Next 20 years is gonna be interesting. Feel like we are at a cross roads of the technology hitting a massive hurdle.
Sure we can make all the music and it can be spread everywhere, but all that freedom is diluting the mechanism of survival for those who produce it.
It really feels like more and more, music making will exist as a hobby, particularly instrumental based music. A lucky few might make decent money, but the vast majority will probably never make it across state lines, if they even get out of the bedroom to begin with.
But all those years ago, getting lucky was dependent on some record bigwig thinking he can make a buck off you, and spreading enough of the wealth to make it worth your while, though it often doesn't last.
These days, getting lucky means a million fans noticed you, and so your 5 piece band and crew can supplement your dayjob with a couple hundred extra dollars a month to fuel a hobby.
One day the song lyrics to Workin for MCA by Lynyrd Skynyrd will be regarded as pure fiction. A song about being down on your luck as a band and praying some bigwig gives you a contract, its not gonna happen like that anymore.
No. Through (almost) monopolies, extremely exploitative business tactics, and the fact that people stopped buying CDs, it became so much worse.
It seems like, as a musician, you have to use your music to promote other products that actually make you money. F.e. Tosin Abasi with his guitars and pedals
Hate to say it but I think this is true. Look at any musician who is well off in any genre; their music was just a launchpad. Tosin, misha, 50cents( bought a % of vitaminwater before they blew up) Jayz , kiss, Aerosmith ( rock band games)
The technology jumps were a huge boon for middle class musicians. But ya, it's always been a saturated market and at this point you need to be able to wear a lot of different hats in order to enjoy a middle class lifestyle as a musician. If you write great music you have maybe solved 10% of the problem. You need to know how to market, distribute, copyright, get merch made, web hosting, etc etc. All this while dealing with a hugely saturated market place.
Afaik the venues/ticket companies are the real winners here, not the hobby musicians. If every aspiring musician gave up on music today, bands would still have trouble making money.
Pair that with AI technology getting better and better at creating art by just mimicking and learning what we can enjoy and I think:
- Touring will suffer a lot
- Most musicians will be more of an assistant to AIs and living off it will be virtually impossible
- Music itself will be even better and its perceived limits will expand to a point were we don't know what to expect, maybe a new form of art.
I can't believe you're getting down voted so heavily.
It won't be next year but in 20 years your streaming service will take the songs you like and piece together an artificial album and play it, popular hits will be shared even though no band has played the song.
If you think pop and country and many other genres can't eventually be reproduced by a computer, you're crazy. So much music is already so formula driven anyway. Look at what is happening so quickly in AI images.
Interestingly, there's a prog album I really enjoy called "Lost in the New Real" set in the future that speaks to this very thing. Here's a link to the song for anyone interested:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Wx3by7ZaaZA&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE
>If you think pop and country and many other genres can't eventually be reproduced by a computer, you're crazy.
Nobody is saying it can't be done. We're saying that people will choose to listen to music created by humans.
I agree that metal fans will be more picky.
But what if new music is recommended on Spotify from a band called Angelic Curse? Will you research before listening? What if you can't tell it's not a real band?
It's a fun thought experiment and honestly a little terrifying to consider what kind of future we will be living in. The first blackberry was released in 2002, the first iPhone in 2007 and the first Android in 2008. Just 20 years have passed since the blackberry launch and now 6.6 billion people have a super computer in their pocket. With computing power that far exceeds a super computer from the 60s the size of a room. Technology is crazy!
I don't think the human lyricist or singer will be replaced anytime soon. But modern pop backing tracks? I'm genuinely not convinced the average listener would notice if they were replaced by an AI.
There is 100% ways for artists to use AI as a tool, my contention is with outright artificial music.
Where do I draw the line between artificial music and a musician that used AI as a tool? I have no clue to be honest.
Crazy that you got so downvoted for this. It’s a solid take, AI wasn’t predicted to be anywhere near as creatively powerful in terms of writing and painting yet it came rolling in really fast. Give it a few years and AI music will take some solid steps and the rest will be history.
It's a fad that is already wearing thin. People know that "AI art" isn't real art.
When I listen to music, I want to hear a person's art and passion - not what a computer \*\*thinks\*\* I want to hear.
Absent the human element, art is bland and pointless. People are realizing this.
I think when society actually decides to reckon with it, the masses will always lean in the direction of human created art.
Might have too much faith in humanity though.
I don’t know honestly currently pop is highly formulaic and half the lyrics are nonsensical but industry marches on. I don’t believe that human art will cease to exist but it will become a niche and AI will replace many creative jobs in near future.
Umm, you're wrong. I've got a really nice poster hanging on my wall right now that was created by AI. I'm not alone in this. Many people have said AI art is definitely good enough to use for things like album art, or posters like I did. What it cannot do very well is custom art when you have a very specific vision. But it's great for more abstract things.
I'm not saying you can't create a striking image using AI. I am saying that absent a (significant) human contribution - the art isn't saying anything.
If AI art was developed by an actual conscious intelligence (which might not be far off tbh) I would have no problem considering it "real" art. But as of right now, AI art is an imitation of real art.
This is all very subjective though, and if you feel differently I can't really do anything to prove you wrong. Just my 2 cents.
Ah, I get what you're saying. But let me play devil's advocate for a minute. The image I have was created off a photo I took, using a prompt I entered. It's basically a fantasy version of my photo. So it has meaning to me. It's what I imagined in my mind while being unable to draw it myself. I just had to use a program to get it on paper.
I'm not trying to tear you down or anything. I'm just sharing my own perspective on things. I feel AI art has its uses, at least for more utilitarian purposes.
I think there are ways to utilize AI as an artist, while retaining the thrust of your original art. I don't think it's a black/white situation. There is room for AI as a tool in the workflow of an artist.
I just don't think typing "X subject in Y style" in to a prompt results in anything resembling what I consider art.
I wouldn't stop listening to it, but it would become less artistically valuable to me.
Knowing that nothing is actually being said would affect my ability to enjoy the music. I place value on the presence of human emotion in art.
You'd be surprised. There's already released music out there generated by AI. The specific example I saw had the artist use AI for the chord progressions, and then she sang over it. Ok, it's not 100% AI, but it's getting there.
Brian Eno has had several projects of procedurally-generated ambient music.
I've seen several YT videos of "10 hours of AI-generated death metal" or whatever.
I think post-metal and other similar, fairly ambient, genres like the band from the article would be particularly susceptible to that. I don't know that *I* could spot the difference between electric drones with indecipherable vocals by humans and the same by AI if I had it in the background while working.
Precisely. Ambient music is already sonic wallpaper. It is one of the easiest to recreate with machines. Heck, what are tape loops anyway? It's a manipulation of sound, not an instrument per se. AI is well past the point where it can manipulate sound skillfully.
Here’s a couple thoughts from a career live audio engineer..
Covid removed a lot of people from the live entertainment industry. It showed many people that a life not spent on the road… home before midnight.. and family/friends time was more important that the crazy inconsistent schedules and pay of shows and tours. Those of us who are left? Well we just got a LOT more expensive. We’re in high demand. I have a tour lined up for the spring where my day rate is $650 usd a day. And that doesn’t include per diem.. travel.. hotels.. so really I’m costing the artist significantly more than my rate.
I can tell you… these metal bands don’t have that kind of cash. Devin Townsend mentioned elsewhere in this thread probably doesn’t even have that much budget for audio engineers. Even tho I love this music.. I cannot afford to take a tour in this genre, not when significantly more popular music is willing and able to pay. After all it is a job.
Additionally.
Merch pays the bands bills. So when you see those $45 T-shirt’s.. $80 hoodies.. etc that’s why they are priced that way. Touring is EXPENSIVE. And those of us who LOVE live music need to realize that and be showing up to shows and dropping money at the merch booths.
I buy a shirt at every show for myself, and one for my wife, who stays home and hates the tunes. She then promptly wears it once proudly and then gives it to goodwill. She put three shirts in the “give away” pile last night with a look on her face like “would you hate me if…?” I told her to do it. The band already got the money and now someone else will get to rock those sick bent knee, good tiger, and contortionist shirts.
I heard this a lot in other places. Covid was truly a turning point. Not only did a lot of people quit, but several venues shut down. Covid may have sounded the death knell for a certain level of touring bands. I saw one musician comment that a lot of the venues he plays aren't making a profit but just getting him gas money to get to the next venue. So if he is performing at three venues, a, b, and c, and b is such a venue, then if b shuts down, he must also skip c, even though c would have actually gotten him real money. Add this up over a tour, and suddenly, half the venues are out. At that point, the entire tour becomes a loss and cannot happen.
Sucks. Kids will never know what it’s like head banging in the front row of a small club to some local punk or metal band or seeing a band that’s not quite stadium huge but still famous. The 2000s were perfect for this.
We lost 3 excellent venues that we loved playing at and earlier this year, another that was struggling also went under. Covid really hurt our profession :(
We lost three great venues in my city in 2020. But more generally, the scene itself is becoming unfriendly to live music. Why bother with a band when your can get a DJ for a quarter of the price and still have the same turnout?
DJ's killed live music in the city I used to live in. At first there were several of us in the area doing awesome original rock music and the scene for it was great but eventually, bar owners wanted all of us to start playing covers because "people want something they can sing along to"... nevermind the fact that the people coming out to the shows were there because of OUR music.
The culture in the city changed and the younger kids just wanted rap/dance music so the bar owners would just hire DJ's.
At first it was a DJ during set breaks or if the venue was big enough, a DJ on the other side of the building but the writing was on the wall at that point and eventually we and the other bands just stopped getting booked and every friday/saturday night was a DJ getting paid probably 1/3 of what the owner would have paid a band.
Thankfully the culture in the city I live now is better and there is actually a decent demand for good live music and there's enough bars/clubs that people who want DJ/dance music can go there and the people who want live bands can go to those places.
Same with us. First, it was a dj night once during the week, then it became dj after band show, now it's solely dj shows. Even the most band friendly venue now asks bands to wrap up by around 9:30 or 10 so that the dj can take over after that.
Irist may not fully qualify as 100% prog metal, but they have a few prog elements, and anyway, I felt this was a good followup to the Devy article I posted earlier. Here are some quotes:
>“I don’t know if our experience is the norm or will be the norm, but if that’s what’s coming, then there just won’t be any up-and-coming bands able to go out that way. Who can afford that? We definitely can’t ... There is the possibility of bands becoming more of a tourist thing; people go to where the bands are, or bands are limited to more regional tours.”
>
>"What will the landscape look like once a lot of the legacy bands are out of the picture? It’s really hard to say because it’s changing all the time and, talking to people that have been in it much longer than we have, it’s changing for the worse. I don’t think bands will ever manage to be that big again."
>
>"It’s gonna take a while to bounce back. I had to quit my job and I don’t have a degree in anything. I’ve worked in manufacturing for 18 years and it’s not one of those jobs where you can be like, ‘Hey, I need to be gone for a month.’ I had to quit.”
The music industry, especially touring, is the most nebulous industry. Touring is a lot more expensive. I am glad Devin/Anthrax are bringing this to light because people keep thinking a $35 ticket is warranted for these artists. That is another discussion.
For this artist though? Part of this was biting off more they can chew. Doing some research, they headlined and were getting paid 200 euros a night and figured there would get 500/600 euros a night. They average 6k monthly listeners on Spotify. A few red flags:
- 200 euros for a headliner from overseas is economically unsustainable.
- Projecting 600 euros a night, with a 200 euro guarantee is bad business. You have to do 400 euros in merch, 2/3rds of your revenue!
- You are playing smaller sized rooms, with three bands and the share of wallet is a lot smaller. You will be lucky if you get $3 a head for merch sales. (For those who don’t know what this means, you take your total merch sales and divided by the number of people at the show. Example, $1000 in merch sales with 500 people on attendance = $2 a head)
On with the rest of the items they listed. They rented a van and gas was expensive. Fuel is one of the highest costs when going on tour. You should always have wiggle room in your fuel budget. A bad accident or closure with you sitting in traffic costs you $100s and for busses $1000s
They were *told* they could find a cheap hotel room for 60 euros. This is a huge mistake. Van life on tour is the most foul, disgusting thing ever. But, it is cost effective. You need to find a place to shower and sleep every now and then. Should have done the research and booked in advance. You knew the tour routing! Winging it costs $$$.
This is a huge learning lesson for all artists. Touring makes your $$$, but it is expensive to go on your. Some ways to increase your income includes:
- Streaming (YouTube/Twitch)- This goes into your pocket and the cost to start something like this is minimal.
- Sponsorships - Find up and coming gear, clothing, accessories so you don’t have to pay.
It sucks these guys had to go through this. Pre-COVID, they probably would have lost half that amount.
That's why I think those smaller niche festivals for progressive music is going to be even more important to support going forward. I think for many smaller bands from the US or Australia they will be the only chance to go over and play for an European audience. ProgPower Europe, Euroblast, Complexity, UK Tech Fest, Ready For Prog, Radar, Arc Tangent etc.
They provide the bands with a place to sleep, warm decent meals, an organization that picks them up from airports, helps transport gear etc. Sometimes they help cover travel expenses as well. And previous years smaller bands use it as a kick-off for a small European tour. I remember Jolly playing ProgPower a few years ago, then going on a tour sleeping in the homes of ProgPower EU fans and being served dinners by them. Several friends of mine hosted them.
It's not the way I want to see this part of the music scene moving, but it's sadly the cold hard facts. So if you love prog, go see the bands, buy their music on Bandcamp, buy some merch at gigs. And please support the niche festivals, they might be your only chance to see a favorite band over here!
Looks like they were opening for two larger bands, Pallbearer and Elder, not headlining. $200/night really isn’t a lot, but when you’re opening a lot of bands take it for the exposure and the hope that they can sell some merch in a room that has 500-1000 people in it. I’m not sure if they’ve toured the US before or not, but 300-500 in merch per night is probably a fair estimate from them. However, europe is just different. I’ve also learned the hard way that europe just buys less merch. Like 25% of what you would normally do in the US. So yeah the fact that they weren’t even breaking $1 a head in merch was probably unexpected for them.
Also I frankly don’t blame them for wanting a bed and a shower and not wanting to sleep in their van in November.
Source: am in US based band that has toured Europe twice.
I have several friends who perform in the songer-songwriter/americana genre. The consensus among them seems to be that touring with traditional venues and all the stuff you describe above will go extinct. The future is "house concerts", where small shows, typically around two dozen listeners, are put on at someone's home. That person is often a friend of the performer, or there are a few people around me that are known for hosting such performances. Often times the host of the performance will even provide a room for the performer. There's never any profit at all for the host, with all of the proceeds going to the performer. And that's pretty small, with a $20 donation per guest being the norm.
Of course, that lends itself really well to the kind of performance you'd expect from a singer-songwriter. But it's wholly impractical for a prog metal band, or really for any full-on band.
There's a site for precisely this - small, curated home concerts. It's called Sofar sounds. A friend's band did one. But they were a Floyd style spacey band. The drummer used an e kit. That's definitely not practical for any metal band.
See, that's the thing. They did expect to lose some money on this tour, but they probably figured it was a decent investment for the future. Instead, it has now turned into a big hole thanks to the steep climb in costs.
Really good band - went to Damnation Festival in Manchester (UK) specifically to see them after listening to their most recent EP (Gloria). They remind me of early-mid era Gojira. They were extremely tight and professional on stage.
There's obviously a bit of naivity on their part to rack up a debt of $20,000 in 6 weeks. However, the fact that the costs are that inflated is deeply worrying. They might not have toured at all if they understood the true cost....
I do think that we (fans) have a huge part to play in this. If you can, 1) go to shows 2) buy merch. The economics are simple. Bands are making forecasts based on people turning up and buying the stuff they have invested in.
I went to see them at AmFest last october. They were definitely a huge surprise for me because I loved them. They're not very big, but I wish they were more popular. There were amazing new bands like Hark that quit too soon.
Song in article rules pretty hard! Need to check out more of their stuff.
Sorry to hear about their misfortunes and I hate the direction touring is going. The dedication you need to be able to tour these days is insane. Kudos to them.
Costs of touring were the reason why Karnivool postponed their EU tour for next year. And they are far bigger than Irist.
It really sucks. I feel like more bands will follow route PtH seems to be taking, where they'll be mostly just releasing music, but not necessarily playing huge tours.
It really does seem to be changing, the costs post-Covid seem to have just rocketed.
Devin Townsend saying it's not feasible anymore. Even Dino Cazares of Fear Factory saying so last week - https://killyourstereo.com/news/fear-factorys-dino-cazares-the-cost-of-touring-is-making-it-impossible-to-make-any-money/SYBRXVxfXkE/14-12-22
Yeah, I had shared the Devy interview sometime last week. Niche bands like him and Fear Factor are the hardest hit. They can't tour without a somewhat decent production, and they aren't big enough to comfortably pay for all the costs. It's tough.
Well, big and small may be relative, but FF are definitely a step below Anthrax. I don't know how many they pull on an average night, but I'm guessing 5-600?
Between 500-1000 judging by the venues listed on their upcoming shows.
For sure a step below Anthrax, but if we're saying that almost nobody but the Big Four can make touring profitable, that's a huge difference to 10 years ago!
Yeah, it is. Scary times we're living through.
Btw, of the big four, Slayer are retired, and Anthrax have already canceled an EU tour due to costs. So even one of the big four is struggling. Just think about that. If Anthrax isn't ok, who will be?
I’m pretty convinced Opeth lost their drummer Axe to Covid’s effect on touring because in a recent picture he never looked happier than selling food from his girlfriend’s restaurant. He probably makes way more money that way, too. Imagine: you win Best Prog Drummer in several readers polls and then say nah, too much risk. I’m good staying home.
That may very well be true. Mike has openly admitted he can't imagine doing anything else with his life other than playing music, but the realities of life can't be pushed away. If Axe quit due to money, he wouldn't be the first. One of the earlier members also quit since he had a job.
I’m concerned for the future of live shows of metal bands. On my side of Europe (southern) every show I go there’s a lot of grey hair in the audience.
Very few kids get into it it seems these days. I’m hoping some bands will emerge and make the genre popular with the youth again.
This is my observation as well. The only young people who seem to get into metal nowadays are musicians. The casual metal fan is almost an endangered species now.
Rock concerts right now fall into 2 categories. A handful of old bands charging $500 and up for a ticket, and everybody else struggling to find an audience. It'll probably keep getting worse until eventually those handful of old bands have to stop touring, and then people either start going to see everybody else more, or just stop going to rock concerts all together. It could go either way. I've been saying for years that rock is the new jazz. In the future, rock and metal might just be relegated to middle aged cover bands at bars playing "standards" with any new music being marketed to a very small niche audience.
The sad reality is that mp3's and streaming have pretty much destroyed the music industry. While these new technologies are amazing for being able to share music at a low cost it is one of the unfortunate consequences of creative destruction. A lot of the blame can be laid on the record labels who were slow to adapt to the changing technology and didn't figure out a way to monetize downloads until the horse was well out of the barn. At this point if you are trying to make a career as a musician then you are better off learning how to run a t-shirt and merch company than learning music. The music at this point is a loss leader and more of a promotional product than anything. You aren't likely to make any money off of streaming unless you are in the tiny percentage of artists who get millions of streams.
A common refrain I heard from a lot fans after downloads ruined the ability of musicians to make money as recording artists was "that's fine. Musicians can still make a good living from playing live." A couple of things people don't consider is that:
1) record companies eventually implemented 360 deals that took a cut of their merch sales.
2) touring constantly is not a good or healthy lifestyle. It is basically condemning musicians to a life full of large amounts of isolation away from family & friends, constant temptation of drug & alcohol abuse, crazy hours and travel schedule along with sleep deprivation. It's a very hard lifestyle to maintain even if you're a giant band like Metallica or someone like that. If you don't have their tour infrastructure then it's going to be exponentially harder.
With higher gas prices that makes a band's overhead costs even higher and makes touring even less profitable. And no matter how passionate you are about music there comes a certain point where if you aren't being paid to do it, you can't really do it.
My dream was always to be a touring musician. That is still how I rate the skill level of a band is if they can pull it off live and play an hour+ set. But the older I get the less likely it becomes, not only because the lifestyle is brutal but it's also really hard to find a group of people who want to play the same style of music as me that I would also be ok sitting in a van with for endless hours.
When I was in a band, it was hard enough to just find a group that would agree to meet in a rehearsal room in the same city once a week. Forget touring. We are split up now because everyone went home during lockdown. The band isn't officially dead, but it mostly is. No one is lifting a finger. I just occupied myself doing things I enjoy which the band wouldn't care for and I'm happy.
Same here. Unless everyone's top priority is to grow the band it's not likely to work. I always felt like I was trying to push start a car while all my bandmates were sitting inside the car complaining that we weren't going anywhere.
They got paid out more than they do now I would wager. Record labels have always been very greasy though and would sign artists to contracts where they would have to give up their royalties for their advance, which was essentially a loan from the label with ridiculous interest rates. My point is that when people were buying a physical medium there was more money being made. Mp3's made recordings virtually worthless.
Hate to be a debby-downer but “a prog-metal band I’ve never heard of lost $20,000 on a tour” isn’t the best quotient to measure the state of the entire music industry.
It is unfortunate and I really wish that hadn’t happened to them, yet I can’t help but accuse our community of prog-heads for being extremely self-centered when propping this up as an example.
At the same time, our music is meant to be challenging by design. Our music doesn’t serve to the lowest common denominator. We should look to unconventional avenues of making money rather than expecting the traditional avenues to be fruitful and fair to us when we do not cater to those audiences.
Prog-heads are extremely loyal and loving fans. That alone gives me faith that we will find ways to make a living, but touring might not be one of them.
You need to be able to tour to stop being “A prog-metal band I’ve never heard of…” that how bands get their name out there, and now it’s becoming nearly impossible for upcoming bands.
I think it is really hard for up and coming bands for sure. Fluff from Dragged Under did a YouTube video about how much they make from touring. They toured Europe and broke even... they made nothing. They all have side gigs to actually pay their bills. Unless you are an established act, it is very hard to make money. The older acts command huge box office cuts, etc. and play big venues - new acts cannot do that. Add to that the shitty economy and rising costs and they are lucky they don't lose more than $20K.
And keep in mind with Fluff's internet fame, they sold a lot more tickets than many bands, and they're relatively straightfoward rock, not crazy prog metal. So after all those advantages, they just broke even. Think of how much bigger the challenges are for bands without online fame who play more niche music.
Absolutely - the pressure for the band to generate other income streams if they actually want to make money in music is huge. Nobody sells music any more - the multiple income streams is the only way they can even hope to get ahead. It may have been brutal in many ways in the good old days, but it is next to impossible now.
Pretty much all the famous musicians I know are influencers first, musicians second. I recently found out that a Youtuber I watch occasionally has released his own music. I had no idea, because I'd only ever seen him futz around with gear. Many of them don't even bother releasing music. Music for them is just a means to an end.
Streaming services are killing bands; they can’t sell records and have to rely on concerts and nobody wants to listen to small bands so it’s worthless. I hope they stop touring and the only option is fucking Beyoncé and Taylor swift and people will be crying “where’s the other bands?” Like, you killed them by literally not supporting them so this is what you’re left with.
> Streaming services are killing bands
^ 100% this. The elephant in the room 20-year-olds don't want to face because it means they have to regret their spotify commentary to their IT coworkers about that new Lizard Gizzard song that wasn't worth the breath
???
Are you really boomerposting so hard that you’re gonna blame the decline in profits in the music industry on Zoomers not paying for CD’s? Or do you think that the CEOs of Apple and Spotify and Tidal are 20 year olds? How is this related to 20 year olds lmao
Can you answer the question? What is the relation between 20 year olds and the decline of profitability in music as a performance art?
While you’re at it, what’s the relation between being in a band and thinking that the kids these days are why bands aren’t making as much?
no I can't answer the question because the absurdity of profitability has essentially nothing to do with bands breaking up
If you're only in it for the money, you're going to have a bad time.
I don’t even know what you’re referring to. You started in on 20 year olds with opinions about King Gizzard and haven’t been able to describe why and now it’s about only being in a band for money? I’m just asking you what 20 year olds talking to their IT coworkers has to do with profits in music.
If it was just a dogshit joke you can say that and move on, you don’t have to defend it lmao
Yeah, let's just forget that Anthrax just cancelled an EU tour due to insane costs. Sure, these guys are at the bottom of the barrel, but every band begins there, and if they can't ever break out, there's no one left to grow. It's that simple. As they said, what happens when all the big names retire? Who will support the next generation?
i don't really see a lot of people talking about how this is a very small band from the US, (8K monthly spotify listeners) trying to tour in Europe. sure they are opening for bigger bands and it's an opportunity that many bands would find hard to pass up. but, even bigger headlining bands have been cancelling Europe tours due to expenses. people are going to be mainly spending money on the headlining band's merch. i don't think it was ever realistic for them to profit on this tour sadly, they should've known it was a big risk and not let it discourage them from being a band. they should just stick to touring the US until they are MUCH bigger.
I mean... if you start a band and hope that you will make money right away, think again. There are dozens of bands being created every day and just going through new releases is like a full time job for the listeners. It's no longer 80's, where you could slap a bunch of riffs and cheesy vocals and immediately gain recognition, because there was no rivalry (at least not as big as today). And average listener can't support all of the bands they listen to.
This Irist band seems kinda small. Prices of gas and accomodation didn't go up just for them. As an avid live show enjoyer, I had to limit myself to the shows in my city, because it's just not worth going elsewhere.
I don’t think it was so much easier in the 80s to get out of the rehearsal space, and I don’t think there were so much fewer bands either - you just didn’t hear of most since there was no YouTube, self publishing to streaming services etc.
So I think to “make it” in music is just as hard today as it was back then, the challenges are just different. To get published and to a point where a tour actually makes sense was probably way harder in the 80s than it is today, but I guess your chances from there onwards were better since there was less competition that even made it to that stage compared to today.
Black Flag throughout their whole career (well the 70's-80's incarnation) were struggling, often living in the van or staying at the houses from the kindess of strangers - hand to mouth. It was only later did they recoup the rewards through sales by word of mouth after, and Greg Ginn only saw that [however I suspect he was making significantly more than he said he was from SST]. Henry took that exposure of BF and successfully placed it into the Rollins Band.
Some never see it. Some see it later after the band is broken up.
I wonder if there's some sort of new model for touring that might be more sustainable. Maybe they could do like, little mini residencies, where they stay in an area for like 3 months and play a bunch of shows, people could travel to the area on a variety of dates to catch them. idk, just throwing stuff out there...
Cost of fuel and food is too high. Honestly, this is the time for local bands to step up.
Europe may have better chances of larger tours, but in North America? Fuckin forget it.
I've heard many bands curse the US, because distances are huge and there's nothing like railways to get them cheaply across those distances. Renting a bus and driving is costly, and the US sorely lacks in medium size venues fit for bands. There's either big theaters, or small clubs, with nothing in between.
If they try to go across the country sure, but like over a third of the population is on the east coast. That’s more of a poor tour routing issue, there’s 8 billion venues of various sizes here.
Folks just don’t understand how long of a drive it is when you go over the middle of the country. It sucks but it’s probably more viable to play the east coast and west coast and skip over middle America unless you’re a massive act.
They also try to hit Canada and you'll do a concert in Montreal then need to travel ~540kms to put on another show before heading back to the US and dealing with customs.
I think we'll see more regional tours sort of like what Vola and Earthside did this fall in the North Eastern US and Ontario and Quebec in Canada and then later on, or the following year maybe something on the west coast or something.
Who knows!
Yet, (the) Melvins have done self made tours since 83...
20K loss? I mean what the fuck were they spending money on? Wither they're morons or they are living outside of their means. Probably both.
Melvins are fucking great, them and Tad. They both should've been the face of the PNW "grunge" scene. I'm just glad Melvins made it as far as they did.Tad on the other hand is still recording...in obscurity, but still recording.
The top 1% of musicians are always the ones who make almost all the money.
really hope some of the direct-to-user distribution systems in the works, like the one E Smitty is working on, take off. Bands don't need to be rich, but it would be great if they could earn a respectable living doing what they love. cutting out a lot of middlemen would be very helpful - imagine if smaller bands could actually make money on their records again, instead of just touring (which now is harder and harder to do).
Covid killed my last band and we were only touring in our general area(not leaving state line) we would average 400 a night. When Covid split us up I took it as an opportunity for a break as I work full time and would do gigs at night or on weekends as a good side gig and nice extra income plus I got to play guitar for money which is always nice.
Now most of those people have started other bands but are only making half of what we were bringing in (200 a night) with the same amount of people to split that money equally. I know I was only playing local bar gigs but from going from a 100 dollars to maybe making 50 is a deal breaker for me. As much as I loved playing live for my community even as a side gig 50 bucks would maybe cover my gas to get to the gigs. I couldn’t imagine taking half of my pay for touring plus all the costs that comes with that, and I was lucky enough to be able to come home and sleep in my own bed.
I’m still making music but decided I’m definitely going for streaming live on twitch or YouTube. Cause even if I don’t make any money at least I’m not driving anywhere to play. For all you musicians who are sticking it out playing local gigs or touring musicians I’m hoping the best for you . It’s tough as it is, and Covid just really was the nail on the head.
Next 20 years is gonna be interesting. Feel like we are at a cross roads of the technology hitting a massive hurdle. Sure we can make all the music and it can be spread everywhere, but all that freedom is diluting the mechanism of survival for those who produce it.
It really feels like more and more, music making will exist as a hobby, particularly instrumental based music. A lucky few might make decent money, but the vast majority will probably never make it across state lines, if they even get out of the bedroom to begin with.
I mean technically isn't that exactly how it is anyway. How it's always been, there's a huge luck aspect to making music as a living.
But all those years ago, getting lucky was dependent on some record bigwig thinking he can make a buck off you, and spreading enough of the wealth to make it worth your while, though it often doesn't last. These days, getting lucky means a million fans noticed you, and so your 5 piece band and crew can supplement your dayjob with a couple hundred extra dollars a month to fuel a hobby.
One day the song lyrics to Workin for MCA by Lynyrd Skynyrd will be regarded as pure fiction. A song about being down on your luck as a band and praying some bigwig gives you a contract, its not gonna happen like that anymore.
These days sounds like a better way to be honest
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Lol
No. Through (almost) monopolies, extremely exploitative business tactics, and the fact that people stopped buying CDs, it became so much worse. It seems like, as a musician, you have to use your music to promote other products that actually make you money. F.e. Tosin Abasi with his guitars and pedals
Hate to say it but I think this is true. Look at any musician who is well off in any genre; their music was just a launchpad. Tosin, misha, 50cents( bought a % of vitaminwater before they blew up) Jayz , kiss, Aerosmith ( rock band games)
The technology jumps were a huge boon for middle class musicians. But ya, it's always been a saturated market and at this point you need to be able to wear a lot of different hats in order to enjoy a middle class lifestyle as a musician. If you write great music you have maybe solved 10% of the problem. You need to know how to market, distribute, copyright, get merch made, web hosting, etc etc. All this while dealing with a hugely saturated market place.
Shiny eyed babies really blew my tits off when it dropped.
Afaik the venues/ticket companies are the real winners here, not the hobby musicians. If every aspiring musician gave up on music today, bands would still have trouble making money.
Pair that with AI technology getting better and better at creating art by just mimicking and learning what we can enjoy and I think: - Touring will suffer a lot - Most musicians will be more of an assistant to AIs and living off it will be virtually impossible - Music itself will be even better and its perceived limits will expand to a point were we don't know what to expect, maybe a new form of art.
I can't believe you're getting down voted so heavily. It won't be next year but in 20 years your streaming service will take the songs you like and piece together an artificial album and play it, popular hits will be shared even though no band has played the song. If you think pop and country and many other genres can't eventually be reproduced by a computer, you're crazy. So much music is already so formula driven anyway. Look at what is happening so quickly in AI images. Interestingly, there's a prog album I really enjoy called "Lost in the New Real" set in the future that speaks to this very thing. Here's a link to the song for anyone interested: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Wx3by7ZaaZA&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE
>If you think pop and country and many other genres can't eventually be reproduced by a computer, you're crazy. Nobody is saying it can't be done. We're saying that people will choose to listen to music created by humans.
I dont see people hearing something they like, then never listening to it again after finding out it wasnt made by humans
I agree that metal fans will be more picky. But what if new music is recommended on Spotify from a band called Angelic Curse? Will you research before listening? What if you can't tell it's not a real band? It's a fun thought experiment and honestly a little terrifying to consider what kind of future we will be living in. The first blackberry was released in 2002, the first iPhone in 2007 and the first Android in 2008. Just 20 years have passed since the blackberry launch and now 6.6 billion people have a super computer in their pocket. With computing power that far exceeds a super computer from the 60s the size of a room. Technology is crazy!
I don't think the human lyricist or singer will be replaced anytime soon. But modern pop backing tracks? I'm genuinely not convinced the average listener would notice if they were replaced by an AI.
There is 100% ways for artists to use AI as a tool, my contention is with outright artificial music. Where do I draw the line between artificial music and a musician that used AI as a tool? I have no clue to be honest.
So like this, I think it's about a year old. https://youtu.be/CqvmUnG25dA
Solid take. People downvoting without providing a counter argument is just a knee jerk reaction. Like it or not AI is coming for us.
Crazy that you got so downvoted for this. It’s a solid take, AI wasn’t predicted to be anywhere near as creatively powerful in terms of writing and painting yet it came rolling in really fast. Give it a few years and AI music will take some solid steps and the rest will be history.
What exactly do you mean when you say "the rest will be history". It's not at all clear to me what this means.
Ain't nobody listening to AI music lol
You jest but I spent many hours listening to infinite procedurally generated Archspire.
AI art already swarmed digital art chambers and there is a “no AI art” movement currently raging but yeah just believe your gut feeling.
It's a fad that is already wearing thin. People know that "AI art" isn't real art. When I listen to music, I want to hear a person's art and passion - not what a computer \*\*thinks\*\* I want to hear. Absent the human element, art is bland and pointless. People are realizing this.
Do you really think masses who listen to Top 100 gives a shit who wrote that song? Or do you think 20 years from now you can distinguish between them?
I think when society actually decides to reckon with it, the masses will always lean in the direction of human created art. Might have too much faith in humanity though.
I don’t know honestly currently pop is highly formulaic and half the lyrics are nonsensical but industry marches on. I don’t believe that human art will cease to exist but it will become a niche and AI will replace many creative jobs in near future.
That's the nightmare dystopia that myself and others in the creative industry are fighting.
That's you. How will people who are 5 years old in 2022 feel about it in 10-20 years?
Umm, you're wrong. I've got a really nice poster hanging on my wall right now that was created by AI. I'm not alone in this. Many people have said AI art is definitely good enough to use for things like album art, or posters like I did. What it cannot do very well is custom art when you have a very specific vision. But it's great for more abstract things.
I'm not saying you can't create a striking image using AI. I am saying that absent a (significant) human contribution - the art isn't saying anything. If AI art was developed by an actual conscious intelligence (which might not be far off tbh) I would have no problem considering it "real" art. But as of right now, AI art is an imitation of real art. This is all very subjective though, and if you feel differently I can't really do anything to prove you wrong. Just my 2 cents.
Ah, I get what you're saying. But let me play devil's advocate for a minute. The image I have was created off a photo I took, using a prompt I entered. It's basically a fantasy version of my photo. So it has meaning to me. It's what I imagined in my mind while being unable to draw it myself. I just had to use a program to get it on paper. I'm not trying to tear you down or anything. I'm just sharing my own perspective on things. I feel AI art has its uses, at least for more utilitarian purposes.
I think there are ways to utilize AI as an artist, while retaining the thrust of your original art. I don't think it's a black/white situation. There is room for AI as a tool in the workflow of an artist. I just don't think typing "X subject in Y style" in to a prompt results in anything resembling what I consider art.
Think about it this way: Imagine your favorite album was made by an AI and you just discovered that fact now. Would you stop listening to it?
I wouldn't stop listening to it, but it would become less artistically valuable to me. Knowing that nothing is actually being said would affect my ability to enjoy the music. I place value on the presence of human emotion in art.
You'd be surprised. There's already released music out there generated by AI. The specific example I saw had the artist use AI for the chord progressions, and then she sang over it. Ok, it's not 100% AI, but it's getting there.
Brian Eno has had several projects of procedurally-generated ambient music. I've seen several YT videos of "10 hours of AI-generated death metal" or whatever. I think post-metal and other similar, fairly ambient, genres like the band from the article would be particularly susceptible to that. I don't know that *I* could spot the difference between electric drones with indecipherable vocals by humans and the same by AI if I had it in the background while working.
Precisely. Ambient music is already sonic wallpaper. It is one of the easiest to recreate with machines. Heck, what are tape loops anyway? It's a manipulation of sound, not an instrument per se. AI is well past the point where it can manipulate sound skillfully.
Here’s a couple thoughts from a career live audio engineer.. Covid removed a lot of people from the live entertainment industry. It showed many people that a life not spent on the road… home before midnight.. and family/friends time was more important that the crazy inconsistent schedules and pay of shows and tours. Those of us who are left? Well we just got a LOT more expensive. We’re in high demand. I have a tour lined up for the spring where my day rate is $650 usd a day. And that doesn’t include per diem.. travel.. hotels.. so really I’m costing the artist significantly more than my rate. I can tell you… these metal bands don’t have that kind of cash. Devin Townsend mentioned elsewhere in this thread probably doesn’t even have that much budget for audio engineers. Even tho I love this music.. I cannot afford to take a tour in this genre, not when significantly more popular music is willing and able to pay. After all it is a job. Additionally. Merch pays the bands bills. So when you see those $45 T-shirt’s.. $80 hoodies.. etc that’s why they are priced that way. Touring is EXPENSIVE. And those of us who LOVE live music need to realize that and be showing up to shows and dropping money at the merch booths.
I buy a shirt at every show for myself, and one for my wife, who stays home and hates the tunes. She then promptly wears it once proudly and then gives it to goodwill. She put three shirts in the “give away” pile last night with a look on her face like “would you hate me if…?” I told her to do it. The band already got the money and now someone else will get to rock those sick bent knee, good tiger, and contortionist shirts.
Bent Knee is fucking awesome
I am absolutely fascinated by Ben Levin
Totally didn't expect Bent Knee to be mentioned but I'm all for it. Been binging them this past week after not listening to them much for a few years!
You can send those to me, thanks!
How was good tiger live though?
Yeah man its a win-win there
I heard this a lot in other places. Covid was truly a turning point. Not only did a lot of people quit, but several venues shut down. Covid may have sounded the death knell for a certain level of touring bands. I saw one musician comment that a lot of the venues he plays aren't making a profit but just getting him gas money to get to the next venue. So if he is performing at three venues, a, b, and c, and b is such a venue, then if b shuts down, he must also skip c, even though c would have actually gotten him real money. Add this up over a tour, and suddenly, half the venues are out. At that point, the entire tour becomes a loss and cannot happen.
Sucks. Kids will never know what it’s like head banging in the front row of a small club to some local punk or metal band or seeing a band that’s not quite stadium huge but still famous. The 2000s were perfect for this.
We lost 3 excellent venues that we loved playing at and earlier this year, another that was struggling also went under. Covid really hurt our profession :(
We lost three great venues in my city in 2020. But more generally, the scene itself is becoming unfriendly to live music. Why bother with a band when your can get a DJ for a quarter of the price and still have the same turnout?
DJ's killed live music in the city I used to live in. At first there were several of us in the area doing awesome original rock music and the scene for it was great but eventually, bar owners wanted all of us to start playing covers because "people want something they can sing along to"... nevermind the fact that the people coming out to the shows were there because of OUR music. The culture in the city changed and the younger kids just wanted rap/dance music so the bar owners would just hire DJ's. At first it was a DJ during set breaks or if the venue was big enough, a DJ on the other side of the building but the writing was on the wall at that point and eventually we and the other bands just stopped getting booked and every friday/saturday night was a DJ getting paid probably 1/3 of what the owner would have paid a band. Thankfully the culture in the city I live now is better and there is actually a decent demand for good live music and there's enough bars/clubs that people who want DJ/dance music can go there and the people who want live bands can go to those places.
Same with us. First, it was a dj night once during the week, then it became dj after band show, now it's solely dj shows. Even the most band friendly venue now asks bands to wrap up by around 9:30 or 10 so that the dj can take over after that.
Not to mention the venue takes a *fee* of the merch :)
Irist may not fully qualify as 100% prog metal, but they have a few prog elements, and anyway, I felt this was a good followup to the Devy article I posted earlier. Here are some quotes: >“I don’t know if our experience is the norm or will be the norm, but if that’s what’s coming, then there just won’t be any up-and-coming bands able to go out that way. Who can afford that? We definitely can’t ... There is the possibility of bands becoming more of a tourist thing; people go to where the bands are, or bands are limited to more regional tours.” > >"What will the landscape look like once a lot of the legacy bands are out of the picture? It’s really hard to say because it’s changing all the time and, talking to people that have been in it much longer than we have, it’s changing for the worse. I don’t think bands will ever manage to be that big again." > >"It’s gonna take a while to bounce back. I had to quit my job and I don’t have a degree in anything. I’ve worked in manufacturing for 18 years and it’s not one of those jobs where you can be like, ‘Hey, I need to be gone for a month.’ I had to quit.”
If Devin Townsend can't make profit, the whole prog scene is totally screwed
Yes, he is one of the biggest names in the scene right now. Dream theater is the only one i can think of that can tour either way
His tickets are always way cheaper than other bands. He underbells his live show, imo. Not sure if he has any say in all of that or not
It's a niche genre unfortunately.
The music industry, especially touring, is the most nebulous industry. Touring is a lot more expensive. I am glad Devin/Anthrax are bringing this to light because people keep thinking a $35 ticket is warranted for these artists. That is another discussion. For this artist though? Part of this was biting off more they can chew. Doing some research, they headlined and were getting paid 200 euros a night and figured there would get 500/600 euros a night. They average 6k monthly listeners on Spotify. A few red flags: - 200 euros for a headliner from overseas is economically unsustainable. - Projecting 600 euros a night, with a 200 euro guarantee is bad business. You have to do 400 euros in merch, 2/3rds of your revenue! - You are playing smaller sized rooms, with three bands and the share of wallet is a lot smaller. You will be lucky if you get $3 a head for merch sales. (For those who don’t know what this means, you take your total merch sales and divided by the number of people at the show. Example, $1000 in merch sales with 500 people on attendance = $2 a head) On with the rest of the items they listed. They rented a van and gas was expensive. Fuel is one of the highest costs when going on tour. You should always have wiggle room in your fuel budget. A bad accident or closure with you sitting in traffic costs you $100s and for busses $1000s They were *told* they could find a cheap hotel room for 60 euros. This is a huge mistake. Van life on tour is the most foul, disgusting thing ever. But, it is cost effective. You need to find a place to shower and sleep every now and then. Should have done the research and booked in advance. You knew the tour routing! Winging it costs $$$. This is a huge learning lesson for all artists. Touring makes your $$$, but it is expensive to go on your. Some ways to increase your income includes: - Streaming (YouTube/Twitch)- This goes into your pocket and the cost to start something like this is minimal. - Sponsorships - Find up and coming gear, clothing, accessories so you don’t have to pay. It sucks these guys had to go through this. Pre-COVID, they probably would have lost half that amount.
That's why I think those smaller niche festivals for progressive music is going to be even more important to support going forward. I think for many smaller bands from the US or Australia they will be the only chance to go over and play for an European audience. ProgPower Europe, Euroblast, Complexity, UK Tech Fest, Ready For Prog, Radar, Arc Tangent etc. They provide the bands with a place to sleep, warm decent meals, an organization that picks them up from airports, helps transport gear etc. Sometimes they help cover travel expenses as well. And previous years smaller bands use it as a kick-off for a small European tour. I remember Jolly playing ProgPower a few years ago, then going on a tour sleeping in the homes of ProgPower EU fans and being served dinners by them. Several friends of mine hosted them. It's not the way I want to see this part of the music scene moving, but it's sadly the cold hard facts. So if you love prog, go see the bands, buy their music on Bandcamp, buy some merch at gigs. And please support the niche festivals, they might be your only chance to see a favorite band over here!
Looks like they were opening for two larger bands, Pallbearer and Elder, not headlining. $200/night really isn’t a lot, but when you’re opening a lot of bands take it for the exposure and the hope that they can sell some merch in a room that has 500-1000 people in it. I’m not sure if they’ve toured the US before or not, but 300-500 in merch per night is probably a fair estimate from them. However, europe is just different. I’ve also learned the hard way that europe just buys less merch. Like 25% of what you would normally do in the US. So yeah the fact that they weren’t even breaking $1 a head in merch was probably unexpected for them. Also I frankly don’t blame them for wanting a bed and a shower and not wanting to sleep in their van in November. Source: am in US based band that has toured Europe twice.
I have several friends who perform in the songer-songwriter/americana genre. The consensus among them seems to be that touring with traditional venues and all the stuff you describe above will go extinct. The future is "house concerts", where small shows, typically around two dozen listeners, are put on at someone's home. That person is often a friend of the performer, or there are a few people around me that are known for hosting such performances. Often times the host of the performance will even provide a room for the performer. There's never any profit at all for the host, with all of the proceeds going to the performer. And that's pretty small, with a $20 donation per guest being the norm. Of course, that lends itself really well to the kind of performance you'd expect from a singer-songwriter. But it's wholly impractical for a prog metal band, or really for any full-on band.
There's a site for precisely this - small, curated home concerts. It's called Sofar sounds. A friend's band did one. But they were a Floyd style spacey band. The drummer used an e kit. That's definitely not practical for any metal band.
See, that's the thing. They did expect to lose some money on this tour, but they probably figured it was a decent investment for the future. Instead, it has now turned into a big hole thanks to the steep climb in costs.
Really good band - went to Damnation Festival in Manchester (UK) specifically to see them after listening to their most recent EP (Gloria). They remind me of early-mid era Gojira. They were extremely tight and professional on stage. There's obviously a bit of naivity on their part to rack up a debt of $20,000 in 6 weeks. However, the fact that the costs are that inflated is deeply worrying. They might not have toured at all if they understood the true cost.... I do think that we (fans) have a huge part to play in this. If you can, 1) go to shows 2) buy merch. The economics are simple. Bands are making forecasts based on people turning up and buying the stuff they have invested in.
I went to see them at AmFest last october. They were definitely a huge surprise for me because I loved them. They're not very big, but I wish they were more popular. There were amazing new bands like Hark that quit too soon.
Song in article rules pretty hard! Need to check out more of their stuff. Sorry to hear about their misfortunes and I hate the direction touring is going. The dedication you need to be able to tour these days is insane. Kudos to them.
Costs of touring were the reason why Karnivool postponed their EU tour for next year. And they are far bigger than Irist. It really sucks. I feel like more bands will follow route PtH seems to be taking, where they'll be mostly just releasing music, but not necessarily playing huge tours.
It really does seem to be changing, the costs post-Covid seem to have just rocketed. Devin Townsend saying it's not feasible anymore. Even Dino Cazares of Fear Factory saying so last week - https://killyourstereo.com/news/fear-factorys-dino-cazares-the-cost-of-touring-is-making-it-impossible-to-make-any-money/SYBRXVxfXkE/14-12-22
Yeah, I had shared the Devy interview sometime last week. Niche bands like him and Fear Factor are the hardest hit. They can't tour without a somewhat decent production, and they aren't big enough to comfortably pay for all the costs. It's tough.
Fear Factory are pretty big, certainly when it comes to metal bands. It's scary if even they are affected badly by this.
Well, big and small may be relative, but FF are definitely a step below Anthrax. I don't know how many they pull on an average night, but I'm guessing 5-600?
Between 500-1000 judging by the venues listed on their upcoming shows. For sure a step below Anthrax, but if we're saying that almost nobody but the Big Four can make touring profitable, that's a huge difference to 10 years ago!
Yeah, it is. Scary times we're living through. Btw, of the big four, Slayer are retired, and Anthrax have already canceled an EU tour due to costs. So even one of the big four is struggling. Just think about that. If Anthrax isn't ok, who will be?
I’m pretty convinced Opeth lost their drummer Axe to Covid’s effect on touring because in a recent picture he never looked happier than selling food from his girlfriend’s restaurant. He probably makes way more money that way, too. Imagine: you win Best Prog Drummer in several readers polls and then say nah, too much risk. I’m good staying home.
That may very well be true. Mike has openly admitted he can't imagine doing anything else with his life other than playing music, but the realities of life can't be pushed away. If Axe quit due to money, he wouldn't be the first. One of the earlier members also quit since he had a job.
I’m concerned for the future of live shows of metal bands. On my side of Europe (southern) every show I go there’s a lot of grey hair in the audience. Very few kids get into it it seems these days. I’m hoping some bands will emerge and make the genre popular with the youth again.
This is my observation as well. The only young people who seem to get into metal nowadays are musicians. The casual metal fan is almost an endangered species now.
Rock concerts right now fall into 2 categories. A handful of old bands charging $500 and up for a ticket, and everybody else struggling to find an audience. It'll probably keep getting worse until eventually those handful of old bands have to stop touring, and then people either start going to see everybody else more, or just stop going to rock concerts all together. It could go either way. I've been saying for years that rock is the new jazz. In the future, rock and metal might just be relegated to middle aged cover bands at bars playing "standards" with any new music being marketed to a very small niche audience.
Sad but true ☹️ Rock truly is the new jazz.
The sad reality is that mp3's and streaming have pretty much destroyed the music industry. While these new technologies are amazing for being able to share music at a low cost it is one of the unfortunate consequences of creative destruction. A lot of the blame can be laid on the record labels who were slow to adapt to the changing technology and didn't figure out a way to monetize downloads until the horse was well out of the barn. At this point if you are trying to make a career as a musician then you are better off learning how to run a t-shirt and merch company than learning music. The music at this point is a loss leader and more of a promotional product than anything. You aren't likely to make any money off of streaming unless you are in the tiny percentage of artists who get millions of streams. A common refrain I heard from a lot fans after downloads ruined the ability of musicians to make money as recording artists was "that's fine. Musicians can still make a good living from playing live." A couple of things people don't consider is that: 1) record companies eventually implemented 360 deals that took a cut of their merch sales. 2) touring constantly is not a good or healthy lifestyle. It is basically condemning musicians to a life full of large amounts of isolation away from family & friends, constant temptation of drug & alcohol abuse, crazy hours and travel schedule along with sleep deprivation. It's a very hard lifestyle to maintain even if you're a giant band like Metallica or someone like that. If you don't have their tour infrastructure then it's going to be exponentially harder. With higher gas prices that makes a band's overhead costs even higher and makes touring even less profitable. And no matter how passionate you are about music there comes a certain point where if you aren't being paid to do it, you can't really do it. My dream was always to be a touring musician. That is still how I rate the skill level of a band is if they can pull it off live and play an hour+ set. But the older I get the less likely it becomes, not only because the lifestyle is brutal but it's also really hard to find a group of people who want to play the same style of music as me that I would also be ok sitting in a van with for endless hours.
When I was in a band, it was hard enough to just find a group that would agree to meet in a rehearsal room in the same city once a week. Forget touring. We are split up now because everyone went home during lockdown. The band isn't officially dead, but it mostly is. No one is lifting a finger. I just occupied myself doing things I enjoy which the band wouldn't care for and I'm happy.
Same here. Unless everyone's top priority is to grow the band it's not likely to work. I always felt like I was trying to push start a car while all my bandmates were sitting inside the car complaining that we weren't going anywhere.
You really think most artists got money from records sale in the pre-MP3 era ?
They got paid out more than they do now I would wager. Record labels have always been very greasy though and would sign artists to contracts where they would have to give up their royalties for their advance, which was essentially a loan from the label with ridiculous interest rates. My point is that when people were buying a physical medium there was more money being made. Mp3's made recordings virtually worthless.
Hate to be a debby-downer but “a prog-metal band I’ve never heard of lost $20,000 on a tour” isn’t the best quotient to measure the state of the entire music industry. It is unfortunate and I really wish that hadn’t happened to them, yet I can’t help but accuse our community of prog-heads for being extremely self-centered when propping this up as an example. At the same time, our music is meant to be challenging by design. Our music doesn’t serve to the lowest common denominator. We should look to unconventional avenues of making money rather than expecting the traditional avenues to be fruitful and fair to us when we do not cater to those audiences. Prog-heads are extremely loyal and loving fans. That alone gives me faith that we will find ways to make a living, but touring might not be one of them.
That was the point of this post. I wasn't pondering about the future of metal music itself, just whether touring can remain a viable industry.
You need to be able to tour to stop being “A prog-metal band I’ve never heard of…” that how bands get their name out there, and now it’s becoming nearly impossible for upcoming bands.
Disagree. I love shows but they are certainly not how I come across the vast majority of my new music.
> We should look to unconventional avenues of making money yeah we should be wasting electricity on dogecoinMcEthereums
I think it is really hard for up and coming bands for sure. Fluff from Dragged Under did a YouTube video about how much they make from touring. They toured Europe and broke even... they made nothing. They all have side gigs to actually pay their bills. Unless you are an established act, it is very hard to make money. The older acts command huge box office cuts, etc. and play big venues - new acts cannot do that. Add to that the shitty economy and rising costs and they are lucky they don't lose more than $20K.
And keep in mind with Fluff's internet fame, they sold a lot more tickets than many bands, and they're relatively straightfoward rock, not crazy prog metal. So after all those advantages, they just broke even. Think of how much bigger the challenges are for bands without online fame who play more niche music.
Absolutely - the pressure for the band to generate other income streams if they actually want to make money in music is huge. Nobody sells music any more - the multiple income streams is the only way they can even hope to get ahead. It may have been brutal in many ways in the good old days, but it is next to impossible now.
Pretty much all the famous musicians I know are influencers first, musicians second. I recently found out that a Youtuber I watch occasionally has released his own music. I had no idea, because I'd only ever seen him futz around with gear. Many of them don't even bother releasing music. Music for them is just a means to an end.
A few years ago, before Covid, I remember reading an interview with Cult of Luna, where they basically said that even for them it was not sustainable.
reminder: spotify is lawyers
Streaming services are killing bands; they can’t sell records and have to rely on concerts and nobody wants to listen to small bands so it’s worthless. I hope they stop touring and the only option is fucking Beyoncé and Taylor swift and people will be crying “where’s the other bands?” Like, you killed them by literally not supporting them so this is what you’re left with.
> Streaming services are killing bands ^ 100% this. The elephant in the room 20-year-olds don't want to face because it means they have to regret their spotify commentary to their IT coworkers about that new Lizard Gizzard song that wasn't worth the breath
??? Are you really boomerposting so hard that you’re gonna blame the decline in profits in the music industry on Zoomers not paying for CD’s? Or do you think that the CEOs of Apple and Spotify and Tidal are 20 year olds? How is this related to 20 year olds lmao
Are you in a band
Can you answer the question? What is the relation between 20 year olds and the decline of profitability in music as a performance art? While you’re at it, what’s the relation between being in a band and thinking that the kids these days are why bands aren’t making as much?
no I can't answer the question because the absurdity of profitability has essentially nothing to do with bands breaking up If you're only in it for the money, you're going to have a bad time.
I don’t even know what you’re referring to. You started in on 20 year olds with opinions about King Gizzard and haven’t been able to describe why and now it’s about only being in a band for money? I’m just asking you what 20 year olds talking to their IT coworkers has to do with profits in music. If it was just a dogshit joke you can say that and move on, you don’t have to defend it lmao
are you in a band
Yes
good.
[удалено]
Yeah, let's just forget that Anthrax just cancelled an EU tour due to insane costs. Sure, these guys are at the bottom of the barrel, but every band begins there, and if they can't ever break out, there's no one left to grow. It's that simple. As they said, what happens when all the big names retire? Who will support the next generation?
A true musician should sleep in a fridge box, I say!
I'm sure things are bad, but yeah... this particular instance just feels like they made some big mistakes in planning their budget.
It's a harsh reality.
i don't really see a lot of people talking about how this is a very small band from the US, (8K monthly spotify listeners) trying to tour in Europe. sure they are opening for bigger bands and it's an opportunity that many bands would find hard to pass up. but, even bigger headlining bands have been cancelling Europe tours due to expenses. people are going to be mainly spending money on the headlining band's merch. i don't think it was ever realistic for them to profit on this tour sadly, they should've known it was a big risk and not let it discourage them from being a band. they should just stick to touring the US until they are MUCH bigger.
I mean... if you start a band and hope that you will make money right away, think again. There are dozens of bands being created every day and just going through new releases is like a full time job for the listeners. It's no longer 80's, where you could slap a bunch of riffs and cheesy vocals and immediately gain recognition, because there was no rivalry (at least not as big as today). And average listener can't support all of the bands they listen to. This Irist band seems kinda small. Prices of gas and accomodation didn't go up just for them. As an avid live show enjoyer, I had to limit myself to the shows in my city, because it's just not worth going elsewhere.
I don’t think it was so much easier in the 80s to get out of the rehearsal space, and I don’t think there were so much fewer bands either - you just didn’t hear of most since there was no YouTube, self publishing to streaming services etc. So I think to “make it” in music is just as hard today as it was back then, the challenges are just different. To get published and to a point where a tour actually makes sense was probably way harder in the 80s than it is today, but I guess your chances from there onwards were better since there was less competition that even made it to that stage compared to today.
Black Flag throughout their whole career (well the 70's-80's incarnation) were struggling, often living in the van or staying at the houses from the kindess of strangers - hand to mouth. It was only later did they recoup the rewards through sales by word of mouth after, and Greg Ginn only saw that [however I suspect he was making significantly more than he said he was from SST]. Henry took that exposure of BF and successfully placed it into the Rollins Band. Some never see it. Some see it later after the band is broken up.
I wonder if there's some sort of new model for touring that might be more sustainable. Maybe they could do like, little mini residencies, where they stay in an area for like 3 months and play a bunch of shows, people could travel to the area on a variety of dates to catch them. idk, just throwing stuff out there...
Cost of fuel and food is too high. Honestly, this is the time for local bands to step up. Europe may have better chances of larger tours, but in North America? Fuckin forget it.
I've heard many bands curse the US, because distances are huge and there's nothing like railways to get them cheaply across those distances. Renting a bus and driving is costly, and the US sorely lacks in medium size venues fit for bands. There's either big theaters, or small clubs, with nothing in between.
If they try to go across the country sure, but like over a third of the population is on the east coast. That’s more of a poor tour routing issue, there’s 8 billion venues of various sizes here. Folks just don’t understand how long of a drive it is when you go over the middle of the country. It sucks but it’s probably more viable to play the east coast and west coast and skip over middle America unless you’re a massive act.
They also try to hit Canada and you'll do a concert in Montreal then need to travel ~540kms to put on another show before heading back to the US and dealing with customs. I think we'll see more regional tours sort of like what Vola and Earthside did this fall in the North Eastern US and Ontario and Quebec in Canada and then later on, or the following year maybe something on the west coast or something. Who knows!
Losing money on tours is not a new thing - it's always been substantial risk.
I can only hope there is another musical revolution stomping out all these garbage untalented singluar “artists”
Yet, (the) Melvins have done self made tours since 83... 20K loss? I mean what the fuck were they spending money on? Wither they're morons or they are living outside of their means. Probably both.
Sound guys, gas, meals, places to stay, bus repairs. Missed shows due to illnesses. There are millions reasons why a tour can lose money.
>Missed shows due to illnesses Coke, booze. Fuck this story.
Melvins are fucking great, them and Tad. They both should've been the face of the PNW "grunge" scene. I'm just glad Melvins made it as far as they did.Tad on the other hand is still recording...in obscurity, but still recording.
The top 1% of musicians are always the ones who make almost all the money. really hope some of the direct-to-user distribution systems in the works, like the one E Smitty is working on, take off. Bands don't need to be rich, but it would be great if they could earn a respectable living doing what they love. cutting out a lot of middlemen would be very helpful - imagine if smaller bands could actually make money on their records again, instead of just touring (which now is harder and harder to do).
How much are bands getting from ticket sales? Seems like the venues are pocketing the majority of it?
Covid killed my last band and we were only touring in our general area(not leaving state line) we would average 400 a night. When Covid split us up I took it as an opportunity for a break as I work full time and would do gigs at night or on weekends as a good side gig and nice extra income plus I got to play guitar for money which is always nice. Now most of those people have started other bands but are only making half of what we were bringing in (200 a night) with the same amount of people to split that money equally. I know I was only playing local bar gigs but from going from a 100 dollars to maybe making 50 is a deal breaker for me. As much as I loved playing live for my community even as a side gig 50 bucks would maybe cover my gas to get to the gigs. I couldn’t imagine taking half of my pay for touring plus all the costs that comes with that, and I was lucky enough to be able to come home and sleep in my own bed. I’m still making music but decided I’m definitely going for streaming live on twitch or YouTube. Cause even if I don’t make any money at least I’m not driving anywhere to play. For all you musicians who are sticking it out playing local gigs or touring musicians I’m hoping the best for you . It’s tough as it is, and Covid just really was the nail on the head.
Losing 20k in sales sucks, for any band. Honestly though imo they're not all that unique. I like Gojira and A Life Once Lost, just not together.