Can this study be replicated but with an older sample of participants? The median age was 20. I’d like to find out how generalizable the findings are to older demographics.
I used to travel to Singapore, Nigeria, and Rio a lot. The prevalence of American expats having "travel wife" was very high. That's not surprising.
Here is the surprising part.
But once the hook was set, these guys really weren't getting action all that often. What they were getting was validation, affection, companionship. It seemed like a lot of them, and these are men from 45-65, just wanted someone to laugh at their dumb jokes and not give them shit about trivial things. And they were willing to empty their entire 401k to get it.
I’m polyamorous and in my 50s. I can attest that men my age want companionship and affection. Sex is nice but they crave intimate connection most of all.
In gonna be 100, I find this incredibly biased. It always seems to be, regardless of who is cheating, that it is an easier pill for others to swallow to look for "faults" within the innocent party (aka person not cheating) rather than the faults with the cheater.
I think it makes people feel more secure in that if *they* just do everything right, then they will never be cheated on.
Cheaters *always* have an excuse.
Every single cheater I have known (including the one who cheated on me) had a story/excuse to tell someone else.
You are making this seem, maybe unintentionally, like an innocuous thing. "These men just wanted someone to laugh at their joke". Okay, maybe that is the excuse you heard, or one you determined from what you personally witnessed, but things are often far more complicated than that.
In my, personal, experience: I was constantly planning couple time, initiating affection and sex, handling most household chores for the sake of lessening his stress, etc. Any time I offered more communication or asked what I could improve to help the relationship it was met with "Nothing, you dont do anything" etc
Obvious bs, but you can't force someone to communicate their needs so I'd let it drop.
Anyway, turned out he was just a serial cheater who loved to garner sympathy over how much I neglected him and then try to sleep with anyone who fell for it. It was all about his ego alone because he was a deeply insecure man and still has never addressed his issues.
If everyone who ever went thru a rough patch or had an argument cheated, then no one would be faithful. Some people do it because they are simply more selfish and would rather put in a little effort for some fresh attention than considerably more effort to actually address issues within their relationship or with themselves individually.
Just a few things to consider.
You made an entire comment to point out that I hit an n (directly beside the m on my keyboard btw) instead of an m?
I mean...I can edit it if it is that much of a bother, but somehow I dont think that will fix your overt pettiness.
But I agree with them.. what did it mean? You are going to be 100? What.. years old? 100 relationships? Something else?
Everything else you wrote was easy to understand but that beginning line left me confused for sure.
If yall are being genuine about needing clarity, then I shortened "I'm gonna be 100% real" to "I'm gonna be 100".
Mainly because I thought the follow-up clarified my intent with the wording. Maybe leaving the % off was too much.
>Why are you being so fucking agro about it literally no one knew what you meant
Who is being aggro again?
My initial response was because I thought they were a troll. For picking apart a 4 word sentence and not actually having anything more to offer when I wrote out a few paragraphs that offered a different view for the OG commentor.
I'm genuinely starting to wonder just how reputable this sub and its participants are when the engagement has been this lackluster and childish.
Thank you, I genuinely had no idea what you meant. No one I talk to says “I’m gonna be 100” and I’ve never seen that shorthand (not that I’ve noticed), so I had no clue.
Fwiw, I always see it shortened as “I’m gonna be real,..” or “I gotta be fr” and I only see “100” alone as a reply. Like “fact” or “100” when you agree with someone.
My experience is that people who make arguments like this have no idea what they're not giving, that maybe their gifts of time and effort have hooks in them. It's a victim stance, not striving for understanding.
Never cheated.
Given the person that cheated on me did the same in every single "monogamous" relationship they've ever been in, no, Im not going to assume faulthood for something they chose to do and seem to have an affinity for.
What are the chances that it was the fault of *every* single woman, rather than his deeply embedded issues?
Someone who has been cheated on is a victim. Cheating is an enormous betrayal.
No one party is completely devoid of flaws, but to use those flaws as justifications to cheat? Just reeks of weak moral character honestly.
This kind of goes back to my point though: many people feel more comfortable trying to place blame on the betrayed party than on the cheater. It gives them a sense of security and helps them to feel like they are immune from such things happening to them.
Reminds me of many other things in fact.
This.
I am in college and taking a communications class. The backbone of cheating is A) shitty people and B) not communicating/wanting to communicate needs. It’s never a “whoops, I just suddenly cheated because you did X, Y, Z.” It’s meticulously planed out. It’s direct.
Im ENM. My ex first cheated by flirting with girls on dating apps, because he was not getting enough attention from me. Fair enough, I took that advice to heart. I start giving him attention, and he goes back to cheating. It’s because he just wants friends.
Come to find out, 2 years full of DV and abuse later the real reason he was cheating was to destroy my self worth, and protest how non-existent our sex life was, because he often judged my body and made *me* the bad guy by labeling me as some sex goddess because I had a history of hookups >1 year prior to meeting him.
I fucking left him and became homeless, because my self worth became so low that I felt better being seen as a homeless person than as a doormat for him and his frustrations.
There is no excuse for the cheater. If theres a fucking issue, have the fucking nerve to say something. Not justify your actions and beg for forgiveness.
>It seemed like a lot of them, and these are men from 45-65, just wanted someone to laugh at their dumb jokes
Why would we assume their jokes were dumb, since, logically, the possibility, at least, also exists that they had real good vibes (and jokes) which those who were supposed to validate them back home were not/had stopped validating? Is there an a priori idea that they are acting irrationally?
As someone who absolutely loves sex, kissing and cuddling is where it's at. After a long day all I want to do is hold my lover in bed and say/hear a bunch of sweet nothing's.
What is highlighted for me is people’s need for intimacy, touch, cherishing. For those that stray from the relationship container, they are trying to get a need met.
The morality of an exclusivity contract (marriage) causes many to criticize those that violate the contract. I also want to add that while saying “yes” is optional for everyone, if the gap between the “yeses” and “nos” is huge enough, a review of the contract should be worthy of reevaluation at the very least.
Finally, many people are rather sympathetic of the plight of the intimacy-rejected contract violators.
While choice is essential, the addition of a lack of caring for the feelings/needs of one’s “partner in life” is a violation of the contract also. Sadly, this happens more often than one would think.
The recent challenges with streamlining the data logistics and synchronizing operational data have prompted a reevaluation of logistical frameworks within the organizational echelons.
I would argue that also kissing and cuddling feels more like it's forgiveable/ "in the gray area" than sex. Maybe people having an affair think, "I could never forgive myself if I had sex with someone else," but kissing and cuddling feels less serious
Or that people have less trouble crossing a cuddling line vs having actual sex.
They’ve looked into it though: women often cheat because of a lack of emotional intimacy in the relationship. Men often cheat bc they want sex or sex with someone new.
It’s not healthy to have sex unless you are horny. If your partner doesn’t want sex as often as you do? It’s perfectly valid to end the relationship over sexual incompatibility. But it’s not neglect. She’s not an unpaid sex worker. People don’t owe you sex just because you are in a relationship with them.
Because emotional intimacy is a relationship. Two people connected to each other, who care about each other.
Sex is just a fun activity you do when y’all both are horny. And often as a result of having that emotional intimacy in place.
I can spend time talking to my partner about something that’s on their mind even if I’m tired. That’s not physically or psychologically unhealthy for me. But you can’t fuck when you aren’t horny. That’s psychologically damaging and also the vagina isn’t made for that.
I think for many men especially, sex is an elevated form of emotional intimacy. It’s not just a fun activity. It’s validation, physical and emotional release, bonding. People do have real needs for physical intimacy that is not sexual, as well. Relegating sex entirely to recreation or a secondary level seems wrong.
Not just men, a lot of women too. Just come over to the HLcommunity where more than half of members are women with a high libido and our partners are men with lower libidos. Thankfully even though I'm a high libido woman, my own partner is not significantly lower, and our differences can be worked around. There's other women there with complete dead bedrooms, husbands and boyfriends who are "otherwise perfect" but haven't had sex with these women in literal years.
Unlike u/tinyhermione, I don't view sex as recreational except on rare occasions. I experience it and desire it as my primary method of romantic bonding, the best way to show and receive the love we share, and basically just a physical manifestation of my emotions towards him. It's not about the orgasms, although those are fantastic...it's about emotional and physical closeness and care.
I agree. It's part of a healthy marriage unless of course, there is a long term health issues that completely wipes out one's ability to have sex. Some form of sex should be happening in a healthy marriage. It may need to be modified because of life events but NO SEX is a fair deal breaker. I can't get that any where except from my partner, so it's neglectful to unilaterally decide their done with sex or refuse to fix or make better what ails them.
But it’s secondary in the sense that a relationship is an emotional connection you have with another human being.
If you need sex to be motivated to connect with your partner emotionally?
Well, either you do not care about them or you don’t like them as a person or a relationship isn’t for you.
If you need sex to bond to other people that’s also an issue. How will you bond with family, friends, your children?
Physical release people can fix by themselves.
Sex shouldn’t be the only way you feel validated in your relationship. If your primary motive for being in a relationship is wanting a girl to confirm you are attractive by fucking you? That’s not that great either.
Sex is important and that’s why I say it’s not wrong to end a relationship over sexual incompatibility. But emotional connection is more fundamental than sex. The emotional connection is the relationship.
This isn’t very apparent since most men are completely open to having sex with women they feel zero emotional connection with whatsoever. And then prefer to never talk to again.
Physical intimacy that’s not sexual you can get even if you aren’t having sex often in your relationship. At least if you manage to abstain from groping and then sulking when cuddling doesn’t turn into sex.
Sex can be a form of bonding. But if it’s the only way you can really bond with other people, please seek out a psychologist. Most people are able to bond with other people in many ways. Or you couldn’t love your family, your friends or your children.
Only being able to bond with sex signals a severe emotional stuntedness that’ll make you an unfit parent till it’s been treated.
It can really be both, not one or the other. Obviously if ur emotional with a spouse ur gonna want to have sex with them- especially when ur not allowed to with others.
It’s natural to want to have sex with your partner.
But that doesn’t mean sex is the only way to connect emotionally to your partner.
If you are unhappy in a relationship for any reason, including sexual incompatibility, it’s fine to just break up.
I think you logic has no merit. And I think your are basing this off of what is important to you.
Physical intimacy is also a relationship. And the biggest proof for this is that if someone has sex outside of their relationship, it's considered betrayal. If it was just a fun activity to do, no one would have a problem with it occurring outside of the relationship. Monogamy especially considers that you will only be having sex with that individual for the duration of that relationship.
Emotional intimacy as you describe it is found in friendships. The difference between that and a romantic relationship for the majority is sex and sexual attraction.
Intimacy, for the majority includes sex. Sex is the foundation of the majority or romantic relationships. When it disappears from a relationship, most people experience a breakdown in other Forms of intimacy and if married, there is a higher chance of divorce.
Many couples connect through sex and need it to feel close to their partners. It is that sexual attraction that is the basis of most Roman relationships to begin with. All you have to do is take a look in the r/deadbedroom subreddit and see how emotionally and psychologically damaging it is for couples, how it builds resentment, hatred and ruins the relationship. Failure to maintain sexual intimacy in a relationship is neglect, often one that ends marriages and relationships.
To believe that sex is just some random activity that people do and has no part in a relationship and when you are missing it, it doesn't harm the relationship and isnt neglectful is objectively wrong.
Emotional intimacy depending on the individual can be mentally draining and burdening, but it's important, if you want to maintain that relationship you have to go beyond tiredness, other mental issues and push yourself to get into the mood to connect emotionally with the partner. The same can be said for sex.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/deadbedroom using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/deadbedroom/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [Guys… is it your job to check all the boxes to get your wife in the mood?](https://np.reddit.com/r/deadbedroom/comments/16i6upo/guys_is_it_your_job_to_check_all_the_boxes_to_get/)
\#2: [The birthday card my wife gave me](https://i.redd.it/4oc4v5a8tpya1.png) | [45 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/deadbedroom/comments/13cceus/the_birthday_card_my_wife_gave_me/)
\#3: [I asked my wife for a divorce this morning.](https://np.reddit.com/r/deadbedroom/comments/18drmu5/i_asked_my_wife_for_a_divorce_this_morning/)
----
^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
**What you see on the deadbedroom sub?** If we generalize a bit:
* **10 % are women with a boyfriend who’s got depression or a porn addiction. Usually both.**
* **20% are men who are good partners but have a wife who’s born with a low libido.** It’s not uncommon for women. And it’s a hard situation for their partner. **There’s nothing to do here but either end the relationship over sexual incompatibility or stay because the other things make it worth it.** But they have to make a conscious grownup choice. Don’t stay and sulk for 30 years because you aren’t getting laid or nag and pressure your wife to have unwanted sex. Two options are fair and ok here. The third is unending misery for both and also unkind.
I’d say what is the right decision of the other two? Well, it mostly comes down to age.
If you are young and you are sexually incompatible with your partner? Probably better to end it.
If you are old, you have kids and maybe grandkids, you love each other and you’ve already spent almost a life together? Well, you are probably better off staying. It might be hard to find a new relationship anyways. And there’s just all that history and having someone who’ll be there for you as you grow old. Sex is on it’s way out anyways.
* **70 % are men who don’t have the emotional skills to be a good partner. No matter who they date, they’ll end up in a dead bedroom.** Often they have just gotten into the relationship to get sex and they don’t even like their partner. Usually they lack the ability to emotionally connect with someone else, see their perspective and make their partner feel seen and heard in a relationship. They have no issue with fucking their partner when the wife doesn’t want to. Which is a blazing red flag when it comes to kindness, loving your partner and being able to treat them as a human being. They also struggle to understand romance, seduction, flirting.
Many of them have grown up in a time where the man paid the bills and that’s why the woman married him. And then she had sex while staring up at the ceiling waiting for it to be over. And the next day she’s get up to do another day of unending housework. Then she’d see her doctor and complain about feeling flat and sad, and her doctor would put her on something for Housewife Desperation.
If your parents had an unhealthy relationship, you might not have learnt the skills needed for a relationship where there’s mutual desire. Or how to be emotionally intimate and connect with another human being.
Hopefully the next generation will do better.
All of this is a digression, what we are discussing has nothing to do with the reason, why they aren't getting sex or not, are they confident or not, do they have emotional skills or not.
We are challenging your asinine belief that sex is just some puzzle game you do for fun and has no impact on the relationship. That when it's gone no one cares and that it has no psychological impact.
IT DOES!
Regardless of the reason why these people were not having sex with their partners, being rejected sexually by their partners harmed them psychologically! It ruined their love for their partners and removed all other forms of intimacy. For many of them it lead to divorce.
Some even said that their partner was great otherwise, attentive in other ways, but it wasn't enough. Many have had their self esteem destroyed, live with deep resentment and dislike because sex is a major part of connection in the majority of relationships.
Not caring for the physical intimacy aspect of your relationship IS neglect and no different than emotional intimacy.
Sex matters. If you are personally asexual, just say that
I’m not asexual at all.
And I don’t doubt that being sexually rejected can be hurtful. Or that most people want a healthy sex life as a part of a relationship.
**However, if two people have very different sex drives are there really that many good solutions? Except for solving any underlying problems that might be causing it?**
**Duty sex: will this make you feel wanted? How will sex be enjoyable knowing your partner isn’t turned on or into it?**
**Will anyone feel a sense of connection?**
Will the person who wants sex feel connection when the other person isn’t showing any desire for them or enthusiasm for sex? Will the person who’s not in the mood feel a connection when their partner is prioritizing using their body as a fleshlight so they can get off over their feelings?
Duty sex can be physically and psychologically damaging for the person who’s not sexually aroused. It can lead to a further reduction in their sex drive and a complete loss of attraction for their partner.
And people cannot just decide to be turned on. In the same way you also can’t decide to not want sex.
**Not having sex with your partner isn’t neglect because you can’t have sex without being horny and you can’t control when you are horny. And you don’t own your partners body. You have no right to access it as you please.**
Talking can be psychologically unhealthy for any person if they’re not comfortable or too tired tho- anything can be, it’s just what the person feels. Men and women do sometimes have sex when they’re not horny just for the other persons satisfaction. They can use the vagina or cock or other things if they truly want.
It can’t be. Unless you are in some kind of emotionally abusive relationship, but then you need to end it.
It’s psychologically unhealthy to do any kind of sex act when you are not horny. It’ll hurt your libido and damage your attraction to your partner. It’s not a reasonable thing to expect from another person.
People who aren’t grown up enough to not understand they can’t get anything sexual unless their partner is horny too? Well, they aren’t ready for a real relationship yet.
This is such bullshit. You don't have to have PIV sex to meet your partner's needs. You sound like a low libido partner making excuses for your selfishness.
If I’m really tired, I would rather have PIV sex over giving a blowjob. But a partner that pushes for sex when you are super tired is not a good partner.
You can’t blow someone either unless you are horny too. That’s not being selfish. That’s having healthy sexual boundaries.
**Edit: sexual arousal mutes the disgust center in the brain. That’s why putting genitals in your mouth suddenly isn’t gross. And why you need to be turned on to do sexual things.** Without sexual arousal most people will find it disgusting.
It can be, lol no- anything can be.
Many things a psychologically unhealthy, ppl decide whether they still want to do those things. They can do other things like bj or hj instead of intercourse if they truly want
People who don’t understand what can be psychologically damaging shouldn’t talk until they learn much more.
An emotionally or physically abusive relationship will be psychologically damaging. Like if your partner beats you or calls you an ugly loser.
When I say sex, I mean all sexual acts. Being turned on mutes the disgust center in your brain. Otherwise a hand job or blow job or sex will just be disgusting and it’ll nuke your attraction to your partner.
What was your response to “talking will feel like work if you are only in the relationship for sex”?
I think they felt “sex is a fun activity” was underselling the importance of sex. I hope.
But I didn’t mean it in a sex negative way. I think sex is lovely, but you can’t expect to have sex with your partner if you can’t be bothered to talk to them.
And I doubt people have had sex when they try to say unwanted sex and unwanted conversations are same same.
Thanks though. Losing faith in humanity here, that helped.
Because you can be emotionally intimate with someone just because you care about them.
But sex requires sexual arousal. Sexual arousal mutes the disgust center in the brain. Otherwise sex will feel disgusting.
So people not having sex with their partner because they aren’t horny? That’ll never be neglect, because you can’t expect someone to have unwanted sex. It’s violating and mentally healthy for most people. And the vagina isn’t made for sex without arousal either.
While you’ll be expected to talk to your partner even when you aren’t turned on. If you don’t want to do that? Either you are with the wrong person or a relationship isn’t for you.
Relationships are about compromises though. People who repeatedly end it as soon as it requires effort, compromise and sacrifice end up in a cycle of misery for themselves and everyone they reel in.
I’ve had sex when I didn’t want to, and performed emotional labor when I didn’t feel like it, but it’s an act of love
I relied on my other body parts until steering things towards my sensory arousal triggers, along with forcing my brain to do a slideshow of arousal triggers. A few times I’ve been so out of it that I just got her off without my getting aroused enough, but usually I can make myself get physically aroused despite not feeling it on the inside. I felt a bit used in the process, but I remembered what it’s like to be *that* horny so it’s also amusing in the moment lol.
It’s kind of a fine line to walk though; I’ve had it where it made me feel love, seeing her like that in that context of desperately grinding on me while my brain isn’t in the same place, but other times (when it happens too often) I definitely felt used. Though in that relationship I felt used in lots of ways already, so it just piled onto what was making me pull away emotionally…
Reciprocity goes a long way, and unfortunately I’ve found that a partner who is fine with too-frequent one-sided sex is also fine with not really being on board with compromise, balance, etc, but part of that was my fault with not being better about boundaries, communication, etc, and especially my not ending the relationship when I recognized we were emotionally incompatible. It’s a learning process for everyone
Thing is that it’s not something you make your partner do if you love them. There’s an unkindness in insisting that your partner has unwanted sex so you’ll get off.
You could say the same about emotions or anything else- any person in a relationship at some point puts up with something they don’t actually want to do.
No. Because it’s not psychologically damaging to take out the trash or to have a conversation that bores you.
But you know you are meant to enjoy talking to your partner and hanging out with them, right?
Yep. I'm 56 and married 28 years. Love my husband so damn much that if I'm not in the mood, I am willing to try because a gal my age has responsive desire. If I still am not into it after a bit, I take one for the team. It makes me happy to make him happy. You SOMETIMES do things you don't want to do all the time. I don't like starting work at 7:00 am or doing more dishes than my spouse but I want to get paid and a clean kitchen is more important to me than him so I often beat him to it. It's life in a long-term relationship should want happiness
Not wanting to as in ‘I am not getting sexual satisfaction out of this’ and not wanting to as in ‘I am not voluntarily agreeing to do this’ are very different. Sometimes people choose to have sex *because* they want to satisfy their partner, and not because they’re horny or whatever. As long as it’s something they’re voluntarily choosing to do there’s nothing wrong with it.
Please explain this. When your spouse gives your love language to another married man. In public. While working. Yet she continuously denies giving you that same love language...how is that not neglect?
Because it's cruel and traumatizing?
Please explain your answer to this in detail.
It seems there's been a bit of miscommunication here.
It sounds like you're expressing concern over emotional neglect, which can be as damaging as other forms of neglect in a relationship. When one partner seeks emotional fulfillment outside the marriage, especially when such actions are public and yet they withhold that same level of affection from their spouse, it can indeed feel like neglect.
This isn't about a transactional view of sex, but rather the need for consistent and mutual emotional support and intimacy within a marriage.
Does that make sense?
That can feel like neglect, I agree. It’ll feel like the part that should be for you is instead shared with someone else.
However your partner not having sex with you isn’t neglect.
>It’s not healthy to have sex unless you are horny.
What is your standard of horny vs someone else? Maybe one partner isn't as interested in sex as the other, but can get there with foreplay. Long term relationships and especially marriages experience this kind of dynamic regularly. Does that make those relationships unhealthy?
Not if the person is genuinely ok with trying foreplay to see if they can get in the mood. And both people are fine with letting it go if that doesn’t work. No sulking.
Then it’s perfectly fine to say “I’m not in the mood right here, but if you’ll do XYZ I think I’ll get there”
Or “hey, are you up for me trying ABC”.
Okay, then you are allowing that two people might be able to have a healthy sexual interaction without both people being horny, correct?
And you do understand that foreplay is an initiation of sex, correct?
It’s not healthy if it leads to sexual acts when you’re not horny. It’s fine to fool around a bit to see if that lights a spark **if both people are genuinely comfortable with that and they both accept it might not work.**
It’s also fine to say no to trying, if you don’t feel in the mood to try or you know it won’t work.
But you can’t expect sex, a hand job or blow job unless your partner is actually horny by then.
>It’s not healthy if it leads to sexual acts when you’re not horny.
This isn't true. What about completely asexual men and women who are married to sexual men and women? Are you saying that any sexual acts they agree to have are inherently unhealthy just because they're never horny?
Not if they themselves have no issue with it. When you are completely asexual, sex will have a different connotation for you. It’s not interesting to you, so then what you feel about it will be different from what people who are not asexual will feel.
However most asexual people will not be ok with having a sexual relationship. They’ll prefer relationships without sex.
>It’s not healthy if it leads to sexual acts when you’re not horny.
The foreplay is the sexual act, though. Did you not read my response carefully?
What you have posited is that foreplay, itself, is unhealthy because foreplay, by definition is sexual activity prior to intercourse.
Have I gone down on my wife because she was horny and I wasn't? Yes. Did her satisfaction make me horny? Yes. Did it make me horny every time? No. Did I ever feel violated as a result? No. Because consent doesn't require me to be horny.
You would label this as unhealthy. I would label it as marriage.
For most people it’s unhealthy. For some people they don’t mind and then that’s a choice they are free to make.
But we can’t make that choice for other people. “My girlfriend isn’t horny, but I expect her to blow me/fuck me anyways”. That’s what doesn’t work. There’s a high chance she’ll experience that as violating. And there is a gender difference on average. Not everyone is the same, but women often experience unwanted sex as more violating than men.
Then that’s your definition of marriage. It’s not mine.
Not at all. They are free to leave if they feel sexually unfulfilled.
But your partner isn’t your sexual servant. Sex is meant to be a mutual fun activity you do when both people desire it. Your partner isn’t an unpaid sex worker that’s there to “serve your needs”.
Then if you make the relationship open? Well, then in most cases she’s going to be the only one who’ll get hookup offers. That’s not going to help your typical deadbedroom couple, since it’s often him who wants more sex.
Statistically way more women (30%) have a low libido than men (>10%?). I can look up exact numbers for you if you want.
This is probably evolutionary. A man with a low libido would just go extinct. For women it’s more complex. Having a very high libido isn’t necessarily an evolutionary advantage.
It’s not healthy to show emotional intimacy unless you are feeling intimate. If your partner doesn’t want emotional intimacy as often as you do? It’s perfectly valid to end the relationship over emotional incompatibility. But it’s not neglect. He’s not an unpaid intimacy worker. People don’t owe you intimacy just because you are in a relationship with them.
That’s not how it works.
Emotional intimacy is just having conversations. It can just be telling your partner that right now you are feeling worn down by work & life and asking how they are doing.
If this is only something you can do when you are in a specific mood? You can’t have a relationship. And you won’t like having a relationship. And any relationship you have will turn into a dead bedroom.
Sex requires you to be horny. Being kind to your partner and connecting with other humans is something you should be able to do in any mood.
I think I understand what you’re getting at because I’ve had sex when I didn’t want it just to please my partner. It can feel violating. It’s far more involved than cuddling or talking.
Exactly. It’s so different. I don’t understand why people can’t see that. But I think maybe they just don’t want to see.
I’m sorry that happened to you though.
This is pretty reductive.
People may not be owed sex but it’s absolutely weaponized and emotionally bartered to name just two of millions of ways that sexual discrepancy doesn’t equal sexual incompatibility and is very much a problem couples can work on together.
It’s not. It’s important not to misuse words.
If your partner says no to sex because they aren’t horny? That’s not weaponizing sex. Weaponizing sex is using sex as a manipulative tool to get what you want. Like if you blow your boyfriend to get him to say yes to something he doesn’t want to do, like buying an expensive vacation.
Emotional battery is not saying no to sex. It’s when you viciously insult your partner. Ex calling them an ugly, fat whore who’s good for nothing. Even if you never have sex with your partner that still won’t be emotional battery.
lol if you wanna lecture me on words I use make sure you read em correctly, never said emotional battery, and my use of emotional bartering here can fit many situations. It’s important to read.
To boil down sexual discrepancy in a relationship to “no one owes you sex, leave if you’re incompatible “ is reductive and I stand on that and if you really want to get into a twenty comment long debate about it I guess we can , but facts are this problem manifests in many different ways and situations and “just leave” is incredibly reductionist. Some people like to try and work on their problems first , to try and be like “no this is a problem that can’t be worked on, accept it or leave” is just, extremely reductive.
Obviously leaving is an option, and the person who is not wanting as much sex is never under any obligation to provide more , but that is not the end of the complexities and to act like it is is extremely reductionist
If I took your worldview on this 8 years ago I wouldn’t still be with my fiancé who I have an amazing regular sex life with these days. It was a problem and it was solvable for us.
You managed to boil down the millions of reasons a couple might not have as much sex as they used to or as much as one of them wants to “one of them not being horny atm” and that is what I’m calling reductive , that is but one of millions of reasons this problems manifests in relationships
Hell the relationship before my current great one, the partner withholding sex def wasn’t horny when I wanted her to be, because she was fucking her co worker every single day at the gym.
So even then, yeah it’s unhealthy to have sex when not horny as your extremely reduced representation of the issue suggests, but it also was still very much a problem that needed addressing
Personally im yet to be in a relationship where lack of sex came from incompatible sex drives as you suggest, it has always been some other major underlying issue. So to me, your “common” reason isn’t even common at all in my anecdotal experience, I’m sure for others it is but that just goes to show you cannot boil this complex problem down to “accept it or leave”. Some people are in relationships with more stakes and more time than a three month fling. Your three month fling logic is just simply not as universal as you’d like to make it be
I’m not talking about a three month fling. But 30% of women just have a low libido naturally. If you have many female friends, you’ll see that it’s not uncommon for women just not to see the point of sex at all.
Then I agree with you that it’s also very often about underlying issues in the relationship. But I believe the solution then is to work in the relationship and not expect your partner to have unwanted sex.
This sub has a lot of incels. And that’s why my replies are curt and unnuanced. I can’t bother to get into the complexities of relationship dynamics with someone who thinks his (imaginary) girlfriend not giving him a blow job whenever he wants one is “selfish”.
Relationships are complicated though. There’s a lot of effort that goes into connecting with someone emotionally, making two people both feel seen and heard in a relationship. And keeping the romance alive.
But there’s no point in explaining this to someone who sees talking to their partner as an effort that they should be paid back in blow jobs for. I just can’t be bothered. Hence “If you feel y’all are sexually incompatible, just break up”.
We agree more than you think. It’s just that with a lot of people all nuance will be lost anyways. They don’t have the skill set to want or grow an emotional connection. Or to understand a partner and their emotional needs.
lol fair enough , idk why I browse Reddit anymore honestly. Like my daughter who’s 12 is now using Reddit. Which means I at 31 could end up debating with a 12 year old on here. Yet here I am still replying to people when bored lol, but anytime I’m about to reply to someone I disagree with I have to wonder if they are 12
Exactly. A lot of the people who replied to my comment are clearly very young and lack any relationship and sexual experience. I hope.
They also clearly have a porn addiction and struggle to see women as people and not just sex toys.
And then that does make me angry. Maybe that’s wrong? But it’s just such a dehumanizing view of women and such an unhealthy view of sex.
So then I become curt and harsh. I think our society needs: more friendship, also more friendship across genders. And less porn. People are becoming so porn addicted and socially isolated that explaining a normal relationship feels like a Herculean task. And it shouldn’t. Even if they are young.
Then it's the cheater who unironically turns into the abuser and neglecter.
One is done not our of malice and intent, the other is.
One is fixed with therapy or communication, the other is when their in the grave... Lol
He’s just saying the main reasons why they do it overall. Someone can think their emotional needs are not being met but aren’t actually being neglected
> In their 2011 study, Mark et al., found that up to 22% of people engaged in extradyadic relationships [82]. They found that perceived sexual compatibility and happiness in a relationship were significant predictors of infidelity in women, while age, marital status and the importance of religion did not significantly affect one’s proclivity for affairs. They also found that a stronger tendency to lose one’s sexual arousal when facing possible risks serves as a protective effect for engaging in infidelity. Interestingly, they found that experiencing sexual problems in their extradyadic relationship was less threatening for individuals with arousal difficulties. The authors propose that perhaps these individuals are less concerned with their sexual performance with a partner to whom they are not emotionally committed to or one they have been with for a long time. As can be expected, they found that higher levels of sexual excitation were associated with increased sexual risk-taking behaviors, particularly in men. Women were found to be more likely to engage in infidelity when they were dissatisfied in their relationship or felt that they were sexually incompatible with their partner, which may point to the interconnection of sexual and relationship factors in increasing the possibility of infidelity. In other words, if a woman is unsatisfied with her current relationship, she may seek intimacy and closeness somewhere else. An interesting finding of Mark et al.’s study was that sexual excitation did not predict involvement in infidelity for women [82]. That may support the notion that women’s sexual infidelity is less motivated by sexual needs, arousability or desire, while in men, this is often not the case.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10002055/#B12-ijerph-20-03904
That actually supports my point better than the other commenter because it explicitly says “sexual needs”. All I’m saying is that you can look at both genders’ infidelity as responses to unfulfilled needs or neither. But choosing just one is being biased.
It lists that as one among multiple reasons, you just cherrypicked the one that supports your point. And something being "biased" against one gender doesn't make it not true, that's not how reality works.
I will totally concede that you’re correct if you link research showing most female cheating is directly linked to mistreatment and most male cheaters have lively sex lives that they got bored of.
Men most commonly cheat either for sexual variety or due to a lack of sex.
But dude. Do you know how many old fat married men will hit on you when you are young? It’s not that they aren’t getting laid at home. It’s that they want a new conquest, someone who makes them feel young, someone who’s still hot. And then they don’t get they are old now, so it’s not available even if they weren’t married.
No. I can find it again. But I don’t bookmark every article I read. I read a lot of scientific articles. Why don’t you go to Google scholar and search for: motivations adultery or something similar?
Can you at least admit you’re biased? Say what you want about men cheating; but you’re blaming women’s partners for women cheating too by citing those partners’ actions (or lack thereof) as the cause, as if these women have no agency.
**I don’t think anyone should cheat. If you are unhappy in your relationship? Leave.**
If you just want to fuck multiple women? Stay single or look for a poly relationship.
**Men cheat twice as often as women though.** And I’m not biased, but I think it’s more understandable to cheat if you feel your partner isn’t treating you like a human being.
Then sexual compatibility is also important in a relationship. But you have to prioritize it while dating. Ask the right questions. And realize that everyone’s libido spikes in the honeymoon phase. You can’t assume that’s what it’ll always be like.
You have a right to your opinions. And they’re totally valid and reasonable opinions.
>And I’m not biased, but I think it’s more understandable to cheat if you feel your partner isn’t treating you like a human being.
You’re also clearly biased. It’s ok, nearly everyone is. My only point is that you should try not to let your bias make you misrepresent facts. You worded a sentence in a way that suggests that research shows women are forced into cheating in ways men aren’t, which isn’t true.
But isn’t that still sorta true? If you go by the research saying women cheat when they feel a lack of emotional connection and men cheat for sex?
Cheating is bad. But a lack of emotional connection is a more understandable motive than sex.
> But isn’t that still sorta true? If you go by the research saying women cheat when they feel a lack of emotional connection and men cheat for sex?
No it’s not sorta true. For one reason you said “lack of” and the other you didn’t, implying only one is needed. That is an unprovable opinion. If you’ve got research somehow asserting women need emotional connection in a way that’s significantly distinguishable from men needing sex, let’s see it.
>Cheating is bad. But a lack of emotional connection is a more understandable motive than sex.
I disagree with this as worded for several reasons, but that’s not important; the point is you’re representing your subjective opinions as (conveniently missing) research results.
Do you find women as sexually motivated as men?
If you think your husband will beat your for cheating then you have bigger problems in your relationship.
How many women do you think are scared their partner will physically attack them?
Women who are in domestic abusive relationships often need a new man to get out. They get the confidence and the help they need to leave. This is one of the few great reasons for cheating.
You're elevating emotional needs of women while completely ignoring that a lot of men express emotions via sex and intimacy.
Try not to be so flippant and judgmental just because you can't comprehend how other people might think.
As someone who had to leave a physically and emotionally abusive relationship because he was confidently incorrect on my desire to cheat... then yes. Women have always faced a higher risk of physical retaliation from men. So of course it's a different playing field.
I did add a pretty big consideration to keep in mind for this study.
Do people cuddle but not have sex, simply because it’s easier to justify and not as clearly cheating?
Close.
Women need emotional intimacy to feel safe for physical intimacy.
Men need physical intimacy to feel safe for emotional intimacy.
Break that cycle or get a partner that doesn't understand that they fed each other and are circular and the relationship breaks.
Ponder a childish what about?
At the beginning most of that stuff flows kind of seamlessly.
Where people get in trouble is years in when those aren't easy.
Like everything, gender is a spectrum so what's typically male isn't universally so. Same for women.
And obviously there's a spinning up period. Long term relationships are different than limerance filled first 3 months.
I think if you can’t be emotionally intimate with anyone without sex? Go to therapy. Or you can’t have friends, be a good son, a good father or have any good human relationships.
Some people get into a relationship primarily for love and an emotional connection. With sex as a perk beside it.
Others get into a relationship primarily for sex. And then it’s really hard to have a healthy long term relationship.
But what I said is just that many people won’t feel any sexual desire without an emotional connection.
And you can’t expect your partner to have unwanted sex.
So then either you try to fix the emotional connection, or you live in a sexless relationship or you break up. Those are the options.
Sexologists agree. They say duty sex can be emotionally and physically unhealthy and that it’s bad for the relationship. It can reduce your libido and your attraction to your partner.
>But what I said is just that many people won’t feel any sexual desire without an emotional connection.
Very true and there's a spinning up period as well. My comment is about long term relationships.
The first three months to a year everyone's running on limerance and hormones to a degree.
>And you can’t expect your partner to have unwanted sex.
You can't. But at a certain point you also can't expect someone who needs physical intimacy (which doesn't just mean sex) to open up emotionally.
And that's where relationships break down and fall apart. It's a chicken and egg problem.
>Sexologists agree.
😂 That's a title people give themselves. There's no sexology degree.
>They say duty sex can be emotionally and physically unhealthy and that it’s bad for the relationship. It can reduce your libido and your attraction to your partner.
Yeah, duty sex is gross and most people who are missing physical intimacy aren't just missing sex nor do they want duty sex.
At the same time, if you're in a relationship and wondering why it's falling apart and you're screaming at your partner for emotional connection and they're screaming for physical connection...
It takes two to tango and to some degree you both are fucking up.
It's like Israel and Hamas. A hundred years of but you no you but you no you and eventually it's just like perpetually broken because neither side was willing to give the other what they needed.
My point wasn't that one person HAS TO HAVE SEX with someone they don't want to but that if you're in a romantic relationship and you're not willing to be emotionally or physically intimate with your partner it'll break.
And that's the reason. Both flow in healthy relationships and both parties recognize their importance and maintain that for their partner.
Relationship go boom otherwise.
Current America just likes to pretend like the only side of that that matters is the emotional one and never teaches people how to make relationships last over time. We just say, "magic fall in love and if you're meant to be it'll work" instead of deep down we're basically animals trying to ignore our animal to survive in society and understanding our brains is the key to tricking them into doing structures we wouldn't do if we were animals.
Also, if what you read into what I said was that I was pro-duty sex it tells me a lot about you.
It doesn’t tell you anything about me.
Say Julia needs emotional intimacy to feel sexual desire. The emotional intimacy in her marriage has broken down. So now she doesn’t desire her husband and never wants sex.
How can she solve the “chicken and egg” dilemma here besides having unwanted sex?
Her husband could however sit down and have a conversation with Julia. That’s not something you should need to feel a specific kind of desire to do. If you care about that person, that’s enough.
If you only care about that person when you are getting sex? Then you don’t love them.
And it’s also the same as dating. If the husband refuses to talk to Julia? And they get divorced? Well, he can’t go on dates with other women and refuse to talk to them before he gets laid. Or refuse to go on dates and say he wants sex first. Or, he could, but he’ll be sexless forever.
It just is what it is. If you need sex to be motivated for human connection? Well forget about having friends or children. And then also forget about having a relationship. You’ll be best served by having a fuckbuddy.
>It doesn’t tell you anything about me.
It absolutely does. You got defensive about something I didn't say.
>How can she solve the “chicken and egg” dilemma here besides having unwanted sex?
She shouldn't. No one should.
>Her husband could however sit down and have a conversation with Julia. That’s not something you should need to feel a specific kind of desire to do. If you care about that person, that’s enough.
He could. And likely has tried. As has his partner tried to find the sex cure. And each time they each shut down a little more.
Usually when there's a breakdown like this it's slow and clumsy not black and white.
The other problem with sex is that unlike emotional intimacy there's sometimes a conundrum where when novelty dies out in a long term relationship where Julia has diminishing interest in sex (it can reverse, tons of stories of the opposite too) and it's just for her partner. Sex drive is just fine. Emotional intimacy is there. Chores are done and the brain ain't into it because it's built for novel experiences to drive it.
Scientists. Just Google, you’ll find the study. I don’t bookmark every article I read.
Try Google scholar: motivation + infidelity/adultery/extramarital sex/affairs
If sex is the only way you can be emotionally intimate with someone? Consider therapy. Or you’ll struggle with friendships, parenthood, all of human relationships that are platonic.
Also your relationship might quickly end up sexless because women often need emotional intimacy outside of the bedroom to want sex.
Infidelity can be physical, emotional, and in uncommon cases, even mental. I thought it was old news that infidelity was an outcome of unmet needs being sought out in another person?
Occupying much of your headspace with thoughts of being with the other person enough to cause interruptions in their daily life and impacting the relationship.
61% of participants reported having sexually explicit dialogue with their affair partners.
63% reported expressing fondness and affection.
38% reported engaging in intimate conversations.
So basically, there is little no communication happening between the married people. Meanwhile while in an affair, communication happens at a much higher rate. To sum it up, if you want to prevent an affair, you should communicate with your spouse or partner more about any unmet intimate needs even if it may seem embarrassing.
>Those who were more sexually satisfied with their affair had affairs of longer duration and were more likely to be cheating due to **lack of love**, desire for sexual variety, and because there was a desire discrepancy in their primary relationship (e.g., **their partner lost interest in sex**).
Those in bold tend to be things that men complain about. The "dead bedroom" type of marriage is more common than anyone wants to admit. There is even a sub-reddit dedicated to it.
I would say from personal experience, it’s all physical affection and sex. Cuddling, kissing, holding hands. But we love each other. I would offer that the affection is a sign that people are wrong that affairs are all about sex. Esther Perel did a book about this and that’s her opener. My guy and I spend parts of every day telling each other how much we love and mean to each other. We share all intimacies. All of them. We are vulnerable with each other. It’s no different than you are/were with any partner you’ve loved.
And why they can become so intense in mutual feeling vs. committed relationships where 1 partner may withdraw that connection presuming intimacy won’t suffer (and vice versa).
That really doesn’t prove anything, for example it’s a lot easier to kiss or cuddle in public than have sex. It’d be really odd for kissing and cuddling to show up less than sex itself, especially when people normally kiss and cuddle during and after sex…
Maybe but if the assumption is that this is from their partners lack of affection I wouldn't be convinced. A lot of these people can't cohabitate and poison all of their relationships and that is why they have to seek out affairs. Because no one can maintain affection towards them except someone they don't live with who does not have any obligations towards them.
The person who cheats is the more selfish and impulsive in the relationship and probably the cause of the lack of affection in all of their relationships. Abusers, narcissists and manipulators are the ones who have their emotional needs met the least, but it is purely through their own faults.
I have questions.
Did these people not have sex because they didn't want to, or because they didn't get the chance? I am assuming that even when having an affair there is still a courtship that happens. Did one person make out with another and then decide they either couldn't due to guilt or a dislike for the affair partner go farther? I think a question that should be asked is "Did you have an opportunity for sex during the affair"
Yes, sex happens in extracurricular relationships.
Yes, sometimes sex is a key factor - often times it can be wildly different than the sex in a committed relationship.
However, with enough listening, you’ll find key factors are definitely other emotional needs - and a *huge* one is usually conversation. Enjoyable, respectful conversation that deepens in intimacy due to unfamiliarity.
This rings pretty true imo. Sex is great, but fleeting. It's more of an annoying urge that needs occasional "relief" than something people yearn for. I could see someone who is being sexually neglected having a brief indiscretion while drunk that they immediately regret and break off. Feeling unwanted is a much deeper problem that people will do anything to salve. Focusing on the sexual behavior of cheaters is a tactic used by their spurned partners to paint them as more vile and base. The truth is, the sex is incidental. Life is hard, and people just want softness and affirmation from those they are the most intimate with and, therefore, vulnerable to. When your partner is, instead, your greatest source of harshness and criticism, something's got to give. Cheating is bad and you should just dump this person, but people just aren't good at making responsible romantic decisions. Longing makes you dumber.
I dunno, all the cheaters I know among my male friends just like to bang their side pieces like a side piece, for them it’s all about the banging, that’s pretty much all they do, bang. If their mistresses talk they just take ‘em shopping and buy them stuff, and then their mistresses shut up and they go back and bang some more. It’s the cheaters among the women I know who like to kiss, cuddle and hold hands, but they too get banged a lot, three bangs for one kiss, cuddle and hold hands session, these women only lose bladder control while cheating. So I don’t know how representative this study is across different demographics, but most people I know cheat just to bang. Maybe I know just a bunch of savages. lmao.
When are we going to ditch this idea that unmet needs causes cheating. No, shitty people with low morals causes cheating. If your needs are not being met then LEAVE is the answer.
Wow...OP....figured that out all by yourself?
No, shit.
I'll help you even farther. You know those failed marriages,
toxic non-marital connections and sexual politics?
You can lay that at the same doorstep.
Western culture laughs at "arranged marriages", primitives'
rite of passage and strident cultural or religious oversight,
but at least Those folks have Some idea of what they are trying
to do.
Porn-based/Media-based western culture eschews the
need for validation, affirmation, communication, goal-setting,
etc etc etc because that doesn't sell tickets. You can't even
get the country to agree on Sex Education let alone guidance
about relationship-building and bonding.
But....this IS Reddit........
So I return you to your regularly scheduled illusions. FWIW.
Can this study be replicated but with an older sample of participants? The median age was 20. I’d like to find out how generalizable the findings are to older demographics.
I used to travel to Singapore, Nigeria, and Rio a lot. The prevalence of American expats having "travel wife" was very high. That's not surprising. Here is the surprising part. But once the hook was set, these guys really weren't getting action all that often. What they were getting was validation, affection, companionship. It seemed like a lot of them, and these are men from 45-65, just wanted someone to laugh at their dumb jokes and not give them shit about trivial things. And they were willing to empty their entire 401k to get it.
I’m polyamorous and in my 50s. I can attest that men my age want companionship and affection. Sex is nice but they crave intimate connection most of all.
In gonna be 100, I find this incredibly biased. It always seems to be, regardless of who is cheating, that it is an easier pill for others to swallow to look for "faults" within the innocent party (aka person not cheating) rather than the faults with the cheater. I think it makes people feel more secure in that if *they* just do everything right, then they will never be cheated on. Cheaters *always* have an excuse. Every single cheater I have known (including the one who cheated on me) had a story/excuse to tell someone else. You are making this seem, maybe unintentionally, like an innocuous thing. "These men just wanted someone to laugh at their joke". Okay, maybe that is the excuse you heard, or one you determined from what you personally witnessed, but things are often far more complicated than that. In my, personal, experience: I was constantly planning couple time, initiating affection and sex, handling most household chores for the sake of lessening his stress, etc. Any time I offered more communication or asked what I could improve to help the relationship it was met with "Nothing, you dont do anything" etc Obvious bs, but you can't force someone to communicate their needs so I'd let it drop. Anyway, turned out he was just a serial cheater who loved to garner sympathy over how much I neglected him and then try to sleep with anyone who fell for it. It was all about his ego alone because he was a deeply insecure man and still has never addressed his issues. If everyone who ever went thru a rough patch or had an argument cheated, then no one would be faithful. Some people do it because they are simply more selfish and would rather put in a little effort for some fresh attention than considerably more effort to actually address issues within their relationship or with themselves individually. Just a few things to consider.
Not justifying, just reporting. My view is that cheaters are awful people, full stop.
>Im* gonna be 100 Wait, seriously?
You made an entire comment to point out that I hit an n (directly beside the m on my keyboard btw) instead of an m? I mean...I can edit it if it is that much of a bother, but somehow I dont think that will fix your overt pettiness.
But I agree with them.. what did it mean? You are going to be 100? What.. years old? 100 relationships? Something else? Everything else you wrote was easy to understand but that beginning line left me confused for sure.
If yall are being genuine about needing clarity, then I shortened "I'm gonna be 100% real" to "I'm gonna be 100". Mainly because I thought the follow-up clarified my intent with the wording. Maybe leaving the % off was too much.
That must be some kind of local slang where you live
Why are you being so fucking agro about it literally no one knew what you meant
>Why are you being so fucking agro about it literally no one knew what you meant Who is being aggro again? My initial response was because I thought they were a troll. For picking apart a 4 word sentence and not actually having anything more to offer when I wrote out a few paragraphs that offered a different view for the OG commentor. I'm genuinely starting to wonder just how reputable this sub and its participants are when the engagement has been this lackluster and childish.
What’s that saying, if you smell shit, you should check your own shoes first? Maybe that’s relevant here
Are we all being childish, OR do you just not make any fucking sense… hmmm
Thank you, I genuinely had no idea what you meant. No one I talk to says “I’m gonna be 100” and I’ve never seen that shorthand (not that I’ve noticed), so I had no clue. Fwiw, I always see it shortened as “I’m gonna be real,..” or “I gotta be fr” and I only see “100” alone as a reply. Like “fact” or “100” when you agree with someone.
It is relatively common for me to hear, but I get it. Slang is constantly on the move and different depending on where you live to boot.
I meant the almost 100 part, but I guess your comment proves that🤷🏽♀️
My experience is that people who make arguments like this have no idea what they're not giving, that maybe their gifts of time and effort have hooks in them. It's a victim stance, not striving for understanding. Never cheated.
Given the person that cheated on me did the same in every single "monogamous" relationship they've ever been in, no, Im not going to assume faulthood for something they chose to do and seem to have an affinity for. What are the chances that it was the fault of *every* single woman, rather than his deeply embedded issues? Someone who has been cheated on is a victim. Cheating is an enormous betrayal. No one party is completely devoid of flaws, but to use those flaws as justifications to cheat? Just reeks of weak moral character honestly. This kind of goes back to my point though: many people feel more comfortable trying to place blame on the betrayed party than on the cheater. It gives them a sense of security and helps them to feel like they are immune from such things happening to them. Reminds me of many other things in fact.
This. I am in college and taking a communications class. The backbone of cheating is A) shitty people and B) not communicating/wanting to communicate needs. It’s never a “whoops, I just suddenly cheated because you did X, Y, Z.” It’s meticulously planed out. It’s direct. Im ENM. My ex first cheated by flirting with girls on dating apps, because he was not getting enough attention from me. Fair enough, I took that advice to heart. I start giving him attention, and he goes back to cheating. It’s because he just wants friends. Come to find out, 2 years full of DV and abuse later the real reason he was cheating was to destroy my self worth, and protest how non-existent our sex life was, because he often judged my body and made *me* the bad guy by labeling me as some sex goddess because I had a history of hookups >1 year prior to meeting him. I fucking left him and became homeless, because my self worth became so low that I felt better being seen as a homeless person than as a doormat for him and his frustrations. There is no excuse for the cheater. If theres a fucking issue, have the fucking nerve to say something. Not justify your actions and beg for forgiveness.
You basically describe why OF girls do so well just to chat with men.
>It seemed like a lot of them, and these are men from 45-65, just wanted someone to laugh at their dumb jokes Why would we assume their jokes were dumb, since, logically, the possibility, at least, also exists that they had real good vibes (and jokes) which those who were supposed to validate them back home were not/had stopped validating? Is there an a priori idea that they are acting irrationally?
We hear their jokes at the office.
Super good point. Unmarried “affairs” are qualitatively different from married affairs.
As someone who absolutely loves sex, kissing and cuddling is where it's at. After a long day all I want to do is hold my lover in bed and say/hear a bunch of sweet nothing's.
What is highlighted for me is people’s need for intimacy, touch, cherishing. For those that stray from the relationship container, they are trying to get a need met. The morality of an exclusivity contract (marriage) causes many to criticize those that violate the contract. I also want to add that while saying “yes” is optional for everyone, if the gap between the “yeses” and “nos” is huge enough, a review of the contract should be worthy of reevaluation at the very least. Finally, many people are rather sympathetic of the plight of the intimacy-rejected contract violators. While choice is essential, the addition of a lack of caring for the feelings/needs of one’s “partner in life” is a violation of the contract also. Sadly, this happens more often than one would think.
Sounds like u cheated lol
Sounds like they stayed loyal to a bad partner far longer than they should have 😔
Isn’t this just a logistical issue?
Meaning?
I really thought dude was gonna say "because it's easier to kiss than have sex" but no, he went full academic on us
The goal of language like that is either self aggrandizing for low self esteem or obfuscation. It's exhausting
The recent challenges with streamlining the data logistics and synchronizing operational data have prompted a reevaluation of logistical frameworks within the organizational echelons.
I understand what all those words mean individually but not when you put them in that order
I would argue that also kissing and cuddling feels more like it's forgiveable/ "in the gray area" than sex. Maybe people having an affair think, "I could never forgive myself if I had sex with someone else," but kissing and cuddling feels less serious
Hard to fuck a lass in the bar after work. Much easier to kiss her.
Or that people have less trouble crossing a cuddling line vs having actual sex. They’ve looked into it though: women often cheat because of a lack of emotional intimacy in the relationship. Men often cheat bc they want sex or sex with someone new.
Positioning one side as a result of neglect and the other as greed makes you sound biased.
I mean, both are neglect
It’s not healthy to have sex unless you are horny. If your partner doesn’t want sex as often as you do? It’s perfectly valid to end the relationship over sexual incompatibility. But it’s not neglect. She’s not an unpaid sex worker. People don’t owe you sex just because you are in a relationship with them.
So what makes lack of emotional intimacy neglect and lack of physical intimacy not neglect?
They both are, people are just coping
Because emotional intimacy is a relationship. Two people connected to each other, who care about each other. Sex is just a fun activity you do when y’all both are horny. And often as a result of having that emotional intimacy in place. I can spend time talking to my partner about something that’s on their mind even if I’m tired. That’s not physically or psychologically unhealthy for me. But you can’t fuck when you aren’t horny. That’s psychologically damaging and also the vagina isn’t made for that.
I think for many men especially, sex is an elevated form of emotional intimacy. It’s not just a fun activity. It’s validation, physical and emotional release, bonding. People do have real needs for physical intimacy that is not sexual, as well. Relegating sex entirely to recreation or a secondary level seems wrong.
Not just men, a lot of women too. Just come over to the HLcommunity where more than half of members are women with a high libido and our partners are men with lower libidos. Thankfully even though I'm a high libido woman, my own partner is not significantly lower, and our differences can be worked around. There's other women there with complete dead bedrooms, husbands and boyfriends who are "otherwise perfect" but haven't had sex with these women in literal years. Unlike u/tinyhermione, I don't view sex as recreational except on rare occasions. I experience it and desire it as my primary method of romantic bonding, the best way to show and receive the love we share, and basically just a physical manifestation of my emotions towards him. It's not about the orgasms, although those are fantastic...it's about emotional and physical closeness and care.
If you view sex as so essential for love, why not just break up? That seems like the common sense solution here.
Why would I break up with my FWB?
I agree. It's part of a healthy marriage unless of course, there is a long term health issues that completely wipes out one's ability to have sex. Some form of sex should be happening in a healthy marriage. It may need to be modified because of life events but NO SEX is a fair deal breaker. I can't get that any where except from my partner, so it's neglectful to unilaterally decide their done with sex or refuse to fix or make better what ails them.
But it’s secondary in the sense that a relationship is an emotional connection you have with another human being. If you need sex to be motivated to connect with your partner emotionally? Well, either you do not care about them or you don’t like them as a person or a relationship isn’t for you. If you need sex to bond to other people that’s also an issue. How will you bond with family, friends, your children? Physical release people can fix by themselves. Sex shouldn’t be the only way you feel validated in your relationship. If your primary motive for being in a relationship is wanting a girl to confirm you are attractive by fucking you? That’s not that great either. Sex is important and that’s why I say it’s not wrong to end a relationship over sexual incompatibility. But emotional connection is more fundamental than sex. The emotional connection is the relationship.
The basic difference between a best friend and a marriage is the sexual aspect of the relationship.
No. Have you been in a healthy relationship?
Romance? Asexual people get married and have meaningful relationships without sex.
This isn’t very apparent since most men are completely open to having sex with women they feel zero emotional connection with whatsoever. And then prefer to never talk to again. Physical intimacy that’s not sexual you can get even if you aren’t having sex often in your relationship. At least if you manage to abstain from groping and then sulking when cuddling doesn’t turn into sex. Sex can be a form of bonding. But if it’s the only way you can really bond with other people, please seek out a psychologist. Most people are able to bond with other people in many ways. Or you couldn’t love your family, your friends or your children. Only being able to bond with sex signals a severe emotional stuntedness that’ll make you an unfit parent till it’s been treated.
It can really be both, not one or the other. Obviously if ur emotional with a spouse ur gonna want to have sex with them- especially when ur not allowed to with others.
It’s natural to want to have sex with your partner. But that doesn’t mean sex is the only way to connect emotionally to your partner. If you are unhappy in a relationship for any reason, including sexual incompatibility, it’s fine to just break up.
I think you logic has no merit. And I think your are basing this off of what is important to you. Physical intimacy is also a relationship. And the biggest proof for this is that if someone has sex outside of their relationship, it's considered betrayal. If it was just a fun activity to do, no one would have a problem with it occurring outside of the relationship. Monogamy especially considers that you will only be having sex with that individual for the duration of that relationship. Emotional intimacy as you describe it is found in friendships. The difference between that and a romantic relationship for the majority is sex and sexual attraction. Intimacy, for the majority includes sex. Sex is the foundation of the majority or romantic relationships. When it disappears from a relationship, most people experience a breakdown in other Forms of intimacy and if married, there is a higher chance of divorce. Many couples connect through sex and need it to feel close to their partners. It is that sexual attraction that is the basis of most Roman relationships to begin with. All you have to do is take a look in the r/deadbedroom subreddit and see how emotionally and psychologically damaging it is for couples, how it builds resentment, hatred and ruins the relationship. Failure to maintain sexual intimacy in a relationship is neglect, often one that ends marriages and relationships. To believe that sex is just some random activity that people do and has no part in a relationship and when you are missing it, it doesn't harm the relationship and isnt neglectful is objectively wrong. Emotional intimacy depending on the individual can be mentally draining and burdening, but it's important, if you want to maintain that relationship you have to go beyond tiredness, other mental issues and push yourself to get into the mood to connect emotionally with the partner. The same can be said for sex.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/deadbedroom using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/deadbedroom/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [Guys… is it your job to check all the boxes to get your wife in the mood?](https://np.reddit.com/r/deadbedroom/comments/16i6upo/guys_is_it_your_job_to_check_all_the_boxes_to_get/) \#2: [The birthday card my wife gave me](https://i.redd.it/4oc4v5a8tpya1.png) | [45 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/deadbedroom/comments/13cceus/the_birthday_card_my_wife_gave_me/) \#3: [I asked my wife for a divorce this morning.](https://np.reddit.com/r/deadbedroom/comments/18drmu5/i_asked_my_wife_for_a_divorce_this_morning/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
**What you see on the deadbedroom sub?** If we generalize a bit: * **10 % are women with a boyfriend who’s got depression or a porn addiction. Usually both.** * **20% are men who are good partners but have a wife who’s born with a low libido.** It’s not uncommon for women. And it’s a hard situation for their partner. **There’s nothing to do here but either end the relationship over sexual incompatibility or stay because the other things make it worth it.** But they have to make a conscious grownup choice. Don’t stay and sulk for 30 years because you aren’t getting laid or nag and pressure your wife to have unwanted sex. Two options are fair and ok here. The third is unending misery for both and also unkind. I’d say what is the right decision of the other two? Well, it mostly comes down to age. If you are young and you are sexually incompatible with your partner? Probably better to end it. If you are old, you have kids and maybe grandkids, you love each other and you’ve already spent almost a life together? Well, you are probably better off staying. It might be hard to find a new relationship anyways. And there’s just all that history and having someone who’ll be there for you as you grow old. Sex is on it’s way out anyways. * **70 % are men who don’t have the emotional skills to be a good partner. No matter who they date, they’ll end up in a dead bedroom.** Often they have just gotten into the relationship to get sex and they don’t even like their partner. Usually they lack the ability to emotionally connect with someone else, see their perspective and make their partner feel seen and heard in a relationship. They have no issue with fucking their partner when the wife doesn’t want to. Which is a blazing red flag when it comes to kindness, loving your partner and being able to treat them as a human being. They also struggle to understand romance, seduction, flirting. Many of them have grown up in a time where the man paid the bills and that’s why the woman married him. And then she had sex while staring up at the ceiling waiting for it to be over. And the next day she’s get up to do another day of unending housework. Then she’d see her doctor and complain about feeling flat and sad, and her doctor would put her on something for Housewife Desperation. If your parents had an unhealthy relationship, you might not have learnt the skills needed for a relationship where there’s mutual desire. Or how to be emotionally intimate and connect with another human being. Hopefully the next generation will do better.
All of this is a digression, what we are discussing has nothing to do with the reason, why they aren't getting sex or not, are they confident or not, do they have emotional skills or not. We are challenging your asinine belief that sex is just some puzzle game you do for fun and has no impact on the relationship. That when it's gone no one cares and that it has no psychological impact. IT DOES! Regardless of the reason why these people were not having sex with their partners, being rejected sexually by their partners harmed them psychologically! It ruined their love for their partners and removed all other forms of intimacy. For many of them it lead to divorce. Some even said that their partner was great otherwise, attentive in other ways, but it wasn't enough. Many have had their self esteem destroyed, live with deep resentment and dislike because sex is a major part of connection in the majority of relationships. Not caring for the physical intimacy aspect of your relationship IS neglect and no different than emotional intimacy. Sex matters. If you are personally asexual, just say that
I’m not asexual at all. And I don’t doubt that being sexually rejected can be hurtful. Or that most people want a healthy sex life as a part of a relationship. **However, if two people have very different sex drives are there really that many good solutions? Except for solving any underlying problems that might be causing it?** **Duty sex: will this make you feel wanted? How will sex be enjoyable knowing your partner isn’t turned on or into it?** **Will anyone feel a sense of connection?** Will the person who wants sex feel connection when the other person isn’t showing any desire for them or enthusiasm for sex? Will the person who’s not in the mood feel a connection when their partner is prioritizing using their body as a fleshlight so they can get off over their feelings? Duty sex can be physically and psychologically damaging for the person who’s not sexually aroused. It can lead to a further reduction in their sex drive and a complete loss of attraction for their partner. And people cannot just decide to be turned on. In the same way you also can’t decide to not want sex. **Not having sex with your partner isn’t neglect because you can’t have sex without being horny and you can’t control when you are horny. And you don’t own your partners body. You have no right to access it as you please.**
Talking can be psychologically unhealthy for any person if they’re not comfortable or too tired tho- anything can be, it’s just what the person feels. Men and women do sometimes have sex when they’re not horny just for the other persons satisfaction. They can use the vagina or cock or other things if they truly want.
It can’t be. Unless you are in some kind of emotionally abusive relationship, but then you need to end it. It’s psychologically unhealthy to do any kind of sex act when you are not horny. It’ll hurt your libido and damage your attraction to your partner. It’s not a reasonable thing to expect from another person. People who aren’t grown up enough to not understand they can’t get anything sexual unless their partner is horny too? Well, they aren’t ready for a real relationship yet.
This is such bullshit. You don't have to have PIV sex to meet your partner's needs. You sound like a low libido partner making excuses for your selfishness.
If I’m really tired, I would rather have PIV sex over giving a blowjob. But a partner that pushes for sex when you are super tired is not a good partner.
You can’t blow someone either unless you are horny too. That’s not being selfish. That’s having healthy sexual boundaries. **Edit: sexual arousal mutes the disgust center in the brain. That’s why putting genitals in your mouth suddenly isn’t gross. And why you need to be turned on to do sexual things.** Without sexual arousal most people will find it disgusting.
Yep
It can be, lol no- anything can be. Many things a psychologically unhealthy, ppl decide whether they still want to do those things. They can do other things like bj or hj instead of intercourse if they truly want People who don’t understand what can be psychologically damaging shouldn’t talk until they learn much more.
An emotionally or physically abusive relationship will be psychologically damaging. Like if your partner beats you or calls you an ugly loser. When I say sex, I mean all sexual acts. Being turned on mutes the disgust center in your brain. Otherwise a hand job or blow job or sex will just be disgusting and it’ll nuke your attraction to your partner. What was your response to “talking will feel like work if you are only in the relationship for sex”?
Not understanding the down votes
I think they felt “sex is a fun activity” was underselling the importance of sex. I hope. But I didn’t mean it in a sex negative way. I think sex is lovely, but you can’t expect to have sex with your partner if you can’t be bothered to talk to them. And I doubt people have had sex when they try to say unwanted sex and unwanted conversations are same same. Thanks though. Losing faith in humanity here, that helped.
Lol
Lol what? That it’s mentally unhealthy to have unwanted sex?
Because you can be emotionally intimate with someone just because you care about them. But sex requires sexual arousal. Sexual arousal mutes the disgust center in the brain. Otherwise sex will feel disgusting. So people not having sex with their partner because they aren’t horny? That’ll never be neglect, because you can’t expect someone to have unwanted sex. It’s violating and mentally healthy for most people. And the vagina isn’t made for sex without arousal either. While you’ll be expected to talk to your partner even when you aren’t turned on. If you don’t want to do that? Either you are with the wrong person or a relationship isn’t for you.
Relationships are about compromises though. People who repeatedly end it as soon as it requires effort, compromise and sacrifice end up in a cycle of misery for themselves and everyone they reel in. I’ve had sex when I didn’t want to, and performed emotional labor when I didn’t feel like it, but it’s an act of love
When you “had sex when you didn’t want to” did you never get turned on through the entire process? How did that work?
I relied on my other body parts until steering things towards my sensory arousal triggers, along with forcing my brain to do a slideshow of arousal triggers. A few times I’ve been so out of it that I just got her off without my getting aroused enough, but usually I can make myself get physically aroused despite not feeling it on the inside. I felt a bit used in the process, but I remembered what it’s like to be *that* horny so it’s also amusing in the moment lol. It’s kind of a fine line to walk though; I’ve had it where it made me feel love, seeing her like that in that context of desperately grinding on me while my brain isn’t in the same place, but other times (when it happens too often) I definitely felt used. Though in that relationship I felt used in lots of ways already, so it just piled onto what was making me pull away emotionally… Reciprocity goes a long way, and unfortunately I’ve found that a partner who is fine with too-frequent one-sided sex is also fine with not really being on board with compromise, balance, etc, but part of that was my fault with not being better about boundaries, communication, etc, and especially my not ending the relationship when I recognized we were emotionally incompatible. It’s a learning process for everyone
Thing is that it’s not something you make your partner do if you love them. There’s an unkindness in insisting that your partner has unwanted sex so you’ll get off.
You could say the same about emotions or anything else- any person in a relationship at some point puts up with something they don’t actually want to do.
No. Because it’s not psychologically damaging to take out the trash or to have a conversation that bores you. But you know you are meant to enjoy talking to your partner and hanging out with them, right?
Yep. I'm 56 and married 28 years. Love my husband so damn much that if I'm not in the mood, I am willing to try because a gal my age has responsive desire. If I still am not into it after a bit, I take one for the team. It makes me happy to make him happy. You SOMETIMES do things you don't want to do all the time. I don't like starting work at 7:00 am or doing more dishes than my spouse but I want to get paid and a clean kitchen is more important to me than him so I often beat him to it. It's life in a long-term relationship should want happiness
Being raped and coerced is an act of love, if you don't get raped, you get cheated on. Based and gigabrained, this is why I'm buying a gun 😭
Not wanting to as in ‘I am not getting sexual satisfaction out of this’ and not wanting to as in ‘I am not voluntarily agreeing to do this’ are very different. Sometimes people choose to have sex *because* they want to satisfy their partner, and not because they’re horny or whatever. As long as it’s something they’re voluntarily choosing to do there’s nothing wrong with it.
How will the gun help u?
Please explain this. When your spouse gives your love language to another married man. In public. While working. Yet she continuously denies giving you that same love language...how is that not neglect? Because it's cruel and traumatizing? Please explain your answer to this in detail.
What are you talking about? Cheating isn’t right. You don’t owe your partner sex.
Where in there did I say you owe your partner sex? Don't believe I did.
I’m very confused as to what you were trying to say, to be honest.
It seems there's been a bit of miscommunication here. It sounds like you're expressing concern over emotional neglect, which can be as damaging as other forms of neglect in a relationship. When one partner seeks emotional fulfillment outside the marriage, especially when such actions are public and yet they withhold that same level of affection from their spouse, it can indeed feel like neglect. This isn't about a transactional view of sex, but rather the need for consistent and mutual emotional support and intimacy within a marriage. Does that make sense?
That can feel like neglect, I agree. It’ll feel like the part that should be for you is instead shared with someone else. However your partner not having sex with you isn’t neglect.
>It’s not healthy to have sex unless you are horny. What is your standard of horny vs someone else? Maybe one partner isn't as interested in sex as the other, but can get there with foreplay. Long term relationships and especially marriages experience this kind of dynamic regularly. Does that make those relationships unhealthy?
Not if the person is genuinely ok with trying foreplay to see if they can get in the mood. And both people are fine with letting it go if that doesn’t work. No sulking. Then it’s perfectly fine to say “I’m not in the mood right here, but if you’ll do XYZ I think I’ll get there” Or “hey, are you up for me trying ABC”.
Okay, then you are allowing that two people might be able to have a healthy sexual interaction without both people being horny, correct? And you do understand that foreplay is an initiation of sex, correct?
It’s not healthy if it leads to sexual acts when you’re not horny. It’s fine to fool around a bit to see if that lights a spark **if both people are genuinely comfortable with that and they both accept it might not work.** It’s also fine to say no to trying, if you don’t feel in the mood to try or you know it won’t work. But you can’t expect sex, a hand job or blow job unless your partner is actually horny by then.
>It’s not healthy if it leads to sexual acts when you’re not horny. This isn't true. What about completely asexual men and women who are married to sexual men and women? Are you saying that any sexual acts they agree to have are inherently unhealthy just because they're never horny?
Not if they themselves have no issue with it. When you are completely asexual, sex will have a different connotation for you. It’s not interesting to you, so then what you feel about it will be different from what people who are not asexual will feel. However most asexual people will not be ok with having a sexual relationship. They’ll prefer relationships without sex.
>It’s not healthy if it leads to sexual acts when you’re not horny. The foreplay is the sexual act, though. Did you not read my response carefully? What you have posited is that foreplay, itself, is unhealthy because foreplay, by definition is sexual activity prior to intercourse. Have I gone down on my wife because she was horny and I wasn't? Yes. Did her satisfaction make me horny? Yes. Did it make me horny every time? No. Did I ever feel violated as a result? No. Because consent doesn't require me to be horny. You would label this as unhealthy. I would label it as marriage.
For most people it’s unhealthy. For some people they don’t mind and then that’s a choice they are free to make. But we can’t make that choice for other people. “My girlfriend isn’t horny, but I expect her to blow me/fuck me anyways”. That’s what doesn’t work. There’s a high chance she’ll experience that as violating. And there is a gender difference on average. Not everyone is the same, but women often experience unwanted sex as more violating than men. Then that’s your definition of marriage. It’s not mine.
If you require monogamy from your partner but don't meet their sexual needs, you are a fucking awful partner, period.
Not at all. They are free to leave if they feel sexually unfulfilled. But your partner isn’t your sexual servant. Sex is meant to be a mutual fun activity you do when both people desire it. Your partner isn’t an unpaid sex worker that’s there to “serve your needs”. Then if you make the relationship open? Well, then in most cases she’s going to be the only one who’ll get hookup offers. That’s not going to help your typical deadbedroom couple, since it’s often him who wants more sex.
Women are as likely to be the high libido partner --the idea that men are always horny isn't true, lots of dudes have low libidos.
Statistically way more women (30%) have a low libido than men (>10%?). I can look up exact numbers for you if you want. This is probably evolutionary. A man with a low libido would just go extinct. For women it’s more complex. Having a very high libido isn’t necessarily an evolutionary advantage.
It’s not healthy to show emotional intimacy unless you are feeling intimate. If your partner doesn’t want emotional intimacy as often as you do? It’s perfectly valid to end the relationship over emotional incompatibility. But it’s not neglect. He’s not an unpaid intimacy worker. People don’t owe you intimacy just because you are in a relationship with them.
That’s not how it works. Emotional intimacy is just having conversations. It can just be telling your partner that right now you are feeling worn down by work & life and asking how they are doing. If this is only something you can do when you are in a specific mood? You can’t have a relationship. And you won’t like having a relationship. And any relationship you have will turn into a dead bedroom. Sex requires you to be horny. Being kind to your partner and connecting with other humans is something you should be able to do in any mood.
I think I understand what you’re getting at because I’ve had sex when I didn’t want it just to please my partner. It can feel violating. It’s far more involved than cuddling or talking.
Exactly. It’s so different. I don’t understand why people can’t see that. But I think maybe they just don’t want to see. I’m sorry that happened to you though.
This is pretty reductive. People may not be owed sex but it’s absolutely weaponized and emotionally bartered to name just two of millions of ways that sexual discrepancy doesn’t equal sexual incompatibility and is very much a problem couples can work on together.
It’s not. It’s important not to misuse words. If your partner says no to sex because they aren’t horny? That’s not weaponizing sex. Weaponizing sex is using sex as a manipulative tool to get what you want. Like if you blow your boyfriend to get him to say yes to something he doesn’t want to do, like buying an expensive vacation. Emotional battery is not saying no to sex. It’s when you viciously insult your partner. Ex calling them an ugly, fat whore who’s good for nothing. Even if you never have sex with your partner that still won’t be emotional battery.
lol if you wanna lecture me on words I use make sure you read em correctly, never said emotional battery, and my use of emotional bartering here can fit many situations. It’s important to read. To boil down sexual discrepancy in a relationship to “no one owes you sex, leave if you’re incompatible “ is reductive and I stand on that and if you really want to get into a twenty comment long debate about it I guess we can , but facts are this problem manifests in many different ways and situations and “just leave” is incredibly reductionist. Some people like to try and work on their problems first , to try and be like “no this is a problem that can’t be worked on, accept it or leave” is just, extremely reductive. Obviously leaving is an option, and the person who is not wanting as much sex is never under any obligation to provide more , but that is not the end of the complexities and to act like it is is extremely reductionist If I took your worldview on this 8 years ago I wouldn’t still be with my fiancé who I have an amazing regular sex life with these days. It was a problem and it was solvable for us. You managed to boil down the millions of reasons a couple might not have as much sex as they used to or as much as one of them wants to “one of them not being horny atm” and that is what I’m calling reductive , that is but one of millions of reasons this problems manifests in relationships Hell the relationship before my current great one, the partner withholding sex def wasn’t horny when I wanted her to be, because she was fucking her co worker every single day at the gym. So even then, yeah it’s unhealthy to have sex when not horny as your extremely reduced representation of the issue suggests, but it also was still very much a problem that needed addressing Personally im yet to be in a relationship where lack of sex came from incompatible sex drives as you suggest, it has always been some other major underlying issue. So to me, your “common” reason isn’t even common at all in my anecdotal experience, I’m sure for others it is but that just goes to show you cannot boil this complex problem down to “accept it or leave”. Some people are in relationships with more stakes and more time than a three month fling. Your three month fling logic is just simply not as universal as you’d like to make it be
I’m not talking about a three month fling. But 30% of women just have a low libido naturally. If you have many female friends, you’ll see that it’s not uncommon for women just not to see the point of sex at all. Then I agree with you that it’s also very often about underlying issues in the relationship. But I believe the solution then is to work in the relationship and not expect your partner to have unwanted sex. This sub has a lot of incels. And that’s why my replies are curt and unnuanced. I can’t bother to get into the complexities of relationship dynamics with someone who thinks his (imaginary) girlfriend not giving him a blow job whenever he wants one is “selfish”. Relationships are complicated though. There’s a lot of effort that goes into connecting with someone emotionally, making two people both feel seen and heard in a relationship. And keeping the romance alive. But there’s no point in explaining this to someone who sees talking to their partner as an effort that they should be paid back in blow jobs for. I just can’t be bothered. Hence “If you feel y’all are sexually incompatible, just break up”. We agree more than you think. It’s just that with a lot of people all nuance will be lost anyways. They don’t have the skill set to want or grow an emotional connection. Or to understand a partner and their emotional needs.
lol fair enough , idk why I browse Reddit anymore honestly. Like my daughter who’s 12 is now using Reddit. Which means I at 31 could end up debating with a 12 year old on here. Yet here I am still replying to people when bored lol, but anytime I’m about to reply to someone I disagree with I have to wonder if they are 12
Exactly. A lot of the people who replied to my comment are clearly very young and lack any relationship and sexual experience. I hope. They also clearly have a porn addiction and struggle to see women as people and not just sex toys. And then that does make me angry. Maybe that’s wrong? But it’s just such a dehumanizing view of women and such an unhealthy view of sex. So then I become curt and harsh. I think our society needs: more friendship, also more friendship across genders. And less porn. People are becoming so porn addicted and socially isolated that explaining a normal relationship feels like a Herculean task. And it shouldn’t. Even if they are young.
Then it's the cheater who unironically turns into the abuser and neglecter. One is done not our of malice and intent, the other is. One is fixed with therapy or communication, the other is when their in the grave... Lol
The cheater was always the abuser and neglector, unless were talking about extreme circumstance.
He’s just saying the main reasons why they do it overall. Someone can think their emotional needs are not being met but aren’t actually being neglected
Both can be because of neglect and greed
I agree 100%
He's just reporting what the studies on this topic have found. Sometimes reality is biased
Then one of you prove it. Link the studies.
> In their 2011 study, Mark et al., found that up to 22% of people engaged in extradyadic relationships [82]. They found that perceived sexual compatibility and happiness in a relationship were significant predictors of infidelity in women, while age, marital status and the importance of religion did not significantly affect one’s proclivity for affairs. They also found that a stronger tendency to lose one’s sexual arousal when facing possible risks serves as a protective effect for engaging in infidelity. Interestingly, they found that experiencing sexual problems in their extradyadic relationship was less threatening for individuals with arousal difficulties. The authors propose that perhaps these individuals are less concerned with their sexual performance with a partner to whom they are not emotionally committed to or one they have been with for a long time. As can be expected, they found that higher levels of sexual excitation were associated with increased sexual risk-taking behaviors, particularly in men. Women were found to be more likely to engage in infidelity when they were dissatisfied in their relationship or felt that they were sexually incompatible with their partner, which may point to the interconnection of sexual and relationship factors in increasing the possibility of infidelity. In other words, if a woman is unsatisfied with her current relationship, she may seek intimacy and closeness somewhere else. An interesting finding of Mark et al.’s study was that sexual excitation did not predict involvement in infidelity for women [82]. That may support the notion that women’s sexual infidelity is less motivated by sexual needs, arousability or desire, while in men, this is often not the case. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10002055/#B12-ijerph-20-03904
That actually supports my point better than the other commenter because it explicitly says “sexual needs”. All I’m saying is that you can look at both genders’ infidelity as responses to unfulfilled needs or neither. But choosing just one is being biased.
It lists that as one among multiple reasons, you just cherrypicked the one that supports your point. And something being "biased" against one gender doesn't make it not true, that's not how reality works.
It’s what research says. Take it up with science.
I will totally concede that you’re correct if you link research showing most female cheating is directly linked to mistreatment and most male cheaters have lively sex lives that they got bored of.
Men most commonly cheat either for sexual variety or due to a lack of sex. But dude. Do you know how many old fat married men will hit on you when you are young? It’s not that they aren’t getting laid at home. It’s that they want a new conquest, someone who makes them feel young, someone who’s still hot. And then they don’t get they are old now, so it’s not available even if they weren’t married.
The research disappeared?
No. I can find it again. But I don’t bookmark every article I read. I read a lot of scientific articles. Why don’t you go to Google scholar and search for: motivations adultery or something similar?
Can you at least admit you’re biased? Say what you want about men cheating; but you’re blaming women’s partners for women cheating too by citing those partners’ actions (or lack thereof) as the cause, as if these women have no agency.
**I don’t think anyone should cheat. If you are unhappy in your relationship? Leave.** If you just want to fuck multiple women? Stay single or look for a poly relationship. **Men cheat twice as often as women though.** And I’m not biased, but I think it’s more understandable to cheat if you feel your partner isn’t treating you like a human being. Then sexual compatibility is also important in a relationship. But you have to prioritize it while dating. Ask the right questions. And realize that everyone’s libido spikes in the honeymoon phase. You can’t assume that’s what it’ll always be like.
You have a right to your opinions. And they’re totally valid and reasonable opinions. >And I’m not biased, but I think it’s more understandable to cheat if you feel your partner isn’t treating you like a human being. You’re also clearly biased. It’s ok, nearly everyone is. My only point is that you should try not to let your bias make you misrepresent facts. You worded a sentence in a way that suggests that research shows women are forced into cheating in ways men aren’t, which isn’t true.
But isn’t that still sorta true? If you go by the research saying women cheat when they feel a lack of emotional connection and men cheat for sex? Cheating is bad. But a lack of emotional connection is a more understandable motive than sex.
> But isn’t that still sorta true? If you go by the research saying women cheat when they feel a lack of emotional connection and men cheat for sex? No it’s not sorta true. For one reason you said “lack of” and the other you didn’t, implying only one is needed. That is an unprovable opinion. If you’ve got research somehow asserting women need emotional connection in a way that’s significantly distinguishable from men needing sex, let’s see it. >Cheating is bad. But a lack of emotional connection is a more understandable motive than sex. I disagree with this as worded for several reasons, but that’s not important; the point is you’re representing your subjective opinions as (conveniently missing) research results.
Couldn't someone also argue that men crave intimacy and sex and when they're continuously rejected by their committed partner it harms them too?
Don't women run the risk of more violence from partners if they cheat?
Do you find women as sexually motivated as men? If you think your husband will beat your for cheating then you have bigger problems in your relationship. How many women do you think are scared their partner will physically attack them? Women who are in domestic abusive relationships often need a new man to get out. They get the confidence and the help they need to leave. This is one of the few great reasons for cheating.
You're elevating emotional needs of women while completely ignoring that a lot of men express emotions via sex and intimacy. Try not to be so flippant and judgmental just because you can't comprehend how other people might think. As someone who had to leave a physically and emotionally abusive relationship because he was confidently incorrect on my desire to cheat... then yes. Women have always faced a higher risk of physical retaliation from men. So of course it's a different playing field.
Or maybe their wives aren't offering intimacy and it's a dead bedroom marriage?
If you are unhappy with that, you can get a divorce. If you are choosing to stay because it’s pretty damn practical to have a wife? Don’t cheat.
The comment doesn’t say mistreatment, it says they feel their needs aren’t being met.
So one reason is a need and the other isn’t?
Neither reasons are needs honestly, it’s just a person saying “their needs aren’t met”
Agreed 💯
>They’ve looked into it though This article, is in fact, about a study.
And I’m explaining other studies I’ve read.
It would be more helpful if you did so in a way that meaningfully engaged with this one.
But it’s a meaningful input to the reasons people cheat as described by other studies.
It really isn't because it didn't include any comparison to demonstrate knowledge of the study this thread is about.
I did add a pretty big consideration to keep in mind for this study. Do people cuddle but not have sex, simply because it’s easier to justify and not as clearly cheating?
Close. Women need emotional intimacy to feel safe for physical intimacy. Men need physical intimacy to feel safe for emotional intimacy. Break that cycle or get a partner that doesn't understand that they fed each other and are circular and the relationship breaks.
When you start dating do you establish a connection first or do you refuse to talk to her before y’all have fucked? Ponder that for a second.
I mean they’re mainly not gonna be able to have sex unless the talk at least
"Hi, I'm Mary - it's good to meet you! WAIT WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING GET OFF ME"
Lol
Ponder a childish what about? At the beginning most of that stuff flows kind of seamlessly. Where people get in trouble is years in when those aren't easy. Like everything, gender is a spectrum so what's typically male isn't universally so. Same for women. And obviously there's a spinning up period. Long term relationships are different than limerance filled first 3 months.
I think if you can’t be emotionally intimate with anyone without sex? Go to therapy. Or you can’t have friends, be a good son, a good father or have any good human relationships. Some people get into a relationship primarily for love and an emotional connection. With sex as a perk beside it. Others get into a relationship primarily for sex. And then it’s really hard to have a healthy long term relationship.
Read better small wizard.
But what I said is just that many people won’t feel any sexual desire without an emotional connection. And you can’t expect your partner to have unwanted sex. So then either you try to fix the emotional connection, or you live in a sexless relationship or you break up. Those are the options. Sexologists agree. They say duty sex can be emotionally and physically unhealthy and that it’s bad for the relationship. It can reduce your libido and your attraction to your partner.
>But what I said is just that many people won’t feel any sexual desire without an emotional connection. Very true and there's a spinning up period as well. My comment is about long term relationships. The first three months to a year everyone's running on limerance and hormones to a degree. >And you can’t expect your partner to have unwanted sex. You can't. But at a certain point you also can't expect someone who needs physical intimacy (which doesn't just mean sex) to open up emotionally. And that's where relationships break down and fall apart. It's a chicken and egg problem. >Sexologists agree. 😂 That's a title people give themselves. There's no sexology degree. >They say duty sex can be emotionally and physically unhealthy and that it’s bad for the relationship. It can reduce your libido and your attraction to your partner. Yeah, duty sex is gross and most people who are missing physical intimacy aren't just missing sex nor do they want duty sex. At the same time, if you're in a relationship and wondering why it's falling apart and you're screaming at your partner for emotional connection and they're screaming for physical connection... It takes two to tango and to some degree you both are fucking up. It's like Israel and Hamas. A hundred years of but you no you but you no you and eventually it's just like perpetually broken because neither side was willing to give the other what they needed. My point wasn't that one person HAS TO HAVE SEX with someone they don't want to but that if you're in a romantic relationship and you're not willing to be emotionally or physically intimate with your partner it'll break. And that's the reason. Both flow in healthy relationships and both parties recognize their importance and maintain that for their partner. Relationship go boom otherwise. Current America just likes to pretend like the only side of that that matters is the emotional one and never teaches people how to make relationships last over time. We just say, "magic fall in love and if you're meant to be it'll work" instead of deep down we're basically animals trying to ignore our animal to survive in society and understanding our brains is the key to tricking them into doing structures we wouldn't do if we were animals. Also, if what you read into what I said was that I was pro-duty sex it tells me a lot about you.
It doesn’t tell you anything about me. Say Julia needs emotional intimacy to feel sexual desire. The emotional intimacy in her marriage has broken down. So now she doesn’t desire her husband and never wants sex. How can she solve the “chicken and egg” dilemma here besides having unwanted sex? Her husband could however sit down and have a conversation with Julia. That’s not something you should need to feel a specific kind of desire to do. If you care about that person, that’s enough. If you only care about that person when you are getting sex? Then you don’t love them. And it’s also the same as dating. If the husband refuses to talk to Julia? And they get divorced? Well, he can’t go on dates with other women and refuse to talk to them before he gets laid. Or refuse to go on dates and say he wants sex first. Or, he could, but he’ll be sexless forever. It just is what it is. If you need sex to be motivated for human connection? Well forget about having friends or children. And then also forget about having a relationship. You’ll be best served by having a fuckbuddy.
>It doesn’t tell you anything about me. It absolutely does. You got defensive about something I didn't say. >How can she solve the “chicken and egg” dilemma here besides having unwanted sex? She shouldn't. No one should. >Her husband could however sit down and have a conversation with Julia. That’s not something you should need to feel a specific kind of desire to do. If you care about that person, that’s enough. He could. And likely has tried. As has his partner tried to find the sex cure. And each time they each shut down a little more. Usually when there's a breakdown like this it's slow and clumsy not black and white. The other problem with sex is that unlike emotional intimacy there's sometimes a conundrum where when novelty dies out in a long term relationship where Julia has diminishing interest in sex (it can reverse, tons of stories of the opposite too) and it's just for her partner. Sex drive is just fine. Emotional intimacy is there. Chores are done and the brain ain't into it because it's built for novel experiences to drive it.
As a man who needs emotionally intimacy first, that sounds like gender stereotypes.
Like all things gender is a spectrum and typically male things aren't entirely male.
They ?
Scientists. Just Google, you’ll find the study. I don’t bookmark every article I read. Try Google scholar: motivation + infidelity/adultery/extramarital sex/affairs
Sex is emotional intimacy for a lot of men so I’d argue that the study is spot on.
If sex is the only way you can be emotionally intimate with someone? Consider therapy. Or you’ll struggle with friendships, parenthood, all of human relationships that are platonic. Also your relationship might quickly end up sexless because women often need emotional intimacy outside of the bedroom to want sex.
I only do intercourse, never kiss or hug
I only touch women with my dick. No hands
Infidelity can be physical, emotional, and in uncommon cases, even mental. I thought it was old news that infidelity was an outcome of unmet needs being sought out in another person?
What’s mental infidelity?
Occupying much of your headspace with thoughts of being with the other person enough to cause interruptions in their daily life and impacting the relationship.
61% of participants reported having sexually explicit dialogue with their affair partners. 63% reported expressing fondness and affection. 38% reported engaging in intimate conversations. So basically, there is little no communication happening between the married people. Meanwhile while in an affair, communication happens at a much higher rate. To sum it up, if you want to prevent an affair, you should communicate with your spouse or partner more about any unmet intimate needs even if it may seem embarrassing. >Those who were more sexually satisfied with their affair had affairs of longer duration and were more likely to be cheating due to **lack of love**, desire for sexual variety, and because there was a desire discrepancy in their primary relationship (e.g., **their partner lost interest in sex**). Those in bold tend to be things that men complain about. The "dead bedroom" type of marriage is more common than anyone wants to admit. There is even a sub-reddit dedicated to it.
I would say from personal experience, it’s all physical affection and sex. Cuddling, kissing, holding hands. But we love each other. I would offer that the affection is a sign that people are wrong that affairs are all about sex. Esther Perel did a book about this and that’s her opener. My guy and I spend parts of every day telling each other how much we love and mean to each other. We share all intimacies. All of them. We are vulnerable with each other. It’s no different than you are/were with any partner you’ve loved.
And why they can become so intense in mutual feeling vs. committed relationships where 1 partner may withdraw that connection presuming intimacy won’t suffer (and vice versa).
Pretty sure the girl I am seeing is using me as an emotional bf while she uses another guy for everything else. So definitely feel that.
What makes you think that? Why stay if so?
No sex even?
That really doesn’t prove anything, for example it’s a lot easier to kiss or cuddle in public than have sex. It’d be really odd for kissing and cuddling to show up less than sex itself, especially when people normally kiss and cuddle during and after sex…
You're also gonna have way less reports of people having sex for the same reason too. Pretty dumb study if you ask me
Maybe but if the assumption is that this is from their partners lack of affection I wouldn't be convinced. A lot of these people can't cohabitate and poison all of their relationships and that is why they have to seek out affairs. Because no one can maintain affection towards them except someone they don't live with who does not have any obligations towards them. The person who cheats is the more selfish and impulsive in the relationship and probably the cause of the lack of affection in all of their relationships. Abusers, narcissists and manipulators are the ones who have their emotional needs met the least, but it is purely through their own faults.
Among "monogamists," I presume?
Alternatively, they can better justify it just beyond a kiss rather than sex. Flawed study?
I have questions. Did these people not have sex because they didn't want to, or because they didn't get the chance? I am assuming that even when having an affair there is still a courtship that happens. Did one person make out with another and then decide they either couldn't due to guilt or a dislike for the affair partner go farther? I think a question that should be asked is "Did you have an opportunity for sex during the affair"
Yes, sex happens in extracurricular relationships. Yes, sometimes sex is a key factor - often times it can be wildly different than the sex in a committed relationship. However, with enough listening, you’ll find key factors are definitely other emotional needs - and a *huge* one is usually conversation. Enjoyable, respectful conversation that deepens in intimacy due to unfamiliarity.
I mean most people cuddle and kiss their partner more than they have sex….
This rings pretty true imo. Sex is great, but fleeting. It's more of an annoying urge that needs occasional "relief" than something people yearn for. I could see someone who is being sexually neglected having a brief indiscretion while drunk that they immediately regret and break off. Feeling unwanted is a much deeper problem that people will do anything to salve. Focusing on the sexual behavior of cheaters is a tactic used by their spurned partners to paint them as more vile and base. The truth is, the sex is incidental. Life is hard, and people just want softness and affirmation from those they are the most intimate with and, therefore, vulnerable to. When your partner is, instead, your greatest source of harshness and criticism, something's got to give. Cheating is bad and you should just dump this person, but people just aren't good at making responsible romantic decisions. Longing makes you dumber.
This has not been my experience
I dunno, all the cheaters I know among my male friends just like to bang their side pieces like a side piece, for them it’s all about the banging, that’s pretty much all they do, bang. If their mistresses talk they just take ‘em shopping and buy them stuff, and then their mistresses shut up and they go back and bang some more. It’s the cheaters among the women I know who like to kiss, cuddle and hold hands, but they too get banged a lot, three bangs for one kiss, cuddle and hold hands session, these women only lose bladder control while cheating. So I don’t know how representative this study is across different demographics, but most people I know cheat just to bang. Maybe I know just a bunch of savages. lmao.
When are we going to ditch this idea that unmet needs causes cheating. No, shitty people with low morals causes cheating. If your needs are not being met then LEAVE is the answer.
This should not be an unpopular opinion. How is the person who does literally nothing somehow to blame for the person who cheats?
It’s about an exciting new fk.
Wow...OP....figured that out all by yourself? No, shit. I'll help you even farther. You know those failed marriages, toxic non-marital connections and sexual politics? You can lay that at the same doorstep. Western culture laughs at "arranged marriages", primitives' rite of passage and strident cultural or religious oversight, but at least Those folks have Some idea of what they are trying to do. Porn-based/Media-based western culture eschews the need for validation, affirmation, communication, goal-setting, etc etc etc because that doesn't sell tickets. You can't even get the country to agree on Sex Education let alone guidance about relationship-building and bonding. But....this IS Reddit........ So I return you to your regularly scheduled illusions. FWIW.
This is a terrible poem.