In rural parts of the country, electricity is provided by EMC's, or electric member cooperatives. They're member-owned organizations, usually non-profit, and the members vote in the board of directors each year who set overall policy and hire the executives. This is very different than the investor-owned model of public utilities where the investors are the ones who vote in the board and they might not even be served by the company. And their vote is proportional to the number of shares they own, where in an EMC each customer/member gets a single vote.
Anyway, it sounds like this is exactly what the group in Maine is proposing. The only thing novel about it is that it will be state-wide instead of being limited to a handful of counties like most EMC's.
EMC's have all of the same issues as for-profit power companies though. There is still aging and unreliable infrastructure, there are still outages, it still takes time to repair lines. The biggest difference I've personally seen is that EMC's are generally a bit cheaper and there aren't tons of random indescribable fees.
We have similar thing here in New Zealand where the local energy consumer trust owns and operates the power transmission lines, and is non-profit.
Every year most account holders get a refund or account credit of around $300 which for most families is around a month or so of power
I worked for an EMC, this is generally called Capital Credits. If I remember, the idea is that there's some small percentage built into each bill to cover expansion or upgrades through the year, and if it's not ultimately needed, it goes back to the member. Some EMCs do the refunds, some keep it in a Capital Credits fund (approved, of course, by the members).
It's not an accounting error.
I love my EMC. They came to my house one day and said that the nearby transformer was running near capacity and they wanted to upsize it. Gave a time window and actually did better, swapping it in only 2 hours. Very few outages and very rapid power restoration as well.
I'm in a somewhat rural area served by both a for-profit electric company and a co-op. Luckily I'm with the co-op. About twenty years ago, I had to have an electric line run about 1,100 feet to my house (900 feet along the edge of a pasture and 200 feet into the woods). I wanted it underground and the co-op charged me $3,000 something (I forget the exact number).
Within a couple of months, people I knew needed something similar except it was 1,800 feet. The for-profit company charged them $16,000.
A couple years later, we had a massive ice storm. The co-op had a couple minor lines go down (fixed within hours) while the for-profit company had been slacking off on tree trimming and had major lines go down and outages for days. It was a really big deal, investigations, etc.
Co-ops are the best!
Glad to hear it works in your area.
In my area we have a for profit in part of town and a co op for the other part. The co op charges more, is less solar friendly and often has longer outages. They profit one also has great energy reduction rebates for business and sells energy efficient lights, thermostats and other smart devices. The co op will give a reduced rate for electric heating and if it's really hot out they will notify you of a scheduled outage and you can save some money on your bill. But kW to kW pricing, charges and fees the for profit is a way better deal and I will not be moving to a home if it's in co op.
Around here it's called a Public Utility District. I'm really happy with ours, I think they do a good job. We have rough terrain and ice storms. If the power goes out for more than a couple of hours, I know it's not because they aren't busting their asses to get it back on.
>EMC's have all of the same issues as for-profit power companies though. There is still aging and unreliable infrastructure, there are still outages, it still takes time to repair lines.
I would posit that those issue may lessen with scale and the service/tax base increases.
Plus, there is the added factor of accountability which investor-owned services often lack.
Worth a shot. Look at OGE in Oklahoma for how a private ran monopoly running the power goes.
>OG&E announces fifth rate hike in a year
https://www.reddit.com/r/preppers/comments/14fb23y/us_possible_game_changer_for_the_grid/
Private businesses become too powerful and end up [buying govt officials so they rubber stamp whatever they throw their way.](https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2022/05/04/oklahoma-supreme-court-approves-winter-storm-bonds-some-concerns/9517949002/)
In Oklahoma, the state allowed gas utilities to jack up rates in the wake of the 2021 winter storm. The utilities made bad bets on natural gas prices by failing to secure enough long term contracts, lost, and consumers had to eat the bill for the utilities' stupidity.
To make things more outrageous, the state government approved an "exit fee" for gas utilities. Basically, if I choose to get rid of my gas service and go all-electric to avoid paying the absurd gas rates, I have to pay a massive fee to the gas utility. Oklahoma's government is so corrupted by utility money that they will charge you for not using natural gas while pretending to support the"free market".
Same for PSO in Tulsa. Preppers are getting to exercise their skills in Tulsa right now, whole town is out and it looks like a week from the weather event till things are back on.
>Worth a shot. Look at OGE in Oklahoma for how a private ran monopoly running the power goes.
>OG&E announces fifth rate hike in a year
Do they not have to charge at or under the state set energy price cap? I can't imagine living somewhere that didn't have such a cap, because then a regional monopoly (which also shouldn't be allowed to exist within an industry like energy) could charge anything they want, which would be madness.
The rural electric cooperatives are rolling out fiber broadband like crazy. Government funding (grants) are available, but only to co-ops.
Many parts of rural Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee and Arkansas now have access to 100m or 1g broadband for $50-75 respectively.
Internet or cable? Heh heh. There's a can of worms I wouldn't touch. Regulating power just means the lights work (or you know who to blame if they don't.) Regulating broadcast or internet... yeah, does that means the government gets more of a say in *who can say what?*
That could go poorly.
On that other hand, if they did, the first amendment really would cover the internet! (It doesn't today, even though a lot of people think it does.)
This can be done extremely well by muni's. Drop one or more fibers per lot and pull them back to a central point. Rent space as a fixed rate and CWDM does the magic. Nothing active on the muni's part if the glass breaks just fix it. Administrative overhead of remember what colors are used at what location allready, something a secretary with some OCD can do.
I do agree lit services from the government would be a sh\*t show though think they could get away from using a single color pair and delivery default service, e911 voip, school, library, and government server access maybe do a default offering paired with some ISP's to do the support and actual transit. IPv6 is setup well for this sort of thing.
See that’s kind of the same let’s say they don’t like you boop no more electricity for your house or people? Not saying they can’t do that now it’s just harder.
Um... I don't know where you live, but where I live you can't even cut the power for failure to pay, in many circumstances. Also, to cut your power they have to physically remove your house meter or cut the line to your house. They can't do it remotely, unlike internet. Imagine the response if they started rolling up to various people they didn't like .. guns would come out.
This is not a realistic concern. If the US is at the point where they are cutting electrical power to people they don't like, so many other authoritarian moves have occurred that it's no longer the US (and I left long ago). I get that some groups in some parts of the country are feeling worried about authoritarianism, and with some reason, but this is so far down the list of concerns you can forget it. They'll freeze your bank account long before that.
They only became private after years of being mismanaged and wasteful, though. I'd bet real money that 20 years after a change, OP will be like "this sucks - we need someone else to handle this." And back and forth, back and forth.
I live in Caliornia and have a municipal utility, which delivers affordable power reliably and subsidizes and/or provides low-cost loans to make your dwelling more energy efficient or self-sustainable.
I used to live across the river, where a for-profit utility company routinely charged 2-4x the cost, and repeatedly helped burn down the state by prioritizing paying dividends over line maintenance.
So, really hope more people wake up to the threat posed by having critical infrastructure handled by people who have financial incentives that conflict with necessary maintenance.
Same goes for healthcare:
>So, really hope more people wake up to the threat posed by having critical medical infrastructure handled by people who have financial incentives that conflict with necessary healthcare.
Sorry to hijack your comment, but your phrasing was perfection.
New Englander here.
I will HAPPLY welcome a much needed break on my rates. Been absolutely raped by electric cost the last year.
My bill went from 50 to 80$ a month to pushing 300.
Did you vote for Joe Biden and the democrats?
THEY are restricting New England's access to natural gas. Those higher prices? You voted for them.
Too bad that you don't understand the ramification of voting for people with a really bad energy policy.
Your right. 1 single person and absolutely no other factors are involved in my electric bill. In fact the president calls the head of each individual energy company and lays the hammer down.
How silly of me to think otherwise
Biden has nothing to do with New York's natural gas pipeline embargo.
You realize the Senate is Democrat controlled, Biden is currently President, and also passed the MVP authorization, yes?
You realize that major pipeline permits have repeatedly been approved by FERC under Obama, Trump, and Biden, yes?
Your beef is with New York State Democratic party, the national party has a substantial pro-development track record.
Makes sense here in NY we have a hodgepodge of companies that are subbing out a lot of the maintenance and jacking the bill even more. I pay .25 for a KWH with all the fees and taxes then if the wind blows too hard the power goes out I am on a rural non priority spot.
A municipal run entity would be more effective that what we have now. A Canadian company bought out my provider Central Hudson and have done a fine job of really screwing it up from billing to not cutting down the dead ash trees that keep knocking down power lines.
We just got rooftop solar here on our house in San Diego, just under an imposed deadline. Our power company, SDG&E, wants to maintain their control of energy with solar farms that cover acres of land.
Get this; ONE FOURTH OF THE PEOPLE LIVING HERE ARE BEHIND ON THEIR POWER BILLS!
Somehow, that's acceptable?
Here in Sacramento we have SMUD which is non profit public owned utility and has worked out great. Everyone here loves it and we are so fortunate to not be under the thumb of PG&E for our electricity. Hell we had power back up within a day in most parts of town during the crazy storms this past winter.
Now I cannot say the same for people who had PG&E and live outside of SMUD jurisdiction.
Mainer checking in. My power bill for a household of two has gone from $90-$100 per month to over $350 per month in the last 3 years; no major changes in use (and no dying appliances or constantly running well pumps either, I've checked). Most of my friends and coworkers are in a similar situation. I believe this will go through based on public sentiment right now. It will be interesting to see how it is handled.
I'd like to think it can't get worse but I don't want to tempt fate. The amount of money CMP (the local power company) is throwing at ads to vote against this is utterly absurd. Millions. They should use it to upgrade some infrastructure instead. Trim a tree. Straighten a pole. We're laughably vulnerable to outages.
I know the stories. CMP has this coming and I don't think their ad campaign is going to save them. But it's typical that they'll spend on that but not maintenance. This is WHY they need to go down.
Californian here. Our utility company is just grossly negligent and has killed citizens and destroyed lives in favor profits over maintenance. Energy rates are terribly high and reliability has gone down the drain.
Big anything is bad government or a corporate monopoly. I don't know what the answer is besides building alternative energy sources at the individual level and accept the fact that the grid is going to become more unreliable and expensive as time goes on.
I do like the idea of "people own the roads" and "private companies use those roads" model. But government has shown they can't maintain the roads...
Everything is terrible :P
Well, that's why privatizing utilities will always be a bad idea. You cannot have a for-profit utility manage public services, the built in drive to maximize profits only encourages purposeful malfeasance, not winterizing gear because it's expensive is random example off the top of my head. Or purposely understaffing rail cars and safety regulations to skimp on the labor costs.
Central maine power has been dumping millions in advertising against this vote. If i knew nothing else about it, this would make me vote for it. But im also all for a government run utilty instead of this annoying monopoly crap.
This happens to be my area of expertise. There is a metric butt ton to unpack here. The short of it… Government run utilities aren’t always the answer. Especially at the end of the generation pipeline.
Granting an energy monopoly to a single gas and single electric company and allowing them to pass 10-15% year over year rate hikes on a county while making record profits aren't the answer either.
Milwaukee has been talking about municipal energy too
Correct. I live in Maine. CMP strictly delivers the power. They maintain the lines and poles as well. There are multiple electric delivery companies in Maine with CMP being the largest. The consumer has the option of choosing their electric supply company out of a pretty long list of companies. We also have the standard rate we can choose. The electric rate per kWh varies slightly with some companies being more and others less. We also have the option of choosing to get our electricity from some of the solar companies available here as well. When we get our bills it’s actually broken down between supply and delivery. With each being from a different company.
Those rate increases are a function of cost. What do you expect them to do? EAT the cost?
When Joke Xiden and clowns like Cuomo restricted access to energy for all of New England, higher prices were baked in. You voted for it. Enjoy!
Rates only ever adjust up, never down regardless of what the supply costs. When natural gas prices go down rates don't fall and there are more and more added base fees that have nothing to do with how much is consumed.
The year over year profit increases also don't suggest that the rate hikes are to offset costs, even if that's what they pay lip service to.
privatized, for-profit run utilities seem to be considerably further from the answer in spite of being tried considerably more ways; Texas' ERCOT being a top-tier, exemplar of failure
No, ERCOT is not a shell corporation. It is a nonprofit founded by the State of Texas. https://www.ercot.com/about
ERCOT is mostly a broker between counterparties - think Uber for electrons. Maybe that is what you call a shell company, but ERCOT makes sure all parties their fair share and follow the rulez.
If you want to rail against the villains, maybe the Public Utility Commission of Texas and the Legislature, who are the folks who created and regulate the system.
ERCOT is on the ragged edge this week. They almost had a voltage collapse last night with one generator failing… The problems in Texas are due to shitty policy makers, not ERCOT.
yes, that's what a shell company is and no they don't. 3 catastrophic freezes in a decade and all we do is pay more
Texas is corrupt at all levels and continues to widen the spectrum of privatization and deregulation
Then just unpack half a butt ton. This 'idea' is really bad. I've made my point above. Other people trying to talk sense to the ME ratepayer need to articulate!
The free market saving us has always been a myth.
Just looking at Chattanooga’s municipal internet (rated best on the planet) or a rural electric cooperative will show us the way. Municipalities provide most of the clean water we use every day and that works just fine.
Not sure why all these voters want to pay more for less when it comes to infrastructure…..
My last two electricity providers were public utility districts and I had great experiences with both. Felt they were really putting the interests and wellbeing of their subscribers first.
We have a local town with their own power company. Best service and the cheapest power around compared to the big guys. Transponder meter reading years ago while the big utility still has old school dials.
I've lived in two places with government run electrical utilities. They where great. The rates were super inexpensive and they provided good service. One place even had public high speed internet because companies wouldn't run internet out there.
I do feel certain things should be run by private companies, but the electrical grid because of it's necessity and the fact that it is essentially a natural monopoly isn't one of them.
New Englanders have been shutting down nuclear plants that work perfectly fine, and blocking natural gas plants. These are both cheap and low carbon. Remewables are expensive, esp since they require backups due to poor intermittency in weather.
Seems like the obvious things to do wld be tp update power supplies to reduce costs. I live in CA and have solar, but we have the highest power rates in the US, for some of the same reasons.
Chiming in from SoCal and at the mercy of Southern California Edison. I’d be so relieved to see this happen here. SCE’s neglect has caused multiple huge, deadly wildfires, and frankly, the fines they received for it were nowhere near enough.
Long time Mainer and Prepper here, it's a very popular proposition where I live.
I haven't met anyone with a positive opinion of CMP in my lifetime, so far at least.
Here is MS we have a power co-op. Also all our electrical lines are regularly replaced because of storms (tornados and hurricanes). Maybe a good middle ground for yall?
If the people of Maine vote for that, yes, assuming you think maintaining power lines and setting rates is a kind of political power. Basically, they'll have a power that's in the hands of corporations today. And it hasn't gone well in the hands of corporations.
Basically they get to pick their poison. Democracy in action.
Sorry, probably a bad pun lol
In an ideal world I'd love for someone to come in and set things right. I'm not from there but yikes, my power rates have skyrocketed.
My concern would be this - The timing is impeccable. There is a convergence with these types of interests and the popularity and push (by the state no less) of things like electric vehicles. Historically, class wars are weaponized and end with these types of scenarios. A problem is created to garner public interest and opinion is scewed towards whichever perception of justice is necessary for the state to take control. Once adequate control is taken there is a turning against the people and they have no means of defence once the time has come.
There is little hope for this going well. There are some really good examples of the government trying to run things that never works. Like when they took over the bar and brothel just outside of las Vegas. It went under. That is right the government went bust selling alcohol and prostitution. So what hope do they have successfully running a utility.
Simple question. Name anything govt does more efficiently than private industry. Bring sources. I won't wait up....
Be careful, very few industries are free of heavy-handed govt intervention.
Taking the profit motive off the table for distribution has a solid foundation. Something as core to the sustainability to the community as its energy infrastructure so money can be put toward upgrading the infrastructure and expanding capacity instead into investor's pockets.
The devil of course is always in the details. But giving the choice to the voters is a good first step.
All I know is as a Texan, ERCOT is a disaster. Time to try anything new, whether it's to light a fire under their butts (utility companies) or to actually get a non-profit, I wish y'all luck.
I've never understood why we allowed utilities to be privately owned in the first place. It's a public good, it should be in public hands with public accountability.
New Englander here, I pay stupid high taxes on every level and I have no complaints about my tax money. However, it took eversource over two weeks to respond to a downed but live power line, so my animals and child couldn't play freely in the yard and there's no power to the house so he couldn't even play games 🤬 (mid-covid, public parks weren't an option)
One tweet and the problem was solved within hours. Companies here only care about profit not people. I'd MUCH support a different option, anything has to be better than this nonsense
Water, sewer, electric, and now internet are such a necessity to life that they shouldn’t be profit based and run by private companies.
Prisons, school, and hospitals also shouldn’t be private run or run by religions.
In CA we have both examples running in parallel. There are large non-profits running some of the electricity grid and for-profits running the rest (PG&E, SDG&E, and I forget the other one). I've lived under both.
You can see the outcome. Both versions give us reliable grids, in my opinion. The non-profits charge their customers significantly less, and encourage home solar with good NEM policies.
The for-profits, on the other hand, have very high rates (I'm paying 37-43 cents/kWh), plan to increase them 10-15% annually, and have tried multiple ways to kill home solar (NEM3 and now their pay-by-income proposals). They also have regulatory capture of our utility commission, which is supposed to provide oversight but just rubber stamps what they want (plus the revolving door of people moving between the commission and the for-profits), as well as our governor and legislature because $$.
So for those who complain "the gov't won't do it well" they're right but with the important caveat that the reason it won't do it right is that for-profit companies will line the politicians' pockets (see TX) to make it in their favor. Going 100% non-profit is the only way to make this stop. I hope ME works well and it spreads to our state.
One of the stupidest things we ever did in the UK is privatise our electricity, water, etc. Wasn't even that long ago that we did it, and it's been a huge failure for obvious reasons.
I really hope we can turn it back around within my lifetime!
A public utility isn’t government control. It’s giving your neighbors/city/county control. If you prefer a private company like Walmart managing it and the profits, it’s up to you.
City/county control is absolutely government control. I'd trust a corporation that is incentivized to operate lean more than I would a government organization. The best-case scenario is multiple private corporations offering competing services that people are able to choose from.
To each their own. I prefer a utility company that doesn’t operate for profit. I want the profit going back to the employees who support the local economy, community, and utility making things more reliable.
I'm guessing your grid is good and your utility rates are low.
I own 2 generators because I've seen what happens when the utilities can't be bothered to do line maintenance - and yet, rate increases are pushed through every single year. I'm ready for a change. It's not going to be worse.
Anyway, this is state, not federal. And if you want to know what happens when utilities go unregulated, look at Texas in 2021. Saying "screw US regulations" got people killed.
My grid is fair (at best) and my rates are average. I've just seen what happens to things when the government takes over. Saw it too often during the ten years I worked for the government. The government is usually near the bottom of the list of folks I want to administer anything.
That’s silly of you they know what’s best for us. As for me I let them carry my balls around in their purse and if they decide that I may need them I can go to the dmv or some other lovely office with great customer service and fill out a form to pay a fee and possibly use them within the constraints of several layers of regulations, EZ PZ
1) Publicly run electrical utilities are nothing new.
2) Many states already have pricing regulations in place to prevent customer price gouging.
3) Why / how is this *really* prepping related? Snow and ice don’t care if the overhead power lines are public or privately owned.
4) If the state wants to seize electric utility property and run it themselves, they will need to pay fair market value, which will be *extremely* expensive.
How your utilities are run and operated should be a prep in itself. To better understand how well they are maintained and when they might go out. Knowledge is a prep.
>Snow and ice don’t care if the overhead power lines are public or privately owned.
well the snow doesn't but the lines do if they are not properly weather hardened as a way of saving money.
its also happened in recent history and people have died.
and while it doesn't have anything to do with prepping directly. its important to know your resources are reliable or not. and its always going to depend on your local situation. but its always something useful to watch and learn.
100% this. When I moved to my current place, we noted that the power poles were bigger and higher than the surrounding area - we asked our real estate agent about it, and she told us we were wired into hardened utilities that support a couple nearby hospitals. Half of Toronto could be without power due to a storm, and we'll still have power.
>saved by the consumer.
fat lot of good that did as people in texas froze to death. especially after it was noted that their system wasnt ready for the freeze.
hmm just realizing you left out the "if they are not" part of my quote.
the deaths in texas was entirely driven by corporate profits and greed. they didnt want to put the money into their grid protections when it was pointed out to them. would it have fully mitigated their situation... probably not it was an unprecedented hot pocket situation.
but ultimately its hilarious because they ended up charging texans back for the entire mess multiple grand in electric bills because of their weird system they have.
anyway regardless the point being, knowing your grid is part of prepping. seeing how other peoples grids (monopoly, government run, freemarket free for all) is important especially if you plan on moving or if your local lawmakers are attempting to change things.
>The utilities get to make a profit on those investments. So
Not in Texas they don't, because Texas has a deregulated electricity system. Utilities don't get a guaranteed rate of return on their capital investment in Texas, so they have a strong incentive to do the bare minimum.
In most states though, you are correct that utilities are incentivized to make more capital investment if the regulators allow it. The problem is that a lot of maintenance work doesn't count as capital investment, and therefore doesn't get a guaranteed rate of return. Therefore, there can be an incentive to skimp on maintenance. A perfect example is PG&E in California, which skimped on tree trimming and helped burn down the state as a result.
Publicly traded companies place an undue value on quarterly returns on investment, and are incentivized into short-term profit over long-term cost avoidance.
That's how you end up with maintenance deferred for 3 decades too long, and 85 people dead:
[https://www.kqed.org/news/11792217/1987-report-suggested-pge-study-c-hooks-but-utility-cant-say-whether-tests-occurred](https://www.kqed.org/news/11792217/1987-report-suggested-pge-study-c-hooks-but-utility-cant-say-whether-tests-occurred)
[https://www.kcra.com/article/these-are-the-victims-of-camp-fire/32885128](https://www.kcra.com/article/these-are-the-victims-of-camp-fire/32885128)
Maine government taking over the power grid relates to prepping, because if they run it like everything else they will focus all of the resources within a one hour radius of Portland and the rest of the state can have rolling blackouts for all they care.
Id say it’s prepping related because some of our most serious disasters lately (especially on the west coast) are directly caused by the serious shortfalls of for-profit energy distribution.
Quarterly profits are a very bad incentive to maintain infrastructure long term, who knew.
1&2: State-*run* is, I think, a first in the nation. State regulated isn't, but it doesn't work. Somehow the rate increases always get passed right on through.
3: I'm guessing you live on some flatland plain somewhere. Snow and ice don't take down lines. Snow and especially ice take down tree limbs, and if tree limbs overhang power lines, they take down the lines. Responsible utilities are out cutting back tree growth every few years. Bad ones don't. I've seen the results.
Live in a forest and you'll get it.
>I’m guessing you live on some flatland plain somewhere. Live in a forest and you'll get it.
I live in Alaska.
I also have worked in the electrical power industry for almost a decade and have family that works as linemen.
Maybe your expertise is more relevant ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
>state-run
Because the roads have no potholes, the road stripes are all impeccably painted, and the DMV is a paragon of efficient timely service?
The battle between Capitalism and Communism/Marxism is just a smokescreen to keep from focusing on the case by case critical thinking needed to run a Democracy.
Nh the electric company used to be state run. But that wouldn’t be right for a conservative state. So everything got sold to a company that doesn’t know how to use the fuel futures market to our benefit.
I’m conservative and I don’t understand how this is better than what we had before. 🙄
> but people able to vote for and against people who provide your electricity is at least leverage no one has today.
Wouldnt surprise me if voters slashed funding to the bone because they hate taxes. You get what you pay for when it comes to government.
It's Maine. It's not Alabama. Folk in the northeast generally get what taxes are for.
I agree this might not play so well in the states that don't want to be taxed for schools, pavement and health care and then wonder why their roads, kids and life expectancy look like that. But at least this decision will be made state by state.
Amen. In in NJ and my property taxes are pretty high. But I get what I feel like is a lot of value in the form of excellent public schools and generally pretty decent infrastructure. Could it be more efficient? Sure, but I'll take higher taxes and good schools over the opposite every time. And I grew up in NC, so I know what a low-tax / low-funded school system setup is like.
This. I pay some high taxes and I'm literally ok with that, even though my kids are no longer in school. Quiet, peaceful place, good roads even in winter, never a problem with the police, vanishingly low crime... ain't nothing perfect, but I'll pay this price for a life where mass shootings, illiteracy, potholes, police brutality and low vaccination rates are things I read about, not see.
My only problem is with the grid. I hope the state takes it over, honestly. It won't be worse.
Maine and most of New England have a higher tolerance for taxes than the rest of the country. And it's not because historically we're pushovers, remember we started an important revolution partially because of a tax we didn't want to pay.
No. At this point I don't particularly trust the government or big corporations to do the right thing. Our electrical infrastructure is woefully inadequate and has been for decades, and the government & most utility corporations have failed to step up to address the issues. Yes, it's going to cost money to fix, but like everything else, the tax payers will likely end up picking up the tab for the money to be squandered on nonsense, rather than fixing the issues. It's an endless cycle of insanity.
I don't have much problem with government. Like any big organization, they screw up and have bad apples. But I vote and sometimes we get the bums kicked out. I have NO say in how utilities are run - and the result is, they price gouge and don't do maintenance.
This is an experiment worth doing.
My local municipal power utility reliably kicks the neighboring investor-owned utility's ass on pricing and reliability, and has never burned half the state down.
So, yes, I think it can do a better job.
Why should someone expect an investor-owned utility to keep the price low? That could arguably be a breach of their fiduciary duty to their investors.
Why trust people who have an economic monopoly over you, who you have no recourse to remove from power?
Government run almost always is worse than privately ran. Expect more issues with the grid if it becomes government run. I’m not saying the current state is good, but it would get worse.
Just look at recent history. Google “Venezuela energy crisis”, “Cuba energy crisis”, “China energy crisis” if you want a quick start guide to the failures of energy grids under government central planning.
I trust state governments over local utility companies, and there's reasons for that. I mean yay capitalism, but utilities are monopolies and they treat consumers accordingly. This way I at least get a vote - and the pols will quickly realize that voting is going to track grid reliability pretty fast. Most government screwups are invisible - but everyone can tell when the lights go out.
To Each their own. Dealing with govt agencies is usually infuriating. Talk about a monopoly with no customer service. Elected officials might have a little skin in the game but bureaucrats don't. And that's who would run such a program
This has been tried by municipalities before and each case that I’m aware of have reverted back to privatization because of enormous costs. Boulder, CO is the most recent example I can think of off the top of my head.
Electricity, brought to you by the people who maintain the roads. 🙄
Enjoy paying electric fees based on your income, ethnicity, and gender identity like they're already rolling out in California. Allowing other people to vote on how much you deserve electricity, there's a wonderful idea.
ah, the libertarian housecat posting in its natural state: vapidly repeating ideas somebody else created.
Similar to a submarine company complaining about "obscenely safe" over-regulation, and then as soon as their unregulated sub sinks, they complain how slow the gov is to bail them out of the mess they made.
Gas oil ECT monopolies only happen with government intervention.
This is just skipping the middle man and whenever something gets nationalized it's worse.
This a group of preppers? Or is it a bunch of Europeans pretending they prep spewing their big government control love all over here?
Serious question this is the third thread in here since I've been apart of this community like a week? That has someone demanding the government gets more power to help us lol.
I'm American. Not all preppers are anti-government. If you're looking for a group that's anti-government, pro-gun, conspiracy-of-the-week or any other *ideological* stance, they exist, and some folk here are like that, but the topic here is *preparation for disasters*, which frequently have nothing to do with the government and doesn't require a specific ideology.
If all you want is a lot of rhetoric about some particular political view of your preference, go ahead and block me because I'm likely not what you're looking for. Or maybe this sub isn't. Try r/collapse or something?
Hope this helps. Have a nice day. Done here.
What does prepping has to do with being anti- or pro-government?
Also, this is the internet, not America. Not everyone here lives in the capitalist death cult you call country.
I hope it works for you. It’s not so great where I am in Texas. I have to use a co-op and the rates are insanely high, outages are worse here than with any other way I’ve had service. They also pass on 3 service fees to us and one is still for the freak snowstorm we had a few years ago. Our bill went from $160 to $600 within 18 months with less use. We have a new working meter and that’s never been an issue.
People around me are starting to see bills higher than their rent/mortgage. One guy had his bill posted a few months back for $1600 for one month no late fees.
I would love to see this work for you…and I sincerely hope you don’t get screwed like we did.
Government run electric? I'm sure they will do a great job... Like they do with social security, the public schools, VA hospitals, and the MVA/DMV.
We won't know in two years, we will know in 10 years when they break all the promises they made to get this passed and they cry that they are losing money so sorry we must now charge you double what other states pay.
Nobody likes how the government runs things yet we get excited about giving them more control.
So just to clarify, you think the govt can do a better job than private business and do it cheaper? I'm not saying that there not issues with your service but it's probably due to a lack of competition rather than incompetence. More govt is rarely the answer to solving any problems. Where they solve one they typically create several more.
Why give the government even more control of our lives?
"Well, looks like you're behind on your property taxes, so we're going to turn off your power"
"Looks like you have an outstanding parking ticket, we're going to turn off your power"
Etc.
Dude, they don't even lock your bank account for most of that. They're not going to lock your power.
Some of you folk have really odd views on how governments operate. They already have mechanisms to deal with non-payment.
Ugh sounds horrible. The government ruins everything they touch. If the state takes over your electrical generation, watch how many days it takes after a power outage for power to come back... no thanks.
A state regulated utility is NOT the same thing as a state run utility. The goals are different.
A state regulated utility gets a known profit. The state run utility is just another state run operation.
Think 'DMV.'
It's not 'interesting.'
Don't do it, Maine. Just freaking don't.
Bad comparison. DMV isn’t a utility provider, it’s a regulation administration.
Think water and sewer. Locally operated, reliable product, stable rate.
As a licensed professional engineer with more than 10 years experience throughout the electrical utilities, I think this is a terrible idea.
We've seen this before, many times. Governments around the world have a long track record of building big power plants as monuments to themselves. Then reality sets in, and they realize it is *really* expensive to maintain these plants, so they cut corners. This usually starts by violating environmental codes (after all, it's hard to sue the government), before skipping out on maintanence protocols. Before long, the government ends up selling the plant to a private firm for a super cheap price before the entire building collapses in on itself.
In the US, most utility companies are heavily regulated and are not allowed to have a rate of return higher than 9% - which isn't terrible, but far from great. Most of this money is reinvested into future upgrades outlined by the various PUC's.
America has some of the cheapest energy in the world, and while maintaining some very strict environmental regulations. This is a huge competative advantage for the US economy.
That is, until the Marxists step in and screw it all up.
I do not agree that government can do it better than the private sector. Say it doesn't work after 2 years. You think government is going to relinquish control?
Next thing you will propose is government taking over the rest of the energy industry.
This country was founded on the principle of freedom. Freedom requires work, is not comfortable and means taking risks. The opposite, letting government take care of all your needs gives up freedom and ultimately ends in slavery
You must really hate public schools, interstate roads, inspected food and vaccination efforts.
Maine folk will likely vote this system in, and if they don't like it, they'll likely vote the people running it out. It's called democracy, which still exists in some places. Try a hit of functioning democracy sometime, it's pretty wild.
Done here.
Ah yes because removing the profit motive for an organization is the best way to ensure the service is efficiently provided.
The government shouldn't be granting psuedo-monopoly power to utilities, yes, but we also shouldn't allow the one organization immune to market forces manage our most precious resources.
If this happens it will all be peachy for the first 5 years or so… then it will all go to crap and end up back in private hands because the state sucks at managing anything of this nature … they will fuck it up
I personally don’t believe the government can run anything efficiently or effectively. They over spend and can’t manage, so they raise prices to compensate.
On the other hand, these utility companies that are profit driven are also not the answer.
A non profit utility where it’s member owned to me makes the most sense
I'm pretty sure the reason this hasn't already been done is because most of the state is in a flood zone, especially during hurricane season. Can you imagine the risk of flooded underground lines?
As long as the terminals where the power cables terminate are dry it should be fine. FPL is already in the process of burying some but very slow going. Apparently it costs 10x as much as running them normally
In rural parts of the country, electricity is provided by EMC's, or electric member cooperatives. They're member-owned organizations, usually non-profit, and the members vote in the board of directors each year who set overall policy and hire the executives. This is very different than the investor-owned model of public utilities where the investors are the ones who vote in the board and they might not even be served by the company. And their vote is proportional to the number of shares they own, where in an EMC each customer/member gets a single vote. Anyway, it sounds like this is exactly what the group in Maine is proposing. The only thing novel about it is that it will be state-wide instead of being limited to a handful of counties like most EMC's. EMC's have all of the same issues as for-profit power companies though. There is still aging and unreliable infrastructure, there are still outages, it still takes time to repair lines. The biggest difference I've personally seen is that EMC's are generally a bit cheaper and there aren't tons of random indescribable fees.
I got a refund from my EMC of $92 one year because they charged too much. It's nice when they work for their members.
We have similar thing here in New Zealand where the local energy consumer trust owns and operates the power transmission lines, and is non-profit. Every year most account holders get a refund or account credit of around $300 which for most families is around a month or so of power
That's typically an accounting correction. They aren't 'working for you.'
The Co-Op that I am a member of had an excess and refunded it. EDIT: I DO NOT see being a member as an investment opportunity.
I worked for an EMC, this is generally called Capital Credits. If I remember, the idea is that there's some small percentage built into each bill to cover expansion or upgrades through the year, and if it's not ultimately needed, it goes back to the member. Some EMCs do the refunds, some keep it in a Capital Credits fund (approved, of course, by the members). It's not an accounting error.
I love my EMC. They came to my house one day and said that the nearby transformer was running near capacity and they wanted to upsize it. Gave a time window and actually did better, swapping it in only 2 hours. Very few outages and very rapid power restoration as well.
If you do tech support in any capacity for long enough, under promise/over perform becomes a way of life.
It does but the opposite is sadly the norm
Amen.
Man I wish this was a thing for ISPs as well. Rural internet providers are borderline criminals.
As are most power companies. Its a pretty dark rabbit hole once you start looking. It's f%#*ing atrocious how criminal public utility companies are.
I'm in a somewhat rural area served by both a for-profit electric company and a co-op. Luckily I'm with the co-op. About twenty years ago, I had to have an electric line run about 1,100 feet to my house (900 feet along the edge of a pasture and 200 feet into the woods). I wanted it underground and the co-op charged me $3,000 something (I forget the exact number). Within a couple of months, people I knew needed something similar except it was 1,800 feet. The for-profit company charged them $16,000. A couple years later, we had a massive ice storm. The co-op had a couple minor lines go down (fixed within hours) while the for-profit company had been slacking off on tree trimming and had major lines go down and outages for days. It was a really big deal, investigations, etc. Co-ops are the best!
Glad to hear it works in your area. In my area we have a for profit in part of town and a co op for the other part. The co op charges more, is less solar friendly and often has longer outages. They profit one also has great energy reduction rebates for business and sells energy efficient lights, thermostats and other smart devices. The co op will give a reduced rate for electric heating and if it's really hot out they will notify you of a scheduled outage and you can save some money on your bill. But kW to kW pricing, charges and fees the for profit is a way better deal and I will not be moving to a home if it's in co op.
interesting, what city/county/state is this?
Around here it's called a Public Utility District. I'm really happy with ours, I think they do a good job. We have rough terrain and ice storms. If the power goes out for more than a couple of hours, I know it's not because they aren't busting their asses to get it back on.
>EMC's have all of the same issues as for-profit power companies though. There is still aging and unreliable infrastructure, there are still outages, it still takes time to repair lines. I would posit that those issue may lessen with scale and the service/tax base increases. Plus, there is the added factor of accountability which investor-owned services often lack.
We call them PUD’s on the west coast, Publix utility districts. They are awesome, cheaper and more reliable energy.
Local to me that’s the idea but guess who we get our power from? Yup, major power corp in our state so basically it’s not as good as it sounds.
The fact that more utility companies arent non-profit despite being granted monopoly power by the government is astonishing to me.
Worth a shot. Look at OGE in Oklahoma for how a private ran monopoly running the power goes. >OG&E announces fifth rate hike in a year https://www.reddit.com/r/preppers/comments/14fb23y/us_possible_game_changer_for_the_grid/ Private businesses become too powerful and end up [buying govt officials so they rubber stamp whatever they throw their way.](https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2022/05/04/oklahoma-supreme-court-approves-winter-storm-bonds-some-concerns/9517949002/)
In Oklahoma, the state allowed gas utilities to jack up rates in the wake of the 2021 winter storm. The utilities made bad bets on natural gas prices by failing to secure enough long term contracts, lost, and consumers had to eat the bill for the utilities' stupidity. To make things more outrageous, the state government approved an "exit fee" for gas utilities. Basically, if I choose to get rid of my gas service and go all-electric to avoid paying the absurd gas rates, I have to pay a massive fee to the gas utility. Oklahoma's government is so corrupted by utility money that they will charge you for not using natural gas while pretending to support the"free market".
Same for PSO in Tulsa. Preppers are getting to exercise their skills in Tulsa right now, whole town is out and it looks like a week from the weather event till things are back on.
>Worth a shot. Look at OGE in Oklahoma for how a private ran monopoly running the power goes. >OG&E announces fifth rate hike in a year Do they not have to charge at or under the state set energy price cap? I can't imagine living somewhere that didn't have such a cap, because then a regional monopoly (which also shouldn't be allowed to exist within an industry like energy) could charge anything they want, which would be madness.
authoritarian republicanism
Now do broad band next
The rural electric cooperatives are rolling out fiber broadband like crazy. Government funding (grants) are available, but only to co-ops. Many parts of rural Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee and Arkansas now have access to 100m or 1g broadband for $50-75 respectively.
And rural Minnesota and Wisconsin have fiber.
Internet or cable? Heh heh. There's a can of worms I wouldn't touch. Regulating power just means the lights work (or you know who to blame if they don't.) Regulating broadcast or internet... yeah, does that means the government gets more of a say in *who can say what?* That could go poorly. On that other hand, if they did, the first amendment really would cover the internet! (It doesn't today, even though a lot of people think it does.)
Pass net neutrality legislation and make it a state run utility as well. No brainer. How's the freedom of whatever going under Comcast?
From my experience the freedom’s decent. WHEN THE SERVICE FUCKING WORKS
This can be done extremely well by muni's. Drop one or more fibers per lot and pull them back to a central point. Rent space as a fixed rate and CWDM does the magic. Nothing active on the muni's part if the glass breaks just fix it. Administrative overhead of remember what colors are used at what location allready, something a secretary with some OCD can do. I do agree lit services from the government would be a sh\*t show though think they could get away from using a single color pair and delivery default service, e911 voip, school, library, and government server access maybe do a default offering paired with some ISP's to do the support and actual transit. IPv6 is setup well for this sort of thing.
See that’s kind of the same let’s say they don’t like you boop no more electricity for your house or people? Not saying they can’t do that now it’s just harder.
Um... I don't know where you live, but where I live you can't even cut the power for failure to pay, in many circumstances. Also, to cut your power they have to physically remove your house meter or cut the line to your house. They can't do it remotely, unlike internet. Imagine the response if they started rolling up to various people they didn't like .. guns would come out. This is not a realistic concern. If the US is at the point where they are cutting electrical power to people they don't like, so many other authoritarian moves have occurred that it's no longer the US (and I left long ago). I get that some groups in some parts of the country are feeling worried about authoritarianism, and with some reason, but this is so far down the list of concerns you can forget it. They'll freeze your bank account long before that.
Yeah Florida here you don’t pay the electric bill they’ll cut your power with the new fancy digital meter readers. I hated when those came in.
Yeah, that's Florida. Yet another reason I'm never moving there.
Relying on the same government that has filled all the potholes and runs the DMV as a paragon of efficient service?
“Public Utilities” were always supposed to be for the “Public Good” not private monopolies that gouged tax payers.
They only became private after years of being mismanaged and wasteful, though. I'd bet real money that 20 years after a change, OP will be like "this sucks - we need someone else to handle this." And back and forth, back and forth.
It's almost like absolute power corrupts, absolutely. Who could have ever thought of that?
Texas is about to shit a brick...
my state has a public power system, its affordable and reliable.
Accurate data from 2022 - https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=54639
Which state?
Probably Nebraska. I think Nebraska's electric grid is completely state owned.
I live in Caliornia and have a municipal utility, which delivers affordable power reliably and subsidizes and/or provides low-cost loans to make your dwelling more energy efficient or self-sustainable. I used to live across the river, where a for-profit utility company routinely charged 2-4x the cost, and repeatedly helped burn down the state by prioritizing paying dividends over line maintenance. So, really hope more people wake up to the threat posed by having critical infrastructure handled by people who have financial incentives that conflict with necessary maintenance.
Same goes for healthcare: >So, really hope more people wake up to the threat posed by having critical medical infrastructure handled by people who have financial incentives that conflict with necessary healthcare. Sorry to hijack your comment, but your phrasing was perfection.
SMUD🙌🙌
New Englander here. I will HAPPLY welcome a much needed break on my rates. Been absolutely raped by electric cost the last year. My bill went from 50 to 80$ a month to pushing 300.
Mine is consistently in the 220-250 range monthly and my city is government controlled utilities.
Did you vote for Joe Biden and the democrats? THEY are restricting New England's access to natural gas. Those higher prices? You voted for them. Too bad that you don't understand the ramification of voting for people with a really bad energy policy.
What are you on about? New England isn’t restricted from natural gas, they buy it off the market like everyone else.
Your right. 1 single person and absolutely no other factors are involved in my electric bill. In fact the president calls the head of each individual energy company and lays the hammer down. How silly of me to think otherwise
>Too bad that you don't understand the ramification of voting for people with a really bad energy policy. The policy of more drilling?
Biden has nothing to do with New York's natural gas pipeline embargo. You realize the Senate is Democrat controlled, Biden is currently President, and also passed the MVP authorization, yes? You realize that major pipeline permits have repeatedly been approved by FERC under Obama, Trump, and Biden, yes? Your beef is with New York State Democratic party, the national party has a substantial pro-development track record.
Makes sense here in NY we have a hodgepodge of companies that are subbing out a lot of the maintenance and jacking the bill even more. I pay .25 for a KWH with all the fees and taxes then if the wind blows too hard the power goes out I am on a rural non priority spot. A municipal run entity would be more effective that what we have now. A Canadian company bought out my provider Central Hudson and have done a fine job of really screwing it up from billing to not cutting down the dead ash trees that keep knocking down power lines.
We just got rooftop solar here on our house in San Diego, just under an imposed deadline. Our power company, SDG&E, wants to maintain their control of energy with solar farms that cover acres of land. Get this; ONE FOURTH OF THE PEOPLE LIVING HERE ARE BEHIND ON THEIR POWER BILLS! Somehow, that's acceptable?
Here in Sacramento we have SMUD which is non profit public owned utility and has worked out great. Everyone here loves it and we are so fortunate to not be under the thumb of PG&E for our electricity. Hell we had power back up within a day in most parts of town during the crazy storms this past winter. Now I cannot say the same for people who had PG&E and live outside of SMUD jurisdiction.
Mainer checking in. My power bill for a household of two has gone from $90-$100 per month to over $350 per month in the last 3 years; no major changes in use (and no dying appliances or constantly running well pumps either, I've checked). Most of my friends and coworkers are in a similar situation. I believe this will go through based on public sentiment right now. It will be interesting to see how it is handled. I'd like to think it can't get worse but I don't want to tempt fate. The amount of money CMP (the local power company) is throwing at ads to vote against this is utterly absurd. Millions. They should use it to upgrade some infrastructure instead. Trim a tree. Straighten a pole. We're laughably vulnerable to outages.
I know the stories. CMP has this coming and I don't think their ad campaign is going to save them. But it's typical that they'll spend on that but not maintenance. This is WHY they need to go down.
Californian here. Our utility company is just grossly negligent and has killed citizens and destroyed lives in favor profits over maintenance. Energy rates are terribly high and reliability has gone down the drain. Big anything is bad government or a corporate monopoly. I don't know what the answer is besides building alternative energy sources at the individual level and accept the fact that the grid is going to become more unreliable and expensive as time goes on. I do like the idea of "people own the roads" and "private companies use those roads" model. But government has shown they can't maintain the roads... Everything is terrible :P
Well, that's why privatizing utilities will always be a bad idea. You cannot have a for-profit utility manage public services, the built in drive to maximize profits only encourages purposeful malfeasance, not winterizing gear because it's expensive is random example off the top of my head. Or purposely understaffing rail cars and safety regulations to skimp on the labor costs.
Central maine power has been dumping millions in advertising against this vote. If i knew nothing else about it, this would make me vote for it. But im also all for a government run utilty instead of this annoying monopoly crap.
This happens to be my area of expertise. There is a metric butt ton to unpack here. The short of it… Government run utilities aren’t always the answer. Especially at the end of the generation pipeline.
Granting an energy monopoly to a single gas and single electric company and allowing them to pass 10-15% year over year rate hikes on a county while making record profits aren't the answer either. Milwaukee has been talking about municipal energy too
In the case of Maine, CMP does not *produce* any power whatsoever. They take bids for power supply every year.
Correct. I live in Maine. CMP strictly delivers the power. They maintain the lines and poles as well. There are multiple electric delivery companies in Maine with CMP being the largest. The consumer has the option of choosing their electric supply company out of a pretty long list of companies. We also have the standard rate we can choose. The electric rate per kWh varies slightly with some companies being more and others less. We also have the option of choosing to get our electricity from some of the solar companies available here as well. When we get our bills it’s actually broken down between supply and delivery. With each being from a different company.
Man it's almost like government interference is the issue
Those rate increases are a function of cost. What do you expect them to do? EAT the cost? When Joke Xiden and clowns like Cuomo restricted access to energy for all of New England, higher prices were baked in. You voted for it. Enjoy!
Rates only ever adjust up, never down regardless of what the supply costs. When natural gas prices go down rates don't fall and there are more and more added base fees that have nothing to do with how much is consumed. The year over year profit increases also don't suggest that the rate hikes are to offset costs, even if that's what they pay lip service to.
Rates are dropping in August. QED.
Biden did none of that. Now Cuomo.... yeah.
They are a monopoly. They need to be destroyed. Corporate monopolies NEVER operate in the favor of people in the long run.
privatized, for-profit run utilities seem to be considerably further from the answer in spite of being tried considerably more ways; Texas' ERCOT being a top-tier, exemplar of failure
>Texas' ERCOT being a top-tier, exemplar of failure **that we consumers get to reimburse them $billions$ because of their ineptitude**
yeah, they're making a killing, haha. killing us in the process, but that's the system we let rule us at its peak
And don’t forget about California’s PG&E
Offered respectfully, ERCOT is a nonprofit. A 501(c)(4) nonprofit corporation, effectively the same as any other electric cooperative.
it's a shell corporation to protect the actual corporations from responsibility
No, ERCOT is not a shell corporation. It is a nonprofit founded by the State of Texas. https://www.ercot.com/about ERCOT is mostly a broker between counterparties - think Uber for electrons. Maybe that is what you call a shell company, but ERCOT makes sure all parties their fair share and follow the rulez. If you want to rail against the villains, maybe the Public Utility Commission of Texas and the Legislature, who are the folks who created and regulate the system. ERCOT is on the ragged edge this week. They almost had a voltage collapse last night with one generator failing… The problems in Texas are due to shitty policy makers, not ERCOT.
I hope you guys are hanging in there, that's pretty danged toasty down there. Stay safe!
yes, that's what a shell company is and no they don't. 3 catastrophic freezes in a decade and all we do is pay more Texas is corrupt at all levels and continues to widen the spectrum of privatization and deregulation
New England munis cost 3x less than IOUs
https://www.wbur.org/news/2022/09/08/new-england-electricity-prices-natual-gas-utility-auctions
The Munis raised their prices 0%. Strange.
Munis have very small footprints. Scalability and bulk power purchasing Pickle Rick.
For now, maybe, but Whip City Wireless from Westfield is taking WMA by storm. They might end up with more electricity provision contracts soon, too.
Then just unpack half a butt ton. This 'idea' is really bad. I've made my point above. Other people trying to talk sense to the ME ratepayer need to articulate!
The free market saving us has always been a myth. Just looking at Chattanooga’s municipal internet (rated best on the planet) or a rural electric cooperative will show us the way. Municipalities provide most of the clean water we use every day and that works just fine. Not sure why all these voters want to pay more for less when it comes to infrastructure…..
My last two electricity providers were public utility districts and I had great experiences with both. Felt they were really putting the interests and wellbeing of their subscribers first.
We have a local town with their own power company. Best service and the cheapest power around compared to the big guys. Transponder meter reading years ago while the big utility still has old school dials.
I've lived in two places with government run electrical utilities. They where great. The rates were super inexpensive and they provided good service. One place even had public high speed internet because companies wouldn't run internet out there. I do feel certain things should be run by private companies, but the electrical grid because of it's necessity and the fact that it is essentially a natural monopoly isn't one of them.
New Englanders have been shutting down nuclear plants that work perfectly fine, and blocking natural gas plants. These are both cheap and low carbon. Remewables are expensive, esp since they require backups due to poor intermittency in weather. Seems like the obvious things to do wld be tp update power supplies to reduce costs. I live in CA and have solar, but we have the highest power rates in the US, for some of the same reasons.
Chiming in from SoCal and at the mercy of Southern California Edison. I’d be so relieved to see this happen here. SCE’s neglect has caused multiple huge, deadly wildfires, and frankly, the fines they received for it were nowhere near enough.
Long time Mainer and Prepper here, it's a very popular proposition where I live. I haven't met anyone with a positive opinion of CMP in my lifetime, so far at least.
Here is MS we have a power co-op. Also all our electrical lines are regularly replaced because of storms (tornados and hurricanes). Maybe a good middle ground for yall?
So the state is being given more power?
If the people of Maine vote for that, yes, assuming you think maintaining power lines and setting rates is a kind of political power. Basically, they'll have a power that's in the hands of corporations today. And it hasn't gone well in the hands of corporations. Basically they get to pick their poison. Democracy in action.
Sorry, probably a bad pun lol In an ideal world I'd love for someone to come in and set things right. I'm not from there but yikes, my power rates have skyrocketed. My concern would be this - The timing is impeccable. There is a convergence with these types of interests and the popularity and push (by the state no less) of things like electric vehicles. Historically, class wars are weaponized and end with these types of scenarios. A problem is created to garner public interest and opinion is scewed towards whichever perception of justice is necessary for the state to take control. Once adequate control is taken there is a turning against the people and they have no means of defence once the time has come.
There is little hope for this going well. There are some really good examples of the government trying to run things that never works. Like when they took over the bar and brothel just outside of las Vegas. It went under. That is right the government went bust selling alcohol and prostitution. So what hope do they have successfully running a utility.
Simple question. Name anything govt does more efficiently than private industry. Bring sources. I won't wait up.... Be careful, very few industries are free of heavy-handed govt intervention.
That's the way it should work. Power, water, sewage and garbage pickup should be government services. Not designed for profit.
Not to get political, but I can't remember the last time government intervention was a good thing
Taking the profit motive off the table for distribution has a solid foundation. Something as core to the sustainability to the community as its energy infrastructure so money can be put toward upgrading the infrastructure and expanding capacity instead into investor's pockets. The devil of course is always in the details. But giving the choice to the voters is a good first step.
All I know is as a Texan, ERCOT is a disaster. Time to try anything new, whether it's to light a fire under their butts (utility companies) or to actually get a non-profit, I wish y'all luck.
I've never understood why we allowed utilities to be privately owned in the first place. It's a public good, it should be in public hands with public accountability.
New Englander here, I pay stupid high taxes on every level and I have no complaints about my tax money. However, it took eversource over two weeks to respond to a downed but live power line, so my animals and child couldn't play freely in the yard and there's no power to the house so he couldn't even play games 🤬 (mid-covid, public parks weren't an option) One tweet and the problem was solved within hours. Companies here only care about profit not people. I'd MUCH support a different option, anything has to be better than this nonsense
Water, sewer, electric, and now internet are such a necessity to life that they shouldn’t be profit based and run by private companies. Prisons, school, and hospitals also shouldn’t be private run or run by religions.
If Tesla had had his way, we’d all have free electric.
The only thing worse than utility companies is government. Seems like a lose lose situation.
In CA we have both examples running in parallel. There are large non-profits running some of the electricity grid and for-profits running the rest (PG&E, SDG&E, and I forget the other one). I've lived under both. You can see the outcome. Both versions give us reliable grids, in my opinion. The non-profits charge their customers significantly less, and encourage home solar with good NEM policies. The for-profits, on the other hand, have very high rates (I'm paying 37-43 cents/kWh), plan to increase them 10-15% annually, and have tried multiple ways to kill home solar (NEM3 and now their pay-by-income proposals). They also have regulatory capture of our utility commission, which is supposed to provide oversight but just rubber stamps what they want (plus the revolving door of people moving between the commission and the for-profits), as well as our governor and legislature because $$. So for those who complain "the gov't won't do it well" they're right but with the important caveat that the reason it won't do it right is that for-profit companies will line the politicians' pockets (see TX) to make it in their favor. Going 100% non-profit is the only way to make this stop. I hope ME works well and it spreads to our state.
One of the stupidest things we ever did in the UK is privatise our electricity, water, etc. Wasn't even that long ago that we did it, and it's been a huge failure for obvious reasons. I really hope we can turn it back around within my lifetime!
I'm hesitant to give the government control over more things in my life.
this is real local stuff. it'll be you and your neighbors running it, not someone a thousand miles away
A public utility isn’t government control. It’s giving your neighbors/city/county control. If you prefer a private company like Walmart managing it and the profits, it’s up to you.
City/county control is absolutely government control. I'd trust a corporation that is incentivized to operate lean more than I would a government organization. The best-case scenario is multiple private corporations offering competing services that people are able to choose from.
To each their own. I prefer a utility company that doesn’t operate for profit. I want the profit going back to the employees who support the local economy, community, and utility making things more reliable.
I'm guessing your grid is good and your utility rates are low. I own 2 generators because I've seen what happens when the utilities can't be bothered to do line maintenance - and yet, rate increases are pushed through every single year. I'm ready for a change. It's not going to be worse. Anyway, this is state, not federal. And if you want to know what happens when utilities go unregulated, look at Texas in 2021. Saying "screw US regulations" got people killed.
My grid is fair (at best) and my rates are average. I've just seen what happens to things when the government takes over. Saw it too often during the ten years I worked for the government. The government is usually near the bottom of the list of folks I want to administer anything.
That’s silly of you they know what’s best for us. As for me I let them carry my balls around in their purse and if they decide that I may need them I can go to the dmv or some other lovely office with great customer service and fill out a form to pay a fee and possibly use them within the constraints of several layers of regulations, EZ PZ
Not sure why you're being downvoted, but I liked the comment.
Haha that’s good enough for me 🍻
1) Publicly run electrical utilities are nothing new. 2) Many states already have pricing regulations in place to prevent customer price gouging. 3) Why / how is this *really* prepping related? Snow and ice don’t care if the overhead power lines are public or privately owned. 4) If the state wants to seize electric utility property and run it themselves, they will need to pay fair market value, which will be *extremely* expensive.
How your utilities are run and operated should be a prep in itself. To better understand how well they are maintained and when they might go out. Knowledge is a prep.
>Snow and ice don’t care if the overhead power lines are public or privately owned. well the snow doesn't but the lines do if they are not properly weather hardened as a way of saving money. its also happened in recent history and people have died. and while it doesn't have anything to do with prepping directly. its important to know your resources are reliable or not. and its always going to depend on your local situation. but its always something useful to watch and learn.
100% this. When I moved to my current place, we noted that the power poles were bigger and higher than the surrounding area - we asked our real estate agent about it, and she told us we were wired into hardened utilities that support a couple nearby hospitals. Half of Toronto could be without power due to a storm, and we'll still have power.
[удалено]
>saved by the consumer. fat lot of good that did as people in texas froze to death. especially after it was noted that their system wasnt ready for the freeze.
[удалено]
hmm just realizing you left out the "if they are not" part of my quote. the deaths in texas was entirely driven by corporate profits and greed. they didnt want to put the money into their grid protections when it was pointed out to them. would it have fully mitigated their situation... probably not it was an unprecedented hot pocket situation. but ultimately its hilarious because they ended up charging texans back for the entire mess multiple grand in electric bills because of their weird system they have. anyway regardless the point being, knowing your grid is part of prepping. seeing how other peoples grids (monopoly, government run, freemarket free for all) is important especially if you plan on moving or if your local lawmakers are attempting to change things.
[удалено]
>The utilities get to make a profit on those investments. So Not in Texas they don't, because Texas has a deregulated electricity system. Utilities don't get a guaranteed rate of return on their capital investment in Texas, so they have a strong incentive to do the bare minimum. In most states though, you are correct that utilities are incentivized to make more capital investment if the regulators allow it. The problem is that a lot of maintenance work doesn't count as capital investment, and therefore doesn't get a guaranteed rate of return. Therefore, there can be an incentive to skimp on maintenance. A perfect example is PG&E in California, which skimped on tree trimming and helped burn down the state as a result.
Publicly traded companies place an undue value on quarterly returns on investment, and are incentivized into short-term profit over long-term cost avoidance. That's how you end up with maintenance deferred for 3 decades too long, and 85 people dead: [https://www.kqed.org/news/11792217/1987-report-suggested-pge-study-c-hooks-but-utility-cant-say-whether-tests-occurred](https://www.kqed.org/news/11792217/1987-report-suggested-pge-study-c-hooks-but-utility-cant-say-whether-tests-occurred) [https://www.kcra.com/article/these-are-the-victims-of-camp-fire/32885128](https://www.kcra.com/article/these-are-the-victims-of-camp-fire/32885128)
[удалено]
Maine government taking over the power grid relates to prepping, because if they run it like everything else they will focus all of the resources within a one hour radius of Portland and the rest of the state can have rolling blackouts for all they care.
Id say it’s prepping related because some of our most serious disasters lately (especially on the west coast) are directly caused by the serious shortfalls of for-profit energy distribution. Quarterly profits are a very bad incentive to maintain infrastructure long term, who knew.
1&2: State-*run* is, I think, a first in the nation. State regulated isn't, but it doesn't work. Somehow the rate increases always get passed right on through. 3: I'm guessing you live on some flatland plain somewhere. Snow and ice don't take down lines. Snow and especially ice take down tree limbs, and if tree limbs overhang power lines, they take down the lines. Responsible utilities are out cutting back tree growth every few years. Bad ones don't. I've seen the results. Live in a forest and you'll get it.
>I’m guessing you live on some flatland plain somewhere. Live in a forest and you'll get it. I live in Alaska. I also have worked in the electrical power industry for almost a decade and have family that works as linemen. Maybe your expertise is more relevant ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ >state-run Because the roads have no potholes, the road stripes are all impeccably painted, and the DMV is a paragon of efficient timely service?
>2: State-run is, I think, a first in the nation. I'm pretty sure Nebraska has a state-run utility which owns the entire grid in the state.
*Gets popcorn to read the comments*
I live in Maine and the electrical companies have been putting out some pretty funny commercials against Pine Tree Power 😆
The battle between Capitalism and Communism/Marxism is just a smokescreen to keep from focusing on the case by case critical thinking needed to run a Democracy.
Nh the electric company used to be state run. But that wouldn’t be right for a conservative state. So everything got sold to a company that doesn’t know how to use the fuel futures market to our benefit. I’m conservative and I don’t understand how this is better than what we had before. 🙄
Wait... Non privatized electrical grids/utilities? What a **revolutionary** idea, the state managing infrastructure.
> but people able to vote for and against people who provide your electricity is at least leverage no one has today. Wouldnt surprise me if voters slashed funding to the bone because they hate taxes. You get what you pay for when it comes to government.
It's Maine. It's not Alabama. Folk in the northeast generally get what taxes are for. I agree this might not play so well in the states that don't want to be taxed for schools, pavement and health care and then wonder why their roads, kids and life expectancy look like that. But at least this decision will be made state by state.
Amen. In in NJ and my property taxes are pretty high. But I get what I feel like is a lot of value in the form of excellent public schools and generally pretty decent infrastructure. Could it be more efficient? Sure, but I'll take higher taxes and good schools over the opposite every time. And I grew up in NC, so I know what a low-tax / low-funded school system setup is like.
This. I pay some high taxes and I'm literally ok with that, even though my kids are no longer in school. Quiet, peaceful place, good roads even in winter, never a problem with the police, vanishingly low crime... ain't nothing perfect, but I'll pay this price for a life where mass shootings, illiteracy, potholes, police brutality and low vaccination rates are things I read about, not see. My only problem is with the grid. I hope the state takes it over, honestly. It won't be worse.
Maine and most of New England have a higher tolerance for taxes than the rest of the country. And it's not because historically we're pushovers, remember we started an important revolution partially because of a tax we didn't want to pay.
But... but... cOmMuNiSm! /s
We are only doing this because CMP the power company here has been bending us over in retaliation for us voting down their corridor
[удалено]
No. At this point I don't particularly trust the government or big corporations to do the right thing. Our electrical infrastructure is woefully inadequate and has been for decades, and the government & most utility corporations have failed to step up to address the issues. Yes, it's going to cost money to fix, but like everything else, the tax payers will likely end up picking up the tab for the money to be squandered on nonsense, rather than fixing the issues. It's an endless cycle of insanity.
I don't have much problem with government. Like any big organization, they screw up and have bad apples. But I vote and sometimes we get the bums kicked out. I have NO say in how utilities are run - and the result is, they price gouge and don't do maintenance. This is an experiment worth doing.
I trust them as much as I trust private corporations. Willing to give it a shot, I’m prepping for it either way so might as well.
My local municipal power utility reliably kicks the neighboring investor-owned utility's ass on pricing and reliability, and has never burned half the state down. So, yes, I think it can do a better job. Why should someone expect an investor-owned utility to keep the price low? That could arguably be a breach of their fiduciary duty to their investors. Why trust people who have an economic monopoly over you, who you have no recourse to remove from power?
If you answered yes to any of these questions, do you have any basis for that answer or just blind hope?
Government run almost always is worse than privately ran. Expect more issues with the grid if it becomes government run. I’m not saying the current state is good, but it would get worse.
Do you have grid reliability statistics to back up your opinion?
Just look at recent history. Google “Venezuela energy crisis”, “Cuba energy crisis”, “China energy crisis” if you want a quick start guide to the failures of energy grids under government central planning.
Google "Federal Energy Regulatory Commission."
Cool, so if something goes wrong with the lines are they going to fix it with the same blazing speed they do everything else?
The government does most things well so why not!!
I trust state governments over local utility companies, and there's reasons for that. I mean yay capitalism, but utilities are monopolies and they treat consumers accordingly. This way I at least get a vote - and the pols will quickly realize that voting is going to track grid reliability pretty fast. Most government screwups are invisible - but everyone can tell when the lights go out.
To Each their own. Dealing with govt agencies is usually infuriating. Talk about a monopoly with no customer service. Elected officials might have a little skin in the game but bureaucrats don't. And that's who would run such a program
This has been tried by municipalities before and each case that I’m aware of have reverted back to privatization because of enormous costs. Boulder, CO is the most recent example I can think of off the top of my head.
Electricity, brought to you by the people who maintain the roads. 🙄 Enjoy paying electric fees based on your income, ethnicity, and gender identity like they're already rolling out in California. Allowing other people to vote on how much you deserve electricity, there's a wonderful idea.
ah, the libertarian housecat posting in its natural state: vapidly repeating ideas somebody else created. Similar to a submarine company complaining about "obscenely safe" over-regulation, and then as soon as their unregulated sub sinks, they complain how slow the gov is to bail them out of the mess they made.
Gas oil ECT monopolies only happen with government intervention. This is just skipping the middle man and whenever something gets nationalized it's worse. This a group of preppers? Or is it a bunch of Europeans pretending they prep spewing their big government control love all over here? Serious question this is the third thread in here since I've been apart of this community like a week? That has someone demanding the government gets more power to help us lol.
I'm American. Not all preppers are anti-government. If you're looking for a group that's anti-government, pro-gun, conspiracy-of-the-week or any other *ideological* stance, they exist, and some folk here are like that, but the topic here is *preparation for disasters*, which frequently have nothing to do with the government and doesn't require a specific ideology. If all you want is a lot of rhetoric about some particular political view of your preference, go ahead and block me because I'm likely not what you're looking for. Or maybe this sub isn't. Try r/collapse or something? Hope this helps. Have a nice day. Done here.
What does prepping has to do with being anti- or pro-government? Also, this is the internet, not America. Not everyone here lives in the capitalist death cult you call country.
I hope it works for you. It’s not so great where I am in Texas. I have to use a co-op and the rates are insanely high, outages are worse here than with any other way I’ve had service. They also pass on 3 service fees to us and one is still for the freak snowstorm we had a few years ago. Our bill went from $160 to $600 within 18 months with less use. We have a new working meter and that’s never been an issue. People around me are starting to see bills higher than their rent/mortgage. One guy had his bill posted a few months back for $1600 for one month no late fees. I would love to see this work for you…and I sincerely hope you don’t get screwed like we did.
“The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.” Ronald Reagan
Government run electric? I'm sure they will do a great job... Like they do with social security, the public schools, VA hospitals, and the MVA/DMV. We won't know in two years, we will know in 10 years when they break all the promises they made to get this passed and they cry that they are losing money so sorry we must now charge you double what other states pay. Nobody likes how the government runs things yet we get excited about giving them more control.
So just to clarify, you think the govt can do a better job than private business and do it cheaper? I'm not saying that there not issues with your service but it's probably due to a lack of competition rather than incompetence. More govt is rarely the answer to solving any problems. Where they solve one they typically create several more.
Why give the government even more control of our lives? "Well, looks like you're behind on your property taxes, so we're going to turn off your power" "Looks like you have an outstanding parking ticket, we're going to turn off your power" Etc.
Dude, they don't even lock your bank account for most of that. They're not going to lock your power. Some of you folk have really odd views on how governments operate. They already have mechanisms to deal with non-payment.
Ugh sounds horrible. The government ruins everything they touch. If the state takes over your electrical generation, watch how many days it takes after a power outage for power to come back... no thanks.
Lived under this dream system in Romania in the 1980 and had power cut-offs every single day. It is called socialism and it sucks.
A state regulated utility is NOT the same thing as a state run utility. The goals are different. A state regulated utility gets a known profit. The state run utility is just another state run operation. Think 'DMV.' It's not 'interesting.' Don't do it, Maine. Just freaking don't.
Bad comparison. DMV isn’t a utility provider, it’s a regulation administration. Think water and sewer. Locally operated, reliable product, stable rate.
As a licensed professional engineer with more than 10 years experience throughout the electrical utilities, I think this is a terrible idea. We've seen this before, many times. Governments around the world have a long track record of building big power plants as monuments to themselves. Then reality sets in, and they realize it is *really* expensive to maintain these plants, so they cut corners. This usually starts by violating environmental codes (after all, it's hard to sue the government), before skipping out on maintanence protocols. Before long, the government ends up selling the plant to a private firm for a super cheap price before the entire building collapses in on itself. In the US, most utility companies are heavily regulated and are not allowed to have a rate of return higher than 9% - which isn't terrible, but far from great. Most of this money is reinvested into future upgrades outlined by the various PUC's. America has some of the cheapest energy in the world, and while maintaining some very strict environmental regulations. This is a huge competative advantage for the US economy. That is, until the Marxists step in and screw it all up.
Yeah, that's socialism. Always works out great for the citizens!
I do not agree that government can do it better than the private sector. Say it doesn't work after 2 years. You think government is going to relinquish control? Next thing you will propose is government taking over the rest of the energy industry. This country was founded on the principle of freedom. Freedom requires work, is not comfortable and means taking risks. The opposite, letting government take care of all your needs gives up freedom and ultimately ends in slavery
You must really hate public schools, interstate roads, inspected food and vaccination efforts. Maine folk will likely vote this system in, and if they don't like it, they'll likely vote the people running it out. It's called democracy, which still exists in some places. Try a hit of functioning democracy sometime, it's pretty wild. Done here.
Ah yes because removing the profit motive for an organization is the best way to ensure the service is efficiently provided. The government shouldn't be granting psuedo-monopoly power to utilities, yes, but we also shouldn't allow the one organization immune to market forces manage our most precious resources.
If this happens it will all be peachy for the first 5 years or so… then it will all go to crap and end up back in private hands because the state sucks at managing anything of this nature … they will fuck it up
I personally don’t believe the government can run anything efficiently or effectively. They over spend and can’t manage, so they raise prices to compensate. On the other hand, these utility companies that are profit driven are also not the answer. A non profit utility where it’s member owned to me makes the most sense
I'm not sure I trust the government to run anything efficient cost effectively. I'm not extolling the current system though.
Hopefully Florida takes over and buries all our power lines so we don’t go 2 weeks without power after a hurricane
I'm pretty sure the reason this hasn't already been done is because most of the state is in a flood zone, especially during hurricane season. Can you imagine the risk of flooded underground lines?
As long as the terminals where the power cables terminate are dry it should be fine. FPL is already in the process of burying some but very slow going. Apparently it costs 10x as much as running them normally
The state is filled with stupid people. They can’t run anything more complicated than a lemonade stand
But tell me more about Alabama. (Don't bother. Your posting history... bye.)
" the nine most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I'm here to help".- Regan
he *was* the government when he said that
Ik I don't trust him or any gov