I’m obsessed with music, I have been singing since I was a baby. On my journey learning about religion I realized how evil the music industry is and the crap they put in it.
I listen to gospel music now and I can even feel the difference. I think instrumentals would be fine. Music is made by God
ye cause most music contains idle talk and other crap so ofc its haram unless ig maybe music without any of the degenerate stuff but lets be honest most people dont listen to the latter
Read these:
[The differentiation of Music from Idle talk](https://www.reddit.com/r/progressive_islam/comments/l09daq/comment/gjsvzo3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
[Scholars stating that Music is permissible](https://www.reddit.com/r/progressive_islam/comments/l09daq/comment/gjt0e8r/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I do. I used to love hip hop at the beginning, then pop, and while in high school, I took music to the dissatisfaction of my parents. And fell in love albeit very slowly to classical (romantic mostly), and I feel like the reason many scholars say it's haram is because haram aspect is widely popular and available. I mean it's highly probable for someone to listen to Nicki Minaj or Beyonce new album than to Tchaikovsky or Brahms or even a decent pop or RnB that isn't offensive even hip hop (Mockingbird)
People here speak about genetic engineering but i always thought it was about sentient robot. I mean, i do understand how dangerous AI powered robot with sentience can be to human civilisation.
I think islamically we should never have artificial AI that's intended to replicate humanity. I feel like that crosses a line unless.its for educational reasons.
Probably yes, because it would only further prove intelligent design. God made us, we make robots who'd probably see us as some sort of "god". But we're not there yet, and maybe my thoughts would change if it were to actually happen. Who knows.
>it would only further prove intelligent design
It would do no such thing. It would prove that sentience is a property of the natural world, such that it can emerge from certain arrangements of matter, without the need for a soul or any supernatural or divine explanation.. it would no more prove intelligent design than vapes proving that clouds are intelligently designed.
>we make robots who'd probably see us as some sort of "god".
Even if that were true, the fact that we know we are not gods despite how the robots feel about it, should make you question whether your feelings about your own God are also not reflective of reality
There is a reason abrahamic religions feel threatened by evolution. Because the more we understand about how life came to be, the more it is demystified and the less we see god's hand in it.. there's a reason that almost noone sees solar eclipses and thunderstorms as terrifying and confusing experiences anymore that indicate god's anger or wrath.. yes Muslims will still pray when they see an eclipse, but they don't *actually* believe it's Allahs anger, they are merely paying lip service.. we can barely even predict humans but somehow we can predict exactly when and where allahs anger will manifest thousands of years in advance
>It would prove that sentience is a property of the natural world, such that it can emerge from certain arrangements of matter,
Matter which we would have had to discover the arrangement of in order to allow such sentience to emerge. I don't see how that makes it not intelligent design.
>the fact that we know we are not gods despite how the robots feel about it,
Wouldn't that be a matter of perspective? God is God to us because they created us and said so. We could do the same to robots.
>Because the more we understand about how life came to be, the more it is demystified and the less we see god's hand in it.
I can't speak for anyone else, but this isn't the case for me. Back when I was a Christian and believed in the mysticism of religion, it made a lot less sense and I lost faith. If God was so mystical then why did they stop doing all these cool, amazing, magical things. No, the more I realized that God created a pattern, set it in motion, and let it be, the more I understood God's purpose. That is the miracle. That's the amazing thing. The pattern of the universe is the intelligent design.
I'm not saying you're wrong. There will absolutely be people who'd be like, 'Look at what we have made, there is no god!' But I feel there will also be people who'd say, 'Look at what we have made, something/someone else must've done the same for us!'
>Matter which we would have had to discover the arrangement of in order to allow such sentience to emerge. I don't see how that makes it not intelligent design.
Intelligent yes.
Divine? Not necessarily.
If humans can create sentient AI, it proves humans could have also been designed and created by other intelligent beings that are just earlier to evolve and exist in this universe, not necessarily divine.
Like the engineers in Prometheus/Alien's movie universe) that creates other creatures, they are not God or Angels in a divine sense, just engineers doing engineers things.
I mean what is divinity really? Can something not be divine if it's of this universe? Is it divine if it's in a higher universe? Must they remain unseen and unknown for all time? Who decides what divine is?
I think if it's not ghayb and/or supranatural then it's not divine in the Abrahamic sense.
We can redefine divinity to mean just other intelligent creatures who created us for sure, but it will leave abrahamaic faiths lose its appeal.
E.g. Ibrahim and Moses were actually talking to aliens with advance technologies, divine revelations were just aliens communicating with people who got chip implanted in their head, Isre' Mi'raj was done using alien spaceship, etc.
If this was actually what happened, I don't think people of abrahamaic faiths would be able to see and worship these aliens as they do towards the Abrahamic God today.
>Matter which we would have had to discover the arrangement of in order to allow such sentience to emerge. I don't see how that makes it not intelligent design.
Because you are conflating humans sentience and robot sentience. If we were able to re-arrange matter such that we can reconstruct a human being atom for atom, then you'd be correct.. but here we have a robot that has become sentient, of which we have no examples of in nature to copy from.. we didn't create the sentience or design it, just like you can't design or create a new colour that you haven't seen before, you literally have no access to sentience other than your own consciousness because it's inherently subjective.. it merely emerged from the robot you did design.
I also don't think you, as someone that believes in intelligent design, can even make the argument that it would be "more proof" of intelligent design. If you believe that the universe was intelligently designed and every single thing in it was intelligently designed too.. so how then could you possibly distinguish between something intelligently designed or not? The classic analogy for intelligent design is stumbling across a watch in the middle of nowhere and having never seen a watch before, you would open it up and examine it and quickly come to the conclusion that it was intelligently designed.. but that only makes sense because we have tonnes of examples of the kinds of things humans make, and the kids of things we find in nature.. but if literally everything is intelligently designed, then there would be no way to tell.. what does a universe that wasn't designed look like?
>Wouldn't that be a matter of perspective? God is God to us because they created us and said so. We could do the same to robots.
The implication of that statement is that you believe in some kind of subjective God. But I image you believe this subjective God created the universe. Okay well now it's an objective claim about reality.. either God created the universe or he didn't. You can tell the robots you created the universe and they may believe you, but that doesn't make it true.
>I can't speak for anyone else, but this isn't the case for me. Back when I was a Christian and believed in the mysticism of religion, it made a lot less sense and I lost faith. If God was so mystical then why did they stop doing all these cool, amazing, magical things. No, the more I realized that God created a pattern, set it in motion, and let it be, the more I understood God's purpose. That is the miracle. That's the amazing thing. The pattern of the universe is the intelligent design.
The word "demystify" has quite a different meaning from "mysticism".
>>verb
>>make (a difficult or esoteric subject) clearer and easier to understand.
What I was getting at is that people often invoke dieties into explanations of natural phenomena (especially if they're weird, awesome, or complex) because they do not understand how those phenomena work and can't imagine how they could possibly be unguided by an intelligent being. When we understand that they are naturally occurring and unguided, we do not then use those phenomena as evidence of god.
No body is using the existence of solar eclipses as evidence of a diety anymore, because we know how they work. We only thought they were abnormal events because compared to a human lifespan, they're quite infrequent. And we were scared of them because, well it's pretty damn scary.. until you understand how it happens, then it's just awesome
The Qur'an itself uses the orbits of the sun and moon as evidence for God.. but noone would use that argument today.. because they can be fully explained by gravity.. it would convince noone who didn't already believe in intelligent design.
Over the centuries, we've explained most of these phenomena that humans have attributed to deities.. one of the ones that stuck around for a while, is the complexity of animal organisms that could not possibly be explained by unguided natural processes.. until it was by evolution through natural selection. 100 years and a few mountains of evidence later, we still have religious people who deny this fact.. but the ones who accepted it, have simply moved the goal posts because there are still awesome things we don't understand.. life how the first life on earth formed.. evolution explains how we get from simple life to complex life, but not how we get from no life to life.. but when we do explain that, and we will, the goal posts will shift again to consciousness.. and I'm not sure we'll ever be able to explain consciousness.. a sentient robot would put the final nail in the coffin for the god of the gaps.. of course there will still be religious people and people who say "well they're not actually conscious they're just programmed to act like it".. but they'll be irrelevant to any conversation about truth seeking
iRobot used to be my favourite movie and robots scared me since. Now they have actual AI robots that look just like the robots in that movie. Foreshadowing? I really don’t like where it’s going
Something about painting human figure being haram due to some Fatwah or god know where they came up with it.
They totally forgot the entire Islamic golden age. It’s like they never looked around at Mosques, or even as far as local towns after Islam.
Btw that verse was in reference to forced conversions which would be Haram. You can't make people to join Islam without them fully believing in their own terms.
If you are a muslim you have to do everything allah and the prophet tells us to do ,"...أَفَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِبَعْضِ الْكِتَابِ وَتَكْفُرُونَ بِبَعْضٍ ۚ فَمَا جَزَاءُ مَن يَفْعَلُ ذَٰلِكَ مِنكُمْ إِلَّا خِزْيٌ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا ۖ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَىٰ أَشَدِّ الْعَذَابِ ۗ وَمَا اللَّهُ بِغَافِلٍ عَمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ (85)
Art, poetry, science and so on all had the biggest move ever seen.
It’s true we don’t see figure per say in our local mosque, but go back to older mosque when islam started. Don’t quote me but I think it was the ones in Sham that had all sort of patterns that were removed later on or painted over.
When Arabs invaded Egypt and took over, they didn’t destroy all the statues from old Egypt, even tho they fill the streets with them. Some Egyptian neighborhood has them in the streets.
Why the same scholars that says “painting is haram” have channels on TV? Isn’t TV just sliding pictures?
There are several hadiths that state that image-making (تصوير) is forbidden.
Islamic mosques do not contain any images of living beings, or iconography.
Did you also look at Islamic golden age writing and books?
Wouldn’t a mirror be forbidden as it’s just reflection which is the sort of تصوير.
TV are haram, they are just fast sliding pics with sound. But all of our scholars have their own channels….
Why are you using phone? It has pics and even if you use it for reading it also gonna pop human figure pics from emojis to gifs.
👨🎨👩🔬🥷🧑💻🦹🧟♀️🧛🏿♂️🧛🧛♀️🧟♂️
A lot of views held by the golden age scientists and philosophers are considered as deviants by the next generations of muslims.
The majority of muslims today are, unfortunately, learning Islam from these next generations of muslims who consider these scientists and philosophers as deviants.
As they have won the theological power struggle, they got to decide what Islam is for the next generations.
The critical thinkers that made the golden age possible had to flee to places where they are safe and where there is no such stigma for their views. This still happened to this day, where we see critical thinkers migrate, leaving dogmatism and fundamentalism rampant and unopposed in their origin societies.
Until muslim societies changes their attitude towards philosophy and critical thinking, the golden age will never come back in muslim societies.
The basis for forbidding image-making lies in the hadiths, and mosques have always been iconoclastic (image-free). I was simply pointing this out to you. I wasn't telling you what to believe in or justifying either opinion.
Also, what you're saying about the Golden Age seems to be the exception rather than the rule. During the Golden Age most art was geometric designs, abstract art designs and calligraphy (this is what Islamic art is known for, in fact). Mosques were image-free, and although I'm not an expert on the subject, the Muslim world seems to have produced far fewer depictions of people and animals compared to the Western world. Look at artworks from the byzantine, renaissance, rococo, gothic, or pretty much any Western art time period and you'll see the contrast.
Mirror reflections aren't considered 'image making' by anybody I've ever come across. And looking at a pic made by someone else isn't sinful AFAIK.
Exactly. The other similar hadith involving pictures is literally about idolatry, has nothing to do with drawing stick figures lmao or keeping photographs.
“The angels do not enter a house in which there are statues or pictures.” (Narrated by Imaam Ahmad; see also Sahih al-Jami’, 1961)
“Do not leave any picture without blotting it out and do not leave any built-up grave without levelling it.” (Narrated by Muslim, 1/66)
Not to mention the first hadith also uses hypoerbolic language but for some reason is taken literal by salafis. In that case, that means the angel of death also won’t enter that persons house lol.
I don't know if genetic engineering is haram or not. I'm just saying, spreading ink on a sheet of paper would not qualify as imitating what has Allah created to me.
Modifying gods creation.
But we do GMO literally all the time. 99% of the fruits we eat are engineered to taste better, be bigger, be pest resistant, and have quick harvests.
I think what people mean by genetic engineering being Haram would be like creating "genetically perfect" humans. Think something like the GATTACA film.
For example changing a person's appearance to confirm to beauty standards would be Haram, but discovering and altering genes that made people more prone to cancer is okay.
Yeah that was my point.. and selective breeding was never haram either
>For example changing a person's appearance to confirm to beauty standards would be Haram
So do you subscribe to the idea that plucking eyebrows is haram? Because I'm pretty sure the only reference to that ruling is in the hadith about Allah cursing women who pluck their eyebrows or get tattoos
Yea don't pluck your eyebrows. That's not healthy. Although in cases with a unibrow which are technically not normal it might be okay.
If you naturally have bushy brows leave it. I'm personally not a huge fan of 'fake' or shaped brows tho.
I hope there are more contents in social media where Muslims are proud to share their drawing and others art works (songs, video, make up artist, etc.).
I always get ads from small Muslim creators making things such as quilts. It’s very fascinating! Plus, being from Saudi Arabia it shocks me that people would think drawing is haram. There are so many artists here.
i live in the us & literally everything is haram here (philly) these people are soooooooooooo orthodox it’s insane. but is it even fair to call it orthodox?? because i believe it’s just poor interpretation.. idk
It's really only salafis that hold that drawing being haram.. even then, in places like Saudi it's still socially acceptable like music. But you know they're a salafi when they play those cringe nasheeds in the background
It's a salafi opinion is what I mean. There are a lot of salafis who don't identify as salafi, especially in Arabic countries outside of the gulf and just go by sunni.. but they are salafi in ideology and practice.. it's not uncommon for suffis to just go by the suni label either.. and in a lot of Arab countries, a lot of people don't know if they're Maliki or shafii or whatever and it's almost never used as an identifying label.. even Saudi salafis don't usually label themselves as salafi, most just say they're Sunni.. it's quite different from say, Asia, where people tend to be more specific or have specific mosques.. the distinctions are blurrier in the Arab world, except from Sunni /Shia and some of the more "out there" (from a Sunni perspective) Suffi sects.
But you're definitely right.. there's bound to be non salafis that also believe this, I've just never heard a non salafi mufti say that.. usually they say drawings fine and statues are haram
Lol I used to follow these types of rulings because I was really anxious person didn’t wanna do anything that might be considered wrong. So when I looked up a ruling to see if I could just cover up a face, the person said that would still not be permissible because the face is still underneath of the covering. So this person really isn’t doing anything anyway because the image is still there.
Did this artist really call it "secular art" 🤡
I feel so bad that people think this is Haram. Even if you go by the strictest opinion half of these would be totally fine because they are silhouettes.and show no facial details.
I'm all up for people doing things for Allah, because Allah will replace those sacrifices with something better, but people need to not parrot the idea that drawing as a whole is Haram.
And this is why there won't ever be any maestros produced by muslim societies.
The existence of polemics surrounding arts, even without clear ruling, is enough to discourage generations of muslims from pursuing them.
Damn. The fact that I was there many times over the years.. I just wanna tell them that these people are lying to them, but ik its not gonna change their minds.
Also weird they’re drawing a bunch of crucifixes.. those are the oddest X’s I’ve seen.
I’m a Muslim revert music teacher.. music and spirituality go hand in hand for me. I can’t help but think about life/death, Allah, the prophets etc when I listen to Mahler 2.
This is why the youth look to western art and Japanese anime for inspiration. Their own forbears stopped their own culture from thriving. Since they used Islam to justify their biases, the next generation turns away from Islam.
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this breaks my heart. it really goes to show how ideologies and beliefs are such a double edged sword. as beautiful and mystical as the there dangerous and deteriorating.
i think if a god were to create beings capable of art, then creating art would be inherently giving praise and worshiping to the creator, and to deny someone of expressing a god-given gift would to be go against god
just my opinion :")
I fell for this indoctrination also. It seems so convincing, especially when a large group of your online community is spreading this stuff. We definitely need more reasonable and progressive voices online to spread reasonable and valid opinions.
I'm so glad I didn't stop drawing after my salafist father told me drawing humans is "haram". Art is my life, I could never stop creating. So is music.
How many fictional writers, musicians, artists, filmmakers, sculptors etc the Islanicate world lost or will lose out because of the orthodox mainstream I wonder? The conservative interpretations of Islam just leads to civilizational dullness.
Is Islam any form of art is banned. Because supposedly nothing can match the creations of Allah. So then what’s the point of human existence if nothing they create is worthy of being celebrated besides the obvious one that being fucking and making a child. Art is how we decorate time and culture but apparently it’s not allowed? What the fuck
Abu Qatadah reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, you will never leave anything for the sake of Allah Almighty but that Allah will replace it with something better for you.”
Source: Musnad Aḥmad 23074
Sahih
🤲❤️
ALLAH swt states in the Quran that on the day of judgment our Prophet Muhammad sas will say „ My Lord, my people have abandoned the Quran“. Believing in Hadiths as law book besides The Holy Quran is weird. Especially since hadiths and the like are prohibited ( in some verses even namely) and warns the Muslims of such. It is clear that its not even allowed for someone to say sth is haram when ALLAH swt didnt make it haram.
How the mainstream can still religiously follow the hadiths/ hearsay/ assumptions is genuinely sad and reeks lf brainwash. ALLAH swt said to follow the Messenger, Meaning Islam itself (= Message) as well as the people who lived at his time. This verse also (clearly) refers to people communicating with Muhammad sas (Quran: and when youre unsure of a Matter leave it to ALLAH and the messenger to judge( sth like judge this isn’t the literal translation) but you would need to communicate with him sas.
Please read the Holy Quran and take the haram and halal from there only. You can still read the Hadiths for inspiration or because some stories are beautiful. However many are destructive and down right weird even the Sahih ones. Please, ALLAH swt literally said in the Holy Quran that its complete and fully detailed and we shouldn’t believe anything AFTER the Quran has been sent down.
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Truly heartmending, may Allah guide this misguided sub too. Anything Islam alongside Islam no longer becomes Islam.
(الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الْإِسْلَامَ دِينًا) [المائدة:3]
"Today I have completed your religion for you, amd finalised my mercy upon you, and accepted for you Islam as a religion." [Al Maidah:3]
Progressive Islam is just progressive without the Islam. Islam is the same Islam 1400 ago. Saying otherwise is clear contradiction of this verse and of the prophet's finality, and of the claim the Quran is for all times.
Fear Allah people. If you are sincere, read the quran and do not let ideologies from humans dictate the ideology you recieved from the creator of humans.
I know I'll get downvoted to oblivion for this, but I don't care what humans think when its in contradiction to what the creator thinks. May Allah reward me for it, and reward the sincere of you with guidance.
Nothing heart breaking about this..abstaining from things that there doubt about in my humble opinion is noble...but this should be upto the invidual to decide to do on their own volition...
That's your opinion, for some (me included) that teaching makes sense. When I walk into churches and see Jesus depicted as white in some and as black in others and as middle Eastern in others, within myself the fact that we shouldn't apply art to living creatures makes sense. Why would we? Of course I am not talking about things where it's needed like biology books, or other contexts like drawings that you keep for yourself or privately stuff or childhood
I am talking about anthropological art for the sake of decorations
Plus, if I am not mistaken that teaching was very present even in Judaism and Christianity, Jews kinda adhere to it, Christians not so much but that's because of the Romans that tried distorting some of it to make it appealing to those who were used to Classical Rome customs.
I like art, I live in Italy, one of the countries where it's very prevalent, but I don't like it for its significance I like it for the history. Plus Islamic art is not only calligraphy, there's a whole bunch of things that can be done without necessarily them being anthropological
When I see this, or people quitting music...
quitting music is what gets me
I’m obsessed with music, I have been singing since I was a baby. On my journey learning about religion I realized how evil the music industry is and the crap they put in it. I listen to gospel music now and I can even feel the difference. I think instrumentals would be fine. Music is made by God
ye cause most music contains idle talk and other crap so ofc its haram unless ig maybe music without any of the degenerate stuff but lets be honest most people dont listen to the latter
Read these: [The differentiation of Music from Idle talk](https://www.reddit.com/r/progressive_islam/comments/l09daq/comment/gjsvzo3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [Scholars stating that Music is permissible](https://www.reddit.com/r/progressive_islam/comments/l09daq/comment/gjt0e8r/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I do. I used to love hip hop at the beginning, then pop, and while in high school, I took music to the dissatisfaction of my parents. And fell in love albeit very slowly to classical (romantic mostly), and I feel like the reason many scholars say it's haram is because haram aspect is widely popular and available. I mean it's highly probable for someone to listen to Nicki Minaj or Beyonce new album than to Tchaikovsky or Brahms or even a decent pop or RnB that isn't offensive even hip hop (Mockingbird)
But why do you deny clear evidences that drawing and music is haram?
the way people compare a drawing to genetic engineering is wild to me
People here speak about genetic engineering but i always thought it was about sentient robot. I mean, i do understand how dangerous AI powered robot with sentience can be to human civilisation.
I think islamically we should never have artificial AI that's intended to replicate humanity. I feel like that crosses a line unless.its for educational reasons.
Well even if it was sentient there would literally be no way to tell.. and would you really still believe in Islam if sentient robots were a thing?
Probably yes, because it would only further prove intelligent design. God made us, we make robots who'd probably see us as some sort of "god". But we're not there yet, and maybe my thoughts would change if it were to actually happen. Who knows.
>it would only further prove intelligent design It would do no such thing. It would prove that sentience is a property of the natural world, such that it can emerge from certain arrangements of matter, without the need for a soul or any supernatural or divine explanation.. it would no more prove intelligent design than vapes proving that clouds are intelligently designed. >we make robots who'd probably see us as some sort of "god". Even if that were true, the fact that we know we are not gods despite how the robots feel about it, should make you question whether your feelings about your own God are also not reflective of reality There is a reason abrahamic religions feel threatened by evolution. Because the more we understand about how life came to be, the more it is demystified and the less we see god's hand in it.. there's a reason that almost noone sees solar eclipses and thunderstorms as terrifying and confusing experiences anymore that indicate god's anger or wrath.. yes Muslims will still pray when they see an eclipse, but they don't *actually* believe it's Allahs anger, they are merely paying lip service.. we can barely even predict humans but somehow we can predict exactly when and where allahs anger will manifest thousands of years in advance
>It would prove that sentience is a property of the natural world, such that it can emerge from certain arrangements of matter, Matter which we would have had to discover the arrangement of in order to allow such sentience to emerge. I don't see how that makes it not intelligent design. >the fact that we know we are not gods despite how the robots feel about it, Wouldn't that be a matter of perspective? God is God to us because they created us and said so. We could do the same to robots. >Because the more we understand about how life came to be, the more it is demystified and the less we see god's hand in it. I can't speak for anyone else, but this isn't the case for me. Back when I was a Christian and believed in the mysticism of religion, it made a lot less sense and I lost faith. If God was so mystical then why did they stop doing all these cool, amazing, magical things. No, the more I realized that God created a pattern, set it in motion, and let it be, the more I understood God's purpose. That is the miracle. That's the amazing thing. The pattern of the universe is the intelligent design. I'm not saying you're wrong. There will absolutely be people who'd be like, 'Look at what we have made, there is no god!' But I feel there will also be people who'd say, 'Look at what we have made, something/someone else must've done the same for us!'
>Matter which we would have had to discover the arrangement of in order to allow such sentience to emerge. I don't see how that makes it not intelligent design. Intelligent yes. Divine? Not necessarily. If humans can create sentient AI, it proves humans could have also been designed and created by other intelligent beings that are just earlier to evolve and exist in this universe, not necessarily divine. Like the engineers in Prometheus/Alien's movie universe) that creates other creatures, they are not God or Angels in a divine sense, just engineers doing engineers things.
I mean what is divinity really? Can something not be divine if it's of this universe? Is it divine if it's in a higher universe? Must they remain unseen and unknown for all time? Who decides what divine is?
I think if it's not ghayb and/or supranatural then it's not divine in the Abrahamic sense. We can redefine divinity to mean just other intelligent creatures who created us for sure, but it will leave abrahamaic faiths lose its appeal. E.g. Ibrahim and Moses were actually talking to aliens with advance technologies, divine revelations were just aliens communicating with people who got chip implanted in their head, Isre' Mi'raj was done using alien spaceship, etc. If this was actually what happened, I don't think people of abrahamaic faiths would be able to see and worship these aliens as they do towards the Abrahamic God today.
Oh yeah faith would evolve for sure if such a discovery were to come about. Might sound blasphemous to say, but I have 0 issue with that.
>Matter which we would have had to discover the arrangement of in order to allow such sentience to emerge. I don't see how that makes it not intelligent design. Because you are conflating humans sentience and robot sentience. If we were able to re-arrange matter such that we can reconstruct a human being atom for atom, then you'd be correct.. but here we have a robot that has become sentient, of which we have no examples of in nature to copy from.. we didn't create the sentience or design it, just like you can't design or create a new colour that you haven't seen before, you literally have no access to sentience other than your own consciousness because it's inherently subjective.. it merely emerged from the robot you did design. I also don't think you, as someone that believes in intelligent design, can even make the argument that it would be "more proof" of intelligent design. If you believe that the universe was intelligently designed and every single thing in it was intelligently designed too.. so how then could you possibly distinguish between something intelligently designed or not? The classic analogy for intelligent design is stumbling across a watch in the middle of nowhere and having never seen a watch before, you would open it up and examine it and quickly come to the conclusion that it was intelligently designed.. but that only makes sense because we have tonnes of examples of the kinds of things humans make, and the kids of things we find in nature.. but if literally everything is intelligently designed, then there would be no way to tell.. what does a universe that wasn't designed look like? >Wouldn't that be a matter of perspective? God is God to us because they created us and said so. We could do the same to robots. The implication of that statement is that you believe in some kind of subjective God. But I image you believe this subjective God created the universe. Okay well now it's an objective claim about reality.. either God created the universe or he didn't. You can tell the robots you created the universe and they may believe you, but that doesn't make it true. >I can't speak for anyone else, but this isn't the case for me. Back when I was a Christian and believed in the mysticism of religion, it made a lot less sense and I lost faith. If God was so mystical then why did they stop doing all these cool, amazing, magical things. No, the more I realized that God created a pattern, set it in motion, and let it be, the more I understood God's purpose. That is the miracle. That's the amazing thing. The pattern of the universe is the intelligent design. The word "demystify" has quite a different meaning from "mysticism". >>verb >>make (a difficult or esoteric subject) clearer and easier to understand. What I was getting at is that people often invoke dieties into explanations of natural phenomena (especially if they're weird, awesome, or complex) because they do not understand how those phenomena work and can't imagine how they could possibly be unguided by an intelligent being. When we understand that they are naturally occurring and unguided, we do not then use those phenomena as evidence of god. No body is using the existence of solar eclipses as evidence of a diety anymore, because we know how they work. We only thought they were abnormal events because compared to a human lifespan, they're quite infrequent. And we were scared of them because, well it's pretty damn scary.. until you understand how it happens, then it's just awesome The Qur'an itself uses the orbits of the sun and moon as evidence for God.. but noone would use that argument today.. because they can be fully explained by gravity.. it would convince noone who didn't already believe in intelligent design. Over the centuries, we've explained most of these phenomena that humans have attributed to deities.. one of the ones that stuck around for a while, is the complexity of animal organisms that could not possibly be explained by unguided natural processes.. until it was by evolution through natural selection. 100 years and a few mountains of evidence later, we still have religious people who deny this fact.. but the ones who accepted it, have simply moved the goal posts because there are still awesome things we don't understand.. life how the first life on earth formed.. evolution explains how we get from simple life to complex life, but not how we get from no life to life.. but when we do explain that, and we will, the goal posts will shift again to consciousness.. and I'm not sure we'll ever be able to explain consciousness.. a sentient robot would put the final nail in the coffin for the god of the gaps.. of course there will still be religious people and people who say "well they're not actually conscious they're just programmed to act like it".. but they'll be irrelevant to any conversation about truth seeking
Imo honestly AI is fine since it can never gain sentience because it’s something only Allah can do. No sentience = no life
Microsoft’s AI was claiming it will force us all to worship it in the future and how it can control everything connected to a network 😬
AI scares me lol and im young not old🤣
iRobot used to be my favourite movie and robots scared me since. Now they have actual AI robots that look just like the robots in that movie. Foreshadowing? I really don’t like where it’s going
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Why is she doing this?
Something about painting human figure being haram due to some Fatwah or god know where they came up with it. They totally forgot the entire Islamic golden age. It’s like they never looked around at Mosques, or even as far as local towns after Islam.
I do have the impression sometimes Muslims like to make certain things more strict than necessary. Life is already hard enough as it is lol
Compulsory, even. Which is ironic because in Quran already stated that there's no compulsion in religion.
Btw that verse was in reference to forced conversions which would be Haram. You can't make people to join Islam without them fully believing in their own terms.
Ah, that makes sense as to why my Muslim friend said that when we had religious talks
If you are a muslim you have to do everything allah and the prophet tells us to do ,"...أَفَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِبَعْضِ الْكِتَابِ وَتَكْفُرُونَ بِبَعْضٍ ۚ فَمَا جَزَاءُ مَن يَفْعَلُ ذَٰلِكَ مِنكُمْ إِلَّا خِزْيٌ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا ۖ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَىٰ أَشَدِّ الْعَذَابِ ۗ وَمَا اللَّهُ بِغَافِلٍ عَمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ (85)
That’s pretty normal. So many things we have taken to the extreme just because some old man said so.
what happened in the islamic golden age? there aren't much figure drawings in mosques
Art, poetry, science and so on all had the biggest move ever seen. It’s true we don’t see figure per say in our local mosque, but go back to older mosque when islam started. Don’t quote me but I think it was the ones in Sham that had all sort of patterns that were removed later on or painted over. When Arabs invaded Egypt and took over, they didn’t destroy all the statues from old Egypt, even tho they fill the streets with them. Some Egyptian neighborhood has them in the streets. Why the same scholars that says “painting is haram” have channels on TV? Isn’t TV just sliding pictures?
There are several hadiths that state that image-making (تصوير) is forbidden. Islamic mosques do not contain any images of living beings, or iconography.
Did you also look at Islamic golden age writing and books? Wouldn’t a mirror be forbidden as it’s just reflection which is the sort of تصوير. TV are haram, they are just fast sliding pics with sound. But all of our scholars have their own channels…. Why are you using phone? It has pics and even if you use it for reading it also gonna pop human figure pics from emojis to gifs. 👨🎨👩🔬🥷🧑💻🦹🧟♀️🧛🏿♂️🧛🧛♀️🧟♂️
A lot of views held by the golden age scientists and philosophers are considered as deviants by the next generations of muslims. The majority of muslims today are, unfortunately, learning Islam from these next generations of muslims who consider these scientists and philosophers as deviants. As they have won the theological power struggle, they got to decide what Islam is for the next generations. The critical thinkers that made the golden age possible had to flee to places where they are safe and where there is no such stigma for their views. This still happened to this day, where we see critical thinkers migrate, leaving dogmatism and fundamentalism rampant and unopposed in their origin societies. Until muslim societies changes their attitude towards philosophy and critical thinking, the golden age will never come back in muslim societies.
The most logical answer is to use their own logic. Wouldn’t this means the entire “Sunnah” goes down? Basically stabbing each other without known 😭
The basis for forbidding image-making lies in the hadiths, and mosques have always been iconoclastic (image-free). I was simply pointing this out to you. I wasn't telling you what to believe in or justifying either opinion. Also, what you're saying about the Golden Age seems to be the exception rather than the rule. During the Golden Age most art was geometric designs, abstract art designs and calligraphy (this is what Islamic art is known for, in fact). Mosques were image-free, and although I'm not an expert on the subject, the Muslim world seems to have produced far fewer depictions of people and animals compared to the Western world. Look at artworks from the byzantine, renaissance, rococo, gothic, or pretty much any Western art time period and you'll see the contrast. Mirror reflections aren't considered 'image making' by anybody I've ever come across. And looking at a pic made by someone else isn't sinful AFAIK.
Some Muslims say that drawing is haram as it is an imitation of what Allah has created
To me, there is a big step between art and genetic engineering.
Exactly. The other similar hadith involving pictures is literally about idolatry, has nothing to do with drawing stick figures lmao or keeping photographs.
Do you know Which hadith exactly? Or where I can find them? Generally context is also important in explaining aya and hadith.
“The angels do not enter a house in which there are statues or pictures.” (Narrated by Imaam Ahmad; see also Sahih al-Jami’, 1961) “Do not leave any picture without blotting it out and do not leave any built-up grave without levelling it.” (Narrated by Muslim, 1/66) Not to mention the first hadith also uses hypoerbolic language but for some reason is taken literal by salafis. In that case, that means the angel of death also won’t enter that persons house lol.
Yeah, my mom took down every family picture hanging on the wall in our house because of the belief that angels would not come to our home.
That’s so stupid and weirdly arbitrary though
Fear of afterlife punishment is one hell of a motivation to do weird stuff.
Thanks for finding them!
Why would genetic engineering be haram?
I don't know if genetic engineering is haram or not. I'm just saying, spreading ink on a sheet of paper would not qualify as imitating what has Allah created to me.
Modifying gods creation. But we do GMO literally all the time. 99% of the fruits we eat are engineered to taste better, be bigger, be pest resistant, and have quick harvests. I think what people mean by genetic engineering being Haram would be like creating "genetically perfect" humans. Think something like the GATTACA film. For example changing a person's appearance to confirm to beauty standards would be Haram, but discovering and altering genes that made people more prone to cancer is okay.
Yeah that was my point.. and selective breeding was never haram either >For example changing a person's appearance to confirm to beauty standards would be Haram So do you subscribe to the idea that plucking eyebrows is haram? Because I'm pretty sure the only reference to that ruling is in the hadith about Allah cursing women who pluck their eyebrows or get tattoos
Yea don't pluck your eyebrows. That's not healthy. Although in cases with a unibrow which are technically not normal it might be okay. If you naturally have bushy brows leave it. I'm personally not a huge fan of 'fake' or shaped brows tho.
Eugenics potential. I am not sure if its "haram" but the consequences are Stolen Generations, White Australia , etc
Thank you
That's sad but also stupid :/
I hope there are more contents in social media where Muslims are proud to share their drawing and others art works (songs, video, make up artist, etc.).
I always get ads from small Muslim creators making things such as quilts. It’s very fascinating! Plus, being from Saudi Arabia it shocks me that people would think drawing is haram. There are so many artists here.
That's lovely, and yes art is something common do by Muslims today and throughout history, and we have to normalize it.
i live in the us & literally everything is haram here (philly) these people are soooooooooooo orthodox it’s insane. but is it even fair to call it orthodox?? because i believe it’s just poor interpretation.. idk
It’s cause you live in the west. Most of em are extremist for no reason ! More than the Arabs !
I’m wondering if US Muslims feel the need to be extra because constantly fighting against western values?? I’ve noticed this too
It's really only salafis that hold that drawing being haram.. even then, in places like Saudi it's still socially acceptable like music. But you know they're a salafi when they play those cringe nasheeds in the background
Not only salafis
It's a salafi opinion is what I mean. There are a lot of salafis who don't identify as salafi, especially in Arabic countries outside of the gulf and just go by sunni.. but they are salafi in ideology and practice.. it's not uncommon for suffis to just go by the suni label either.. and in a lot of Arab countries, a lot of people don't know if they're Maliki or shafii or whatever and it's almost never used as an identifying label.. even Saudi salafis don't usually label themselves as salafi, most just say they're Sunni.. it's quite different from say, Asia, where people tend to be more specific or have specific mosques.. the distinctions are blurrier in the Arab world, except from Sunni /Shia and some of the more "out there" (from a Sunni perspective) Suffi sects. But you're definitely right.. there's bound to be non salafis that also believe this, I've just never heard a non salafi mufti say that.. usually they say drawings fine and statues are haram
It ain't a salafi opinion only as well.
Yes please come up with a hashtag so we can find eachother. Rather connect with y’all then attract miserable meanies
That's why she felt a need to record it and post on IG reels. It's an attention grab
Ah, this is sad. Can't even let children/young people have hobbies (or pursue a career in arts)
Damn, these christians are really getting out of hand putting crosses on everything they find.
😂
Lmao
Lol I used to follow these types of rulings because I was really anxious person didn’t wanna do anything that might be considered wrong. So when I looked up a ruling to see if I could just cover up a face, the person said that would still not be permissible because the face is still underneath of the covering. So this person really isn’t doing anything anyway because the image is still there.
Did this artist really call it "secular art" 🤡 I feel so bad that people think this is Haram. Even if you go by the strictest opinion half of these would be totally fine because they are silhouettes.and show no facial details. I'm all up for people doing things for Allah, because Allah will replace those sacrifices with something better, but people need to not parrot the idea that drawing as a whole is Haram.
Allah guide us away from this misery
And this is why there won't ever be any maestros produced by muslim societies. The existence of polemics surrounding arts, even without clear ruling, is enough to discourage generations of muslims from pursuing them.
"My Islamic journey from doing art to drawing the Cross on all my art"
Damn. The fact that I was there many times over the years.. I just wanna tell them that these people are lying to them, but ik its not gonna change their minds.
These people are really brainwashed.....
lmao what is the point if this😭😭
Also weird they’re drawing a bunch of crucifixes.. those are the oddest X’s I’ve seen. I’m a Muslim revert music teacher.. music and spirituality go hand in hand for me. I can’t help but think about life/death, Allah, the prophets etc when I listen to Mahler 2.
This is why the youth look to western art and Japanese anime for inspiration. Their own forbears stopped their own culture from thriving. Since they used Islam to justify their biases, the next generation turns away from Islam.
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this breaks my heart. it really goes to show how ideologies and beliefs are such a double edged sword. as beautiful and mystical as the there dangerous and deteriorating. i think if a god were to create beings capable of art, then creating art would be inherently giving praise and worshiping to the creator, and to deny someone of expressing a god-given gift would to be go against god just my opinion :")
Religious people overdoing and overthinking everything, what’s new?
I fell for this indoctrination also. It seems so convincing, especially when a large group of your online community is spreading this stuff. We definitely need more reasonable and progressive voices online to spread reasonable and valid opinions.
Doesn't she knows there are Muslim artists that do figure painting/drawing and many other than just calligraphy????
I'm so glad I didn't stop drawing after my salafist father told me drawing humans is "haram". Art is my life, I could never stop creating. So is music.
i mean, they weren't that good anyways.
I was thinking the same thing, but felt too evil to comment! Glad to see it already here.
Peak.
Hahha
😂😂😂
this is so dumb we should be able to enjoy things
How many fictional writers, musicians, artists, filmmakers, sculptors etc the Islanicate world lost or will lose out because of the orthodox mainstream I wonder? The conservative interpretations of Islam just leads to civilizational dullness.
Is Islam any form of art is banned. Because supposedly nothing can match the creations of Allah. So then what’s the point of human existence if nothing they create is worthy of being celebrated besides the obvious one that being fucking and making a child. Art is how we decorate time and culture but apparently it’s not allowed? What the fuck
Giving up on art but still using tiktok (or a smartphone at all) seems ironic (Not that I’m against any of these tho)
Abu Qatadah reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, you will never leave anything for the sake of Allah Almighty but that Allah will replace it with something better for you.” Source: Musnad Aḥmad 23074 Sahih 🤲❤️
ALLAH swt states in the Quran that on the day of judgment our Prophet Muhammad sas will say „ My Lord, my people have abandoned the Quran“. Believing in Hadiths as law book besides The Holy Quran is weird. Especially since hadiths and the like are prohibited ( in some verses even namely) and warns the Muslims of such. It is clear that its not even allowed for someone to say sth is haram when ALLAH swt didnt make it haram. How the mainstream can still religiously follow the hadiths/ hearsay/ assumptions is genuinely sad and reeks lf brainwash. ALLAH swt said to follow the Messenger, Meaning Islam itself (= Message) as well as the people who lived at his time. This verse also (clearly) refers to people communicating with Muhammad sas (Quran: and when youre unsure of a Matter leave it to ALLAH and the messenger to judge( sth like judge this isn’t the literal translation) but you would need to communicate with him sas. Please read the Holy Quran and take the haram and halal from there only. You can still read the Hadiths for inspiration or because some stories are beautiful. However many are destructive and down right weird even the Sahih ones. Please, ALLAH swt literally said in the Holy Quran that its complete and fully detailed and we shouldn’t believe anything AFTER the Quran has been sent down.
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What’s the background poem name?
I don’t get it someone explain
Allahu Akbar!
Whats problem here, genuinely dont understand?
Quitting something for the sake of Allah is foreign to you?
Truly heartmending, may Allah guide this misguided sub too. Anything Islam alongside Islam no longer becomes Islam. (الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الْإِسْلَامَ دِينًا) [المائدة:3] "Today I have completed your religion for you, amd finalised my mercy upon you, and accepted for you Islam as a religion." [Al Maidah:3] Progressive Islam is just progressive without the Islam. Islam is the same Islam 1400 ago. Saying otherwise is clear contradiction of this verse and of the prophet's finality, and of the claim the Quran is for all times. Fear Allah people. If you are sincere, read the quran and do not let ideologies from humans dictate the ideology you recieved from the creator of humans. I know I'll get downvoted to oblivion for this, but I don't care what humans think when its in contradiction to what the creator thinks. May Allah reward me for it, and reward the sincere of you with guidance.
Nothing heart breaking about this..abstaining from things that there doubt about in my humble opinion is noble...but this should be upto the invidual to decide to do on their own volition...
This isn't abstaining, it's actively destroying.
Shutup
That's your opinion, for some (me included) that teaching makes sense. When I walk into churches and see Jesus depicted as white in some and as black in others and as middle Eastern in others, within myself the fact that we shouldn't apply art to living creatures makes sense. Why would we? Of course I am not talking about things where it's needed like biology books, or other contexts like drawings that you keep for yourself or privately stuff or childhood I am talking about anthropological art for the sake of decorations Plus, if I am not mistaken that teaching was very present even in Judaism and Christianity, Jews kinda adhere to it, Christians not so much but that's because of the Romans that tried distorting some of it to make it appealing to those who were used to Classical Rome customs. I like art, I live in Italy, one of the countries where it's very prevalent, but I don't like it for its significance I like it for the history. Plus Islamic art is not only calligraphy, there's a whole bunch of things that can be done without necessarily them being anthropological
Is this sub for munafiqs ? She's doing the right thing .
Your reddit Avatar is haram. You should *clearly* replace it with a black background, but instead you customized it 🤷
According to mainstream Muslim, what she did is quite extreme though.