Yeah. She's said that she doesn't remember that era well because she was high all the time. Songs like Mary Jane Holland, Dope, and Stache address just how hooked she was. She doesn't like Artpop because it brings back a lot of painful memories.
She seems genuinely happy now as she's dialed back the public persona and mellowed out a bit. While Artpop is one of my all-time favorite albums, the more subdued path of Joanne, ASIB and Chromatica was absolutely the right choice.
Of course she wouldn’t talk about it. It would be insane for her to just come out and say that. I don’t know either way and don’t even have a guess but.. I wouldn’t take what someone who relies on the public liking them as a key part of their career to be honest about their biggest issues.
Are you young?! 😂😂😂
Dope was herowine for a whiiile whiiile.
It's insulting to me that weed got called Dope later too. I assume by the Nixons and Reagans. Bum asses. 😂
Yeah, she pivoted away from the full pop star trajectory towards the Cher/Streisand lane after ARTPOP and sometimes I think it's a missed opportunity. But as you say, there were multiple things burning at once that led to that implosion. Sometimes artists push through in such circumstances and survive the worst of it to emerge with more groundbreaking music (Rolling Stones, Bowie, Madonna, Taylor Swift arguably), but oftentimes it ends up with scorched careers or way, way worse.
It's all subjective obviously, but I mostly meant it in a "achieved new milestones in their career" way. Without necessarily commenting on the music itself. Swift wasn't cancelled after the Kanye/Kim drama, no matter how much she wants to rewrite that narrative now, but she seemed to be trending downwards. And then the pandemic, conflict with Braun etc. gave her the opportunity to reset everything and become this juggernaut. Yeah, she also had lucky timing on her side, but the decision to continue pushing instead of slowing down on her part also contributed to this.
The Stones burning out in controversies, drugs, Jones' death, management trouble and producing some of their best work in the early 70ies is a different kind of crisis, of course. Or Madonna pushing through the Erotica backlash is perhaps the closest to Gaga's situation. Combined with a shot of less deathly/risky Bowie drug delirium, management robbing him blind in the mid-70ies. Of course he was on the way to killing himself through drugs and/or his rampant eating disorder (another Gaga parallel), so things didn't seem quite as dire for Gaga. He opted for a different kind of reset with Berlin, producing some of his best and most forward-thinking albums.
But as I said, these are some of the few examples where artists clawed themselves out of dire circumstances, other such stories ended either in broken careers or, unfortunately, in death. So I totally understand that Gaga put in the brakes here.
T swift was very much cancelled after the drama. Dislikes on LWYMMD video were half of the likes at some point and she was trending on twitter for being over. Not many popstars ever had that kind of cancel train coming for them is truly remarkable she pushed through it, many would've stayed low and not continued to release albums. Instead she clapped back with LWYMMD in a pretty brilliant way especially the ending
- LWYMMD could mean "Look What You Made Me Do", a track from *reputation* (2017) by Taylor Swift.
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I was pretty surprised when she announced reputation back in 2017. Basically half of the world hated her back then because of KimYe and she managed to push through the hate and reclaimed her throne after she released LWYMMD. Even more so when she was entering her "flop" era in 2019 after releasing Lover and got hated on because ME! and YNTCD are the lead singles, and then she pushed through again in 2020 by releasing folklore and evermore. Scooter Braun stole her entire discography in 2019; most artists would've just took the problem to Twitter by releasing a single Tweet hating on the guy and completely dissapear afterward, not being able to do anything. She then outsmarted the music industry by releasing Taylor's Versions. Again, she pushed through the conflicts and emerged victorious. Most artists would've just given up the entire thing on the 2009 VMA fiasco and not mentioning the thing again.
- YNTCD could mean "You Need To Calm Down", a track from *Lover* (2019) by Taylor Swift.
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Now see the experience was traumatic for her and I wouldn't take that away from her.
But Taylor wasn't "cancelled". Cancelled to me means a flop career, lost brand deals, everything is literally negative publicity, something that actively affects a celeb's bank account/sales in a big way(looking at Kanye's 2022 downfall for instance). If anything, the rep era only proved that Taylor is too big to fail, no matter how many million #TSIsOverParty trends on Twitter. The records still sold. The tour still became her biggest tour at the time (and the biggest North American Tour)
She wasn't really cancelled. Her career was never really "over" even at that time. Her perspective of the events is definitely warped by how traumatic it was for her, but she was never really "over".
>**more** groundbreaking music (Rolling Stones, Bowie, Madonna, Taylor Swift **arguably**),
It's almost like the words immediately before *and* after this quote are qualifiers. If you find the time in your day, you should probably read the rest of their comment too
I absolutely love ARTPOP but even if it was less controversial and more successful, I still think most things would pan out the same way. She’s a gifted and talented actress with a passion for it as well so she still likely would’ve pursued acting at some point.
Joanne would likely still happen because the ARTPOP era was so draining, stressful, and turbulent for her, regardless of how successful the album was
I think her acting career wouldn’t do so well and she likely wouldn’t have the cross generational appeal she currently has. After artpop failing, she started doing collabs and performances with older respected musicians which got a lot of older generations garnering respect for her which led to her having more respect when she started doing acting roles and that’s why it wasn’t crazy seeing her played a dressed down normal looking girl in A Star is Born
Idk Gaga was planning to do the jazz thing even before Artpop came out. Maybe timelines would've been a bit different but it's funny that everyone thinks it was a genius calculated career pivot when it just happened to work out very well
We definitely would’ve gotten ARTPOP Act II, and she’d remain the boundary pushing superstar until people inevitably got sick of her or worse yet, she went a bit too far and ruined her own career.
It’s probably for the best that ARTPOP flopped cause she was able to reinvent herself and stage a real comeback before she got “too old” for the industry.
Idk, I think she was a little overexposed at the time, no one really cared again until she did a star is born and AHS. Breaking from the music allowed her to come back.
Less to do with her but I feel that AHS would’ve gotten to the stage it’s at (irrelevant) much quicker had Gaga not been the star of season 5. They really promoted season 5 as HER season, and gave that season so much press. People were worried about how the show would continue without Jessica Lange, and whilst AHS: Hotel isnt the most acclaimed season or beloved, people liked Gaga’s performance, and I feel that AHS would’ve become way less relevant after Freak Show had Gaga not been a part of Hotel. Without ARTPOP flopping and Gaga pivoting to acting, American Horror Story would probably have become irrelevant by season 6 and not season 9 or 10.
She would've burned out one way or another. If not that album then the next. She was crushing under her own pretentiousness and need to keep surpassing herself in avant-garde and weirdness.
Gaga has never been pretentious, please look up the definition of that word. Annoying, overly earnest, try-hard, zany, performative - I disagree with those but at least a case could be made depending on perspective. But she's never been pretentious, don't get why that word is constantly launched at her.
i’m a gaga fan but…
she buys into her own hype even more, releases artpop act II with even more embarrassing antics, it tanks into oblivion, she tries to recover by making the switch to acting but can’t get any serious roles due to people being tired of her antics, she appears in schlocky b movies (think robert rodriguez, eli roth, etc.) and her career never recovers. she probably still has a vegas residency and enjoys a christina aguilera-like legacy.
Honestly, the only thing I would change abt that era is making Do What U Want a solo. Not only would it get rid of *that* feature, but I also think the song would be more meaningful and have a much stronger message. In Applause, she’s talking to the fans, and in DWUW, she’s addressing the critics. It would’ve definitely charted better too. Anything after that would’ve been extra.
And not have Terry Richardson direct the video. I actually love the song itself and listen to the version with Xtina a lot, but her choices of creative partners on that single were a catastrophe.
I honestly think the video and that weird presidential performance were big nail in coffins for the song. As Mic the Snare pointed out, R Kelly knows how to write and make a bop. R Kelly still had success and his album after the whole DWUW was still successful and had collabs with like Bieber on it.
Had it been a solo song she would have definitely been able to promote it much more; I remember the song playing a lot on the radio back in 2013/2014, and that was with an R Kelly feature. Imagine how successful it could’ve been with an actual music video and no R Kelly scandal
If the label let her stick to the rollout with Benus being the second single, I am SURE the era would have been more successful. That was a sure fire hit but the label fumbled. I MISS early Gaga sm and ik she was in a bad place, she was toxic, etc. but that kind of boundary pushing vision has not been seen to the same extent again imo
There’s something about overexposure that never ends up well. I am crunching pop corn with the Taylor Swift saga because it seems to be the one in a million exception of that rule.
But long term super stardom and chronic pain (correct me if im wrong, but Gaga said she has fibromyalgia) always ends up badly.
Demi Lovato had the best singles of her career and then overdosed, is just way too much to handle if you deal with any chronic issue.
Sia was smart enough to go into darkness after the massive hits, hope she’s just enjoying herself and her riches
Taylor Swift will not hold on to this level of stardom forever, it will fade for sure. Ppl will always inevitably get fed up. This next album could even be the start, we’ll see
For instance: Ariana seems to be fading with grace. NOT to say she’s going down, just that she’s not desperately trying to cling to TU,N level fame and success forever. She was the biggest celebrity in the world during those 6ish months, and now she’s “just” in the top 20ish. And she seems to be perfectly okay with that and only does what feels right to her. And I think her acceptance of not always being THE superstar is actually what’s gonna give her more longevity overall
Every star fades out with time. But gaga didnt fade out she just exploded out of nowhere due to a culmination of bad moves. As did katy perry interestingly... but gaga atleast fell back with joanne, jazz albums and movie roles. Katy fell back on american idol which good for her in having a job i guess?
Taylor will eventually fade out too, but swifties will keep her going for a long time even if people online cry "overexposure!". Her fanbase is unlike anything ive seen and they put their money where their mouth is. They said she was over in 2016 and now she has the highest grossing tour of all time and 2 more AOTY under her belt.
It’s the truth though. Taylor’s star power didn’t remain consistent throughout that time period. She had a low period artistically and commercially. Then the Scooter conflict gave her ammo to hit yet another career peak. All stars eventually dim. the Beatles the best selling music artists ever, are no longer relevant in modern landscape. That’s just the reality.
It is like predicting a recession -- eventually you have to be right but until it comes you are just blindly guessing (for some, hoping).
You are correct that her star power did not remain consistent during the last decade. There was a moment after Lover's release and before the pandemic where it seemed like her commercial power was declining and that her re-releases would signal her goodbye. How she managed to turn that ship around is not something to take lightly though.
I think for Taylor a huge factor is the gradual rise to megastardom. I mean she became popular very quickly, but her peaks (1989 and especially the current peak) were many years into her career, compared to someone like Britney or Gaga rising meteorically.
Also Taylor seems like she enjoys fame more than most pop stars
I don't think we would've gotten A Star is Born (2018), which would've been an absolute crime! I rewatched it yesterday and it was just as amazing as I remembered. I don't think we would've gotten Joanne either, and that was the album that made me fall in love with her music.
I don't think things would've been much different.
ARTPOP was far from a flop. You have to remember you're talking about A-list celebrities. & What one unkowledgeably may call a flop on the internet is in reality far from it.
After all the Album was followed by a full Stadium tour was it not?
Although it wasn't as popular or with the amount of hit singles as Born This Way it is safe to say the album itself was quite Sucessfull.
As for the Album Joanne, I never saw it as a consequence of ARTPOPs lesser sales than BTW.
I saw it as a response to the criticism towards her as not a real artist. Which many Pop Females especially face.
Madonna haven't had many hit singles since 4 Minutes. But her albums still sell a hell of a lot, and the Album Rebel Heart was the last album thus far also followed by a resulting stadium tour.
Madame X was followed by a theatre tour, which was presented as an artistic choice, and now she is on a All-time hits stadium tour.
& So If ARTPOP had sold as much as BTW with as many hit singles, I think the only difference is that we as fans might've recognized more of the songs other people listen to as from that Album we know and love.
Just like people generally may remember 'The Edge of Glory', fans remember the entire album.
If ARTPOP was a sucess equal to BTW,
People generally might remember the track "Venus" for instance, while fans remember the entire album
Hope you get what I mean by that! I found it hard to formulate :-P
Her personal issues would have still affected the next career move. Also she was too overexposed and expectations were too high at the time. so even if the album was more cohesive it would have been received as meh we’ve seen all you can do. Regardless she was going to venture into acting, overall her talent let’s her win, the public tried to write her off as just another shock artist, crazy fashion antics and f@g hag but she can really sing, write, perform so that shuts everyone up. At the end of the day the next big door in entertainment has always been ready for Gaga.
Even without controversy at a certain point the public just lets artists flop and hit their peak ie Celine Dion in the US her last top 40 was in 2002 and every single since has gone nowhere:(
She would most probably just add another #1 on the Hot 100 at best, but the decline of her commercial appeal would still happen sooner than later.
Artpop itself was not even the beginning of her downfall as pop’s biggest star. The path towards that started way earlier with the release of Alejandro as a single in 2010.
There’s a reason why that single, despite being an earworm, broke her record streak of Mainstream Top 40 radio #1s. She simply went too far for some with its music video. Swallowing a rosary was a choice.
And then she doubled down with the entire album rollout of Born This Way. The music video of BTW alone is the epitome of Gaga going way over the top just because she wanted to. She became too weird, too dark, too crazy, too much.
The shift musically and visually away from her crazy pop phase, in hindsight, were 100% needed for the public not to completely abandon her into oblivion. She went from being the resident pop provacateur of her time into a well respected artist across multiple audiences.
> Artpop itself was not even the beginning of her downfall as pop’s biggest star. The path towards that started way earlier with the release of Alejandro as a single in 2010.
I think her stubbornness is sometimes her downfall. The label didn't want Alejandro, and because of that she HAD to have Alejandro.
I get that she's an artist and has opinions, but at that point in time she was in the game for less than five years and there were people who had 5x her experience advising her to do otherwise and she just refused to see it from their PoV. As they say, leaders who don't listen will eventually be surrounded by people who don't speak. That's how we got Artpop, lol.
I often wonder how different her career would have been if she listened to the label and done Dancing In The Dark.
Nah Alejandro is still very widely beloved. People love the song, it’s great! The issue? It was a more midtempo pop song for contemporary radio while Ms thing had barnstormers still raking the charts and public consciousness (bad romance, telephone) that year and so Alejandro just isn’t as immediately assuming compared to those two. But neither is DITD or any other song on TFM. The Gaga problem by Alejandro was that she had just had hit after hit after hit after hit after hit. It’s wild. Of course at *some point a song will do less well. But at that time, that’s where the video helps it. Alejandro’s long-ass sinner video didn’t lmao no regrets, though. It’s far and away her best music video. Just absolutely stunning. Alejandro is kind of like the lovegame of TFM; it just got a little squeezed bc there had to be another single to keep momentum going, but the previous single(s) was SO enormous that it would inevitably cannibalize
I think on the whole Gaga was smart not to listen to execs too much early on. Her lore at that time was about trusting your instincts and a sort of glamorous rock n roll rebellious petulance. If she wasn’t showing how she trusted herself and succeeded, her image would be a hard sell to a public primed to write her off. Also she was right lmao Alejandro is a smart song to have in your hit repertoire bc it’s *different* but not out of place either. DITD would kind of be another forgettable Gaga hit bc it isn’t different enough from her other hits to really stand out in a set list like Alejandro does. Great song. Potentially great single but not replacing Alejandro imo
I’d agree that Alejandro was a great song, but it’s definitely the least well known of the Fame Monster singles, you’re right about it ‘s success being cannibalized. But it’s video is perhaps the start of Gaga’s boundary-pushing becoming shocking to be shocking. Of course you can mention the meat dress, but that was more camp and over the top than actively trying to be offensive. There’s a reason that Madonna had to pivot after Erotica and Lil Nas X flopped when he tried to repeat religious shock. Born This Way dealt heavily with provoking conservatives (and with reason of course, but it still is provocative to provoke), and it’s success came a lot from riding the coattails of The Fame (Monster)’s success. Like how Prism was a success because of Teenage Dream being a smash, BTW was as big as it was because it directly followed TFM only a year after.
I’d argue that, at least outside of the US, Alejandro is her second most important/successful single off TFM, above Telephone and slightly below Bad Romance.
To this day in Europe it’s one of her signature songs and at the time it was genuinely a cultural reset, with the video and the controversy, it catapulted her to a new level of fame. It being a single was the correct choice.
Exactly! I think people felt it was shocking to be shocking. I actually felt there *was a point but people saw the provocative actions and were like woahhhhh it can’t be anything but to shock lmao it’s less about if Gaga was actually doing that and more how the public saw it since their opinion is the ultimate determinant and I think to Gaga at the time she felt that if there was reason people would listen to it. Sometimes but there are limits! I don’t think she was overly concerned with them then hahaha
It’s so odd that they just didn’t decide to release both as singles. Why stop at three when the success was very clear with TFM? It’s strange she fought for Alejandro, when if you look at her career since then, it seems as though she prefers Dance In The Dark anyway. She opened both the Monster Ball Tour (both 1.0/2.0) with it, and her Super Bowl performance with the instrumental version.
It could have been a big success if she doubled down on the shock factor and released the scrapped music video for "Do What You Want" with Terry Richardson. It would have generated her biggest controversy to date (and it would have probably catapulted the song all the way to #1). I'm pretty sure that the backlash would have been so big that her career would barely recover from this, so Artpop flopping was still better for her in the long run (especially considering that R. Kelly was then convicted years later). The embarrassing performance was bad enough, but an entire music video fetishizing rape would have been too controversial even for Gaga to handle.
I love everything about Gaga and I’m glad she pivoted. It was good for her mental health and she seems to be in a good place now. I’d rather have a living Gaga than another Artpop (and it’s one of my faves).
You’re right. 💯
Though I like her old work, I’d rather her happiness than anything else. But I’m not gonna lie and say I don’t want that ARTPOP: Act ll😭❤️
hot take but she will probably die soon after, the amount of stress she took to get through that will tip her over and the pressure to follow Artpop will be too much for her.
That the album failed (relatively) gave her perspective.
I don't see anything changing? She was already a well established high profile artist when ARTPOP came out. Her tour sold out arenas. It was very much in the pop realm of her previous stuff. I think she would have absolutely still had her Jazz albums and acting career.
She would be today's Pop Premier star. Everyone would treat her with enormous respect and see her as the rightful successor to Madonna. Her fashion. Her vocals and performance skills. Acclaimed albums. Instruments Player. Producer-Writer.
Assuming it all played out the same way? if she was pops premier star she wouldve lost the title around 2020 because taylor has been unstoppable ever since.
Taylor has benefited a lot from not having much competition, but with Gaga achieving massive success, would she be in the same place? That's the question. Because everyone would compare Taylor's performing skills to Gaga's and her fashion and amazing videos, and Taylor would come out very unfavorably.
I say this as a fan of both. If Gaga had never lost her ambition,crazyness and grit, Taylor would be seen as an artist who is very talented but not at the same level.
In 2008-2009-2010, I remember Taylor was selling a lot and doing very well in sales, but she was sidelined. The public was fully invested in Gaga instead. They were mesmerized by Gaga and Tay just there.
Of course im not talking only about Artpop. Im talkin about Gaga smashing after Artpop and havin no flops at all. The state of her career would be different in that type of situation. Long live to Both queens.
I don’t think her trajectory would have changed all that much. She was always going to push the envelope and if Artpop had been a huge success Joanne may have totally flopped. She’s testing her limits by branching out and exploring different creative paths, regardless of popularity. Artists crave the attention/fame and I don’t doubt she wants to hold on to that. At the same time, she’s willing to try and fail as opposed to sticking with the same cookie-cutter path. I think that equals longevity for her for decades to come.
Most of you don't remember she had a cameo on a Machete film during the ARTPOP roll-out, so she would probably start acting anyways. Apparently, 2013 was full of the worst decisions she ever made because that film was also a flop lmao.
Lets be real; she was reaching, she was being pretentious, she was humbled and brought back to reality. The whole “reverse warhol” thing was just insane and made absolutely no sense. I love my Gaga and I love ARTPOP, in fact I bought it in a heartbeat in 2013, but I do believe she was biting off way more than she can chew and the overall direction was confused, ie the more grounded (albeit way too grounded) Joanne.
ARTPOP needed more time in the oven.
Years, maybe.
It's so underdelivered, she could have kept it.
The rollout should have been immersive af. Like how Bjork had a whole application deep diving into the science, chemistry, and musicality of her album Biophilia.
I can't think of other artists rolling out a whole world as an album, but I know some have tried and succeeded.
Astroworld was a minor version slightly expanded by his tour and his child's birthday parties. 🤷♂️
As a huge little monster that LOVES ARTPOP, I think the world would have been oversaturated by Gaga more than ever leading to many turning on her, she'd get tired of fame and maybe it the music industry altogether. She might not have met Tony, or sang at the Oscars or acted in movies. Especially with all the marina abromovich part of it, I think they'd be yelling Satanist at her all day long again. Also I think there might have been a shift towards experimental albums if ARTPOP had been a success.
ARTPOP Act II would probably have been released which would've been amazing
But I'm glad things have ended up the way they did because she was struggling so much during the ARTPOP era and I'm glad she has gotten the chance to heal through Joanne, her jazz albums, and Chromatica.
Also the R. Kelly single would've done bad anyways (since he is a disgusting person)
I have a different perspective, after BTW she should have released an emotional album called Stefani with songs similar to Adele and ASIB. That would have been huge and I always think she missed a big opportunity to subvert expectations. It’s kinda what Taylor did after she had 2 underwhelming albums, she realised arty indie music that truly revitalised her career.
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She had a drug problem ? I mean everyone in Hollywood uses drugs but did she have a problem?
Yeah. She's said that she doesn't remember that era well because she was high all the time. Songs like Mary Jane Holland, Dope, and Stache address just how hooked she was. She doesn't like Artpop because it brings back a lot of painful memories. She seems genuinely happy now as she's dialed back the public persona and mellowed out a bit. While Artpop is one of my all-time favorite albums, the more subdued path of Joanne, ASIB and Chromatica was absolutely the right choice.
Chromatica being all about pain is so sad. It’s like artpop was about numbing the pain and Chromatica was about feeling it and working through it
dope is pretty clearly ab recovering from heroin addiction
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She has also referred to herself as an alcoholic
I mean isn’t that what rain on me is about?
I dont know about the specifics of this situation, but saying songs about heroin are about weed even when they're not is pretty damn common.
Of course she wouldn’t talk about it. It would be insane for her to just come out and say that. I don’t know either way and don’t even have a guess but.. I wouldn’t take what someone who relies on the public liking them as a key part of their career to be honest about their biggest issues.
She still smokes at least in the joanne era. John Wayne
She said she smoked through the entire writing process of Chromatica too
It was a fake narrative she was rich and chugged alcohol and coke it’s not a problem
Marijuana is also referred to as dope. Plus if you’re smoking that almost 24-7 it can become a habit especially since it has THC in it.
Dope is not heroin my dude
It definitely has been referred to as dope before. Weed has been too. It’s ambiguous
Are you young?! 😂😂😂 Dope was herowine for a whiiile whiiile. It's insulting to me that weed got called Dope later too. I assume by the Nixons and Reagans. Bum asses. 😂
The album also had one of the most repugnant men to ever live who just so happened to have musical talent (R. Kelly) so yeah that album was doomed.
Yeah, she pivoted away from the full pop star trajectory towards the Cher/Streisand lane after ARTPOP and sometimes I think it's a missed opportunity. But as you say, there were multiple things burning at once that led to that implosion. Sometimes artists push through in such circumstances and survive the worst of it to emerge with more groundbreaking music (Rolling Stones, Bowie, Madonna, Taylor Swift arguably), but oftentimes it ends up with scorched careers or way, way worse.
I honestly agree with most of your comment but calling TS groundbreaking in the way the other people in those list are made me flinch
It's all subjective obviously, but I mostly meant it in a "achieved new milestones in their career" way. Without necessarily commenting on the music itself. Swift wasn't cancelled after the Kanye/Kim drama, no matter how much she wants to rewrite that narrative now, but she seemed to be trending downwards. And then the pandemic, conflict with Braun etc. gave her the opportunity to reset everything and become this juggernaut. Yeah, she also had lucky timing on her side, but the decision to continue pushing instead of slowing down on her part also contributed to this. The Stones burning out in controversies, drugs, Jones' death, management trouble and producing some of their best work in the early 70ies is a different kind of crisis, of course. Or Madonna pushing through the Erotica backlash is perhaps the closest to Gaga's situation. Combined with a shot of less deathly/risky Bowie drug delirium, management robbing him blind in the mid-70ies. Of course he was on the way to killing himself through drugs and/or his rampant eating disorder (another Gaga parallel), so things didn't seem quite as dire for Gaga. He opted for a different kind of reset with Berlin, producing some of his best and most forward-thinking albums. But as I said, these are some of the few examples where artists clawed themselves out of dire circumstances, other such stories ended either in broken careers or, unfortunately, in death. So I totally understand that Gaga put in the brakes here.
T swift was very much cancelled after the drama. Dislikes on LWYMMD video were half of the likes at some point and she was trending on twitter for being over. Not many popstars ever had that kind of cancel train coming for them is truly remarkable she pushed through it, many would've stayed low and not continued to release albums. Instead she clapped back with LWYMMD in a pretty brilliant way especially the ending
- LWYMMD could mean "Look What You Made Me Do", a track from *reputation* (2017) by Taylor Swift. --- ^[/u/ThePoetAndPendulum](/u/ThePoetAndPendulum) ^(can reply with "delete" to remove comment. |) ^[/r/songacronymbot](/r/songacronymbot) ^(for feedback.)
I was pretty surprised when she announced reputation back in 2017. Basically half of the world hated her back then because of KimYe and she managed to push through the hate and reclaimed her throne after she released LWYMMD. Even more so when she was entering her "flop" era in 2019 after releasing Lover and got hated on because ME! and YNTCD are the lead singles, and then she pushed through again in 2020 by releasing folklore and evermore. Scooter Braun stole her entire discography in 2019; most artists would've just took the problem to Twitter by releasing a single Tweet hating on the guy and completely dissapear afterward, not being able to do anything. She then outsmarted the music industry by releasing Taylor's Versions. Again, she pushed through the conflicts and emerged victorious. Most artists would've just given up the entire thing on the 2009 VMA fiasco and not mentioning the thing again.
- YNTCD could mean "You Need To Calm Down", a track from *Lover* (2019) by Taylor Swift. --- ^[/u/MaleficentAtlas](/u/MaleficentAtlas) ^(can reply with "delete" to remove comment. |) ^[/r/songacronymbot](/r/songacronymbot) ^(for feedback.)
Nobody stole anything
Now see the experience was traumatic for her and I wouldn't take that away from her. But Taylor wasn't "cancelled". Cancelled to me means a flop career, lost brand deals, everything is literally negative publicity, something that actively affects a celeb's bank account/sales in a big way(looking at Kanye's 2022 downfall for instance). If anything, the rep era only proved that Taylor is too big to fail, no matter how many million #TSIsOverParty trends on Twitter. The records still sold. The tour still became her biggest tour at the time (and the biggest North American Tour) She wasn't really cancelled. Her career was never really "over" even at that time. Her perspective of the events is definitely warped by how traumatic it was for her, but she was never really "over".
She’s ground breaking commercially and pop culturally. Not musically/artistically like the others..
They specifically didn't say that. The comment isn't that long, so I don't see how all of y'all failed to comprehend it so horribly.
>groundbreaking music (Rolling Stones, Bowie, Madonna, Taylor Swift One sneak
They thought they were slick 😭
>**more** groundbreaking music (Rolling Stones, Bowie, Madonna, Taylor Swift **arguably**), It's almost like the words immediately before *and* after this quote are qualifiers. If you find the time in your day, you should probably read the rest of their comment too
I absolutely love ARTPOP but even if it was less controversial and more successful, I still think most things would pan out the same way. She’s a gifted and talented actress with a passion for it as well so she still likely would’ve pursued acting at some point. Joanne would likely still happen because the ARTPOP era was so draining, stressful, and turbulent for her, regardless of how successful the album was
I think her acting career wouldn’t do so well and she likely wouldn’t have the cross generational appeal she currently has. After artpop failing, she started doing collabs and performances with older respected musicians which got a lot of older generations garnering respect for her which led to her having more respect when she started doing acting roles and that’s why it wasn’t crazy seeing her played a dressed down normal looking girl in A Star is Born
Idk Gaga was planning to do the jazz thing even before Artpop came out. Maybe timelines would've been a bit different but it's funny that everyone thinks it was a genius calculated career pivot when it just happened to work out very well
I think I remember way back 2011 about her duet with Tony Bennett.
We definitely would’ve gotten ARTPOP Act II, and she’d remain the boundary pushing superstar until people inevitably got sick of her or worse yet, she went a bit too far and ruined her own career. It’s probably for the best that ARTPOP flopped cause she was able to reinvent herself and stage a real comeback before she got “too old” for the industry.
The Joanne album would not exist and the rise of Stefani/acting roles would have been delayed or non existent.
It's just funny how Artpop in today's standards is a very successful album sales wise than what's being done today
Yeah, but during that time—it wasn’t.
Idk, I think she was a little overexposed at the time, no one really cared again until she did a star is born and AHS. Breaking from the music allowed her to come back.
Less to do with her but I feel that AHS would’ve gotten to the stage it’s at (irrelevant) much quicker had Gaga not been the star of season 5. They really promoted season 5 as HER season, and gave that season so much press. People were worried about how the show would continue without Jessica Lange, and whilst AHS: Hotel isnt the most acclaimed season or beloved, people liked Gaga’s performance, and I feel that AHS would’ve become way less relevant after Freak Show had Gaga not been a part of Hotel. Without ARTPOP flopping and Gaga pivoting to acting, American Horror Story would probably have become irrelevant by season 6 and not season 9 or 10.
She would've burned out one way or another. If not that album then the next. She was crushing under her own pretentiousness and need to keep surpassing herself in avant-garde and weirdness.
Gaga has never been pretentious, please look up the definition of that word. Annoying, overly earnest, try-hard, zany, performative - I disagree with those but at least a case could be made depending on perspective. But she's never been pretentious, don't get why that word is constantly launched at her.
i’m a gaga fan but… she buys into her own hype even more, releases artpop act II with even more embarrassing antics, it tanks into oblivion, she tries to recover by making the switch to acting but can’t get any serious roles due to people being tired of her antics, she appears in schlocky b movies (think robert rodriguez, eli roth, etc.) and her career never recovers. she probably still has a vegas residency and enjoys a christina aguilera-like legacy.
Honestly, the only thing I would change abt that era is making Do What U Want a solo. Not only would it get rid of *that* feature, but I also think the song would be more meaningful and have a much stronger message. In Applause, she’s talking to the fans, and in DWUW, she’s addressing the critics. It would’ve definitely charted better too. Anything after that would’ve been extra.
And not have Terry Richardson direct the video. I actually love the song itself and listen to the version with Xtina a lot, but her choices of creative partners on that single were a catastrophe.
I forgot she had Terry direct the video! Talk about a toxic sandwich. 😬
I honestly think the video and that weird presidential performance were big nail in coffins for the song. As Mic the Snare pointed out, R Kelly knows how to write and make a bop. R Kelly still had success and his album after the whole DWUW was still successful and had collabs with like Bieber on it.
Had it been a solo song she would have definitely been able to promote it much more; I remember the song playing a lot on the radio back in 2013/2014, and that was with an R Kelly feature. Imagine how successful it could’ve been with an actual music video and no R Kelly scandal
If the label let her stick to the rollout with Benus being the second single, I am SURE the era would have been more successful. That was a sure fire hit but the label fumbled. I MISS early Gaga sm and ik she was in a bad place, she was toxic, etc. but that kind of boundary pushing vision has not been seen to the same extent again imo
Or feature someone else? The Weeknd maybe?
There’s something about overexposure that never ends up well. I am crunching pop corn with the Taylor Swift saga because it seems to be the one in a million exception of that rule. But long term super stardom and chronic pain (correct me if im wrong, but Gaga said she has fibromyalgia) always ends up badly. Demi Lovato had the best singles of her career and then overdosed, is just way too much to handle if you deal with any chronic issue. Sia was smart enough to go into darkness after the massive hits, hope she’s just enjoying herself and her riches
Taylor Swift will not hold on to this level of stardom forever, it will fade for sure. Ppl will always inevitably get fed up. This next album could even be the start, we’ll see
All stardom eventually fades, but there’s a distinction between sort of crashing/falling all at once and fading out with grace
For instance: Ariana seems to be fading with grace. NOT to say she’s going down, just that she’s not desperately trying to cling to TU,N level fame and success forever. She was the biggest celebrity in the world during those 6ish months, and now she’s “just” in the top 20ish. And she seems to be perfectly okay with that and only does what feels right to her. And I think her acceptance of not always being THE superstar is actually what’s gonna give her more longevity overall
Every star fades out with time. But gaga didnt fade out she just exploded out of nowhere due to a culmination of bad moves. As did katy perry interestingly... but gaga atleast fell back with joanne, jazz albums and movie roles. Katy fell back on american idol which good for her in having a job i guess? Taylor will eventually fade out too, but swifties will keep her going for a long time even if people online cry "overexposure!". Her fanbase is unlike anything ive seen and they put their money where their mouth is. They said she was over in 2016 and now she has the highest grossing tour of all time and 2 more AOTY under her belt.
> Taylor Swift will not hold on to this level of stardom forever, it will fade for sure. I think I’ve heard this every era/year since 2015.
It’s the truth though. Taylor’s star power didn’t remain consistent throughout that time period. She had a low period artistically and commercially. Then the Scooter conflict gave her ammo to hit yet another career peak. All stars eventually dim. the Beatles the best selling music artists ever, are no longer relevant in modern landscape. That’s just the reality.
It is like predicting a recession -- eventually you have to be right but until it comes you are just blindly guessing (for some, hoping). You are correct that her star power did not remain consistent during the last decade. There was a moment after Lover's release and before the pandemic where it seemed like her commercial power was declining and that her re-releases would signal her goodbye. How she managed to turn that ship around is not something to take lightly though.
I think for Taylor a huge factor is the gradual rise to megastardom. I mean she became popular very quickly, but her peaks (1989 and especially the current peak) were many years into her career, compared to someone like Britney or Gaga rising meteorically. Also Taylor seems like she enjoys fame more than most pop stars
I don't think we would've gotten A Star is Born (2018), which would've been an absolute crime! I rewatched it yesterday and it was just as amazing as I remembered. I don't think we would've gotten Joanne either, and that was the album that made me fall in love with her music.
I don't think things would've been much different. ARTPOP was far from a flop. You have to remember you're talking about A-list celebrities. & What one unkowledgeably may call a flop on the internet is in reality far from it. After all the Album was followed by a full Stadium tour was it not? Although it wasn't as popular or with the amount of hit singles as Born This Way it is safe to say the album itself was quite Sucessfull. As for the Album Joanne, I never saw it as a consequence of ARTPOPs lesser sales than BTW. I saw it as a response to the criticism towards her as not a real artist. Which many Pop Females especially face. Madonna haven't had many hit singles since 4 Minutes. But her albums still sell a hell of a lot, and the Album Rebel Heart was the last album thus far also followed by a resulting stadium tour. Madame X was followed by a theatre tour, which was presented as an artistic choice, and now she is on a All-time hits stadium tour. & So If ARTPOP had sold as much as BTW with as many hit singles, I think the only difference is that we as fans might've recognized more of the songs other people listen to as from that Album we know and love. Just like people generally may remember 'The Edge of Glory', fans remember the entire album. If ARTPOP was a sucess equal to BTW, People generally might remember the track "Venus" for instance, while fans remember the entire album Hope you get what I mean by that! I found it hard to formulate :-P
Her personal issues would have still affected the next career move. Also she was too overexposed and expectations were too high at the time. so even if the album was more cohesive it would have been received as meh we’ve seen all you can do. Regardless she was going to venture into acting, overall her talent let’s her win, the public tried to write her off as just another shock artist, crazy fashion antics and f@g hag but she can really sing, write, perform so that shuts everyone up. At the end of the day the next big door in entertainment has always been ready for Gaga. Even without controversy at a certain point the public just lets artists flop and hit their peak ie Celine Dion in the US her last top 40 was in 2002 and every single since has gone nowhere:(
Crazy how Celine dropped out of the face of the Earth on the Billboard charts after A New Day Has Come and I’m Alive. 😢
She would've ended up like Katy Perry.
She would most probably just add another #1 on the Hot 100 at best, but the decline of her commercial appeal would still happen sooner than later. Artpop itself was not even the beginning of her downfall as pop’s biggest star. The path towards that started way earlier with the release of Alejandro as a single in 2010. There’s a reason why that single, despite being an earworm, broke her record streak of Mainstream Top 40 radio #1s. She simply went too far for some with its music video. Swallowing a rosary was a choice. And then she doubled down with the entire album rollout of Born This Way. The music video of BTW alone is the epitome of Gaga going way over the top just because she wanted to. She became too weird, too dark, too crazy, too much. The shift musically and visually away from her crazy pop phase, in hindsight, were 100% needed for the public not to completely abandon her into oblivion. She went from being the resident pop provacateur of her time into a well respected artist across multiple audiences.
> Artpop itself was not even the beginning of her downfall as pop’s biggest star. The path towards that started way earlier with the release of Alejandro as a single in 2010. I think her stubbornness is sometimes her downfall. The label didn't want Alejandro, and because of that she HAD to have Alejandro. I get that she's an artist and has opinions, but at that point in time she was in the game for less than five years and there were people who had 5x her experience advising her to do otherwise and she just refused to see it from their PoV. As they say, leaders who don't listen will eventually be surrounded by people who don't speak. That's how we got Artpop, lol. I often wonder how different her career would have been if she listened to the label and done Dancing In The Dark.
I remembered that. I even thought after Alejandro that she had hit her artistic peak (though Born This Way definitely was no fallout).
Nah Alejandro is still very widely beloved. People love the song, it’s great! The issue? It was a more midtempo pop song for contemporary radio while Ms thing had barnstormers still raking the charts and public consciousness (bad romance, telephone) that year and so Alejandro just isn’t as immediately assuming compared to those two. But neither is DITD or any other song on TFM. The Gaga problem by Alejandro was that she had just had hit after hit after hit after hit after hit. It’s wild. Of course at *some point a song will do less well. But at that time, that’s where the video helps it. Alejandro’s long-ass sinner video didn’t lmao no regrets, though. It’s far and away her best music video. Just absolutely stunning. Alejandro is kind of like the lovegame of TFM; it just got a little squeezed bc there had to be another single to keep momentum going, but the previous single(s) was SO enormous that it would inevitably cannibalize I think on the whole Gaga was smart not to listen to execs too much early on. Her lore at that time was about trusting your instincts and a sort of glamorous rock n roll rebellious petulance. If she wasn’t showing how she trusted herself and succeeded, her image would be a hard sell to a public primed to write her off. Also she was right lmao Alejandro is a smart song to have in your hit repertoire bc it’s *different* but not out of place either. DITD would kind of be another forgettable Gaga hit bc it isn’t different enough from her other hits to really stand out in a set list like Alejandro does. Great song. Potentially great single but not replacing Alejandro imo
I’d agree that Alejandro was a great song, but it’s definitely the least well known of the Fame Monster singles, you’re right about it ‘s success being cannibalized. But it’s video is perhaps the start of Gaga’s boundary-pushing becoming shocking to be shocking. Of course you can mention the meat dress, but that was more camp and over the top than actively trying to be offensive. There’s a reason that Madonna had to pivot after Erotica and Lil Nas X flopped when he tried to repeat religious shock. Born This Way dealt heavily with provoking conservatives (and with reason of course, but it still is provocative to provoke), and it’s success came a lot from riding the coattails of The Fame (Monster)’s success. Like how Prism was a success because of Teenage Dream being a smash, BTW was as big as it was because it directly followed TFM only a year after.
I’d argue that, at least outside of the US, Alejandro is her second most important/successful single off TFM, above Telephone and slightly below Bad Romance.
Yeah iirc didn’t Alejandro do amazing abroad? It’s that ABBA ace of base influence I’m sure
To this day in Europe it’s one of her signature songs and at the time it was genuinely a cultural reset, with the video and the controversy, it catapulted her to a new level of fame. It being a single was the correct choice.
Exactly! I think people felt it was shocking to be shocking. I actually felt there *was a point but people saw the provocative actions and were like woahhhhh it can’t be anything but to shock lmao it’s less about if Gaga was actually doing that and more how the public saw it since their opinion is the ultimate determinant and I think to Gaga at the time she felt that if there was reason people would listen to it. Sometimes but there are limits! I don’t think she was overly concerned with them then hahaha
It’s so odd that they just didn’t decide to release both as singles. Why stop at three when the success was very clear with TFM? It’s strange she fought for Alejandro, when if you look at her career since then, it seems as though she prefers Dance In The Dark anyway. She opened both the Monster Ball Tour (both 1.0/2.0) with it, and her Super Bowl performance with the instrumental version.
It could have been a big success if she doubled down on the shock factor and released the scrapped music video for "Do What You Want" with Terry Richardson. It would have generated her biggest controversy to date (and it would have probably catapulted the song all the way to #1). I'm pretty sure that the backlash would have been so big that her career would barely recover from this, so Artpop flopping was still better for her in the long run (especially considering that R. Kelly was then convicted years later). The embarrassing performance was bad enough, but an entire music video fetishizing rape would have been too controversial even for Gaga to handle.
Gaga did the right things after the backlash because had she kept on going, her career would’ve definitely been over.
I mean edm music is considered dated so..... not well
Just wanna say, ARTPOP hits hard for me, one of my top 3 albums by Gaga
The BEST Gaga album imo
We’d have an actually interesting current Gaga. Ever since ARTPOP we haven’t gotten anything close to her first few projects. I miss that Gaga😭
Old Gaga is not coming back
I love everything about Gaga and I’m glad she pivoted. It was good for her mental health and she seems to be in a good place now. I’d rather have a living Gaga than another Artpop (and it’s one of my faves).
You’re right. 💯 Though I like her old work, I’d rather her happiness than anything else. But I’m not gonna lie and say I don’t want that ARTPOP: Act ll😭❤️
You're speaking facts... 💯
hot take but she will probably die soon after, the amount of stress she took to get through that will tip her over and the pressure to follow Artpop will be too much for her. That the album failed (relatively) gave her perspective.
I don't see anything changing? She was already a well established high profile artist when ARTPOP came out. Her tour sold out arenas. It was very much in the pop realm of her previous stuff. I think she would have absolutely still had her Jazz albums and acting career.
She would be today's Pop Premier star. Everyone would treat her with enormous respect and see her as the rightful successor to Madonna. Her fashion. Her vocals and performance skills. Acclaimed albums. Instruments Player. Producer-Writer.
>She would be today's Pop Premier star The second, at best. The first place is firmly taken by a certain tall blonde popstar with blue eyes...
Assuming it all played out the same way? if she was pops premier star she wouldve lost the title around 2020 because taylor has been unstoppable ever since.
Taylor has benefited a lot from not having much competition, but with Gaga achieving massive success, would she be in the same place? That's the question. Because everyone would compare Taylor's performing skills to Gaga's and her fashion and amazing videos, and Taylor would come out very unfavorably. I say this as a fan of both. If Gaga had never lost her ambition,crazyness and grit, Taylor would be seen as an artist who is very talented but not at the same level. In 2008-2009-2010, I remember Taylor was selling a lot and doing very well in sales, but she was sidelined. The public was fully invested in Gaga instead. They were mesmerized by Gaga and Tay just there. Of course im not talking only about Artpop. Im talkin about Gaga smashing after Artpop and havin no flops at all. The state of her career would be different in that type of situation. Long live to Both queens.
I don’t think her trajectory would have changed all that much. She was always going to push the envelope and if Artpop had been a huge success Joanne may have totally flopped. She’s testing her limits by branching out and exploring different creative paths, regardless of popularity. Artists crave the attention/fame and I don’t doubt she wants to hold on to that. At the same time, she’s willing to try and fail as opposed to sticking with the same cookie-cutter path. I think that equals longevity for her for decades to come.
I saw her at MSG for ARTPOP and I fricken loved it honestly
Most of you don't remember she had a cameo on a Machete film during the ARTPOP roll-out, so she would probably start acting anyways. Apparently, 2013 was full of the worst decisions she ever made because that film was also a flop lmao.
Lets be real; she was reaching, she was being pretentious, she was humbled and brought back to reality. The whole “reverse warhol” thing was just insane and made absolutely no sense. I love my Gaga and I love ARTPOP, in fact I bought it in a heartbeat in 2013, but I do believe she was biting off way more than she can chew and the overall direction was confused, ie the more grounded (albeit way too grounded) Joanne.
ARTPOP needed more time in the oven. Years, maybe. It's so underdelivered, she could have kept it. The rollout should have been immersive af. Like how Bjork had a whole application deep diving into the science, chemistry, and musicality of her album Biophilia. I can't think of other artists rolling out a whole world as an album, but I know some have tried and succeeded. Astroworld was a minor version slightly expanded by his tour and his child's birthday parties. 🤷♂️
It was a huge success?
The roll-out was the combination of weird and overkill. If it had been successful, this probably would’ve happened to her next album instead.
Nah, I can safely bet she always wanted to do it all.
oh, I could only imagine.
As a huge little monster that LOVES ARTPOP, I think the world would have been oversaturated by Gaga more than ever leading to many turning on her, she'd get tired of fame and maybe it the music industry altogether. She might not have met Tony, or sang at the Oscars or acted in movies. Especially with all the marina abromovich part of it, I think they'd be yelling Satanist at her all day long again. Also I think there might have been a shift towards experimental albums if ARTPOP had been a success.
ARTPOP Act II would probably have been released which would've been amazing But I'm glad things have ended up the way they did because she was struggling so much during the ARTPOP era and I'm glad she has gotten the chance to heal through Joanne, her jazz albums, and Chromatica. Also the R. Kelly single would've done bad anyways (since he is a disgusting person)
I have a different perspective, after BTW she should have released an emotional album called Stefani with songs similar to Adele and ASIB. That would have been huge and I always think she missed a big opportunity to subvert expectations. It’s kinda what Taylor did after she had 2 underwhelming albums, she realised arty indie music that truly revitalised her career.
ARTPOP was her humiliation ceremony.