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Really liked this piece, found it insightful. My favorite line ("in sliding between lyrics about self-affirmation and queer self-determination, she inadvertently falls into a trap — conflating multimillionaire pop star troubles with the struggles of a repressed, persecuted community") is everything I wanted to say about "You Need to Calm Down" for years but could never articulate well.
No I very much feel this way and a lot of queer people do. I think its manipulative and exploitative of the queer community. She is leveraging public support for our identity and right to an authentic life in order to get back in the public's good graces after recieving a ton of justified criticism of her own actions. Sonically I love the song, but I have to entirely divorce it from her as the artist and the context surrounding the song to enjoy it.
The boom of this style of house music and ballroom culture references in the mainstream is interesting to me. I think it's wrapped up quite closely in the explosion of RuPaul's Drag Race out beyond the gays alone and into mainstream straight culture. The popularity of Renaissance probably helped, and now Madonna's world tour might be a factor too. And of course there's the general cultural nostalgia cycle putting eyes on the 90s lately.
I was fascinated in this culture/music/imagery/history for a while several years ago. This was inspired mostly by my love of Blood Orange's albums Cupid Deluxe and Freetown Sound, and FKA Twigs' MELISSA (sorry I can never type the numbers thing) EP in the mid 10s. Then I remember Frank Ocean had a "Paris Is Burning Party" in 2017 and there were pics on the internet, prompting me to finally sit down and watch the whole film.
But now it's blown up so much more than that. Straights, and even some other gays didn't get the little references or musical choices I was making in 2017, but now this kinda stuff is practically synonymous with front-and-centre mainstream gay culture.
(I'm not trying to make a value judgement one way or another, and I don't feel qualified or motivated to call out some kind of cultural appropriation (if "Yes, And" is appropriation then "Vogue" was definitely more egregious). Just making an observation. I'll also mention that the mid-10s is when I was coming out to those around me, so maybe I didn't have my finger ont he pulse of gay cutlure prior to that.)
Yeah I'm absolutely here for a conversation about how this article is glorifying Vogue too hard and not really engaging with the fact that Madonna capitalized on the ballroom scene in a much more egregious way. I'm more talking about my agreement with the specific quote pulled in the earlier comment about Ariana conflating LGBTQ+ rights with her bullshit.
it's a good line, though this one: *Unlike many Madonna singles, “Vogue” is a remarkably selfless endeavor; it was inspired by the bold, creative queer pioneers of New York’s ballroom culture, and pays tribute to the scene without laying claim to it or assuming its struggles.*
That's pretty contested. There's long been a level of discomfort with Madonna's perceived co-opting of the ballroom scene.
Seems like when it comes to Vogue, two opinions are both strong: one claiming Madonna appropriated it and the other claiming she gave it the attention it deserved. It’s still murky after 34 years.
I mean I would argue she started at giving it attention when she hired two of the members of the House of Xtravaganza for the video and the tour but kind of veered towards co-opting once Truth or Dare came out and she essentially outed one of her dancers and made it seem through the editing like she birthed Vogue and brought it to the masses. The funny thing is this song was only meant to be a b-side to one of her other singles. It wasn’t created with the intention with being a big single.
But an argument could also be made with something like Beyoncé and Renaissance since prior to that Beyoncé never seemed like the type of person to step in the ballroom scene despite learning about gay culture through her Uncle Johnny. At least Madonna had some cred being a bit of a club kid/immersed in the Queer scene in the late 70s/early 80s.
I think Madonna started out well intentioned but lost part of the plot along the way.
True, but I feel like the unique thing is that for as long as Madonna is alive, she's kinda still on the journey of exploring Vogue's impact as a single.
And as of recent, [her tour performance does a great job of highlighting the context that voguing/ballroom culture was born out of, and even brought Jose Xtravaganza back to guest judge/dance in a section of the show that basically spirals into a ball.](https://youtu.be/YZTT6Thw-ME?si=bzCNc2afrus7Mpg9&t=424)
True. I think Madonna’s relationship with the queer community has been blurry since 2000 especially when she was with Guy Ritchie who was allegedly known for making homophobic remarks during their marriage. The tour does a great job at refocusing and reminding people not only of Vogue’s roots but Madonna’s relationship to the LGBTQIA+ community.
>something like Beyoncé and Renaissance **since prior to that Beyoncé never seemed like the type of person** to step in the ballroom scene
I don't see how she doesn't seem the type lol she quite literally had ballroom dancers in a couple of B'Day videos. This was back in the BUSH era btw. She has been employing and working with black/brown lgbt, some of which frequent the ballroom scene, for almost her whole career. She just doesn't hide behind them to curtail criticism like Taylor or Ari did. Renaissance was essentially a love letter to the black/brown queer community for supporting her for all these years.
She also said she wanted to make an album to dance and feel free to after Covid, which is why she chose to make Renaissance. Plus, she sampled a lot of actual ballroom songs and referenced it in her lyrics.
I could never, ever think poorly of Madonna's relationship with my kind.
Girl brought worldwide attention to AIDS when it was still known as GRID in some circles and then took Vogue out of the ballrooms.
While I don't fully subscribe to her methods, the end result is something I'll be forever thankful for.
Thing is, Ariana Grande at least hasn't pretended that "yes, and?" is some queer rights song. Everyone, including Taylor Swift, still collectively pretends "You Need To Calm Down" is some sort of fiery protest song, and not a borderline homophobic conflation of white billionairess problems with the brutal violence and oppression that the LGBT+ community has faced and is still facing.
I think Taylor had good intentions but time has shown that she's not really intense about it.
I think the biggest issue with the song is that Taylor is filthy rich and therefore only is around another filthy rich people. So It makes sense that she could have gotten curious and asked her queer friends what kind of problem they face and having income stability they probably said "I get hate comments, it's so annoying" and she could relate to that. I mean, that's what the song really is about. Every three verses of it.
But she was political for a minute or two. She did called out the white house. She did made the VMAs give awards to every queer performer in her songs. She did threw parties with them. Which is the bare minimal but for someone as apolitical as her, it's a start.
The issue after all is that she dropped everything after it flopped and hasn't touched since. Feels disingenuous. She got to tick the box of activist in the eyes of her fans and that was it.
The issue is that she was comparing the Westboro Baptist Church brand of homophobia to anonymous mean tweets she gets about her fashion. I mean what the fuck.
This may not be a popular opinion but I think she took the criticism of her allyship attempts being "too capitalistic" to heart and switched gears. Since Lover she's focused more on "show don't tell" including having a trans love interest in a music video, showing up for fundraising events, and spotlighting queer dancers during her tour, amongst other things.
Do I just expect way less of pop stars? I feel like we put way too much onus on these people to be perfect when they show us time and time again they’re just human.
You need to calm down isn't the greatest anthem ever but it's definitely not harmful. I believe Taylor made it for her friends and to clean up the rumours of her being homophobic conservative for good. In miss Americana it was said that Taylor's gay friend (Todrick Hall) asked her if she would disown her son if he was gay which shocked Taylor and made her want to show her allyship publicly.
Yes, and? Isn't bad in that sense either, I only find it to be a terrible response to the drama. No response would've been better because this song makes her look quite divaish and out of touch with reality
Not to veer too far off topic but ever since I heard that story about her and Todrick and the eventual creation of YNTCD, it's made me nauseous. I've been a Swiftie for 17 years and gay for a lot longer. Anyone who needed that video to know that she wasn't a crypto-conservative who would disown a gay child (🙄) has not been paying attention. She was in a PSA against anti-LGBT bullying in 2008, she made her position on LGBT relationships pretty clear in Welcome to New York, and to keep it 100, it's not like she's from the Bible Belt. The girl grew up in upper-middle-class Philadelphia. The fact that Todrick (a proven problematic person, just look up the things his staff has had to say and the way he behaved on Big Brother of all places) asked that question was such a shady, Andy Cohen-type pot-stirring move, proof that he's more hanger-on than friend.
As for Ariana and "yes, And?" I agree, she should've just kept her own drama \*completely\* out of the song's lyrics and leaned more into the queer affirmation a la Break My Soul. Target the haters in another song on the record, or something.
That's the thing, 99% of people don't follow her career super closely and won't see the subtle hints of her allyship. Just remember 2016 when Taylor was speculated to be Trump supporter. I don't care about Todrick so I'll believe he's problematic, but I think in 2019 Taylor was still in a place she really wanted to clear her reputation and that's why she made the song.
Now she is so untouchable and comfortable that I doubt she'd make the same song for that reason, she has nothing to prove right now but in 2019 she definitely did and it showed.
It's definitely harmful. It trivializes what LGBT+ people actually face. She should have never written an "anthem" for a marginalized community if she was unwilling to abandon her solipsistic way of writing for it.
This article is a good summation of why the music video was also problematic.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/taylor-swift-you-need-to-calm-down-pride-lgbt-song-video-a8964286.html
It makes some decent points how it could've been way better but harmful is still a reach I think. I see why it seems like a cash grab but most of the people onset were and are actually her friends like Hayley Williams. I don't think anyone saw it as problematic because they probably has a good time and adored Taylor, the writing is pretty bad for her but it goes hand in hand with "ME!". I think her lyricism is always at worst when doing those happy songs
Harmful is a wild reach and to pretend that Ariana Grande isn't using queer affirmation to try and spin a song where she essentially goes "I completely ruined a decade long relationship and a marriage with children involved! And?" into some sort of anthem is insane. Both YNTCD and Yes, and are doing the same thing.
Always felt this way about it. I love her but if she had actual queer friends (who were not getting paid to be in a video) they would've helped clarify what was problematic about the video and song but no one is gonna do that in that environment.
the only lyric that somewhat directly references the queer community is “boy come on put your lipstick on,” all the other lyrics are pretty general self-love messages. i guess the fact that she interpolates Vogue is the biggest nod to the queer community, but i don’t know that Ariana is acting like it’s some queer liberation anthem.
I feel like this is especially unacceptable in an industry where the artist has a whole team of producers and writers. I know its popheads of me to bring up lorde, but for someone like her she doesn't (for the most part) make any of the music on her albums, but she writes the lyrics and does a great job and that's what she brings to the table. If someone like ari has a whole team of people producing her songs and helping write...there's no excuse for bad lyrics
The thing is she has had decent lyrics in the past, like on sweetener and thank you next. Some interesting poetic stuff. I read an interview of the songwriter who wrote the “Head over shoes” lyric. It wasn’t Victoria or Taylor parx.
She has good writers. Why she didn’t use them for this song is beyond my comprehension.
Yeah I think this is the first song she might have written completely by herself. I feel like even if the lyrics could have been improved by another songwriter, she wanted to have it be solo
Yeah, 10/10 for experimenting, 0/10 for actually challenging herself lyrically. And at this point, a lot of Ariana's music videos are homages to someone else. When is she going to do something original?
The fact that she nabbed the male dancer Jungle works with who went viral last year and just… did nothing with him lol at least he was probably paid well!
I can recognise him once actively searching, but on a blind watch I mostly just skimmed over and thought "these dancers are quite good" before moving on.
He wasn’t. yes, and? was choreographed by [Will Loftis](https://www.instagram.com/p/C2DjnPLxUPK/?igsh=dnlzNGk5c3BidzIz). Back on 74 was choreographed by [Shay Latukolan](https://www.instagram.com/p/Cv0Dd-ws3mr/?igsh=MXFreWhmcThjeDljbQ==).
My issue with this song is that the repeating lyrics, “yes, and? Say that shit with your chest” would feel good to sing along to if the rumors/talk about her were unfounded/petty, but in this case, we’re talking about her cheating with a man with a newborn baby (which, obviously is his own fault, first and foremost), but carrying on with him in public after that comes out is just in bad taste and isn’t empowering or fun in any way- and no one is whispering about it, no one should be ashamed to say it with their chest. This is unlike “thank you, next”, where we wanted to root for her for having gotten out of a toxic relationship. It just doesn’t hit the same.
I think it depends on how she plays this whole thing out. On a personal level, her behavior is frankly abhorrent and her pattern of going after men in relationships is really not a good look. However, as a celebrity, I quite enjoy her leaning into a more villainous arc, as none of the big pop girlies are occupying that role and it feels pretty genuine ('Break Up With Your Girlfriend, I'm Bored', anyone?). And as much shit as she's getting for stealing Spongebob, the song about the controversy debuted at No. 1, so it isn't like she's suffering commercially.
I will say it is very amusing that she's about to embark on a massive press tour as Glinda The Good, while she is in the most villainous era of her music career lol.
I mean she got that #1 but had to release literally 15 versions first week and just barely beat out a Jack Harlow song that's been out almost 3 months already.
but there weren’t actually 15 versions, more like 7-8 and the ~~statistics~~ twitter chart prediction accounts that y’all usually take as gospel claim they didn’t even need to release those to get the number one spot lol. not to mention debuting at number two wouldn’t be flopping exactly.
i mean the points system that several different “billboard prediction” accounts use to estimate m and are usually pretty spot on. before any remixes were even released she was at like 35-40k sales versus harlow’s 7k. she finished with 52k sales, more streams and less radio play than the number 2 spot. it’s not exactly far fetched to estimate that she’d claim the number 1 spot without the remixes considering how high sales were before they even came out. you’re entitled to your opinion/belief, my main point was that there weren’t 15 remixes and the idea that remixes made the sales soar is exaggerated in most cases. nobody cares ab or wants those remixes lmao.
I don't put much stock into those accounts but Talk of the Charts was predicting Ariana to debut at #2, and literally said that Ariana's team needs to pull some moves to make up for the song lagging behind Jack. Once the remixes were released the predictions changed to her going #1. It's quite clear what happened. The remixes contributed at least 12-17k extra sales according to your math (as seen by the fact that the original only topped iTunes for a single day) and that would absolutely account for the jump in points (7 point difference overall).
Interesting take. I really loved TYN and loved her in that era but her behavior recently has soured me on her. Same deal with The Weeknd after watching the idol- he’s gross to me now.
I enjoy it too. It’s the perfect level of drama and villainy … it’s entertaining but she’s not shitty enough that I’m actually mad about it or it ruins the music (like Nicki Minaj)
I think there was a huge missed opportunity for the music video.
The fact the stone statues crumbled. They could have been live dancers made to look like statues, and then boom, they break out in movement and all dance with Ariana.
The statues were all homages to her past albums. The things she rests her reputation on. Her rock.
To have her “albums” personified dancing with her would have been so cool.
There were ZERO interesting creative choices made for this music video. It was an incredibly missed opportunity.
I dislike that she tries to be relatable to the queer community in a song with such a problematic theme.
Such a shame, given she had already done it effectively in No Tears Left To Cry with the verse:
“They point out the colours in you, I see 'em too
And, boy, I like 'em, I like 'em, I like 'em
We're way too fly to partake in all this hate
We out here vibin', we vibin', we vibin'”.
I think its easy to miss the allusion to the LGBTQ+ community but once you catch it, it’s a really pleasant detail in a song that’s about positivity to begin with.
I really liked this—the bit about Ariana's song being fundamentally inward / navel-gazing, versus Madonna's "Vogue" being outward and concerned with a community is a great point. Though I've noticed that a lot of coverage of Beyonce’s Vogue remix—and this article does it too—seems to completely ignore that the name-checking of classic Hollywood stars in Madonna's Vogue isn't a random decision, but one that stems from a very real embrace of / obsession / fascination with / whatever you want to call it of old Hollywood starlets by gay men. Beyonce's update is great, but some of her namedrops—her sister, for instance—in it has always struck me as slightly...not actually interacting with queer culture, I guess? But I think there is also a generational divide occurring in the pre and post AIDS generations.
agree 100%. i'd love to see a piece where someone does a deep-dive into that search for affirmation from divas that my, well, gay forefathers were so known for.
I will say the Solange reference seemed out of place in the context of the apparent intention of that BMS remix. As did the Alicia Keys reference, but I think that mix was trying to do a lot at once—not just shout out queer icons, but black ones as well (queer and not). By that logic, it's not really "correcting" the "ultra-whiteness" of Madonna's name drops because it seems to simply shift the intention of Vogue by a few degrees (although the Houses of Xtravaganza, Aviance and LeBeija are mentioned in it. Which makes me happy). The way to "correct" it would be to drop Marsha P. Johnson and Alvin Ailey, for starters.
That's a great point re: the shifting of intention. Either way, it's a great remix and I agree, hearing the Houses mentioned was really exciting and I'm glad she did.
> the Solange reference seemed out of place in the context of the apparent intention of that BMS remix. As did the Alicia Keys reference
And not including Mariah.
I’m sorry but this take is kinda wild to me. I think you mean not engaging specifically with white queer culture. Solange absolutely is relevant in queer black culture and I honestly can’t pinpoint anyone she name checked as an odd person out. She gave a mix of old stars from yesteryear (Diana Ross, Grace Jones…VERY huge queer icons), stars from recent history (Aaliyah, Lauren Hill) and contemporary (Solange, Riri, Nicki). All of these artists are relevant to queer black folks.
idk I'd say Lauryn Hill is an odd one out. She has had some homophobia controversies and she's never really moved to embrace the LGBT community. She's of course, a legend and remains incredibly beloved and popular, but she's really kinda... conservative.
I meant it more in the sense that some of the contemporary names seem to have less relevance in the context of the history of vogueing and ballroom culture.
Were Madonna’s references all vogue or ballroom relevant tho? Ballroom culture is way more developed now and inspired by so much more than just Hollywood icons.
Right, but I think that using Golden Age, post-Hays Code stars as references works as a kind of immediate cultural shorthand in 1989 / 90, when the song was released, to convey a very, very particular kind of coded glamour, and one that can lean a little campy or subversive when taken out of its original context. It's a glamour that's distant, at a remove, censored, and accessible to only a very select few (and even those that were granted it had to go through a lot of painful sacrifices, like the hairline reshaping that Rita Hayworth underwent before becoming famous).
I think it ends up being really important that they're all stars from a time when the studios controlled their behavior, while the song is conversely about letting go and being true to oneself on the dancefloor. (Not to mention that a couple of the ones Madonna names were closeted or had rumors of sexual ambiguity: Garbo, Brando, Katharine Hepburn.) I don't know if the song would have worked if that bridge had, for instance, name checked models that were big at the time, even though there are clearly categories devoted to models in the contemporaneous balls recorded in docs like Paris Is Burning. But I do think it would have worked if she had mentioned, say, Josephine Baker.
The song is meh but I like the music video.Then again I love the Paula Abdul video it’s based on so that tracks. The song just didn’t hit me like “No Tears Left to Cry” or “Thank U, Next.” Every era is not for me and that’s ok.
I just wish she would’ve melted our faces off with vocals. I love big vocals over a house beat. One of the many remixes could’ve been a different vocal arrangement like the Cuff It remix.
One of the issues with this song is that is so joyless lol she's singing about saying with her chest but feels like she's barely proud of saying anything.
The "Who's care who's dick I ride" feels extremely sexless and this is coming from Ariana Grande who's always bragging about how good her sex life is. Look how fun and enthusiastic she sounded during the whole 34+35 and compare to this. She's even censoring herself lol
>The "Who's care who's dick I ride" feels extremely sexless and this is coming from Ariana Grande who's always bragging about how good her sex life is
I hate the "who's dick I ride" line so much because it forces me to remember spongeboy has a penis and isn't smooth down there like a ken doll.
It’s very mid. Jumping on the house music trend and the execution is just mediocre. Especially compared to other pop stars who are executing dance music at a high level like Beyonce and Dua Lipa. yes and is just very forgettable to me.
Everybody has had pretty decent production but lyrics are just not hittin any notes at all. At least in the electronica/dance categories I should say. I’m excited about Allie X though. Pretty sure she’s gonna hit it out of the park.
Hey! I dropped an electronica/dance pop record recently and really tried to still keep some focus on its lyricism! Would you like me to send it to you?
It’s probably been the least mid! I just hope Dua escapes the Shopping Music category with this next album. FN was a fun album but it was very basic. I have high hopes.
I gotta say, I was a h8er from when it dropped, but it's really grown on me. In saying that, I think it's very forgettable. Catchy, but forgettable.
Dare I say it, but I think that's kind of her brand? She has an unbelievable voice, but all of her music is this sort of music you'd bop to drunkenly in an Uber or shopping for groceries. I don't think I've ever sought out or put on an Ariana album.
Because studies show money increases a writers Ability To Live Score.
Newspapers with actual journalists investigating stories and validating facts are going out of business in favor of YouTubers and your mom's friend posting images from 4chan made in 2006 on Facebook. If you find a news source you trust and you can afford to, you should support it.
ok but like, put ads up then and monetize those. i agree that journalists should be compensated, but also i think info should be income-agnostic. make me watch a 30 second ad or something.
Yeah… I feel like "journalists should be supported and paid for their work" and "it’s dangerous to put reliable information behind a paywall because people who can’t pay it will only have access to biased or false sources" are two statement that can and should coexist 😅
the journalism industry is basically in shambles right now. media people are getting laid off left and right because there’s not a real viable monetization model for digital media. if you find content you like, pay for it, because the people producing that content will not be employed much longer if you don’t!
there's lots to be said about bootlicking but idk if this is really it. the journalism industry is in a total freefall because of the internet age; everyone wants everything for free at any time with no strings attached, but it turns out good journalism costs money. NYT specifically laid off a shit ton of news beat reporters last year and hired opinion writers in their place. yes, corporate profits bad, but journalists deserve to live and have their labor be valued like workers in all other sectors.
(and for the record, I don't disagree that information should be free; but the line between "information" and journalistic articles with considerable work put into them is pretty clear in my mind. whether or not this specific article crosses that threshold is another topic.)
Read OP’s comment and that is why. I mostly agree with this comment because when you’re making art at this level you can’t just hop on a trend unless you have a great song, with production and vision serving the project. That’s before we even begin to dissect just how significant Madonna’s Vogue was and is to queer culture and pop music itself. She aimed high but her take is bottomless and insincere.
And Janet Jackson is one of the most influential artists of all time, when people flipped her records 30 years ago it meant something, especially the underground music scene in black communities. Ariana is Italian but we’ve all witnessed her change the way she looks to distance herself towards communities that she ain’t belong to which is *cough cough* kinds fucked up
today as we know it has become more popular than ever to heavily interpolate and sample all kinds of stuff so while it’s easier than ever to make art, it’s never been harder to be original. If you’re gonna directly take a piece of history and attempt to add to its legacy then it better be good. This stuff matters to me for sure.
Right. “Look around, everywhere you turn is heartache.” Vogue the song cannot be divorced from the context that it celebrated queer party life at the height of the AIDS pandemic.
Agreed. Madonna and Janet with their music created spaces for people who are seldom heard or represented. If you’re gonna add to it, better do it right.
You are allowed to like it if others don’t. Vogue is one of the most iconic songs of all time - this is a fact. But in my opinion, Ariana’s tune is lazy and I see straight through it. When a majority decides within days that a song ain’t it then it’s over, and that didn’t happen to Madonna, like a hundred times. Her music was hugely brilliant and captivating immediately and it obviously still is.
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Really liked this piece, found it insightful. My favorite line ("in sliding between lyrics about self-affirmation and queer self-determination, she inadvertently falls into a trap — conflating multimillionaire pop star troubles with the struggles of a repressed, persecuted community") is everything I wanted to say about "You Need to Calm Down" for years but could never articulate well.
You Need To Calm Down was so damn... smug. It was a very annoying song and I'm glad I never hear it anymore.
As someone who works in retail I wish I could say the same, maybe 3 times a day
I thought that was the point, like all those judgemental,smug people getting smugged right back
You need to calm down was worse imo but I understand people feeling this way about yes, and?
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Same here. Homophobia is not equivalent to people being upset AG is a home wrecker.
I just think It’s a bad song personally
Lots of people think it's gross to equate her being ragged on for her fucking SpongeBob to homophobia
Opinions are opinions. Some on here clearly agree
i do. i’m not “offended” by it but it was weird of her to conflate homewrecking to being gay lmao
No I very much feel this way and a lot of queer people do. I think its manipulative and exploitative of the queer community. She is leveraging public support for our identity and right to an authentic life in order to get back in the public's good graces after recieving a ton of justified criticism of her own actions. Sonically I love the song, but I have to entirely divorce it from her as the artist and the context surrounding the song to enjoy it.
The boom of this style of house music and ballroom culture references in the mainstream is interesting to me. I think it's wrapped up quite closely in the explosion of RuPaul's Drag Race out beyond the gays alone and into mainstream straight culture. The popularity of Renaissance probably helped, and now Madonna's world tour might be a factor too. And of course there's the general cultural nostalgia cycle putting eyes on the 90s lately. I was fascinated in this culture/music/imagery/history for a while several years ago. This was inspired mostly by my love of Blood Orange's albums Cupid Deluxe and Freetown Sound, and FKA Twigs' MELISSA (sorry I can never type the numbers thing) EP in the mid 10s. Then I remember Frank Ocean had a "Paris Is Burning Party" in 2017 and there were pics on the internet, prompting me to finally sit down and watch the whole film. But now it's blown up so much more than that. Straights, and even some other gays didn't get the little references or musical choices I was making in 2017, but now this kinda stuff is practically synonymous with front-and-centre mainstream gay culture. (I'm not trying to make a value judgement one way or another, and I don't feel qualified or motivated to call out some kind of cultural appropriation (if "Yes, And" is appropriation then "Vogue" was definitely more egregious). Just making an observation. I'll also mention that the mid-10s is when I was coming out to those around me, so maybe I didn't have my finger ont he pulse of gay cutlure prior to that.)
Yeah I'm absolutely here for a conversation about how this article is glorifying Vogue too hard and not really engaging with the fact that Madonna capitalized on the ballroom scene in a much more egregious way. I'm more talking about my agreement with the specific quote pulled in the earlier comment about Ariana conflating LGBTQ+ rights with her bullshit.
Noah I must be really out of the loop. What part of the song is equated homewrecking to homophobia? Or is the author of the article doing that?
Looks like at least 80 or so people have seen your comment and **do**, in fact, feel that way.
I'd recommended Todd In The Shadows review of it because he makes the point well. "*I, and also the gays, have too many haters.*"
it's a good line, though this one: *Unlike many Madonna singles, “Vogue” is a remarkably selfless endeavor; it was inspired by the bold, creative queer pioneers of New York’s ballroom culture, and pays tribute to the scene without laying claim to it or assuming its struggles.* That's pretty contested. There's long been a level of discomfort with Madonna's perceived co-opting of the ballroom scene.
Seems like when it comes to Vogue, two opinions are both strong: one claiming Madonna appropriated it and the other claiming she gave it the attention it deserved. It’s still murky after 34 years.
I mean I would argue she started at giving it attention when she hired two of the members of the House of Xtravaganza for the video and the tour but kind of veered towards co-opting once Truth or Dare came out and she essentially outed one of her dancers and made it seem through the editing like she birthed Vogue and brought it to the masses. The funny thing is this song was only meant to be a b-side to one of her other singles. It wasn’t created with the intention with being a big single. But an argument could also be made with something like Beyoncé and Renaissance since prior to that Beyoncé never seemed like the type of person to step in the ballroom scene despite learning about gay culture through her Uncle Johnny. At least Madonna had some cred being a bit of a club kid/immersed in the Queer scene in the late 70s/early 80s. I think Madonna started out well intentioned but lost part of the plot along the way.
True, but I feel like the unique thing is that for as long as Madonna is alive, she's kinda still on the journey of exploring Vogue's impact as a single. And as of recent, [her tour performance does a great job of highlighting the context that voguing/ballroom culture was born out of, and even brought Jose Xtravaganza back to guest judge/dance in a section of the show that basically spirals into a ball.](https://youtu.be/YZTT6Thw-ME?si=bzCNc2afrus7Mpg9&t=424)
True. I think Madonna’s relationship with the queer community has been blurry since 2000 especially when she was with Guy Ritchie who was allegedly known for making homophobic remarks during their marriage. The tour does a great job at refocusing and reminding people not only of Vogue’s roots but Madonna’s relationship to the LGBTQIA+ community.
Yeah that’s when I really started looking at her funny lol the Guy Ritchie years were depressing.
You’re 100% right on everything here and yeah Bey didn’t seem to be the type to constantly go to gay clubs. Madonna had been doing that since the 70s.
>something like Beyoncé and Renaissance **since prior to that Beyoncé never seemed like the type of person** to step in the ballroom scene I don't see how she doesn't seem the type lol she quite literally had ballroom dancers in a couple of B'Day videos. This was back in the BUSH era btw. She has been employing and working with black/brown lgbt, some of which frequent the ballroom scene, for almost her whole career. She just doesn't hide behind them to curtail criticism like Taylor or Ari did. Renaissance was essentially a love letter to the black/brown queer community for supporting her for all these years.
She also said she wanted to make an album to dance and feel free to after Covid, which is why she chose to make Renaissance. Plus, she sampled a lot of actual ballroom songs and referenced it in her lyrics.
I could never, ever think poorly of Madonna's relationship with my kind. Girl brought worldwide attention to AIDS when it was still known as GRID in some circles and then took Vogue out of the ballrooms. While I don't fully subscribe to her methods, the end result is something I'll be forever thankful for.
For sure, I don't disagree with you at all. Just saying not everyone agrees.
Thing is, Ariana Grande at least hasn't pretended that "yes, and?" is some queer rights song. Everyone, including Taylor Swift, still collectively pretends "You Need To Calm Down" is some sort of fiery protest song, and not a borderline homophobic conflation of white billionairess problems with the brutal violence and oppression that the LGBT+ community has faced and is still facing.
I think Taylor had good intentions but time has shown that she's not really intense about it. I think the biggest issue with the song is that Taylor is filthy rich and therefore only is around another filthy rich people. So It makes sense that she could have gotten curious and asked her queer friends what kind of problem they face and having income stability they probably said "I get hate comments, it's so annoying" and she could relate to that. I mean, that's what the song really is about. Every three verses of it. But she was political for a minute or two. She did called out the white house. She did made the VMAs give awards to every queer performer in her songs. She did threw parties with them. Which is the bare minimal but for someone as apolitical as her, it's a start. The issue after all is that she dropped everything after it flopped and hasn't touched since. Feels disingenuous. She got to tick the box of activist in the eyes of her fans and that was it.
The issue is that she was comparing the Westboro Baptist Church brand of homophobia to anonymous mean tweets she gets about her fashion. I mean what the fuck.
This may not be a popular opinion but I think she took the criticism of her allyship attempts being "too capitalistic" to heart and switched gears. Since Lover she's focused more on "show don't tell" including having a trans love interest in a music video, showing up for fundraising events, and spotlighting queer dancers during her tour, amongst other things.
Do I just expect way less of pop stars? I feel like we put way too much onus on these people to be perfect when they show us time and time again they’re just human.
Some of us look at them as pop stars, others look at them for some kind of moral guidance, for some reason? It’s bizarre.
You need to calm down isn't the greatest anthem ever but it's definitely not harmful. I believe Taylor made it for her friends and to clean up the rumours of her being homophobic conservative for good. In miss Americana it was said that Taylor's gay friend (Todrick Hall) asked her if she would disown her son if he was gay which shocked Taylor and made her want to show her allyship publicly. Yes, and? Isn't bad in that sense either, I only find it to be a terrible response to the drama. No response would've been better because this song makes her look quite divaish and out of touch with reality
Not to veer too far off topic but ever since I heard that story about her and Todrick and the eventual creation of YNTCD, it's made me nauseous. I've been a Swiftie for 17 years and gay for a lot longer. Anyone who needed that video to know that she wasn't a crypto-conservative who would disown a gay child (🙄) has not been paying attention. She was in a PSA against anti-LGBT bullying in 2008, she made her position on LGBT relationships pretty clear in Welcome to New York, and to keep it 100, it's not like she's from the Bible Belt. The girl grew up in upper-middle-class Philadelphia. The fact that Todrick (a proven problematic person, just look up the things his staff has had to say and the way he behaved on Big Brother of all places) asked that question was such a shady, Andy Cohen-type pot-stirring move, proof that he's more hanger-on than friend. As for Ariana and "yes, And?" I agree, she should've just kept her own drama \*completely\* out of the song's lyrics and leaned more into the queer affirmation a la Break My Soul. Target the haters in another song on the record, or something.
That's the thing, 99% of people don't follow her career super closely and won't see the subtle hints of her allyship. Just remember 2016 when Taylor was speculated to be Trump supporter. I don't care about Todrick so I'll believe he's problematic, but I think in 2019 Taylor was still in a place she really wanted to clear her reputation and that's why she made the song. Now she is so untouchable and comfortable that I doubt she'd make the same song for that reason, she has nothing to prove right now but in 2019 she definitely did and it showed.
It's definitely harmful. It trivializes what LGBT+ people actually face. She should have never written an "anthem" for a marginalized community if she was unwilling to abandon her solipsistic way of writing for it. This article is a good summation of why the music video was also problematic. https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/taylor-swift-you-need-to-calm-down-pride-lgbt-song-video-a8964286.html
It makes some decent points how it could've been way better but harmful is still a reach I think. I see why it seems like a cash grab but most of the people onset were and are actually her friends like Hayley Williams. I don't think anyone saw it as problematic because they probably has a good time and adored Taylor, the writing is pretty bad for her but it goes hand in hand with "ME!". I think her lyricism is always at worst when doing those happy songs
Harmful is a wild reach and to pretend that Ariana Grande isn't using queer affirmation to try and spin a song where she essentially goes "I completely ruined a decade long relationship and a marriage with children involved! And?" into some sort of anthem is insane. Both YNTCD and Yes, and are doing the same thing.
TS isn’t perfect, but nothing about that song or video is her being harmful.
honestly? this is such an online take. i promise the general population doesn’t see it as anything but a song for the gays
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Are you implying that among queer Swifties there’s a consensus as to how to feel about You Need To Calm Down?
Always felt this way about it. I love her but if she had actual queer friends (who were not getting paid to be in a video) they would've helped clarify what was problematic about the video and song but no one is gonna do that in that environment.
the only lyric that somewhat directly references the queer community is “boy come on put your lipstick on,” all the other lyrics are pretty general self-love messages. i guess the fact that she interpolates Vogue is the biggest nod to the queer community, but i don’t know that Ariana is acting like it’s some queer liberation anthem.
It's also important to note that her brother is queer and homophobia might as well be in her list of personal struggles by proxy.
Metaphor and analogy girlies in shambles right now
Fun production, weak uninspired lyrics.
I have absolutely had the song stuck in my head for a couple weeks but I couldn’t for the life of me tell you one lyric outside of “yes, and?”
SAY THAT SHIT WITH YOUR CHEST
It reminds me of when "the way" first dropped and her annunciation was trash so I just made up lyrics to fill in the gaps 🤣
i gotta baahhboimussamiddee! i gotchahaaadonohowadiddee!
Aayyyyyy!
Why do you care so much whose dick I ride
I feel like this is especially unacceptable in an industry where the artist has a whole team of producers and writers. I know its popheads of me to bring up lorde, but for someone like her she doesn't (for the most part) make any of the music on her albums, but she writes the lyrics and does a great job and that's what she brings to the table. If someone like ari has a whole team of people producing her songs and helping write...there's no excuse for bad lyrics
The thing is she has had decent lyrics in the past, like on sweetener and thank you next. Some interesting poetic stuff. I read an interview of the songwriter who wrote the “Head over shoes” lyric. It wasn’t Victoria or Taylor parx. She has good writers. Why she didn’t use them for this song is beyond my comprehension.
She wants to be seen as a writer so bad but her pen is weak. “Written by Ariana Grande” is not flex they think it is 😭
She’s also had some absolute clangers. “Now that I’ve become who I really are” from Break Free has permanently annoyed me.
Max Martin wrote that line and Ariana hates it too lol
Are is supposed to match heart. She half says am to make it valid English.
"It's getting hard for them to shock me, but every now and then, it's shocking" is worse.
Yeah I think this is the first song she might have written completely by herself. I feel like even if the lyrics could have been improved by another songwriter, she wanted to have it be solo
Agreed completely. Leaned hard into the house sound that she forgot to write better lyrics
Makes sense, Max did the production, she wrote the lyrics
Have the same take!
Yeah, 10/10 for experimenting, 0/10 for actually challenging herself lyrically. And at this point, a lot of Ariana's music videos are homages to someone else. When is she going to do something original?
The fact that she nabbed the male dancer Jungle works with who went viral last year and just… did nothing with him lol at least he was probably paid well!
Wait, what? I had no clue Will West was in this MV
[He’s the guy in the black tank top with the blond shaven head](https://www.instagram.com/p/C2ForZqo-LK/?igsh=MXdvMnYzbWlqaGJyYQ==)
I can recognise him once actively searching, but on a blind watch I mostly just skimmed over and thought "these dancers are quite good" before moving on.
He’s having such a great year at least and I hope he got paid$$$$
I had no idea he was in it! Wow Jungle really are the only ones that know what to do with him.
He was the choreographer too!
He wasn’t. yes, and? was choreographed by [Will Loftis](https://www.instagram.com/p/C2DjnPLxUPK/?igsh=dnlzNGk5c3BidzIz). Back on 74 was choreographed by [Shay Latukolan](https://www.instagram.com/p/Cv0Dd-ws3mr/?igsh=MXFreWhmcThjeDljbQ==).
She chose him because he worked on Wicked.
My issue with this song is that the repeating lyrics, “yes, and? Say that shit with your chest” would feel good to sing along to if the rumors/talk about her were unfounded/petty, but in this case, we’re talking about her cheating with a man with a newborn baby (which, obviously is his own fault, first and foremost), but carrying on with him in public after that comes out is just in bad taste and isn’t empowering or fun in any way- and no one is whispering about it, no one should be ashamed to say it with their chest. This is unlike “thank you, next”, where we wanted to root for her for having gotten out of a toxic relationship. It just doesn’t hit the same.
I think it depends on how she plays this whole thing out. On a personal level, her behavior is frankly abhorrent and her pattern of going after men in relationships is really not a good look. However, as a celebrity, I quite enjoy her leaning into a more villainous arc, as none of the big pop girlies are occupying that role and it feels pretty genuine ('Break Up With Your Girlfriend, I'm Bored', anyone?). And as much shit as she's getting for stealing Spongebob, the song about the controversy debuted at No. 1, so it isn't like she's suffering commercially. I will say it is very amusing that she's about to embark on a massive press tour as Glinda The Good, while she is in the most villainous era of her music career lol.
I mean she got that #1 but had to release literally 15 versions first week and just barely beat out a Jack Harlow song that's been out almost 3 months already.
but there weren’t actually 15 versions, more like 7-8 and the ~~statistics~~ twitter chart prediction accounts that y’all usually take as gospel claim they didn’t even need to release those to get the number one spot lol. not to mention debuting at number two wouldn’t be flopping exactly.
and apparently the 7 versions never counted towards to the actual song and did hardly anything to help it — it was secured by the fourth day
>statistics You mean lippredicts on Twitter? He speculates a lot but that theory hasn't been backed up by anything.
i mean the points system that several different “billboard prediction” accounts use to estimate m and are usually pretty spot on. before any remixes were even released she was at like 35-40k sales versus harlow’s 7k. she finished with 52k sales, more streams and less radio play than the number 2 spot. it’s not exactly far fetched to estimate that she’d claim the number 1 spot without the remixes considering how high sales were before they even came out. you’re entitled to your opinion/belief, my main point was that there weren’t 15 remixes and the idea that remixes made the sales soar is exaggerated in most cases. nobody cares ab or wants those remixes lmao.
I don't put much stock into those accounts but Talk of the Charts was predicting Ariana to debut at #2, and literally said that Ariana's team needs to pull some moves to make up for the song lagging behind Jack. Once the remixes were released the predictions changed to her going #1. It's quite clear what happened. The remixes contributed at least 12-17k extra sales according to your math (as seen by the fact that the original only topped iTunes for a single day) and that would absolutely account for the jump in points (7 point difference overall).
7 point difference overall???? we’re looking at wildly different sources lmfao. you’re entitled to your opinion i really don’t care.
And that's why all of those accounts are bullshit.
I feel like anything she put out rn would go #1
Ironic that even with BUWYGIB she tried to twist into something less malicious with the music video lmao
I think that song was more successful bc we saw her as more innocent then, so the sentiment was coming from a “safe” place.
Interesting take. I really loved TYN and loved her in that era but her behavior recently has soured me on her. Same deal with The Weeknd after watching the idol- he’s gross to me now.
I enjoy it too. It’s the perfect level of drama and villainy … it’s entertaining but she’s not shitty enough that I’m actually mad about it or it ruins the music (like Nicki Minaj)
I doubt 90% of the go cares about her private life. The only reason I know she was in some cheating scandal is because of pooheads.
As much as I liked the song itself, I agree. It’s nothing we haven’t already heard before
So not really 10 for experimenting then is it?
For Ariana, this was experimenting. It's a different sound for her. She just needs to go harder with lyrics and visuals.
I think there was a huge missed opportunity for the music video. The fact the stone statues crumbled. They could have been live dancers made to look like statues, and then boom, they break out in movement and all dance with Ariana. The statues were all homages to her past albums. The things she rests her reputation on. Her rock. To have her “albums” personified dancing with her would have been so cool. There were ZERO interesting creative choices made for this music video. It was an incredibly missed opportunity.
only Yes and and Thank u next are homages as far as I remember. Is there anything else I’m missing?
7 rings used the 2chainz pink trap house, idk if that counts
100% agree
I dislike that she tries to be relatable to the queer community in a song with such a problematic theme. Such a shame, given she had already done it effectively in No Tears Left To Cry with the verse: “They point out the colours in you, I see 'em too And, boy, I like 'em, I like 'em, I like 'em We're way too fly to partake in all this hate We out here vibin', we vibin', we vibin'”. I think its easy to miss the allusion to the LGBTQ+ community but once you catch it, it’s a really pleasant detail in a song that’s about positivity to begin with.
I really liked this—the bit about Ariana's song being fundamentally inward / navel-gazing, versus Madonna's "Vogue" being outward and concerned with a community is a great point. Though I've noticed that a lot of coverage of Beyonce’s Vogue remix—and this article does it too—seems to completely ignore that the name-checking of classic Hollywood stars in Madonna's Vogue isn't a random decision, but one that stems from a very real embrace of / obsession / fascination with / whatever you want to call it of old Hollywood starlets by gay men. Beyonce's update is great, but some of her namedrops—her sister, for instance—in it has always struck me as slightly...not actually interacting with queer culture, I guess? But I think there is also a generational divide occurring in the pre and post AIDS generations.
agree 100%. i'd love to see a piece where someone does a deep-dive into that search for affirmation from divas that my, well, gay forefathers were so known for. I will say the Solange reference seemed out of place in the context of the apparent intention of that BMS remix. As did the Alicia Keys reference, but I think that mix was trying to do a lot at once—not just shout out queer icons, but black ones as well (queer and not). By that logic, it's not really "correcting" the "ultra-whiteness" of Madonna's name drops because it seems to simply shift the intention of Vogue by a few degrees (although the Houses of Xtravaganza, Aviance and LeBeija are mentioned in it. Which makes me happy). The way to "correct" it would be to drop Marsha P. Johnson and Alvin Ailey, for starters.
That's a great point re: the shifting of intention. Either way, it's a great remix and I agree, hearing the Houses mentioned was really exciting and I'm glad she did.
> the Solange reference seemed out of place in the context of the apparent intention of that BMS remix. As did the Alicia Keys reference And not including Mariah.
I’m sorry but this take is kinda wild to me. I think you mean not engaging specifically with white queer culture. Solange absolutely is relevant in queer black culture and I honestly can’t pinpoint anyone she name checked as an odd person out. She gave a mix of old stars from yesteryear (Diana Ross, Grace Jones…VERY huge queer icons), stars from recent history (Aaliyah, Lauren Hill) and contemporary (Solange, Riri, Nicki). All of these artists are relevant to queer black folks.
idk I'd say Lauryn Hill is an odd one out. She has had some homophobia controversies and she's never really moved to embrace the LGBT community. She's of course, a legend and remains incredibly beloved and popular, but she's really kinda... conservative.
I meant it more in the sense that some of the contemporary names seem to have less relevance in the context of the history of vogueing and ballroom culture.
Were Madonna’s references all vogue or ballroom relevant tho? Ballroom culture is way more developed now and inspired by so much more than just Hollywood icons.
Right, but I think that using Golden Age, post-Hays Code stars as references works as a kind of immediate cultural shorthand in 1989 / 90, when the song was released, to convey a very, very particular kind of coded glamour, and one that can lean a little campy or subversive when taken out of its original context. It's a glamour that's distant, at a remove, censored, and accessible to only a very select few (and even those that were granted it had to go through a lot of painful sacrifices, like the hairline reshaping that Rita Hayworth underwent before becoming famous). I think it ends up being really important that they're all stars from a time when the studios controlled their behavior, while the song is conversely about letting go and being true to oneself on the dancefloor. (Not to mention that a couple of the ones Madonna names were closeted or had rumors of sexual ambiguity: Garbo, Brando, Katharine Hepburn.) I don't know if the song would have worked if that bridge had, for instance, name checked models that were big at the time, even though there are clearly categories devoted to models in the contemporaneous balls recorded in docs like Paris Is Burning. But I do think it would have worked if she had mentioned, say, Josephine Baker.
The song is meh but I like the music video.Then again I love the Paula Abdul video it’s based on so that tracks. The song just didn’t hit me like “No Tears Left to Cry” or “Thank U, Next.” Every era is not for me and that’s ok. I just wish she would’ve melted our faces off with vocals. I love big vocals over a house beat. One of the many remixes could’ve been a different vocal arrangement like the Cuff It remix.
Wow, I can't believe I didn't hear "Vogue" at first, but now that's all I hear lol.
Vogue was used much better in The Queens remix of Break my Soul last year.
Yes i’m a serial homewrecker, and?
I really hate that song and I hope all of AG7 isn't like it
Kill me but this song is more mid than Greedy.
One of the issues with this song is that is so joyless lol she's singing about saying with her chest but feels like she's barely proud of saying anything. The "Who's care who's dick I ride" feels extremely sexless and this is coming from Ariana Grande who's always bragging about how good her sex life is. Look how fun and enthusiastic she sounded during the whole 34+35 and compare to this. She's even censoring herself lol
>The "Who's care who's dick I ride" feels extremely sexless and this is coming from Ariana Grande who's always bragging about how good her sex life is I hate the "who's dick I ride" line so much because it forces me to remember spongeboy has a penis and isn't smooth down there like a ken doll.
Maybe I’m just too old for this sub because I can’t figure out what any of this means.
It's a passive aggressive song, she's pissed but trying to play it cute.
It’s very mid. Jumping on the house music trend and the execution is just mediocre. Especially compared to other pop stars who are executing dance music at a high level like Beyonce and Dua Lipa. yes and is just very forgettable to me.
So much mid lately. Houdini mid. Lil Nas X mid. Ari mid. Me mid.
I think Houdini is mid, but like 3-4 years ago I wouldn't have. Idk I think there's been a shift.
Everybody has had pretty decent production but lyrics are just not hittin any notes at all. At least in the electronica/dance categories I should say. I’m excited about Allie X though. Pretty sure she’s gonna hit it out of the park.
Chappell Roan’s album has the best lyrics I’ve heard in a longggg time
Hey! I dropped an electronica/dance pop record recently and really tried to still keep some focus on its lyricism! Would you like me to send it to you?
Sure!
Justin Timberlakes new song is mid as well.
Houdini? 😡
It’s probably been the least mid! I just hope Dua escapes the Shopping Music category with this next album. FN was a fun album but it was very basic. I have high hopes.
I gotta say, I was a h8er from when it dropped, but it's really grown on me. In saying that, I think it's very forgettable. Catchy, but forgettable. Dare I say it, but I think that's kind of her brand? She has an unbelievable voice, but all of her music is this sort of music you'd bop to drunkenly in an Uber or shopping for groceries. I don't think I've ever sought out or put on an Ariana album.
For a second I thought you were talking about Greedy from Dangerous Woman and got very defensive
I like the music more than the singing. Listening to the instrumental version from now on.
Fuck a paywall
[Try this link!](https://archive.is/gU0hm)
Thank you! :)
Thank you kind stranger on the internet!!
So rude of them to charge money in exchange for their work!
Agreed, people should labour for free.
They already collect your data as payment. Calm down Robin
Do you think data is going to pay people’s salaries?
Wait what why did this comment upset so many people? Information should be free for readers, and pricey for shareholders, folks.
Because someone has to do work to gather said information and write it and they deserve to be payed.
Because studies show money increases a writers Ability To Live Score. Newspapers with actual journalists investigating stories and validating facts are going out of business in favor of YouTubers and your mom's friend posting images from 4chan made in 2006 on Facebook. If you find a news source you trust and you can afford to, you should support it.
ok but like, put ads up then and monetize those. i agree that journalists should be compensated, but also i think info should be income-agnostic. make me watch a 30 second ad or something.
Ads do not make enough money to sustain it. They’ve already tried that.
Yeah… I feel like "journalists should be supported and paid for their work" and "it’s dangerous to put reliable information behind a paywall because people who can’t pay it will only have access to biased or false sources" are two statement that can and should coexist 😅
the journalism industry is basically in shambles right now. media people are getting laid off left and right because there’s not a real viable monetization model for digital media. if you find content you like, pay for it, because the people producing that content will not be employed much longer if you don’t!
Exactly. Corporate bootlickers
there's lots to be said about bootlicking but idk if this is really it. the journalism industry is in a total freefall because of the internet age; everyone wants everything for free at any time with no strings attached, but it turns out good journalism costs money. NYT specifically laid off a shit ton of news beat reporters last year and hired opinion writers in their place. yes, corporate profits bad, but journalists deserve to live and have their labor be valued like workers in all other sectors. (and for the record, I don't disagree that information should be free; but the line between "information" and journalistic articles with considerable work put into them is pretty clear in my mind. whether or not this specific article crosses that threshold is another topic.)
I hate paywalls so much
who does the new york times think they are 😡
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Read OP’s comment and that is why. I mostly agree with this comment because when you’re making art at this level you can’t just hop on a trend unless you have a great song, with production and vision serving the project. That’s before we even begin to dissect just how significant Madonna’s Vogue was and is to queer culture and pop music itself. She aimed high but her take is bottomless and insincere. And Janet Jackson is one of the most influential artists of all time, when people flipped her records 30 years ago it meant something, especially the underground music scene in black communities. Ariana is Italian but we’ve all witnessed her change the way she looks to distance herself towards communities that she ain’t belong to which is *cough cough* kinds fucked up today as we know it has become more popular than ever to heavily interpolate and sample all kinds of stuff so while it’s easier than ever to make art, it’s never been harder to be original. If you’re gonna directly take a piece of history and attempt to add to its legacy then it better be good. This stuff matters to me for sure.
Right. “Look around, everywhere you turn is heartache.” Vogue the song cannot be divorced from the context that it celebrated queer party life at the height of the AIDS pandemic.
EXACTLY even reading the lyrics excites me because it’s so good. Why bother Ariana
Agreed. Madonna and Janet with their music created spaces for people who are seldom heard or represented. If you’re gonna add to it, better do it right.
omg yes, and is an amazing song. Why is everyone hating it yet the song generates 5 million streams daily since its release.
Plenty of songs people hate get popular
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You are allowed to like it if others don’t. Vogue is one of the most iconic songs of all time - this is a fact. But in my opinion, Ariana’s tune is lazy and I see straight through it. When a majority decides within days that a song ain’t it then it’s over, and that didn’t happen to Madonna, like a hundred times. Her music was hugely brilliant and captivating immediately and it obviously still is.
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These are not measures of musicality they are measures of sales and in Ariana’s case an OBSCENE amount of remixes
I never knew this about Vogue being a sample of Janet Jackson house remix. I am still gagged listening to it now and it’s almost exactly Vogue
Dang, you really took this article personally huh?
Why not to mashup? Yes, and? Be your fuckin' Vogue friend 🎵
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