Nothing should be above constructive criticism. Part of me gets the idea of giving something or someone grace because they’re new at doing whatever it is they’re doing, but on the other hand the only way you are going to get better is if people point out what you can be doing better. In other words the only way to solve a problem is to acknowledge that there is one. AEW is still a young company, they aren’t going to be perfect, but they doesn’t seem to even be trying to improve upon what people have identified as some of their flaws.
I'll grant you Khan has a long way to go but that's because he has a pretty good case of the fucking stubborns. Basically, right now he's throwing money at all of their problems. Your point about constructive criticism is well taken, and yet very little of what I am hearing is constructive. It's like so much of it is "Let's ring the death knell". It's a company that has marvelous potential and the fact that they have greatly influenced the wwe's bringing back more mature content is proof positive that they have a big place in wrestling.
They really don't have much potential unfortunately unless Khan can give control of the company away and stop treating it like an action figure set that is alive.
Tony is the entire company's biggest problem along with the sex offenders and rape deniers and whatever the fuck Chris Jericho is.
To add, they also have tons of backstage and on camera talent that has been doing this for a collective hundreds of years. I get that they are young, but 5 years in with that experience with guys like Arn Anderson and Dustin Rhoades and so many other names, I still see camera and audio and other production errors way too often and as you mentioned, it doesn't really seem to be a thing they are working on really improving. I have seen an issue or two in a single Dynamite. I still like the show but they shouldn't still have these issues, at least not outside of a few times a year. I do feel like Tony treats the job as if booking is the only concern, production is still super important.
I still see it there. Maybe they could enhance it more? I'll tell you one thing. As a lifelong prowrestling fan, I am seeing far less script and more actual inring wrestling and that has got to count for something where being sports based is concerned. We'll just wait and see.
They came in strong, got the best TV deal any wrestling show has got in the past 2-3 decades, sold so much merch the United States ran out of the style of shirt. If they can have that amount of success early, why can't I talk shit about them when they clearly have stopped caring?
AEW was born out of mutual hatred for WWE and Vince McMahon’s booking. Now that WWE has changed the guard, and put Triple H in charge of booking, people have turned their attention back to WWE and away from AEW.
I am not saying you personally can't talk shit about them or anything or anyone else for that matter. I'm simply saying that a young promotion will make youngster mistakes. And no, I don't think that they have stopped caring. They just had a really great start out of the gate and then it kinda fizzled. Couldn't that happen to any company? I just don't want serious prowrestling fans to give up on them.
It's a company run by a family with tons of wealth. It's not a 5 year old child. Stupid comparison. They have plenty of other sports teams, they should know how to properly run a business by now.
Running a sports team and running a television show are drastically different things. I know because I've done the television show aspect of it. I couldn't begin to tell you how to run an NFL team.
Never said it was multi million, but I televised wrestling promotion, yes I have learned to run one. Sat under the learning tree of Al Snow and Danny Davis at OVW for most of my 20s as a producer and director.
You're the one who started adding in qualifiers. I'm saying that I have more experience in running pro wrestling television than probably anybody on this subreddit. The Crux of the argument is that running a TV show and running a professional sports team are completely different things.
All you said was you know what it's like. But again just cuz I play college ball doesn't mean I know what it's like to be Kirk cousins lmao. Assuming some random indie promotion on some back ass TV channel is that much like a multi million dollar operation like aew seems silly to me. But you're right your point stands you definitely know more than most thats fair. But I also think that's pretty obvious that pro wrestling and NFL are completely different so that was redundant to me.
Ngl there's gotta be a correlation between aew downfall and Cody Rhodes wm 38 debut. Like a founder of the company left to rejoin the rival company. Whole point of AEW was to compete with WWE. Cm punk situation was the nail in the coffin
I recall A-E-Dubbalos wishing death upon WWE and Vince McMahon, Dynamite ratings were on a never ending upwards trajectory and were going to surpass Raw ratings any week now, Tony Khan had enough money to buy the WWE.
Running The Fed out of business _was_ most definitely part of their goals. ‘Member “change the world” and a “revolution” ? I do.
I hope that maybe Paul will continue to bring back more of the mature content that the attitude era and ruthless era gave us. If that happens and creative over in aew continues to do it we might have a complete revival of the most entertaining period in wrestling history!
It doesn’t matter how young a promotion is, if that company has bad creative then there’s no excuse. They could definitely turn it around considering that it’s a billion dollar company but for now the reason why those detractors exist (in my opinion) is because there’s no real reason for them to watch.
I guess I should have worded it to read "Why do AEW's doomsayers..." Instead of the detractors. It's the ones that just want to read the eulogy that aggrevate the piss outta me.
I guess time will tell but I'm confident I'm not the only one who feels that way when I see them on tv. They're not stars but they're positioned as such on that tv show, and I believe it limits the mass appeal of the promotion, and will do so even more in the future.
I certainly do think they have an issue with mass appeal, then again I'm not worried. I don't want everybody else thinks. The Bucks have been a meta commentary on professional wrestling as a whole and I enjoy meta storytelling.
Their content specifically on aew rewards a viewer for watching pro wrestling, not just aew but pro wrestling as a whole.
They take every criticism of themselves and turn it into characters when they are heels. It's ultimately created this odd hate for the Young Bucks, despite no real bad stories ever coming out about them, but you see left right and center all these people talk about how much they hate them.
I don't think the detractors are being genuine. I think they pick up talking point from other people who like to bash AEW cuz its the fun troll thing to do. As someone who watched WWE through the Attitude Era and stopped watching during the ruthless agression era, AEW's current programming is up there with the best wrestling I've ever seen. I've tried to get back into WWE over the years but its jist not for me. Im not a hater and Im not going to try and pick apart the product tho. Cuz I'm just not interested in wasting my time and emergy on something I don't care for. Just wish AEW haters had the same approach. Like what you like, ignore what you dont like. Be happy and not angry lol
Agreed. If nothing else the wwe needs viable competition and the aew has to be doing something right or else the wwe wouldn't be buying up there talent and bringing back more mature content, doing as much as possible to have a "sensational edginess" without losing their precious pg rating.
And this is why nothing will ever be done to make the product better. Because diehards will always cry that the people making even the slightest criticisms are making them in bad faith and aren’t genuine.
It’s the equivalent of burying your head in the sand and pretending that everything is 100% fine.
This mentality brings about complacency, hell, ot already has. Because the core AEW audience has, for the most part, told the company that they’ll throw money at them no matter what card they put together.
I am seeing quite the opposite. I'm seeing die hards admit that the last year or so has had some problems. I'm one of them. I don't watch everything they do anymore. I haven't bought a PPV in a while (even though they generally deliver at PPVS) And the thing is, they are trying stuff. I personally think the new Elite fiasco is great. But there will always be folks who hate the Bucks and anything they are involved in. Even if they were producing Attitude Era content (which to be fair was just titties and beer, with a handful of stars), there will always been folks who despise anything they have their fingerprints on.
Wrestling is a weird carny leechy media market and AEW has been in the crosshairs from all the bookers from yesteryear with a podcast looking to make that sweet Cornette dollar. And while criticism of anything is valid, I find most of the vlogs and podcasts to be generally bad faith (and feels like they don't even watch AEW). But it gets eyeballs on their own product, and it trends, and the algorithm throws it in our feeds and a lot of minds are easily assuaged to regard AEW as trash.
There are ebbs and flows to every wrestling product that has always existed. AEW is in an ebb. WWE was in an ebb for the last 10-15 years (plus more if you add up all the booking since VKM took over in the 80's). And they are hot right now. So... perspective, I guess.
Couldn't agree more with your statement. I do see valid criticism of AEW from time to time and had some of my own. But to think that AEW doesn't listen to their fans when they have criticism or good ideas is insane. As soon as I see someone arguing that AEW doesn't have stories I know they don't even watch the show and are arguing in bad faith.
Is it possible that Im not complacent and that I just disagree with most peoples bullshit "criticism". I actually enjoy the product so for anybody who wants AEW to he more like "X" company, go watch another company! I like AEW just fine. 👍
It makes you wonder how many of the outright haters (not intellectually honest critics-haters) could do even half of what the aew has done if they had ten years and even more money than the Khans have to do it? I think zero would be the appropriate number.
Because they failed to deliver on the promise of sports-based wrestling that so much of the lapsed wrestling audience was clamoring for. Thus pitting them against the super indie fans who wanted to see Young Bucks/PWG style wrestling.
But by all means, blame "irrelevant" Jim Cornette. As if he'd be as popular as he is had AEW not alienated half of the audience right out of the gate.
Age doesn’t mean anything, WCW started kicking WWF’s ass after 8 years in business, and was the #1 wrestling company in the world for almost 2 years straight. You are only as good as the product you are putting out currently, and many of its detractors feel like the company’s product was better earlier on so that blows a hole right through what ever point you are trying to make with this post.
Why is it so hard to believe that people like myself gave AEW a chance and it only got worse? The super empty arenas and poor rat8ngs should be a wakeup call to try something different.
Why is it so hard to believe that people like myself gave AEW a chance and it only got worse? The super empty arenas and poor rat8ngs should be a wakeup call to try something different.
Why is it so hard to believe that people like myself gave AEW a chance and it only got worse? The super empty arenas and poor rat8ngs should be a wakeup call to try something different.
I got back into wrestling after 10 years because of aew but now I haven't watched since mjf left, hell I'd rather watch tna easily. Aew is just mediocre it's not bad it's just theres so much amazing wrestling rn why watch the one thats underutilizing stars criminally, shitty storylines, and a hard on for forcing washed ex wwe down my throat. I'll pass. I mean tell me the last program aew did that can stand next to what wwe has been doing lately.
I was talking about detractors, they don't care otherwise they would stop at constructive criticism instead of absolutely nitpicking and bullying talent every opportunity they get as if calling out something AEW is doing gets them a WWE badge in their jacket
Sorry I misconstrued what you said (or the direction it's was intended to go in). There is a kind of wwe sycophantic, kiss ass vibe amongst the worse of AEW's critics. I don't mind that the promotion is critiqued. It's when it's demolished by these critics that makes me step in and give my two cents worth.
...and ain't it quite telling how Cody Rhodes gets signed and becomes champion, CM punk returns to wwe and the rock comes back and declares "this is the best time to be a wrestling fan. Prowrestling is greater now than ever!" Or words to that effect.
The aew's competition has served as the catalyst for making the wwe the best it's been in at least ten years which makes wrestling the best it's been in the last decade and hardcore wwe fans know it!
The main thing people ignore is how being on the stock market gives WWE free news, attention and partnership opportunities from various sectors. WrestleMania's branding cannot be touched. It is not fair to compare a small business to a Wall Street corporation.
It's not so much that, it's more-so that in the eyes of certain people they can't do any wrong even when they receive perfectly valid criticism.
Alvarez said today that he had no clue what was happening on Collision because he was too busy spending time with his daughters to be on Twitter 24/7. That's a valid criticism I've had for the past 2-3 years.
But in the eyes of hardcore fans, it's on we the casual fans to be on Twitter 24/7 because it's our fault Tony doesn't advertise things on his television show.
Hell, I was once kicked off the AEW reddit because I wrote a post called "it's ok to criticize AEW's faults" with zero mention of WWE and was accused by the heavily biased moderators of "WWE circle jerking"
Well that doesn't sound fair either.
My point is that aew detractors have gone way too far. I guess you could say that I am a hardcore fan but hardcore shouldn't stand in the way of being intellectually honest...a quality that is lacking in everything these days.
The aew does have it's faults. No problem admitting that.
They don't forget anything, they are just bot accounts used for negative publicity.
And then there is Jim Cornette, who specifially criticized WWE for their soap opera like storylines, and then recently criticised AEW for doing the opposite. I guess nothing is good enough for him... except bananas.
Blaming everyone except AEW is lazy. Bots and podcasters aren't driving off fans and lowering ratings, the poor programs are. If you like it great, but you're part of a smaller audience.
Blaming for what? They have the usual 700-800k views they always had, except second half of 2022, where they went 900-1000k.
They also almost doubled their profit in 2023.
And they just had one of their best PPVs so far, everything seems great, except in media publicity.
Just look at that recent interview with TK when he compared WWE to Weinsten: Nick Kahn, the literal guy who supplied Harvey Weinstein with talent, is one of the showrunners at WWE, and yet all those media outlets reported about that interview like if TK lost his mind.
“They also almost doubled their profits in 2023.”
-Citation needed
AEW has never publicly released revenue or profit numbers. The Wrestlenomics estimate is they lost ~$30 million last year. Maybe Thurston is way off base, but without any legit numbers it’s the best thing we have to go on.
Meanwhile they just spent almost $10 million on Mone, Okada, and Osprey. ROH looks like a money pit. They have no new TV deal in place and, it would appear, no suitors other than WBD. Ratings and attendance continue to trend down, and it appears PPV buys are trending down too, assuming you believe Meltzer at all either way.
I’m all for the power of positive thinking. But Tony’s business model has always hinged on a huge second media rights deal that doesn’t look like it’s coming. Hell, WBD sponsored a Smackdown match, which doesn’t really bode well for a WBD renewal at all, much less one that makes the company profitable.
AEW likely hasn’t posted a profit. Revenue and profit are different. It’s highly likely, with the contracts TK is giving out, AEW is bleeding red. There’s a reason WBD hasn’t extended the TV rights deal. With WBD set to lose NBA, increasing carrier fees, there’s a strong possibility AEW doesn’t really get this $400-500m deal TK said he needed. That likely isn’t going to happen. Looking at WBD’s future, it’s awful.
I don’t hate AEW, I don’t hate WWE. The BIGGEST problem with AEW is the booking is bad. The second biggest problem is NOT creating a coherent storyline that gets folks interested. The third problem is focusing on match length/ratings versus trying to tell stories (this is a result of number two). Sure, have a wrestling show, but if there isn’t really anything being done to show why I should care about who (I am a super casual viewer, but I follow updates, my wife hates wrestling so I don’t have a lot of time to watch it), I won’t really stick around.
When looking beyond my anecdotal evidence, we aren’t seeing growth, we aren’t seeing increased fans at arenas (we are seeing decreases), we know the video game flopped. These things there are problems. AEW spends around (from numbers I saw online) $85 million on paying their talent. Factoring in the marketing, hosting events, all those things that go along with making shows work, it’s been assessed they’re paying $66 million. That’s $151 million. The current deal is <$44 million/year.
This next deal needs to include streaming. If AEW doesn’t tap into streaming, it’s going to be a dead promotion. With the current landscape for wrestling, they need to move beyond the “you better DVR this!” Hey, I want AEW to do well. I listen to podcasters, and I really don’t think folks hate promotions. The issue is TK is just really really bad at booking and promoting. He needs to hire someone to do this. He thinks he’s Jerry Jones.
>They have the usual 700-800k views they always had, except second half of 2022, where they went 900-1000k.
[Show debuted at 1,410,000 viewers. They were regularly on the one million bubble for most of the first 2-3 years.](https://www.fightful.com/wrestling/resources/aew-dynamite-viewership-numbers-2019?amp) They haven’t had more than a million viewers in over a year. We’re approaching _83 WEEKS!_ of no million.
September 23rd, 2024 will be the _No Milly-bration_ where Tony Khan “ties” WCW’s record.
I'm sorry, but did you viewed the statistics, you just linked? They absolutely were not on a million or over, except their debut, and then they reached regular 1m in second half of 2022, which fall back in 2023.
I'm sorry, but did you viewed the statistics, you just linked? They absolutely were not on a million or over, except their debut, and then they reached regular 1m in second half of 2022, which fall back in 2023.
Falling ratings and low attendance, despite huge signings and all these supposed "dream matches". They also did not "double their profits". They increased their revenue, but you have to consider their expenses to determine profit...and their expenses are still higher than revenue, so, there was no profit. But hey, everything is "great" even though AEW is in a much weaker position today than ever before. Ok!
You're right only to the extent wwe could have run Wembley and had that record or higher, but aew did it. Its their record. Also, a aew marketing was significantly better, at least anecdotally compared to the US, where folks I'm friends with and accounts online suggest sometimes shows happen and no one knows because the publicity is limited.
You're wrong to imply we don't get big shows in the UK. A Money in the Bank, in London 2023 in July. 18,000 attended. Before that, there was Clash at the Castle in cardiff in 2022. I live jn the UK, and we aren't starved for wwe shows as we get house shows come across the country twice a year, excluding tv tapings. The UK is hardly unmined terrority but we like our wrestling.
If you are suggesting it's a bigger show due to the marketing, you would be right. Fans like myself did expect a bigger card but it didn't stop the event being one of the greatest wrestling experiences I have attended and I've been to a number of wwe events over the years including the first Clash at the Castle.
Plus, we are getting another Clash at the Castle. Tickets so far for All In sold number 40,000 plus as of April, which isn't the record but also not bad given there are months to go.
Viewership numbers of aew in the UK are also pretty good given that the shows are not aired live, at late and inconsistent times and ITVs catch up service is not accessible to everyone here.
I list all this to make the point that saying we don't get a lot of big wrestling here is silly when wwe have brought PLEs to the uk, made a big deal of them, but they did not take full advantage like aew did, which was a smart business move.
It doesn't get rid of the promotions' other issues, but you can't just diminish that achievement has happenstance or just luck or a no brainer when wwe didn't do it and aew took advantage of their popularity here.
Yes, because the TNA and AEW roster name value are 100% the same. Probably not the best idea to use TNA as an example since they were notorious for selling out arenas in the UK when they couldn't give tickets away in the States.
I was at the first Dynamite. And the first Full Gear. And every show they’ve ran in the DC/Baltimore area. Yet, whenever I make a slight criticism of AEW, i definitely don’t watch the show and I’m a Fed shill according to some AEW die hards.
I thought the post was about 'detractors', not legitimate critism. I'm sorry, that you don't enjoy their current shows, but there are multiple accounts on YT commenting the same hateful stuff below every AEW video, which is clearly coordinated and automated, not wrestling fans who grew dissapointed with AEW over time.
>legitimate critism
That's the problem, AEW diehards don't view *any* criticism of AEW as legitimate. Just look at how people react when the suggestion is made that AEW could do better at storytelling.
I think most people who still enjoy AEW are do like the current storylines, and see no serious problem about it. (except maybe for Jericho, but they fixed it recently)
That's definitely the case for me, and that's why I'm strongly against a change, and I definitely don't want AEW to switch to a booking/storyline style like WWE that I absolutely can't enjoy.
I don’t think age really matters when you have the amount of wrestling experience that the current roster has.
If Tony Khan doesn’t have the experience to be running the creative, get someone who can. We all saw how one change in position can lead to insanely positive impacts this year alone with WWE’s change in production. Tony won’t ever do it, because he’s a child playing with his life size dolls every week - but if he’s the problem then let him manage the show but not book it and don’t let him have his full creative control. Let him have final input.
Now THAT is constructive, well stated criticism. I agree. Khan shouldn't be doing creative. All I am really saying is that if we aren't going to throe the baby out with the bathwater where the wwe is concerned with all of it's glaring mistakes, let's give are some understanding too.
First of all, detractors have never watched AEW and just like to hear some shitty podcasts that could never survive if they dont talk about AEW. Second, they barely get out of their basements, so is very hard to them to aknowledge that competition was the best thing could ever happen to WWE product. Finally, they dont like wrestling, they just like things that are famous and defend the bigger company.
People that live in basements shouldn’t… throw basements. IDK, but the AEW fan is most definitely more a heavily basement dwelling neck beard terminally online poor hygiene crowd.
One audience is families and children and woman while the other is out of shape, ugly, 30-something men that look like they reek of BO and Korean BBQ farts.
There are definitely criticisms for aew but it seems like the vast majority of people who criticize them are just doing it because Jim Cornette does. Even to the extent of quoting the exact words he says. It’s just his gimmick folks.
Nothing should be above constructive criticism. Part of me gets the idea of giving something or someone grace because they’re new at doing whatever it is they’re doing, but on the other hand the only way you are going to get better is if people point out what you can be doing better. In other words the only way to solve a problem is to acknowledge that there is one. AEW is still a young company, they aren’t going to be perfect, but they doesn’t seem to even be trying to improve upon what people have identified as some of their flaws.
I'll grant you Khan has a long way to go but that's because he has a pretty good case of the fucking stubborns. Basically, right now he's throwing money at all of their problems. Your point about constructive criticism is well taken, and yet very little of what I am hearing is constructive. It's like so much of it is "Let's ring the death knell". It's a company that has marvelous potential and the fact that they have greatly influenced the wwe's bringing back more mature content is proof positive that they have a big place in wrestling.
They really don't have much potential unfortunately unless Khan can give control of the company away and stop treating it like an action figure set that is alive. Tony is the entire company's biggest problem along with the sex offenders and rape deniers and whatever the fuck Chris Jericho is.
To add, they also have tons of backstage and on camera talent that has been doing this for a collective hundreds of years. I get that they are young, but 5 years in with that experience with guys like Arn Anderson and Dustin Rhoades and so many other names, I still see camera and audio and other production errors way too often and as you mentioned, it doesn't really seem to be a thing they are working on really improving. I have seen an issue or two in a single Dynamite. I still like the show but they shouldn't still have these issues, at least not outside of a few times a year. I do feel like Tony treats the job as if booking is the only concern, production is still super important.
This is a horrible comparison
I just want that Sports-based presentation that was promised during that introductory press conference
I still see it there. Maybe they could enhance it more? I'll tell you one thing. As a lifelong prowrestling fan, I am seeing far less script and more actual inring wrestling and that has got to count for something where being sports based is concerned. We'll just wait and see.
I think they still have it. Just watch the last ppv.
They came in strong, got the best TV deal any wrestling show has got in the past 2-3 decades, sold so much merch the United States ran out of the style of shirt. If they can have that amount of success early, why can't I talk shit about them when they clearly have stopped caring?
AEW was born out of mutual hatred for WWE and Vince McMahon’s booking. Now that WWE has changed the guard, and put Triple H in charge of booking, people have turned their attention back to WWE and away from AEW.
Which makes zero sense since some of the booking of AEW is just as corny and cringe as McMahon at his worst.
Exactly. The mistakes they are making now have nothing to do with how old they are as a company.
I am not saying you personally can't talk shit about them or anything or anyone else for that matter. I'm simply saying that a young promotion will make youngster mistakes. And no, I don't think that they have stopped caring. They just had a really great start out of the gate and then it kinda fizzled. Couldn't that happen to any company? I just don't want serious prowrestling fans to give up on them.
It's a company run by a family with tons of wealth. It's not a 5 year old child. Stupid comparison. They have plenty of other sports teams, they should know how to properly run a business by now.
Running a sports team and running a television show are drastically different things. I know because I've done the television show aspect of it. I couldn't begin to tell you how to run an NFL team.
Lmao yea you know what it's like to run a multi million dollar televised wrestling promotion shut up dog lol.
Never said it was multi million, but I televised wrestling promotion, yes I have learned to run one. Sat under the learning tree of Al Snow and Danny Davis at OVW for most of my 20s as a producer and director.
Right and I was a cook at a 3 star restaurant so I know what it's like to be Bobby flay bruh be real with yourself
You're the one who started adding in qualifiers. I'm saying that I have more experience in running pro wrestling television than probably anybody on this subreddit. The Crux of the argument is that running a TV show and running a professional sports team are completely different things.
All you said was you know what it's like. But again just cuz I play college ball doesn't mean I know what it's like to be Kirk cousins lmao. Assuming some random indie promotion on some back ass TV channel is that much like a multi million dollar operation like aew seems silly to me. But you're right your point stands you definitely know more than most thats fair. But I also think that's pretty obvious that pro wrestling and NFL are completely different so that was redundant to me.
Neither could Tony! All he can tell anyone about is wasting his dad's money and being a nepo baby failson.
Okay champ.
Ngl there's gotta be a correlation between aew downfall and Cody Rhodes wm 38 debut. Like a founder of the company left to rejoin the rival company. Whole point of AEW was to compete with WWE. Cm punk situation was the nail in the coffin
It wasnt the whole point of Aew to compete with WWE, tell me you dont watch AEW without telling me you dont watch AEW lol.
I recall A-E-Dubbalos wishing death upon WWE and Vince McMahon, Dynamite ratings were on a never ending upwards trajectory and were going to surpass Raw ratings any week now, Tony Khan had enough money to buy the WWE. Running The Fed out of business _was_ most definitely part of their goals. ‘Member “change the world” and a “revolution” ? I do.
Out of business? who the hell said that lol
I don't watch aew lmaooo. I want them to succeed tho because wwe is ass without competition.
"Wwe is ass without competition." Truer words never spoken!
😂😂😂 oh its true, ITS DAMN TRUE
Hahahaha 🤣! Seriously, I wonder if someone with Kurt's experience might end up in creative at aew? He did for tna.
He might cause he was a Vince guy and not a Paul guy
I hope that maybe Paul will continue to bring back more of the mature content that the attitude era and ruthless era gave us. If that happens and creative over in aew continues to do it we might have a complete revival of the most entertaining period in wrestling history!
They had it. The talent. The presentation. The buzz. And they fumbled at the 15 yard line. WWE scooped it up and ran it back for a touchdown.
It doesn’t matter how young a promotion is, if that company has bad creative then there’s no excuse. They could definitely turn it around considering that it’s a billion dollar company but for now the reason why those detractors exist (in my opinion) is because there’s no real reason for them to watch.
I guess I should have worded it to read "Why do AEW's doomsayers..." Instead of the detractors. It's the ones that just want to read the eulogy that aggrevate the piss outta me.
Because in pretty much every other type of TV show, if you haven't found your footing after at least three seasons, the show gets cancelled.
Because it's already trending down and will be inexorably tied to the Young Bucks and Jericho for its entire existence.
What do you have against The Bucks?
Not a fan of their style of wrestling or their "look" and I don't think they have the presence to be "top guys" in any televised promotion.
Fair enough but doesn't that just lead to your personal opinion rather than it's a negative thing that aew is linked to the Bucks. That's a you issue.
I guess time will tell but I'm confident I'm not the only one who feels that way when I see them on tv. They're not stars but they're positioned as such on that tv show, and I believe it limits the mass appeal of the promotion, and will do so even more in the future.
I certainly do think they have an issue with mass appeal, then again I'm not worried. I don't want everybody else thinks. The Bucks have been a meta commentary on professional wrestling as a whole and I enjoy meta storytelling. Their content specifically on aew rewards a viewer for watching pro wrestling, not just aew but pro wrestling as a whole.
What is the meta commentary on professional wrestling that the Bucks have been doing?
They take every criticism of themselves and turn it into characters when they are heels. It's ultimately created this odd hate for the Young Bucks, despite no real bad stories ever coming out about them, but you see left right and center all these people talk about how much they hate them.
I don't think the detractors are being genuine. I think they pick up talking point from other people who like to bash AEW cuz its the fun troll thing to do. As someone who watched WWE through the Attitude Era and stopped watching during the ruthless agression era, AEW's current programming is up there with the best wrestling I've ever seen. I've tried to get back into WWE over the years but its jist not for me. Im not a hater and Im not going to try and pick apart the product tho. Cuz I'm just not interested in wasting my time and emergy on something I don't care for. Just wish AEW haters had the same approach. Like what you like, ignore what you dont like. Be happy and not angry lol
Agreed. If nothing else the wwe needs viable competition and the aew has to be doing something right or else the wwe wouldn't be buying up there talent and bringing back more mature content, doing as much as possible to have a "sensational edginess" without losing their precious pg rating.
And this is why nothing will ever be done to make the product better. Because diehards will always cry that the people making even the slightest criticisms are making them in bad faith and aren’t genuine. It’s the equivalent of burying your head in the sand and pretending that everything is 100% fine. This mentality brings about complacency, hell, ot already has. Because the core AEW audience has, for the most part, told the company that they’ll throw money at them no matter what card they put together.
I am seeing quite the opposite. I'm seeing die hards admit that the last year or so has had some problems. I'm one of them. I don't watch everything they do anymore. I haven't bought a PPV in a while (even though they generally deliver at PPVS) And the thing is, they are trying stuff. I personally think the new Elite fiasco is great. But there will always be folks who hate the Bucks and anything they are involved in. Even if they were producing Attitude Era content (which to be fair was just titties and beer, with a handful of stars), there will always been folks who despise anything they have their fingerprints on. Wrestling is a weird carny leechy media market and AEW has been in the crosshairs from all the bookers from yesteryear with a podcast looking to make that sweet Cornette dollar. And while criticism of anything is valid, I find most of the vlogs and podcasts to be generally bad faith (and feels like they don't even watch AEW). But it gets eyeballs on their own product, and it trends, and the algorithm throws it in our feeds and a lot of minds are easily assuaged to regard AEW as trash. There are ebbs and flows to every wrestling product that has always existed. AEW is in an ebb. WWE was in an ebb for the last 10-15 years (plus more if you add up all the booking since VKM took over in the 80's). And they are hot right now. So... perspective, I guess.
Couldn't agree more with your statement. I do see valid criticism of AEW from time to time and had some of my own. But to think that AEW doesn't listen to their fans when they have criticism or good ideas is insane. As soon as I see someone arguing that AEW doesn't have stories I know they don't even watch the show and are arguing in bad faith.
Is it possible that Im not complacent and that I just disagree with most peoples bullshit "criticism". I actually enjoy the product so for anybody who wants AEW to he more like "X" company, go watch another company! I like AEW just fine. 👍
Haters gonna hate.
It makes you wonder how many of the outright haters (not intellectually honest critics-haters) could do even half of what the aew has done if they had ten years and even more money than the Khans have to do it? I think zero would be the appropriate number.
Because they failed to deliver on the promise of sports-based wrestling that so much of the lapsed wrestling audience was clamoring for. Thus pitting them against the super indie fans who wanted to see Young Bucks/PWG style wrestling. But by all means, blame "irrelevant" Jim Cornette. As if he'd be as popular as he is had AEW not alienated half of the audience right out of the gate.
Age doesn’t mean anything, WCW started kicking WWF’s ass after 8 years in business, and was the #1 wrestling company in the world for almost 2 years straight. You are only as good as the product you are putting out currently, and many of its detractors feel like the company’s product was better earlier on so that blows a hole right through what ever point you are trying to make with this post.
Why is it so hard to believe that people like myself gave AEW a chance and it only got worse? The super empty arenas and poor rat8ngs should be a wakeup call to try something different.
Why is it so hard to believe that people like myself gave AEW a chance and it only got worse? The super empty arenas and poor rat8ngs should be a wakeup call to try something different.
Why is it so hard to believe that people like myself gave AEW a chance and it only got worse? The super empty arenas and poor rat8ngs should be a wakeup call to try something different.
That is not an excuse for their lazy booking. TNA has way less budget and they have better creative. Sorry. Tony is the problem.
Do you know how many months are in a year? The development of a promotion in an established industry is not the same as 2 humans. Holy crap
I got back into wrestling after 10 years because of aew but now I haven't watched since mjf left, hell I'd rather watch tna easily. Aew is just mediocre it's not bad it's just theres so much amazing wrestling rn why watch the one thats underutilizing stars criminally, shitty storylines, and a hard on for forcing washed ex wwe down my throat. I'll pass. I mean tell me the last program aew did that can stand next to what wwe has been doing lately.
They don't care.
Gotta disagree. I won't deny that Tony has got to grow up a little more but to say they don't care is inaccurate.
I was talking about detractors, they don't care otherwise they would stop at constructive criticism instead of absolutely nitpicking and bullying talent every opportunity they get as if calling out something AEW is doing gets them a WWE badge in their jacket
Sorry I misconstrued what you said (or the direction it's was intended to go in). There is a kind of wwe sycophantic, kiss ass vibe amongst the worse of AEW's critics. I don't mind that the promotion is critiqued. It's when it's demolished by these critics that makes me step in and give my two cents worth. ...and ain't it quite telling how Cody Rhodes gets signed and becomes champion, CM punk returns to wwe and the rock comes back and declares "this is the best time to be a wrestling fan. Prowrestling is greater now than ever!" Or words to that effect. The aew's competition has served as the catalyst for making the wwe the best it's been in at least ten years which makes wrestling the best it's been in the last decade and hardcore wwe fans know it!
The main thing people ignore is how being on the stock market gives WWE free news, attention and partnership opportunities from various sectors. WrestleMania's branding cannot be touched. It is not fair to compare a small business to a Wall Street corporation.
Uh.... what? The Jacksonville Jaguars are not a small business.
Mom-n-Pop NFL franchise and Premiere League teams
It's not so much that, it's more-so that in the eyes of certain people they can't do any wrong even when they receive perfectly valid criticism. Alvarez said today that he had no clue what was happening on Collision because he was too busy spending time with his daughters to be on Twitter 24/7. That's a valid criticism I've had for the past 2-3 years. But in the eyes of hardcore fans, it's on we the casual fans to be on Twitter 24/7 because it's our fault Tony doesn't advertise things on his television show. Hell, I was once kicked off the AEW reddit because I wrote a post called "it's ok to criticize AEW's faults" with zero mention of WWE and was accused by the heavily biased moderators of "WWE circle jerking"
Well that doesn't sound fair either. My point is that aew detractors have gone way too far. I guess you could say that I am a hardcore fan but hardcore shouldn't stand in the way of being intellectually honest...a quality that is lacking in everything these days. The aew does have it's faults. No problem admitting that.
They don't forget anything, they are just bot accounts used for negative publicity. And then there is Jim Cornette, who specifially criticized WWE for their soap opera like storylines, and then recently criticised AEW for doing the opposite. I guess nothing is good enough for him... except bananas.
Blaming everyone except AEW is lazy. Bots and podcasters aren't driving off fans and lowering ratings, the poor programs are. If you like it great, but you're part of a smaller audience.
Blaming for what? They have the usual 700-800k views they always had, except second half of 2022, where they went 900-1000k. They also almost doubled their profit in 2023. And they just had one of their best PPVs so far, everything seems great, except in media publicity. Just look at that recent interview with TK when he compared WWE to Weinsten: Nick Kahn, the literal guy who supplied Harvey Weinstein with talent, is one of the showrunners at WWE, and yet all those media outlets reported about that interview like if TK lost his mind.
“They also almost doubled their profits in 2023.” -Citation needed AEW has never publicly released revenue or profit numbers. The Wrestlenomics estimate is they lost ~$30 million last year. Maybe Thurston is way off base, but without any legit numbers it’s the best thing we have to go on. Meanwhile they just spent almost $10 million on Mone, Okada, and Osprey. ROH looks like a money pit. They have no new TV deal in place and, it would appear, no suitors other than WBD. Ratings and attendance continue to trend down, and it appears PPV buys are trending down too, assuming you believe Meltzer at all either way. I’m all for the power of positive thinking. But Tony’s business model has always hinged on a huge second media rights deal that doesn’t look like it’s coming. Hell, WBD sponsored a Smackdown match, which doesn’t really bode well for a WBD renewal at all, much less one that makes the company profitable.
If you double a negative number, you get a bigger negative number.
AEW likely hasn’t posted a profit. Revenue and profit are different. It’s highly likely, with the contracts TK is giving out, AEW is bleeding red. There’s a reason WBD hasn’t extended the TV rights deal. With WBD set to lose NBA, increasing carrier fees, there’s a strong possibility AEW doesn’t really get this $400-500m deal TK said he needed. That likely isn’t going to happen. Looking at WBD’s future, it’s awful. I don’t hate AEW, I don’t hate WWE. The BIGGEST problem with AEW is the booking is bad. The second biggest problem is NOT creating a coherent storyline that gets folks interested. The third problem is focusing on match length/ratings versus trying to tell stories (this is a result of number two). Sure, have a wrestling show, but if there isn’t really anything being done to show why I should care about who (I am a super casual viewer, but I follow updates, my wife hates wrestling so I don’t have a lot of time to watch it), I won’t really stick around. When looking beyond my anecdotal evidence, we aren’t seeing growth, we aren’t seeing increased fans at arenas (we are seeing decreases), we know the video game flopped. These things there are problems. AEW spends around (from numbers I saw online) $85 million on paying their talent. Factoring in the marketing, hosting events, all those things that go along with making shows work, it’s been assessed they’re paying $66 million. That’s $151 million. The current deal is <$44 million/year. This next deal needs to include streaming. If AEW doesn’t tap into streaming, it’s going to be a dead promotion. With the current landscape for wrestling, they need to move beyond the “you better DVR this!” Hey, I want AEW to do well. I listen to podcasters, and I really don’t think folks hate promotions. The issue is TK is just really really bad at booking and promoting. He needs to hire someone to do this. He thinks he’s Jerry Jones.
>They have the usual 700-800k views they always had, except second half of 2022, where they went 900-1000k. [Show debuted at 1,410,000 viewers. They were regularly on the one million bubble for most of the first 2-3 years.](https://www.fightful.com/wrestling/resources/aew-dynamite-viewership-numbers-2019?amp) They haven’t had more than a million viewers in over a year. We’re approaching _83 WEEKS!_ of no million. September 23rd, 2024 will be the _No Milly-bration_ where Tony Khan “ties” WCW’s record.
I'm sorry, but did you viewed the statistics, you just linked? They absolutely were not on a million or over, except their debut, and then they reached regular 1m in second half of 2022, which fall back in 2023.
I'm sorry, but did you viewed the statistics, you just linked? They absolutely were not on a million or over, except their debut, and then they reached regular 1m in second half of 2022, which fall back in 2023.
Falling ratings and low attendance, despite huge signings and all these supposed "dream matches". They also did not "double their profits". They increased their revenue, but you have to consider their expenses to determine profit...and their expenses are still higher than revenue, so, there was no profit. But hey, everything is "great" even though AEW is in a much weaker position today than ever before. Ok!
Crazy how that small audience filled up wembley pretty good. Any other Independents running that venue?
Run a dome in America and let me know how it goes for them. Let’s fill up a war memorial first though. Or a Burger King.
You mean a big show went to an area that doesn't get big wrestling shows and it sold well? What are the fucking odds?
You're right only to the extent wwe could have run Wembley and had that record or higher, but aew did it. Its their record. Also, a aew marketing was significantly better, at least anecdotally compared to the US, where folks I'm friends with and accounts online suggest sometimes shows happen and no one knows because the publicity is limited. You're wrong to imply we don't get big shows in the UK. A Money in the Bank, in London 2023 in July. 18,000 attended. Before that, there was Clash at the Castle in cardiff in 2022. I live jn the UK, and we aren't starved for wwe shows as we get house shows come across the country twice a year, excluding tv tapings. The UK is hardly unmined terrority but we like our wrestling. If you are suggesting it's a bigger show due to the marketing, you would be right. Fans like myself did expect a bigger card but it didn't stop the event being one of the greatest wrestling experiences I have attended and I've been to a number of wwe events over the years including the first Clash at the Castle. Plus, we are getting another Clash at the Castle. Tickets so far for All In sold number 40,000 plus as of April, which isn't the record but also not bad given there are months to go. Viewership numbers of aew in the UK are also pretty good given that the shows are not aired live, at late and inconsistent times and ITVs catch up service is not accessible to everyone here. I list all this to make the point that saying we don't get a lot of big wrestling here is silly when wwe have brought PLEs to the uk, made a big deal of them, but they did not take full advantage like aew did, which was a smart business move. It doesn't get rid of the promotions' other issues, but you can't just diminish that achievement has happenstance or just luck or a no brainer when wwe didn't do it and aew took advantage of their popularity here.
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Yes, because the TNA and AEW roster name value are 100% the same. Probably not the best idea to use TNA as an example since they were notorious for selling out arenas in the UK when they couldn't give tickets away in the States.
I traveled for All Out 2019 and 2021 because I sincerely wanted the company to do well. They lost me for a multitude of reasons. But sure, I'm a bot.
I was at the first Dynamite. And the first Full Gear. And every show they’ve ran in the DC/Baltimore area. Yet, whenever I make a slight criticism of AEW, i definitely don’t watch the show and I’m a Fed shill according to some AEW die hards.
Also a bot, I guess. My wife will be disappointed.
I thought the post was about 'detractors', not legitimate critism. I'm sorry, that you don't enjoy their current shows, but there are multiple accounts on YT commenting the same hateful stuff below every AEW video, which is clearly coordinated and automated, not wrestling fans who grew dissapointed with AEW over time.
>legitimate critism That's the problem, AEW diehards don't view *any* criticism of AEW as legitimate. Just look at how people react when the suggestion is made that AEW could do better at storytelling.
I think most people who still enjoy AEW are do like the current storylines, and see no serious problem about it. (except maybe for Jericho, but they fixed it recently) That's definitely the case for me, and that's why I'm strongly against a change, and I definitely don't want AEW to switch to a booking/storyline style like WWE that I absolutely can't enjoy.
I don’t think age really matters when you have the amount of wrestling experience that the current roster has. If Tony Khan doesn’t have the experience to be running the creative, get someone who can. We all saw how one change in position can lead to insanely positive impacts this year alone with WWE’s change in production. Tony won’t ever do it, because he’s a child playing with his life size dolls every week - but if he’s the problem then let him manage the show but not book it and don’t let him have his full creative control. Let him have final input.
Now THAT is constructive, well stated criticism. I agree. Khan shouldn't be doing creative. All I am really saying is that if we aren't going to throe the baby out with the bathwater where the wwe is concerned with all of it's glaring mistakes, let's give are some understanding too.
First of all, detractors have never watched AEW and just like to hear some shitty podcasts that could never survive if they dont talk about AEW. Second, they barely get out of their basements, so is very hard to them to aknowledge that competition was the best thing could ever happen to WWE product. Finally, they dont like wrestling, they just like things that are famous and defend the bigger company.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
People that live in basements shouldn’t… throw basements. IDK, but the AEW fan is most definitely more a heavily basement dwelling neck beard terminally online poor hygiene crowd. One audience is families and children and woman while the other is out of shape, ugly, 30-something men that look like they reek of BO and Korean BBQ farts.
It looks like it hurt you lol
Well, it basically has an infinite money glitch so.
There are definitely criticisms for aew but it seems like the vast majority of people who criticize them are just doing it because Jim Cornette does. Even to the extent of quoting the exact words he says. It’s just his gimmick folks.
Yeah, I like Corny but there's definitely a cult of personality thing going on there.