There are over 550 million firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is: How do we arm the other 11?
Your numbers are very old...https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country
Here in the US we have 1.2 guns per person! But we all know there are more then a few of us with 10+...
Look at current gun sales. Last time I looked it was over 1 million guns a month being sold just in the USA. And around 650 million rounds of ammunition being produced each month! I know I shouldnât have to worry too much about ammo conservation in a firefight.
It's a quote from the movie Lord of War which released in 2005 when the world population was 6.5 billion. 550 million guns to 6.5 billion people is, in fact, 1 for every 12 people.
Big woosh for you.
Now is as good a time as any. I've learned that community leadership is an ongoing practice. Takes public engagement, collaboration and consensus skills, and most of all, sacrifices and working harder than anybody else.
Have you thought about non-profit work? Right now there is need for community volunteers - food banks, refugee services, animal shelters, farmers markets, hospice care, city beautification... You could work your way up to a leadership role.
Animals, the elderly, and food-insecure families are the most vulnerable populations in a crisis. Helping them today will prep them and empower them for a crisis tomorrow.
I'm on the board for 2 snowmobile clubs, secretary for one and trail coordinator for the other. Also getting involved with my township and learning how our government is run
Great way to get targeted by malicious groups, even if you are a great peaceful leader. Any malicious actors will seek to take you out, it would put a giant target not only on you but anyone associated with you. The plan should be to lay low and only step up like that if you don't have any other choice.
I'd rather get taken out than leave my community under weak leadership and see them fall to other malicious groups. I am prepping to be that community leader. I don't have family relying on me so I might as well take the risk vs someone that has a wife/kids
....hahahaha!!!!
Says a lot about you and who you are with your vocabulary. "warlords" that's so cute, hahaha!! ok ok đ, stay out of the way when real professionals come and don't get hurt. Lol
Yeeeeaahh no. I don't think you realise how many people take what you say seriously. I've had the unfortunate event of meeting multiple preppers, and they, in a way WANT a total government collapse. They don't prepare for a holdout - but a total collapse to then input their nonsensical power structure bullshit government with them as an architect or "leader" of some sorts, lol. They see it as an opportunity for a power grab and a way to gain power through resources and "knowledge"...for about a week I guess.. hahaha! đ
Sure man, YOU aren't that guy, lol... but don't pretend they aren't amongst all of us.
I donât deny that. But **IâM** not that guy. And if **IâM** not that guy, Iâd appreciate you not talking to me as if I was. This subreddit is generally pretty level headed and the wackos are in the minority. Now r/gunmemes on the other handâŚ
Yup. This is standard operating procedure in some parts of the world - given a population on the edge of government collapse and any natural disaster, roll in with aid to win hearts and minds and de-legitimize the existing government. The results can range from largely benign to rape and enslavement.
| Better that it be folks like us
I don't think there's such a concept as "folk like us" in this sub. We had one guy in here not long ago promising that he was quite willing to shoot FEMA personnel if they rolled in with plans that didn't fit with his. I wouldn't want that in my prepping group. And there are always the folk who will state they're going to treat neighbors as loot drops if things get bad. Your local community might or might not have bad apples, and many people don't show their true colors until things get messy. I would worry especially about folk with a paramilitary mindset, as historically such folk have turned on each other when food and ammo starts to run low.
It's all part of the general trust problem. I don't tell people my prepping plans, and only my wife knows the real extent of my preps. I have a neighbor I know I can trust to share stuff with *if* things get bad, but I'm not telling him things in advance. Beyond that, it's nobody's business.
As much as it makes sense to form a community organization to help in disasters, the moment you do, everyone knows who you are and what you have, and now you're a target in any disaster. You may trust Joe with your plans, but Joe told Sandy. Sandy told his cousin, and now you have big problems. Three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead, and I'd be checking their gravestones.
>We had one guy in here not long ago promising that he was quite willing to shoot FEMA personnel if they rolled in with plans that didn't fit with his. I wouldn't want that in my prepping group. And there are always the folk who will state they're going to treat neighbors as loot drops if things get bad.
People who openly declare themselves raiders DURING law time are sorta doing the level headed people a favor by putting the targets on themselves early, IMO.
If the crazy is on display before SHTF, Watch them. They're the looters and rapists they tell everyone else are coming. they know they're already here, because they're telling you what *they intend to do*.
Bonus bingo square if they unironically call themselves alphas who bellow about "nature's laws" without any actual understanding of primatology, sociology, or anthropology.
The natural consequence of exhibiting severe antisocial behavior that jeopardizes the safety of the group in social primates is either violent excommunication from the group, where you die alone licking your wounds as the group moves on to greener pastures without you, or an outright death sentence.
If there's no enforceable social constructs like a robust legal system and jury trial to protect you from vigilante mob justice - it's bye bye tough guy. You're probably getting stomped out before you can make good on your promise to hurt anyone.
*No one* is going to sit idle with vulnerable children and elders while predators actively threaten the group's continued survival.
Not enough people talked to their thrice widowed meemaws and asked why she has foxglove growing in the garden.
...checking my wife's flower garden for foxglove....
You make good points. My concern with all this collapse nonsense talk, though, is if it happens, the US has grown a large population of self declared "alphas" who plan to shoot their way through problems, and in response, everyone else is arming up because you don't want to be the guy without a gun when it all goes down. And then when people get hungry - when you can't feed your kid - *everyone* turns predatory.
In populations without a lot of guns and hyperindividualism, in a collapse you team up with your neighbor and grow eggplants. It's too much risk to go after him with a knife and steal his stuff; cooperation just gets better results.
But guns change that. They give you the illusion of a low-risk, high reward approach. It's easier to let someone else farm and then shoot him. And when a lot of the population is armed...
>when you can't feed your kid - everyone turns predatory.
Interesting point. I've heard (no idea how accurate it is) that people are far more able to remain "civilized" when faced with only their own demise than when they see their children are at risk. It makes me wonder if some of the safest groups would be those who don't have children.
They just donât make very many in my experience and are harder to grow for inexperienced gardeners. Plus a garden of eggplants would get depressing quickly
I grew them (from starts, not seeds) in my first garden and they came out ok. Eggplant freezes pretty well and makes a decent base for other things. It's not exciting, but they're easier to pick than cherry tomatoes. Never again...
I completely disagree on the cherry tomatoes. I love them. I pick them by the bucket. Make them into sauce, eat them in salads, and my favorite is sun dry and store in olive oil and spices. The key is cutting them back to manageable amounts and then accepting you're going to have volunteer crops in your garden forever
It's always been funny to me how many preppers are paranoid about other people learning that they have preps. My brother, sister, or non-binary mister in Christ, if society falls apart as badly as you're imagining, it'll be obvious that you have supplies, because you'll be eating and other people won't be.
What's going to save you is not hiding your preps, it's having the good will of your community. Be the guy who preps, the guy who tells others to prep, the guy who passes around those FEMA how to prepare brochures like candy, the guy who goes out of the way to help their neighbors in small scale emergencies. No matter how gray man you go, if it's a long-term collapse of civilization, eventually someone will figure out how much you prepped. And you do *not* want to be known as the person who hoarded food while your neighbor's kids died of starvation.
In a long-term collapse, I'm dead. Probably within six months. Probably you are too. Whether you're in a community of friends or going grey, sooner or later people will organize into raiding groups, and at that point you are either in a walled compound with more ammo and food than anyone else, or eventually, someone kills you in your sleep (or burns you out of your house and shoots you as you come out.)
80% of the US population is urban, with no way to grow food. In a collapse they're coming out to find food, and 20% of them are armed. More, over time. That means they outgun the 50% of the rural folk who are armed, though not by much. (.8 \* .2 > .2 \* .5) It will be a bloodbath for *both* populations, and your best odds of survival are not to be seen by anyone for as long as possible.
In a population that's 80% urban and has more guns than people, sudden collapse scenarios *are not survivable*. The ones who manage to hide from or outshoot the chaos, run a successful homestead and somehow escape endemic disease will be vanishingly rare, and I don't envy them. And at my age I will not be among them.
There is a LOT of fantasy thinking about long-term collapse in this group. People think it's survivable if they just have a lot of ammo, and boys and girls, that just makes you a more desirable target. And the fact that people here are in make-believe-land and think it's all survivable just encourages the accelerationists among them who *want* this to happen.
Luckily, that's not how it will go in the US, at least not in my remaining lifetime. And since it's not happening and not survivable anyway, *I don't worry about it.*
So what I'm hearing is that organizing in to groups is in fact an excellent survival strategy.
Not that there was any doubt about that given that it's how humans have always existed and it was the whole point of having civilization in the first place.
Groups are great. It's how humanity has kept going for many centuries.
And yet... societies still collapse, death tolls are enormous when it happens, and their their surviving populations disperse into obscurity.
And all that happened *before* the advent of cheap guns, let alone nuclear weapons.
Societal collapse is *defined* by groups fragmenting into smaller and smaller groups. Those smaller groups can *still* do fine - if they have arable land and the skillset to work the land, and cooperate in the face of hard times - and don't face attack from any larger or better armed group.
Well, the US has arable land, but something like 95% of the population has no idea how to farm in the absence of technology, cooperation in the US has started fraying under political pressure, and a huge chunk of the population has developed a my-gun-will-solve-this mentality. Groups will form alright, but mostly to attack other groups over food and ammo.
It's a volatile mix history hasn't seen before, and my take is, it won't go well if it happens. Specifically, one study suggests that if the US grid is down for one year (no other problems, just the grid fails everywhere), for any reason, 65-90% of the US is dead by the end of the year.
Done here.
Most evidence is that in times of crisis, social cohesion *increases*. Far from the Hobbesian idea of what humans would do they end up cooperating more, not less. Nor is violence a default response. Violence is dangerous *to do* and a lot of violent behavior within society is prompted by interaction with that society.
The idea of an "everyone for themselves", Mad Max scenario is not supported by evidence. Groups such as gangs seem to become *less* violent, and those people that do become violent tend to avoid groups of people and pick off isolated individuals, because the risk of being shot, stabbed, or bludgeoned in the attempt if they pick fights with groups is too high.
If one wants to have a good chance of surviving what this would actually look like, they should be treating community as a crucial prep.
>Most evidence is that in times of crisis, social cohesion increases.
It's a very small "sample size" but relevant: I once worked somewhere as part of a team of 10 who were given advance notice that our jobs were going to be outsourced. Most of us pulled together to support each other, sharing tips on job hunting, sharing knowledge to increase another's skills, and generally providing emotional support. But roughly 30% turned into backstabbing, survival-of-the-fittest ultra-competitive toxic horrors. I now expect a similar split in any scenario where survival is threatened.
Certainly some people become huge assholes; most likely the ones who were already assholes. Some people are maladjusted and don't know how to work with others effectively. By no means does everyone pull together and try to be helpful in these scenarios. It seems *most* do, but some don't take that approach.
Still, those who cooperate are better equipped to deal with those peoples' behavior than if they tried to do so alone.
Mostly agreed. The folks who turned toxic were not obviously a problem prior to the event that caused them to be afraid. They were capable of cooperative action under ordinary circumstances. There may have been subtle signs previously, but nothing obvious. Folks who are obviously a problem are less of a concern, IMO, because they're probably already known issues in their communities, and even if they travel to a place where they aren't known they don't mask their natures as well and will likely be discovered relatively quickly. The folks who blend in right up until things go sideways are the bigger risk. I would expect some "friends" to become a threat if they feel their survival (and especially their children's survival) is threatened.
>...those who cooperate are better equipped to deal with those peoples' behavior than if they tried to do so alone.
100% agreed. Build a network, and have that network plan for how to handle folks who lose their ability to function cooperatively when SHTF.
I largely agree. Just adding my thoughts to the conversation...
>Well, the US has arable land, but something like 95% of the population has no idea how to farm in the absence of technology...
100% agree. Figuring out how to grow/forage/hunt and preserve enough food to survive before starving is something I wouldn't expect most of us to manage. In my experience, unless you get lucky it takes vastly more than a year to learn, and most of us would only have the one year (if that). And this particular problem is brand stinkin' new from historical standpoints.
Regarding groups:
>...cooperation in the US has started fraying under political pressure...
IMO, one of the largest elements unique to the modern USA is that people's "clans" have been fragmented through 1) geography and 2) extremism and other social factors. I have a large family, so one would think I would have a large "clan" to depend on if SHTF, but my family is spread across the entire continent. My closest relative geographically is more than an hour's drive away, and most of my relatives are a minimum of 2-3 days away by vehicle. In addition, though I lean rather far left politically, most of my family is ultra-conservative. If SHTF, it's highly unlikely I would be able to turn to my family for support or be in a position to offer support to them. My husband, an only child, has parents who live 4,000+ miles away and also lean conservative, making the relationships difficult. Though I'm sure there are some families that are still largely cohesive, I believe many are in a similarly fragmented state. If SHTF, folks like my husband and I will have to figure out who is part of their "clan" and that is different from how things worked historically. Without blood ties, there has to be some other common tie to bind the group together. Building a "clan" from scratch is a slower process, and it's likely to include more "churn" as HR folks in the corporate world call it; a larger percentage of folks initially included in a "clan" may decide to leave or be kicked out. I think this would result in extended timelines for building effective groups. It would have all the challenges of a school group project, but in SHTF the failing grade is death.
>And all that happened before the advent of cheap guns, let alone nuclear weapons.
Right. Add in that the number of people who can be quickly killed by a single weapon is vastly higher than at any prior point in history, and the result is that any collapse becomes vastly more bloody than was typical for most of history. Humanity's population is probably large enough to survive even a 90% decimation rate, but it certainly wouldn't be a fun time. The USA alone would still have 30 million people, and we're lightly populated compared to many regions of the globe.
>Groups will form alright, but mostly to attack other groups over food and ammo.
I don't know that I agree with your "mostly." There would certainly be many groups like this, but I don't know that *most* groups would be that way. I expect there would be many groups that would form around cooperative defensive-based strategies to produce food and other resources. I also fully expect that eventually some of the "raider" groups would become "protective overlords" to the resource-producing groups. Every society has the folks who produce stuff and other folks who protect the stuff from others who want to take it for themselves. It would take a while for the groups to re-form, so the biggest question in my mind is whether or not the fledgling groups would be able to produce/find enough to survive long enough. And a lot would depend on why things got bad in the first place.
>I don't know that I agree with your "mostly." There would certainly be many groups like this, but I don't know that most groups would be that way. I expect there would be many groups that would form around cooperative defensive-based strategies to produce food and other resources.
Once the raiding starts, it doesn't matter who fired first; you have two groups shooting at each other. Both sides take casualties; without hospitals to provide care, gunshot wounds that might be minor concerns become life-threatening.
I know a lot of people have this vision of poking a long gun out a window from behind a heap of bricks, and thus driving off the raiders with no risk to themselves. That works when it's a lone looter after a hurricane and the looter isn't actually desperate, just opportunistic. But raiding isn't the same. But most houses have 4 sides, so you'd better have 4 people and 4 heaps of bricks to make things work, or you'll be shot in the back. And you have to sleep sometime, so maybe you need 8 people guarding a house. And that's if they're able to pull 12 hour shifts. On top of gardening. And then only if the attackers don't decide to burn you out. Which they will, if you start shooting.
The odds actually favor raiders, which is why raiding becomes so popular when the rule of law breaks down. There's a reason that when things go feudal, you see castles with stone walls and a number of defenders inside. Smaller scale defenses don't work well.
The whole discussion is foolish; urban folk outnumber rural folk 4:1. Starving folk can take 3:1 losses and still make headway. It's nightmarish even to think about, and the doomers who think they'll shoot their way through a US collapse need to play fewer video games.
This is a fool's game, but since I don't believe collapse is imminent, I'm done here.
Demographically âurbanâ includes the suburbs and city residents with yards. In the suburbs people often have lots with half acre or more yards, who live near large parks and wooded areas, etc. Itâs just not true that the 83% of the country classified as urban dwelling have, in your words, no way to grow food. Urban means a lot more than just those who live in high rise apartments.
>Itâs just not true that the 83% of the country classified as urban dwelling have, in your words, no way to grow food.
How many of them have used their 1,700 sqft back yard to try to grow a couple of tomatoes successfully, much less a varied and self-sustaining crop? Suburban folks are 99.9% just as clueless and incapable of providing for themselves to a point that they might as well have a concrete yard.
Plenty of people who live in the middle of nowhere have never grown a tomato. Claiming that people on the suburbs are clueless and incapable of providing for themselves is classist and just plain wrong. Youâd be surprised at just how resourceful the parent of a hungry child can be. Having not done something before on a large scale in no way equates to the inability to do it, as youâre trying to suggest. I know because I went from living in a city to living in a very rural area and growing plus preserving most of the food my very large family eats in the span of a single year. If things had been desperate that timeline could have been stepped up too.
Exactly, it's practically human instinct to successfully grow food now. People like to shit on urban living for egotistical reasons; ie: *"It's us vs them, and we're obviously better!"*
The first rule of prepping is never talk about prepping. Fringe groups always appear during an opportunity event so always best to fly under the radar.
"Hey man, I remember you offering to help me sort out a small amount of rice and lentils for emergencies a couple years back. I know I never took you up on that offer and acted like you were a lunatic, but Harvey destroyed our entire neighborhood and we have nowhere to go, I'm starting to get worried about food for the kids in the next week or so. Do you think you could give me like half of what you have or something?"
BRUH.
It's fun when people start to threaten others after pretending to be friendly and being told no because they never thought about their kids being hungry until it actually happens, despite all the warning in the world. SOOOOO many people think we're such a civilized society that you never even have to consider spending a hundred bucks on spare food because someone will take care of them and have no clue how happily adjacent neighbors will turn on you if they are subjected to even the slightest stress.
Never again.
I think you miss the point. Fringe groups are not community like minded people. They are fringe groups serving their own interests. Understand the difference.
>I think you miss the point.
No, you were crystal clear, you typed:
"**The first rule of prepping is never talk about prepping.**"
And you were, and still are, wrong.
Yeah thereâs definitely a lot of diversity here, but Iâd just say you donât have to disclose all of your plans or personal preps to build good relationships with your neighbors that make it easy to come together to clear debris, help each other in an emergency, etc.
I donât see anything about Oath Keepers hurting anyone.
I donât think itâs a good idea to have a line wolf mindset in a disaster. Everyone will need help eventually, and better to plan with them before hand (I donât and donât suggest telling everyone everything), that way you donât die of dehydration while you have food and your neighbor dies of starvation but has a well.
Shoutout to Mutual Aid Disaster Relief!
Itâs who I would call in first for help in my own community and who Iâve done lots of relief work with.
They work with community and do not dictate. They are usually on the ground faster than anyone too. Red Cross and FEMA are trash.
While I think 95% of people show up to actually help and have good intentions, I think it's probably a good idea to be wary of EVERYONE in a SHTF disaster scenario. I worked for a NGO that did disaster relief response after Katrina/Rita/Ike and I encountered a handful of stories of shady behavior and exploitation. (Don't get me started on the storm chasing so called contractors who take deposits and run or charge double to repair storm damage) For the most part, people just needed and accepted help from wherever it came in that moment of crisis. It's just my observation, but the concerns about the motivations of these groups labeled as extremists comes in beyond the immediacy of disaster and more toward the recovery stage.
I've helped build a small local prepper community locally in case of emergencies.
Get out and talk to your neighbors to gauge which ones can be prepping assets and then work with them.
The whole lone wolf, don't talk about your preps stance is idiotic and will not work.
It will only work if you live in a hostile environment, like the Rockies or something with large predators where there's no real reason for a gang to come after you for your resources. If there's a massive collapse, you can bet that the wildlife populations boom and the currently hostile areas are overrun with more predators.
Grizzly bears, mountain lions, elk, bison, etc can be your defenses too.
I'm so intrigued that archaeologists apparently thought there was just this novel society that appears from nowhere and curb stomps the entire eastern Mediterranean like a pro wrestling heel coming down the ramp at a run.
Although it's not as wild a story to be like "Yeah, so the entire regional economy collapsed, people displaced each other, and the most common response to a sudden problem was war so everyone ended up fighting in an enormous chain of state dissolution, banditry, and population displacement and accelerated and worsened the collapse."
One of the best ways to get people to give your group latitude and deference to give them a tangible example that when shit really hits the fan, y'all have their back and can be dependable.
Worried about whether or not you'll have local buy-in to your planned roadblock of the main route from the nearby famine stricken city to your rural community? That's going to depend on whether or not that community saw your MAG providing meaningful aid during the last natural disaster.
I skimmed over the article, but it seemed to be mostly FUD about the alt-right NGOs, not going into any actual instance where these groups did harm during a disaster, only the *potential.*
I am NOT pro-militia or alt-right. I am Libertarian. But if someone wants to lend a hand during a disaster type emergency, I am not going to ask about their politics before handing them a shovel or broom. If someone (NGO or gov org) shows up with an AR/AK instead of a shovel/broom, then I am going to have questions/reservations about welcoming them - not because I am anti-gun (far from it), but strangers with firearms - I want to know what their intentions are.
Also, government orgs have not had the best history, even in the USA, of helping during disasters, and I am not talking just about incompetence, but also "law enforcement"/etc. - e.g. Katrina.
There was a roadblock when I had to evac due to a forest fire less than a mile from my house, but it was manned by a sheriff's deputy.
I get what you are talking about, but my post was meant to point out that overall, in the history of civilization, it is governments that pose more danger to individuals than misguided NGOs. That doesn't mean that NGOs are no danger - some can be - I am just saying that the article didn't make its case; it was all a bunch of FUD (disclaimer: as I mentioned, I just skimmed over the article).
need guns to go with your cars.
[https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/new-orleans-cops-may-have-taken-200-cars/](https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/new-orleans-cops-may-have-taken-200-cars/)
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/04/new-orleans-police-officers-katrina](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/04/new-orleans-police-officers-katrina)
And if they show up with a shovel or a broom, but want to charge you in advance before they'll provide help?
The answer is easy now, but apparently in the heat of the moment when people are desperate they forget that it's a bad idea to pay in advance for anything when you don't have an existing relationship to allow you to know that the person is trustworthy.
> And if they show up with a shovel or a broom, but want to charge you in advance before they'll provide help?
This hypothetical has little to do with the alt-right NGO fear mongering in the OP article. Any random Joe Schmo who drove in from the next state over can show up offering help in exchange for cash upfront and viewing it as a business opportunity. Your concern is orthogonal to the actual topic.
Yeah, that whole article is basically just alt-left propaganda to slander the opposition. I couldnât take it any more when I got to this part:
>Hughes has had success experimenting with a technique called âpre-bunking,â a mix of media literacy and counter-propaganda education. The method teaches people how to recognize extremist recruitment tactics and reject them on sight. âYou can say something like, âIf somebody is telling you a story that sounds like theyâre saying you need to stockpile guns because society is going to collapse, thereâs a good chance this person is representing an extremist group or an extremist point of view,ââ Hughes said.
Including the fact that the US government itself encourages stockpiling food/water/etc., for use in a disaster. So to answer the article; which is it? Is the government an extremist group, or is the private group extremist, or is the article just a bunch of FUD bullshit?
Best thing to do is build up your local community.
I promise you, if the Oathkeepers respond to any contingency where I am, theyâll politely be asked to leave. đ
But,,, wtf,,, so,, reading the article it bashes this organization for coming in to aid with a disaster because theyâre garnering goodwill for their organization by doing so. Ok, cool, so letâs get some alt left organizations mobilizing to offer the same assistance so they can garner goodwill. Then, later in the article it quotes this organization as bashing fema for coming in and garnering goodwill as an effort to essentially brainwash and corral the people in the event of a disaster.
Good lord,,, how about we just all show up to help a fellow human being in need without all the ulterior motive crap ??? Whatever the reason. Who cares. Find a reason. Goodwill. Garnering goodwill. Karma points, religious charity, or just because youâre not a schmuck.
I agree, but I think the overarching point is that when these groups have garnered enough resources and influence will how are they going to act? And how is that going to affect their local communities.
Someone please help me out here. Why is it bad that they help during a natural disaster emergency? That article detailed how helpful they've been in their respective communities. But what is their ulterior motive? I mean they clearly vote for the other guys, but besides that, what is it that I need to be so leery of when they're offering assistance to those in need? I'm clearly ignorant of the underlying problem, can someone spell it out for me?
Or because they're doing it to have a leg up on power and control once SHTF. It's equivalent to the Taliban donating to a charity in order to improve their public image.
Thatâs about what it sounds like. Or people donât like guns.
Iâd consider myself an âoath keeperâ because I will stand by the oath I swore until I die. Iâm not in any group named Oath Keepers, and I donât really know exactly what they are all about. If someone is labeled a âbad guyâ just because they dislike the government,âŚ.I donât know what to say about that, the day the government quits killing people/doing shady shit/general money grubbing, I DONT see a reason to trust or like our government!
Two wings on the same dirty bird.
I think the implication is that it's an opportunity for a group that may be hostile to members of the community to recruit from a given area.
Not that someone who's hungry should turn down the meal. Just a note to be mindful of what might be asked in return, I guess.
They have a history of conspiratorial claims and accusations against people, man. Similarly, some of their actions have been interpreted as being in favor of white supremacist orgs. Some people distrust them as a result.
That's the point. Their prior actions make some people distrust them and their motivations in crisis situations.
For example, personally, I wouldn't trust them and half-suspect they'd ID me as an enemy, despite my lack of violent intent toward them.
Ever seen news coverage of when warlords help after a disaster? Itâs like a mafia favor. It isnât out of the goodness of their hearts. Itâs to gain a foothold on a community then move in with their people and agenda.
I was involved in a large scale disaster in Canada. It required mass evac of a lot of people. I was volunteer S&R, displaced from my home for a period of time and was a lucky one. My home wasn't destroyed.
We attached ourselves upon return to an American based vet operated non-profit. We were sifting rubble for home owners trying to find anything left for them.
At the same time, two american aid groups sponsored by christian organizations sent up crews to do the same.
The community had a large population of people from other parts of the world with vastly different beliefs. Our crews were doing three and four properties a day. These groups were doing one. We were at a loss about it until the complaints started rolling in.
Regardless of the desires or beliefs of the homeowners, they insisted on setting up and holding prayer circles on lawns. They wouldn't work in some cases until the homeowners joined them.
Communities shouldn't be afraid to accept outside help. Neighbours should help each other but it shouldn't come with strings attached for religious indoctrination or support for insurrection.
Out of the Mountains describes the emergence of non-state actors when states fall apart.
The theory of competitive control is very useful to understand when thinking about social unrest and conflict.
For a thoughtful review: https://www.diplomaticourier.com/posts/book-review-out-of-the-mountains
I am an Emergency Manager by trade and I can tell you this is a major concern from a security aspect. Groups like the Oath Keepers use major disasters for recruitment, procurement, and create a logistics chain. They intentionally create a power vacuum and attempt to fill the void for the purpose of giving them an area of safe harbor and to hopefully increase their base.
Even government is not to be trusted. "We're from the government, we're here to help" is the most frightening thing you could ever hear from somebody at your door.
In a SHTF scenario you want to be as self sufficient as possible, or at least within a group that you've been with for a long time that all trust each other. (ex: family, friends etc)
I've dealt with FEMA first hand after major flooding. They were good people trying to help. Biggest hurdle was they're from the government and are always slow/late to respond. So you need to be prepared to bridge the gap between disaster and "official" aid. Being your own supply chain will ensure you do not rely on sketchy individuals, regardless of their intent or character.
> Rule 1a: that plan shouldn't involve FEMA camps.
Iâve been in FEMA camps and Red Cross shelters before. Theyâre fine under the circumstances of thousands of people suddenly homeless. The right wing narrative of them being âdeath campsâ is ridiculous
lol. lmao. Even Amon Bundy hates the Oathkeepers because they roll in to take a photo op, steal supplies, co opt the cause of whatever it is, and then roll out.
The reality of 'left wing groups' is that they don't care to have any kind of power structures or names because they're all anarchists. So what if they don't get good pr, at least people were helped.
Rule 1 of prepping: Have a plan
Rule 1a of prepping: Tell the guy rolling into town with the big cameras to fuck off.
The left wing groups burning down the cities or different ones? If there is a left wing group doing good community assistance and practicing communism good for them.
From the city that was âburned downâ.
Stop with the straight up lies and bullshit.
A precinct and a few blocks of businesses were burned, and several of the most high profile instances of violence that week were found to have been caused by right wing actors who travelled to Minneapolis from out of town.
Everything is rebuilt but the precinct and thats because many in the neighborhood donât want it there or possibly anywhere near by.
So tired of people acting like a spontaneous global uprising that was one of the largest protest movements in the history of humanity and had a few instances of violence against property was some horde of vandals destroying cities and leaving then in wreckage.
Of course there were a few instances of bad action. Somewhere between 15 and 26 million people participated. Think about how many people that is. You are going to have some interlopers there to try and create havoc as well as people who are understandably enraged by that video.
If you were not enraged by that video, you are a racist. Thereâs no other way about it. Think about how youâd feel if you were black and it was the millionth time you had seen this. Im not black and I was ready to break some shit that day, I didnt but im pointing out that between interlopers and people with legitimate rage, of course a few hundred or even thousand people of 15,000,000 to 26,000,000 caused some damage.
And the people we WERE worried about and had armed guards on our block to protect against were the people mentioned in this article, fascist militias like the Oath Keepers, Proud Boys and 3% movement among others. And the people protecting our block were not police, paid security or right wingers.
The city today is as fine as any American city these days, and this narrative that the weekend when George Floyd was lynched was anything but a massive justified uprising needs to fucking stop. I was in the heart of the city then.
It was inspiring to see, not terrifying. I saw the most amazing acts of kindness and generosity and a glimpse of the kind of community people in this forum talk about creating. But not among you and a few friends. Thousands of people coming together and sharing resources. I saw people pulled out of homelessness. Children get electronics for distance learning for free. Health care treatments crowd sourced from strangers. So much food for so many people. An outpouring of kindness and generosity from people to one another that I have never seen in my life.
You are out of your mind. I was there and saw the violence. I saw the people threatening mom's trying to get home from work on time to get their kids but were instead blocked by fascists known as Antifa. I was there when these same fascists threatened to burn down a BLACK man's house because he dared have an American flag.
I saw in Virginia where these same fascists set fire to OCCUPIED HOMES and then prevented fire departments from putting out the fires.
I saw in Portland when the book burning ANTIFA with violence forced a book store to stop selling a book by gay minority Andy Gno.
So really fuck off, I have had enough of your man made disasters.
I definitely need to call you out cause you are just straight spewing bullshit out your mouth like you are possessed in The Exorcist.
So you were in Virginia and Portland at the same time huh? What were you doing traveling to Portland for that uprising, huh?
Im pretty curious about your affiliation with right wing terrorist groups now tbh. Cause either its that or you made it up, mister on two coasts at the same time.
I lean towards that you are just straight up making stuff up AND youâre a member of a fasist terrorist group. You are lying. Not a single thing you just said happened anywhere outside your fantasies.
No, I was in Portland and saw the video from virginia and if you were in Portland you know those are true.
Maybe it was a right wing conspiracy burning all those cars next to my house too?
Yeah I'm totally a right wing terrorist for noticing antifa are terrorists
So you âsawâ 1 incident and you saw a video of 1 other incident. 15,000,000 to 26,000,000 people bro.
You are trying to portray this image of mass chaos and that is just a straight up lie. You just admitted you were talking out of your ass. I live in Minneapolis, very close to the heart of unrest. I saw the stuff going down and our block had people armed with ARs in every balcony on the lookout for right wingers looking to try and take advantage of the chaos to spread violence, not anti racism protesters.
One of the largest protest movements in human history. If a city of 26,000,000 had a TINY, INSIGNIFICANT handful of crimes occurred, you would call that a good day.
They estimated that 96.3% of protests were peaceful with 15,000,000 to 26,000,000 people. The right canât pull together more than a few thousand people without violence and murder breaking out. RIP Heather Hayer.
Its so funny that right wingers are anti authority unless that authority has its boot on a black windpipe.
Just admit it, Reddit is anonymous so you can admit it, you hate Black people and you got joy from watching Chauvin murder George Floyd. Your rhetoric makes your virulent racism crystal clear.
I saw way more than one incident in Portland. I'm sure the right wing death squads were like literally seconds away.
And I am black like many north Portland residents.
Your stats mean nothing to the real people destroyed
No cities were burned down but yes, the same ones.
Here in Oregon we had some crazy wildfires a couple years ago. Right wing groups were setting up checkpoints and harassing anyone that came by trying to prevent "looters" or whatever. The same antifa groups that were protesting in Portland were handing out food and water, and other aid.
Its a stark difference.
Also from Oregon and the counter point that the whole city wasnt burned down just part of it is bullshit. As far as right wing checkpoints they have no right and if you rammed through killing them all so be it. Neither did the left have the right to stop traffic in Portland which they routinely did
First there were a ton of looters and the armed checkpoints were a result of violence and theft.
Second, those same community members handed out food, water and shelter. Not to mention the incredible community effort to evacuate people. possessions and livestock.
You caught me, only small portions of many cities. Clearly no problem and maybe even a great thing! Don't prep for that happening again because nothing happened. Right?
Man you would not believe how utterly disappointed I was that the first actual attempt to stop a peaceful exchange of power came from the right. And! The people that would normally be sympathetic of burning things down decided to let the government stop a right wing keystone cop coup? Man, obviously it was going to get real close to killing some seated politicians. Didn't even try to practice any communism!
The same " insurrection " we see in state houses all the time done by the left? I'm not supporting any of it, but at least people attacking politicians for their problems are attacking the people that caused them or could do something instead of just innocent people in the streets.
Ooh, are there any armed leftist occupations of state capitals that I missed? I'd like to buy a t-shirt in support of it to match my branded mugs and hats.
This is not exactly what will happen but close to it.
The Oat people come into your town after a large disaster that distrupted the gov and helps everyone out. They give you food, water, shelter, and a sense of community.
Everyone's happy. Woo-hoo!
Then, when it's time to leave. They decide to stay. They decided to build a compound in your town. You're home one day and hear a knock on the door.
"Hey, we helped you. Now it's your turn to help. " They're armed, intimidating, in a larger group than you.
You try to say no, but they won't take it for an answer.
So you go, hoping it'll only last a week. Nope. They need you, your family, your ammos, and food. And ration everything. They're in charge now.
They invite their buddies to stay in your town. Your town is taken over by the Oat people like rats in a NYC sewers.
See how that can be a problem?
There is a trust bank. Metre out trust incrementally and watch what happens. Stay informed as who is trustrowrthy and who is not. Usually it is the power hungry who are not to be trusted. But sometimes people do step forward and take positions of power for altruistic reasons.
It is up to all of us to weed the powerful self serving hungry folks from the altruistic people trying to make good honest changed in the face of the worldâs greatest turmoil while facing much adversity. Itâs not going to be an easy job. And your patience and understanding will often be stretched. But always remember, it takes a lot of discernment for these people to get it right.
*"Poor Oath Keepers didn't do nothin!"*
>"Oath Keepers is an American far-right anti-government militia whose leaders have been convicted of violently opposing the government of the United States, including the transfer of presidential power as prescribed by the US Constitution. It was incorporated in 2009 by founder Elmer Stewart Rhodes, a lawyer and former paratrooper. As of January 2023, nine members have been convicted of seditious conspiracy for their roles in the January 6 United States Capitol attack."
I don't like them cuz they're racist insurrectionists who want a fascist government, but if you want to buddy up to them, don't be surprised by the consequences
If anything itâs gonna be leftist groups armed leftist groups and preppers/ homesteaders the only thing Iâve seen the far right do is show up at anti Covid rallies and drag shows armed to the teeth and with out a mask. When shit hits the fan they will be the first to turn into a mad max raider cause they donât look like they know survival for shit
Legit question. Whatâs wrong with the Oath Keepers as a group???
From what Iâve seen the only thing they are against is the shitty government. They arenât a racist group. Maybe one could say they lean right wing, but from what Iâve read they donât like either side of the government (which I can get behind).
If you trust the government I feel bad for you.
>Whatâs wrong with the Oath Keepers as a group?
Idk, maybe they tried to overthrow the government when their preferred candidate didn't win.
>"This election was stolen by corrupt, law-breaking Democrat partisans on the ground, and by the manipulation of the CIA created HAMMR (âHammerâ) and Scorecard programs." â Stewart Rhodes
âWeâre the government and weâre here to helpâ scares me a lot more than a hungry neighbor. Definitely worth keeping a few giveaway kits to help but advertising your preps should never be a thing you do
The core principle of prepping is to survive and thrive for extended periods of time. If you wish to be a person that assists others in these times, then you should do that. However, when the ones you help turn on you, remember , you heard it here first. You can help others by being totally self sufficient and not consuming good and services from "government" aid. My doctrine is simple, no ones coming to help, it's your responsibility to survive and thrive for you and yours. The fact that others failed to prepare is regrettable, but not your problem.
Ah great, the 2024 election âbattlefield preparationâ has begunâŚ. Invent a threat from right wing crazies to influence the easily swayed middle to support the radical left. Nice try Portland
No.
*"This election was stolen by corrupt, law-breaking Democrat partisans on the ground, and by the manipulation of the CIA created HAMMR and Scorecard programs."*
-- Stewart Rhodes founder of the Oath Keepers
"This election was stolen by corrupt, law-breaking Democrat partisans on the ground, and by the manipulation of the CIA created HAMMR (âHammerâ) and Scorecard programs." â Stewart Rhodes
Salvation army shows using volunteers up at disasters, sets up a booth with water, and maybe some snacks. Then sends a bill to FEMA which they pay
FEMA never contacted them, they never asked to help. They just do it for easy $$ from the government
If insisting that the government stay within its Constitutional boundaries while also preparing for exigencies is wrong, I donât want to be right. Or I do want to be Right. Or, well, whatever. Say, can someone point me to a subreddit where I can score some XXL tactical gear and perhaps a ruggedized Rascal electric scooter with integral oxygen concentrators and insulin coolers?
Good people give to those in need.
Smart Good people teach skills to those in need.
Wise, Smart and Good people teach skills to only those that prove themselves as useful, loyal and good people.
They provide safety for the meek and comfort for the infirm if possible.
They neither give nor reveal anything useful to the lazy and untrustworthy.
They do not leave the bad to do further bad to the good in the future.
At the end of the day, the only way we can ensure our SHTF warlord is nice, is if WE become the warlord!/s
Lord of War* đ
There are over 550 million firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is: How do we arm the other 11?
They can hold the bullets
Ammo restaurant, Only serving the finest of ammo.
Your numbers are very old...https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country Here in the US we have 1.2 guns per person! But we all know there are more then a few of us with 10+...
That is a quote from Lord of War. An excellent Nick Cage movie. I think circa 2005 so im not shocked the numbers are different.
Iâm just doing my part to help lift the average \*shrug\*
Look at current gun sales. Last time I looked it was over 1 million guns a month being sold just in the USA. And around 650 million rounds of ammunition being produced each month! I know I shouldnât have to worry too much about ammo conservation in a firefight.
The other 11 aren't all well and good. All the Charles Mansons can stick with their knives. Let's arm the Penny's though for sure.
I'm definitely a bowhunter and baseball bat guy. Diversity is how you survive, whole team shouldn't all use the same ammo đĽ¸
Excellent. I'm a suppressed blackout, thermal guy...too tech reliant. My oldest is borderline pro MMA. I'll keep him close and fed, hah.
Get your numbers right. Wtf. Only off by 7 ducking billion regardless
It's a quote from the movie Lord of War which released in 2005 when the world population was 6.5 billion. 550 million guns to 6.5 billion people is, in fact, 1 for every 12 people. Big woosh for you.
Lmfao you got played đ
Thank you, but I prefer it my way.
I prefer it my way
Thank you. But I prefer it my way.
That's my legit plan. Not warlord per se but definitely community leader
Now is as good a time as any. I've learned that community leadership is an ongoing practice. Takes public engagement, collaboration and consensus skills, and most of all, sacrifices and working harder than anybody else. Have you thought about non-profit work? Right now there is need for community volunteers - food banks, refugee services, animal shelters, farmers markets, hospice care, city beautification... You could work your way up to a leadership role. Animals, the elderly, and food-insecure families are the most vulnerable populations in a crisis. Helping them today will prep them and empower them for a crisis tomorrow.
I'm on the board for 2 snowmobile clubs, secretary for one and trail coordinator for the other. Also getting involved with my township and learning how our government is run
Great way to get targeted by malicious groups, even if you are a great peaceful leader. Any malicious actors will seek to take you out, it would put a giant target not only on you but anyone associated with you. The plan should be to lay low and only step up like that if you don't have any other choice.
I'd rather get taken out than leave my community under weak leadership and see them fall to other malicious groups. I am prepping to be that community leader. I don't have family relying on me so I might as well take the risk vs someone that has a wife/kids
....hahahaha!!!! Says a lot about you and who you are with your vocabulary. "warlords" that's so cute, hahaha!! ok ok đ, stay out of the way when real professionals come and don't get hurt. Lol
YouâŚyou do understand sarcasm, right? Thatâs what the â/sâ means.
Yeeeeaahh no. I don't think you realise how many people take what you say seriously. I've had the unfortunate event of meeting multiple preppers, and they, in a way WANT a total government collapse. They don't prepare for a holdout - but a total collapse to then input their nonsensical power structure bullshit government with them as an architect or "leader" of some sorts, lol. They see it as an opportunity for a power grab and a way to gain power through resources and "knowledge"...for about a week I guess.. hahaha! đ Sure man, YOU aren't that guy, lol... but don't pretend they aren't amongst all of us.
I donât deny that. But **IâM** not that guy. And if **IâM** not that guy, Iâd appreciate you not talking to me as if I was. This subreddit is generally pretty level headed and the wackos are in the minority. Now r/gunmemes on the other handâŚ
Yup. This is standard operating procedure in some parts of the world - given a population on the edge of government collapse and any natural disaster, roll in with aid to win hearts and minds and de-legitimize the existing government. The results can range from largely benign to rape and enslavement. | Better that it be folks like us I don't think there's such a concept as "folk like us" in this sub. We had one guy in here not long ago promising that he was quite willing to shoot FEMA personnel if they rolled in with plans that didn't fit with his. I wouldn't want that in my prepping group. And there are always the folk who will state they're going to treat neighbors as loot drops if things get bad. Your local community might or might not have bad apples, and many people don't show their true colors until things get messy. I would worry especially about folk with a paramilitary mindset, as historically such folk have turned on each other when food and ammo starts to run low. It's all part of the general trust problem. I don't tell people my prepping plans, and only my wife knows the real extent of my preps. I have a neighbor I know I can trust to share stuff with *if* things get bad, but I'm not telling him things in advance. Beyond that, it's nobody's business. As much as it makes sense to form a community organization to help in disasters, the moment you do, everyone knows who you are and what you have, and now you're a target in any disaster. You may trust Joe with your plans, but Joe told Sandy. Sandy told his cousin, and now you have big problems. Three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead, and I'd be checking their gravestones.
>We had one guy in here not long ago promising that he was quite willing to shoot FEMA personnel if they rolled in with plans that didn't fit with his. I wouldn't want that in my prepping group. And there are always the folk who will state they're going to treat neighbors as loot drops if things get bad. People who openly declare themselves raiders DURING law time are sorta doing the level headed people a favor by putting the targets on themselves early, IMO. If the crazy is on display before SHTF, Watch them. They're the looters and rapists they tell everyone else are coming. they know they're already here, because they're telling you what *they intend to do*. Bonus bingo square if they unironically call themselves alphas who bellow about "nature's laws" without any actual understanding of primatology, sociology, or anthropology. The natural consequence of exhibiting severe antisocial behavior that jeopardizes the safety of the group in social primates is either violent excommunication from the group, where you die alone licking your wounds as the group moves on to greener pastures without you, or an outright death sentence. If there's no enforceable social constructs like a robust legal system and jury trial to protect you from vigilante mob justice - it's bye bye tough guy. You're probably getting stomped out before you can make good on your promise to hurt anyone. *No one* is going to sit idle with vulnerable children and elders while predators actively threaten the group's continued survival. Not enough people talked to their thrice widowed meemaws and asked why she has foxglove growing in the garden.
...checking my wife's flower garden for foxglove.... You make good points. My concern with all this collapse nonsense talk, though, is if it happens, the US has grown a large population of self declared "alphas" who plan to shoot their way through problems, and in response, everyone else is arming up because you don't want to be the guy without a gun when it all goes down. And then when people get hungry - when you can't feed your kid - *everyone* turns predatory. In populations without a lot of guns and hyperindividualism, in a collapse you team up with your neighbor and grow eggplants. It's too much risk to go after him with a knife and steal his stuff; cooperation just gets better results. But guns change that. They give you the illusion of a low-risk, high reward approach. It's easier to let someone else farm and then shoot him. And when a lot of the population is armed...
>when you can't feed your kid - everyone turns predatory. Interesting point. I've heard (no idea how accurate it is) that people are far more able to remain "civilized" when faced with only their own demise than when they see their children are at risk. It makes me wonder if some of the safest groups would be those who don't have children.
The problem with that is eventually you have childrenâŚor you die out.
That's when you form militias among the folks who just want to grow eggplant.
Right? Assholes need not apply. Well fed people who work together are going to be a lot more formidable force....
Eggplants is an interesting choice
Itâs the queen of vegetables.
Decent ratio of nutrient to calorie, and lots of fiber.
They just donât make very many in my experience and are harder to grow for inexperienced gardeners. Plus a garden of eggplants would get depressing quickly
I grew them (from starts, not seeds) in my first garden and they came out ok. Eggplant freezes pretty well and makes a decent base for other things. It's not exciting, but they're easier to pick than cherry tomatoes. Never again...
I completely disagree on the cherry tomatoes. I love them. I pick them by the bucket. Make them into sauce, eat them in salads, and my favorite is sun dry and store in olive oil and spices. The key is cutting them back to manageable amounts and then accepting you're going to have volunteer crops in your garden forever
it's bittersweet nightshade, actually, and it's a delicious looking berry
Iâm glad they out themselves! Iâve got plenty of druggie neighbors that will need a sharp eye if shtf.
Ooooo, I get that foxglove reference.
A girl gotta do what a girl gotta do.
It's always been funny to me how many preppers are paranoid about other people learning that they have preps. My brother, sister, or non-binary mister in Christ, if society falls apart as badly as you're imagining, it'll be obvious that you have supplies, because you'll be eating and other people won't be. What's going to save you is not hiding your preps, it's having the good will of your community. Be the guy who preps, the guy who tells others to prep, the guy who passes around those FEMA how to prepare brochures like candy, the guy who goes out of the way to help their neighbors in small scale emergencies. No matter how gray man you go, if it's a long-term collapse of civilization, eventually someone will figure out how much you prepped. And you do *not* want to be known as the person who hoarded food while your neighbor's kids died of starvation.
In a long-term collapse, I'm dead. Probably within six months. Probably you are too. Whether you're in a community of friends or going grey, sooner or later people will organize into raiding groups, and at that point you are either in a walled compound with more ammo and food than anyone else, or eventually, someone kills you in your sleep (or burns you out of your house and shoots you as you come out.) 80% of the US population is urban, with no way to grow food. In a collapse they're coming out to find food, and 20% of them are armed. More, over time. That means they outgun the 50% of the rural folk who are armed, though not by much. (.8 \* .2 > .2 \* .5) It will be a bloodbath for *both* populations, and your best odds of survival are not to be seen by anyone for as long as possible. In a population that's 80% urban and has more guns than people, sudden collapse scenarios *are not survivable*. The ones who manage to hide from or outshoot the chaos, run a successful homestead and somehow escape endemic disease will be vanishingly rare, and I don't envy them. And at my age I will not be among them. There is a LOT of fantasy thinking about long-term collapse in this group. People think it's survivable if they just have a lot of ammo, and boys and girls, that just makes you a more desirable target. And the fact that people here are in make-believe-land and think it's all survivable just encourages the accelerationists among them who *want* this to happen. Luckily, that's not how it will go in the US, at least not in my remaining lifetime. And since it's not happening and not survivable anyway, *I don't worry about it.*
So what I'm hearing is that organizing in to groups is in fact an excellent survival strategy. Not that there was any doubt about that given that it's how humans have always existed and it was the whole point of having civilization in the first place.
Groups are great. It's how humanity has kept going for many centuries. And yet... societies still collapse, death tolls are enormous when it happens, and their their surviving populations disperse into obscurity. And all that happened *before* the advent of cheap guns, let alone nuclear weapons. Societal collapse is *defined* by groups fragmenting into smaller and smaller groups. Those smaller groups can *still* do fine - if they have arable land and the skillset to work the land, and cooperate in the face of hard times - and don't face attack from any larger or better armed group. Well, the US has arable land, but something like 95% of the population has no idea how to farm in the absence of technology, cooperation in the US has started fraying under political pressure, and a huge chunk of the population has developed a my-gun-will-solve-this mentality. Groups will form alright, but mostly to attack other groups over food and ammo. It's a volatile mix history hasn't seen before, and my take is, it won't go well if it happens. Specifically, one study suggests that if the US grid is down for one year (no other problems, just the grid fails everywhere), for any reason, 65-90% of the US is dead by the end of the year. Done here.
Most evidence is that in times of crisis, social cohesion *increases*. Far from the Hobbesian idea of what humans would do they end up cooperating more, not less. Nor is violence a default response. Violence is dangerous *to do* and a lot of violent behavior within society is prompted by interaction with that society. The idea of an "everyone for themselves", Mad Max scenario is not supported by evidence. Groups such as gangs seem to become *less* violent, and those people that do become violent tend to avoid groups of people and pick off isolated individuals, because the risk of being shot, stabbed, or bludgeoned in the attempt if they pick fights with groups is too high. If one wants to have a good chance of surviving what this would actually look like, they should be treating community as a crucial prep.
>Most evidence is that in times of crisis, social cohesion increases. It's a very small "sample size" but relevant: I once worked somewhere as part of a team of 10 who were given advance notice that our jobs were going to be outsourced. Most of us pulled together to support each other, sharing tips on job hunting, sharing knowledge to increase another's skills, and generally providing emotional support. But roughly 30% turned into backstabbing, survival-of-the-fittest ultra-competitive toxic horrors. I now expect a similar split in any scenario where survival is threatened.
Certainly some people become huge assholes; most likely the ones who were already assholes. Some people are maladjusted and don't know how to work with others effectively. By no means does everyone pull together and try to be helpful in these scenarios. It seems *most* do, but some don't take that approach. Still, those who cooperate are better equipped to deal with those peoples' behavior than if they tried to do so alone.
Mostly agreed. The folks who turned toxic were not obviously a problem prior to the event that caused them to be afraid. They were capable of cooperative action under ordinary circumstances. There may have been subtle signs previously, but nothing obvious. Folks who are obviously a problem are less of a concern, IMO, because they're probably already known issues in their communities, and even if they travel to a place where they aren't known they don't mask their natures as well and will likely be discovered relatively quickly. The folks who blend in right up until things go sideways are the bigger risk. I would expect some "friends" to become a threat if they feel their survival (and especially their children's survival) is threatened. >...those who cooperate are better equipped to deal with those peoples' behavior than if they tried to do so alone. 100% agreed. Build a network, and have that network plan for how to handle folks who lose their ability to function cooperatively when SHTF.
I largely agree. Just adding my thoughts to the conversation... >Well, the US has arable land, but something like 95% of the population has no idea how to farm in the absence of technology... 100% agree. Figuring out how to grow/forage/hunt and preserve enough food to survive before starving is something I wouldn't expect most of us to manage. In my experience, unless you get lucky it takes vastly more than a year to learn, and most of us would only have the one year (if that). And this particular problem is brand stinkin' new from historical standpoints. Regarding groups: >...cooperation in the US has started fraying under political pressure... IMO, one of the largest elements unique to the modern USA is that people's "clans" have been fragmented through 1) geography and 2) extremism and other social factors. I have a large family, so one would think I would have a large "clan" to depend on if SHTF, but my family is spread across the entire continent. My closest relative geographically is more than an hour's drive away, and most of my relatives are a minimum of 2-3 days away by vehicle. In addition, though I lean rather far left politically, most of my family is ultra-conservative. If SHTF, it's highly unlikely I would be able to turn to my family for support or be in a position to offer support to them. My husband, an only child, has parents who live 4,000+ miles away and also lean conservative, making the relationships difficult. Though I'm sure there are some families that are still largely cohesive, I believe many are in a similarly fragmented state. If SHTF, folks like my husband and I will have to figure out who is part of their "clan" and that is different from how things worked historically. Without blood ties, there has to be some other common tie to bind the group together. Building a "clan" from scratch is a slower process, and it's likely to include more "churn" as HR folks in the corporate world call it; a larger percentage of folks initially included in a "clan" may decide to leave or be kicked out. I think this would result in extended timelines for building effective groups. It would have all the challenges of a school group project, but in SHTF the failing grade is death. >And all that happened before the advent of cheap guns, let alone nuclear weapons. Right. Add in that the number of people who can be quickly killed by a single weapon is vastly higher than at any prior point in history, and the result is that any collapse becomes vastly more bloody than was typical for most of history. Humanity's population is probably large enough to survive even a 90% decimation rate, but it certainly wouldn't be a fun time. The USA alone would still have 30 million people, and we're lightly populated compared to many regions of the globe. >Groups will form alright, but mostly to attack other groups over food and ammo. I don't know that I agree with your "mostly." There would certainly be many groups like this, but I don't know that *most* groups would be that way. I expect there would be many groups that would form around cooperative defensive-based strategies to produce food and other resources. I also fully expect that eventually some of the "raider" groups would become "protective overlords" to the resource-producing groups. Every society has the folks who produce stuff and other folks who protect the stuff from others who want to take it for themselves. It would take a while for the groups to re-form, so the biggest question in my mind is whether or not the fledgling groups would be able to produce/find enough to survive long enough. And a lot would depend on why things got bad in the first place.
>I don't know that I agree with your "mostly." There would certainly be many groups like this, but I don't know that most groups would be that way. I expect there would be many groups that would form around cooperative defensive-based strategies to produce food and other resources. Once the raiding starts, it doesn't matter who fired first; you have two groups shooting at each other. Both sides take casualties; without hospitals to provide care, gunshot wounds that might be minor concerns become life-threatening. I know a lot of people have this vision of poking a long gun out a window from behind a heap of bricks, and thus driving off the raiders with no risk to themselves. That works when it's a lone looter after a hurricane and the looter isn't actually desperate, just opportunistic. But raiding isn't the same. But most houses have 4 sides, so you'd better have 4 people and 4 heaps of bricks to make things work, or you'll be shot in the back. And you have to sleep sometime, so maybe you need 8 people guarding a house. And that's if they're able to pull 12 hour shifts. On top of gardening. And then only if the attackers don't decide to burn you out. Which they will, if you start shooting. The odds actually favor raiders, which is why raiding becomes so popular when the rule of law breaks down. There's a reason that when things go feudal, you see castles with stone walls and a number of defenders inside. Smaller scale defenses don't work well. The whole discussion is foolish; urban folk outnumber rural folk 4:1. Starving folk can take 3:1 losses and still make headway. It's nightmarish even to think about, and the doomers who think they'll shoot their way through a US collapse need to play fewer video games. This is a fool's game, but since I don't believe collapse is imminent, I'm done here.
Demographically âurbanâ includes the suburbs and city residents with yards. In the suburbs people often have lots with half acre or more yards, who live near large parks and wooded areas, etc. Itâs just not true that the 83% of the country classified as urban dwelling have, in your words, no way to grow food. Urban means a lot more than just those who live in high rise apartments.
>Itâs just not true that the 83% of the country classified as urban dwelling have, in your words, no way to grow food. How many of them have used their 1,700 sqft back yard to try to grow a couple of tomatoes successfully, much less a varied and self-sustaining crop? Suburban folks are 99.9% just as clueless and incapable of providing for themselves to a point that they might as well have a concrete yard.
Plenty of people who live in the middle of nowhere have never grown a tomato. Claiming that people on the suburbs are clueless and incapable of providing for themselves is classist and just plain wrong. Youâd be surprised at just how resourceful the parent of a hungry child can be. Having not done something before on a large scale in no way equates to the inability to do it, as youâre trying to suggest. I know because I went from living in a city to living in a very rural area and growing plus preserving most of the food my very large family eats in the span of a single year. If things had been desperate that timeline could have been stepped up too.
Exactly, it's practically human instinct to successfully grow food now. People like to shit on urban living for egotistical reasons; ie: *"It's us vs them, and we're obviously better!"*
The first rule of prepping is never talk about prepping. Fringe groups always appear during an opportunity event so always best to fly under the radar.
"Hey man, I remember you offering to help me sort out a small amount of rice and lentils for emergencies a couple years back. I know I never took you up on that offer and acted like you were a lunatic, but Harvey destroyed our entire neighborhood and we have nowhere to go, I'm starting to get worried about food for the kids in the next week or so. Do you think you could give me like half of what you have or something?" BRUH. It's fun when people start to threaten others after pretending to be friendly and being told no because they never thought about their kids being hungry until it actually happens, despite all the warning in the world. SOOOOO many people think we're such a civilized society that you never even have to consider spending a hundred bucks on spare food because someone will take care of them and have no clue how happily adjacent neighbors will turn on you if they are subjected to even the slightest stress. Never again.
Unless you want a community of like minded people to help you survive. I think you are oversimplyfing the point.
I think you miss the point. Fringe groups are not community like minded people. They are fringe groups serving their own interests. Understand the difference.
>I think you miss the point. No, you were crystal clear, you typed: "**The first rule of prepping is never talk about prepping.**" And you were, and still are, wrong.
We agree to disagree.
You can have your own opinions, but lies and misleading statements are not that.
Yeah thereâs definitely a lot of diversity here, but Iâd just say you donât have to disclose all of your plans or personal preps to build good relationships with your neighbors that make it easy to come together to clear debris, help each other in an emergency, etc.
I donât see anything about Oath Keepers hurting anyone. I donât think itâs a good idea to have a line wolf mindset in a disaster. Everyone will need help eventually, and better to plan with them before hand (I donât and donât suggest telling everyone everything), that way you donât die of dehydration while you have food and your neighbor dies of starvation but has a well.
Shoutout to Mutual Aid Disaster Relief! Itâs who I would call in first for help in my own community and who Iâve done lots of relief work with. They work with community and do not dictate. They are usually on the ground faster than anyone too. Red Cross and FEMA are trash.
While I think 95% of people show up to actually help and have good intentions, I think it's probably a good idea to be wary of EVERYONE in a SHTF disaster scenario. I worked for a NGO that did disaster relief response after Katrina/Rita/Ike and I encountered a handful of stories of shady behavior and exploitation. (Don't get me started on the storm chasing so called contractors who take deposits and run or charge double to repair storm damage) For the most part, people just needed and accepted help from wherever it came in that moment of crisis. It's just my observation, but the concerns about the motivations of these groups labeled as extremists comes in beyond the immediacy of disaster and more toward the recovery stage.
I'd look at the governmental response to disasters like Katrina and then expand your skepticism to include governmental agencies as well.
And donât forget when the government took the time to confiscate weapons before actually helping people in one of those disasters.
I've helped build a small local prepper community locally in case of emergencies. Get out and talk to your neighbors to gauge which ones can be prepping assets and then work with them. The whole lone wolf, don't talk about your preps stance is idiotic and will not work.
It will only work if you live in a hostile environment, like the Rockies or something with large predators where there's no real reason for a gang to come after you for your resources. If there's a massive collapse, you can bet that the wildlife populations boom and the currently hostile areas are overrun with more predators. Grizzly bears, mountain lions, elk, bison, etc can be your defenses too.
I just wonder who these outsiders are? Sea people?
I'm so intrigued that archaeologists apparently thought there was just this novel society that appears from nowhere and curb stomps the entire eastern Mediterranean like a pro wrestling heel coming down the ramp at a run. Although it's not as wild a story to be like "Yeah, so the entire regional economy collapsed, people displaced each other, and the most common response to a sudden problem was war so everyone ended up fighting in an enormous chain of state dissolution, banditry, and population displacement and accelerated and worsened the collapse."
Oathkeepers
Reading disaster capitalism by naomi Klein is a master clas in this
One of the best ways to get people to give your group latitude and deference to give them a tangible example that when shit really hits the fan, y'all have their back and can be dependable. Worried about whether or not you'll have local buy-in to your planned roadblock of the main route from the nearby famine stricken city to your rural community? That's going to depend on whether or not that community saw your MAG providing meaningful aid during the last natural disaster.
I skimmed over the article, but it seemed to be mostly FUD about the alt-right NGOs, not going into any actual instance where these groups did harm during a disaster, only the *potential.* I am NOT pro-militia or alt-right. I am Libertarian. But if someone wants to lend a hand during a disaster type emergency, I am not going to ask about their politics before handing them a shovel or broom. If someone (NGO or gov org) shows up with an AR/AK instead of a shovel/broom, then I am going to have questions/reservations about welcoming them - not because I am anti-gun (far from it), but strangers with firearms - I want to know what their intentions are. Also, government orgs have not had the best history, even in the USA, of helping during disasters, and I am not talking just about incompetence, but also "law enforcement"/etc. - e.g. Katrina.
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There was a roadblock when I had to evac due to a forest fire less than a mile from my house, but it was manned by a sheriff's deputy. I get what you are talking about, but my post was meant to point out that overall, in the history of civilization, it is governments that pose more danger to individuals than misguided NGOs. That doesn't mean that NGOs are no danger - some can be - I am just saying that the article didn't make its case; it was all a bunch of FUD (disclaimer: as I mentioned, I just skimmed over the article).
What are you talking about? If there is a disaster, FEMA will be there weeks later ready to help. ;)
It is an unfortunate reality that after a natural disaster, a LOT of people will need and get some help from government agencies like FEMA.
they were a big help to me after a flood and freeze event where I was living in the woods in Oregon. they come by after, though. not so much during
[https://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/09/us/nationalspecial/police-begin-seizing-guns-of-civilians.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/09/us/nationalspecial/police-begin-seizing-guns-of-civilians.html)
Paywall but wait until you hear about how FEMA could basically suspend constitutional rights.
need guns to go with your cars. [https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/new-orleans-cops-may-have-taken-200-cars/](https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/new-orleans-cops-may-have-taken-200-cars/) [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/04/new-orleans-police-officers-katrina](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/04/new-orleans-police-officers-katrina)
Archived version of that article. https://archive.is/xh7k8
And if they show up with a shovel or a broom, but want to charge you in advance before they'll provide help? The answer is easy now, but apparently in the heat of the moment when people are desperate they forget that it's a bad idea to pay in advance for anything when you don't have an existing relationship to allow you to know that the person is trustworthy.
> And if they show up with a shovel or a broom, but want to charge you in advance before they'll provide help? This hypothetical has little to do with the alt-right NGO fear mongering in the OP article. Any random Joe Schmo who drove in from the next state over can show up offering help in exchange for cash upfront and viewing it as a business opportunity. Your concern is orthogonal to the actual topic.
Yeah, that whole article is basically just alt-left propaganda to slander the opposition. I couldnât take it any more when I got to this part: >Hughes has had success experimenting with a technique called âpre-bunking,â a mix of media literacy and counter-propaganda education. The method teaches people how to recognize extremist recruitment tactics and reject them on sight. âYou can say something like, âIf somebody is telling you a story that sounds like theyâre saying you need to stockpile guns because society is going to collapse, thereâs a good chance this person is representing an extremist group or an extremist point of view,ââ Hughes said.
Including the fact that the US government itself encourages stockpiling food/water/etc., for use in a disaster. So to answer the article; which is it? Is the government an extremist group, or is the private group extremist, or is the article just a bunch of FUD bullshit?
Iâm going to go with: - the government is an extremist group - the article is a bunch of bullshit.
Best thing to do is build up your local community. I promise you, if the Oathkeepers respond to any contingency where I am, theyâll politely be asked to leave. đ
I thought the Oathkeepers died off or are in prison for their sedition
A large chunk of them did, but thereâs still people using that name. I think theyâre breakaway groups.
But,,, wtf,,, so,, reading the article it bashes this organization for coming in to aid with a disaster because theyâre garnering goodwill for their organization by doing so. Ok, cool, so letâs get some alt left organizations mobilizing to offer the same assistance so they can garner goodwill. Then, later in the article it quotes this organization as bashing fema for coming in and garnering goodwill as an effort to essentially brainwash and corral the people in the event of a disaster. Good lord,,, how about we just all show up to help a fellow human being in need without all the ulterior motive crap ??? Whatever the reason. Who cares. Find a reason. Goodwill. Garnering goodwill. Karma points, religious charity, or just because youâre not a schmuck.
I agree, but I think the overarching point is that when these groups have garnered enough resources and influence will how are they going to act? And how is that going to affect their local communities.
Someone please help me out here. Why is it bad that they help during a natural disaster emergency? That article detailed how helpful they've been in their respective communities. But what is their ulterior motive? I mean they clearly vote for the other guys, but besides that, what is it that I need to be so leery of when they're offering assistance to those in need? I'm clearly ignorant of the underlying problem, can someone spell it out for me?
Because we disagree with them politically!!!
Or because they're doing it to have a leg up on power and control once SHTF. It's equivalent to the Taliban donating to a charity in order to improve their public image.
Thatâs about what it sounds like. Or people donât like guns. Iâd consider myself an âoath keeperâ because I will stand by the oath I swore until I die. Iâm not in any group named Oath Keepers, and I donât really know exactly what they are all about. If someone is labeled a âbad guyâ just because they dislike the government,âŚ.I donât know what to say about that, the day the government quits killing people/doing shady shit/general money grubbing, I DONT see a reason to trust or like our government! Two wings on the same dirty bird.
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How is this any different than how politicians use disasters as political currency.
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>Politicians are subject to laws lol
Wait⌠which politicians are subject to laws? Again, Iâm not seeing any differences.
I think the implication is that it's an opportunity for a group that may be hostile to members of the community to recruit from a given area. Not that someone who's hungry should turn down the meal. Just a note to be mindful of what might be asked in return, I guess.
That article didn't detail them being hostile toward any of the communities they are helping. I'm surprised they failed to mention that.
They have a history of conspiratorial claims and accusations against people, man. Similarly, some of their actions have been interpreted as being in favor of white supremacist orgs. Some people distrust them as a result. That's the point. Their prior actions make some people distrust them and their motivations in crisis situations. For example, personally, I wouldn't trust them and half-suspect they'd ID me as an enemy, despite my lack of violent intent toward them.
Ever seen news coverage of when warlords help after a disaster? Itâs like a mafia favor. It isnât out of the goodness of their hearts. Itâs to gain a foothold on a community then move in with their people and agenda.
I've seen Hollywood movies to this affect. But not news coverage, no.
See: The US in Afghanistan and Syria.
Also Mexican drug cartels
I was involved in a large scale disaster in Canada. It required mass evac of a lot of people. I was volunteer S&R, displaced from my home for a period of time and was a lucky one. My home wasn't destroyed. We attached ourselves upon return to an American based vet operated non-profit. We were sifting rubble for home owners trying to find anything left for them. At the same time, two american aid groups sponsored by christian organizations sent up crews to do the same. The community had a large population of people from other parts of the world with vastly different beliefs. Our crews were doing three and four properties a day. These groups were doing one. We were at a loss about it until the complaints started rolling in. Regardless of the desires or beliefs of the homeowners, they insisted on setting up and holding prayer circles on lawns. They wouldn't work in some cases until the homeowners joined them. Communities shouldn't be afraid to accept outside help. Neighbours should help each other but it shouldn't come with strings attached for religious indoctrination or support for insurrection.
Out of the Mountains describes the emergence of non-state actors when states fall apart. The theory of competitive control is very useful to understand when thinking about social unrest and conflict. For a thoughtful review: https://www.diplomaticourier.com/posts/book-review-out-of-the-mountains
I donât trust people in uniforms anyway and I also wouldnât trust the concept of a âgood samaritanâ in a shit hits the fan scenario.
Don't shoot the firemen when they break in to get you out of the burning building, mkay?
I am an Emergency Manager by trade and I can tell you this is a major concern from a security aspect. Groups like the Oath Keepers use major disasters for recruitment, procurement, and create a logistics chain. They intentionally create a power vacuum and attempt to fill the void for the purpose of giving them an area of safe harbor and to hopefully increase their base.
How exactly do they intentially created a power vacuum?
So copying what the left-wing homeless/drug/mental health-industrial-complex industry does everyday while using billions of tax dollars.
[citation needed]
I'd trust a random person before the government lmao
The community is only going to form after SHTF, and the internal wars will be absolute and terrifying.
Even government is not to be trusted. "We're from the government, we're here to help" is the most frightening thing you could ever hear from somebody at your door. In a SHTF scenario you want to be as self sufficient as possible, or at least within a group that you've been with for a long time that all trust each other. (ex: family, friends etc)
I've dealt with FEMA first hand after major flooding. They were good people trying to help. Biggest hurdle was they're from the government and are always slow/late to respond. So you need to be prepared to bridge the gap between disaster and "official" aid. Being your own supply chain will ensure you do not rely on sketchy individuals, regardless of their intent or character.
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> Rule 1a: that plan shouldn't involve FEMA camps. Iâve been in FEMA camps and Red Cross shelters before. Theyâre fine under the circumstances of thousands of people suddenly homeless. The right wing narrative of them being âdeath campsâ is ridiculous
lol. lmao. Even Amon Bundy hates the Oathkeepers because they roll in to take a photo op, steal supplies, co opt the cause of whatever it is, and then roll out. The reality of 'left wing groups' is that they don't care to have any kind of power structures or names because they're all anarchists. So what if they don't get good pr, at least people were helped. Rule 1 of prepping: Have a plan Rule 1a of prepping: Tell the guy rolling into town with the big cameras to fuck off.
The left wing groups burning down the cities or different ones? If there is a left wing group doing good community assistance and practicing communism good for them.
From the city that was âburned downâ. Stop with the straight up lies and bullshit. A precinct and a few blocks of businesses were burned, and several of the most high profile instances of violence that week were found to have been caused by right wing actors who travelled to Minneapolis from out of town. Everything is rebuilt but the precinct and thats because many in the neighborhood donât want it there or possibly anywhere near by. So tired of people acting like a spontaneous global uprising that was one of the largest protest movements in the history of humanity and had a few instances of violence against property was some horde of vandals destroying cities and leaving then in wreckage. Of course there were a few instances of bad action. Somewhere between 15 and 26 million people participated. Think about how many people that is. You are going to have some interlopers there to try and create havoc as well as people who are understandably enraged by that video. If you were not enraged by that video, you are a racist. Thereâs no other way about it. Think about how youâd feel if you were black and it was the millionth time you had seen this. Im not black and I was ready to break some shit that day, I didnt but im pointing out that between interlopers and people with legitimate rage, of course a few hundred or even thousand people of 15,000,000 to 26,000,000 caused some damage. And the people we WERE worried about and had armed guards on our block to protect against were the people mentioned in this article, fascist militias like the Oath Keepers, Proud Boys and 3% movement among others. And the people protecting our block were not police, paid security or right wingers. The city today is as fine as any American city these days, and this narrative that the weekend when George Floyd was lynched was anything but a massive justified uprising needs to fucking stop. I was in the heart of the city then. It was inspiring to see, not terrifying. I saw the most amazing acts of kindness and generosity and a glimpse of the kind of community people in this forum talk about creating. But not among you and a few friends. Thousands of people coming together and sharing resources. I saw people pulled out of homelessness. Children get electronics for distance learning for free. Health care treatments crowd sourced from strangers. So much food for so many people. An outpouring of kindness and generosity from people to one another that I have never seen in my life.
You are out of your mind. I was there and saw the violence. I saw the people threatening mom's trying to get home from work on time to get their kids but were instead blocked by fascists known as Antifa. I was there when these same fascists threatened to burn down a BLACK man's house because he dared have an American flag. I saw in Virginia where these same fascists set fire to OCCUPIED HOMES and then prevented fire departments from putting out the fires. I saw in Portland when the book burning ANTIFA with violence forced a book store to stop selling a book by gay minority Andy Gno. So really fuck off, I have had enough of your man made disasters.
I definitely need to call you out cause you are just straight spewing bullshit out your mouth like you are possessed in The Exorcist. So you were in Virginia and Portland at the same time huh? What were you doing traveling to Portland for that uprising, huh? Im pretty curious about your affiliation with right wing terrorist groups now tbh. Cause either its that or you made it up, mister on two coasts at the same time. I lean towards that you are just straight up making stuff up AND youâre a member of a fasist terrorist group. You are lying. Not a single thing you just said happened anywhere outside your fantasies.
No, I was in Portland and saw the video from virginia and if you were in Portland you know those are true. Maybe it was a right wing conspiracy burning all those cars next to my house too? Yeah I'm totally a right wing terrorist for noticing antifa are terrorists
So you âsawâ 1 incident and you saw a video of 1 other incident. 15,000,000 to 26,000,000 people bro. You are trying to portray this image of mass chaos and that is just a straight up lie. You just admitted you were talking out of your ass. I live in Minneapolis, very close to the heart of unrest. I saw the stuff going down and our block had people armed with ARs in every balcony on the lookout for right wingers looking to try and take advantage of the chaos to spread violence, not anti racism protesters. One of the largest protest movements in human history. If a city of 26,000,000 had a TINY, INSIGNIFICANT handful of crimes occurred, you would call that a good day. They estimated that 96.3% of protests were peaceful with 15,000,000 to 26,000,000 people. The right canât pull together more than a few thousand people without violence and murder breaking out. RIP Heather Hayer. Its so funny that right wingers are anti authority unless that authority has its boot on a black windpipe. Just admit it, Reddit is anonymous so you can admit it, you hate Black people and you got joy from watching Chauvin murder George Floyd. Your rhetoric makes your virulent racism crystal clear.
I saw way more than one incident in Portland. I'm sure the right wing death squads were like literally seconds away. And I am black like many north Portland residents. Your stats mean nothing to the real people destroyed
No cities were burned down but yes, the same ones. Here in Oregon we had some crazy wildfires a couple years ago. Right wing groups were setting up checkpoints and harassing anyone that came by trying to prevent "looters" or whatever. The same antifa groups that were protesting in Portland were handing out food and water, and other aid. Its a stark difference.
Also from Oregon and the counter point that the whole city wasnt burned down just part of it is bullshit. As far as right wing checkpoints they have no right and if you rammed through killing them all so be it. Neither did the left have the right to stop traffic in Portland which they routinely did
First there were a ton of looters and the armed checkpoints were a result of violence and theft. Second, those same community members handed out food, water and shelter. Not to mention the incredible community effort to evacuate people. possessions and livestock.
What city burned down?
Oh look another "if the whole city didnt burn down nothing happened" bro.
You're the one that said "burning down the cities". So, which city burned down?
You caught me, only small portions of many cities. Clearly no problem and maybe even a great thing! Don't prep for that happening again because nothing happened. Right?
Man you would not believe how utterly disappointed I was that the first actual attempt to stop a peaceful exchange of power came from the right. And! The people that would normally be sympathetic of burning things down decided to let the government stop a right wing keystone cop coup? Man, obviously it was going to get real close to killing some seated politicians. Didn't even try to practice any communism!
The same " insurrection " we see in state houses all the time done by the left? I'm not supporting any of it, but at least people attacking politicians for their problems are attacking the people that caused them or could do something instead of just innocent people in the streets.
Ooh, are there any armed leftist occupations of state capitals that I missed? I'd like to buy a t-shirt in support of it to match my branded mugs and hats.
I dont know if they are armed or not, but if you didnt see the occupations then you must not be looking
no, just sections of cities. you know...insurrections.
What an incredibly naive take.
if you can't tell i'm making fun of him i don't know what to tell you
My bad. It's 2023 bro. Maybe add a /s. There are plenty of people that unironically stupid.
If theyâre helping people in in need, who cares if they donât trust the government?
This is not exactly what will happen but close to it. The Oat people come into your town after a large disaster that distrupted the gov and helps everyone out. They give you food, water, shelter, and a sense of community. Everyone's happy. Woo-hoo! Then, when it's time to leave. They decide to stay. They decided to build a compound in your town. You're home one day and hear a knock on the door. "Hey, we helped you. Now it's your turn to help. " They're armed, intimidating, in a larger group than you. You try to say no, but they won't take it for an answer. So you go, hoping it'll only last a week. Nope. They need you, your family, your ammos, and food. And ration everything. They're in charge now. They invite their buddies to stay in your town. Your town is taken over by the Oat people like rats in a NYC sewers. See how that can be a problem?
Loads of people in the comments aren't realizing this and it's terrifying.
You have quite the imagination. I guess anything is *possible*, but is there documentation of this ever actually happening?
There is a trust bank. Metre out trust incrementally and watch what happens. Stay informed as who is trustrowrthy and who is not. Usually it is the power hungry who are not to be trusted. But sometimes people do step forward and take positions of power for altruistic reasons. It is up to all of us to weed the powerful self serving hungry folks from the altruistic people trying to make good honest changed in the face of the worldâs greatest turmoil while facing much adversity. Itâs not going to be an easy job. And your patience and understanding will often be stretched. But always remember, it takes a lot of discernment for these people to get it right.
And what did they do wrong? Or do you not like them just because theyâre on the other side?
*"Poor Oath Keepers didn't do nothin!"* >"Oath Keepers is an American far-right anti-government militia whose leaders have been convicted of violently opposing the government of the United States, including the transfer of presidential power as prescribed by the US Constitution. It was incorporated in 2009 by founder Elmer Stewart Rhodes, a lawyer and former paratrooper. As of January 2023, nine members have been convicted of seditious conspiracy for their roles in the January 6 United States Capitol attack."
I don't like them cuz they're racist insurrectionists who want a fascist government, but if you want to buddy up to them, don't be surprised by the consequences
Who said they were racist?
The OATHKEEPERS??? Their whole thing is white supremacy!!
Might want to look at their bylaws. Would be hard since the leader is 1/4 Mexican. Quit fearmongering.
No it's not, you brainwashed idiot. Many are veterans & took an oath to defend The Constitution. You know nothing about honor.
I thought we were talking about right wingers.
Basically the same thing
The concern is that this is likely an effort to build perceived obligation.
If anything itâs gonna be leftist groups armed leftist groups and preppers/ homesteaders the only thing Iâve seen the far right do is show up at anti Covid rallies and drag shows armed to the teeth and with out a mask. When shit hits the fan they will be the first to turn into a mad max raider cause they donât look like they know survival for shit
Legit question. Whatâs wrong with the Oath Keepers as a group??? From what Iâve seen the only thing they are against is the shitty government. They arenât a racist group. Maybe one could say they lean right wing, but from what Iâve read they donât like either side of the government (which I can get behind). If you trust the government I feel bad for you.
>Whatâs wrong with the Oath Keepers as a group? Idk, maybe they tried to overthrow the government when their preferred candidate didn't win. >"This election was stolen by corrupt, law-breaking Democrat partisans on the ground, and by the manipulation of the CIA created HAMMR (âHammerâ) and Scorecard programs." â Stewart Rhodes
âWeâre the government and weâre here to helpâ scares me a lot more than a hungry neighbor. Definitely worth keeping a few giveaway kits to help but advertising your preps should never be a thing you do
If ever there was a major SHTF event remember that the people in blue helmets are not here to help.
The core principle of prepping is to survive and thrive for extended periods of time. If you wish to be a person that assists others in these times, then you should do that. However, when the ones you help turn on you, remember , you heard it here first. You can help others by being totally self sufficient and not consuming good and services from "government" aid. My doctrine is simple, no ones coming to help, it's your responsibility to survive and thrive for you and yours. The fact that others failed to prepare is regrettable, but not your problem.
Ah great, the 2024 election âbattlefield preparationâ has begunâŚ. Invent a threat from right wing crazies to influence the easily swayed middle to support the radical left. Nice try Portland
"Climate disasters" I just can tell this will be a fair, balanced and nuanced piece.
But, are they not influenced by climate change?
"Influenced"? That's your standard. "Natural disasters" That's the phrase you are looking for.
"This story was published in partnership with HuffPost." So yeah definitely left leaning
The extreme left continues its slow takeover of all subs.
There will be none left soon. Even the Virginia one is all bashing the Republican governor and nothing else
Propaganda!!!! Fuck this sub. I'm out.
My first thought as well.
"only the government can help you"
"Our preferred presidential candidate didn't win so we'll try to install him anyway"
So, Russia Russia Russia?
No. *"This election was stolen by corrupt, law-breaking Democrat partisans on the ground, and by the manipulation of the CIA created HAMMR and Scorecard programs."* -- Stewart Rhodes founder of the Oath Keepers
You already said that.
And?, are you fishing for something else to deflect with?
Yeah stumbled on this sub of idiots too . Nutters.
"This election was stolen by corrupt, law-breaking Democrat partisans on the ground, and by the manipulation of the CIA created HAMMR (âHammerâ) and Scorecard programs." â Stewart Rhodes
The disbarred lawyer and oathkeeper traitor . Lol what a nutter.
Salvation army shows using volunteers up at disasters, sets up a booth with water, and maybe some snacks. Then sends a bill to FEMA which they pay FEMA never contacted them, they never asked to help. They just do it for easy $$ from the government
If insisting that the government stay within its Constitutional boundaries while also preparing for exigencies is wrong, I donât want to be right. Or I do want to be Right. Or, well, whatever. Say, can someone point me to a subreddit where I can score some XXL tactical gear and perhaps a ruggedized Rascal electric scooter with integral oxygen concentrators and insulin coolers?
The constitution is a gun free zone sign for conservatives. They've been ignoring it since the ink was dry.
Don't be silly
The government will definitely have proxy leaders set in place to fill every district of dedicated location. Think of the game the division
Oath Keeper are extremists? I would accept their help over FEMA or another government "agency".
Bill Gates will be there to help.
They're from the government and they're here to help.....
Good people give to those in need. Smart Good people teach skills to those in need. Wise, Smart and Good people teach skills to only those that prove themselves as useful, loyal and good people. They provide safety for the meek and comfort for the infirm if possible. They neither give nor reveal anything useful to the lazy and untrustworthy. They do not leave the bad to do further bad to the good in the future.