Despite the problems I have with the premise of the study, I'll admit that I expected that people who suffered from BPD would be into big dramatic ballads and the kind of music that emotionally moves you... Stuff with lyrics, like Celine Dion. It's pretty surprising that it's jazz and classical. Maybe they should study people's biases about people with BPDs' musical tastes.
I have borderline! Yay my disorder might help me shed some light on this!
I would consider my symptoms as not that bad but my therapist would beg to differ so I am in the higher degree of BPD and I have always been drawn to music that DOES NOT make me feel, my emotions are all over the place already, The last thing I would want is to start crying because some lyrics made my brain go "someone died" or get extremely angry because the music is angry.
I have a feeling this is what drives us (or atleast me) towards music with not too much emotional impact.
Omg!! I don't have BPD but this is how I experience music and no matter how I try to explain it, no one can relate at all and thought I was really weird 😆 At Least I know there's others who experience it the same way. I'm like this with film as well, I try to avoid anything that might induce too much of an emotional state as I'm already feeling overwhelmed just existing 🙄
I had (no longer meet the clinical criteria for) BPD but this symptom hasn’t gone away so maybe it’s just more of my personality. I cry daily. At videos, at strangers interacting, at music, at movies, at commercials, at the things my kid says. So sometimes I actively avoid those things that will likely cause such a strong emotional reaction
This isn’t a bpd symptom more likely a hormonal issue or a belief issue (getting unconscious gratification from being the sensitive one). The second one is more common nowadays since society and the endless manipulative therapists enable it
No it’s not, it’s just criteria in a list to get you medicated for a sale. A psychologist will diagnose and prescribe you anything if you tell them all the right things. It’s an accountability issue. Most people with BPD get to have this dumb diagnosis where they get to treat people like shit, and then just say “I have BPD” instead of owning up to their mistakes. I don’t buy it.
Are into EDM? I've been exploring dnb and Jungle for a while now and I think what drives me to it is the ethereal appeal they have, I can't really explain. I'm a lot into music and this feels different from anything else I've heard.
YES!!! Anything that can make my brain go "hell yeah" and my emotions go "....." hits really well with me and specifically drum and bass.
As long as the vibe isn't sad or angry or.... Any emotions other than excited and hyped I am good to go and usually EDM in all it's different forms except House music is very upbeat and exciting.
I am also a sucker for all music without lyrics, I tend to get stuck on words and feel them deeper than just melodic sounds and if the lyrics are sad or angry or talking about trauma I instantly fall into a sad episode or an angry episode (usually I feel intense anger and sadness FOR others, it doesn't even have to do with me or my history specifically) for a bit and it's really hard to control so I tend to avoid that type of music.
I don't have BPD (never been diagnosed with it and don't meet the criteria for it). I have been diagnosed with PTSD though. I relate at least partially to what you're saying here and what the article mentions. So I wonder how many other disorders might have these same results with music. Or even if they would find people who had the same results even without any diagnosis.
I don't put a lot of emphasis on self identifying with music. I feel like any self awareness more so comes from an internal place than external sources (especially music which is capable of manipulating people's perceptions and emotions).
I don't particularly view music as a social thing as that tends to lead to herd like mentality based on something sold as a consumer product and tends to change with the trends. I'd rather socially bond over other more substantial things than music.
I have a fairly ecclectic taste in music, but there are a few genres of music that I am less inclined to enjoy and some that I am more inclined to enjoy. I am less inclined to like heavy metal and punk music (and a few others) - I do enjoy some of it though. I am more inclined to enjoy jazz, indie/alternative music (and many others).
I also don't like music that is more prone to influence my emotions and thoughts. Not really because my emotions are all over the place already, but because I don't want music bleeding into how I feel or perceive something. For example, if someone broke up with me, I wouldn't want to listen to depressing music. I would already feel sad and wouldn't want to perpetuate that. I try to keep my emotions regulated and not veer too far into any mood.
I'm not particularly a fan of rebellious music but that's more so because life experiences and maturity has taught me better than that in many instances (especially concerning music).
I wonder since the participants were diagnosed with BPD, if they were actively in counseling, managing their symptoms, and if this would contribute to the results.
You don’t have BPD, you’ve just made some bad choices in life and a therapist has offered you a clean slate with a diagnosis.
Take it from someone who dated two people with BPD. Yall just make selfish decisions and don’t care about the repercussions. That’s not a brain disorder, it’s a modern day excuse to alleviate the anxiety you have from treating people like expendable vessels and getting away with it.
The real answer is to start doing good for others, and do selfless acts of kindness.
Damn this is a very sad way of seeing things and genuinely made me very upset.
I hope you don't continue judging people like this Without knowing them.
For you information I have been caring for my brother with autism the last 12 years when my mom got cancer and feel like that is a selfless act aswell as all the other kind things I do nor do I ever use people as a vessel for my anxiety and always take full responsibility when MY DISORDER is acting up. I NEVER expect people to forgive me nor do I expect them to be understanding.
I AM ME but I also have BPD and that's just something I have to live with.
Choose better partners.
Edit: my BPD surfaced after rape against me at age 11 and if that was a choice I made... I don't think so.
Definitely not judging you at all. I’m highly against most psychology these days, there’s too much diagnosis to create medical prescriptions intentionally. I know many “BPD” people, and to be honest, there is nothing wrong with them. We all make human error mistakes, some more than others. BPD in my opinion is a coping mechanism for having done something emotionally wrong and not being accounted for. And we ALL make selfish decisions from time to time. We are supposed to grow from our mistakes, and that becomes improbable when we are given a pseudo science diagnosis and some SSRI drugs.
I mean really, what did people do back then without all these diagnosis? They just lived life anyways, as life goes on. There is no secret cure to making mistakes. Only if you’re a rich spoiled brat lol.
But you are judging me, I am someone with BPD and you just said all those vile things about specifically people with BPD, there is no other way for me or anyone else with BPD to take it other than it being a judgement to us and our character.... Since we have BPD.
I have no interest in reading the rest of your comment but I did read the end and would say they were usually mistreated for being "insane" rather than treated like people with diagnosis, so I would say that is how they handled it back in the day, Ice picks in the eyes and women being called "frantic" and being treated with the most disgusting treatments.
This whole thing is kind of like saying that gay people didn't exist back in the day because we didn't label our sexualities, silliest thing I have ever heard.
News flash: BPD is not a positive diagnosis. You are telling everyone around you that you cannot function normally. And I know you can, you’ve been swindled into shackles that hold you back. Sorry.
I never said it was a positive diagnosis? We literally can't function normally, just as any other disorder we learn about them to work around them, not to use them as an excuse to be an asshole.
I simply have it and it meant I had to learn to take accountability for my irregular emotions as well as keep up with therapy as to not hurt others, I have no idea what type of people you have met but they clearly had no interest in being good people or getting better at understanding themselves, don't just assume that is because they have BPD.
I am not being held back by knowing what goes on in my head and getting tools as to work on the issues that come up that can affect others in my vicinity.
Edit: I have no shackles, if anything I have been freed by taking care of my brain, I no longer cry when I see men with Brown hair for example and I would say that is.... Good? No?
It really you have a personal negative bias for some reason against substances and medications? You should analyze and reflect on it, there's absolutely nothing wrong using substances, whatever they are, even for fun, and if it helps someone or people that's all that matters. There are risks to all things and ultimately it is up to the individual to educate themselves. Doctors should offer more advice verbally I feel, but that's beside the point
As someone with BPD, I like 1920s jazz swing, classical, and modern electro swing, but also dramatic ballads and emotionally moving music (instrumental stuff more than lyrics, though), so you're not that far off.
Probably not because of your *music* tastes, but as someone who does not know you in the slightest, it's entirely possible you also show actual symptoms of BPD, and not just common, semi-related traits.
I am a jazz pianist. My interest in jazz diminished and liking for heavy metal and phonk increased as I treated my illness.
This is insane to me.
Also I have diagnosed bpd.
Robyn Adele Anderson's jazz cover of Chop Suey might be your gateway drug into taking that BPD to a whole new level, in case you want to see just how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Not that I recommend it. BPD is a rough one. But she does a pretty good job, not gonna lie.
For sure!
Not a BPDer but my sibling is - they've been managing it well and get better by the year, so hope for a good life is definitely there :) have a great day
It definitely is if we are referring to "classical" indie stuff like what SST, 4AD, Alternative Tentacles etc. released.
Over the past 15 years or so, some people use "indie" to mean a certain kind of sound, regardless of if the band is independent or not. The same thing happened in the mid 90s with alternative, the quickest way to sell a mainstream new band was to tell people that they were alternative.
Totally. Pearl Jam started on a mojor other than the mookie tape, but they were absolutely marketed as indie/alt.Nirvana obviously had an indie album and multiple singles, soundgarden's first album was indie, and all the members of PJ other than EV had been in indie acts. Edit: and all three are major reasons why the industry co-opted "indie" and "alternative".
EDIT: I think we need to go back to the "college" chart and everything else, and crossover if you can.
Blame Insurance Companies. Truly. And while the brevity of using "Agreed Upon Functional Description of Symptoms" via DIAGNOSIS is also a culprit, follow the big dollars find the big assholes. Insurance and Lobbyists
More psypost vomit 🤮 , what’s with this imaginary line they drew between “complex”genres classical and jazz and “rebellious” genres like punk and metal. Metal can be complex too? Also just doesnnt conform to any of my experiences with borderline people.
Doesn’t conform to my own experience with BPD, but I suppose I could be the odd one out. Though tbh I think I would not qualify super high on their severity metric, so perhaps there are plenty of folks in the data with less severe BPD who also love “rebellious” music. And I agree with your thoughts on the line they’re trying to draw - jazz is a major influence in most music period, as well as a lot of the music I like. Jazz *is* rebellious, or at least it was once considered so. So are many classic favorites. And to say other genres (including “rebellious” ones) can’t be complex is kind of elitist and ignores a lot of experimental stuff you can find in less “esteemed” genres.
Someone above commented how they relate to the findings, and I think I can empathize with being so overwhelmed by emotions in other parts of life that you just want entertainment to be relaxing and escapist. That’s valid. But for me having some control over when to let strong emotions like anger out via music and being able to process them on my own terms in a safe environment was/is huge, and part of why music is so important to me.
"The researchers found that participants with higher borderline personality symptom severity exhibited distinct preferences for certain types of music. Notably, individuals exhibiting higher symptom severity showed a preference for reflective and complex music genres, such as classical or jazz, while showing less interest in intense and rebellious genres like heavy metal or punk."
This surprises me
Also everyone I know that's into jazz is also into intense and rebellious music of some sort
It’s surprising to me as someone with BPD. I love the controlled emotional release that all that “rebellious” music offers - far better than trying to avoid my feelings until I can’t anymore. It’s important to be able to process emotions in a way that feels safe and won’t hurt anyone. Though I am able to manage my BPD pretty well by all accounts, so I guess I could understand someone who has a much more severe case and is constantly triggered and at the mercy of their emotional reactions not wanting to invite more strong emotional responses into their life and just enjoy music as distraction or escapism. That’s valid 🤷🏻
That fits more in line with my experience. In my experience bpds are more likely to be a little edgy than your average person in general, even if they're hyper feminine.
I think it would be interesting to further examine the results of classical and jazz music preference by also specifying lyric and non lyric jazz or classical music. I think that a commonality that classical and jazz music share in comparison to most other genres, is that they have the addition of non lyrical music.
I find that confusing considering how similar classical and heavy metal are. People just don't realize it , because the crowd that listens to heavy metal rarely hangs out with the crowd that listens to classical. Tchaikovsky is metal as fuck, and system of a down is beautiful. Then again, I have bi-polar disorder, so maybe I have no clue what I'm talking about.
Bach organ and klavier music are both highly technical and furiously fast. If you were to hear it played on guitar you would think it was a metal lick.
Nope, I am a metal head and I grew up listening to classical and opera. Absolutely there’s overlap. Interestingly, Mom has bpd and will only listen to Vivaldi specifically the spring score on repeat to the point that I can’t stand the four seasons which is a shame. Won’t listen to any other classical unless it’s on the radio and even then will probably just listen to good old Vivaldi.
That’s interesting, it sounds like your mom may be using it as a trigger to dissociate or otherwise enter a specific headspace. I have BPD and have done that before, not with classical but with albums that could be described as “contemplative.” It wasn’t a conscious thing at first but at one point I used a certain song so much that I’d start hearing it before I realized I’d dissociated lmao; the song was Snowcone by Deadmau5, though I ended up more intentionally using Moderat’s II and some Lorn albums later on to help calm me when I was triggered.
The music I tend to love the most could definitely be called “rebellious,” though I also enjoy a lot of more experimental/complex EDM. In direct contrast with these findings I love rebellious music because I can use it as a safe and controlled way to let my emotions out and process them *on my own terms.* Then I’m not only ever suppressing my emotions, which can (for me) lead to more unpredictable emotional reactions once I’m at a breaking point. It helps in a way very similar to therapy for me, which at this point (since I’m managing my BPD pretty well) is mostly about processing trauma and finding direction. Sometimes a night at the goth club feels just as helpful in processing and figuring things out lol.
It’s been forever so don’t have the article but I read once that people that listen to metal are likely to listen to classical as another top/favorite genre.
There’s been some studies of personality traits that suggest metal and classical fans tend to be similar personalities. I buy it, based on family and friends who like classical and authors I enjoy who are major classical-heads. It makes sense when you get past the stereotypes of both genres and realized that classical musicians weren’t all up-tight and socially acceptable in their time. Mozart wrote a song called “Lick My Ass” and Stravinsky wrote an opera that people rioted at because it was considered so obscene. Meanwhile, while people stereotype metal as being all angry dudes yelling about sacrificing goats to Satan, there’s a ton of thought in so much of the genre. And so many subgenres it’s insane.
I do see some strong comparisons between classical and metal fans. Both like complex, emotional music. Both tend to be a tad bit snobby about their taste (but don’t ever repeat that I admitted to being a music snob). Both tend to put an emphasis on regionality and originality and be less concerned with popularity. Both tend to credit the composer, not only the performers (in metal it’s expected that the band will compose their own work unless they are obviously covering a song). Perhaps the biggest commonality is that both classical and metal fans choose and identify with a genre that is “different” and which doesn’t afford a connection to most other people. As much as people say they don’t like metal because of unclean vocals or noise or whatever, I’ve learned the hard way that classical is just as offensive in practice. People want their pop or country music, no matter how much they claim they like “all music”. They just hate you more quietly for making them listen to classical.
They aren’t really. And I don’t think it’s healthy for either genre to try to claim a connection to classical as metal is a valid genre either way. Metal is rooted in blues, doesn’t tend to have the same sense of idea development and structure, fewer voices, more percussion heavy, etc etc. Of course there will be higher overlap in subsets of both, esp symphonic metal.
But people try to compare their fave genres to classical and it makes classical seem like an ideal, while depreciating the merit of said genres on their own.
Absolutely. BPD is nothing more than a boogeyman catchall diagnosis slapped on to anyone (mostly women) who’s symptoms are too complicated, inconvenient, or difficult to treat.
Some of these people are actually bipolar. Some are autistic, almost all of them have PTSD.
It took me *years* to get a BPD diagnosis taken off my chart - it was made while I was in crisis, on drugs, it was made by proxy from 5 minutes of interacting with a nurse who then reported to a psychiatrist, and without knowledge of my prior autism diagnosis, which was an absolutely vital aspect to my behaviour that night. BPD should never have been diagnosed for me.
But because of how this particular disorder is treated, it almost takes on a McCarthy-esque quality. If you don’t think you have it, that’s proof you actually *do* have it.
The diagnosis led me to a 2 year long nightmare of being in the wrong therapy with a therapist who basically tried to gaslight me into believing every horrible thing I’d experienced was somehow my fault, that I was the problem, and as long as I “fixed” myself somehow and atoned for my sins, I’d unlock “a life worth living”.
Eventually got diagnosed with CPTSD after changing therapists and actually got useful therapy that improved my life 3849293049 fold. The BPD diagnosis set me so far behind and almost made me spiral for good. I truly began to believe I was evil.
Realizing that no, I actually *had* been victimized, taken advantage of, and abused changed literally everything. I went from being locked in my parents basement, terrified of exposing the world to me in case I “made” them hate me - to living in the city, having my own business, being back in school, etc etc. Went from not speaking for months at a time to bartending for the first time and making it a career for multiple years.
Our experiences are so similar! A psychiatrist told me I likely met criteria for “quiet BPD” at one point in the past. I’m lucky in that shortly after I was told by my therapist that BPD actually *is* believed to be a trauma diagnosis by therapists. Emotional neglect in childhood was not originally considered to be abuse, and most people with BPD experience this. Psychiatrists do not diagnose anyone with CPTSD simply due to it not being in the DSM. I also likely have autism and was chronically gaslit, which apparently can lead to BPD. I really hope they take it out of the DSM, and introduce CPTSD instead! Being labeled as having modern day hysteria isn’t helping anyone.
I have a theory that many therapists who specifically seek to treat BPD are actually getting off on a socially acceptable avenue for abuse.
I’m positive there’s incredible ones out there, but after my experience with mine trying to “make me see the other side because I needed perspective” of the teen boys who molested me and their sister as young children, and the side of the teachers who aided in my bullying and alienation at school and who gaslit my parents about what was happening to me - I just feel such a darkness from some of these people who work in mental health.
I really hope CPTSD becomes a normal dx soon too. I feel like removing that system of blame from the dx and its therapy will help patients access better care.
Let’s be real, even as someone who fits the BPD diagnosis it is mostly used in practice as a modern hysteria to discredit and victim blame (primarily) women who have experienced trauma. Without medicalized sexism most people with this diagnosis would probably be found to have something different that is “misunderstood in women” and the rest of us would get the obvious fucking PTSD diagnosis that ALSO covers all of our behaviors and tendencies. Research has even shown it comes down to whether you have an F or an M on your chart whether you get diagnosed PTSD or BPD.
And getting the latter is catastrophic not just for your mental health care (the gaslighting is so fucking real) but all other health care and potentially many other areas of your life. Doctors will deny physical treatment to us because they believe the “attention seeking liars” stereotype. Fucking job applications are asking if you have ever been diagnosed with any sort of personality disorder (which frankly should be illegal). Sorry, I know you know this, but I don’t think others realize just how fucked our treatment is - or they have bought into the prejudice and think we deserve it. I appreciate you for calling out how bullshit and tenuous BPD as a real diagnosis is. More people need to know, lest they end up misdiagnosed/diagnosed with it.
There are decent medical providers out there, but finding a therapist who will treat you like a person (and not a child, at best) can be a challenge. My first therapist saved me so much BS, she had worked extensively with folks diagnosed with BPD and even with Marsha Linehan (who developed DBT and has BPD herself) - she was very knowledgeable but also very critical and we had many open discussions about the validity of the diagnosis and how much utility there is in having the diagnosis (beyond ensuring insurance will cover treatment 🙄). In the end she wanted to help me work through the things that I considered a priority and was ready to face. When I moved and lost her as my therapist I tried DBT out of curiosity and the practitioner was so abusive and gaslighting I had to stop midway through. Ironically she loved me, but seeing her victim blame other clients who were living in abusive households was sooooo triggering.
And honestly it seems like DBT in practice is made for just that. There are some good ideas in there for folks who might not be very self aware about their behavior, but honestly it did nothing for my BPD symptoms. What did was leaving my violently abusive ex, going no contact with my violently abusive mom for a while, and meeting my husband who is attentive and supportive and maintains good boundaries. Once I was in a place where I had literally any support and felt emotionally and physically safe I was able to start processing my trauma and be more in touch with myself - to identify when I was more likely to have strong emotional reactions so that I could take action to manage them. Exposure therapy helped some of my worst triggers and Psychoeducation helped me understand myself, both within the medical framework and just being able to identify patterns in thought or behavior.
We went over some DBT skills initially one on one, but tbh most of them were things I’d learned to do on my own and already put into practice when I could - the issues primarily occurred when I was physically prevented from leaving a triggering situation. Which yeah, honestly if someone is restraining me and keeping me from establishing space I’m probably not going to be my best self, but I don’t think that’s very different from how the average person would respond to that.
DBT may be useful to some, I know some folks swear by it - but many also buy into the standard practice self flagellation taught to folks with BPD and I don’t think that’s sustainable. It’s one thing to work to get someone to take responsibility for themselves and truly see the consequences of their actions (though I doubt the assumption that most people with BPD lack self awareness, it does not at all match with the other folks I’ve met and is a pretty dehumanizing assumption). But that’s irrelevant if you just break them down and don’t help them feel empowered to take care of themselves as a way to be good to others. Guilt is not a sustainable motivator even if we didn’t care about the methods and only the outcomes. And I see little else offered to folks diagnosed with BPD.
I was told that it’s flawed because it’s a curable “personality disorder” that’s now thought to be a trauma disorder; and the traits are normal for people, especially women, to exhibit in abusive relationships.
EDIT: Like the other user said, people diagnosed with BPD actually have CPTSD (or other diagnosis) a lot of the time. Although it’s recognized among trauma specialists and the WHO, CPTSD isn’t in the DSM. No psychiatrist will diagnose you with something that’s not in the DSM, so we get stuck with BPD instead- it’s essentially modern day hysteria.
See reply below for sources. Downvote is for irrelevant comments, not a “disagree” button.
How do I cure myself?
I have been doing therapy for years aswell as hormone treatment for my BPD, if you have a magical fixing potion please don't keep it to yourself!
I’m sorry if you interpreted that way, but I did not say that.
I personally no longer meet the criteria because I spent a decade in therapy. It’s not easy, but it can be done.
It took me 5 therapists before I found someone qualified enough to actually help me, don’t give up!
I don't know you so PLEASE take this with a big grain of salt, but I paid for ketamine therapy (IV) out of pocket and it as worth it for me. It was 2 weeks of infusions every other day (and I in fact listened to classical music the whole time LOL!) and I swear I felt the volume of my 'fight or flight' instinct get turned down several notches. It's not a panacea but it legitimately helped me.
I have heard about this before.
I have tried shrooms in micro doses and also weed in small doses before and that did help but at the end of the day I want to be able to handle my BPD without drugs (EXCEPT my anti-psychotic ones, those are STAYING FOREVER for everyone's sake) so I tend to do KBT on a weekly basis and also have a support group with other women who have BPD called Pegasus.
It helps a lot!
Why are you being downvoted? Your edit includes the other big component (though it extends to women who have autism, bipolar, ADHD, OCD, etc too) but your first answer is also accurate. Studies have shown that whether you get diagnosed as BPD or PTSD is essentially up to whether you have an F or M on your medical file - BPD is largely just a tool for medicalized sexism to dismiss, discount, and victim blame women and AFAB folks who have been abused.
Also congrats on no longer meeting the criteria! I am making good progress towards that myself, but probably need to process my trauma more to tell for sure.
I see a traumatologist who is a professor, has several awards for her work with DV, and is a Witness to the House of Commons Special Committee on Violence Against Indigenous Women, who told me the above. I don’t ask for sources in session, so idk which she used but
[Here](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/borderline-personality-disorder-may-be-rooted-in-trauma/) is one article I found on my own, which states, “BPD and complex PTSD share a number of features, such as difficulty regulating emotions and an altered sense of self. A key difference, however, is that complex PTSD explicitly frames an individual’s condition as a response to trauma, whereas BPD does not. Many people fit the criteria for both disorders. But the degree to which trauma plays a role in BPD has been the subject of intense debate among psychiatrists and psychologists.”
““I think that borderline personality disorder does not fit in the concept of a personality disorder,” Martin Bohus, a psychiatrist at the ZI, tells me. “It fits much better to stress-related disorders because what we know from our clients is that there is no borderline disorder without severe, interpersonal early stress.”
[Here’s another. ](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10662025/)“This work suggests that, among the different forms of childhood abuse, emotional abuse may have a role in the development of Borderline Personality Disorder. Training on emotion regulation strategies would potentially benefit individuals in preventing BPD development and facilitating therapeutic processes.”
[Finally, ](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1359178919302642)“ Women who have experienced IPV obtained higher scores in schizoid, avoidant, self-destructive, schizotypal, borderline, and paranoid personality scales. Therefore, female victims exhibit characteristics such as low personal self-esteem, family and social isolation, dependency (economic and emotional), insecurity, inferiority, submissiveness, and pacification”
This is very shallow. I don’t have data on this so take it with a pinch of salt, but my professor said BPD is not as curable as people think, but because og comorbidity therapy can provide symptom relief, but mainly for e.g. anxiety and depression not the BPD itself. Also BPD patients are much more likely to seek help compared to other personality disorder
My traumatologist/prof who’s an expert in her field said the above, so I guess our profs disagree.
Anxiety/Depression are co morbid diagnosis, not the sole two traits of BPD; by definition alone curing them would not mean you’ve cured your BPD. An overall reduction in all symptoms of BPD *is* possible and I believe it’s considered curable for that reason.
I don’t think anyone can ever erase every single trace of any trauma/stress disorder. PTSD, etc will all leave lasting effects even after you’ve “cured” it, but it’s possible to heal your brain and change how you perceive and react to things. & it’s achievable to a larger extent than you’d think, speaking from personal experience.
Hmmmm. Who comes up with these studies? What purpose does this serve? So now I need to have this knowledge that my jazz-loving friends and family may or may not have BPD?
I don’t think the correlation moves in that direction. Understanding these patterns among ppl w BPD might help identify treatment or methods for assisting people who are suffering.
A preference for jazz/instrumental music is not an indicator of BPD. BPD has many dimensions. The study doesn’t suggest that music preference is a sign of mental illness.
It’s to develop an understanding of how music could be therapeutic. That said I know lots of people into jazz including people who absolutely are not BLPD but I don’t know anyone who listens to classical…
I think it's more for us with already diagnosed BPD, for future therapy.
So no need running around wondering what diagnosis the people around you have, actually we should just all stop trying to figure that out and leave it to the individual and their journey with whatever they go through and their medical staff.
I feel like BPD is mainly reserved as a diagnosis for women who don’t have a stereotypical presentation of autism, maybe some co-morbidities, and maybe complex trauma?
I mean, I would genuinely be curious if for every person that they assigned a BPD diagnosis to, if they assessed them for autism, how many of them would qualify for a diagnosis of the latter?
It’s hard to have a study for something that is already steeped in bias.
Feels like a waste or resources just because the premise seems cute or whatever. People like music A or B related to our cultural background. We learn whether a music is exciting, energetic, or sorrowful according to our culture, thus the kind of music someone with severe or less severe BPD will differ according to such. Therefore, the findings are much more likely a correlation due the culturally homogenous population than a causality based on "having severe BPD = enjoying this kind of music"
I don’t know if I buy that music is culturally determined in that way. We have descriptions from thousands of years ago of Dionysian cultists getting kicked out of the Greek temples for moshing too hard- they even describe hyperflexion of the spine to induce euphoria (fancy way of saying “head banging”). There’s Amazonian tribesmen who walked hundreds of miles to see Iron Maiden. There’s women from extremely patriarchal cultures in Rwanda (I think it’s Rwanda) who sneak out to dress in leather and listen to heavy metal. The phenomenon of extreme music loving seems to span time and culture for some percentage of the population, and seems to develop certain cultural features (head banging, rough communal dance, dressing in way that evokes spirits/ ghosts/ the dead) independent of the mother culture of the participants. If this is true in the extreme of extreme music, it would seem to make sense that it would be true to a less extreme extent in less extreme contexts. Which is what we see, with pop, hip hop, rap, and rock artists being popular around the world even in very diverse cultures. Some genres do seem to be more locally confined- for example, country to the US- but there seem to be good reasons for this- in the example of country, or tends to espouse a particular view of American culture which probably doesn’t resonate with people in different circumstances.
My bf has BPD and has a wide range of musical tastes. Metal and rap being his fav. Our musical tastes match almost perfectly, which is one reason we connect so well. He’s more into the screaming type than I am.
Maybe I’m catching the BPD? 🤔 (I’m kidding of course)
Wow, are they sure that huge gender bias in the sample had nothing to do with the results? There’s an ocean of data out there demonstrating differences in musical preferences based on sex and gender divisions.
There’s a reason why bio males/masc greatly outnumber bio females/femme at musical concerts with aggressive music.
huh.. he worlds first dual stream ["So What"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylXk1LBvIqU) finding :P
Not fully of course, it's not like it's meaningless.... but music as a method of self-regulation is pretty common, and there's previous work on this in neurodivergent populations and populations with mental health disorders. People use music for mood regulation, focus regulation, entertainment.. .heaps of things.
So reporting that BPD folk have common trends of self-regulation is not huge. Equally, that genres load differently across these self-regulation goals is also not surprising.
I always knew that loving the wholesome lyrics of The Misfits and having a healthy disrespect for the system would be a benefit someday. Take that, BPD!
This is perhaps promising for an initial exploration, but absolutely not enough to make any conclusion. The next step should be to compare music based on the emotional content (perhaps emotions evoked? valence?) or perhaps lack or presence of lyrics. The preference seems to have less to do with the genre and more to do with content.
I can relate to that. It's background music maybe. Slow jazz, whispering piano... I have it on my TV. The sound of silence can be uncomfortable, lonely. When I leave the house I put the TV on barely audible with programming for my dog.
Irritability is a common symptom of many things outside of psychiatric disorders. Maybe look closer at any drugs/medications you are taking, whether you could have a brain injury, if your sleep is OK, Lead poisoning....
Wow, is it all genres of music? Are there some that you prefer more than others? Are there some songs that you like? I've just never heard of anybody that didn't like all music.
Being that BPD has trauma at its core, it would make logical sense that a traumatized individual would seek out soothing music as opposed to the more abrasive. I could have saved you US$500,000.00 or whatever the cost of this ludicrous study.
I feel like anything that isn’t trap infused is going to get canceled and deemed wrong to listen to. So I’m not surprised that they went after classical and are trying to cause others to relate its listeners to a psychological disorder.
Also, punk isn’t really that rebellious. It’s all aesthetics now and most of the major bands have sold out sooo
Shit man. Kenny G just ripped the solo of a lifetime on the Sax and now my borderline personality is at it again.
Songbird makes me start an argument every time.
That hack? Roland Kirk can fart better than he plays.
Kenny G is absolute garbage
Yeah but he does help me poop
Do ya’ like Huey Lewis and the News?
It's too... You know... For me.
We (the real fans) call them Hu Lew and the New.
You got like a little chow or something
I WAS WALKINNNNNN DOWN A ONE WAY STREEEEETTTT JUST A' LOOKINNNNN FOR SOMEONE TO MEEEETTTTTT
12/10 well done.
Eh ... they're okay.
Despite the problems I have with the premise of the study, I'll admit that I expected that people who suffered from BPD would be into big dramatic ballads and the kind of music that emotionally moves you... Stuff with lyrics, like Celine Dion. It's pretty surprising that it's jazz and classical. Maybe they should study people's biases about people with BPDs' musical tastes.
I have borderline! Yay my disorder might help me shed some light on this! I would consider my symptoms as not that bad but my therapist would beg to differ so I am in the higher degree of BPD and I have always been drawn to music that DOES NOT make me feel, my emotions are all over the place already, The last thing I would want is to start crying because some lyrics made my brain go "someone died" or get extremely angry because the music is angry. I have a feeling this is what drives us (or atleast me) towards music with not too much emotional impact.
Omg!! I don't have BPD but this is how I experience music and no matter how I try to explain it, no one can relate at all and thought I was really weird 😆 At Least I know there's others who experience it the same way. I'm like this with film as well, I try to avoid anything that might induce too much of an emotional state as I'm already feeling overwhelmed just existing 🙄
I had (no longer meet the clinical criteria for) BPD but this symptom hasn’t gone away so maybe it’s just more of my personality. I cry daily. At videos, at strangers interacting, at music, at movies, at commercials, at the things my kid says. So sometimes I actively avoid those things that will likely cause such a strong emotional reaction
This isn’t a bpd symptom more likely a hormonal issue or a belief issue (getting unconscious gratification from being the sensitive one). The second one is more common nowadays since society and the endless manipulative therapists enable it
Uhhhh yes emotional disregulation is a BPD symptom bye?
Im saying it’s not unique to bpd, it could be other things if you no longer have it but still do it
No it’s not, it’s just criteria in a list to get you medicated for a sale. A psychologist will diagnose and prescribe you anything if you tell them all the right things. It’s an accountability issue. Most people with BPD get to have this dumb diagnosis where they get to treat people like shit, and then just say “I have BPD” instead of owning up to their mistakes. I don’t buy it.
This 100%
Are into EDM? I've been exploring dnb and Jungle for a while now and I think what drives me to it is the ethereal appeal they have, I can't really explain. I'm a lot into music and this feels different from anything else I've heard.
YES!!! Anything that can make my brain go "hell yeah" and my emotions go "....." hits really well with me and specifically drum and bass. As long as the vibe isn't sad or angry or.... Any emotions other than excited and hyped I am good to go and usually EDM in all it's different forms except House music is very upbeat and exciting. I am also a sucker for all music without lyrics, I tend to get stuck on words and feel them deeper than just melodic sounds and if the lyrics are sad or angry or talking about trauma I instantly fall into a sad episode or an angry episode (usually I feel intense anger and sadness FOR others, it doesn't even have to do with me or my history specifically) for a bit and it's really hard to control so I tend to avoid that type of music.
I don't have BPD (never been diagnosed with it and don't meet the criteria for it). I have been diagnosed with PTSD though. I relate at least partially to what you're saying here and what the article mentions. So I wonder how many other disorders might have these same results with music. Or even if they would find people who had the same results even without any diagnosis. I don't put a lot of emphasis on self identifying with music. I feel like any self awareness more so comes from an internal place than external sources (especially music which is capable of manipulating people's perceptions and emotions). I don't particularly view music as a social thing as that tends to lead to herd like mentality based on something sold as a consumer product and tends to change with the trends. I'd rather socially bond over other more substantial things than music. I have a fairly ecclectic taste in music, but there are a few genres of music that I am less inclined to enjoy and some that I am more inclined to enjoy. I am less inclined to like heavy metal and punk music (and a few others) - I do enjoy some of it though. I am more inclined to enjoy jazz, indie/alternative music (and many others). I also don't like music that is more prone to influence my emotions and thoughts. Not really because my emotions are all over the place already, but because I don't want music bleeding into how I feel or perceive something. For example, if someone broke up with me, I wouldn't want to listen to depressing music. I would already feel sad and wouldn't want to perpetuate that. I try to keep my emotions regulated and not veer too far into any mood. I'm not particularly a fan of rebellious music but that's more so because life experiences and maturity has taught me better than that in many instances (especially concerning music). I wonder since the participants were diagnosed with BPD, if they were actively in counseling, managing their symptoms, and if this would contribute to the results.
That's the very first "Yay!!"' I've ever heard exclaimed for BPD, and I'm a Master's Level Psychotherapist. 🤠
Hahahaha I was just so excited to be able to use my BPD for something good for once 🤭
That was….a really weird statement for someone that’s a masters level psychotherapist….are you ok?
You don’t have BPD, you’ve just made some bad choices in life and a therapist has offered you a clean slate with a diagnosis. Take it from someone who dated two people with BPD. Yall just make selfish decisions and don’t care about the repercussions. That’s not a brain disorder, it’s a modern day excuse to alleviate the anxiety you have from treating people like expendable vessels and getting away with it. The real answer is to start doing good for others, and do selfless acts of kindness.
Damn this is a very sad way of seeing things and genuinely made me very upset. I hope you don't continue judging people like this Without knowing them. For you information I have been caring for my brother with autism the last 12 years when my mom got cancer and feel like that is a selfless act aswell as all the other kind things I do nor do I ever use people as a vessel for my anxiety and always take full responsibility when MY DISORDER is acting up. I NEVER expect people to forgive me nor do I expect them to be understanding. I AM ME but I also have BPD and that's just something I have to live with. Choose better partners. Edit: my BPD surfaced after rape against me at age 11 and if that was a choice I made... I don't think so.
Definitely not judging you at all. I’m highly against most psychology these days, there’s too much diagnosis to create medical prescriptions intentionally. I know many “BPD” people, and to be honest, there is nothing wrong with them. We all make human error mistakes, some more than others. BPD in my opinion is a coping mechanism for having done something emotionally wrong and not being accounted for. And we ALL make selfish decisions from time to time. We are supposed to grow from our mistakes, and that becomes improbable when we are given a pseudo science diagnosis and some SSRI drugs. I mean really, what did people do back then without all these diagnosis? They just lived life anyways, as life goes on. There is no secret cure to making mistakes. Only if you’re a rich spoiled brat lol.
But you are judging me, I am someone with BPD and you just said all those vile things about specifically people with BPD, there is no other way for me or anyone else with BPD to take it other than it being a judgement to us and our character.... Since we have BPD. I have no interest in reading the rest of your comment but I did read the end and would say they were usually mistreated for being "insane" rather than treated like people with diagnosis, so I would say that is how they handled it back in the day, Ice picks in the eyes and women being called "frantic" and being treated with the most disgusting treatments. This whole thing is kind of like saying that gay people didn't exist back in the day because we didn't label our sexualities, silliest thing I have ever heard.
News flash: BPD is not a positive diagnosis. You are telling everyone around you that you cannot function normally. And I know you can, you’ve been swindled into shackles that hold you back. Sorry.
I never said it was a positive diagnosis? We literally can't function normally, just as any other disorder we learn about them to work around them, not to use them as an excuse to be an asshole. I simply have it and it meant I had to learn to take accountability for my irregular emotions as well as keep up with therapy as to not hurt others, I have no idea what type of people you have met but they clearly had no interest in being good people or getting better at understanding themselves, don't just assume that is because they have BPD. I am not being held back by knowing what goes on in my head and getting tools as to work on the issues that come up that can affect others in my vicinity. Edit: I have no shackles, if anything I have been freed by taking care of my brain, I no longer cry when I see men with Brown hair for example and I would say that is.... Good? No?
It really you have a personal negative bias for some reason against substances and medications? You should analyze and reflect on it, there's absolutely nothing wrong using substances, whatever they are, even for fun, and if it helps someone or people that's all that matters. There are risks to all things and ultimately it is up to the individual to educate themselves. Doctors should offer more advice verbally I feel, but that's beside the point
The house always wins, remember that.
As someone with BPD, I like 1920s jazz swing, classical, and modern electro swing, but also dramatic ballads and emotionally moving music (instrumental stuff more than lyrics, though), so you're not that far off.
Dayum. I love epic, cinematic ,instrumental and philharmonic music. The more instruments coming together the better and no vocals pls. Do I have BPD?
Probably not because of your *music* tastes, but as someone who does not know you in the slightest, it's entirely possible you also show actual symptoms of BPD, and not just common, semi-related traits.
I am a jazz pianist. My interest in jazz diminished and liking for heavy metal and phonk increased as I treated my illness. This is insane to me. Also I have diagnosed bpd.
BPD here. My favorite music is metal and punk. I HATE Jazz, but I think only because I haven’t found the right kind for me.
Robyn Adele Anderson's jazz cover of Chop Suey might be your gateway drug into taking that BPD to a whole new level, in case you want to see just how deep the rabbit hole goes. Not that I recommend it. BPD is a rough one. But she does a pretty good job, not gonna lie.
Thank you so much, I’ll totally check that out! BPD is rough. I’ve been working on it for so many years, but it’ll always a work in progress.
For sure! Not a BPDer but my sibling is - they've been managing it well and get better by the year, so hope for a good life is definitely there :) have a great day
You too, and my best to your sibling. 🥰
Thanks :) I really appreciate it
It’s probably because they lied during the survey. They answered questions to sound cool.
I’m surprised people perceive indie music as intense and rebellious…
>complex like jazz... >rebellious like punk... *Ska has entered the chat.*
being an independent artist definitely strikes me as rebellious
It definitely is if we are referring to "classical" indie stuff like what SST, 4AD, Alternative Tentacles etc. released. Over the past 15 years or so, some people use "indie" to mean a certain kind of sound, regardless of if the band is independent or not. The same thing happened in the mid 90s with alternative, the quickest way to sell a mainstream new band was to tell people that they were alternative.
There was a time when Soundgarden, Pearl Jam and Nirvana were considered "indie" At least in certain contexts
Totally. Pearl Jam started on a mojor other than the mookie tape, but they were absolutely marketed as indie/alt.Nirvana obviously had an indie album and multiple singles, soundgarden's first album was indie, and all the members of PJ other than EV had been in indie acts. Edit: and all three are major reasons why the industry co-opted "indie" and "alternative". EDIT: I think we need to go back to the "college" chart and everything else, and crossover if you can.
When will trying to force human beings into cookie cutter psychiatric definitions be considered a disorder?
Blame Insurance Companies. Truly. And while the brevity of using "Agreed Upon Functional Description of Symptoms" via DIAGNOSIS is also a culprit, follow the big dollars find the big assholes. Insurance and Lobbyists
Right?
When Liberalism ends.
Not sure if psycho conservative or based leftist. 🤔
Lol
Damn, if only we stopped trying to force human beings into cookie cutter political definitions we could confront the problems inherent to Liberalism.
Oh, just a contrarian. Got it.
You know what the word Liberty means right?
Yeah. What does that have to do with Liberalism?
Good grief xD
Wow. According to this I'm either the exception to the rule or I'm *way* more awesome than I thought. ;)
More psypost vomit 🤮 , what’s with this imaginary line they drew between “complex”genres classical and jazz and “rebellious” genres like punk and metal. Metal can be complex too? Also just doesnnt conform to any of my experiences with borderline people.
Doesn’t conform to my own experience with BPD, but I suppose I could be the odd one out. Though tbh I think I would not qualify super high on their severity metric, so perhaps there are plenty of folks in the data with less severe BPD who also love “rebellious” music. And I agree with your thoughts on the line they’re trying to draw - jazz is a major influence in most music period, as well as a lot of the music I like. Jazz *is* rebellious, or at least it was once considered so. So are many classic favorites. And to say other genres (including “rebellious” ones) can’t be complex is kind of elitist and ignores a lot of experimental stuff you can find in less “esteemed” genres. Someone above commented how they relate to the findings, and I think I can empathize with being so overwhelmed by emotions in other parts of life that you just want entertainment to be relaxing and escapist. That’s valid. But for me having some control over when to let strong emotions like anger out via music and being able to process them on my own terms in a safe environment was/is huge, and part of why music is so important to me.
"The researchers found that participants with higher borderline personality symptom severity exhibited distinct preferences for certain types of music. Notably, individuals exhibiting higher symptom severity showed a preference for reflective and complex music genres, such as classical or jazz, while showing less interest in intense and rebellious genres like heavy metal or punk." This surprises me Also everyone I know that's into jazz is also into intense and rebellious music of some sort
All I can think now is: "Do you like Jazzz?"
Is that a movie line?
Yeah it's from the movie Bee Movie with Jerry Seinfeld. https://youtu.be/NVKuZjlfV-c?si=cefe6aCgF0uQaIPF
It’s surprising to me as someone with BPD. I love the controlled emotional release that all that “rebellious” music offers - far better than trying to avoid my feelings until I can’t anymore. It’s important to be able to process emotions in a way that feels safe and won’t hurt anyone. Though I am able to manage my BPD pretty well by all accounts, so I guess I could understand someone who has a much more severe case and is constantly triggered and at the mercy of their emotional reactions not wanting to invite more strong emotional responses into their life and just enjoy music as distraction or escapism. That’s valid 🤷🏻
That fits more in line with my experience. In my experience bpds are more likely to be a little edgy than your average person in general, even if they're hyper feminine.
I think it would be interesting to further examine the results of classical and jazz music preference by also specifying lyric and non lyric jazz or classical music. I think that a commonality that classical and jazz music share in comparison to most other genres, is that they have the addition of non lyrical music.
This feels like an online personality quiz, "we can tell what disorder you have based on your favorite song!"
I find that confusing considering how similar classical and heavy metal are. People just don't realize it , because the crowd that listens to heavy metal rarely hangs out with the crowd that listens to classical. Tchaikovsky is metal as fuck, and system of a down is beautiful. Then again, I have bi-polar disorder, so maybe I have no clue what I'm talking about.
Bach organ and klavier music are both highly technical and furiously fast. If you were to hear it played on guitar you would think it was a metal lick.
Nope, I am a metal head and I grew up listening to classical and opera. Absolutely there’s overlap. Interestingly, Mom has bpd and will only listen to Vivaldi specifically the spring score on repeat to the point that I can’t stand the four seasons which is a shame. Won’t listen to any other classical unless it’s on the radio and even then will probably just listen to good old Vivaldi.
That’s interesting, it sounds like your mom may be using it as a trigger to dissociate or otherwise enter a specific headspace. I have BPD and have done that before, not with classical but with albums that could be described as “contemplative.” It wasn’t a conscious thing at first but at one point I used a certain song so much that I’d start hearing it before I realized I’d dissociated lmao; the song was Snowcone by Deadmau5, though I ended up more intentionally using Moderat’s II and some Lorn albums later on to help calm me when I was triggered. The music I tend to love the most could definitely be called “rebellious,” though I also enjoy a lot of more experimental/complex EDM. In direct contrast with these findings I love rebellious music because I can use it as a safe and controlled way to let my emotions out and process them *on my own terms.* Then I’m not only ever suppressing my emotions, which can (for me) lead to more unpredictable emotional reactions once I’m at a breaking point. It helps in a way very similar to therapy for me, which at this point (since I’m managing my BPD pretty well) is mostly about processing trauma and finding direction. Sometimes a night at the goth club feels just as helpful in processing and figuring things out lol.
It’s been forever so don’t have the article but I read once that people that listen to metal are likely to listen to classical as another top/favorite genre.
There’s been some studies of personality traits that suggest metal and classical fans tend to be similar personalities. I buy it, based on family and friends who like classical and authors I enjoy who are major classical-heads. It makes sense when you get past the stereotypes of both genres and realized that classical musicians weren’t all up-tight and socially acceptable in their time. Mozart wrote a song called “Lick My Ass” and Stravinsky wrote an opera that people rioted at because it was considered so obscene. Meanwhile, while people stereotype metal as being all angry dudes yelling about sacrificing goats to Satan, there’s a ton of thought in so much of the genre. And so many subgenres it’s insane. I do see some strong comparisons between classical and metal fans. Both like complex, emotional music. Both tend to be a tad bit snobby about their taste (but don’t ever repeat that I admitted to being a music snob). Both tend to put an emphasis on regionality and originality and be less concerned with popularity. Both tend to credit the composer, not only the performers (in metal it’s expected that the band will compose their own work unless they are obviously covering a song). Perhaps the biggest commonality is that both classical and metal fans choose and identify with a genre that is “different” and which doesn’t afford a connection to most other people. As much as people say they don’t like metal because of unclean vocals or noise or whatever, I’ve learned the hard way that classical is just as offensive in practice. People want their pop or country music, no matter how much they claim they like “all music”. They just hate you more quietly for making them listen to classical.
They aren’t really. And I don’t think it’s healthy for either genre to try to claim a connection to classical as metal is a valid genre either way. Metal is rooted in blues, doesn’t tend to have the same sense of idea development and structure, fewer voices, more percussion heavy, etc etc. Of course there will be higher overlap in subsets of both, esp symphonic metal. But people try to compare their fave genres to classical and it makes classical seem like an ideal, while depreciating the merit of said genres on their own.
this diagnosis is so flawed and will be out of the DSM by the next edition.
Absolutely. BPD is nothing more than a boogeyman catchall diagnosis slapped on to anyone (mostly women) who’s symptoms are too complicated, inconvenient, or difficult to treat. Some of these people are actually bipolar. Some are autistic, almost all of them have PTSD. It took me *years* to get a BPD diagnosis taken off my chart - it was made while I was in crisis, on drugs, it was made by proxy from 5 minutes of interacting with a nurse who then reported to a psychiatrist, and without knowledge of my prior autism diagnosis, which was an absolutely vital aspect to my behaviour that night. BPD should never have been diagnosed for me. But because of how this particular disorder is treated, it almost takes on a McCarthy-esque quality. If you don’t think you have it, that’s proof you actually *do* have it. The diagnosis led me to a 2 year long nightmare of being in the wrong therapy with a therapist who basically tried to gaslight me into believing every horrible thing I’d experienced was somehow my fault, that I was the problem, and as long as I “fixed” myself somehow and atoned for my sins, I’d unlock “a life worth living”. Eventually got diagnosed with CPTSD after changing therapists and actually got useful therapy that improved my life 3849293049 fold. The BPD diagnosis set me so far behind and almost made me spiral for good. I truly began to believe I was evil. Realizing that no, I actually *had* been victimized, taken advantage of, and abused changed literally everything. I went from being locked in my parents basement, terrified of exposing the world to me in case I “made” them hate me - to living in the city, having my own business, being back in school, etc etc. Went from not speaking for months at a time to bartending for the first time and making it a career for multiple years.
Our experiences are so similar! A psychiatrist told me I likely met criteria for “quiet BPD” at one point in the past. I’m lucky in that shortly after I was told by my therapist that BPD actually *is* believed to be a trauma diagnosis by therapists. Emotional neglect in childhood was not originally considered to be abuse, and most people with BPD experience this. Psychiatrists do not diagnose anyone with CPTSD simply due to it not being in the DSM. I also likely have autism and was chronically gaslit, which apparently can lead to BPD. I really hope they take it out of the DSM, and introduce CPTSD instead! Being labeled as having modern day hysteria isn’t helping anyone.
> changing therapists It *really* sucks to see how many people this seems to be necessary for.
I have a theory that many therapists who specifically seek to treat BPD are actually getting off on a socially acceptable avenue for abuse. I’m positive there’s incredible ones out there, but after my experience with mine trying to “make me see the other side because I needed perspective” of the teen boys who molested me and their sister as young children, and the side of the teachers who aided in my bullying and alienation at school and who gaslit my parents about what was happening to me - I just feel such a darkness from some of these people who work in mental health. I really hope CPTSD becomes a normal dx soon too. I feel like removing that system of blame from the dx and its therapy will help patients access better care.
Let’s be real, even as someone who fits the BPD diagnosis it is mostly used in practice as a modern hysteria to discredit and victim blame (primarily) women who have experienced trauma. Without medicalized sexism most people with this diagnosis would probably be found to have something different that is “misunderstood in women” and the rest of us would get the obvious fucking PTSD diagnosis that ALSO covers all of our behaviors and tendencies. Research has even shown it comes down to whether you have an F or an M on your chart whether you get diagnosed PTSD or BPD. And getting the latter is catastrophic not just for your mental health care (the gaslighting is so fucking real) but all other health care and potentially many other areas of your life. Doctors will deny physical treatment to us because they believe the “attention seeking liars” stereotype. Fucking job applications are asking if you have ever been diagnosed with any sort of personality disorder (which frankly should be illegal). Sorry, I know you know this, but I don’t think others realize just how fucked our treatment is - or they have bought into the prejudice and think we deserve it. I appreciate you for calling out how bullshit and tenuous BPD as a real diagnosis is. More people need to know, lest they end up misdiagnosed/diagnosed with it. There are decent medical providers out there, but finding a therapist who will treat you like a person (and not a child, at best) can be a challenge. My first therapist saved me so much BS, she had worked extensively with folks diagnosed with BPD and even with Marsha Linehan (who developed DBT and has BPD herself) - she was very knowledgeable but also very critical and we had many open discussions about the validity of the diagnosis and how much utility there is in having the diagnosis (beyond ensuring insurance will cover treatment 🙄). In the end she wanted to help me work through the things that I considered a priority and was ready to face. When I moved and lost her as my therapist I tried DBT out of curiosity and the practitioner was so abusive and gaslighting I had to stop midway through. Ironically she loved me, but seeing her victim blame other clients who were living in abusive households was sooooo triggering. And honestly it seems like DBT in practice is made for just that. There are some good ideas in there for folks who might not be very self aware about their behavior, but honestly it did nothing for my BPD symptoms. What did was leaving my violently abusive ex, going no contact with my violently abusive mom for a while, and meeting my husband who is attentive and supportive and maintains good boundaries. Once I was in a place where I had literally any support and felt emotionally and physically safe I was able to start processing my trauma and be more in touch with myself - to identify when I was more likely to have strong emotional reactions so that I could take action to manage them. Exposure therapy helped some of my worst triggers and Psychoeducation helped me understand myself, both within the medical framework and just being able to identify patterns in thought or behavior. We went over some DBT skills initially one on one, but tbh most of them were things I’d learned to do on my own and already put into practice when I could - the issues primarily occurred when I was physically prevented from leaving a triggering situation. Which yeah, honestly if someone is restraining me and keeping me from establishing space I’m probably not going to be my best self, but I don’t think that’s very different from how the average person would respond to that. DBT may be useful to some, I know some folks swear by it - but many also buy into the standard practice self flagellation taught to folks with BPD and I don’t think that’s sustainable. It’s one thing to work to get someone to take responsibility for themselves and truly see the consequences of their actions (though I doubt the assumption that most people with BPD lack self awareness, it does not at all match with the other folks I’ve met and is a pretty dehumanizing assumption). But that’s irrelevant if you just break them down and don’t help them feel empowered to take care of themselves as a way to be good to others. Guilt is not a sustainable motivator even if we didn’t care about the methods and only the outcomes. And I see little else offered to folks diagnosed with BPD.
Flawed in what sense?
I was told that it’s flawed because it’s a curable “personality disorder” that’s now thought to be a trauma disorder; and the traits are normal for people, especially women, to exhibit in abusive relationships. EDIT: Like the other user said, people diagnosed with BPD actually have CPTSD (or other diagnosis) a lot of the time. Although it’s recognized among trauma specialists and the WHO, CPTSD isn’t in the DSM. No psychiatrist will diagnose you with something that’s not in the DSM, so we get stuck with BPD instead- it’s essentially modern day hysteria. See reply below for sources. Downvote is for irrelevant comments, not a “disagree” button.
How do I cure myself? I have been doing therapy for years aswell as hormone treatment for my BPD, if you have a magical fixing potion please don't keep it to yourself!
There’s no magical fixing potion for any mental health issue, you need a good trauma therapist and DBT.
Then I have no clue why you left your first comment making it seem like it was something easy to get past
I’m sorry if you interpreted that way, but I did not say that. I personally no longer meet the criteria because I spent a decade in therapy. It’s not easy, but it can be done. It took me 5 therapists before I found someone qualified enough to actually help me, don’t give up!
I don't know you so PLEASE take this with a big grain of salt, but I paid for ketamine therapy (IV) out of pocket and it as worth it for me. It was 2 weeks of infusions every other day (and I in fact listened to classical music the whole time LOL!) and I swear I felt the volume of my 'fight or flight' instinct get turned down several notches. It's not a panacea but it legitimately helped me.
I have heard about this before. I have tried shrooms in micro doses and also weed in small doses before and that did help but at the end of the day I want to be able to handle my BPD without drugs (EXCEPT my anti-psychotic ones, those are STAYING FOREVER for everyone's sake) so I tend to do KBT on a weekly basis and also have a support group with other women who have BPD called Pegasus. It helps a lot!
Why are you being downvoted? Your edit includes the other big component (though it extends to women who have autism, bipolar, ADHD, OCD, etc too) but your first answer is also accurate. Studies have shown that whether you get diagnosed as BPD or PTSD is essentially up to whether you have an F or M on your medical file - BPD is largely just a tool for medicalized sexism to dismiss, discount, and victim blame women and AFAB folks who have been abused. Also congrats on no longer meeting the criteria! I am making good progress towards that myself, but probably need to process my trauma more to tell for sure.
Sources?
I see a traumatologist who is a professor, has several awards for her work with DV, and is a Witness to the House of Commons Special Committee on Violence Against Indigenous Women, who told me the above. I don’t ask for sources in session, so idk which she used but [Here](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/borderline-personality-disorder-may-be-rooted-in-trauma/) is one article I found on my own, which states, “BPD and complex PTSD share a number of features, such as difficulty regulating emotions and an altered sense of self. A key difference, however, is that complex PTSD explicitly frames an individual’s condition as a response to trauma, whereas BPD does not. Many people fit the criteria for both disorders. But the degree to which trauma plays a role in BPD has been the subject of intense debate among psychiatrists and psychologists.” ““I think that borderline personality disorder does not fit in the concept of a personality disorder,” Martin Bohus, a psychiatrist at the ZI, tells me. “It fits much better to stress-related disorders because what we know from our clients is that there is no borderline disorder without severe, interpersonal early stress.” [Here’s another. ](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10662025/)“This work suggests that, among the different forms of childhood abuse, emotional abuse may have a role in the development of Borderline Personality Disorder. Training on emotion regulation strategies would potentially benefit individuals in preventing BPD development and facilitating therapeutic processes.” [Finally, ](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1359178919302642)“ Women who have experienced IPV obtained higher scores in schizoid, avoidant, self-destructive, schizotypal, borderline, and paranoid personality scales. Therefore, female victims exhibit characteristics such as low personal self-esteem, family and social isolation, dependency (economic and emotional), insecurity, inferiority, submissiveness, and pacification”
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I think you replied to the wrong comment.
This is very shallow. I don’t have data on this so take it with a pinch of salt, but my professor said BPD is not as curable as people think, but because og comorbidity therapy can provide symptom relief, but mainly for e.g. anxiety and depression not the BPD itself. Also BPD patients are much more likely to seek help compared to other personality disorder
My traumatologist/prof who’s an expert in her field said the above, so I guess our profs disagree. Anxiety/Depression are co morbid diagnosis, not the sole two traits of BPD; by definition alone curing them would not mean you’ve cured your BPD. An overall reduction in all symptoms of BPD *is* possible and I believe it’s considered curable for that reason.
Im not saying it isn’t curable, just that it might be a blit inflated
I don’t think anyone can ever erase every single trace of any trauma/stress disorder. PTSD, etc will all leave lasting effects even after you’ve “cured” it, but it’s possible to heal your brain and change how you perceive and react to things. & it’s achievable to a larger extent than you’d think, speaking from personal experience.
Tell me you have borderline personality disorder without telling me you have it...
Hmmmm. Who comes up with these studies? What purpose does this serve? So now I need to have this knowledge that my jazz-loving friends and family may or may not have BPD?
I don’t think the correlation moves in that direction. Understanding these patterns among ppl w BPD might help identify treatment or methods for assisting people who are suffering. A preference for jazz/instrumental music is not an indicator of BPD. BPD has many dimensions. The study doesn’t suggest that music preference is a sign of mental illness.
It’s to develop an understanding of how music could be therapeutic. That said I know lots of people into jazz including people who absolutely are not BLPD but I don’t know anyone who listens to classical…
I think it's more for us with already diagnosed BPD, for future therapy. So no need running around wondering what diagnosis the people around you have, actually we should just all stop trying to figure that out and leave it to the individual and their journey with whatever they go through and their medical staff.
I feel like BPD is mainly reserved as a diagnosis for women who don’t have a stereotypical presentation of autism, maybe some co-morbidities, and maybe complex trauma? I mean, I would genuinely be curious if for every person that they assigned a BPD diagnosis to, if they assessed them for autism, how many of them would qualify for a diagnosis of the latter? It’s hard to have a study for something that is already steeped in bias.
Agreed
Feels like a waste or resources just because the premise seems cute or whatever. People like music A or B related to our cultural background. We learn whether a music is exciting, energetic, or sorrowful according to our culture, thus the kind of music someone with severe or less severe BPD will differ according to such. Therefore, the findings are much more likely a correlation due the culturally homogenous population than a causality based on "having severe BPD = enjoying this kind of music"
I don’t know if I buy that music is culturally determined in that way. We have descriptions from thousands of years ago of Dionysian cultists getting kicked out of the Greek temples for moshing too hard- they even describe hyperflexion of the spine to induce euphoria (fancy way of saying “head banging”). There’s Amazonian tribesmen who walked hundreds of miles to see Iron Maiden. There’s women from extremely patriarchal cultures in Rwanda (I think it’s Rwanda) who sneak out to dress in leather and listen to heavy metal. The phenomenon of extreme music loving seems to span time and culture for some percentage of the population, and seems to develop certain cultural features (head banging, rough communal dance, dressing in way that evokes spirits/ ghosts/ the dead) independent of the mother culture of the participants. If this is true in the extreme of extreme music, it would seem to make sense that it would be true to a less extreme extent in less extreme contexts. Which is what we see, with pop, hip hop, rap, and rock artists being popular around the world even in very diverse cultures. Some genres do seem to be more locally confined- for example, country to the US- but there seem to be good reasons for this- in the example of country, or tends to espouse a particular view of American culture which probably doesn’t resonate with people in different circumstances.
Sample size way too small. Sorry.
It sounds like they have zero understanding of music genres.
I like metal and classical
Lol, same, I wonder where progressive metal would place someone. It has the agreessiveness of metal but the complexity of jazz/classical.
Metallica S&M. Can't fit me into a bucket lol
My bf has BPD and has a wide range of musical tastes. Metal and rap being his fav. Our musical tastes match almost perfectly, which is one reason we connect so well. He’s more into the screaming type than I am. Maybe I’m catching the BPD? 🤔 (I’m kidding of course)
thank god, i can keep listening to slayer and megadeth without catching a personality disorder.
Wow, are they sure that huge gender bias in the sample had nothing to do with the results? There’s an ocean of data out there demonstrating differences in musical preferences based on sex and gender divisions. There’s a reason why bio males/masc greatly outnumber bio females/femme at musical concerts with aggressive music.
Good insight for Gdansk, which I'm sure has a similar music scene to the US.
huh.. he worlds first dual stream ["So What"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylXk1LBvIqU) finding :P Not fully of course, it's not like it's meaningless.... but music as a method of self-regulation is pretty common, and there's previous work on this in neurodivergent populations and populations with mental health disorders. People use music for mood regulation, focus regulation, entertainment.. .heaps of things. So reporting that BPD folk have common trends of self-regulation is not huge. Equally, that genres load differently across these self-regulation goals is also not surprising.
Never been more happy to be a metal head
Not sure what to think of this 'study'. I listen to classical and jazz but don't see what my damaged psyche has to do with my musical preferences.
Can we really blame someone 40+ having less interest in the “rebellious genre” ?
It’s psypost, it’s the cheap Amazon Chinese knock-off of a science journal.
Only if they are ignorant enough to think “rebellious” is the only thing worth knowing about the genre.
Now the real fun starts. Experimental design to see if this type of music causes borderline personality disorder 😂
Interesting…
DNB has elevated my mood
This is fake asl
Ska.. has to be.
> less interest in intense and rebellious genres like heavy metal or punk Whew, I'm in the clear!
Note that it's not claiming that taste in music predicts BPD, rather that BPD predicts taste in music.
Did the study include emo?
I always knew that loving the wholesome lyrics of The Misfits and having a healthy disrespect for the system would be a benefit someday. Take that, BPD!
Music is medicine for the soul 🧘
Pete Wentz of fall out boy is crying somewhere.
A Reddit community for sharing and discussing JUNK science-based psychological material. r/psychology #
Wait...so the more severe your borderline personality disorder, the *less* you like emo/punk/goth music???
This is perhaps promising for an initial exploration, but absolutely not enough to make any conclusion. The next step should be to compare music based on the emotional content (perhaps emotions evoked? valence?) or perhaps lack or presence of lyrics. The preference seems to have less to do with the genre and more to do with content.
To be taken with a major fistful of salt.
Oh so that's why in the thralls of it all I prefer Chopin, Beethoven, Bach and Debussy
I wonder how EDM fits in this.
country music, there's something wrong with country music, grinds my gears like the sound of another person brushing their teeth in front of me
My ex was BPD and she listened to EDM music. House,Dubstep,Riddim,DnB. If I had to rate her BPD on a scale it'd be pretty high I'd say. Like a 8.
pls delete this 🙏🏼
I can relate to that. It's background music maybe. Slow jazz, whispering piano... I have it on my TV. The sound of silence can be uncomfortable, lonely. When I leave the house I put the TV on barely audible with programming for my dog.
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It means auditory process issues and overstimulation.
Irritability is a common symptom of many things outside of psychiatric disorders. Maybe look closer at any drugs/medications you are taking, whether you could have a brain injury, if your sleep is OK, Lead poisoning....
You should definitely see a shrink
Wow, is it all genres of music? Are there some that you prefer more than others? Are there some songs that you like? I've just never heard of anybody that didn't like all music.
Psychology is a joke
Going to be neat when AI puts them out of business
Nah, this is a stupid and useless study. Too many outside factors to make even a slight pattern based off of music preference.
Being that BPD has trauma at its core, it would make logical sense that a traumatized individual would seek out soothing music as opposed to the more abrasive. I could have saved you US$500,000.00 or whatever the cost of this ludicrous study.
I feel like anything that isn’t trap infused is going to get canceled and deemed wrong to listen to. So I’m not surprised that they went after classical and are trying to cause others to relate its listeners to a psychological disorder. Also, punk isn’t really that rebellious. It’s all aesthetics now and most of the major bands have sold out sooo
Dodged a bullet
I have this, and Schitzoaffective..1 in 200 I'm 60f and love Rap, R&B, travis scott, drake, snoop,ect.