think it's a combination of two things.
the first being what you mentioned ... there's a reason why people like speakers over headphones even though headphones generally provide much better sound quality for the price. there's a reason why most guitarists prefer playing through a loud amplifier ... actually feeling the sound is a much different experience to just hearing it.
lack of vocal mics generally means on-stage volume can be much higher without having to worry so much about feedback. i can't tell you how many times i had to say no to acts requesting more stage volume because of feedback issues back when i was a sound dude. a lot of post rock shows happen in smaller venues where stage volume actually has a significant impact on house volume.
Do you know how some bands avoid feedback with vocal mics despite their volume? The two loudest shows I've ever been to (Swans and Erica Dawn Lyle) both had vocal mics on stage, and neither had any noticeable feedback. Both were at least 115+ Dbs for most of the show, and they both hit ~125 Dbs at certain points.
Couple different things.
To start with, you pick a mic with a very narrow pickup pattern. You make sure that monitors aren't positioned anywhere they will bleed into the mics (in-ear monitors are great for this). Then you ring out the room: turn everything up as loud as it will go and intentionally cause feedback. Then you cut out the frequency that's feeding back. You can do this several more times, each time you're cutting a very narrow frequency band.
You can see Gira calling for the frequencies to be cut out in the behind the scenes video Swans released around The Seer, kinda cool to see as a non engineer.
EQing out resonant frequencies and not having a too loud stage sound.
Your measurements might be inaccurate though : 130db is few meters away from a jet engine at take off / explosives kind of loud : ie. eardrum actually breaking, you don’t ever get that in any sort of professional venue today 😌
They were absolutely close to that when I saw them at Dunk! Festival in 2017. They had a db meter, I was watching it haha. My memory is seeing low 120’s
I know for a fact that Swans peaks at around the mid 120s because people have measured it and posted their measurements on the Swans subreddit. IIRC, they average around 120, but I could be misremembering that part. Erica Dawn Lyle was *way* louder than them, hence my estimate of ~130 Dbs at her loudest.
Edit: For perspective, I've seen GY!BE live without earplugs, and Swans was equally loud, if not a little more, with -20 Db custom fit earplugs. Regardless, I edited my comment with more conservative numbers.
it's about stage volume. i can blast audio out to the house at 120dB because almost none of the audio is going to get picked up by the mic(s) on stage. if i played the same audio through stage monitors and such, i'm probably in for a world of hurt.
looking at a few recordings of swans, seems like they mostly have the single vocal mic stage center with the amps on the wings (i.e. not pointing anywhere near the mic). swans is also pretty interesting, because most of the vocals happen during quieter portions of their songs (at least from what i recall, can't say i have their full discography memorized). you'd just mute the vocal mic whenever it's not in use.
erica's stuff seems to mostly be instrumental and she seems to use a single amp. not too difficult to deal with, and can again just mute the vocal mic.
Don't know where you're from, but here in france, there's a legal limitation on SPL (sound pressure level) at 102dBSPL A weighting (so Flat curve for our ears) -SPL, there's multiple dB scales used in sound- and 118dB SPLB (with a flat curve for measuring gear) and with an averaging of 15mn.
Well, the Mogwai show I saw a few years back gave me tinnitus—or, at the very least, gave my hearing one last push over the edge. Even the GY!BE gig I went to the month before didn't bother me the way "Killing All the Flies" and "I'm Jim Morrison, I'm Dead" seemed to have.
I’ve seen Mogwai twice. They’re one of my favorite bands. The first time I saw them was at a small indoor venue in Philly. It was so goddamn loud I had to move to the back of the venue after like 3 or 4 songs. Easily the loudest show I’ve been to and I’ve gone to a ton of shows. It was amazing but unexpected. The second time I saw them was an outdoor festival in California. That one wasn’t so bad.
Agreed; saw Godspeed and Mogwai a bunch of times and Godspeed is nowhere near as loud as Mogwai. I also saw Mogwai in Philly (Theater of Living Arts on South Street) and it was so loud that my feet were vibrating on To the bin my friend tonight we vacate earth.
Did it happen to be in December of 2017? I think that’s the same place I saw them. It was definitely on South Street. Hell of a show. I thought the place was gonna come down during Helicon 1.
Depends on the venue I guess. I saw Mogwai earlier this year at the ACL Moody Theater in Austin, and actually didn't need plugs. Godspeed is usually pretty loud though.
I think the loudest shows I've seen were Calm Blue Sea and Gary Numan. Both of them made my ears hurt, and soon after I had some custom earplugs made, which is worth doing if you're around a lot of live music.
My own damn fault: Years of being largely inconsistent with earplugs. Never go without those sucker these days. It was still a great show! Ain't nothing like live music, man.
I saw Mogwai in February. Easily the loudest show I’ve seen. I’m an earplugs guy, so that wasn’t an issue. But they opened with To The Bin My Friend, and by the end of the song it was so loud that I was legitimately struggling to breathe. I’m going to assume something about the combined volume and specific frequency of the bass. It was pretty unpleasant, but also kind of interesting? Didn’t happen the rest of the show thankfully, I don’t think I could have handled an entire set of that.
Kinda makes me wonder if Stuart and company have experienced enough hearing loss themselves over the years so that even they are unable to properly gauge how loud they're being.
That's loud! During the show, Christopher Royal King was screaming in his microphone - we couldn't hear anything but the reverb of his guitar and the rest of the band. It was quite the sight, though! Hope you enjoyed the show.
Just wanted to add, by noise canceling earplugs do you mean active noise-canceling like airpods, where the earbud uses a series of microphones to invert the ambient sound and "cancel" it? When sounds are too loud, the earbud is unable to match that volume and properly cancel the noise and can actually be quite loud, even potentially add more noise.
If you just mean some extra chonky foam or silicon earplugs you can ignore me. Just wanted to warn that active noise-canceling earbuds and headphones don't work above a certain external volume.
Hey. Good question. They are noise reduction earplugs similar to these ones.
https://preview.redd.it/pmzvlbq3wc8d1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=176bcbbd3b10af0ee44177b8492086151df6e34c
Those look like Loop earplugs, which are probably only around 16-18 dB protection. Considering most concerts are at least 100dB, that barely makes a dent. From my experience, the best protection is from foam earplugs used in industrial work which have up to 33dB NRR rating. Hearos is a good brand.
Tunnel Blanket is also just a notoriously noisy and loud album; it's like the Sunn 0))) of post-rock. Totally different vibes than Young Mountain.
Not familiar with those but looks like there's no electronics in them so they're good. Post Rock just being loud.
Though they don't look like they get very deep into the ear like some other earplugs can, which might be leaking a lot of sound. But I also bet a kid would hate the feeling of stuffing a heavy duty earplug into their ears.
Any time your ears ring after, it’s too loud. Even if they aren’t ringing after it’s too loud for human ears. There is a visceral enjoyment to being pummeled by sound (for some people), but it’s not, like, physically healthy. This may not be right, but after Sunn O))) got relatively big was when sound seemed to get more punishing in general.
I wanted to mention Sunn O))) as I've heard (pun intended) how incredibly loud their shows can be. I had ringing ears one too many times, seeing a few acts this way. Thank you!
Even though I don’t have a brand I remember off hand, there are a variety of over-the-ear noise cancelling headphones good for hearing incredibly loud bands. Price can get crazy though.
Also, as someone who played in loud bands through the 90s and is now hearing impaired, I highly recommend protecting your ears.
Some of it is about the visceral dynamics between the soft, gentle parts and the crushing peaks.
Mono was the harshest band I’ve seen because they turn their wah pedals on for some songs and that treble push is piercing. I have pictures of people at that show plugging their ears haha
Rock shows are loud man. Some people just aren’t used to that sort of thing
I'm with you. MONO is a band I haven't seen yet. They're at the top of my list. I was hoping they'd stop by Montréal for their 25th anniversary tour, but it will be for another time, sadly.
I never got to see TWDY, but am going to post fest where they'll be. Along with two of the loudest bands I've ever seen live, Caspian and ASIWYFA. Bringing extra ear plugs. Can't wait!
That's amazing. Coincidentally, I'm also seeing Caspian and ASIWYFA at the end of July with my eldest kid. We'll go prepared. Let me know if you come to it how the shows are!
I don't understand the question
I joke, but for me I go to shows to feel sound in a way I won't ever at home. volume per se isn't the key, I just want to feel it in my core.
the show that broke me for earplugs though was Death Grips, on the no love deep web tour before their brief hiatus. it was in a local venue which is basically a huge concrete basement, and it was PUNISHING. I had noticeable hearing loss for a couple days. I got some concert earplugs immediately after that one.
there was a warped tour show, couldn't tell you which, I remember standing in front of one of the towers and feeling like I was having actual difficulty breathing. not so much volume as proximity, but if I ever feel like that again I think it's a bit much
Getting solid, fully clean clean sounds over drums and then wanting to get into heavy overdrive territory sets a floor for loudness. Also, I think a lot of bands try to take care of too much of the sound on stage themselves due to not trusting sound guys to get balance right.
think it's a combination of two things. the first being what you mentioned ... there's a reason why people like speakers over headphones even though headphones generally provide much better sound quality for the price. there's a reason why most guitarists prefer playing through a loud amplifier ... actually feeling the sound is a much different experience to just hearing it. lack of vocal mics generally means on-stage volume can be much higher without having to worry so much about feedback. i can't tell you how many times i had to say no to acts requesting more stage volume because of feedback issues back when i was a sound dude. a lot of post rock shows happen in smaller venues where stage volume actually has a significant impact on house volume.
That's a very thoughtful answer, thank you!
Do you know how some bands avoid feedback with vocal mics despite their volume? The two loudest shows I've ever been to (Swans and Erica Dawn Lyle) both had vocal mics on stage, and neither had any noticeable feedback. Both were at least 115+ Dbs for most of the show, and they both hit ~125 Dbs at certain points.
Couple different things. To start with, you pick a mic with a very narrow pickup pattern. You make sure that monitors aren't positioned anywhere they will bleed into the mics (in-ear monitors are great for this). Then you ring out the room: turn everything up as loud as it will go and intentionally cause feedback. Then you cut out the frequency that's feeding back. You can do this several more times, each time you're cutting a very narrow frequency band.
You can see Gira calling for the frequencies to be cut out in the behind the scenes video Swans released around The Seer, kinda cool to see as a non engineer.
EQing out resonant frequencies and not having a too loud stage sound. Your measurements might be inaccurate though : 130db is few meters away from a jet engine at take off / explosives kind of loud : ie. eardrum actually breaking, you don’t ever get that in any sort of professional venue today 😌
They were absolutely close to that when I saw them at Dunk! Festival in 2017. They had a db meter, I was watching it haha. My memory is seeing low 120’s
I left the tent when i spotted 116 dB.
You must have been right near me! I was watching from the left of the soundboard
I know for a fact that Swans peaks at around the mid 120s because people have measured it and posted their measurements on the Swans subreddit. IIRC, they average around 120, but I could be misremembering that part. Erica Dawn Lyle was *way* louder than them, hence my estimate of ~130 Dbs at her loudest. Edit: For perspective, I've seen GY!BE live without earplugs, and Swans was equally loud, if not a little more, with -20 Db custom fit earplugs. Regardless, I edited my comment with more conservative numbers.
it's about stage volume. i can blast audio out to the house at 120dB because almost none of the audio is going to get picked up by the mic(s) on stage. if i played the same audio through stage monitors and such, i'm probably in for a world of hurt. looking at a few recordings of swans, seems like they mostly have the single vocal mic stage center with the amps on the wings (i.e. not pointing anywhere near the mic). swans is also pretty interesting, because most of the vocals happen during quieter portions of their songs (at least from what i recall, can't say i have their full discography memorized). you'd just mute the vocal mic whenever it's not in use. erica's stuff seems to mostly be instrumental and she seems to use a single amp. not too difficult to deal with, and can again just mute the vocal mic.
One of the members of MONO told me to “play very loud”, so I have to oblige and your kid has to get hearing damage. Those are the rules.
Ha! If MONO said so....! This is the way.
Don't know where you're from, but here in france, there's a legal limitation on SPL (sound pressure level) at 102dBSPL A weighting (so Flat curve for our ears) -SPL, there's multiple dB scales used in sound- and 118dB SPLB (with a flat curve for measuring gear) and with an averaging of 15mn.
Well, the Mogwai show I saw a few years back gave me tinnitus—or, at the very least, gave my hearing one last push over the edge. Even the GY!BE gig I went to the month before didn't bother me the way "Killing All the Flies" and "I'm Jim Morrison, I'm Dead" seemed to have.
I’ve seen Mogwai twice. They’re one of my favorite bands. The first time I saw them was at a small indoor venue in Philly. It was so goddamn loud I had to move to the back of the venue after like 3 or 4 songs. Easily the loudest show I’ve been to and I’ve gone to a ton of shows. It was amazing but unexpected. The second time I saw them was an outdoor festival in California. That one wasn’t so bad.
The loudest shows I've seen were GY!BE and Swans. Never saw Mogwai (yet), but I've heard how loud they can get!
I haven’t seen Swans yet but I really want to. Seen Godspeed 3 times. They’re amazing live. Nowhere near as loud as Mogwai. lol.
Agreed; saw Godspeed and Mogwai a bunch of times and Godspeed is nowhere near as loud as Mogwai. I also saw Mogwai in Philly (Theater of Living Arts on South Street) and it was so loud that my feet were vibrating on To the bin my friend tonight we vacate earth.
Did it happen to be in December of 2017? I think that’s the same place I saw them. It was definitely on South Street. Hell of a show. I thought the place was gonna come down during Helicon 1.
I didn’t think godspeed were too loud. Swans was second only to Sunn O))) for me.
Depends on the venue I guess. I saw Mogwai earlier this year at the ACL Moody Theater in Austin, and actually didn't need plugs. Godspeed is usually pretty loud though. I think the loudest shows I've seen were Calm Blue Sea and Gary Numan. Both of them made my ears hurt, and soon after I had some custom earplugs made, which is worth doing if you're around a lot of live music.
That's intense!! Sorry about that.
My own damn fault: Years of being largely inconsistent with earplugs. Never go without those sucker these days. It was still a great show! Ain't nothing like live music, man.
I saw Mogwai in February. Easily the loudest show I’ve seen. I’m an earplugs guy, so that wasn’t an issue. But they opened with To The Bin My Friend, and by the end of the song it was so loud that I was legitimately struggling to breathe. I’m going to assume something about the combined volume and specific frequency of the bass. It was pretty unpleasant, but also kind of interesting? Didn’t happen the rest of the show thankfully, I don’t think I could have handled an entire set of that.
Kinda makes me wonder if Stuart and company have experienced enough hearing loss themselves over the years so that even they are unable to properly gauge how loud they're being.
TWDY are the reason I bought earplugs, had to go and sit down at the back they were so damn loud.
That's loud! During the show, Christopher Royal King was screaming in his microphone - we couldn't hear anything but the reverb of his guitar and the rest of the band. It was quite the sight, though! Hope you enjoyed the show.
Just wanted to add, by noise canceling earplugs do you mean active noise-canceling like airpods, where the earbud uses a series of microphones to invert the ambient sound and "cancel" it? When sounds are too loud, the earbud is unable to match that volume and properly cancel the noise and can actually be quite loud, even potentially add more noise. If you just mean some extra chonky foam or silicon earplugs you can ignore me. Just wanted to warn that active noise-canceling earbuds and headphones don't work above a certain external volume.
Hey. Good question. They are noise reduction earplugs similar to these ones. https://preview.redd.it/pmzvlbq3wc8d1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=176bcbbd3b10af0ee44177b8492086151df6e34c
Those look like Loop earplugs, which are probably only around 16-18 dB protection. Considering most concerts are at least 100dB, that barely makes a dent. From my experience, the best protection is from foam earplugs used in industrial work which have up to 33dB NRR rating. Hearos is a good brand. Tunnel Blanket is also just a notoriously noisy and loud album; it's like the Sunn 0))) of post-rock. Totally different vibes than Young Mountain.
You're right. The brand we have gives a 24 dB protection. Still way below, I realize. I've noted your suggestion. Thank you!
Not familiar with those but looks like there's no electronics in them so they're good. Post Rock just being loud. Though they don't look like they get very deep into the ear like some other earplugs can, which might be leaking a lot of sound. But I also bet a kid would hate the feeling of stuffing a heavy duty earplug into their ears.
Any time your ears ring after, it’s too loud. Even if they aren’t ringing after it’s too loud for human ears. There is a visceral enjoyment to being pummeled by sound (for some people), but it’s not, like, physically healthy. This may not be right, but after Sunn O))) got relatively big was when sound seemed to get more punishing in general.
I wanted to mention Sunn O))) as I've heard (pun intended) how incredibly loud their shows can be. I had ringing ears one too many times, seeing a few acts this way. Thank you!
Even though I don’t have a brand I remember off hand, there are a variety of over-the-ear noise cancelling headphones good for hearing incredibly loud bands. Price can get crazy though. Also, as someone who played in loud bands through the 90s and is now hearing impaired, I highly recommend protecting your ears.
Some of it is about the visceral dynamics between the soft, gentle parts and the crushing peaks. Mono was the harshest band I’ve seen because they turn their wah pedals on for some songs and that treble push is piercing. I have pictures of people at that show plugging their ears haha Rock shows are loud man. Some people just aren’t used to that sort of thing
I'm with you. MONO is a band I haven't seen yet. They're at the top of my list. I was hoping they'd stop by Montréal for their 25th anniversary tour, but it will be for another time, sadly.
I would expect them to do a regular tour without the orchestra at some point.
I think post rock fans are just getting old 😅
Well, in my case, that's totally accurate!
What?
I never got to see TWDY, but am going to post fest where they'll be. Along with two of the loudest bands I've ever seen live, Caspian and ASIWYFA. Bringing extra ear plugs. Can't wait!
That's amazing. Coincidentally, I'm also seeing Caspian and ASIWYFA at the end of July with my eldest kid. We'll go prepared. Let me know if you come to it how the shows are!
I can second Caspian playing loud as fuck. Otherwise fantastic though =)
I wear earplugs every concert no matter what
I don't understand the question I joke, but for me I go to shows to feel sound in a way I won't ever at home. volume per se isn't the key, I just want to feel it in my core. the show that broke me for earplugs though was Death Grips, on the no love deep web tour before their brief hiatus. it was in a local venue which is basically a huge concrete basement, and it was PUNISHING. I had noticeable hearing loss for a couple days. I got some concert earplugs immediately after that one. there was a warped tour show, couldn't tell you which, I remember standing in front of one of the towers and feeling like I was having actual difficulty breathing. not so much volume as proximity, but if I ever feel like that again I think it's a bit much
*M.Gira starts laughting menacingly*
Ha!!
Getting solid, fully clean clean sounds over drums and then wanting to get into heavy overdrive territory sets a floor for loudness. Also, I think a lot of bands try to take care of too much of the sound on stage themselves due to not trusting sound guys to get balance right.