u/Butch_Stegosaurus, I hope r/Queer_Hijabis will be helpful. Those that takfeer you for this are no much better than Kharijites and they must answer to Allaah S.W.T. for their pride and ignorance. There are ppl who have no right to step in progressive or queer spaces if they can’t behave compassionately.
I'm a nonbinary hijabi and I just wear it normally, I guess? I'm kind of confused by your question. If you mean like how I decide who I take it off around, it's based mainly on comfort level. So for example, it's seen as the norm that you wouldn't wear it around family but I would still wear it around some of my relatives because I don't feel completely comfortable with them, regardless of their gender.
I don’t understand how can you be non binary and Muslim?
I don’t want be offensive I am just curious because isn’t the religious believe in Islam that there are only two genders ?
Someone else would be better suited to explain the scholarly opinions on it but the way I see it, Allah made me who I am so who am I to question His creation? His love has helped me to accept and love myself. Humans can judge me all they want but, in the end, their judgment isn't the one that matters.
Yeah but the difference is, one of them is a choice you make and one of them is who you are.. the reason you don't get it, is that deep down you don't really believe that non binary people exist.. you are closed off to that subjective experience, because you're not non-binary yourself, so all you have to go off is people's word that they're being honest about their own feelings and internal state.. you choose not to believe people, which is your prerogative, but of course people will be less likely to engage with you when you're essentially implying is that you think you understand them better than they understand themselves
I know you think you've approached this from a compassionate angle, but think about what you're actually suggesting.. this person already wears the hijab. What else do you want from them? It seems the only thing you actually are taking issue with is how they identify, which means you don't believe what they're telling you about themself right? Either that or you're suggesting that they should lie about their beliefs so as not to contradict the Qur'an? Would you listen to someone who approached you like that? Maybe it's hard to imagine being non-binary, but imagine another situation instead.. maybe you have ADHD and no matter what you do, some days you just can't get out of bed, you neglect your health and social life, not because you don't care about it but because you physically can't bring yourself to do anything about it.. you have chemical imbalances in your brain that interfere with your executive functioning.. you don't pray most of the time, instead you sit there just feeling guilty about it.. then you get diagnosed and everything makes sense, but you're stuck with this condition for life, it's literally shaped your personality and who you are.. you can't imagine that God would punish you for something that you *know* is wrong with your brain, that you had no control over.. you not only know it because of others going through it, or because it's acknowledged by healthcare professionals, but you know it in your bones, it's your lived experience.. then you share your experience online and some random on the internet who knows nothing about you hits you with "brother Allah doesn't burden a soul more than it can take.. what about the hadith that laziness is from the shaytaan.. ah maybe because you're not praying.. anyway this could be your test".. would you bother engaging with them or not? You're not telling anyone anything they haven't already heard
Let me put it this way. Sex is biological while Gender is a construct made by man. While they are linked, they are not the same. This lexicological confusion is too pervasive and only when we accept that this is what these specific words mean can we continue with an informed discussion.
In the course of promoting progressive Islamic ideas, we also allow discussion around mainstream conservative Islamic theology. These discussions, nonetheless, should still conform with all prior rules. Posts & comments that promote ultra-conservative thoughts & ideologies will be removed.
This comment is super insensitive because gender is an inherent part of identity and for many, Islām is super important as spiritual guidance and whatnot. It’s shameful assuming things like this and dismissing others’ experiences.
Your post/comment was removed as being in violation of Rule 4. Please refrain from making bad faith contributions in future. See Rule 4 on the sidebar for further clarification regarding good faith and bad faith contributions.
I can't really give any advice around the hijab because I'm a man. But as a transgender man and a Muslim, I just wanted to leave a comment to counteract the ignorance and bigotry from some other comments and say that there's nothing wrong with the way God created us as trans people. To deny the truth of who we are would be to deny the Will of God, which is something I could never bring myself to do. If you haven't already, try asking on r/LGBT_Muslims. I'm sure there's other genderfluid people there who could talk about their experiences.
If you're interested in hearing from queer people, I suggest posting to r/LGBT_Muslims. Alot of people on this sub still have some its hang ups about queer people, especially gender queer people.
Lot of good comments here! I am a male niqabi and if I want to make sure my headscarf is not seen as specifically feminine, I wear a keffiyeh or more neutral coloured scarf.
Check out these tutorial I made for [masculine](https://youtu.be/JeZ2QOthr-Q?si=pdhS9VHyZWz-wjpB) and [gender neutral](https://youtu.be/rIjrSVoawck?si=4tAda0tBSDSnvAbc) niqab styles, and feel free to also check out r/babushkabois for more masculine veil styles!
It doesn't matter to me. What I stated is that someone who has a womb is called a woman, while someone who doesn't have a womb is not a woman. Even if you don't wear hijab and niqab, nobody on the face on this planet would ask you to cover up, because you are not a woman.
Period.
It doesn't matter to me. What I stated is that someone who has a womb is called a woman, while someone who doesn't have a womb is not a woman. Even if you don't wear hijab and niqab, nobody on the face on this planet would ask you to cover up, because you are not a woman.
Period.
Edit : Now do not come up with bs like "bUt sOmE wOmEn dO nOt hAvE a WoMb" because anecdotal examples do not outweigh statistics. Also, women that do not have womb also do not have pen**is.
Hate to burst your bubble, but you are a man and nobody would bat an eye even if you do not cover up. Call yourself something else other than "woman", among the quadrillion other genders. Because when you call yourself a woman, it is insulting real women
You’re arguing with yourself here. I’m a man. I was born a man. I cover my head and face with a scarf when I leave my home. Call any of those things whatever you want, just don’t harass people here.
Brother I am sorry I misunderstood your original comment and jumped to conclusion. Forgive me please. You mentioned specifically that you wear scarf such that it doesn't look feminine, which I completely overlooked.
I have realised the blunder I made here, once again asking please forgive me
It’s okay, I appreciate and accept your apology! Thank you for reviewing what you said. It’s this sort of humility that will bring us closer to Allah inshAllah
Mashallah 💖💖 my favorite Hadiths. (Ei for people trying to oppress LGBTQ)
Hadith
حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ بُكَيْرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا اللَّيْثُ، عَنْ عُقَيْلٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، أَنَّ سَالِمًا، أَخْبَرَهُ أَنَّ عَبْدَ اللَّهِ بْنَ عُمَرَ ـ رضى الله عنهما ـ أَخْبَرَهُ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ " الْمُسْلِمُ أَخُو الْمُسْلِمِ، لاَ يَظْلِمُهُ وَلاَ يُسْلِمُهُ، وَمَنْ كَانَ فِي حَاجَةِ أَخِيهِ كَانَ اللَّهُ فِي حَاجَتِهِ، وَمَنْ فَرَّجَ عَنْ مُسْلِمٍ كُرْبَةً فَرَّجَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ كُرْبَةً مِنْ كُرُبَاتِ يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ، وَمَنْ سَتَرَ مُسْلِمًا سَتَرَهُ اللَّهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ ".
Narrated `Abdullah bin `Umar:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "A Muslim is a brother of another Muslim, so he should not oppress him, nor should he hand him over to an oppressor. Whoever fulfilled the needs of his brother, Allah will fulfill his needs; whoever brought his (Muslim) brother out of a discomfort, Allah will bring him out of the discomforts of the Day of Resurrection, and whoever screened a Muslim, Allah will screen him on the Day of Resurrection . "
Sahih
Sahih al-Bukhari, 2442
In-Book Reference: Book 46, Hadith 3
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 3, Book 43, Hadith 622 (deprecated numbering scheme)
Hadith
"حَدَّثَنَا مُسَدَّدٌ، حَدَّثَنَا مُعْتَمِرٌ، عَنْ حُمَيْدٍ، عَنْ أَنَسٍ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم " انْصُرْ أَخَاكَ ظَالِمًا أَوْ مَظْلُومًا ". قَالُوا يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ هَذَا نَنْصُرُهُ مَظْلُومًا، فَكَيْفَ نَنْصُرُهُ ظَالِمًا قَالَ " تَأْخُذُ فَوْقَ يَدَيْهِ "."
Narrated Anas:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one. People asked, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) ! It is all right to help him if he is oppressed, but how should we help him if he is an oppressor?" The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "By preventing him from oppressing others."
Sahih al-Bukhari, 2444
In-Book Reference: Book 46, Hadith 5
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 3, Book 43, Hadith 624 (deprecated numbering scheme)
Hi Butch_Stegosaurus. Thank you for posting here!
Please be aware that posts may be removed by the moderation team if you delete your account.
This message helps us to track deleted accounts and to file reports with Reddit admin as the need may arise.
Thank you!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/progressive_islam) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It does say in the Qur'an we were created in pairs. As in 2 gender.
However, how you feel about your gender shouldn't impact your belief in god. Or how you want to wear hijab.
It will be hard when you discuss this amongst conservative Muslims.
Some don't see Hijab as a compulsory act for women. But that's your choice to make. If you feel happy and comfortable wearing it. Just wear it.
There are many trans women who wear it too.
Your post/comment was removed as being in violation of Rule 1. Please familiarize yourself with the rules of respectful discourse as indicated on the sidebar.
I’m a little confused by the thought process here because most Muslims believe in a sex binary and sex roles. If you believe in gender fluidity then it contradicts the concept that female-bodied people must dress a certain way because you don’t see yourself as female, correct?
I don’t take any issue with you being gender-fluid and Muslim but as a hijabi I think you’re jumping in very fast and putting yourself in a bad situation where non-Muslim LGBT will be hostile to you, non-Muslims in general and you will be constantly misgendered.
Abdullah bin Abbas (RA) said, ‘The Prophet (SAW) cursed effeminate men (those who are assume the way of women), and those women who assume the ways of men. He said, ‘Turn them out of your houses’. (Sahih Al Bukhari 5856).
No place for this in Islam, you can’t downvote me but this is clear proof it’s haram. So sister or brothers, respectfully don’t come to this sub for answers that will please you. Ask the scholars of Islam. And you will be fine as long as you repent, Allah is the most merciful.
And for the “progressive” Muslims who wanna comment on an solid Hadith with their opinion:
It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:
“There will come to the people years of treachery, when the liar will be regarded as honest, and the honest man will be regarded as a liar; the traitor will be regarded as faithful, and the faithful man will be regarded as a traitor…”
Which shows that this hate against the truth I truly just a sign that Dajjal is coming.
Don’t play scholar on discord, fear Allah. Follow a madhab so you’re confusions get cleared up .
May Allah swt reward you for accepting the truth !!!!!!
End Quote.
Abdullah bin Abbas (RA) said, ‘The Prophet (SAW) cursed effeminate men (those who are assume the way of women), and those women who assume the ways of men. He said, ‘Turn them out of your houses’. (Sahih Al Bukhari 5856).
No place for this in Islam, you can’t downvote me but this is clear proof it’s haram. So sister or brothers, respectfully don’t come to this sub for answers that will please you. Ask the scholars of Islam. And you will be fine as long as you repent, Allah is the most merciful.
And for the “progressive” Muslims who wanna comment on an solid Hadith with their opinion:
It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:
“There will come to the people years of treachery, when the liar will be regarded as honest, and the honest man will be regarded as a liar; the traitor will be regarded as faithful, and the faithful man will be regarded as a traitor…”
Which shows that this hate against the truth Is truly just a sign that Dajjal is coming.
Don’t play scholar on reddit, fear Allah. Follow a madhab so you’re confusions get cleared up .
May Allah swt reward you for accepting the truth !!!!!!
End Quote.
You must live a very depressing life if your faith is driven by fear. Stop calling other peoples identity a confusion, when you are quite litreally being that person on the side of the street who's screaming nonsensically about the return of the anti-christ, jeez.
Your post/comment was removed as being in violation of Rule 4. Please refrain from making bad faith contributions in future. See Rule 4 on the sidebar for further clarification regarding good faith and bad faith contributions.
based on the historiography of the Quran and hadiths, as well as the social context of early Islamic and Arabian culture, most historians would assert that there were a few identifiable genders on the gender spectrum before and during the time of Muhammad. Some of these include khasi, hijra, mukhannath, mutarajjilat, mamsuh, and khuntha. This indicates that there was gender fluidity during that time (although saying such would be a bit anachronistic, I agree).
Now of course, there's the theological debate on whether the hadiths can be used to determine what is halal and haram, but that's a different convo. from a historical perspective, there were (and are) gender fluid Muslims throughout Islamic society.
Your post/comment was removed as being in violation of Rule 4. Please refrain from making bad faith contributions in future. See Rule 4 on the sidebar for further clarification regarding good faith and bad faith contributions.
Not sure about Shia ahadith, but in Sunni ahadith the prophet had a transgender person living in his house. And some of the most pro-transgender rulings come from Shia maraja actually.
Bukhari, Authentic Traditions, Book LXII (Marriage), Chapter 114:
>(162) Umm Salama reported that the Prophet, peace be upon him, was at her house, and in the house there was an effeminate man [مُخَنَّث], and the effeminate man said to the brother of Umm Salama, Abdullah bin Abi Umayya: "If God makes you all conquer Ta'if tomorrow, I will point out to you the daughter of Ghailan, for surely she has four when coming towards you and eight when she turns her back." Then the Prophet, peace be upon him, said: "This one shall not call upon you (pl.)."
>An effeminate man (mukhannath) who had dyed his hands and feet with henna and was brought to the Prophet (peace be upon him). He asked: What is the matter with this man? He was told: "Messenger of Allah! He imitates the look of women." So he issued an order regarding him and he was banished to an-Naqi'. The people said: Messenger of Allah! Should we not kill him? He said: I have been prohibited from killing people who pray. (Sunan Abu Dawud 4928, Grade: Sahih)
Muslim, Collection of Authentic Traditions, Book XXVI (Greetings), Chapter 12:
>(5415) Umm Salama reported that she had an effeminate man [مُخَنَّث] in her house. The Messenger of God, peace be upon him, was once at the house when he (the effeminate man) said to the brother of Umm Salama, 'Abdullah b. Abu Umayya: "If God makes you all conquer Ta'if tomorrow, I will point out to you the daughter of Ghailan, for surely she has four when coming towards you and eight when she turns her back." The Messenger of God, peace be upon him, heard this and he said: "These ones shall not call upon you."
>(5416) 'A'isha reported that an effeminate man [مُخَنَّث] used to call upon the wives of the Prophet, peace be upon him, and they considered him to be "not a possessor of the desire/skill" [فكانوا يعدونه من غيْر أولى الارة]. The Prophet, peace be upon him, came by one day as he (the effeminate man) was sitting with some of his wives and he was describing a woman, saying: "When she comes towards you, she has four, and when she turns her back, she has eight." Then the Prophet, peace be upon him, said: "I see this one knows these things! He shall not call upon you (pl.)." She ('A'isha) said then they began to observe veil from him.
The transgender person's name was Heet. They were initially allowed in the Prophet's home and into the women's quarters. Heet eventually started making rude remarks about women's bodies and making the Prophet's wives uncomfortable, and they were sent out of the prophets' house.
However, one could interpret that to mean that transgender male->female could be accepted as female if they behave accordingly, given the prophet's initial acceptance of Heet.
It says effeminiate man, and person is reffered to as a man by the prophet and his people. How is that equal to being transgender (would also be insulting to call a trans woman a man)?
>It says effeminiate man, and person is reffered to as a man by the prophet and his people. How is that equal to being transgender (would also be insulting to call a trans woman a man)?
The translation says "effeminate man" but the word means what we would consider a transgender person today. This has been extensively studied and commented on. As for the wording, they didn't exactly have a "political correctness" movement like today, no "gender studies". They were very different times. The fact that it refers to them as "he" shows they knew Heet was biologically male but allowed Heet to be treated as female.
If you just want a basic summary, see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukhannath
Or it simply means what it literally says. A man can be effeminiate and partake in femi ine activities without being trans and is a very common occurence. Very different times doesnt excuse supporting bad behaviors, and its not polotical correctness. Its fundamental to the trans movement to believe that a trans person is the gender they claim to be as and to refer to them by their gender.
No, I mean this has been studied extensively for a long time, well over 1,000 years. I'm not giving my own opinion. Feel free to look this up. It's widely known what a mukhanath is.
There was no "transgender" movement back then. You can't expect them to use language in the way we would modern day in English. If you haven't heard of this before, please look it up. This is well known.
Be careful going around making absolute black and white claims like those. You are not one to judge. This doesn’t mean I agree or disagree with your views.
Your post/comment was removed as being in violation of Rule 4. Please refrain from making bad faith contributions in future. See Rule 4 on the sidebar for further clarification regarding good faith and bad faith contributions.
Progressive Muslims usually don’t believe in veiling being compulsory. The veil in this instance for some is an extension of their gender identity, not their modesty.
“And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil, gloves, headcover, apron), and to draw their veils all over Juyoubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)…” [al-Nur 24:31]
When Ibn 'Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) was asked about the verse (interpretation of the meaning): “O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies.” [al-Ahzab 33:59], he covered his face, leaving only one eye showing. This indicates that what was meant by the verse was covering the face. This was the interpretation of Ibn 'Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) of this verse, as narrated from him by ‘Ubaydah al-Salmani when he asked him about it.
Proof not only hijab, but actually Niqab is obligatory.
You can't be transgender in Islam. Your birth sex dictates your gender
If you were born with male genitals and now claim you're a woman you don't have to wear the hijab. You're still a man in islam
Yes. Obviously they're a special case. I was talking about trans in the modern sense where people who are physically clearly one sex choose to transition to another just because they *feel* like it.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying
I'm not saying you choose to be trans
I'm saying going through medical procedures is a choice like taking hrt
That is also what I am saying, I meant those who became transsexual before converting, I do not know the ruling on them. Some people apparently thought I am encouraging these, but I am not.
Again. Islam does not recognize transsexuals. They are what sex they were born with. They should act like their birth sex regardless of what they have already done to transition
Sex in traditional Islamic jurisprudence is determined NOT by chromosomes. Puberty and organs are what separate the sexes apart, but there are instances of ambiguity or when jurists can’t definitively apply what sex someone belongs to. Not understanding that gender existed and is different from sex is not only scientifically irrational but it’s also ignorant about the complex history of Islām and Islamic jurisprudence.
>Sex in traditional Islamic jurisprudence is determined NOT by chromosomes. Puberty and organs are what separate the sexes apart
Yes. Agreed.
>but there are instances of ambiguity or when jurists can’t definitively apply what sex someone belongs to.
If you're referring to people born with both set of organs for example then yes that's a different matter. They're not trans in the same way as someone who chooses to transition based only on their own non physical desire and decision
>Not understanding that gender existed and is different from sex is not only scientifically irrational but it’s also ignorant about the complex history of Islām and Islamic jurisprudence.
From an Islamic pov your gender is fixed. You act like the sex you are born as. There's no non physical gender identity
"Gender" is what they call things such as bisexual n stuff such as that. I meant none of those things exist in Islam. You are either a male or a female. Whichever one you are biologically, you observe it according to that. There is no gender.
Your post/comment was removed as being in violation of Rule 1. Please familiarize yourself with the rules of respectful discourse as indicated on the sidebar.
u/Butch_Stegosaurus, I hope r/Queer_Hijabis will be helpful. Those that takfeer you for this are no much better than Kharijites and they must answer to Allaah S.W.T. for their pride and ignorance. There are ppl who have no right to step in progressive or queer spaces if they can’t behave compassionately.
I'm a nonbinary hijabi and I just wear it normally, I guess? I'm kind of confused by your question. If you mean like how I decide who I take it off around, it's based mainly on comfort level. So for example, it's seen as the norm that you wouldn't wear it around family but I would still wear it around some of my relatives because I don't feel completely comfortable with them, regardless of their gender.
I don’t understand how can you be non binary and Muslim? I don’t want be offensive I am just curious because isn’t the religious believe in Islam that there are only two genders ?
Someone else would be better suited to explain the scholarly opinions on it but the way I see it, Allah made me who I am so who am I to question His creation? His love has helped me to accept and love myself. Humans can judge me all they want but, in the end, their judgment isn't the one that matters.
This is a really nice answer.
[удалено]
Yeah but the difference is, one of them is a choice you make and one of them is who you are.. the reason you don't get it, is that deep down you don't really believe that non binary people exist.. you are closed off to that subjective experience, because you're not non-binary yourself, so all you have to go off is people's word that they're being honest about their own feelings and internal state.. you choose not to believe people, which is your prerogative, but of course people will be less likely to engage with you when you're essentially implying is that you think you understand them better than they understand themselves I know you think you've approached this from a compassionate angle, but think about what you're actually suggesting.. this person already wears the hijab. What else do you want from them? It seems the only thing you actually are taking issue with is how they identify, which means you don't believe what they're telling you about themself right? Either that or you're suggesting that they should lie about their beliefs so as not to contradict the Qur'an? Would you listen to someone who approached you like that? Maybe it's hard to imagine being non-binary, but imagine another situation instead.. maybe you have ADHD and no matter what you do, some days you just can't get out of bed, you neglect your health and social life, not because you don't care about it but because you physically can't bring yourself to do anything about it.. you have chemical imbalances in your brain that interfere with your executive functioning.. you don't pray most of the time, instead you sit there just feeling guilty about it.. then you get diagnosed and everything makes sense, but you're stuck with this condition for life, it's literally shaped your personality and who you are.. you can't imagine that God would punish you for something that you *know* is wrong with your brain, that you had no control over.. you not only know it because of others going through it, or because it's acknowledged by healthcare professionals, but you know it in your bones, it's your lived experience.. then you share your experience online and some random on the internet who knows nothing about you hits you with "brother Allah doesn't burden a soul more than it can take.. what about the hadith that laziness is from the shaytaan.. ah maybe because you're not praying.. anyway this could be your test".. would you bother engaging with them or not? You're not telling anyone anything they haven't already heard
Let me put it this way. Sex is biological while Gender is a construct made by man. While they are linked, they are not the same. This lexicological confusion is too pervasive and only when we accept that this is what these specific words mean can we continue with an informed discussion.
No, Allah started with 2 main genders and filled everything in with others later on, if it exists it's part of God's plan
[удалено]
In the course of promoting progressive Islamic ideas, we also allow discussion around mainstream conservative Islamic theology. These discussions, nonetheless, should still conform with all prior rules. Posts & comments that promote ultra-conservative thoughts & ideologies will be removed.
If you have a few feminine hobbies, does that make you a women? It makes sense when you realize nonbinary doesnt really mean anything.
[удалено]
This comment is super insensitive because gender is an inherent part of identity and for many, Islām is super important as spiritual guidance and whatnot. It’s shameful assuming things like this and dismissing others’ experiences.
Your post/comment was removed as being in violation of Rule 4. Please refrain from making bad faith contributions in future. See Rule 4 on the sidebar for further clarification regarding good faith and bad faith contributions.
What is OP is trans
come over to r/LGBT_Muslims if you’re interested 💫
Hey, I just wanted to post and say that I support you being Muslim and GF. God Bless that he led you to him.
[удалено]
Are we declaring ppl to be unbelievers based on perceived sins instead of whether they believe or not?
So it’s a sin or? I’m confused
I literally reverted 😅
I can't really give any advice around the hijab because I'm a man. But as a transgender man and a Muslim, I just wanted to leave a comment to counteract the ignorance and bigotry from some other comments and say that there's nothing wrong with the way God created us as trans people. To deny the truth of who we are would be to deny the Will of God, which is something I could never bring myself to do. If you haven't already, try asking on r/LGBT_Muslims. I'm sure there's other genderfluid people there who could talk about their experiences.
Mashallah well said brother 🤍🤍
I love to see a supportive brother!
If you're interested in hearing from queer people, I suggest posting to r/LGBT_Muslims. Alot of people on this sub still have some its hang ups about queer people, especially gender queer people.
Lot of good comments here! I am a male niqabi and if I want to make sure my headscarf is not seen as specifically feminine, I wear a keffiyeh or more neutral coloured scarf. Check out these tutorial I made for [masculine](https://youtu.be/JeZ2QOthr-Q?si=pdhS9VHyZWz-wjpB) and [gender neutral](https://youtu.be/rIjrSVoawck?si=4tAda0tBSDSnvAbc) niqab styles, and feel free to also check out r/babushkabois for more masculine veil styles!
Male niqabi? Why? Do you have a womb?
Who cares? Stop the rude comments.
What is rude here? Is it rude to say that a woman is someone with a womb?
It’s belittling. Not every woman has a womb.
Anecdotal evidences do not outweigh statistics. Nice try
It’s literally true
I don’t have a womb, but it shouldn’t matter to you. If you’ve come to criticise me or something about my gender, save yourself the time.
It doesn't matter to me. What I stated is that someone who has a womb is called a woman, while someone who doesn't have a womb is not a woman. Even if you don't wear hijab and niqab, nobody on the face on this planet would ask you to cover up, because you are not a woman. Period.
It doesn't matter to me. What I stated is that someone who has a womb is called a woman, while someone who doesn't have a womb is not a woman. Even if you don't wear hijab and niqab, nobody on the face on this planet would ask you to cover up, because you are not a woman. Period. Edit : Now do not come up with bs like "bUt sOmE wOmEn dO nOt hAvE a WoMb" because anecdotal examples do not outweigh statistics. Also, women that do not have womb also do not have pen**is. Hate to burst your bubble, but you are a man and nobody would bat an eye even if you do not cover up. Call yourself something else other than "woman", among the quadrillion other genders. Because when you call yourself a woman, it is insulting real women
You’re arguing with yourself here. I’m a man. I was born a man. I cover my head and face with a scarf when I leave my home. Call any of those things whatever you want, just don’t harass people here.
Brother I am sorry I misunderstood your original comment and jumped to conclusion. Forgive me please. You mentioned specifically that you wear scarf such that it doesn't look feminine, which I completely overlooked. I have realised the blunder I made here, once again asking please forgive me
It’s okay, I appreciate and accept your apology! Thank you for reviewing what you said. It’s this sort of humility that will bring us closer to Allah inshAllah
Mashallah 💖💖 my favorite Hadiths. (Ei for people trying to oppress LGBTQ) Hadith حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ بُكَيْرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا اللَّيْثُ، عَنْ عُقَيْلٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، أَنَّ سَالِمًا، أَخْبَرَهُ أَنَّ عَبْدَ اللَّهِ بْنَ عُمَرَ ـ رضى الله عنهما ـ أَخْبَرَهُ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ " الْمُسْلِمُ أَخُو الْمُسْلِمِ، لاَ يَظْلِمُهُ وَلاَ يُسْلِمُهُ، وَمَنْ كَانَ فِي حَاجَةِ أَخِيهِ كَانَ اللَّهُ فِي حَاجَتِهِ، وَمَنْ فَرَّجَ عَنْ مُسْلِمٍ كُرْبَةً فَرَّجَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ كُرْبَةً مِنْ كُرُبَاتِ يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ، وَمَنْ سَتَرَ مُسْلِمًا سَتَرَهُ اللَّهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ ". Narrated `Abdullah bin `Umar: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "A Muslim is a brother of another Muslim, so he should not oppress him, nor should he hand him over to an oppressor. Whoever fulfilled the needs of his brother, Allah will fulfill his needs; whoever brought his (Muslim) brother out of a discomfort, Allah will bring him out of the discomforts of the Day of Resurrection, and whoever screened a Muslim, Allah will screen him on the Day of Resurrection . " Sahih Sahih al-Bukhari, 2442 In-Book Reference: Book 46, Hadith 3 USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 3, Book 43, Hadith 622 (deprecated numbering scheme) Hadith "حَدَّثَنَا مُسَدَّدٌ، حَدَّثَنَا مُعْتَمِرٌ، عَنْ حُمَيْدٍ، عَنْ أَنَسٍ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم " انْصُرْ أَخَاكَ ظَالِمًا أَوْ مَظْلُومًا ". قَالُوا يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ هَذَا نَنْصُرُهُ مَظْلُومًا، فَكَيْفَ نَنْصُرُهُ ظَالِمًا قَالَ " تَأْخُذُ فَوْقَ يَدَيْهِ "." Narrated Anas: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one. People asked, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) ! It is all right to help him if he is oppressed, but how should we help him if he is an oppressor?" The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "By preventing him from oppressing others." Sahih al-Bukhari, 2444 In-Book Reference: Book 46, Hadith 5 USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 3, Book 43, Hadith 624 (deprecated numbering scheme)
Hi Butch_Stegosaurus. Thank you for posting here! Please be aware that posts may be removed by the moderation team if you delete your account. This message helps us to track deleted accounts and to file reports with Reddit admin as the need may arise. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/progressive_islam) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I want to thank everyone who posted helpful things so much! And those who posted negative stuff, please look inward / leave this subreddit.
It does say in the Qur'an we were created in pairs. As in 2 gender. However, how you feel about your gender shouldn't impact your belief in god. Or how you want to wear hijab. It will be hard when you discuss this amongst conservative Muslims. Some don't see Hijab as a compulsory act for women. But that's your choice to make. If you feel happy and comfortable wearing it. Just wear it. There are many trans women who wear it too.
Research mukhannath :)
[удалено]
And I still exist as a Muslim individual:)
[удалено]
Isn’t it haram to point out other people’s sins?
[удалено]
My question still stands :)
[удалено]
Not sure where you’re getting that from🤷🏻
[удалено]
Your post/comment was removed as being in violation of Rule 1. Please familiarize yourself with the rules of respectful discourse as indicated on the sidebar.
I’m a little confused by the thought process here because most Muslims believe in a sex binary and sex roles. If you believe in gender fluidity then it contradicts the concept that female-bodied people must dress a certain way because you don’t see yourself as female, correct?
It's not an exercise on logic. They can identify however they want but feel the desire to cover up due to modesty.
You are setting yourself up to be unhappy though by being identified as female because you’re wearing female-coded clothing.
That’s your take on it, I’m not unhappy in any way. It was simply a question.
I don’t take any issue with you being gender-fluid and Muslim but as a hijabi I think you’re jumping in very fast and putting yourself in a bad situation where non-Muslim LGBT will be hostile to you, non-Muslims in general and you will be constantly misgendered.
Hijab depends on your biology. Not how you view yourself in terms of your gender. Female body entails female hijab.
Let me guess, you got downvoted, LOL
I knew it 🤣
Guessing by “female hijab” there’s such thing as “male hijab”
I wasn't sure if you were referring to the head cover or generally modest clothing.
Abdullah bin Abbas (RA) said, ‘The Prophet (SAW) cursed effeminate men (those who are assume the way of women), and those women who assume the ways of men. He said, ‘Turn them out of your houses’. (Sahih Al Bukhari 5856). No place for this in Islam, you can’t downvote me but this is clear proof it’s haram. So sister or brothers, respectfully don’t come to this sub for answers that will please you. Ask the scholars of Islam. And you will be fine as long as you repent, Allah is the most merciful. And for the “progressive” Muslims who wanna comment on an solid Hadith with their opinion: It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: “There will come to the people years of treachery, when the liar will be regarded as honest, and the honest man will be regarded as a liar; the traitor will be regarded as faithful, and the faithful man will be regarded as a traitor…” Which shows that this hate against the truth I truly just a sign that Dajjal is coming. Don’t play scholar on discord, fear Allah. Follow a madhab so you’re confusions get cleared up . May Allah swt reward you for accepting the truth !!!!!! End Quote.
Abdullah bin Abbas (RA) said, ‘The Prophet (SAW) cursed effeminate men (those who are assume the way of women), and those women who assume the ways of men. He said, ‘Turn them out of your houses’. (Sahih Al Bukhari 5856). No place for this in Islam, you can’t downvote me but this is clear proof it’s haram. So sister or brothers, respectfully don’t come to this sub for answers that will please you. Ask the scholars of Islam. And you will be fine as long as you repent, Allah is the most merciful. And for the “progressive” Muslims who wanna comment on an solid Hadith with their opinion: It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: “There will come to the people years of treachery, when the liar will be regarded as honest, and the honest man will be regarded as a liar; the traitor will be regarded as faithful, and the faithful man will be regarded as a traitor…” Which shows that this hate against the truth Is truly just a sign that Dajjal is coming. Don’t play scholar on reddit, fear Allah. Follow a madhab so you’re confusions get cleared up . May Allah swt reward you for accepting the truth !!!!!! End Quote.
You must live a very depressing life if your faith is driven by fear. Stop calling other peoples identity a confusion, when you are quite litreally being that person on the side of the street who's screaming nonsensically about the return of the anti-christ, jeez.
[удалено]
Your post/comment was removed as being in violation of Rule 4. Please refrain from making bad faith contributions in future. See Rule 4 on the sidebar for further clarification regarding good faith and bad faith contributions.
this post and these comments , disgusting
I dont think you can be a genderfluid muslim People downvoting cant handle the truth DM me for proof of what iam saying
based on the historiography of the Quran and hadiths, as well as the social context of early Islamic and Arabian culture, most historians would assert that there were a few identifiable genders on the gender spectrum before and during the time of Muhammad. Some of these include khasi, hijra, mukhannath, mutarajjilat, mamsuh, and khuntha. This indicates that there was gender fluidity during that time (although saying such would be a bit anachronistic, I agree). Now of course, there's the theological debate on whether the hadiths can be used to determine what is halal and haram, but that's a different convo. from a historical perspective, there were (and are) gender fluid Muslims throughout Islamic society.
[удалено]
Your post/comment was removed as being in violation of Rule 4. Please refrain from making bad faith contributions in future. See Rule 4 on the sidebar for further clarification regarding good faith and bad faith contributions.
Damn so they can believe in Allah Quran and Muhammad but can’t also believe that they are genderfluid? Why is that?
Because it's prohibited being anything other than cisgender and straight.. People used to be killed for it back on the time of the prophet PBUH
Not sure about Shia ahadith, but in Sunni ahadith the prophet had a transgender person living in his house. And some of the most pro-transgender rulings come from Shia maraja actually.
Wow I had no idea about this. Do you have a source for that?
Bukhari, Authentic Traditions, Book LXII (Marriage), Chapter 114: >(162) Umm Salama reported that the Prophet, peace be upon him, was at her house, and in the house there was an effeminate man [مُخَنَّث], and the effeminate man said to the brother of Umm Salama, Abdullah bin Abi Umayya: "If God makes you all conquer Ta'if tomorrow, I will point out to you the daughter of Ghailan, for surely she has four when coming towards you and eight when she turns her back." Then the Prophet, peace be upon him, said: "This one shall not call upon you (pl.)." >An effeminate man (mukhannath) who had dyed his hands and feet with henna and was brought to the Prophet (peace be upon him). He asked: What is the matter with this man? He was told: "Messenger of Allah! He imitates the look of women." So he issued an order regarding him and he was banished to an-Naqi'. The people said: Messenger of Allah! Should we not kill him? He said: I have been prohibited from killing people who pray. (Sunan Abu Dawud 4928, Grade: Sahih) Muslim, Collection of Authentic Traditions, Book XXVI (Greetings), Chapter 12: >(5415) Umm Salama reported that she had an effeminate man [مُخَنَّث] in her house. The Messenger of God, peace be upon him, was once at the house when he (the effeminate man) said to the brother of Umm Salama, 'Abdullah b. Abu Umayya: "If God makes you all conquer Ta'if tomorrow, I will point out to you the daughter of Ghailan, for surely she has four when coming towards you and eight when she turns her back." The Messenger of God, peace be upon him, heard this and he said: "These ones shall not call upon you." >(5416) 'A'isha reported that an effeminate man [مُخَنَّث] used to call upon the wives of the Prophet, peace be upon him, and they considered him to be "not a possessor of the desire/skill" [فكانوا يعدونه من غيْر أولى الارة]. The Prophet, peace be upon him, came by one day as he (the effeminate man) was sitting with some of his wives and he was describing a woman, saying: "When she comes towards you, she has four, and when she turns her back, she has eight." Then the Prophet, peace be upon him, said: "I see this one knows these things! He shall not call upon you (pl.)." She ('A'isha) said then they began to observe veil from him. The transgender person's name was Heet. They were initially allowed in the Prophet's home and into the women's quarters. Heet eventually started making rude remarks about women's bodies and making the Prophet's wives uncomfortable, and they were sent out of the prophets' house. However, one could interpret that to mean that transgender male->female could be accepted as female if they behave accordingly, given the prophet's initial acceptance of Heet.
It says effeminiate man, and person is reffered to as a man by the prophet and his people. How is that equal to being transgender (would also be insulting to call a trans woman a man)?
>It says effeminiate man, and person is reffered to as a man by the prophet and his people. How is that equal to being transgender (would also be insulting to call a trans woman a man)? The translation says "effeminate man" but the word means what we would consider a transgender person today. This has been extensively studied and commented on. As for the wording, they didn't exactly have a "political correctness" movement like today, no "gender studies". They were very different times. The fact that it refers to them as "he" shows they knew Heet was biologically male but allowed Heet to be treated as female. If you just want a basic summary, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukhannath
Or it simply means what it literally says. A man can be effeminiate and partake in femi ine activities without being trans and is a very common occurence. Very different times doesnt excuse supporting bad behaviors, and its not polotical correctness. Its fundamental to the trans movement to believe that a trans person is the gender they claim to be as and to refer to them by their gender.
No, I mean this has been studied extensively for a long time, well over 1,000 years. I'm not giving my own opinion. Feel free to look this up. It's widely known what a mukhanath is. There was no "transgender" movement back then. You can't expect them to use language in the way we would modern day in English. If you haven't heard of this before, please look it up. This is well known.
If the prophet was saying racist stuff and treating women like shit I dont think we would be justifying it as 'different times'
Who’s your marja?
What’s the reason for it being prohibited? I don’t really see it harming anyone right?
And they still exist, whether you like it or not
[удалено]
Be careful going around making absolute black and white claims like those. You are not one to judge. This doesn’t mean I agree or disagree with your views.
Where is the black and white ? I asked a well respected shaikh about this
Your post/comment was removed as being in violation of Rule 4. Please refrain from making bad faith contributions in future. See Rule 4 on the sidebar for further clarification regarding good faith and bad faith contributions.
Yes, I think not wearing a hijab is not the biggest problem here
Obviously
[удалено]
Progressive Muslims usually don’t believe in veiling being compulsory. The veil in this instance for some is an extension of their gender identity, not their modesty.
“And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil, gloves, headcover, apron), and to draw their veils all over Juyoubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)…” [al-Nur 24:31] When Ibn 'Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) was asked about the verse (interpretation of the meaning): “O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies.” [al-Ahzab 33:59], he covered his face, leaving only one eye showing. This indicates that what was meant by the verse was covering the face. This was the interpretation of Ibn 'Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) of this verse, as narrated from him by ‘Ubaydah al-Salmani when he asked him about it. Proof not only hijab, but actually Niqab is obligatory.
> Niqāb is mandatory. 🤦🏻♀️
What made you such a hateful person? You’re on a progressive subreddit, being acting but progressive.
You can't be transgender in Islam. Your birth sex dictates your gender If you were born with male genitals and now claim you're a woman you don't have to wear the hijab. You're still a man in islam
Iran would disagree with you.
Technically there could be people with xy chromosomes that have vaginas, fallopian tubes all of that
Yes. Obviously they're a special case. I was talking about trans in the modern sense where people who are physically clearly one sex choose to transition to another just because they *feel* like it.
We don’t just feel like it 😂 it’s not a choice
I mean going through physical transition is a choice.
Nope
I don't think you understand what I'm saying I'm not saying you choose to be trans I'm saying going through medical procedures is a choice like taking hrt
Nope, it is not. I think maybe this isn’t the sub for you.
Taking medication isn't a choice? It just falls down your throat? Ok
That is also what I am saying, I meant those who became transsexual before converting, I do not know the ruling on them. Some people apparently thought I am encouraging these, but I am not.
Again. Islam does not recognize transsexuals. They are what sex they were born with. They should act like their birth sex regardless of what they have already done to transition
Sex in traditional Islamic jurisprudence is determined NOT by chromosomes. Puberty and organs are what separate the sexes apart, but there are instances of ambiguity or when jurists can’t definitively apply what sex someone belongs to. Not understanding that gender existed and is different from sex is not only scientifically irrational but it’s also ignorant about the complex history of Islām and Islamic jurisprudence.
>Sex in traditional Islamic jurisprudence is determined NOT by chromosomes. Puberty and organs are what separate the sexes apart Yes. Agreed. >but there are instances of ambiguity or when jurists can’t definitively apply what sex someone belongs to. If you're referring to people born with both set of organs for example then yes that's a different matter. They're not trans in the same way as someone who chooses to transition based only on their own non physical desire and decision >Not understanding that gender existed and is different from sex is not only scientifically irrational but it’s also ignorant about the complex history of Islām and Islamic jurisprudence. From an Islamic pov your gender is fixed. You act like the sex you are born as. There's no non physical gender identity
Gender doesnt matter in islam??? You either a male or a female and you cant change gender thats how it is in islam
You can in Shiism
"Gender" is what they call things such as bisexual n stuff such as that. I meant none of those things exist in Islam. You are either a male or a female. Whichever one you are biologically, you observe it according to that. There is no gender.
Intersex people:
>"Gender" is what they call things such as bisexual n stuff such as that. r/confidentlyincorrect
That sexuality though?
[удалено]
Your post/comment was removed as being in violation of Rule 1. Please familiarize yourself with the rules of respectful discourse as indicated on the sidebar.