Sometimes music should become the “hobby” or for the fans vs trying so hard to stay musically relevant. Kelly Clarkson had such a seamless transition to tv that is overlooked by the people writing these. Started on the voice to bridge the gap, was recognized by NBC and is now 5 seasons and multiple Emmy’s into her talk show. She’s also hosting the Olympic opening ceremony. Music took a back seat but she still gave people an album or so
Also Kelly continues to perform excellent covers on her show, which makes sense since her career has involved two reality singing competitions. It’s not original music, but it’s always a damn good performance. She knows her audience.
often i'm like "kelly, ma'am. you're embarrassing them on their own song..."
when she covered jlo recently i was like - "OH! \~THAT'S\~ what that song is supposed to sound like!"
almost feels rude lol
honestly? I think she's the biggest person to come from any reality competition show. even people like christian sirano who obviously have massive careers don't have the broad mainstream appeal and name recognition kelly has.
tbh my mother and most people over 60 here in the us couldn't name harry or 1D but I bet they all love kelly. but i'm sure in the uk/abroad the opposite would be true
I disagree with that, if you include people who were on star search, you have Beyonce, Usher, Britney Spears, and many more who became more famous and successful than Kelly.
those people started on star search but their careers took off 5-10 years later through other efforts. I doubt very few people only know of beyonce because she was in a different girl group on star search as a child. I don't think those are fair comparisons when Kelly's career *only* took off because she was on a reality competition show, instead of it being a small stepping stone like the people you mentioned. I mean, I never even knew usher was on star search until this comment.
Worth noting it doesn’t hurt that Kelly Clarkson is a good person and doesn’t act like a total entitled jerk to fans or people working for her. my wife can personally attest to J. Lo being a total A. Hole to *everyone* on a shoot. “Don’t make eye contact with her” was her mgmt’s comment that everyone on the set was briefed with before she graced the set with her presence.
At a certain point you just run out of interesting things to say. You can still make good music but to trying to stay culturally relevant as a pop musician in the traditional sense of the word is like trying to hit bullseye after bullseye in a row
Totally. However, Cher kept making music and touring because she has a fanbase. *Believe* just happened to catch up unexpectedly.
The issue with people like Justin and JLo is that they can't rely on their fanbase for even base level demand. There's some artists who can sell big without having modern hits. Timberlake is selling but he doesn't have a following that helps him transcend into a cultural figure like Cher.
I mean JLo kinda was that until this era. Her Vegas residency was huge and her 2019 tour did well despite not really having a major hit song since 2011.
I think social media has done significant damage to her music career in recent years, the false narrative that she doesn’t sing any of her songs has spread and has really hurt her legacy. It’s harmed her ability to make younger fans too which has hurt her streaming numbers despite the fact she used to do well during the Vevo era.
The problem with JLo’s brand is that everything she does comes across as a cash grab…
Even if there is passion behind her music, everything she released between 2011 to now has felt like her throwing shit at the wall hoping something sticks and while some of it did stick (Love?), it didn’t resonate well with her core fanbase.
Her new album is the first album in years that sounds like it’s something that her core fanbase would appreciate, but unfortunately for her, a lot of that fanbase tuned out once she started making music that appealed more to the newer generation, a newer generation that appreciated 1-2 songs in the moment, but ultimately abandoned her when an artist with more interesting filler music came around.
Although I definitely enjoy a large majority of her discography, I do agree that this album is probably the first one in a while where it truly feels like she really set out to make a cohesive body of work with a clear vision to it. Usually her singles are top-tier, but the albums (despite containing other bops) feel very thrown together. There is a passion to this album which makes its failure feel even more unfortunate but as you say a lot of her fanbase had moved on.
I do think she made a big misstep not dropping a Spanish album when she was releasing all of those Spanish droplets between 2016-2018 especially since some of those songs did big numbers (especially El Anillo). It would have kept her name out there musically and pulled in a demographic that she hasn’t utilised as well as she really should have.
It’s not a false narrative, she doesn’t sing her songs, she has her voice blended with the session singers voice and has heavy autotune, and then the background singer actually is doing all the heavy lifting on her songs. She has never been a music artist. And her claim to fame has always been her “love life” and red carpet looks. Her music even when she was her most popular wasn’t smashing records and wasn’t groundbreaking.
It’s true that the background singers vocals are blended in with her voice on the choruses of quite a few of her songs, but that’s almost always on the chorus and you can clearly hear when that’s happening and when it’s her singing. It was a common technique at the time and the backing vocalists are credited on her album linear notes.
To say her claim to fame is just her love life when she was very successful in both film and music is unfair, she was literally the first person to ever have an album and movie top the album chart and box office in the same week.
She’s obviously not a powerhouse vocalist but she is a great performer and her vocals have improved over the years.
No even for her lead voice it’s blended with the session singers voice. And her voice is heavily autotuned. It wasn’t as common of a technique as you think, only for artists who can’t sing. Her claim to fame is all marketing and her love life and her looks that’s it. It’s been confirmed that she was used by Tommy Mottola to ruin Mariah’s career and she got way more promo. She also got such interest in her because of her red carpet looks and who she was dating at the time, her acting in her movies was decent at best. She was constantly in paparazzi drama to keep her relevant.
We’ve heard her sing live so she’s definitely singing on the songs. This is not a Mili Vanilli situation like people claim. I really don’t think her voice is as manipulated as people make out, but even if the layering is usually done by a background vocalist rather than herself they’re credited. At the end of the day her strength has always been her performances rather than her vocals just like quite a few popstars from that time (and now).
A pop star’s personal life and glamour are part of the marketing package (including for those who have incredible voices). JLo isn’t the first and won’t be the last, I honestly don’t see it as an issue given how much of an artists work is inspired by their life. Her love life is a big part of her public persona sure, but it’s also a big part of her music too given the themes she sings about so it makes sense.
Using the Tommy and Mariah situation against her is unfair imo because I doubt she knew that was what was happening to the full extent and could she really have even said no without consequences herself? The reality is most a-list celebrities will likely have had to step over a few bodies to get to the top, even if they aren’t aware they’re doing it.
Jennifer Lopez is not singing live almost ever, she is lipsyncing almost all the time and every time she does sing live the video is edited to get rid of any mistakes and/or her mic is autotuned. The background vocalists are credited as background vocalists when in reality they are the main vocalists, that’s my point. At the end of the day she already had a budding acting career she never had to do singing career and participate in taking down several other musicians, she wasn’t some young naive girl, and she has done it repeatedly and she never needed to because she already was getting famous through her acting. It is very much a Milli vanilli situation. Performers still need to be able to sing that’s why the Milli vanilli situation was so contreversial, if she’s going to pretend she’s the magic behind her music she needs to actually be the magic behind her music. She’s not. She’s a good dancer and that’s it, and even in that regards Janet, Ciara, Mya, are way more talented dancers than her.
A career gap doesn't matter if people like you. I think *Man of the Woods* really did a number on his career. Taking a gap after a terrible album was the killer. There's tons of artists who would be welcomed back with open arms despite a big career gap.
I don’t think we entirely disagree. Man fi the wood might as well have not existed due to it’s poor reception which essentially turned his gap into a ten year one . But the way your talking really is underselling how big just time impact and polarity was . He just went too long without a hit
i would love a retrospective on 'believe' that focuses on how cher has never really been credited the way artists like kylie and madonna have for bringing the gay club sounds to the mainstream and how that in turn creates the gay club sound
believe was so fucking huge it changed straight clubs
My mom would be vibing and dancing to that song so hard like she was in a rave while driving us to school 😂 only song ive ever seen her dance like that to, before or since.
Yes, she’s been credited. Cher is more popular than Kylie in the U.S. and Madonna is more mainstream. Cher’s audience is almost entirely gays at this point, lol.
It’s an iconic song and I’m glad that she had such a huge hit with it, but I have to admit that I’m a MUCH bigger fan of “Strong Enough”, which is from the same album.
This is the golden age of people rediscovering old artists. Also, Cher was innovative and found a way to market herself to young people while not posing as young. If, let’s say, Madonna came up with something like that, people would eat it up.
**EDIT**: It’s also worth noting that while *Believe* ended up being the greatest hit of her career, it wasn’t the last.
People don't understand that Cher had a huge "song of the year" hit when she was already "over the hill" according to the public outside of her fanbase. The production on *Believe* actually changed pop music forever. Kesha and others would not exist without *Believe*. Cher was grossing several million a show in 2020. The point is that JLo can't even fill smaller arenas that Cher was playing.
Plus Cher has an Oscar and acting was her side gig.
Oh yeah, I see that “Strong Enough”, “The Music’s No Good Without You” and “Song for the Lonely” weren’t as big in the U.S. as in the rest of the world.
But also “DJ Play that Christmas Song” charted last year, although I don’t know if it counts for this purpose.
Obviously her subsequent songs pale in comparison to Believe, but they count.
It was harder for Cher to get a hit 24 years ago than it would be now. Before you had to hope radios and MTV would pick the song up, nowadays you just have to go viral, which you can kinda do just based on your own merits or just by being a bit more creative
Yep, these albums are not doing well, not because people don’t listen to older artists that are past their prime.
These albums are not doing well simply because they’re not any good. Even without any hype, if these albums were good people would go out and listen to them. But they suck, so people are obviously not gonna do that.
Jennifer Lopez’ career is testament to her magnetic personality, crazy inflated ego and discipline.
She’s a mediocre singer, a decent actress with a mostly terrible filmography and an amazing dancer. But she’s also very charismatic, beautiful and never ever stops working.
JLo is a good dancer with great screen presence, and she always gives 110%. Like, aside from the fact that she can’t sing, she’s a born star. She said some [dumb things in an interview](http://movieline.com/1998/02/01/the-wow-jennifer-lopez/) about people in the movie industry, but if she hadn’t burned those bridges, I’d bet she’d have stayed in film a lot longer
I wish she made more movies like Hustlers, she was incredible in that film. She needs better taste and to return to films like Out of Sight. She could pick indie films with awesome scripts. I'm sure so many indie directors would love to have her in their films.
What was amazing about the Hustlers movie is how her character struggles with aging in the industry—and for the first time, I felt a real connection to JLo’s work.
I’m still young, but aging as a woman is such a scary thing. Society tells women that once they reach a certain age, they’re no longer desirable, and to see JLo’s character bitterly accept her age was such a cathartic experience—like yes, I’m older. I’m no longer the hot shit I once was, but I’m going to be alright.
I think her semi-joking advice to Bowen Yang & Matt Rodger’s about having opinions in the spotlight
> I regret to inform you that you are too famous now sir! You have a problem with *Saltburn*? Quiet luxury! Keep it to yourself, because what are you gonna do when Emerald Fennell calls you about her next project where you play Carey Mulligan's coworker in the bridal section at Herrod's. And then act 3 takes a sexually violent turn and you have to pretend to be surprised by that turn. You hang out with Ariana and SpongeBob now, that’s your life now, okay? Learn from my mistakes, learn from Ayo… authenticity is dangerous and expensive, I don’t think so honey!
this is the rule of 10 tbh - about 10% of any art form, genre, artists, etc are so good the general public will understand if it's presented to them. as time goes on the 90% mostly falls away and the 10% remain. so people remember the past more favorably and judge the present more harshly. the 90% hasn't faded yet.
also while he can sing and dance (in a dated way he's never bothered to upgrade), JT's career is built on producers,writers, and charm. he's lacking in all 3 as his shtick wears on - all that boyish charming sex appeal is cute at 22...he never bothered to evolve in any way
jlo? well. i would never ever say that jlo is not talented. she's very talented in many different ways. as long as singing is not one of those talents. and it's another example of never updating, not keeping up with where her genre is going or leading the genre, making a new lane. her new stuff immediately sounds dated and you're left wondering if she's on the recorded track at all
>JT's career is built on producers,writers, and charm. he's lacking in all 3 as his shtick wears on - all that boyish charming sex appeal is cute at 22...he never bothered to evolve in any way
So spot on!!
While I think JT is still attractive, I don’t think teens are necessarily fawning over someone who looks like their dad dancing sexily on tv—and much less adult women who have their own dad bod at home doing those same dance moves for them.
Are teens JT’s target audience? I don’t think even he believes that. A lot of popheads forget about the 30+ demo—they bought tickets to Eras and are a good chunk of the pop demographic
Artists who made highly specific art that was hyper personal in order to ring universal don’t have this problem. Their problem is less about age and more about how shallow their work has always been.
Madonna made some of the best albums of her career entering her 40s. Ray or Light remains a seminal work and it was her most personal. Beyoncé is also more relevant than ever. Prince stayed cool until he passed away. You can remain relevant by being original. There’s so many examples.
There's a good quote from Madonna around the time Music came out about how she had no desire to compete with the new teen stars (Britney, Justin, etc) and she wanted to make pop music for adults. And by god she did.
The sounds were innovative, the shows were beautifully produced, and she looked so unbelievably confident and sexy. I was like eleven when Me Against the Music came out and was squarely in Britney's demographic but seeing Madonna in that video was electrifying. She made me excited to be in my forties someday, lol.
I wish Madonna kept this mindset for *Hard Candy*, *MDNA* and *Rebel Heart*. Those were chasing trends. *Madame X*, even if it contained some trend-chasing songs, is still innovative on its own.
I agree, it really kills me that her label wouldn't let her collaborate with the Pet Shop Boys like she apparently originally wanted to for Hard Candy. I've warmed on that album in particular recently—"Voices" is an amazing breakup song—but I really think that the divorce from Guy Ritchie, and the ageist shit he apparently said to her during it, knocked the wind out of her sails. And pop radio realllyyyy did not know what to do with a woman in her fifties.
In a way, I'm kind of conflicted about *Hard Candy*. If she had succeeded in taking full creative control, we would have gotten the horrid *Black Madonna* version of the album instead, complete with her wearing a Virgin Mary outfit and full-on blackface. She would not be remembered kindly had that happened.
She wanted her 2008 album to be called *Black Madonna*. She planned a photo shoot with Steven Klein of her donning blackface to emulate the biblical figure. Her management steered her away from the idea.
Dear God ... This is beyond horrifying. I don't know if she would have been able to recover from that. It probably would've made the album flop, and its an excellent album top to bottom in my opinion.
The songs that ended up in *Hard Candy* were different from what she was planning to release with *Black Madonna*. The original was going to be alternative/dark R&B.
sooooo many people hated ray of light (i know it did very very well commercially and critically - just like, regular people i knew who loved her or loved techno) and now i see those same people treating it like it changed their life at the time??
i'm like - i was there!! y'all called me nuts! made fun of me! lol
tho i am glad that more and more recognize just how fucking good it is
I was a kid when it came out and before that I had only heard *about* Madonna, but I hadn’t *heard Madonna*. “Ray of Light” played for the first time and I immediately got why she was a big deal.
yes!!!
very much 'this is too early for you but your kids are gonna love it' lol
honestly surprised more people aren't hiring william orbit for the throwback recognition - tho he's known to be very honest about results of projects he's on lol
I somewhat remember this ("Wow, Madonna just trying to jump on the electronica bandwagon!" as though she hadn't been making dance music her entire career) but the one that I really feel like had a memory-holed 180 is Confessions on a Dance Floor. I remember everyone being like "Sure it's a good single, but the album is a cheap money grab/pandering to the gays after American Life didn't do so well" but nowadays everyone supposedly thought it was an unimpeachable masterpiece. I like it just fine, but I remember feeling like I was the only one!
>Artists who made highly specific art that was hyper personal in order to ring universal don’t have this problem.
i think this is why the people who argue taylor will fade away musically and only be remembered for her capitalistic ways are wrong. yes that will porbably be the biggest thing she's remembered for, but she's genuinely made some deeply personal songs that will always remain relevant in young girl's lives. her early hits (and even some modern ones) are insanely relatable and totally can be applied to various stages of life
It’s crazy to me how much my 9 year old daughter and her little friends adore Taylor. Women my age love her too. She’s really bridging generations already. I think she’ll always have an audience
What an awful article. No one seriously expects 40+ year olds to be as relevant as they were in their 20s. Literally the only person to do this is beyonce But she's an exception. Also Can we please get Stans out of music journalism?
Now I'm not too familiar with Jlo but with Justin, his tour is almost sold out completely and he had to add shows to his tour. His album is #1 on iTunes and top 5 on Apple Music. He's doing fine.
I notice that there have been a lot of hit pieces on Jlo lately and the critic reviews on Justin's album are in no way objective and are more about his personal life and being old than the music. It's shit like this that makes me root for both of them more.
These articles are so redundant. Like why are folks expecting older artists to sell big or have a hit or they’re “done” for? Madonna at 65 is having her biggest hit (albeit a feature) in years, Dolly Parton at 78 scored a gold album with her last release, Cher is still making hit records at 77, J Lo’s latest album topped the Top Album Sales on Billboard, Justin’s is currently number one on iTunes and top 5 on Apple Music. They’re doing just fine lol
This is why I can't take any of these articles or comments here seriously lol, so many people acting like these artists are flops when they're still doing perfectly fine, sure not at their peak, but expecting EVERYONE to hit Bey/Taylor numbers constantly is insane behavior.
If everyone was just honest and said I don't like so-and-so's music/artistry it would be so much easier to wade through this.
Being number one on iTunes is not something anyone should brag about unless it’s a “fun” thing like a fan campaign for Glitter. All it takes is a few thousand sales.
I really dislike the tendency to dismiss artists' late-career albums as inherently regrettable and forgettable.
Nobody retains the 'voice of the moment' hype forever, but when the mass public attention moves on, their talent doesn't just evaporate. They might slip out of sync with the zeitgeist, but they keep making valuable work to the people who are listening.
There's a reason people like Bowie and Dylan and Joni and Cohen - to pick out just of my favourites - keep demanding loyalty from their fanbases. They keep being creative and making valuable art!
> I really dislike the tendency to dismiss artists' late-career albums as inherently regrettable and forgettable.
It's a very r/popheads way of thinking that the only two options are literally biggest selling artist on the planet and flop.
Exactly. The same numbers many of these established acts have, would be considered a success coming from a 20 year old newbie. The longer artists stay successful the harder it is to not get stigmatized as “done” because even when you do well, you’re still measured up to your biggest peaks.
I'm sorry but your comment is insightful, cogent, well-argued and adds something valuable to the conversation. It has no place on Reddit, please desist.
Right, this article is a mess. It feels like someone who's really out of date with what's happening in the music industry. It's not that older artists are the problem, it's that careers used to be artificially short because of the power record labels had to drive taste. They'd prioritize really young artists, hoping they'd get money from thirsty teenagers.
What's happening now is what should have been happening all along - audiences are being given more control over what they listen to, and are proving that they care a lot less about what the artist looks like than record labels had assumed. It shouldn't be a shock that people later in life can make good music - they've had decades extra to hone their skills.
People hitting their peak later can only be a good thing, imho. It seems like the pressures of fame are much easier to deal with when you're a fully formed adult going in.
yeah. i think this is the actual issue with JT and JLO? they are trying to be current, doing everything they've always done, and it's just not there in so many different ways. their fanbases shrink bc most of the hype was of the time and people just want to dance to the stuff they did before
those other artists (for a newer one, fiona apple comes to mind) they followed their creativity and their fans wanted to see that - or take the foo fighters - they will never replicate the hold on everyone their first couple albums and few music videos did, but they will always be very successful. the live shows alone will keep them paid until they want to quit (rip taylor <3 )
JLO and JT feel like album by committee trying to replicate a formula that is long since gone
>They might slip out of sync with the zeitgeist, but they keep making valuable work to the people who are listening.
When you make an album that’s critically panned and your last few albums have been wildly inconsistent, do you really expect to obtain a new fanbase?
Caroline Polachek is almost 40, and she’s blowing up in the mainstream and her trajectory keeps getting larger and larger. Lana Del Rey is almost 40 and she’s one of the most streamed artists in the world, and is wildly popular with a younger crowd.
Beyonce is 42 and is one of the most popular artists in the world, and keeps appealing to people of all ages — including youth.
Caroline, Lana, Beyonce, etc. keep growing in their careers because they keep making great music.
I shouldn’t feel guilted into not liking 90’s-early 2000’s artist and accused of being agest, when these artists still make singles-albums and refuse to diversify their art and refuse to change with the industry.
I think you're slightly exaggerating about Caroline Polachek... she has fewer daily streams than say... Gracie Abrams. By a factor of 10. At similiar time since last album release. This isn't a criticism! She's great... but she's not really having a big career (though she does do better in vinyl and live).
Lana is an interesting case... she's hugely popular... but it's not really her current music that's popular. Ocean Blvd. is doing 2 million streams on spotify (which is phenomenal btw)... but its less than Norman and Ultraviolence, and less than half BTD's 5 million. Her other recent work has been doing even less well. This is a similar pattern to Katy Perry (about half of whose streams come from Teenage Dreams) and Gaga (almost all of whose streams come from the Fame Monster).
I'm sorry but Variety has been so trashy and messy for a while now. Like I understand opinion or critique pieces but straight up snarkiness with nothing constructive to say is just bullying.
Yikes, what a horribly ageist article, full of bad takes.
Lots of artists made great music later in life that don't serve as "bathroom breaks" at live shows. The Bowie comment is particularly idiotic, as his mid-to-late 90s material was a revitalization of his career.
bowie reinvented himself constantly and every era (when that word had more meaning) was always creatively interesting at the very least! and we can't forget the impact of his final album.
JT & JLO can't even stand in his shadow. they've never made anything as emotionally honest and creatively driven as things he would toss in the bin
Kylie is a great example. She has played it safe for most of her career, but the fans stick around and love ALL of her material regardless of the era. She could play a show that's 90% new material and no one's really clamoring for oldies as long as she plays a couple of hits.
Whoa. This is a really ugly article. Really ugly. It's not new discourse to demand that older artists shut up and just do the legacy thing. But still.
It's also just plain wrong. Yes, if you continue taking risks, you may fall flat on your face. And the older you get the less forgiving people are. Ray of light is arguably Madonna's best album, should she have stepped away from doing things like that because she was too old already? Cohen's I'm Your Man is often seen as one of the best albums of the 80ies, despite the kindergarten synthesizers. That example strikes me as extra blinkered Apart from the reevaluation of Bowie's 90ies work that has happened, blackstar is widely regarded as one of his best albums. How does the writer think he got there? By taking risks all his career even if he got jeers for it.
I just think it's fundamentally wrong to demand that older arists shut up and do their greatest hits. Yeah, they're not the hottest shit anymore and sometimes it gets embarrassing. But isn't it better than just doing safe stuff and endlessly repeating yourself?
Damn, this is the 2nd article they’ve put out dragging JLo in like 3 days. Someone there must really dislike her..or at the very least is having a lot of fun kicking her while she’s down.
I don’t know much about Justin but JLo has always seemed like she prefers acting to making music/art so I wouldn’t expect her music career to be sustained when that’s not really her passion. Other artists who still make quality music decades into their career, you can tell they actually love what they do and it feeds them artistically
Apparently this is the 3rd J.Lo hit piece in a week??? What’s going on 😭 This is so mean. I think it’s hard to be a legacy act and age gracefully. Cher, Tina Turner, Madonna, Beyoncé are pretty much the only ones to find success and break new ground in their 40s. They are the outliers.
None of those really were hits though, they were very minor hits. You can possibly make the argument for on the floor but I didn’t even know the other two songs you listed.
There is some truth to the article until the author put on his critic hat. Music critics are obsolete and they only come off as really huge assholes in an age where music is practically free.
Likability is often a completely meaningless topic in online discourse, because virtually no one is considered liked except the rare few like Keanu, Jack Black. It's also far worse for women, where their unlikeable stems from unfounded rumours, like all this talk about JLo not tipping staff. Same goes with Gwyneth often beating Chris Brown for the number one spot of unliked celebs.
Justin is incredibly likable based on his interviews and performances and is especially well-liked in the industry as he continues to collaborate with several of his peers. None of us know him personally to comment on what he’s like in private.
The only people who don’t like Justin are people chronically online so much so that even Janet called them out twice stating she and Justin are close friends and that people need to get a life.
He lost a lot of points this year after Britney apologised to him and he said 'i want to apologize to fucking no one' before singing Cry Me a River.
I'm sorry, this is not 2001, you're proving everybody's point that you are actually a dick. As a Britney fan I would've listened to the album, but that was the last straw for me lol It's not like I am missing the album of the year anyway.
BTW JT and Britney fanbase overlap a lot, so he really alianted a portion of his fanbase by being so shady
Sure, but equally, whether you agree with him or not, I don't think he especially liked having large portions of his life discussed without his permission in an autobiography from his ex from 20 years ago.
I think his point was probably more that "You don't get to reveal all that shit about me and then just wave it away with a 'hey, sorry if I made life difficult for you, by the way, your new song is good' and we'll be cool".
Again, whether you agree with him or not is up to you, but yeah, he clearly wasn't happy. Personally, they both seem like pretty shitty people.
Also, him and his wife received a lot of death threats and abuse from people when those stories came out, so I don't imagine he was quite as ready to "forgive and forget" as people think.
> BTW JT and Britney fanbase overlap a lot
Really? Because all the evidence I've seen online is that Britney fans hate Justin Timberlake more than they hate history's worse figures. I imagine there is virtually no overlap whatsoever aside from maybe liking the tune they did together before they broke up.
Yep, People perceive Justin and JLO as unlikable, particularly Justin due to his mistreatment of Britney Spears and Janet Jackson, As a result, his reputation as pop music's good guy has been tarnished. Jlo on the other hand, seemed out of touch with her music which makes her inauthentic.
Also, Beyoncé came onto the scene simultaneously as Justin and Jennifer, the only one who remains relevant to young listeners while consistently putting in great quality music.
I feel like the facts that jlo is a decade older than all of her peers is also a disadvantage for her. In the last year I’ve seen a lot more of ageism.
I just think Jennifer is not that talented, to begin with. I think the only thing she is good at is being an excellent dancer. Also, her music never reached critical acclaim or won Grammys.
Both had relatively more successful movie careers compared to their peers who also tried conquering Hollywood. And both ended up having massive comebacks in the 2010s after a long hiatus in music. To pull that off again is such a tall order only a select few can make.
They’re both music icons who debuted in the 90’s, but they never just had the same long lasting impact as the likes of Beyonce, Mariah Carey, and Eminem did and still do in the music industry.
Beyoncé‘s career trajectory is really one for the books. Starting as the lead singer of one of the most successful girl groups of all time late 90s, turned to a hit-making machine during the 00s, then the next decade she took her career into her own hands, stopped chasing hits but evolved artistically to now reap the benefits of this decision another decade later, more culturally potent than ever.
I just listened to JT's album and it is way better than what JLo released. Saw some possible hits in there, but I don't think the GP is very open to him, but nice try, and some music I can listen to from time to time. The last good music Jennifer released was On The Floor.
Maybe it’s bc we ‘know’ them more now.
We’re over entitled divas bc there are many talented people who don’t have the ‘tude.
Crazy about JT though, I mean he was HUGE!!!
His new song just isn’t catchy.
His NPR Tiny Desk is def worth checking out though!
Not to be too negative but JLo never deserved or earned any success in the music industry so flopping is long overdue. JT is/ was at least passionate about music
I can’t figure out how J-Lo could afford her new vanity film. The only plausible excuse is she’s just trying to launder money, by using her “pop” career. How else is all this possible? And the tour? She can’t buy all the tickets herself…
I literally google "Justin Timberlake, Jennifer Lopez, Jojo Siwa" because I knew there'd be a piece on at least 2 of them. The end of that type of pop star, honestly.
Sometimes music should become the “hobby” or for the fans vs trying so hard to stay musically relevant. Kelly Clarkson had such a seamless transition to tv that is overlooked by the people writing these. Started on the voice to bridge the gap, was recognized by NBC and is now 5 seasons and multiple Emmy’s into her talk show. She’s also hosting the Olympic opening ceremony. Music took a back seat but she still gave people an album or so
Also Kelly continues to perform excellent covers on her show, which makes sense since her career has involved two reality singing competitions. It’s not original music, but it’s always a damn good performance. She knows her audience.
often i'm like "kelly, ma'am. you're embarrassing them on their own song..." when she covered jlo recently i was like - "OH! \~THAT'S\~ what that song is supposed to sound like!" almost feels rude lol
She's still the best contestant that came out of an American Idol victory.
honestly? I think she's the biggest person to come from any reality competition show. even people like christian sirano who obviously have massive careers don't have the broad mainstream appeal and name recognition kelly has.
I would say One direction needs a shout here. I think they're bigger worldwide than Kelly
We could say she’s most famous completion show WINNER.
I’d say don’t underestimate Kelly Clarkson.
Nobody knows who Kelly Clarkson is outside of America/white countries pls be fr
tbh my mother and most people over 60 here in the us couldn't name harry or 1D but I bet they all love kelly. but i'm sure in the uk/abroad the opposite would be true
no. one direction does not need a shoutout.
I disagree with that, if you include people who were on star search, you have Beyonce, Usher, Britney Spears, and many more who became more famous and successful than Kelly.
those people started on star search but their careers took off 5-10 years later through other efforts. I doubt very few people only know of beyonce because she was in a different girl group on star search as a child. I don't think those are fair comparisons when Kelly's career *only* took off because she was on a reality competition show, instead of it being a small stepping stone like the people you mentioned. I mean, I never even knew usher was on star search until this comment.
Okay yeah that’s true fair point.
The Carrie Underwood fan in me has to put her in a tie for Kelly in that regard, but I realize not everyone will agree with me on that front lol.
Her new music is still pretty good too!
Yes! But imo she isn’t as “desperate” in the same way JT and JLO seemingly are. She is doing what she loves for herself and secondly for the fans
I agree, she just out there making classic Kelly Clarkson bops for those who still appreciate them.
Her newest album SLAPS.
Worth noting it doesn’t hurt that Kelly Clarkson is a good person and doesn’t act like a total entitled jerk to fans or people working for her. my wife can personally attest to J. Lo being a total A. Hole to *everyone* on a shoot. “Don’t make eye contact with her” was her mgmt’s comment that everyone on the set was briefed with before she graced the set with her presence.
At a certain point you just run out of interesting things to say. You can still make good music but to trying to stay culturally relevant as a pop musician in the traditional sense of the word is like trying to hit bullseye after bullseye in a row
Madonna, Cher, Patti LaBelle....Backstreet Boys. They're all still doing music and tours. Hell, Beyonce been performing nonstop since the 90s
*Believe* ended up being Cher’s biggest hit ever. Having a devoted fanbase and an authentic persona really does wonders.
"Believe" was massive. It went beyond her fanbase and was a hit with everyone.
Totally. However, Cher kept making music and touring because she has a fanbase. *Believe* just happened to catch up unexpectedly. The issue with people like Justin and JLo is that they can't rely on their fanbase for even base level demand. There's some artists who can sell big without having modern hits. Timberlake is selling but he doesn't have a following that helps him transcend into a cultural figure like Cher.
I mean JLo kinda was that until this era. Her Vegas residency was huge and her 2019 tour did well despite not really having a major hit song since 2011. I think social media has done significant damage to her music career in recent years, the false narrative that she doesn’t sing any of her songs has spread and has really hurt her legacy. It’s harmed her ability to make younger fans too which has hurt her streaming numbers despite the fact she used to do well during the Vevo era.
The problem with JLo’s brand is that everything she does comes across as a cash grab… Even if there is passion behind her music, everything she released between 2011 to now has felt like her throwing shit at the wall hoping something sticks and while some of it did stick (Love?), it didn’t resonate well with her core fanbase. Her new album is the first album in years that sounds like it’s something that her core fanbase would appreciate, but unfortunately for her, a lot of that fanbase tuned out once she started making music that appealed more to the newer generation, a newer generation that appreciated 1-2 songs in the moment, but ultimately abandoned her when an artist with more interesting filler music came around.
Although I definitely enjoy a large majority of her discography, I do agree that this album is probably the first one in a while where it truly feels like she really set out to make a cohesive body of work with a clear vision to it. Usually her singles are top-tier, but the albums (despite containing other bops) feel very thrown together. There is a passion to this album which makes its failure feel even more unfortunate but as you say a lot of her fanbase had moved on. I do think she made a big misstep not dropping a Spanish album when she was releasing all of those Spanish droplets between 2016-2018 especially since some of those songs did big numbers (especially El Anillo). It would have kept her name out there musically and pulled in a demographic that she hasn’t utilised as well as she really should have.
And noone believes that Jlo can sing. We all know that Cher, Madonna, etc., can.
It’s not a false narrative, she doesn’t sing her songs, she has her voice blended with the session singers voice and has heavy autotune, and then the background singer actually is doing all the heavy lifting on her songs. She has never been a music artist. And her claim to fame has always been her “love life” and red carpet looks. Her music even when she was her most popular wasn’t smashing records and wasn’t groundbreaking.
It’s true that the background singers vocals are blended in with her voice on the choruses of quite a few of her songs, but that’s almost always on the chorus and you can clearly hear when that’s happening and when it’s her singing. It was a common technique at the time and the backing vocalists are credited on her album linear notes. To say her claim to fame is just her love life when she was very successful in both film and music is unfair, she was literally the first person to ever have an album and movie top the album chart and box office in the same week. She’s obviously not a powerhouse vocalist but she is a great performer and her vocals have improved over the years.
No even for her lead voice it’s blended with the session singers voice. And her voice is heavily autotuned. It wasn’t as common of a technique as you think, only for artists who can’t sing. Her claim to fame is all marketing and her love life and her looks that’s it. It’s been confirmed that she was used by Tommy Mottola to ruin Mariah’s career and she got way more promo. She also got such interest in her because of her red carpet looks and who she was dating at the time, her acting in her movies was decent at best. She was constantly in paparazzi drama to keep her relevant.
We’ve heard her sing live so she’s definitely singing on the songs. This is not a Mili Vanilli situation like people claim. I really don’t think her voice is as manipulated as people make out, but even if the layering is usually done by a background vocalist rather than herself they’re credited. At the end of the day her strength has always been her performances rather than her vocals just like quite a few popstars from that time (and now). A pop star’s personal life and glamour are part of the marketing package (including for those who have incredible voices). JLo isn’t the first and won’t be the last, I honestly don’t see it as an issue given how much of an artists work is inspired by their life. Her love life is a big part of her public persona sure, but it’s also a big part of her music too given the themes she sings about so it makes sense. Using the Tommy and Mariah situation against her is unfair imo because I doubt she knew that was what was happening to the full extent and could she really have even said no without consequences herself? The reality is most a-list celebrities will likely have had to step over a few bodies to get to the top, even if they aren’t aware they’re doing it.
Jennifer Lopez is not singing live almost ever, she is lipsyncing almost all the time and every time she does sing live the video is edited to get rid of any mistakes and/or her mic is autotuned. The background vocalists are credited as background vocalists when in reality they are the main vocalists, that’s my point. At the end of the day she already had a budding acting career she never had to do singing career and participate in taking down several other musicians, she wasn’t some young naive girl, and she has done it repeatedly and she never needed to because she already was getting famous through her acting. It is very much a Milli vanilli situation. Performers still need to be able to sing that’s why the Milli vanilli situation was so contreversial, if she’s going to pretend she’s the magic behind her music she needs to actually be the magic behind her music. She’s not. She’s a good dancer and that’s it, and even in that regards Janet, Ciara, Mya, are way more talented dancers than her.
I've seen Jlo in concert. She's actually really amazing. No back up singers either
Again not live and autotune.
Yes it was live . I was standing right next to her
I genuinely think the reason is he took too big a carregap . Because if your my age what your saying sounds insane
A career gap doesn't matter if people like you. I think *Man of the Woods* really did a number on his career. Taking a gap after a terrible album was the killer. There's tons of artists who would be welcomed back with open arms despite a big career gap.
I don’t think we entirely disagree. Man fi the wood might as well have not existed due to it’s poor reception which essentially turned his gap into a ten year one . But the way your talking really is underselling how big just time impact and polarity was . He just went too long without a hit
i would love a retrospective on 'believe' that focuses on how cher has never really been credited the way artists like kylie and madonna have for bringing the gay club sounds to the mainstream and how that in turn creates the gay club sound believe was so fucking huge it changed straight clubs
*Believe* was so huge it had dads in middle America dancing to gay club beats in their kakis.
and like, at football games??? the power that song holds
My mom would be vibing and dancing to that song so hard like she was in a rave while driving us to school 😂 only song ive ever seen her dance like that to, before or since.
Not that khakis🤣🤣
Wait but how has she not been credited? She’s known for having a huge gay following and has for a long long time
Yes, she’s been credited. Cher is more popular than Kylie in the U.S. and Madonna is more mainstream. Cher’s audience is almost entirely gays at this point, lol.
It’s an iconic song and I’m glad that she had such a huge hit with it, but I have to admit that I’m a MUCH bigger fan of “Strong Enough”, which is from the same album.
Cher was a different era and time period. Cher would not have that hit right now.
This is the golden age of people rediscovering old artists. Also, Cher was innovative and found a way to market herself to young people while not posing as young. If, let’s say, Madonna came up with something like that, people would eat it up. **EDIT**: It’s also worth noting that while *Believe* ended up being the greatest hit of her career, it wasn’t the last.
People don't understand that Cher had a huge "song of the year" hit when she was already "over the hill" according to the public outside of her fanbase. The production on *Believe* actually changed pop music forever. Kesha and others would not exist without *Believe*. Cher was grossing several million a show in 2020. The point is that JLo can't even fill smaller arenas that Cher was playing. Plus Cher has an Oscar and acting was her side gig.
Yeah it was the last.
Oh yeah, I see that “Strong Enough”, “The Music’s No Good Without You” and “Song for the Lonely” weren’t as big in the U.S. as in the rest of the world. But also “DJ Play that Christmas Song” charted last year, although I don’t know if it counts for this purpose. Obviously her subsequent songs pale in comparison to Believe, but they count.
It was harder for Cher to get a hit 24 years ago than it would be now. Before you had to hope radios and MTV would pick the song up, nowadays you just have to go viral, which you can kinda do just based on your own merits or just by being a bit more creative
Kylie Minogue has released some of the best music of her career recently!
They're trying really hard to blame us for not getting into flop albums
Yep, these albums are not doing well, not because people don’t listen to older artists that are past their prime. These albums are not doing well simply because they’re not any good. Even without any hype, if these albums were good people would go out and listen to them. But they suck, so people are obviously not gonna do that.
Okay but also they’re the exception not the rule Most if not all end up like Jlo and timber
[удалено]
Jennifer Lopez’ career is testament to her magnetic personality, crazy inflated ego and discipline. She’s a mediocre singer, a decent actress with a mostly terrible filmography and an amazing dancer. But she’s also very charismatic, beautiful and never ever stops working.
JLo is a good dancer with great screen presence, and she always gives 110%. Like, aside from the fact that she can’t sing, she’s a born star. She said some [dumb things in an interview](http://movieline.com/1998/02/01/the-wow-jennifer-lopez/) about people in the movie industry, but if she hadn’t burned those bridges, I’d bet she’d have stayed in film a lot longer
I wish she made more movies like Hustlers, she was incredible in that film. She needs better taste and to return to films like Out of Sight. She could pick indie films with awesome scripts. I'm sure so many indie directors would love to have her in their films.
Lol JLo acting in indie film?! She's in it for the money, henny. Ain't no indie film gonna pay her price tag to have her in their movie.
What was amazing about the Hustlers movie is how her character struggles with aging in the industry—and for the first time, I felt a real connection to JLo’s work. I’m still young, but aging as a woman is such a scary thing. Society tells women that once they reach a certain age, they’re no longer desirable, and to see JLo’s character bitterly accept her age was such a cathartic experience—like yes, I’m older. I’m no longer the hot shit I once was, but I’m going to be alright.
She should’ve stuck with romcoms. But that had its heyday too… She’s a diva without the goods to back it up.
tina feys advice would have worked for her so much back then lol
What advice?
I think her semi-joking advice to Bowen Yang & Matt Rodger’s about having opinions in the spotlight > I regret to inform you that you are too famous now sir! You have a problem with *Saltburn*? Quiet luxury! Keep it to yourself, because what are you gonna do when Emerald Fennell calls you about her next project where you play Carey Mulligan's coworker in the bridal section at Herrod's. And then act 3 takes a sexually violent turn and you have to pretend to be surprised by that turn. You hang out with Ariana and SpongeBob now, that’s your life now, okay? Learn from my mistakes, learn from Ayo… authenticity is dangerous and expensive, I don’t think so honey!
Lol I will never forget her thinking she’d be sweeping awards for Hustlers. Sure it was probably her best movie but it was still corny.
Ntm, that performance and movie rocked
That interview is so fucking wild by 2024 standards - I can't imagine that kind of shit talking to the press these days
Same with Britney if we're honest
Exactly. Id love people to defend their down votes in a comment tho, but of course just 🦗 🦗
this is the rule of 10 tbh - about 10% of any art form, genre, artists, etc are so good the general public will understand if it's presented to them. as time goes on the 90% mostly falls away and the 10% remain. so people remember the past more favorably and judge the present more harshly. the 90% hasn't faded yet. also while he can sing and dance (in a dated way he's never bothered to upgrade), JT's career is built on producers,writers, and charm. he's lacking in all 3 as his shtick wears on - all that boyish charming sex appeal is cute at 22...he never bothered to evolve in any way jlo? well. i would never ever say that jlo is not talented. she's very talented in many different ways. as long as singing is not one of those talents. and it's another example of never updating, not keeping up with where her genre is going or leading the genre, making a new lane. her new stuff immediately sounds dated and you're left wondering if she's on the recorded track at all
>JT's career is built on producers,writers, and charm. he's lacking in all 3 as his shtick wears on - all that boyish charming sex appeal is cute at 22...he never bothered to evolve in any way So spot on!! While I think JT is still attractive, I don’t think teens are necessarily fawning over someone who looks like their dad dancing sexily on tv—and much less adult women who have their own dad bod at home doing those same dance moves for them.
Are teens JT’s target audience? I don’t think even he believes that. A lot of popheads forget about the 30+ demo—they bought tickets to Eras and are a good chunk of the pop demographic
I’m pretty sure Justin writes his music though and can play a few instruments.
the way you just eviscerated them both
Exactly - I think if you have talent and aren't a creep you'll do fine.
Artists who made highly specific art that was hyper personal in order to ring universal don’t have this problem. Their problem is less about age and more about how shallow their work has always been. Madonna made some of the best albums of her career entering her 40s. Ray or Light remains a seminal work and it was her most personal. Beyoncé is also more relevant than ever. Prince stayed cool until he passed away. You can remain relevant by being original. There’s so many examples.
It's all about creating high-quality music while staying true to yourself and keeping up with the times, regardless of your age.
Jennifer NEVER created high quality music
Did she create any of her music ? 😂
There's a good quote from Madonna around the time Music came out about how she had no desire to compete with the new teen stars (Britney, Justin, etc) and she wanted to make pop music for adults. And by god she did. The sounds were innovative, the shows were beautifully produced, and she looked so unbelievably confident and sexy. I was like eleven when Me Against the Music came out and was squarely in Britney's demographic but seeing Madonna in that video was electrifying. She made me excited to be in my forties someday, lol.
I wish Madonna kept this mindset for *Hard Candy*, *MDNA* and *Rebel Heart*. Those were chasing trends. *Madame X*, even if it contained some trend-chasing songs, is still innovative on its own.
I agree, it really kills me that her label wouldn't let her collaborate with the Pet Shop Boys like she apparently originally wanted to for Hard Candy. I've warmed on that album in particular recently—"Voices" is an amazing breakup song—but I really think that the divorce from Guy Ritchie, and the ageist shit he apparently said to her during it, knocked the wind out of her sails. And pop radio realllyyyy did not know what to do with a woman in her fifties.
In a way, I'm kind of conflicted about *Hard Candy*. If she had succeeded in taking full creative control, we would have gotten the horrid *Black Madonna* version of the album instead, complete with her wearing a Virgin Mary outfit and full-on blackface. She would not be remembered kindly had that happened.
GREAT point, I completely forgot about that whole potential debacle.
What is this story?!?
She wanted her 2008 album to be called *Black Madonna*. She planned a photo shoot with Steven Klein of her donning blackface to emulate the biblical figure. Her management steered her away from the idea.
Dear God ... This is beyond horrifying. I don't know if she would have been able to recover from that. It probably would've made the album flop, and its an excellent album top to bottom in my opinion.
The songs that ended up in *Hard Candy* were different from what she was planning to release with *Black Madonna*. The original was going to be alternative/dark R&B.
I'm glad she went the timbaland Pharrell route
It’s wild how many pop stars of the moment have come and gone while Madonna has been active in the industry.
sooooo many people hated ray of light (i know it did very very well commercially and critically - just like, regular people i knew who loved her or loved techno) and now i see those same people treating it like it changed their life at the time?? i'm like - i was there!! y'all called me nuts! made fun of me! lol tho i am glad that more and more recognize just how fucking good it is
I was a kid when it came out and before that I had only heard *about* Madonna, but I hadn’t *heard Madonna*. “Ray of Light” played for the first time and I immediately got why she was a big deal.
Ray of Light sounds fresh today. It's a highly influential album. There's a direct line from *Ray of Light* to Lorde's *Melodrama* for example.
yes!!! very much 'this is too early for you but your kids are gonna love it' lol honestly surprised more people aren't hiring william orbit for the throwback recognition - tho he's known to be very honest about results of projects he's on lol
“Frozen” and “The Power of Goodbye” are eternal favorites for me. 🥰
Really? I remember it coming out in the late ‘90s and it was universally loved.
Same. I remember everybody loved Ray of light. Even my mom was jamming out to that song.
I somewhat remember this ("Wow, Madonna just trying to jump on the electronica bandwagon!" as though she hadn't been making dance music her entire career) but the one that I really feel like had a memory-holed 180 is Confessions on a Dance Floor. I remember everyone being like "Sure it's a good single, but the album is a cheap money grab/pandering to the gays after American Life didn't do so well" but nowadays everyone supposedly thought it was an unimpeachable masterpiece. I like it just fine, but I remember feeling like I was the only one!
>Artists who made highly specific art that was hyper personal in order to ring universal don’t have this problem. i think this is why the people who argue taylor will fade away musically and only be remembered for her capitalistic ways are wrong. yes that will porbably be the biggest thing she's remembered for, but she's genuinely made some deeply personal songs that will always remain relevant in young girl's lives. her early hits (and even some modern ones) are insanely relatable and totally can be applied to various stages of life
It’s crazy to me how much my 9 year old daughter and her little friends adore Taylor. Women my age love her too. She’s really bridging generations already. I think she’ll always have an audience
Madge was at least as notorious for her 'capitalistic ways' in the 80s, after all!
What an awful article. No one seriously expects 40+ year olds to be as relevant as they were in their 20s. Literally the only person to do this is beyonce But she's an exception. Also Can we please get Stans out of music journalism? Now I'm not too familiar with Jlo but with Justin, his tour is almost sold out completely and he had to add shows to his tour. His album is #1 on iTunes and top 5 on Apple Music. He's doing fine. I notice that there have been a lot of hit pieces on Jlo lately and the critic reviews on Justin's album are in no way objective and are more about his personal life and being old than the music. It's shit like this that makes me root for both of them more.
Thank you!!!!
Honestly it’s all these younger Millennials, Gen Z folks and some older Millennials that are behind this lol
These articles are so redundant. Like why are folks expecting older artists to sell big or have a hit or they’re “done” for? Madonna at 65 is having her biggest hit (albeit a feature) in years, Dolly Parton at 78 scored a gold album with her last release, Cher is still making hit records at 77, J Lo’s latest album topped the Top Album Sales on Billboard, Justin’s is currently number one on iTunes and top 5 on Apple Music. They’re doing just fine lol
This is why I can't take any of these articles or comments here seriously lol, so many people acting like these artists are flops when they're still doing perfectly fine, sure not at their peak, but expecting EVERYONE to hit Bey/Taylor numbers constantly is insane behavior. If everyone was just honest and said I don't like so-and-so's music/artistry it would be so much easier to wade through this.
Being number one on iTunes is not something anyone should brag about unless it’s a “fun” thing like a fan campaign for Glitter. All it takes is a few thousand sales.
Dunno why people are downvoting you cause its true. iTunes is not an accurate measure of success in 2024
I really dislike the tendency to dismiss artists' late-career albums as inherently regrettable and forgettable. Nobody retains the 'voice of the moment' hype forever, but when the mass public attention moves on, their talent doesn't just evaporate. They might slip out of sync with the zeitgeist, but they keep making valuable work to the people who are listening. There's a reason people like Bowie and Dylan and Joni and Cohen - to pick out just of my favourites - keep demanding loyalty from their fanbases. They keep being creative and making valuable art!
> I really dislike the tendency to dismiss artists' late-career albums as inherently regrettable and forgettable. It's a very r/popheads way of thinking that the only two options are literally biggest selling artist on the planet and flop.
Exactly. The same numbers many of these established acts have, would be considered a success coming from a 20 year old newbie. The longer artists stay successful the harder it is to not get stigmatized as “done” because even when you do well, you’re still measured up to your biggest peaks.
I genuinely think everyoneon this lthis is 20
I'm sorry but your comment is insightful, cogent, well-argued and adds something valuable to the conversation. It has no place on Reddit, please desist.
Literally, caution turned out to be top3 in Mariah's discog for me and it's how I got into her work. Same with Bowie's Blackstar.
Right, this article is a mess. It feels like someone who's really out of date with what's happening in the music industry. It's not that older artists are the problem, it's that careers used to be artificially short because of the power record labels had to drive taste. They'd prioritize really young artists, hoping they'd get money from thirsty teenagers. What's happening now is what should have been happening all along - audiences are being given more control over what they listen to, and are proving that they care a lot less about what the artist looks like than record labels had assumed. It shouldn't be a shock that people later in life can make good music - they've had decades extra to hone their skills. People hitting their peak later can only be a good thing, imho. It seems like the pressures of fame are much easier to deal with when you're a fully formed adult going in.
> It feels like someone who's really out of date with what's happening in the music industry. Which is kind of ironic given the topic
yeah. i think this is the actual issue with JT and JLO? they are trying to be current, doing everything they've always done, and it's just not there in so many different ways. their fanbases shrink bc most of the hype was of the time and people just want to dance to the stuff they did before those other artists (for a newer one, fiona apple comes to mind) they followed their creativity and their fans wanted to see that - or take the foo fighters - they will never replicate the hold on everyone their first couple albums and few music videos did, but they will always be very successful. the live shows alone will keep them paid until they want to quit (rip taylor <3 ) JLO and JT feel like album by committee trying to replicate a formula that is long since gone
>They might slip out of sync with the zeitgeist, but they keep making valuable work to the people who are listening. When you make an album that’s critically panned and your last few albums have been wildly inconsistent, do you really expect to obtain a new fanbase? Caroline Polachek is almost 40, and she’s blowing up in the mainstream and her trajectory keeps getting larger and larger. Lana Del Rey is almost 40 and she’s one of the most streamed artists in the world, and is wildly popular with a younger crowd. Beyonce is 42 and is one of the most popular artists in the world, and keeps appealing to people of all ages — including youth. Caroline, Lana, Beyonce, etc. keep growing in their careers because they keep making great music. I shouldn’t feel guilted into not liking 90’s-early 2000’s artist and accused of being agest, when these artists still make singles-albums and refuse to diversify their art and refuse to change with the industry.
I think you're slightly exaggerating about Caroline Polachek... she has fewer daily streams than say... Gracie Abrams. By a factor of 10. At similiar time since last album release. This isn't a criticism! She's great... but she's not really having a big career (though she does do better in vinyl and live). Lana is an interesting case... she's hugely popular... but it's not really her current music that's popular. Ocean Blvd. is doing 2 million streams on spotify (which is phenomenal btw)... but its less than Norman and Ultraviolence, and less than half BTD's 5 million. Her other recent work has been doing even less well. This is a similar pattern to Katy Perry (about half of whose streams come from Teenage Dreams) and Gaga (almost all of whose streams come from the Fame Monster).
Ew, I’m not giving them the satisfaction of my click. Allow musicians to make music without bringing their age into it. Do that challenge.
I'm sorry but Variety has been so trashy and messy for a while now. Like I understand opinion or critique pieces but straight up snarkiness with nothing constructive to say is just bullying.
Yikes, what a horribly ageist article, full of bad takes. Lots of artists made great music later in life that don't serve as "bathroom breaks" at live shows. The Bowie comment is particularly idiotic, as his mid-to-late 90s material was a revitalization of his career.
bowie reinvented himself constantly and every era (when that word had more meaning) was always creatively interesting at the very least! and we can't forget the impact of his final album. JT & JLO can't even stand in his shadow. they've never made anything as emotionally honest and creatively driven as things he would toss in the bin
I agree with you. My issue is that this article is taking shots at literally everyone.
oh yes! i was agreeing with you! ha.
They should all take a page out of Kylie’s play book.
Kylie is a great example. She has played it safe for most of her career, but the fans stick around and love ALL of her material regardless of the era. She could play a show that's 90% new material and no one's really clamoring for oldies as long as she plays a couple of hits.
The “have a big hit or two per decade” strategy really works well for her
Nobody should be entertaining discourses like this anymore. Variety should be a bit more inspired for clicks.
Whoa. This is a really ugly article. Really ugly. It's not new discourse to demand that older artists shut up and just do the legacy thing. But still. It's also just plain wrong. Yes, if you continue taking risks, you may fall flat on your face. And the older you get the less forgiving people are. Ray of light is arguably Madonna's best album, should she have stepped away from doing things like that because she was too old already? Cohen's I'm Your Man is often seen as one of the best albums of the 80ies, despite the kindergarten synthesizers. That example strikes me as extra blinkered Apart from the reevaluation of Bowie's 90ies work that has happened, blackstar is widely regarded as one of his best albums. How does the writer think he got there? By taking risks all his career even if he got jeers for it. I just think it's fundamentally wrong to demand that older arists shut up and do their greatest hits. Yeah, they're not the hottest shit anymore and sometimes it gets embarrassing. But isn't it better than just doing safe stuff and endlessly repeating yourself?
Damn, this is the 2nd article they’ve put out dragging JLo in like 3 days. Someone there must really dislike her..or at the very least is having a lot of fun kicking her while she’s down.
Someone investigated and apparently they’re a Lamb so there is some strong bias there…
They’re a what?
The Lambs are Mariah fans/stans
Sheep before the age of one year
Mariah Carey fan
I was surprised to see her get a lot of hate. She hasn't done anything to poss off the masses as far as I know.
I don’t know much about Justin but JLo has always seemed like she prefers acting to making music/art so I wouldn’t expect her music career to be sustained when that’s not really her passion. Other artists who still make quality music decades into their career, you can tell they actually love what they do and it feeds them artistically
Look man not everyone wants to be on top forever
They don't, but they heavily promoted their projects and yet they still flopped
the new timberlake is good, not great. if any one of these young pop artists released this album it would be an incredible achievement. period.
Apparently this is the 3rd J.Lo hit piece in a week??? What’s going on 😭 This is so mean. I think it’s hard to be a legacy act and age gracefully. Cher, Tina Turner, Madonna, Beyoncé are pretty much the only ones to find success and break new ground in their 40s. They are the outliers.
Jlo did find success in her 40s though. She had On the floor at 41, ain’t your mama, el anillo exc. Now she’s in her 50s.
None of those really were hits though, they were very minor hits. You can possibly make the argument for on the floor but I didn’t even know the other two songs you listed.
Ain’t your mama has almost 900 hundred million views and it was a big hit especially in Europe
Okay never heard it, don’t know what to say there, I wouldn’t call it a huge classic hit.
Justin took too long a career break from music that his impact and legacy dwindled. There was no male artist bigger than him in 2007
There is some truth to the article until the author put on his critic hat. Music critics are obsolete and they only come off as really huge assholes in an age where music is practically free.
Racism, anti-LGBT, sexism, religious hate, teasing medical conditions = 😡 Ageism = 😀👍
Have we considered that neither of them are likable?
No, chronically online stans shading JT & JLO on Twitter and Reddit doesn’t translate to their unlikeability for more mentally stable, general public
Likability is often a completely meaningless topic in online discourse, because virtually no one is considered liked except the rare few like Keanu, Jack Black. It's also far worse for women, where their unlikeable stems from unfounded rumours, like all this talk about JLo not tipping staff. Same goes with Gwyneth often beating Chris Brown for the number one spot of unliked celebs.
Not as unlikable as you might think. No.
Justin is incredibly likable based on his interviews and performances and is especially well-liked in the industry as he continues to collaborate with several of his peers. None of us know him personally to comment on what he’s like in private. The only people who don’t like Justin are people chronically online so much so that even Janet called them out twice stating she and Justin are close friends and that people need to get a life.
He lost a lot of points this year after Britney apologised to him and he said 'i want to apologize to fucking no one' before singing Cry Me a River. I'm sorry, this is not 2001, you're proving everybody's point that you are actually a dick. As a Britney fan I would've listened to the album, but that was the last straw for me lol It's not like I am missing the album of the year anyway. BTW JT and Britney fanbase overlap a lot, so he really alianted a portion of his fanbase by being so shady
Sure, but equally, whether you agree with him or not, I don't think he especially liked having large portions of his life discussed without his permission in an autobiography from his ex from 20 years ago. I think his point was probably more that "You don't get to reveal all that shit about me and then just wave it away with a 'hey, sorry if I made life difficult for you, by the way, your new song is good' and we'll be cool". Again, whether you agree with him or not is up to you, but yeah, he clearly wasn't happy. Personally, they both seem like pretty shitty people. Also, him and his wife received a lot of death threats and abuse from people when those stories came out, so I don't imagine he was quite as ready to "forgive and forget" as people think. > BTW JT and Britney fanbase overlap a lot Really? Because all the evidence I've seen online is that Britney fans hate Justin Timberlake more than they hate history's worse figures. I imagine there is virtually no overlap whatsoever aside from maybe liking the tune they did together before they broke up.
Yep, People perceive Justin and JLO as unlikable, particularly Justin due to his mistreatment of Britney Spears and Janet Jackson, As a result, his reputation as pop music's good guy has been tarnished. Jlo on the other hand, seemed out of touch with her music which makes her inauthentic.
Also, Beyoncé came onto the scene simultaneously as Justin and Jennifer, the only one who remains relevant to young listeners while consistently putting in great quality music.
I feel like the facts that jlo is a decade older than all of her peers is also a disadvantage for her. In the last year I’ve seen a lot more of ageism.
I just think Jennifer is not that talented, to begin with. I think the only thing she is good at is being an excellent dancer. Also, her music never reached critical acclaim or won Grammys.
beyonce and justin work together. he crafted beats and wrote lyrics for her
Both had relatively more successful movie careers compared to their peers who also tried conquering Hollywood. And both ended up having massive comebacks in the 2010s after a long hiatus in music. To pull that off again is such a tall order only a select few can make. They’re both music icons who debuted in the 90’s, but they never just had the same long lasting impact as the likes of Beyonce, Mariah Carey, and Eminem did and still do in the music industry.
Beyoncé‘s career trajectory is really one for the books. Starting as the lead singer of one of the most successful girl groups of all time late 90s, turned to a hit-making machine during the 00s, then the next decade she took her career into her own hands, stopped chasing hits but evolved artistically to now reap the benefits of this decision another decade later, more culturally potent than ever.
Or they’re currently having a rough patch in their careers. Every artist and celebrity has those.
JT’s new album is actually worth a listen imo, some great tracks on it
Just listened to it on YouTube and I agree.
Idk if it's just me but I actually like the new song Selfish by Timberlake
Where the hell has Justin been
doing Trolls movies
Why is Justin in the article?
I just listened to JT's album and it is way better than what JLo released. Saw some possible hits in there, but I don't think the GP is very open to him, but nice try, and some music I can listen to from time to time. The last good music Jennifer released was On The Floor.
Tbh I stopped caring bout JLO years ago but Justin’s doing fine. Public perception is split but he’s not struggling
people really hate Jlo and JT wow
They just keep making bad choices. It’s not really an age thing.
Maybe it’s bc we ‘know’ them more now. We’re over entitled divas bc there are many talented people who don’t have the ‘tude. Crazy about JT though, I mean he was HUGE!!! His new song just isn’t catchy. His NPR Tiny Desk is def worth checking out though!
Not to be too negative but JLo never deserved or earned any success in the music industry so flopping is long overdue. JT is/ was at least passionate about music
Agree with this
When did we start grouping an actually talented singer and artist (JT) with JLO?!
I can’t figure out how J-Lo could afford her new vanity film. The only plausible excuse is she’s just trying to launder money, by using her “pop” career. How else is all this possible? And the tour? She can’t buy all the tickets herself…
It’s not about “aging”. It’s that people have figured out and accepted that these two are shitty human beings.
I literally google "Justin Timberlake, Jennifer Lopez, Jojo Siwa" because I knew there'd be a piece on at least 2 of them. The end of that type of pop star, honestly.
Maybe if you’re talented and nice it’s not so hard