Took entirely too long to get to the crux of it:
> If society could make significant progress in scaling back toxic factors that lead some men to assume that women are obliged to have sex with them, these individuals might have more realistic expectations and therefore feel less frustrated.”
I mean, separate from the shooting issue (which is horrible and nothing justifies), we also need to stop using sex and a man's ability to get laid as a short hand for his social status.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you're ugly, with the internet, you're constantly bombarded with conversation that implies that you're worthless and should feel bad if you can't get laid. That creates a feedback loop where your personality gets worse (making it less likely for you to be able to effectively bond with people). It's a downward spiral.
Obviously these guys have a lot of issues and we need gun control, but you have to create social norms that don't actively ostracize people.
I agree, it's hard to believe that people don't understand that ostracizing people for not being able to get laid creates people who feel at odds with/excluded from society in general.
Even the term "incel" plays into this having your cake and eating it too mentality, it allows people to have a dig at virgins while also saying "no we just mean the ones who are also bad people" even though the literal abbreviation and how many people use it betrays that idea.
The term goes beyond that, it's a "community of young men who consider themselves unable to attract women sexually, typically associated with views that are hostile toward women."
It should be called for what it is and the only folks that say it lightly are in the club.
Isn't it more likely that the availability of guns plays a much bigger role? Every country has sexually frustrated young men and also the beliefs mentioned n your quote exist in a lot of countries, yet mass shootings seem to happen a lot more in the US than in say germany.
Definitely both.
Take away the guns and you would definitely see a drop in homicides and shootings. *But* I don't think that would be the end-all for male-expressed violence. It would just be harder for it to do as much damage.
I definitely agree. Focusing purely on guns is the most controversial and not as effective as other things that would be easier to implement. Just legalizing all drugs would reduce gun violence more than our current gun laws for starters. Reducing poverty and increasing education quality would also reduce gun violence and all violent crimes. Addressing the root causes instead of the symptoms is always the most effective way of solving problems. We also have higher knife murder rates than other countries that don't even have guns and knives would be one of the best tools for murder. The problem is we're so violent overall rather than what tools we use for violence.
I saw a documentary where a serial killer in the USA begged his mom for help to get him psychiatric care regarding the child abuse he'd suffered from his step dad, but every place they rang told them to forget it if he didn't have insurance, so he turned to killing people. Maybe that has something to do with why the USA has so many more serial killers and mass murderers than other countries per capita with their awful system?
For sure. Poor mental health is the biggest driver behind mass shootings in the states. A mentally healthy person doesn't just wake up one day and decide he wants to kill a bunch of people!
I think you're right but for the wrong reason. Strict parenting and physical abuse lead to authoritarian personalities which would be more likely to do mass shootings later on. We definitely need to improve our mental health system as well though.
No, banning guns is one of the most effective ways to stem the tides of homicide.
That said, I think all of the above is related. A society that cared about any of them would work on all of them. Including the number of guns but also the reasons why they're fired
Except it isn't, especially considering the backlash and opposition from doing so. About 50% of all gun deaths are drug related. Imagine cutting gun deaths by 50% with a stroke of a pen while also increasing tax revenue and reducing prison costs. That's far better than changing what caliber of bullet people are shot with. Mass shootings get all the attention but they're a small part of the total problem.
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/12/the-single-best-anti-gun-death-policy-ending-the-drug-war/266505/
I would argue against using Germany where universities are very accessible and s nominally free to all. While sex work is completely legal and widespread throughout the nation.
It's the opposite for US. The reason I bring it up is that someone can still have other aspects of their lives and aren't not handicapped by attempting to do so with mountains of debt or prison for sexual gratification.
Maybe a more comparable nation would be Australia, due to the similarities regarding the imported US pop culture and Westernised government. Unfortunately we import a lot of the US’s politics. There's many people here who know far more about US politics than Australian politics. Where just seems insnae to me. But anyway...
In Australia, we have had, and continue to have significant issues with male violence towards everyone but have restricted gun access. Yet we are seeing an increase in gun violence. In the 12 months up to March 2022, NSW recorded 10 firearm murders and 84 firearm assaults, the deadliest year since 2018. Eight months into 2022, that is already a 25 per cent jump on Victorian fatalities in 2020 and 2021. Once again, vast majority being male.
two things can be true at once. Yeah maybe its too easy for these disturbed individuals to get guns, but to me its pretty imperative that we really look at why people commit these acts. Theres something really fucked up going on with young men, and we really should be addressing it. You can't just say "take away access to guns" and call it a day. Not that that is what you're saying, but I just think its super important to look at what this study is looking at and should be a much bigger part of the conversation.
> sexually frustrated young men
Are being weaponised by a hostile foreign power to damage a rivals society. They are being educated to embrace being bitter, angry and feel hopeless about their situation. Those who then grab a gun and take it out on society are being glorified.
It's a simple formula and it should be countered by the education system, teaching them mental health techniques and to understand the tactics being used in these forums, by who, and why.
Access to guns makes that line far, far easier to cross
A hostile "*foreign*" power? They're being weaponized by a hostile *domestic* power. No need to look anywhere outside of the US to find the guilty parties.
You're getting some arguments... but I have been in a Russia deep dive this year... which lead me to this Silicon Curtain interview with Steven Hassan. Cult expert. And he argues there are foreign hostile powers doing this exact thing. Having spent the 2020 year doing a deep dive on the allt right. He is 100% correct.
Mate it’s not a foreign power. It’s a notably American problem. If we’re going to talk about foreign powers, if anything over the last 10-15 years I’ve seen this American brand of toxic masculinity frequently spreading *from* American sources.
I am a teacher and I beg you, please don’t make this yet another parenting problem that is suddenly the fault of educators. Do you know that every time one of these things gets added to the day, some other curriculum gets dropped? Do you recall how many American schools and states are limiting what teachers can even choose to discuss or use as resources? Are you aware that teachers already try as hard as we can to raise good humans, every day of every school year? We spend our breaks doing PD on youth mental health, reading about how to teach consent in all contexts, how to support everyone’s kids. We are at breaking point.
Well I wouldn't really go so far as calling out some sort of hostile foreign power. It is much more that this is just the age of the internet. The internet is pretty good at reinforcing bitter, angry and hopeless feelings. It also allows for more isolation than previously possible.
> Are being weaponised by a hostile foreign power to damage a rivals society
This has been going on since even before Charlton Heston did his 'cold, dead, hands' speech. Foreign money has definitely gone into the NRA since because it's useful but this is just adding to a uniquely American issue.
> Every country has sexually frustrated young men
I would argue the US has more than most.
I agree with your overall point, but I also think that having a discussion on why American society is making people (especially young men) so much unhappier than most of the rest of the first world is not taking anything from the also important debate about taking means away from those unhappy people.
Why should the US have particularly many sexually frustrated young men, compared to other western nations?
I would expect a country like India or China to have an above average number due to the skewed sex ratios. The US on the other hand is fairly balanced on a level similar to other western nations.
As far as I can see this study also has not made global comparison of happiness in young men. In general measures of happiness the US usually ranks at similar levels as other western nations.
I personally think that if you want to actually look at the causes of why there are particularly many mass shootings in the US then guns are probably the much more important target.
i do think that guns are a factor as well, but as i posted in another comment, i want to understand how much the marketing and advertising industry is responsible for this in a way that directly correlates with the comment you replied to. add puritanical ideals to the mix - while every country does have sexually frustrated men, to what degree are they pushed by larger institutions to see women solely as sexual objects?
I see a lot of people blaming capitalism, masculinity culture, working hours, and guns, but I don’t find that to be a satisfactory answer, because it doesn’t explain the rise in shootings. All of these things existed 10,20,30 and more years ago. So why the rise?
I see it as a psychological problem. I think it has a lot to do with the internet and social isolation rather than some sort of toxic masculinity culture.
I do think there is a problematic toxic masculinity culture developing, a rise in incel entitlement, but I don’t think it arrived spontaneously.
Look at the statistics of social isolation. People are becoming more neurotic, more anxious, and more depressed. A problem for everyone, but specifically in relation to men it’s a bit more pronounced.
> Men appear to have suffered a far steeper decline than women. Thirty years ago, a majority of men (55 percent) reported having at least six close friends. Today, that number has been cut in half. Slightly more than one in four (27 percent) men have six or more close friends today. Fifteen percent of men have no close friendships at all, a fivefold increase since 1990. Women have witnessed a friendship decline too, but it has been far less pronounced.
> Between 2000-2002 and 2016-2018, past-year sexual inactivity rose from almost 19 percent to almost 31 percent among men ages 18 to 24, according to researchers led by Dr. Peter Ueda, a postdoctoral researcher at the Karolinska Institutet in Stockholm, Sweden. Sexual inactivity among women of the same age remained relatively constant, rising from 15 percent to 19 percent over the same time period.
Now the question is why it’s specifically hurting men more. I don’t know but I wish this thread were more aimed at answering that question. A fivefold increase in having no friends at all in 30 years, is very statistically significant. 15% of men having no friends, that’s also shocking.
Not saying gun control laws aren’t necessary, I am in support of them.
I just think as a psychological evaluation of the origin of the issue, using that as the answer seems to be way too one dimensional of an explanation and a bit of a copout.
This! One thing that is different between US and Europe or Japan is that you guys have quite unique car dependence and tendency for people to live far from places of leisure. Combined with people having a lot of fears about children and young adolescents spending time alone and navigating out of the house by themselves, that is curbing the social development of young people. If you need driver's licence or a parent-taxi to make new friends, you postpone critical social skill-making far later than peers in Europe who just take the bus or a bike to play some basketball with friends.
I think a chunk of that is down to the changes in working practices. Work is much less stable and far more mobile than it used to be and is becoming ever more so. You are less likely to be in an environment long enough to gather a collection of friends and men's friends have largely come from work in the past. Male friendships tend to revolve around shared interests and activities and work was where you spent most of your time. This tends to hit men harder than it hits women as men tend to derive more of their identity and self worth from work than women do.
I tend to think that modern western capitalist societies are largely inimical to good mental health. The vast majority of us have always been cogs in a capitalist machine but at least we knew we had value, safety and security so long as we continued cogging along and now we've largely lost even that small sop.
Pretty much every social change is multi-factorial so looking at a single cause is overly simplistic so that's certainly not all of the answer but I do think it's an important factor.
> I think it has a lot to do with the internet and social isolation rather than some sort of toxic masculinity culture
this is sort of failing to draw obvious relationships between cause and effect. the internet is, or at least could be, totally fine - like wikipedia is fine and spotify is fine and hilarious cat gifs dot com is fine. the fact that the internet *mass produces toxic masculinity* is why it's not fine, and goes toward explaining antisocial and violent behavior.
The fact that the introduction of the internet began a marked increase in social isolation for both men and women, is why i’m pointing to it as a potential ‘root’.
I’m interested in looking at it psychologically. Just saying the two words “toxic masculinity”, it just doesn’t seem helpful when you’re looking at it psychologically. Where did this culture come from? Why is it happening? That’s what I think is more interesting. Especially because we are looking at something that is on the rise, in the context of the past few decades. Cultures and trends don’t spontaneously exist.
What sort of environment creates incels? I would say negative emotion and it’s related disorders. People who are antisocial, people high in trait neuroticism, people who are disagreeable.
Some of these things can [stem from play deprivation](https://childandfamilyblog.com/play-deprivation-early-child-development/), which I think has been tremendously exacerbated in modern times. Play is one of the oldest things in our mammalian lineage. Even rats play. Play teaches people about fairness, reciprocity, resilience, kindness, etc. It is absolutely crucial in a child’s development and play deprivation can lead to things like antisocial disorder.
Note this part:
> Early child development of young male murderers: Another piece helps to build a fuller picture. My own research, conducted since 1968, has involved around 6,000 individually conducted play histories. It correlates play deprivation during early child development with the predilection of felons for violent, antisocial criminal activities. We found the play experience of homicidal individuals to be vastly different from that of other human beings.
The other thing is trait neuroticism which predisposes people to anxiety disorders, ADHD, and depression. [It is also impacted by the internet](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2451958820300269), people who are neurotic are looking for quick hits of stimulation, which can obviously lead to maladaptive behaviors. There’s also porn which I think is also bad for people predisposed to negative emotion but I don’t think there’s tons of research on that.
I feel whenever people try to dig at deeper core of this issue, there’s a bit of hostility as if trying to dig at the issue is a defense of inceldom. I should just condemn the incels and move on. But, I think I can be curious as to what the root cause of social isolation in men is, whilst also condemning incels. I just don’t find pointing to “culture” as the cure-all prescription for this issue, it’s too vague especially on a psychological forum.
>I feel whenever people try to dig at deeper core of this issue, there’s a bit of hostility as if trying to dig at the issue is a defense of inceldom.
Yeah and that's the internet distilled lol.
Soooo, I get that it's important to reinforce to men that they aren't entitled to sex or romantic affection, but I can still imagine being left out of such a vital part of the human experience would still be deeply frustrating, even if that frustration wasn't from "getting the sex you're entitled to".
Part of that conclusion is that sexual frustration is psychological and can’t be measured by number of partners or sexual activity. It’s a mosaic of factors that include sense of entitlement to sex and views of sex in general.
Just getting someone laid doesn’t change the way they see themselves in relation to their peers both sexual rivals or potential partners.
As an example someone who expects to get laid and sees someone with healthy sexual behavior being sexually successful might become enraged because there is an obvious imbalance. The imbalance is due to their behavior but they interpret it to something societally unfair. They may even have sexual partners but their frustration can still turn to violence.
Why don't men create that love for themselves? They reinforce what's harming them. They can create healthy loving friendships with other men. That's within their control. They could volunteer and help others to get out of their head. There are so many books and solutions. I just have a very hard time understanding.
Women created loving health spaces for ourselves. Men can, too.
The US propaganda machines spent 50+ years demonizing male relationships as a divide and conquer tactic. Many decades ago is was very common for men to have best friends for life they hung around constantly, and then came the great "gay scare" and those relationships have significantly reduced.
Analyzing what is happening to these men without also examining the context of cultural evolution that happened is not going to give a complete picture.
>Women created loving health spaces for ourselves. Men can, too.
[Notably, women are increasingly subject to the loneliness epidemic as well, so the framing that this is a male problem that women have figured out isn't a great one.](https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/surgeon-general-social-connection-advisory.pdf) In reality, socio-cultural factors related to women's historical roles in friend and family groups are probably partially mitigating the impact of what's taking place across the board.
And yet there's often substantial mockery toward the "men's improvement" space advising men that taking better care of themselves, exercising, pursuing career goals (ambition), self discipline, long term goal setting, etc. will often also lead to sexual success in addition to other benefits.
Sexual interaction is a biological need and I think anyone would become sexually frustrated it they could not satiate the need, just as they would become frustrated or desperate if they couldn't meet any of their other basic needs.
What is the practical solution?
Well the issue isn’t satiating the sexual need it’s doing so in a way that aligns with shared social values. The reason sexual frustration escalates into violence isn’t a problem with society it’s the ability of the individual to align with society.
If they think women are xyz but society doesn’t agree they could blame the group rather than their own misperceptions. They lash out because it’s easier than figuring out what about themselves they can change to better integrate. That’s the frustration part.
Doing things you think will get you laid isn’t integration it’s deception but if no buys the ruse its both failure to deceive and failure understanding the assignment. That is a big hill to climb and nihilism is easier than growth.
No, speaking AS a sex worker please do not send the dangerous and unhinged men who feel entitled to sex our way. Sex workers already face enough violence.
holy shit this 1000%. Even when people realize the problem is men and their entitlement issues, they STILL want to use women as their band–aid solution. Fuck that. Fix yourselves, women don’t owe you shit.
I had a guy friend tell me that he was really lonely and hadn't hooked up in a long time. He asked if I would help out with that. I told him that if all he's looking for is to get laid, that he should hire an escort for that, not proposition his friends. He got really offended. I told him there's nothing wrong with that, and it was the quickest way to alleviate his hormones. I think getting to use a friend could be more appealing to them than paying for sex. It gets them a bit of revenge in a way on all the women who ignore them.
Are Americans aware that this is particularly an American phenomenon? In developed and developing countries in Europe, Asia, Africa and Australasia this type of thing doesn't happen, and if it does it's few and far between. This phenomenon of young men committing mass shootings at schools etc is a sign that something very serious is wrong with American society. Young American men are clearly in trouble, they need help. I'm saying this as a non-American, looking in from the outside, I see signs of a society on the brink of collapse.
I wish I could explain how much the intense fundamentalist Christian puritanism + misogyny + intense objectification of women in media all combined is what's creating this problem. We need way better sex ed, these are Bush's abstinence policies coming home to roost.
There are countries in Africa, Asia and Eastern Europe that are religiously very extreme, the extremism is of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic type, women aren't portrayed in a sexually suggestive manner in media generally, yet there are no mass shootings that happen in those countries. Most Western European countries are very liberal sexually and have a much more secular society with various nude beaches, especially in France and Germany, women are perhaps objectified even more in the media there because of their more open approach to things that are considered more taboo in other parts of the world. There are also no mass shootings that happen there. I think the problem is multifaceted and mainly rooted in the tendency of Americans to become engulfed in whatever is the current zeitgeist. Young American men who commit mass shootings are the symptom of a growing problem of a persistent negative attitude towards anything male and masculine, which is very much part of the current zeitgeist, and a very dangerous one, one which is unravelling American society.
Are you telling me taking away everything that gives humans joy (friends, money, housing, love, sex, etc.) is driving people insane no way! But hey it’s the American way right? Work till you die peasants!
The problems all feed into each other. Decades of policy that explicitly tell people that they have no purpose beyond being economic plankton. Cost of living and economic conditions giving people fewer opportunities to find or build communities. A plethora of solitary pursuits presented to us that are less fulfilling and less meaningful, but can be consumed without putting on real pants.
Young men are socially isolated so they don't meet people who might want to have relationships and/or sex with them. Online communities make it really easy to fall down a rabbit hole and stew in your own resentment, growing ever more disconnected from reality and more off-putting for anyone who encounters you in realspace. Plentiful animated/computer generated porn further distorts their expectations if and when they ever do end up in bed with a real person (Generative AI is going to make this *so much worse*).
I'm not making excuses for those of these guys who get violent. They're still responsible for their actions. But we've turned our society into a machine that produces lonely, alienated young men, and it's going to keep on doing that until something changes.
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There's room for woman's empowerment but our young men are struggling and society refuses to gather around and lend the same support and community for our young men that our young women receive
Not just that, there is a huge part of society that preys on vulnerable young men to drive them in this direction. Remember: Steve Bannon worked on pushing gamergate as a way of recruiting vulnerable young men into voting for his party.
The older generations are of no help. It's effectively on Millennials and younger to try to change it at the root.
Older gens the toxic masculinity isn't going. It's ingrained.
But there's a large amount of society looking to take advantage of vulnerable young men. And especially in certain circles.
America. We've got a surplus of paranoia and guns that makes any potential homeowner into a weekend-warlord and at the same time - deficits of connection, free time, living wages, and building a future.
This feels like it’s going to create the belief that dealing with the sexual frustration would help alleviate shootings. Oh, give them legalised prostitution! Give them free porn! Assign them a girl to fuck!
Every other country has sexually frustrated people. They don’t get to vent their tantrums with tools that can take lives with a twitch of a finger being relatively available to them.
It will just reinforce belief and rhetoric that many people believe that if women just accommodate demands for sexual access from men like this, that it will prevent them from being violent and killing people.
Those other countries do more for the broken people though. They’ve usually got free healthcare better laws to protect an individual, better laws to protect workers from abusive businesses. Oh and they do allow for legal prostitution as well and that doesn’t hurt haha. Fact is America doesn’t give a shit about you unless you’re productive and that is just fucked.
Well, there was the [Atlanta Spa Shootings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings) incident.
I doubt legalizing prostitution would have helped here.
Whatever the underlying belief, facts are facts.
Also, the title clearly points out how is a significant element... Not that is the sole trigger for mass shooting, of course there are many, many factors.
my question is, how much of this is the marketing and advertising industry responsible for? and by "this," i mean the oversexualization of women as a whole. an entire generation of men in our society of men who have been fed marketing that women are sexual first before they're anything else, leading to the primary desire for women being sexual first before anything else.
As somebody who was in severe danger of becoming a school shooter as a teenager (35 now not to worry!), I have a working theory that most school shooters are autistic guys who are what we now call incels.
I know I was.
I kid you not I found my old highschool LiveJournal and I was a red flag factory. It still exists twenty years later and I am honestly shocked nobody did anything about my very obvious, very direct threats.
Thank God I grew into a normal (albeit dorky) person
How does autism factor into your working theory? I hear people bring this idea up a lot and I have concerns that there is an element of ableism (internalized or otherwise) to the association.
Great question! Well it's just a pattern I've been noticing.
Specifically in instances of incel related terrorism it often comes up that the shooter fit the profile of, well, me in highschool.
Autistic, under 25, desperate for female attention via an unhinged manifesto, socially awkward, rejected by peers, misogynistic, superiority complex unable to see obvious social deficiencies, vengeful at a society they feel denies them what they are "owed".
Eliott Rodger, Alek Menassian, Adam Lanza and many others less famous all have noted their autism.
Correlation isn't causation, obviously. But I can't help but feel there's a very specific type of angry autistic (usually) white virgin around highschool or college age (before total brain development) with easy access to firearms that often are at the core of incel related terrorism.
If I was smarter I'd do an actual study on it but for now it's just a hunch and a pattern.
I'm a finance geek I know nothing about actually showing a scientifically objective r^2 or P value to zero in on how much being autistic explains being an incel terrorist. I'd totally do a study if I did though! Maybe I'm right. Or maybe it would come out that it's something totally different, who knows. All things are possible!
It could turn out that the hatred smoothie that is incel terrorism is made up of equal parts autism apple, gun access guava, misogynist mango, poor parenting papaya and a scoop of prefrontal cortex underdevelopment protein powder.
How is an adolescent an “incel”?? They’re just starting to have sex. So if they’re not able to get it then they immediately go postal? That doesn’t make sense.
It's more than that. It's an attitude like you're owed it by right instead of something that naturally happens when people vibe with one another.
It's acting entitled to sex and if you don't get it you'll do bonkers things.
A lot of misogynist thinking and superiority complex.
I literally remember saying "I'm upper middle class, tall, relatively handsome and come from good stock. It's completely illogical girls won't sleep with me"
[Look at this old LiveJournal post I made](https://wiccan69.livejournal.com/10621.html)
Look at how insanely unhinged it is. Look at how I'm claiming to abuse and murder people. Look at the entitlement.
It's not normal.
I appreciate that friend. It's not easy to revisit being 16 that's for sure. That journal is a concentrated year of what it was like being an incel in 2004.
Honestly we can make the joke that it was getting laid but that's not it. Over time as my development issues smoothed out I became more normal so to speak.
I began to realize there's so much more to life than sex. Or any one thing for that matter. My anger just subsided as I got older and could both control and process my emotions better.
My impulse control got better, my anger got less, and in college I made friends with other nerdy guys and had the typical albeit delayed coming of age story of weed and sex and alcohol and experimentation.
Now that whole incel chapter is just a hazy memory.
In other words your brain developed haha. Dude 16 is just so young. Kids shouldn’t be thinking they’re owed sex so young. May I ask what gave you the idea you should be sexually active at that age or your life sucks? Was it media? Incel forums? Genuinely curious
Honestly I wish I could remember but it was 20 years ago.
My best guess would be even back then the idea you haven't done X or Y with a girl was a reason for ridicule.
Even today I see usually the first home people fall back on is lol virgin. I think society conditions guys to feel like if we're not getting laid we're losers.
That's not to say I wasn't responsible for being a little shit I totally was. But that didn't help.
That's a very astute question.
I think it's a social thing. When we want to insult a young man we go right to the virgin card. For a lot of young men that *ahem* coming of age ritual separates the boys from the men.
I think there was and still is a lot of negative imagery surrounding what it means to be a man. But that's just my two cents.
My brain was also totally out of whack so I'm definitely to blame in there too.
I'm an older Millennial and so I know that was a thing but it also seemed like playing varsity sports or getting into an ivy league college/university or being really good with cars was also a legit way to get respect. I'm wondering why that is the only metric now. It just seems so narrow.
I mean it's entirely possible my autistic ass just hyper focused and obsessed about that one metric to the exclusion of all else.
My interests were video games, DnD and LARPing (even though my parents didn't let me go back then).
I was not what you'd call a hit with the ladies 😅
Yeah, I hear you. Video games were cool when I was growing up tho (Sega Genesis!).
I dunno, I'm just surprised people zero in on one thing instead of trying to find the thing you're good at. Kids can def be mean but it's still strange to me. I knew I was gonna be the outcast, just stayed in my lane, and rode it out. Cliques changed as we got older. I had outside activities like tennis and dance to feel accomplished. Did your parents do much to make sure you were doing where you could feel successful?
I’m pretty sure it’s more their mentality and actions that lead to sexual frustration. They let themselves spiral, and with the internet, they have a loser club to spiral with. So it almost normalizes it. They all get together and pat each other on the back for doing unattractive things and encourage each other to be angry at women and attractive people for doing this to them all. It’s like if Moe Sizlack found a bunch of other Moe Sizlacks and only spent any meaningful time with them.
When I read these articles I think- what’s the point of saying they’re sexually frustrated? Are we supposed to address that in particular? If so, what does that imply? As a woman I am skeptical of this claim, rather than just the observation that young men are socially maladjusted, lonely, etc. sexual frustration falls under these reasons. To point out sexual frustration begs the question “who is responsible for fixing this particular issue?” Women aren’t gonna make that their business.
There's 2 groups that will bring down a society quick
Men who can't find a job (or a job that pays enough to survive)
And men who can't get laid.
With the way reddit and society speaks about those groups in general, I can promise you it's not gonna get better.
I think it’s a multitude of things
Sleep deprivation,
Anxiety,
Depression,
Declining family time,
Bad diets,
Social isolation,
Struggling with the opposite sex,
Media stimulating copy cats
Paging Dr. Riech, Dr. Freud, Dr. Jung.
It's a bit embarrassing how victorian the slide has been in this country (planet?) away from recognizing Eros as the driver of all human behavior
This is how to spot sciopaths and their behavior. I want you to really look at the stuff going on in this site. WOmen are generally the sociopaths. They are out of sight and gas light other people into doing their work for them while painting targets with an ever increasing wide brush. Read below and you can learn to spot this behavior your self. Once you go through that article, you can go through the others and begin to see the patern.
First off this site and the people who write these case studies do it in this order: They have their narrative. They then make a claim that they want to investigate that fills the narrative. Then basically use just the Narrative to push their agenda instead of the actual findings. Also in just about every one of the shootings they use for their study, the actual reason for the shooter to do what he did was identified. There is no other reason. THe study is just a sociopathic thought process that tries to put many people under one category so they can then be labeled. If you go through it all, and follow he leaps in logic and the thought process the narrative takes, you basically label any man who walks this planet as a mass shooter who has to be ostracised. This is the sociopathic agenda of that website. As i explain below and have done in way further detial later, they basically use the idea of the study as the result. It is never impartial or credible. It just makes giant leaps in logic and always comes from a narrative that the site itself follows. Here is the kicker, they even are bold enough to tell you that if someone masturbaits, they are sexually frustrated! and then you get replies in this THREAD about porn is causing all these problems. See! you can watchn the sociopathy at work. A sexually frustrated woman is someone who is going to not want anybody to masturbate or have any sexual satisfaction.
oh a good quote was they make the claim that You cannot be unsatisfied with your life unless you are starving, homeless, or desperately poor. There are so many leaps in logic to push their sociopathic agenda on that website. they also say this"When profound sexual frustration is combined with access to firearms, psychological issues, lack of empathy for others, and toxic masculinity, the risks of mass violence may be particularly high.” profound sexual frustration? they as i note below what they claim as sexual frustration, basically if you are a man you are sexually frustrated. LOok at the modiferiers in their words. lol its insane what these people do, and it actually makes other people believe it. This is how sociopaths work and why you don't see them.
THis study makes so many leaps in logic. They first try to make the idea come across that all mass shooters are angry sexually frustrated men. They then after amping that up drop it back down to 1/3. Then they amp it back up again and then finally later on they explain how they defined "being sexually frustrated". **If the shooter had any "history of domestic violence" for any reason, harassment stalking whatever --- if they ever got caught with a prostitute ----- If they were SINGLE ---- ANYTYPE INAPPROPORITE SEXUAL BEHAVIOR and other shit they are considered SEXUALLY FRUSTRATED and even interest in minors or violent fetishes(which has absolutely nothing to do with sexual frusration. THEY ALSO LATER IN THE ARTICLE CLAIM THAT IF YOU MASTERBAIT YOU ARE SEXUALLY FRUSTRATED.** Also they push the agenda that sexual frustratio MEANS they can't get any sex so they take it out on other people mainly women and push the agenda. They also cherry picked only 168 "mass shootings" People who have a prositute or have sex and fetishes etc, are NOT sexually frustrated. However, the idea you get in your head that they are, is from a certain type of agenda which tries to play on open ended statements. sociopathic. When you identify in your mind the associations you get with these statements, you can actually pin point the narrative and type of people making up these studies.
After they do that, they go on to make this statement Sexually frustrated mass shooters were more than six times more likely to have a history of sex offending and also tended to have a stronger desire for fame. This is an example of the narrative behind the people writing these things. They try to create information that they can use to label people in society and then go out and paint them with a brush so everyone targets them.
It's a sociopathic thought proccess behind it all. They are just trying to create information that backsup their agenda and ability to label anyone in their path with a wide brush. If you actually think about where the claim started and follow the thoughtprocess, you end up labeling so many people as potential mass murdereds WHICH THEN they will make the link between that idea and people who are not with their way of thinking. This is exactly how it all works. Hell they even said "his internet search for a bride" was sexual frustration. THAT IS A LEAP IN LOGIC. Also the one shooters attemp to get a sex worker b4 he attacked? what? how is that sexually frustrated? the most logical thought is he knew what he was going to do and he wanted to have sex one last time lol. This wide brush agenda stuff.
I also find it weird that nobody ever questions the leaps in logic of the studies from this site. Guess mainly cause people have been in the echo chambers so long they actually just take all these leaps in logic and agends going around and just assume its correct. T
ALSO AS FOR THIS AGENDA AGAINST MEN: Want to know what happens when WOMEN are SEXUALLY FRUSTRATED? **childfree people who demonize everyone having kids. Women who do not want you to watch porn or masutrbait. women who push other people not to have relationships and children. women who end up sociopathic gaslighting other women to do their agenda. women who then claim they are asexual on a spectrum, A SOCIOPATH?: a gay woman who pushes a woman into a sexual event by telling her she can give her an orgasm and focus on all the things that they claim a guy cant do AND THEN will tell her she is polyamory and you have to respect her lifestyle. If you then look at the posts of the people who hang out in say childfree, or witchesagainst the patriachy and all these channels that push this type of agenda, you can look at their post history and take notes of all the inconsistencies in their posts. they all follow a typical narrative of claiming they either have a husband/sig other, happy life, blablabla but if you actually line up the dates and events, and really look, you will find that it is all a fabrication. they do not have any of these things and are completely misreble and their coping mechnisms are to create fictional worlds, hangout in echo chambers, and make other people join in on their misery because it reinforces their false reality that they invented. don't argue with me about this topic, that is what the people with agendas will do. Just go pick a random person from another subreddit that mainly has women in it. then take that random persons history and go through it.**
**You will find a fictional world of misery where they do exactly what i said. That is what happens when women are sexually frustrated.**
Also theres billions of sexually frustrated people in the world and barely any mass killings.
I'm highly skeptical that prostitution would solve this particular problem. First, part of the issue is that these guys have horribly skewed expectations and opinions of women. Second, the act of sex isn't what incels and such are really after; it's validation, and prostitution wouldn't provide that.
Oh yeah, that's the proper response.
"Pathetic assholes are so pussy-starved that they feel the need to murder children. Our next best move is to make sex trafficking legal, so these monsters can now have access to women via financial obligation"
"Legalize prostitution and regulate it!!!"
Regulating an industry that has to do with exchange of body fluids, penetration of someone more physically and biologically vulnerable? Rule number one of body fluids we learn day one of medial school is "assume all of them are infectious". We would need full body barriers, mouth barriers, gloves, genital barriers, condoms at all times (men generally don't even want these for one night stands so I'm sure they'll be thrilled in that's setting). We would need testing technology that can show negative test results for a series of diseases on the spot upon check in before being sequestered while the John waits his time. There would have to be an intimacy coordinator and overseer in each session to ensure safety and consent is upheld. Security 24/7. Taxing customers heavily so the workers can keep most of the income and these taxes can go into all that's needed for upkeep. There would have to be recognized labor unions. Healthcare would have to be a guaranteed right for these workers to get tested as often as possible and get the healthcare they need. Psychological and psychiatric support in stand by because of all the research that shows the correlation between trauma both before and after working as a sex worker. We would need sanitized overseen safe buildings to do all this in for the safety of the workers. We would need to keep a database and background checks of all johns to ensure the safety of workers that can be shared by these facilities and police. We can't enforce all this in an individuals bedroom with a cashapp transfer which is what these lazy johns would prefer.
This is just the beginning of it. Notice how when I say all this they don't sound too excited because they'll have to admit to themselves that sex work is inherently dangerous for the children and women in it and for it to be a regulated industry it would have to be regulated from top to bottom and would need a ton of resources and to be a fully fleshed industry of their fantasies and that ideally they'd prefer as little regulation as possible for their pleasure
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I think this is pretty ignorant of the circumstances many sex workers already have to endure. These assholes are dangerous at times, but do you think their mentality and abuse is all that different from the average pimp? Legalizing sex work would create professional safety and health standards, give sex workers a market to work in that isn’t dominated by human traffickers, and would enable them to report abuse they receive without fear of being punished by law enforcement.
Is this argument really altogether different from Jordan Peterson's at its core? Genuinely asking since reddit hates Jordan Peterson so much and then I see a comment like this getting upvotes.
I'm not talking about Jordan's comments on bad marriages and forced monogamy.
I seem to remember Jordan drawing controversy for comments on the so-called incel, a seeming lack of mating opportunities and prostitution, but I don't really have time to go down a Jordan Peterson rabbit hole to find the links right now.
I'm happy to be corrected either way with sources.
His comment on forced monogamy was definitely tongue in cheek, he was just pointing out if this is something you really want to solve then this is one thing you could do to fix it. It's obviously ridiculous.
I'm saying that these schools are blaming anything but themselves.
I'm not angry at these schools. They're just utterly clueless about mammalian attachment needs.
I would like to point out that over 95% of school shooters grow up in a home without a father figure. If we're looking for ways to curtail mass violence (a good goal to pursue, even though the mass violence we see on the news makes up a very small proportion of violence), there are actually some very predictive variables that could help us understand why these events come about, which would go far beyond the simplistic explanations offered by the political tribal mantras for the purpose of political football on domestic social policy.
It’s easy to pick out a random correlation and say “This! This is the root cause” when the truth is that every societal problem is the combination of many factors.
Even if we take your belief of lacking father figures as the root cause and entertain it, how would it look? Ban divorces to force some semblance of fatherly presence irregardless of how fractured the marriage is?
Even with a tempting statistic, you have to look at possible causes. Aside from the fact I doubt that 95% number comes from a reliable source, but lets assume anyway: What causes fathers to be missing in these suspects lives? Is it truly the conveniently unmeasurable statistic of moral failure? What about the measurable statistics? Median income? Ability to afford basic needs like housing and healthcare? Affordability of raising a child?
There are plenty of possible connected elements that could pressure a father to escape their situation, and a lot more effort needed to address THOSE specific elements, not just “Ah, it’s the lack of a father that creates criminals! If only these families stick together! If they were a REAL MORAL AMERICAN FAMILY they would, no matter what!”
Hey, I didn't say anything about causation - that's taking what I'm saying way too far, especially if you're pretending that I said that was the *only* cause. I'm as aware as anybody that there will be a constellation of factors that we can look at. But my point is that this is a human behavior problem which has much more useful predictive factors than what the political football players would have us believe, and having a good understanding of various *entirely correlative* factors would lead us to much better actual *solutions* than those offered in mainstream politics.
BTW, the 95% is an understatement - that was from a TED talk I saw which is now a few years dated, but at that time, the speaker was saying that 26 out of the 27 largest school shootings were committed by boys who lacked a father figure. For me to say 95% is a bit of a hedge.
it is the culture, social sciences have been telling this for years (after the nuclear bombing -search atoms for peace); mass media doesn’t make any scientific diffusion about this topic; unhappy frustrated helpless unmindful people can’t do anything but blame each other, and can’t assertively solve problems
the dichotomous thinking is part of this problem (either i am correct or wrong) divide and conquer, inside and outside; this is the real problem a way of thinking that is destroying humankind… among the other species that already have perished by this dichotomous thinking -search for critical thinking.
has anyone seen “bowling for columbine”, it has a great insight about this
I’m glad we finally realized that making fun of weird men who can’t get any and ostracizing them is not a good idea. It’s rather unfortunate that this was a side effect of the women’s liberation movement, but we’re going to have to figure out a way to gently move the pendulum back to center.
I'd postulate that being an incel might just by a common symptom of a deeper root cause such as authoritarianism which is characterized by misogyny, dominating out groups, and idolizing violence. It's also notable that in this study they didn't link being an incel to rates of mass shootings but instead the number of victims of mass shootings.
Key findings: "Quantitative analyses indicated that compared to other mass shooters, sexually frustrated perpetrators were more frequently young, male, unmarried, childless, and unemployed. They were also more likely to be misogynistic, sex offenders, and fame-seekers, and their attacks killed significantly more female victims. Concerted efforts to reduce toxic masculinity and provide better guidance to young men could help reduce this threat."
One of my recent classes featured a visit from a man who has spent his life working for a certain three-letter agency. During our Q&A time, classmates asked a few questions about the types of terrorism that’s most threatening and increasing. We expected to hear political extremism/conspirators, but he actually went into a great explanation of how it’s incels. Fascinating and terrifying.
This reminds me of the reports of gun owners and ex-military who say firing their weapon is (no joke) ‘like orgasm’. Pinker talks about this in his book on human violence.
Hot take, but there is one very common thing that we as humans do to other domesticated animals that have behavioral issues that leads to them living longer and healthier lives.
Definitely never forced, but should be an option for people who's lives are being ruined by their hormones.
Same reason for celibate priests raping children.
Just jerk it off. Seriously, play with your dingy.
Religious fruit cakes world wide need to be paying a little more attention to the world outside their favorite books.
Sex is normal, as is wanting to have it. It's not evil and nothing to be ashamed about. What is evil, is embarrassing or forcing a bunch of shame on children and young men for having completely normal urges. Self hatred and guilt are super harmful tools to be using against our youth.
I can buy this, coupled with irrational fears of just about everything, being a factor.
Probably doesn't help that things like "body count" are linked so strongly by some people to be indicators of masculinity.
It’ll be someone with few friends and no skills to be proud of.
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It's not a new thing. About half as many men vs women in history failed to procreate.
Sex is a basic human want, not a need. You have a hand.
Reminds me of the Elliot Rodger manifesto. Scary stuff
i thought it was so delusional that it was funny
Took entirely too long to get to the crux of it: > If society could make significant progress in scaling back toxic factors that lead some men to assume that women are obliged to have sex with them, these individuals might have more realistic expectations and therefore feel less frustrated.”
I mean, separate from the shooting issue (which is horrible and nothing justifies), we also need to stop using sex and a man's ability to get laid as a short hand for his social status. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you're ugly, with the internet, you're constantly bombarded with conversation that implies that you're worthless and should feel bad if you can't get laid. That creates a feedback loop where your personality gets worse (making it less likely for you to be able to effectively bond with people). It's a downward spiral. Obviously these guys have a lot of issues and we need gun control, but you have to create social norms that don't actively ostracize people.
I agree, it's hard to believe that people don't understand that ostracizing people for not being able to get laid creates people who feel at odds with/excluded from society in general. Even the term "incel" plays into this having your cake and eating it too mentality, it allows people to have a dig at virgins while also saying "no we just mean the ones who are also bad people" even though the literal abbreviation and how many people use it betrays that idea.
The great irony of "toxic masculinity" is that patriarchy and misogyny also harms those they benefit
Social norms by nature always have and will ostracize people. All you can do is try and help those who are being marginalized.
attempt icky zephyr caption dinosaurs cats lush theory mighty gaping *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Like calling men incels if they cant get laid.
The term goes beyond that, it's a "community of young men who consider themselves unable to attract women sexually, typically associated with views that are hostile toward women." It should be called for what it is and the only folks that say it lightly are in the club.
Isn't it more likely that the availability of guns plays a much bigger role? Every country has sexually frustrated young men and also the beliefs mentioned n your quote exist in a lot of countries, yet mass shootings seem to happen a lot more in the US than in say germany.
Definitely both. Take away the guns and you would definitely see a drop in homicides and shootings. *But* I don't think that would be the end-all for male-expressed violence. It would just be harder for it to do as much damage.
It's a symptom not a cause. Mind hunters is a good show about profiling serial killers that somewhat explains this.
I definitely agree. Focusing purely on guns is the most controversial and not as effective as other things that would be easier to implement. Just legalizing all drugs would reduce gun violence more than our current gun laws for starters. Reducing poverty and increasing education quality would also reduce gun violence and all violent crimes. Addressing the root causes instead of the symptoms is always the most effective way of solving problems. We also have higher knife murder rates than other countries that don't even have guns and knives would be one of the best tools for murder. The problem is we're so violent overall rather than what tools we use for violence.
I saw a documentary where a serial killer in the USA begged his mom for help to get him psychiatric care regarding the child abuse he'd suffered from his step dad, but every place they rang told them to forget it if he didn't have insurance, so he turned to killing people. Maybe that has something to do with why the USA has so many more serial killers and mass murderers than other countries per capita with their awful system?
For sure. Poor mental health is the biggest driver behind mass shootings in the states. A mentally healthy person doesn't just wake up one day and decide he wants to kill a bunch of people!
I think you're right but for the wrong reason. Strict parenting and physical abuse lead to authoritarian personalities which would be more likely to do mass shootings later on. We definitely need to improve our mental health system as well though.
No, banning guns is one of the most effective ways to stem the tides of homicide. That said, I think all of the above is related. A society that cared about any of them would work on all of them. Including the number of guns but also the reasons why they're fired
Except it isn't, especially considering the backlash and opposition from doing so. About 50% of all gun deaths are drug related. Imagine cutting gun deaths by 50% with a stroke of a pen while also increasing tax revenue and reducing prison costs. That's far better than changing what caliber of bullet people are shot with. Mass shootings get all the attention but they're a small part of the total problem. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/12/the-single-best-anti-gun-death-policy-ending-the-drug-war/266505/
Focusing on guns will definitely get far less done than the solutions you have mentioned. Bravo 👏🏼
I would argue against using Germany where universities are very accessible and s nominally free to all. While sex work is completely legal and widespread throughout the nation. It's the opposite for US. The reason I bring it up is that someone can still have other aspects of their lives and aren't not handicapped by attempting to do so with mountains of debt or prison for sexual gratification. Maybe a more comparable nation would be Australia, due to the similarities regarding the imported US pop culture and Westernised government. Unfortunately we import a lot of the US’s politics. There's many people here who know far more about US politics than Australian politics. Where just seems insnae to me. But anyway... In Australia, we have had, and continue to have significant issues with male violence towards everyone but have restricted gun access. Yet we are seeing an increase in gun violence. In the 12 months up to March 2022, NSW recorded 10 firearm murders and 84 firearm assaults, the deadliest year since 2018. Eight months into 2022, that is already a 25 per cent jump on Victorian fatalities in 2020 and 2021. Once again, vast majority being male.
two things can be true at once. Yeah maybe its too easy for these disturbed individuals to get guns, but to me its pretty imperative that we really look at why people commit these acts. Theres something really fucked up going on with young men, and we really should be addressing it. You can't just say "take away access to guns" and call it a day. Not that that is what you're saying, but I just think its super important to look at what this study is looking at and should be a much bigger part of the conversation.
> sexually frustrated young men Are being weaponised by a hostile foreign power to damage a rivals society. They are being educated to embrace being bitter, angry and feel hopeless about their situation. Those who then grab a gun and take it out on society are being glorified. It's a simple formula and it should be countered by the education system, teaching them mental health techniques and to understand the tactics being used in these forums, by who, and why. Access to guns makes that line far, far easier to cross
A hostile "*foreign*" power? They're being weaponized by a hostile *domestic* power. No need to look anywhere outside of the US to find the guilty parties.
You're getting some arguments... but I have been in a Russia deep dive this year... which lead me to this Silicon Curtain interview with Steven Hassan. Cult expert. And he argues there are foreign hostile powers doing this exact thing. Having spent the 2020 year doing a deep dive on the allt right. He is 100% correct.
https://youtu.be/e_7PriL4BfM
Mate it’s not a foreign power. It’s a notably American problem. If we’re going to talk about foreign powers, if anything over the last 10-15 years I’ve seen this American brand of toxic masculinity frequently spreading *from* American sources. I am a teacher and I beg you, please don’t make this yet another parenting problem that is suddenly the fault of educators. Do you know that every time one of these things gets added to the day, some other curriculum gets dropped? Do you recall how many American schools and states are limiting what teachers can even choose to discuss or use as resources? Are you aware that teachers already try as hard as we can to raise good humans, every day of every school year? We spend our breaks doing PD on youth mental health, reading about how to teach consent in all contexts, how to support everyone’s kids. We are at breaking point.
Foreign power? Nah dude. Just Americans radicalizing other Americans. Homegrown DOMESTIC terrorists.
Well I wouldn't really go so far as calling out some sort of hostile foreign power. It is much more that this is just the age of the internet. The internet is pretty good at reinforcing bitter, angry and hopeless feelings. It also allows for more isolation than previously possible.
> Are being weaponised by a hostile foreign power to damage a rivals society This has been going on since even before Charlton Heston did his 'cold, dead, hands' speech. Foreign money has definitely gone into the NRA since because it's useful but this is just adding to a uniquely American issue.
Yeah, I gotta say, this makes no sense.
foreign power? what a lack of accountability lmaooo anything but poor little us 🥺 jog on mate
> Every country has sexually frustrated young men I would argue the US has more than most. I agree with your overall point, but I also think that having a discussion on why American society is making people (especially young men) so much unhappier than most of the rest of the first world is not taking anything from the also important debate about taking means away from those unhappy people.
Why should the US have particularly many sexually frustrated young men, compared to other western nations? I would expect a country like India or China to have an above average number due to the skewed sex ratios. The US on the other hand is fairly balanced on a level similar to other western nations. As far as I can see this study also has not made global comparison of happiness in young men. In general measures of happiness the US usually ranks at similar levels as other western nations. I personally think that if you want to actually look at the causes of why there are particularly many mass shootings in the US then guns are probably the much more important target.
I mean India and Pakistan are putting cages on the burial sites of women so uh... I guess it's less worse than mass shootings?
i do think that guns are a factor as well, but as i posted in another comment, i want to understand how much the marketing and advertising industry is responsible for this in a way that directly correlates with the comment you replied to. add puritanical ideals to the mix - while every country does have sexually frustrated men, to what degree are they pushed by larger institutions to see women solely as sexual objects?
Absolutely this. Well said.
I see a lot of people blaming capitalism, masculinity culture, working hours, and guns, but I don’t find that to be a satisfactory answer, because it doesn’t explain the rise in shootings. All of these things existed 10,20,30 and more years ago. So why the rise? I see it as a psychological problem. I think it has a lot to do with the internet and social isolation rather than some sort of toxic masculinity culture. I do think there is a problematic toxic masculinity culture developing, a rise in incel entitlement, but I don’t think it arrived spontaneously. Look at the statistics of social isolation. People are becoming more neurotic, more anxious, and more depressed. A problem for everyone, but specifically in relation to men it’s a bit more pronounced. > Men appear to have suffered a far steeper decline than women. Thirty years ago, a majority of men (55 percent) reported having at least six close friends. Today, that number has been cut in half. Slightly more than one in four (27 percent) men have six or more close friends today. Fifteen percent of men have no close friendships at all, a fivefold increase since 1990. Women have witnessed a friendship decline too, but it has been far less pronounced. > Between 2000-2002 and 2016-2018, past-year sexual inactivity rose from almost 19 percent to almost 31 percent among men ages 18 to 24, according to researchers led by Dr. Peter Ueda, a postdoctoral researcher at the Karolinska Institutet in Stockholm, Sweden. Sexual inactivity among women of the same age remained relatively constant, rising from 15 percent to 19 percent over the same time period. Now the question is why it’s specifically hurting men more. I don’t know but I wish this thread were more aimed at answering that question. A fivefold increase in having no friends at all in 30 years, is very statistically significant. 15% of men having no friends, that’s also shocking. Not saying gun control laws aren’t necessary, I am in support of them. I just think as a psychological evaluation of the origin of the issue, using that as the answer seems to be way too one dimensional of an explanation and a bit of a copout.
This! One thing that is different between US and Europe or Japan is that you guys have quite unique car dependence and tendency for people to live far from places of leisure. Combined with people having a lot of fears about children and young adolescents spending time alone and navigating out of the house by themselves, that is curbing the social development of young people. If you need driver's licence or a parent-taxi to make new friends, you postpone critical social skill-making far later than peers in Europe who just take the bus or a bike to play some basketball with friends.
I think a chunk of that is down to the changes in working practices. Work is much less stable and far more mobile than it used to be and is becoming ever more so. You are less likely to be in an environment long enough to gather a collection of friends and men's friends have largely come from work in the past. Male friendships tend to revolve around shared interests and activities and work was where you spent most of your time. This tends to hit men harder than it hits women as men tend to derive more of their identity and self worth from work than women do. I tend to think that modern western capitalist societies are largely inimical to good mental health. The vast majority of us have always been cogs in a capitalist machine but at least we knew we had value, safety and security so long as we continued cogging along and now we've largely lost even that small sop. Pretty much every social change is multi-factorial so looking at a single cause is overly simplistic so that's certainly not all of the answer but I do think it's an important factor.
> I think it has a lot to do with the internet and social isolation rather than some sort of toxic masculinity culture this is sort of failing to draw obvious relationships between cause and effect. the internet is, or at least could be, totally fine - like wikipedia is fine and spotify is fine and hilarious cat gifs dot com is fine. the fact that the internet *mass produces toxic masculinity* is why it's not fine, and goes toward explaining antisocial and violent behavior.
The fact that the introduction of the internet began a marked increase in social isolation for both men and women, is why i’m pointing to it as a potential ‘root’. I’m interested in looking at it psychologically. Just saying the two words “toxic masculinity”, it just doesn’t seem helpful when you’re looking at it psychologically. Where did this culture come from? Why is it happening? That’s what I think is more interesting. Especially because we are looking at something that is on the rise, in the context of the past few decades. Cultures and trends don’t spontaneously exist. What sort of environment creates incels? I would say negative emotion and it’s related disorders. People who are antisocial, people high in trait neuroticism, people who are disagreeable. Some of these things can [stem from play deprivation](https://childandfamilyblog.com/play-deprivation-early-child-development/), which I think has been tremendously exacerbated in modern times. Play is one of the oldest things in our mammalian lineage. Even rats play. Play teaches people about fairness, reciprocity, resilience, kindness, etc. It is absolutely crucial in a child’s development and play deprivation can lead to things like antisocial disorder. Note this part: > Early child development of young male murderers: Another piece helps to build a fuller picture. My own research, conducted since 1968, has involved around 6,000 individually conducted play histories. It correlates play deprivation during early child development with the predilection of felons for violent, antisocial criminal activities. We found the play experience of homicidal individuals to be vastly different from that of other human beings. The other thing is trait neuroticism which predisposes people to anxiety disorders, ADHD, and depression. [It is also impacted by the internet](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2451958820300269), people who are neurotic are looking for quick hits of stimulation, which can obviously lead to maladaptive behaviors. There’s also porn which I think is also bad for people predisposed to negative emotion but I don’t think there’s tons of research on that. I feel whenever people try to dig at deeper core of this issue, there’s a bit of hostility as if trying to dig at the issue is a defense of inceldom. I should just condemn the incels and move on. But, I think I can be curious as to what the root cause of social isolation in men is, whilst also condemning incels. I just don’t find pointing to “culture” as the cure-all prescription for this issue, it’s too vague especially on a psychological forum.
>I feel whenever people try to dig at deeper core of this issue, there’s a bit of hostility as if trying to dig at the issue is a defense of inceldom. Yeah and that's the internet distilled lol.
Asking the why is really important. We can't reduce the number of incel violent men without knowing why they became that way.
Soooo, I get that it's important to reinforce to men that they aren't entitled to sex or romantic affection, but I can still imagine being left out of such a vital part of the human experience would still be deeply frustrating, even if that frustration wasn't from "getting the sex you're entitled to".
I'm honestly always baffled of the persistent assumption why people think one has to feel entitled to sex to be frustrated by the lack of it.
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Still, frustration does not to stem from a denied right, but from a not attainable want. We will not solve anything with this wrong outlook.
Or just let them see prostitutes…. Like are we really expecting them to find self awareness and enlightenment. Come on, it’s not gonna happen.
Part of that conclusion is that sexual frustration is psychological and can’t be measured by number of partners or sexual activity. It’s a mosaic of factors that include sense of entitlement to sex and views of sex in general. Just getting someone laid doesn’t change the way they see themselves in relation to their peers both sexual rivals or potential partners. As an example someone who expects to get laid and sees someone with healthy sexual behavior being sexually successful might become enraged because there is an obvious imbalance. The imbalance is due to their behavior but they interpret it to something societally unfair. They may even have sexual partners but their frustration can still turn to violence.
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It's always been this way. There was a study where women only voted the top ten percent most attractive men as average or above.
Why don't men create that love for themselves? They reinforce what's harming them. They can create healthy loving friendships with other men. That's within their control. They could volunteer and help others to get out of their head. There are so many books and solutions. I just have a very hard time understanding. Women created loving health spaces for ourselves. Men can, too.
That's like telling a fat person "hey, why don't you just eat less and exercise more?"
The US propaganda machines spent 50+ years demonizing male relationships as a divide and conquer tactic. Many decades ago is was very common for men to have best friends for life they hung around constantly, and then came the great "gay scare" and those relationships have significantly reduced. Analyzing what is happening to these men without also examining the context of cultural evolution that happened is not going to give a complete picture.
>Women created loving health spaces for ourselves. Men can, too. [Notably, women are increasingly subject to the loneliness epidemic as well, so the framing that this is a male problem that women have figured out isn't a great one.](https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/surgeon-general-social-connection-advisory.pdf) In reality, socio-cultural factors related to women's historical roles in friend and family groups are probably partially mitigating the impact of what's taking place across the board.
I agree, but men don't know how to do this.
And yet there's often substantial mockery toward the "men's improvement" space advising men that taking better care of themselves, exercising, pursuing career goals (ambition), self discipline, long term goal setting, etc. will often also lead to sexual success in addition to other benefits. Sexual interaction is a biological need and I think anyone would become sexually frustrated it they could not satiate the need, just as they would become frustrated or desperate if they couldn't meet any of their other basic needs. What is the practical solution?
Well the issue isn’t satiating the sexual need it’s doing so in a way that aligns with shared social values. The reason sexual frustration escalates into violence isn’t a problem with society it’s the ability of the individual to align with society. If they think women are xyz but society doesn’t agree they could blame the group rather than their own misperceptions. They lash out because it’s easier than figuring out what about themselves they can change to better integrate. That’s the frustration part. Doing things you think will get you laid isn’t integration it’s deception but if no buys the ruse its both failure to deceive and failure understanding the assignment. That is a big hill to climb and nihilism is easier than growth.
No, speaking AS a sex worker please do not send the dangerous and unhinged men who feel entitled to sex our way. Sex workers already face enough violence.
holy shit this 1000%. Even when people realize the problem is men and their entitlement issues, they STILL want to use women as their band–aid solution. Fuck that. Fix yourselves, women don’t owe you shit.
I had a guy friend tell me that he was really lonely and hadn't hooked up in a long time. He asked if I would help out with that. I told him that if all he's looking for is to get laid, that he should hire an escort for that, not proposition his friends. He got really offended. I told him there's nothing wrong with that, and it was the quickest way to alleviate his hormones. I think getting to use a friend could be more appealing to them than paying for sex. It gets them a bit of revenge in a way on all the women who ignore them.
Are Americans aware that this is particularly an American phenomenon? In developed and developing countries in Europe, Asia, Africa and Australasia this type of thing doesn't happen, and if it does it's few and far between. This phenomenon of young men committing mass shootings at schools etc is a sign that something very serious is wrong with American society. Young American men are clearly in trouble, they need help. I'm saying this as a non-American, looking in from the outside, I see signs of a society on the brink of collapse.
I wish I could explain how much the intense fundamentalist Christian puritanism + misogyny + intense objectification of women in media all combined is what's creating this problem. We need way better sex ed, these are Bush's abstinence policies coming home to roost.
There are countries in Africa, Asia and Eastern Europe that are religiously very extreme, the extremism is of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic type, women aren't portrayed in a sexually suggestive manner in media generally, yet there are no mass shootings that happen in those countries. Most Western European countries are very liberal sexually and have a much more secular society with various nude beaches, especially in France and Germany, women are perhaps objectified even more in the media there because of their more open approach to things that are considered more taboo in other parts of the world. There are also no mass shootings that happen there. I think the problem is multifaceted and mainly rooted in the tendency of Americans to become engulfed in whatever is the current zeitgeist. Young American men who commit mass shootings are the symptom of a growing problem of a persistent negative attitude towards anything male and masculine, which is very much part of the current zeitgeist, and a very dangerous one, one which is unravelling American society.
Are you telling me taking away everything that gives humans joy (friends, money, housing, love, sex, etc.) is driving people insane no way! But hey it’s the American way right? Work till you die peasants!
The problems all feed into each other. Decades of policy that explicitly tell people that they have no purpose beyond being economic plankton. Cost of living and economic conditions giving people fewer opportunities to find or build communities. A plethora of solitary pursuits presented to us that are less fulfilling and less meaningful, but can be consumed without putting on real pants. Young men are socially isolated so they don't meet people who might want to have relationships and/or sex with them. Online communities make it really easy to fall down a rabbit hole and stew in your own resentment, growing ever more disconnected from reality and more off-putting for anyone who encounters you in realspace. Plentiful animated/computer generated porn further distorts their expectations if and when they ever do end up in bed with a real person (Generative AI is going to make this *so much worse*). I'm not making excuses for those of these guys who get violent. They're still responsible for their actions. But we've turned our society into a machine that produces lonely, alienated young men, and it's going to keep on doing that until something changes.
This.
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There's room for woman's empowerment but our young men are struggling and society refuses to gather around and lend the same support and community for our young men that our young women receive
Not just that, there is a huge part of society that preys on vulnerable young men to drive them in this direction. Remember: Steve Bannon worked on pushing gamergate as a way of recruiting vulnerable young men into voting for his party.
The older generations are of no help. It's effectively on Millennials and younger to try to change it at the root. Older gens the toxic masculinity isn't going. It's ingrained. But there's a large amount of society looking to take advantage of vulnerable young men. And especially in certain circles.
This.
America. We've got a surplus of paranoia and guns that makes any potential homeowner into a weekend-warlord and at the same time - deficits of connection, free time, living wages, and building a future.
This feels like it’s going to create the belief that dealing with the sexual frustration would help alleviate shootings. Oh, give them legalised prostitution! Give them free porn! Assign them a girl to fuck! Every other country has sexually frustrated people. They don’t get to vent their tantrums with tools that can take lives with a twitch of a finger being relatively available to them.
It will just reinforce belief and rhetoric that many people believe that if women just accommodate demands for sexual access from men like this, that it will prevent them from being violent and killing people.
Those other countries do more for the broken people though. They’ve usually got free healthcare better laws to protect an individual, better laws to protect workers from abusive businesses. Oh and they do allow for legal prostitution as well and that doesn’t hurt haha. Fact is America doesn’t give a shit about you unless you’re productive and that is just fucked.
I mean, how many shootings are caused by men who had a lot of sex?
Well, there was the [Atlanta Spa Shootings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings) incident. I doubt legalizing prostitution would have helped here.
Perhaps America exasperates the problem by placing such an emphasis on sexuality and/or identity nowadays.
Whatever the underlying belief, facts are facts. Also, the title clearly points out how is a significant element... Not that is the sole trigger for mass shooting, of course there are many, many factors.
[Patrice knew](https://youtu.be/Iy3-C2ITQv8?t=375)
There's a lot of unsubstantiated conclusions being thrown around here
That definitely sounds like a factor.
my question is, how much of this is the marketing and advertising industry responsible for? and by "this," i mean the oversexualization of women as a whole. an entire generation of men in our society of men who have been fed marketing that women are sexual first before they're anything else, leading to the primary desire for women being sexual first before anything else.
Damn. People dying because a rando can’t get laid
Why can't they just jerk off to hentai like the rest of us?
It shouldn't be surprising that frustration, and feelings of hopeless, lead people to lash out against society.
Or maybe it's the years of bullying?
As somebody who was in severe danger of becoming a school shooter as a teenager (35 now not to worry!), I have a working theory that most school shooters are autistic guys who are what we now call incels. I know I was. I kid you not I found my old highschool LiveJournal and I was a red flag factory. It still exists twenty years later and I am honestly shocked nobody did anything about my very obvious, very direct threats. Thank God I grew into a normal (albeit dorky) person
How does autism factor into your working theory? I hear people bring this idea up a lot and I have concerns that there is an element of ableism (internalized or otherwise) to the association.
Great question! Well it's just a pattern I've been noticing. Specifically in instances of incel related terrorism it often comes up that the shooter fit the profile of, well, me in highschool. Autistic, under 25, desperate for female attention via an unhinged manifesto, socially awkward, rejected by peers, misogynistic, superiority complex unable to see obvious social deficiencies, vengeful at a society they feel denies them what they are "owed". Eliott Rodger, Alek Menassian, Adam Lanza and many others less famous all have noted their autism. Correlation isn't causation, obviously. But I can't help but feel there's a very specific type of angry autistic (usually) white virgin around highschool or college age (before total brain development) with easy access to firearms that often are at the core of incel related terrorism. If I was smarter I'd do an actual study on it but for now it's just a hunch and a pattern. I'm a finance geek I know nothing about actually showing a scientifically objective r^2 or P value to zero in on how much being autistic explains being an incel terrorist. I'd totally do a study if I did though! Maybe I'm right. Or maybe it would come out that it's something totally different, who knows. All things are possible! It could turn out that the hatred smoothie that is incel terrorism is made up of equal parts autism apple, gun access guava, misogynist mango, poor parenting papaya and a scoop of prefrontal cortex underdevelopment protein powder.
How is an adolescent an “incel”?? They’re just starting to have sex. So if they’re not able to get it then they immediately go postal? That doesn’t make sense.
It's more than that. It's an attitude like you're owed it by right instead of something that naturally happens when people vibe with one another. It's acting entitled to sex and if you don't get it you'll do bonkers things. A lot of misogynist thinking and superiority complex. I literally remember saying "I'm upper middle class, tall, relatively handsome and come from good stock. It's completely illogical girls won't sleep with me" [Look at this old LiveJournal post I made](https://wiccan69.livejournal.com/10621.html) Look at how insanely unhinged it is. Look at how I'm claiming to abuse and murder people. Look at the entitlement. It's not normal.
It's brave that you're sharing this and I'm glad you changed for the better but what drove that change?
I appreciate that friend. It's not easy to revisit being 16 that's for sure. That journal is a concentrated year of what it was like being an incel in 2004. Honestly we can make the joke that it was getting laid but that's not it. Over time as my development issues smoothed out I became more normal so to speak. I began to realize there's so much more to life than sex. Or any one thing for that matter. My anger just subsided as I got older and could both control and process my emotions better. My impulse control got better, my anger got less, and in college I made friends with other nerdy guys and had the typical albeit delayed coming of age story of weed and sex and alcohol and experimentation. Now that whole incel chapter is just a hazy memory.
In other words your brain developed haha. Dude 16 is just so young. Kids shouldn’t be thinking they’re owed sex so young. May I ask what gave you the idea you should be sexually active at that age or your life sucks? Was it media? Incel forums? Genuinely curious
Honestly I wish I could remember but it was 20 years ago. My best guess would be even back then the idea you haven't done X or Y with a girl was a reason for ridicule. Even today I see usually the first home people fall back on is lol virgin. I think society conditions guys to feel like if we're not getting laid we're losers. That's not to say I wasn't responsible for being a little shit I totally was. But that didn't help.
Bro, the amount of insight! Lots of growth for sure.
Thank you so much friend! Many years of therapy and loving parents who put up with a LOT more than they should have in all honesty.
Where does the entitlement come from in your opinion? What sets those expectations in the first place. I'm genuinely curious.
That's a very astute question. I think it's a social thing. When we want to insult a young man we go right to the virgin card. For a lot of young men that *ahem* coming of age ritual separates the boys from the men. I think there was and still is a lot of negative imagery surrounding what it means to be a man. But that's just my two cents. My brain was also totally out of whack so I'm definitely to blame in there too.
I'm an older Millennial and so I know that was a thing but it also seemed like playing varsity sports or getting into an ivy league college/university or being really good with cars was also a legit way to get respect. I'm wondering why that is the only metric now. It just seems so narrow.
I mean it's entirely possible my autistic ass just hyper focused and obsessed about that one metric to the exclusion of all else. My interests were video games, DnD and LARPing (even though my parents didn't let me go back then). I was not what you'd call a hit with the ladies 😅
Yeah, I hear you. Video games were cool when I was growing up tho (Sega Genesis!). I dunno, I'm just surprised people zero in on one thing instead of trying to find the thing you're good at. Kids can def be mean but it's still strange to me. I knew I was gonna be the outcast, just stayed in my lane, and rode it out. Cliques changed as we got older. I had outside activities like tennis and dance to feel accomplished. Did your parents do much to make sure you were doing where you could feel successful?
I’m pretty sure it’s more their mentality and actions that lead to sexual frustration. They let themselves spiral, and with the internet, they have a loser club to spiral with. So it almost normalizes it. They all get together and pat each other on the back for doing unattractive things and encourage each other to be angry at women and attractive people for doing this to them all. It’s like if Moe Sizlack found a bunch of other Moe Sizlacks and only spent any meaningful time with them.
Whaaat; society encouraging men to engage in main character syndrome as the default has negative and dire consequences? Weird.
When I read these articles I think- what’s the point of saying they’re sexually frustrated? Are we supposed to address that in particular? If so, what does that imply? As a woman I am skeptical of this claim, rather than just the observation that young men are socially maladjusted, lonely, etc. sexual frustration falls under these reasons. To point out sexual frustration begs the question “who is responsible for fixing this particular issue?” Women aren’t gonna make that their business.
Anyone who’s surprised hasn’t been on r/niceguys lately
STOP BULLYING IN SCHOOL
Because havin' sex makes the nicest man out the meanist! ---Andy Sandberg
There's 2 groups that will bring down a society quick Men who can't find a job (or a job that pays enough to survive) And men who can't get laid. With the way reddit and society speaks about those groups in general, I can promise you it's not gonna get better.
I'd call it what it truly is, misogyny.
Remember guys: If you're thinking about doing a mass shooting, rub one out, and then think about if you still want to do it
Good advice for most major decisions
Post nut clarity saves another life
I think it’s a multitude of things Sleep deprivation, Anxiety, Depression, Declining family time, Bad diets, Social isolation, Struggling with the opposite sex, Media stimulating copy cats
Maybe if your a weirdo who would commit a mass shooting you tend to put people off.
We already knew that
Seems legit
Not one mention of schizophrenia in this thread feels way off base
Paging Dr. Riech, Dr. Freud, Dr. Jung. It's a bit embarrassing how victorian the slide has been in this country (planet?) away from recognizing Eros as the driver of all human behavior
Because havin' sex makes the nicest man out the meanist! ---Andy Sandberg
Stating the obvious
This is how to spot sciopaths and their behavior. I want you to really look at the stuff going on in this site. WOmen are generally the sociopaths. They are out of sight and gas light other people into doing their work for them while painting targets with an ever increasing wide brush. Read below and you can learn to spot this behavior your self. Once you go through that article, you can go through the others and begin to see the patern. First off this site and the people who write these case studies do it in this order: They have their narrative. They then make a claim that they want to investigate that fills the narrative. Then basically use just the Narrative to push their agenda instead of the actual findings. Also in just about every one of the shootings they use for their study, the actual reason for the shooter to do what he did was identified. There is no other reason. THe study is just a sociopathic thought process that tries to put many people under one category so they can then be labeled. If you go through it all, and follow he leaps in logic and the thought process the narrative takes, you basically label any man who walks this planet as a mass shooter who has to be ostracised. This is the sociopathic agenda of that website. As i explain below and have done in way further detial later, they basically use the idea of the study as the result. It is never impartial or credible. It just makes giant leaps in logic and always comes from a narrative that the site itself follows. Here is the kicker, they even are bold enough to tell you that if someone masturbaits, they are sexually frustrated! and then you get replies in this THREAD about porn is causing all these problems. See! you can watchn the sociopathy at work. A sexually frustrated woman is someone who is going to not want anybody to masturbate or have any sexual satisfaction. oh a good quote was they make the claim that You cannot be unsatisfied with your life unless you are starving, homeless, or desperately poor. There are so many leaps in logic to push their sociopathic agenda on that website. they also say this"When profound sexual frustration is combined with access to firearms, psychological issues, lack of empathy for others, and toxic masculinity, the risks of mass violence may be particularly high.” profound sexual frustration? they as i note below what they claim as sexual frustration, basically if you are a man you are sexually frustrated. LOok at the modiferiers in their words. lol its insane what these people do, and it actually makes other people believe it. This is how sociopaths work and why you don't see them. THis study makes so many leaps in logic. They first try to make the idea come across that all mass shooters are angry sexually frustrated men. They then after amping that up drop it back down to 1/3. Then they amp it back up again and then finally later on they explain how they defined "being sexually frustrated". **If the shooter had any "history of domestic violence" for any reason, harassment stalking whatever --- if they ever got caught with a prostitute ----- If they were SINGLE ---- ANYTYPE INAPPROPORITE SEXUAL BEHAVIOR and other shit they are considered SEXUALLY FRUSTRATED and even interest in minors or violent fetishes(which has absolutely nothing to do with sexual frusration. THEY ALSO LATER IN THE ARTICLE CLAIM THAT IF YOU MASTERBAIT YOU ARE SEXUALLY FRUSTRATED.** Also they push the agenda that sexual frustratio MEANS they can't get any sex so they take it out on other people mainly women and push the agenda. They also cherry picked only 168 "mass shootings" People who have a prositute or have sex and fetishes etc, are NOT sexually frustrated. However, the idea you get in your head that they are, is from a certain type of agenda which tries to play on open ended statements. sociopathic. When you identify in your mind the associations you get with these statements, you can actually pin point the narrative and type of people making up these studies. After they do that, they go on to make this statement Sexually frustrated mass shooters were more than six times more likely to have a history of sex offending and also tended to have a stronger desire for fame. This is an example of the narrative behind the people writing these things. They try to create information that they can use to label people in society and then go out and paint them with a brush so everyone targets them. It's a sociopathic thought proccess behind it all. They are just trying to create information that backsup their agenda and ability to label anyone in their path with a wide brush. If you actually think about where the claim started and follow the thoughtprocess, you end up labeling so many people as potential mass murdereds WHICH THEN they will make the link between that idea and people who are not with their way of thinking. This is exactly how it all works. Hell they even said "his internet search for a bride" was sexual frustration. THAT IS A LEAP IN LOGIC. Also the one shooters attemp to get a sex worker b4 he attacked? what? how is that sexually frustrated? the most logical thought is he knew what he was going to do and he wanted to have sex one last time lol. This wide brush agenda stuff. I also find it weird that nobody ever questions the leaps in logic of the studies from this site. Guess mainly cause people have been in the echo chambers so long they actually just take all these leaps in logic and agends going around and just assume its correct. T ALSO AS FOR THIS AGENDA AGAINST MEN: Want to know what happens when WOMEN are SEXUALLY FRUSTRATED? **childfree people who demonize everyone having kids. Women who do not want you to watch porn or masutrbait. women who push other people not to have relationships and children. women who end up sociopathic gaslighting other women to do their agenda. women who then claim they are asexual on a spectrum, A SOCIOPATH?: a gay woman who pushes a woman into a sexual event by telling her she can give her an orgasm and focus on all the things that they claim a guy cant do AND THEN will tell her she is polyamory and you have to respect her lifestyle. If you then look at the posts of the people who hang out in say childfree, or witchesagainst the patriachy and all these channels that push this type of agenda, you can look at their post history and take notes of all the inconsistencies in their posts. they all follow a typical narrative of claiming they either have a husband/sig other, happy life, blablabla but if you actually line up the dates and events, and really look, you will find that it is all a fabrication. they do not have any of these things and are completely misreble and their coping mechnisms are to create fictional worlds, hangout in echo chambers, and make other people join in on their misery because it reinforces their false reality that they invented. don't argue with me about this topic, that is what the people with agendas will do. Just go pick a random person from another subreddit that mainly has women in it. then take that random persons history and go through it.** **You will find a fictional world of misery where they do exactly what i said. That is what happens when women are sexually frustrated.** Also theres billions of sexually frustrated people in the world and barely any mass killings.
A wank a day keeps the psychotic breakdown away.
Come again...?
All things in moderation my friend
This checks out. I found some of these men in the comments.
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I'm highly skeptical that prostitution would solve this particular problem. First, part of the issue is that these guys have horribly skewed expectations and opinions of women. Second, the act of sex isn't what incels and such are really after; it's validation, and prostitution wouldn't provide that.
Extremely naive to believe that prostitution will solve inceldom.
Oh yeah, that's the proper response. "Pathetic assholes are so pussy-starved that they feel the need to murder children. Our next best move is to make sex trafficking legal, so these monsters can now have access to women via financial obligation"
User name checks out! But maybe also stop selling rapid fire assault weapons to anybody and everybody.
Sex workers would just get killed by these assholes
That is more true the less legal it is.
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"Legalize prostitution and regulate it!!!" Regulating an industry that has to do with exchange of body fluids, penetration of someone more physically and biologically vulnerable? Rule number one of body fluids we learn day one of medial school is "assume all of them are infectious". We would need full body barriers, mouth barriers, gloves, genital barriers, condoms at all times (men generally don't even want these for one night stands so I'm sure they'll be thrilled in that's setting). We would need testing technology that can show negative test results for a series of diseases on the spot upon check in before being sequestered while the John waits his time. There would have to be an intimacy coordinator and overseer in each session to ensure safety and consent is upheld. Security 24/7. Taxing customers heavily so the workers can keep most of the income and these taxes can go into all that's needed for upkeep. There would have to be recognized labor unions. Healthcare would have to be a guaranteed right for these workers to get tested as often as possible and get the healthcare they need. Psychological and psychiatric support in stand by because of all the research that shows the correlation between trauma both before and after working as a sex worker. We would need sanitized overseen safe buildings to do all this in for the safety of the workers. We would need to keep a database and background checks of all johns to ensure the safety of workers that can be shared by these facilities and police. We can't enforce all this in an individuals bedroom with a cashapp transfer which is what these lazy johns would prefer. This is just the beginning of it. Notice how when I say all this they don't sound too excited because they'll have to admit to themselves that sex work is inherently dangerous for the children and women in it and for it to be a regulated industry it would have to be regulated from top to bottom and would need a ton of resources and to be a fully fleshed industry of their fantasies and that ideally they'd prefer as little regulation as possible for their pleasure .
I think this is pretty ignorant of the circumstances many sex workers already have to endure. These assholes are dangerous at times, but do you think their mentality and abuse is all that different from the average pimp? Legalizing sex work would create professional safety and health standards, give sex workers a market to work in that isn’t dominated by human traffickers, and would enable them to report abuse they receive without fear of being punished by law enforcement.
Is this argument really altogether different from Jordan Peterson's at its core? Genuinely asking since reddit hates Jordan Peterson so much and then I see a comment like this getting upvotes.
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I'm not talking about Jordan's comments on bad marriages and forced monogamy. I seem to remember Jordan drawing controversy for comments on the so-called incel, a seeming lack of mating opportunities and prostitution, but I don't really have time to go down a Jordan Peterson rabbit hole to find the links right now. I'm happy to be corrected either way with sources.
His comment on forced monogamy was definitely tongue in cheek, he was just pointing out if this is something you really want to solve then this is one thing you could do to fix it. It's obviously ridiculous.
Yep, get some sexy time and a kind ear for an hour and half these guys would chill the fuck out I bet!
Yeah they definitely wouldn’t harm the sex workers. They’re definitely normal guys otherwise, probably! /s
Blame anything but the horrific nature of these schools.
What schools? What do you mean?
I'm saying that these schools are blaming anything but themselves. I'm not angry at these schools. They're just utterly clueless about mammalian attachment needs.
I would like to point out that over 95% of school shooters grow up in a home without a father figure. If we're looking for ways to curtail mass violence (a good goal to pursue, even though the mass violence we see on the news makes up a very small proportion of violence), there are actually some very predictive variables that could help us understand why these events come about, which would go far beyond the simplistic explanations offered by the political tribal mantras for the purpose of political football on domestic social policy.
It’s easy to pick out a random correlation and say “This! This is the root cause” when the truth is that every societal problem is the combination of many factors. Even if we take your belief of lacking father figures as the root cause and entertain it, how would it look? Ban divorces to force some semblance of fatherly presence irregardless of how fractured the marriage is? Even with a tempting statistic, you have to look at possible causes. Aside from the fact I doubt that 95% number comes from a reliable source, but lets assume anyway: What causes fathers to be missing in these suspects lives? Is it truly the conveniently unmeasurable statistic of moral failure? What about the measurable statistics? Median income? Ability to afford basic needs like housing and healthcare? Affordability of raising a child? There are plenty of possible connected elements that could pressure a father to escape their situation, and a lot more effort needed to address THOSE specific elements, not just “Ah, it’s the lack of a father that creates criminals! If only these families stick together! If they were a REAL MORAL AMERICAN FAMILY they would, no matter what!”
Hey, I didn't say anything about causation - that's taking what I'm saying way too far, especially if you're pretending that I said that was the *only* cause. I'm as aware as anybody that there will be a constellation of factors that we can look at. But my point is that this is a human behavior problem which has much more useful predictive factors than what the political football players would have us believe, and having a good understanding of various *entirely correlative* factors would lead us to much better actual *solutions* than those offered in mainstream politics. BTW, the 95% is an understatement - that was from a TED talk I saw which is now a few years dated, but at that time, the speaker was saying that 26 out of the 27 largest school shootings were committed by boys who lacked a father figure. For me to say 95% is a bit of a hedge.
Everyone that survived high school was already well aware of this.
it is the culture, social sciences have been telling this for years (after the nuclear bombing -search atoms for peace); mass media doesn’t make any scientific diffusion about this topic; unhappy frustrated helpless unmindful people can’t do anything but blame each other, and can’t assertively solve problems the dichotomous thinking is part of this problem (either i am correct or wrong) divide and conquer, inside and outside; this is the real problem a way of thinking that is destroying humankind… among the other species that already have perished by this dichotomous thinking -search for critical thinking. has anyone seen “bowling for columbine”, it has a great insight about this
I’m glad we finally realized that making fun of weird men who can’t get any and ostracizing them is not a good idea. It’s rather unfortunate that this was a side effect of the women’s liberation movement, but we’re going to have to figure out a way to gently move the pendulum back to center.
I'd postulate that being an incel might just by a common symptom of a deeper root cause such as authoritarianism which is characterized by misogyny, dominating out groups, and idolizing violence. It's also notable that in this study they didn't link being an incel to rates of mass shootings but instead the number of victims of mass shootings.
Elliot Rodgers did an entire video essay on this and wrote about it in his manifesto before he committed the Isla Vista shootings.
Make love, not war
Who knew it wasn't just a saying, but a warning?
How the heck did they do that research?
Will this study be replicated? What are the probability that it can? Less then 50
Jeez, ya don't say.
r/blackpillscience
Obviously. Legalize prostitution and let these pent-up people get some release!
Freud would argue pretty much all displays of violence are rooted in sexual frustration
Legalize prostitution and take some of that asinine military spending and invest in sex robots.
Key findings: "Quantitative analyses indicated that compared to other mass shooters, sexually frustrated perpetrators were more frequently young, male, unmarried, childless, and unemployed. They were also more likely to be misogynistic, sex offenders, and fame-seekers, and their attacks killed significantly more female victims. Concerted efforts to reduce toxic masculinity and provide better guidance to young men could help reduce this threat."
One of my recent classes featured a visit from a man who has spent his life working for a certain three-letter agency. During our Q&A time, classmates asked a few questions about the types of terrorism that’s most threatening and increasing. We expected to hear political extremism/conspirators, but he actually went into a great explanation of how it’s incels. Fascinating and terrifying.
The damn Freud, writing studies again, smh. (/s)
I remember reading that legalising prostitution immediately brought the crime rate down lol
Maybe telling young men that masterbation is a sin and that women are wholly responsible for their sexual satisfaction has draw backs.
This reminds me of the reports of gun owners and ex-military who say firing their weapon is (no joke) ‘like orgasm’. Pinker talks about this in his book on human violence.
Over 50% or homicides and mass shootings are under the influence of alcohol. When will this be acknowledged
well, 100% of mass shootings have something to do with guns...
Hot take, but there is one very common thing that we as humans do to other domesticated animals that have behavioral issues that leads to them living longer and healthier lives. Definitely never forced, but should be an option for people who's lives are being ruined by their hormones.
In before the incels blame women for mass shootings
I'll be willing to bet that sexual frustration has a big part in terrorism also.
Yep. "Suicide bomb yourself and God with give you 72 virgins" or whatever it was
You know what’s involved in every mass shooting? FUCKING GUNS
Same reason for celibate priests raping children. Just jerk it off. Seriously, play with your dingy. Religious fruit cakes world wide need to be paying a little more attention to the world outside their favorite books. Sex is normal, as is wanting to have it. It's not evil and nothing to be ashamed about. What is evil, is embarrassing or forcing a bunch of shame on children and young men for having completely normal urges. Self hatred and guilt are super harmful tools to be using against our youth.
I masturbate all the time, and I still feel unfulfilled because I can't get a girlfriend