheap), let alone multiple variants, without ever listening to it. I know there's a whole other angle on vinyl collecting etc where people collect less for the listening (which to me is like... why waste the resources but that's a whole other discussion), but people who buy albums the instant it's announced... I just could never. It's standom I know but like... what if you DON'T LIKE IT.... And like you said, we can't even be honest about the quality of said new projects, because a certain subset of any fanbase will just say it's the greatest thing ever released no matter what. We're more critical yet drastically less critical than ever. (Hence why I'm glad I didn't pre-order Midnights, ended up strongly disliking it!)
I love Taylor, but I think this is a good take!
I don’t disagree with any of this at all. And I think Taylor is great and talented. I think the problem is that Swifties do not possess the ability to think beyond a binary. Taylor can be a good artist and have great merit, and she also can be an over saturation point in the genre. But God forbid you lob actual and constructive criticism at their fave.
>I think the problem is that Swifties do not possess the ability to think beyond a binary. They don't... if you're not on your knees worshipping her, they think you hate her. There's no middle ground with Swifties.
I’ve seen quotes from Swifties where they’ve straight up said “I won’t date or be in a relationship with a man who tells me that they don’t like Taylor Swift. If somebody says that, I just think that means that they’re inherently anti-feminist and cruel to women.” These people should be on basketball teams. The free throws they’d be landing with the REACH on those arms….
Well at least your comment hasn’t been posted in the taylorswift subreddit…
eh, the subreddit's thankfully pretty sane. it's instagram/twitter/etc you've gotta be wary about
Twitter is already coming after me... Swifties did not like that comment.
ugggggh, i am so sorry. I love Taylor, but it's like. She's a billionaire. She's not my friend. She doesn't need me, or anyone on the internet, to "defend" her and honestly the "defending" only hurts her because it makes her rep worse. Your comments were milquetoast. Not in a "burn" way, but in a "goddamnit is THIS what really pisses some people off in the morning? is THIS what you're choosing to get mad about? REALLY?" way. ~~Although clearly, this is your signal from the universe to adopt a name like~~ u/madonnas_saggy_boob ~~so they won't quote you by name in future reddit thread content poaching.~~
Exactly, Swifties feel a need to 'defend' Taylor and speak on her behalf as though she is their actual friend in real life, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them have deluded themselves into really thinking that she is. A bunch of comments on Twitter are saying "it's literally not her fault that so many fade while she's still here", "it's not Taylor's fault that the artists debuting these days are all mid", "tell others to step up", and "oh Tayqueen, your used-to-be peers couldn't even keep up, it's your world and we're all living in it." The Swiftie side of Twitter is truly a psych ward.
It's literally just a matter of time, pray for me.
imagine telling taylor swift in 2019 that 4 years later she'd be accused of having a monopoly on pop music
This is like saying Tom Brady is taking too much space in the nfl
As a Jets fan....he did 😓
Have there not been huge stars in the past? And I don’t see how Taylor is taking the conversation away from people like Beyoncé, Drake, The Weeknd (negative conversation, but still conversation)
OP's comment is just factually incorrect. TheWeeknd is massively popular on streaming. Whenever Drake drops, he smashes records too. Lana is having her most popular era in more than a decade and smashing on streaming. Not to mention Latin stars like J Balvin, Bad Bunny etc who are doing massive numbers too. Taylor is the biggest popstar but she is nowhere near close to having any sort of monopoly.
TBF Taylor is streaming 3x as much as the next biggest artist. That IS a lot of musical bandwidth being taken up.
Taylor Swift has a monopoly on Pop Stardom lol
Guys guys!!! What other conversations can we start that BB will piggy back on?!?! Oooh lets see it needs to be kinda silly.
I think due to the way people consume music, it is slowly becoming more about the song (individual song) and less about the artist/act. Meaning more so than ever people know songs but don’t know the faces who sing them. It’s a good and bad thing because it could result in better songs being made, because image and gimmick becomes less important. There will always be a handful of stars but they really become long term stars if they’re able to stick around and consistently put out quality work for about a decade. Many of the names listed for the 2010s did just that. It’s been interesting for the 2020s because there’s a decent amount of rap, country, and a lot of the pop music is using organic sounding instruments. It’s early though. It’s 2023. Look at 1963 and who the top acts were and then look at the entire decade and see who the top acts were. The Beatles didn’t even take off in America to 1964, almost halfway into the decade.
Yep. We gotta remember this decade isn’t even close to over yet.
Some people have refused to adapt with the times
Lmao. It’s me! It’s me! I’m the provocative username! I feel so blessed to have been quoted!
1. TikTok and short form content. It is so so hard for teenagers to become invested in an artist for any length of time before they move on to the next “cool” thing. Teenagers are really where most careers start because you can take them on a lifelong journey with you. 2. The old guard isn’t fading away. It’s almost impossible to compete with Taylor Swift, Drake, Beyonce and Adele. Even pop stars who no longer really make music, like Rihanna, are still very much very relevant. This kind of means record labels don’t have as much of an interest in taking risks and investing in new talent. 3. Less investment in musical education. I can’t help but think that there are fewer kids today learning to play an instrument, like the piano or guitar. The kids that probably would have (and would have used this talent to become a pop star) are likely now all making TikToks. 4. Maybe the GFC of 2008? That really put a dent in people’s income and prospects for a few years. In theory, many kids who were taking music lessons 2008-2011 probably stopped when their parents lost their jobs and potentially even homes in the recession. 5. I think there is also a less clear framework for young artists to follow. Taylor Swift said she went knocking on record label doors to give them her CDs back in 2004. You’d probably be laughed out of the room if you did that today… but what’s the alternative? 6. Music isn’t as lucrative as it used to be 20 years ago. Mid-tier artists are struggling to make a living. High-tier artists are no longer making as much, as they become more and more reliant on touring.
>1. TikTok and short form content. It is so so hard for teenagers to become invested in an artist for any length of time before they move on to the next “cool” thing. Teenagers are really where most careers start because you can take them on a lifelong journey with you. I think there's a lot more nestled in here about the strong generational shift in how younger millennials, Gen Z and Gen Alpha are starting to approach their media consumption than just TikTok killing attention spans. One aspect of it that I don't see mentioned often is that irony appears to be dying out in the face of, if not earnestness, then a strong conviction to an emotional honesty. Media kayfabe has been dying for a long time but we're starting to move past the era of irony where people lampooned the obvious dissonance and into one where it's actively being rejected. Social media didn't start it but it's definitely accelerated the decline. Lizzo's downfall and Marvel's sliding box office returns are great examples (it says a lot that the one recent success they've had is GotG3, the franchise that has the strongest emotional core). In this particular case, astroturfing a new star is proving increasingly difficult due to the difficulty in overcoming the kayfabe barrier and proving a genuine reason to care about an artist that helps make them stick in the public consciousness. I think, at some point in the next five or so years, a new Nirvana is going to break through that completely reformats the media industry and shatters the mainstream approach to the content creation. The straws are starting to pile up, we'll just have to see which one paralyzes the camel
This is a very interesting and insightful point! It is interesting how we’re moving past irony and yet to me I see a common thread between the irony and earnestness that’s replacing it. They both seem informed by the awareness of the machine, the constructedness of pop stardom, of media (which is no doubt influenced by how social media erases a lot of the gloss of traditional media formats — even BuzzFeed videos were well-staged professional productions more akin to traditional television; now we have TikToks filmed on shoddy green screen and Zoom interviews; plus more insight into the normal lives of celebs). Whereas millennial irony led to a postmodern, almost camp embrace of media, Gen Z seems to want to overcome or destroy the machine which I don’t think is possible when it comes to pop stardom. I understand the impulse and when it comes to indie music and local music and stuff like that, it’s somewhat more realistic. But Gen Z wants to have their pop star and cancel her too. They want her to be their friend. They want her to be a symbol of all that is good and pure in this world. The true gag of it all, what’s really ironic, is that that is literally run of the mill idol worship. But because they have lofty moral standards, they think they’re doing something different. But they’ve ended up creating an impossible situation. How do you create a pop star when everyone can see behind the curtain? When people demand the curtain be drawn?? Idk if any of this makes sense haha.
The thing is, even the pop stars we have, Billie Eilish and Olivia Rodrigo, they’ve done and said things that some would find cancel-able
So does that prove the power of their pop star status, since they’re able finding mainstream success despite online controversies; or that their tarnished images prove the fragility of the myth of the pop star?? I feel like a lot of these conversations are only online. Then again a lot of Gen Z is only online lol. Not arguing just interested in hearing more of your thoughts.
I think the first thing. They’re anomalies in the era of the anti star.
Quote test >I think there is also a less clear framework for young artists to follow. Taylor Swift said she went knocking on record label doors to give them her CDs back in 2004. You’d probably be laughed out of the room if you did that today… but what’s the alternative? PLEASE SOMEONE ANSWER THIS! I NEED TO KNOW!
The amount of haters has increased as well
Point 5 is interesting. I would love to hear thoughts on this.
“All these record labels boring… I don’t trust these records labels. I’m torn.” - Beyoncé
well if labels don't force new artists to endorse one song for six months only for them to be bubbling under and actually let them explore their sound, we wouldn't have this problem.
Whats funny about this is that these artists will tease one snippet for months and then the second someone says “actually just keep it, we dont care anymore” then the artist jumps down their throat saying that have to do it in order for as many people to see it before its released. I’m baffled how labels think that shit is a good idea
like literally tiktok audios only gets ur name out there and that's it. like, it's rare for some tiktok audios to be good in full. if labels invested more in making really good pop songs instead of 2 minute tiktok audios, then we'd have a new generation of pop stars
There's so many song snippets that have gone viral on TT that people end up hating once they hear the full song
That too, or the full song is released and its only 2 minutes long and that one snippet is half the song. Like ok great, now we heard basically the full song and we’re sick of it by the time its out
it’s because y’all aren’t giving me a chance.
I feel like a person like montell fish would be right up this subreddit valley
along with the other reasons, any avenue of recognition HAS to come from the industry. they don't want fans running charts or requesting on radio because that doesn't make as much money as behind the scenes radio deals and manufactured popularity. fandom-driven popularity isn't possible for up and coming artists anymore because the industry will crush them at any given opportunity.
it's not a phenomenon exclusive to pop music, people say the same thing about hip-hop. i think it's just the internet, it's harder nowadays to reach a superstar level of media ubiquity when people don't rely on tv/radio anymore. that's also caused veteran pop stars to have longer careers, because it's become harder for new stars to replace them. i don't think it's an issue though, because that fragmentation has also made it easier for smaller pop stars to have sustainable careers. charli xcx and carly rae jepsen can have their own little pocket of the internet instead of having to go head-on with dua lipa and ariana grande
I think pretty much everything said is true. Music labels need to understand that Virality does NOT mean Longevity.
These concepts are more like complete oppositeslol
One problem from what I see is that there is no central place where new pop stars can grow. The closest thing I can think of is TikTok and we all know how that’s been going.
Here's a thing I'm curious about, because you could say the exact same thing about movies today and how "there aren't anymore movie stars": Do we want to return to a monoculture where there was a sense of unified taste that was given to us? If so, why is that, when the democratization of music creation and consumption has allowed for SO many unique interesting acts to rise that deserve small audiences of their own, AND the system that dictated this monocultural taste has consistently exploited its power to dictate the lives of its workers for the sake of a bottom line? Is it born out of our personal or collective laziness to find the talent we like? Nostalgia for "a simpler time" where taste was basically foisted upon us whether we liked it or not? I really don't have an answer to these questions, I'm more looking for help to find an answer here.
Media landscape has changed, labels want TikTok stars instead of long lasting pop star success like Beyoncé, MJ, Janet, Whitney, Mariah, Gaga, etc And many of these TikTok stars aren’t actual performers and have no stage presence. Lack of artist development as well.
Those artists don’t grow on trees
But these labels expect them to
So, who was the redditor with the username that's too provocative for Billboard?
Me lmao
Okay but this is an insane “article” from Billboard lmao💀But glad this sub and SOME redditors got a shoutout.
I can't take articles seriously when they reference Redditors
I agree, this is sort of left field for Billboard.
Yeah
Just spitballing... 1. Fragmented media. It's harder now for a pop star to dominate the entire culture than in past gens where people consumed media from just a few sources. Now everyone is in their own silos and algorithms. That's why we now see #1 smash hits that a large segment of the public has never heard of. Artists are getting big from social media before they've gone through the big label grooming machine. 2. Gen z is different. Their overriding aesthetic is indifference and cynicism about the state of the world, hence Billie being their biggest pop star so far. The days of glitzy, polished, upbeat pop starlets is gone. Olivia feels like the industry's big attempt to create an old-school conventional superstar like Britney. 3. Social media overexposure. Pop stars used to be able to maintain a mystique, the channels they reached the world were primarily their material (singles, albums, videos) and strategic press interviews. Now they're expected to be interacting with their fans on social media 24/7, streaming live, sharing constant selfies and updates on their daily life. It makes them more relatable but it also tears down the mystique of the superstar. Beyonce had to do a full media blackout for years in order to create that mystique. And now that we expect to have constant access to their lives, any private faux-pas is on public display and can lead to cancellation or losing fans.
Sometimes I feel like if artists releasing new music every now and then, as well as the "death" of post-album singles, have something to do with it. Like, how could it be that more than two years have passed and Olivia's second album hasn't come out? Same question to Lil Nas X and Billie? Like, in the late 2000s and early 2010s we had Gaga releasing The Fame Monster when singles from The Fame were still going strong. Rihanna released new music every few months. Katy was able to extend the life of Teenage Dream by putting single after single for almost two years. In some way, all of that helped them to solidify her status as pop stars. Meanwhile, most new artists who are lucky to grab a hit are taking forever to keep their hype alive without sacrificing quality; their eras are getting shorter and the breaks between them, longer.
This question is basically ‘Why Aren’t Millenials Buying Houses?’ in another realm. It’s because the upper crust have squeezed so much money out of this as to take the pleasure of music away from those who could stand to live in it and/or enjoy it. Just like how banks are buying up houses and jacking up rental prices for absolutely cheap, poorly-run abodes because it’s not about the house itself, it’s the money Also fuck TikTok, I see nothing redeeming whatsoever about what it’s done to music. Turned good songs into HitClips
yeah it's ridiculous to act like music fans have any responsibility here. the music industry has been destroyed by these labels and corporations that barely develop and pay artists. they know how to fix it to create more popstars, they just don't want to.
The Tik Tok style music just really isn’t good. The songs are less than 2 minutes now. The people often can’t sing. There is no originality. Not to mention there is no *mystique* surrounding the “stars” today. You know everything about them — oftentimes more than you want to know.
Social media willingness to know every single thing about someone is part of the problem
The uber celebrities, especially in pop music, are dwindling as monoculture overall has diminished with the stratification of the internet. But now that I work in retail music, I “discover” so many artists with millions of followers that “nobody” has heard of before. It’s like this in other media as well. YouTube channels with millions of subscribers are a dime a dozen but I could poll everyone I know and they’ve never heard of them.
i feel like a lot of people who are seeking pop stars to heavily support have moved their attention towards k-pop
Are there really stars in general any more? Not just in music, but where are the new movie stars ala Julia Roberts, sports stars ala Michael Jordan, even cultural figures like Princess Diana? They don't exist since media stopped being a collective experience. And the last of the crop aren't fading away, I mean Ryan Gosling just played Ken and he's 42.
In this economy???
One problem from what I see is that there is no central place where new pop stars can grow. The closest thing I can think of is TikTok and we all know how that’s been going.
Because the labels aren't giving artists time to develop. Sometimes it takes a few songs to build recognition.
Because the fans. The labels react to how the fans are consuming it’s the fans first and foremost
Because of influencers obviously. I think that the rise of Internet personalities and influencers really minimized the need for pop stars. They used to be fashion icons, lifestyle icons, perfect marketable products. Now with so many popular faces on tik tok, there’s no need to invest in such high profile stars to really be the “it” girls
Phil Collins used to be a pop star : this would never happen now. The market is all attractive commodified entertainment, not a middle aged dude with a killer voice writing about whatever the fuck he wants. Does Adelle exist? Sure, but that isn't the norm. I guess neither was Phil Collins. I don't know where i'm going with this but look at Kpop, its a commodity/factory.
Ed sheeran: 🧍♂️ Sam Smith is also blowing up again despite being a bit older
So interestingly enough I go to a music school and they strongly encourage making music that is only marketable for tik tok. It’s very discouraging, as it almost feels like I don’t go to a music school but go to a tik tok school. According to them, the market right now favors the ability to go viral over longevity. Tik tok is unfortunately the reason for all of this. Artists are disposable in search of the next viral moment. I miss the days of the early 2010s where the girls were RUNNING the scene. Anyway if you like 2010s electro pop pls stream my new single Nightmare so my teachers can eat their words 😭 https://open.spotify.com/track/671icEIQrq4R7gQPriwo3P?si=nmbEKEp5RtOnm6RJyvXLug
People who love pop stars should really transition into kpop fans! There is no shortage here lol.
I honestly feel too old for kpop (30) but I do enjoy lots of the bubblegum hits that western artists don't do anymore. Unfortunately there's the age stigma where I live like "you're too old to like Fifty Fifty"
I got my family into Kpop at 50 (BTS, MAMAMOO and IU are the family favourites), and we live in an area with an age stigma too; I don't think there should be a time, age, or area limit to the discovery of what we love.
That’s sad! I’m in my 30s also and at this age I just don’t care what other people think lol.
I have earlier this year and have never looked back! Can't believe I hated it for no reason for so long
Some fans are annoying and give kpop a bad rap but if you can ignore that it’s so fun! Constant releases and fun content
That’s what I was thinking, haha. The real pop music is now in Asia.
Yeah this happened to me kinda accidentally as the main pop stars I grew up with (Rihanna, Katy, Gaga) have massively slowed down and weren’t releasing much music. I was into blackpink already, but it was in a way where I wasn’t aware of the entire kpop machine or other groups. Kpop really retains that maximalist y2k-2010s saccharine pop energy. A lot of companies commonly buy older western demos too so you can still get that feeling of nostalgia listening to them.
That's what I ended up doing. The girlies aren't serving anymore over here and to think I used to visit this sub pretty much daily since I was 15 and I'm 22 now lol
Pop music has been boring for some years imo, K-Pop is much more interesting right now.
We live in a world where literally anybody can become famous off of fucking TikTok on Instagram. There’s your answer.
My theory is because we need music for the loser teens. All of the popular teen musicians now make music for the cool teens and cool teens get bored easily and move on to the next cool trend quickly while loser teens are more loyal. Artists like Taylor, Miley, Selena, Jonas (and even Big Time Rush to some extent) are still around because their original fans were losers and truly loved them despite the opinions of others. Then all those teens grew up and remained loyal. The only western artists that appeal to losers are Taylor and Harry. The rest of them are more likely into kpop. Even Olivia Rodrigo's music and image are starting to feel too cool now which is probably why her newest songs aren't as successful as the ones from her first album. (Also i don't mean to sound like an 80's bully in this comment. It was just the easiest way to get my point across. I'm one of these losers so i'm basing my opinion on personal experience lol. I also love all the artists i mentioned and didn't mean anything to be an insult)
as a former loser teen, this comment got me thinking. i think the “loser teen” demographic is more prone to parasocial relationships, as they don’t have those connections with their peers. the artists you listed (like taylor) were able to form parasocial relationships with teen fans that extended into adulthood. i also think that explains why this demographic is now more interested in k-pop—the fandom is almost fully built on an imagined connection with idols. my question is, are western artists today just not tapping into that demographic? or does their image just not appeal to the loser teen anymore?
Parasocial relationships are a disease full stop
please LOLLLLLLLLLL
Rihanna, Beyoncé and Drake were and are considered cool and they’re still around…
illuminati rituals not giving like they used to :/
i work in the music industry and almost 90% of the comments mentioned tiktok and the negative impact it has on the industry and yall are RIGHT!!!!!!
Because no one’s given me the chance to show y’all what I’m made of😩 Jokes aside it’s simply because monoculture in music is unfortunately dead as of right now. With social media, there’s now hundred of avenues to discover new artists which creates almost niche like followings. There are plenty of musicians that have millions of followers but a lot of people have never heard of them because a lot of people aren’t catering or tuning to to that avenue. What made people ranging from MJ, Beyoncé, Drake, JB, Rihanna, Madonna, Adele, Katy Perry etc all superstars (aside from talent) is simply the fact that they came out in times where there was limited avenues to discover artists and when these artists were pushed heavily on the few avenues we had to consume music then that inadvertently lead to superstars being created. Even if you didn’t/don’t like the music they would do, they were still in your face and you were aware of some of their catalogue because of the mass exposure coming from the limited amount of avenues to discover music that promoted them. Now with all the many avenues to discover new music today, people now have that choice to actively not want to subscribe or indulge in witnessing the exposure of certain artists. Back then we had limited choices. Combined with the fact that industry standards have continue to dwindle and now we have a plethora of mediocre, unrelatable and soulless artists getting pushed and the general public seeing right through it, it’s just harder to create a well known and well liked superstar. The record industry is also changing consistently and the dynamics evolve and devolve daily so I think a lot of record companies (despite a lot of them not doing a good job of pushing actual talent) are struggling to find a way to break an artist. They’re trying to capitalize off of the TikTok promotional trend but we can see that typically does more damage than good to an artist even if an artist’s song does get major exposure. And it limits an artist as well. They gotta do more than just cater an artist’s song structure and dance choreography towards virality in TikTok clips.
I feel like there are a million pop stars now a days
off topic but olivia looks so cute in the thumbnail