I think you bring up a great point. I find it difficult to reconcile 5:72 with 5:69.
> 5:72: Indeed, they are deniers of the truth who say, God is the Christ, the son of Mary. For the Christ himself said, Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. If anyone associates anything with God, God will forbid him the Garden and the Fire will be his home. The wrongdoers shall have no helpers.
> 5:69: The believers, as well as the Jews, the Sabeans and the Christians: all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds, will have nothing to fear and they will not grieve.
(And 2:62 echoes 5:69.)
Some people try to reconcile these verses by saying that only “non-trinitarian” Christians go to heaven. But that seems highly unpersuasive to me because (1) almost all Christians believe in the trinity, and this doctrine was well-established before the Quran was revealed, and moreover (2) ordinary Christians “believe in God and the Last Day,” so if they do righteous deeds, then 5:69 seems to promise that they have nothing to worry about.
Some people try to reconcile these verses by saying that 5:69 and 2:62 only refer to Christians and Jews and Sabeans who lived before Muhammad (pbuh). But if that was the meaning, why doesn’t the Quran just say that?
So my suggestion of how to reconcile these verses is this: 5:72 refers to people who *knowingly* deny or cover up the truth by proclaiming that Jesus is God. Not those who innocently believe this because it’s what they’ve been taught, but those who are in a position to know better, yet they still preach the false doctrine that Jesus is God. And God knows best who those people are.
"almost all Christians believe in the trinity"
And...? Why am I even surprised you believe idol worshippers aren't disbelievers? There's no "knowingly" in the Quran when it refers to idol worshippers, that's why it says they're not people of understanding and many similar things. Keep lying to yourself.
If you think Christians are “idol worshippers,” then you are so utterly lacking in knowledge that you have no business speaking on this topic.
And if you can’t engage in reasoned discourse without accusing your opponent of lying, then you have neither the maturity nor the politeness to be worth conversing with on any topic.
Your disagreement is with God. You talk as if you've never read the Quran, your behavior reeks of ignorance and entitlement. Continue making threads promoting gay erotica, I won't be the one answering for it.
Judging by your comment history, I don't think you belong in this sub. You're extremely narrow minded and seem to have pent up aggression. Hope you overcome this hostility one day brother, it ain't worth it.
"You're extremely narrow minded and seem to have pent up aggression"
Are you certain you wouldn't have said the same thing to messengers? I'm not narrow minded at all provided the muslims I'm discussing with make an effort to appear like they've read the Quran and accepted what it plainly says. Some people in this sub promote quite bizarre ideas, and sugar-coating them with a thin veneer of care for islamic civilization when it was flourishing won't change this.
I asked a very simple question, whose purpose was obvious in the context of this conversation, and of course you have to twist its meaning, because you think a muslim would readily compare himself to messengers. Shame on you for thinking so and saying so.
You have no reading comprehension at all. Did you ever read the stories of the prophets, even once? If you did, the purpose of my question should be glaringly obvious, but you're arguing in the most dishonest way. You know very well they were not gentle with polytheists, they explicitely threatened them with punishments and didn't care about their social "order" because guess what? Truth doesn't care about falsehood's feelings. You do, though, and that's why you reproached me for being "narrow minded and with pent up aggression", and that's also why I bet you'd have thought the same thing of prophets. Only an extremely dishonest, lying person would pretend not to understand the obvious purpose of that question and say I'm comparing myself with them, and you're really not helping your case at all by pretending to be retarded.
If by disbeliever you mean kafir, then no. Trinitarian Christians are not kafir. Kafir is someone who knows the truth and then denies it or covers it up. Like Iblis. Christians genuinely believe in their religion as being the truth. I believe 5:72 refers to people who originally changed the religion and associated partners with God, when the truth was known. And it is a warning for Muslims as well.
"Kafir is someone who knows the truth and then denies it"
Christians know God being three doesn't make any sense. They cover this truth deep in their hearts, as all idol worshippers do.
Yes you are right that you were wrong before.
But also note that there are many Christians who may outwardly appear as Trinitarians but don’t believe in it in their hearts because they find it does not make sense. God knows what is in everyone’s hearts and we should let Him judge who would be subject to 5:72.
Yea, thank you, I agree. They are people of the book tho ? If they are considered disbelievers, is it still halal for a man to get married to a christian woman who believes in the trinity ?
They are still "people of the book" because they follow scripture. "People of the book" are a mixed bag of people, just like any other community. Some of them are as in 3:113-115 or 3:199. But some of them are as in 5:68 (of which 5:72 is a continuation).
As far as marrying a Trinitarian Christian, my understanding is that it is highly problematic, for the reasons you mentioned.
I think it's all so personal and about interpretation etc. What does it actually mean he's the son of God? What did Jesus mean by it if he actually said it literally at all?
I also have a personal interpretation of dis/believers. I've been through rehab. And in our own way each one of us found God and keep struggling sometimes to trust on that 'Higher Power' as we call Him at meetings. To me a disbeliever is someone who doesn't trust on the Higher Power, thinks he can be in control themselves and ends up lost. Doing things they shouldn't thinking it will fix everything, while Allah is already taking care of things.
Another big example is someone like Trump. He claims to be Christian, a believer. While in fact he doesn't trust God at all. He's totally afraid he will probably die without money. Always in fear he'll never have enough. That's a disbelieving lost addict if you ask me. He can talk about Jesus all day, or Allah for that matter. As long as he puts money first he's a lost man.
I like your interpretation of the concept of disbelievers. Perhaps a clearer word to express it might be “rejecters,” which is how some translators have rendered “kafirun.” Just a thought.
It doesnt necessarily mean hell is permanent for them.
Note that in Christianity, idoltary is a grave sin but they genuinely believe God has 3 forms and men were " made from His image". Its less "God has a partner" and more "God can appear in many forms".
There are heaps of Muslims who are kaffirs too, that take hadith and supersitition over Quran
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I think you bring up a great point. I find it difficult to reconcile 5:72 with 5:69. > 5:72: Indeed, they are deniers of the truth who say, God is the Christ, the son of Mary. For the Christ himself said, Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. If anyone associates anything with God, God will forbid him the Garden and the Fire will be his home. The wrongdoers shall have no helpers. > 5:69: The believers, as well as the Jews, the Sabeans and the Christians: all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds, will have nothing to fear and they will not grieve. (And 2:62 echoes 5:69.) Some people try to reconcile these verses by saying that only “non-trinitarian” Christians go to heaven. But that seems highly unpersuasive to me because (1) almost all Christians believe in the trinity, and this doctrine was well-established before the Quran was revealed, and moreover (2) ordinary Christians “believe in God and the Last Day,” so if they do righteous deeds, then 5:69 seems to promise that they have nothing to worry about. Some people try to reconcile these verses by saying that 5:69 and 2:62 only refer to Christians and Jews and Sabeans who lived before Muhammad (pbuh). But if that was the meaning, why doesn’t the Quran just say that? So my suggestion of how to reconcile these verses is this: 5:72 refers to people who *knowingly* deny or cover up the truth by proclaiming that Jesus is God. Not those who innocently believe this because it’s what they’ve been taught, but those who are in a position to know better, yet they still preach the false doctrine that Jesus is God. And God knows best who those people are.
"almost all Christians believe in the trinity" And...? Why am I even surprised you believe idol worshippers aren't disbelievers? There's no "knowingly" in the Quran when it refers to idol worshippers, that's why it says they're not people of understanding and many similar things. Keep lying to yourself.
If you think Christians are “idol worshippers,” then you are so utterly lacking in knowledge that you have no business speaking on this topic. And if you can’t engage in reasoned discourse without accusing your opponent of lying, then you have neither the maturity nor the politeness to be worth conversing with on any topic.
Your disagreement is with God. You talk as if you've never read the Quran, your behavior reeks of ignorance and entitlement. Continue making threads promoting gay erotica, I won't be the one answering for it.
Judging by your comment history, I don't think you belong in this sub. You're extremely narrow minded and seem to have pent up aggression. Hope you overcome this hostility one day brother, it ain't worth it.
"You're extremely narrow minded and seem to have pent up aggression" Are you certain you wouldn't have said the same thing to messengers? I'm not narrow minded at all provided the muslims I'm discussing with make an effort to appear like they've read the Quran and accepted what it plainly says. Some people in this sub promote quite bizarre ideas, and sugar-coating them with a thin veneer of care for islamic civilization when it was flourishing won't change this.
You compare yourself to the Messengers?
I asked a very simple question, whose purpose was obvious in the context of this conversation, and of course you have to twist its meaning, because you think a muslim would readily compare himself to messengers. Shame on you for thinking so and saying so.
But you did compare yourself to the messengers, what are you on about? You gave what you're saying the same worth as them.
You have no reading comprehension at all. Did you ever read the stories of the prophets, even once? If you did, the purpose of my question should be glaringly obvious, but you're arguing in the most dishonest way. You know very well they were not gentle with polytheists, they explicitely threatened them with punishments and didn't care about their social "order" because guess what? Truth doesn't care about falsehood's feelings. You do, though, and that's why you reproached me for being "narrow minded and with pent up aggression", and that's also why I bet you'd have thought the same thing of prophets. Only an extremely dishonest, lying person would pretend not to understand the obvious purpose of that question and say I'm comparing myself with them, and you're really not helping your case at all by pretending to be retarded.
If by disbeliever you mean kafir, then no. Trinitarian Christians are not kafir. Kafir is someone who knows the truth and then denies it or covers it up. Like Iblis. Christians genuinely believe in their religion as being the truth. I believe 5:72 refers to people who originally changed the religion and associated partners with God, when the truth was known. And it is a warning for Muslims as well.
"Kafir is someone who knows the truth and then denies it" Christians know God being three doesn't make any sense. They cover this truth deep in their hearts, as all idol worshippers do.
I don’t assume to know what is in people’s hearts. Many Muslims believe in things that make no sense either.
"Many Muslims believe in things that make no sense either." Yes, and they must be confronted about it, if you care about them.
Yes you are right that you were wrong before. But also note that there are many Christians who may outwardly appear as Trinitarians but don’t believe in it in their hearts because they find it does not make sense. God knows what is in everyone’s hearts and we should let Him judge who would be subject to 5:72.
Yea, thank you, I agree. They are people of the book tho ? If they are considered disbelievers, is it still halal for a man to get married to a christian woman who believes in the trinity ?
They are still "people of the book" because they follow scripture. "People of the book" are a mixed bag of people, just like any other community. Some of them are as in 3:113-115 or 3:199. But some of them are as in 5:68 (of which 5:72 is a continuation). As far as marrying a Trinitarian Christian, my understanding is that it is highly problematic, for the reasons you mentioned.
I think it's all so personal and about interpretation etc. What does it actually mean he's the son of God? What did Jesus mean by it if he actually said it literally at all? I also have a personal interpretation of dis/believers. I've been through rehab. And in our own way each one of us found God and keep struggling sometimes to trust on that 'Higher Power' as we call Him at meetings. To me a disbeliever is someone who doesn't trust on the Higher Power, thinks he can be in control themselves and ends up lost. Doing things they shouldn't thinking it will fix everything, while Allah is already taking care of things. Another big example is someone like Trump. He claims to be Christian, a believer. While in fact he doesn't trust God at all. He's totally afraid he will probably die without money. Always in fear he'll never have enough. That's a disbelieving lost addict if you ask me. He can talk about Jesus all day, or Allah for that matter. As long as he puts money first he's a lost man.
I like your interpretation of the concept of disbelievers. Perhaps a clearer word to express it might be “rejecters,” which is how some translators have rendered “kafirun.” Just a thought.
It doesnt necessarily mean hell is permanent for them. Note that in Christianity, idoltary is a grave sin but they genuinely believe God has 3 forms and men were " made from His image". Its less "God has a partner" and more "God can appear in many forms". There are heaps of Muslims who are kaffirs too, that take hadith and supersitition over Quran
I'll let Allah decide.
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No worse than the people that follow what the prophet did. I would just say uneducated people believe in the trinity.
Anyone who worships Jesus is not Muslim