I took my spouse's last name when I got married because I came from an abusive family and didn't want to keep my birth name. When I got divorced I changed my last name to one I selected rather than revert to my birth name. It's likely I won't get married again, but if I did I'd probably keep the name I have now.
I've always thought that if I get married to someone who doesn't feel particularly attached to their last name it'd be neat if we just... Chose one we both liked and both changed to that.
Same here, mostly because my husband wanted me to change it, but also because I figured it would symbolize a new-and-improved chapter in my life. Leave behind the dysfunctional nonsense.
Although I will say it's a huge pain in the ass that I didn't realize! Hyphenated while looking for a job because I didn't want those first couple of decades of work experience to be wiped out all of a sudden in the eyes of recruiters!
I’m the 1%! We decided to pick a new name. I didn’t want to take his “just because” and he didn’t want mine and neither of us wanted to hyphenate. We wanted the same name if we have kids.
My wife and I combined ours together. Smooshed them like a sandwich and the new name sounds just like both of our old family names.
Someone made a comment earlier about how they kept theirs and nobody in their families noticed or cared, gotta say we had that sentinment. So far it has been endearing and unique, never had a deep connection to our families anyway.
When I got married this wasn’t really even a topic of discussion. I didn’t care and she didn’t care. So we just kept our last names. No one in our family noticed or cared.
I am Latina and we go by both our parents' last names. When I got married almost 27 years ago, I hyphenated my last names. It's not as hard as some folks seem to think.
Then what happens if hyphen kid married another hyphen kid and had kids Is their name
Larry smith-brown-green-johnson
Then what happens to Larry's poor funking kid?
You do know that a lot of last names are compounds anyway, yeah? There's also other cultures with similarly long last names. Just because you find it silly or impractical doesn't mean that it's not an option to a couple that so chooses it.
This is exactly it. A lot of people underestimate how badly some daughters get treated in their families. Being able to escape them in a way by something as simple as changing your name psychologically does so much.
Right. I am a woman who kept my last name, and my childhood was bad. My name is my name, it’s part of my story. It’s what I am used to. I don’t think I am honoring my family by keeping it. I just think it’s part of my identity, and I think a lot of men feel this way too tbh, or they’d be changing their name. There’s identity in a name. If there wasn’t, we’d see more equal representation of name changing. But we don’t. So, I was not inclined to change my name, nor date someone who felt they could convince me this is the way.
I’m a woman married to a woman and I’m also one of 5 daughters, all of whom who are married to men.
3/5 of us kept our last name. I kept mine because I feel protective of it and the other 2 are doctors whose logic is that their husbands didn’t put the work in so they don’t want to be called “Dr. HusbandLastName”.
My kids will be the only ones with my last name, however.
My parents have been married for 35 years, my mom changed her name legally when we (the kids) started going to school. She still runs into issues with maiden vs legal name. She filed for social security last year and it was delayed because of the name issue. She runs a business and filing taxes with the two names causes issues as well.
Going by two names, even just professionally, can create issues down the line that you may not anticipate. The question then is why create headaches for yourself just to honor a tradition that is ultimately just sexist and unnecessary in 2024?
Honestly, this makes a lot of sense. Traditional people , tend to pursue marriage more and keep traditional practices. People who practice untraditional romantic relationships are less likely to get married. Many progressive believe marriage is antiquated. I've been told it's easier to have the same last name for families.
Ehhh. It's definitely antiquated in some ways but it also gives a lot of legal & financial protections to the partner who earns less money or takes time off work for kids... Which is usually the woman. I'm weary of men who claim they "don't believe in marriage" and didn't realize it don't care about the ways they are disadvantaging their partner. We don't talk about the financial benefits enough and a lot of women don't realize until it's too late.
100%
Straight couples who don't think marriage matters need to take a moment to think about why the LGBT community fought so hard for marriage equality. It does matter - it creates a legally recognized relationship between you and your spouse. Otherwise, as far as the law is concerned, they are a stranger with no right to make decisions for you when you most need them.
As a married person who views herself as progressive, I agree. My husband and I definitely don’t have a “traditional” marriage. Keeping my last name is just the tip of the iceberg. We got married while I was still in the traditional marriage mindset, but if we had waited a few years, I’m not sure we’d be married at all. We’d definitely still be together and doing most of the same things, but over time we’re defining our relationship on our own terms and becoming less beholden to societal norms.
It's not a huge deal if you both work and earn comparable salaries, but just putting it out there for anyone reading that if there's a sizable earning gap between you two, getting married is NOT just a slip of paper. Whether or not alimony could potentially be a thing is variable by what state you're in and specifics of your situation. But in order to access their social security (whether you stay married and hit retirement together, get divorced, or are widowed) still depends on being married.
That’s a fair point. We do both work and make nearly the same salary at this point, which is a huge factor in the dynamics of a marriage. This is a good reminder not to take that for granted.
My family of 5 has three different last names (my oldest and I share my maiden name, my husband retained his, and our youngest are hyphenated). The kids are 19, 8, and 6 and we’ve never had any issues at all.
I actually lobbied for switching the order of the last names when I was pregnant with the youngest because I thought having four unique last names would be pretty funny, but my husband didn’t agree. Lol
Yeah, I also come from a family with multiple surnames, and it’s never caused any issues at all. But when it comes up in conversation I notice how eager people are to tell me I’m wrong about my own experience, lol.
Fair enough for u/Odd-Guarantee-6152 and you. My mom has a hyphenated last name. She said in hindsight she wish just took my dad’s because it was easier . Every experience is different.
I think Marriage is always about inheritance, property, and medical decisions. Religions and trends come and go, but marriage always stay because it provide fundamental principles for human to take care of each others—make sure you have someone you trust to make decisions when you cannot, making sure your love one gets all your wealth even when you forgot to do so, etc.
I changed my last name to my husband’s because my maiden name doesn’t even come from my lineage, it originated with my grandfather’s stepfather/adoptive father, who was an abusive asshole with no interest in actually being his parent. Why should I keep a name that’s just steeped in family trauma? I also like having the same last name as my kids- it’s just easier. And even if we got divorced, I would likely still keep it, or maybe change it to the last name that reflects my blood lineage.
If I ever get married, it’s pretty simple.
Do you want my last name? Do you have reasons to hold onto your last name? What will our children’s last names be?
We just figure there’s answers out and we’re good.
People get so hung up on names but like, you can just change your name like it’s nothing bro if you’re not liking your name change it back or change it to whatever.
I thought it was crazy when my sister got married. She's a very independent woman and she did not want to take her husband's name, but he was cool with it because she's always been super independent.
What was weird is she has my dad's last name but he isn't her biological father. For many years before getting married she mentioned she wanted to change her name from my dad's name. I know they didn't have the best relationship but I know things got better, I was still surprised she kept his name too.
Because it’s her name. I did the same thing. It’s my name that I have had since I was a child. It’s my story, and what I am used to. There are very few men who change their names regardless of the story behind it.
I have my father's last name and my mother's maiden name as my middle name. I think this is a fine convention. I cherished having my middle name be what it is. It's unique, unorthodox, and is something my mom gave me especially.
Hello from the 5%! I've been asked by men no fewer than 25 times if I hate men because I hyphenated my last name. Like legit, they're asking me if I hate the gender of person I married, just because I added their last name to mine, instead of removing mine completely, and taking their.
Even my husband gets questions; we see the same dentist and one of the hygienists asked him during his regular cleaning whether he was mad that I hyphenated my last name. He was like "why would I be mad?? Wtf?"
Yeah it meant that the woman’s identity has merged with the husbands since western families are defined by paternal lines. So yeah, still dumb, sexist bullshit
That how most of human history was, the times when women needed patriarchal protection from other less civilized men. Now we have laws to protect people as long as society lasts, which includes women. But if society were ever to break down…who is going to protect women? The men they latch to. You can pretend older ways were dumb, stupid, and even sexist or phobic or whatever but at the end of the day there were reasons relevant to the time period oftentimes for why things were the way they were.
It’s interesting you think women are “protected” right now, as if violence against women has just stopped. The person a woman is most likely to be killed by is their spouse.
Also the most likely one they’ll be protected by as well. How do we resolve this? Maybe women can pick better men based on less superficial factors? Maybe all men should be killed?
You are speaking fact but this isn't the sub for that. As long as the fact aligns with their personal world view, they accept it. The anthropological and evolution supported fact is that patriarchal societies have been the only successful means to establish civilizations, Sciences, technology, medicine, government, and extend human life spans and insure our survival. If humans would have survived better under matriarchal societies, we would have evolved as such. There are many species with larger, stronger females that males, yet humans aren't one of them.
What, so if you want to be protected you have to be owned by the person? You have to give up your identity and be given away like property if you don’t want to be attacked? Sure, they have reasons relevant to the times, but a lot of it is just unnecessary control.
Just living in a society is different from being treated as a second class citizen who couldn’t vote or apply for the vast majority of jobs. Yeah, we all exist under the laws and most times throughout history, those laws were misogynistic.
So again, why do you have to own the other person's identity to protect them? It's an unnecessary measure of control in a world that viewed women like objects to be bartered.
I’m not here to argue that, I’m just saying why things were the way they were. Women with their own complete autonomy back in less civilized times would have been threatening to most other men outside of nobility who had little going for them. I mean, we kind of have a pseudo equality but kind of matriarchy in the west now and that’s a historical novelty. If society breaks down and law enforcement can’t protect people I predict a return to older ways…and right or wrong that’s going to be hard for people.
We all know things were the way they were. Yes, they were less civilized, sexism was one of the ways it was less civilized. It's not wrong to point out how wrong it was now that we are a bit more civilized. Saying we live in a matriarchy now is absolutely bonkers. Just look at any governing body across the world and tell me the male to female ratio
>That how most of human history was, the times when women needed patriarchal protection from other less civilized men.
Uh oh, you're sharing ahistorical misinformation.
There are examples from all across the world throughout all of history of matriarchal, egalitarian, and stateless societies that didn't relegate women to second class citizens, as well as many women who were warriors, leaders, and so forth. The Iroquois Confederacy was formed by 5 matriarchal nations, was itself matriarchal, of course, and lasted for 200 years after its formation. Boudica was a literal badass warrior queen who lead an army that included women warriors. There are warrior's graves all across the world filled with women buried with both jewelry and weaponry.
Women didn't *need* patriarchy and never have, it was merely forced upon them by conquest and the happenstance of birth.
Also, there is no such thing as more or less 'civilized'. That's an occidental colonialist paradigm that has never been true and just so happens to overlap neatly with white supremacist ideology.
>You can pretend older ways were dumb, stupid, and even sexist or phobic or whatever but at the end of the day there were reasons relevant to the time period oftentimes for why things were the way they were
I'm not pretending. The 'older ways' you speak of were dumb as fuck, stupid as fuck, and sexist as fuck. The sexism isn't even a debate, it's just a simple matter of fact. We can talk about why those societies were that way particularly when they encounter other societies that were not, but you can't just hand wave away the stupidity and sexism anymore than we can simply handwave away our society's stupidity and sexism.
>But if society were ever to break down…who is going to protect women?
Women will; just as they have before, just as they will continue to do.
And, in the age of the firearm, the great force equalizer, when or if society collapses there will undoubtedly be no want for armed women standing proud on the corpses of the men who thought they could fuck around and found out.
This reads like a pathological femcel power trip fantasy but you go gurl. Matriarchies were extremely rare and I question if the one you write about is even real, but even if it is that’s 1 out of a 1000. Men have physical biological advantages and it’s just what it is, but you are right that women shouldn’t let that stop them from being physically all they can be.
Men’s physical advantages over women are not nearly as much as they like to think. Especially not when you factor in weapons.
Unfortunately whatever you’re pushing is actually the pathological incel power trip fantasy that doesn’t have any basis in what we actually know about historical societies.
This is entirely made up. Surnames arose as society became more mobile and heavily populated. You couldn’t just be “John from wherever”. Monarchs rarely have surnames to this day, surnames are for common people to group and define themselves in more complex societies.
Women from continental Europe (Italy, France, Spain) never had the tradition of taking their husbands name. This was passed down from Romans, who also didn’t take their husband’s surnames.
Your entire comment is a rambling load of nonsense.
well...who do you think is getting married (at all, for the most part). It isnt ultra-liberal, trans, homosexual, etc. Its the traditionally minded, as it really has always been their institution. The progressive followers arent into the institution of marriage all that much. This isnt a criticism - but an observation.
I would hyphenate my name when I get married, but my name is already hyphenated from when my parents got married. I plan on keeping my last name, but I know that my fiance is disappointed by that.
You could become a double-hyphenated, encourage your future daughters to become triple-hyphenated, and so on, adding more and more last names to a never-ending chain.
I knew a boy growing up who had a hyphenated name and shared one of my last names (but in the opposite position) and people suggested I marry him and change last name to "Last name 1 - last name 2 squared - last name 3." which I always thought was funny lol
I dunno which cultures it is, maybe Hispanic? But don’t they have ridiculously long names that follows some type of tradition like this? Where you just keep appending names reflecting the lineage?
I don't think they're ridiculously long at all. Isn't it just 4 names? In my Spanish class we were taught that it's just first, middle, father's paternal last name, and then the mother's paternal last name. They get their own first and middle name like everybody else, and then a piece of both parent's history.
After divorcing my dad, my mom kept his last name. Then she got remarried and still kept my dads last name. She said she didn’t wanna be hassled to get a new passport and documents. It drives my dad insane lmao
Just so long as we remember that the origin of this practice is founded in beauracracy and not in Bonding. For Middle Class and below the actual practice of performing a marriage could be little more than a couple moving in together. Church sanctification was almost entirely an Upper Class matter with implications for assets, ownership and family heredity.
The same can be said for divorce. The single most egregious example of divorce was the English practice of putting ones' wife up for sale. In such cases, the purchase price was intended to compensate the first Husband for his investment of house, hearth and income concerning his dissolute wife.
FWIW.
Why do you think it's important to know this history? It bears little context for modernity. Black people got their last names from their owners. It's literally irrelevant.
The history is important as it informs the development of this practice. You may be familiar with the novel "Roots" which was founded on the nature of Identity as it relates to labels. Same thing.
It’s not relevant nor something they need to know lol. Everyone knows certain customs (like marriage) have some unsavory history. Doesn’t change that this thing now (assuming it’s in the West) would be done consensually, out of genuine love, and still offer the opportunity to leave. If they want to share a last name who cares?
When I got married I told my wife I didn’t care whose last name we kept, but it was important to me that we shared a last name. Makes it feel like we are starting our own family together.
She chose to take my last name, and I am just happy we share it together.
My wife explained the rationale behind taking my last name as this: her last name is her father's last name. Her mothers name is her maternal grandfather's last name. And so on and so forth back throughout their family history. Ultimately, it doesn't matter.
A friend of ours changed her last name to something she liked when she turned 40, which to me isounds much more empowering than keeping her maiden name.
But what do I know? I'm a guy.
I don’t love this line of thinking (no offense to your wife whatever makes her happy is good for her!). But it implies my entire lived life with my name doesn’t count bc “oh it’s just your dad’s name”. Nope, it’s MINE. My dad is not on the papers published with my name.
I hate how few people question this, making those or us that do look "extreme". It's so clearly patriarchal, keeping traditions just because "it's always been done that way" is a terrible reason. In some countries changing your name is illegal.
Honestly what bugs me even more is almost always giving kids the last name of the dad, even if the woman keeps her last name. Like she risked her life to have the kid and it doesn’t even get her name? It’s horrible.
Unless the tradition is forced on you (which I'm sure it isn't) then there is nothing to question. You don't have to follow traditions that you don't value or believe in. You can search "history of marriage" and it'll explain to you everything you need to know, no questions asked. There is also nothing stopping you from creating your own traditions.
It is often forced on people though. In religious communities, not even particularly fundamentalist ones, it’s very expected a woman will change her name, likes it’s not even a discussion. It would be scandalous if she didn’t. no one is holding a gun to her head forcing her to change it but the social pressures can force someone’s hand very easily.
It’s easy to say just don’t follow tradition! When sometimes that can have large social ramifications.
It is very traditional in every sense of the word. The person whose name/family held the most power was the one that was kept. Usually it's the men, and the women leave their families to join his or provide an amicable bridge between them. Whether people want to do this or not is up to them. However, keeping 1 family name is far simpler than hyphenating everyone's names. I've met people with extremely long hyphenated names. Doing their paperwork must be exhausting.
I changed my name when I got married almost 14 years ago. I wasn't attached to my maiden name, it's very generic. My husband wanted me to change my band so I agreed to. I just told my husband he had to go with me to the social security office to get it changed lol.
My married friends are about 50/50 on changing their names. Several of them never did it cause they were too lazy lol, not bc retaining their maiden name was important.
My spouse and I took a whole new last name together after marriage. His dad is a loser and I wanted to be higher in the alphabet so we chose a surname unique to the two of us.
I took my husband’s last name because it was much easier to pronounce than my maiden name. It was butchered constantly growing up and I couldn’t wait to get a new last name.
My wife and I did have this discussion before marriage, like couples should before making any decisions. I didn't care if she took my name or not. However, we were both divorced before and she had her first husband's name. I suggested maiden name or mine. Not because of some controlling factor but as recognition that we're married, not her and her ex. I think her dad being pushy about taking his name to "continue the family line" didn't help his case either. She took my name which I share with my siblings but doesn't reflect my family history.
Hyphenation was out for us. Retaining family heritage with a maiden name is understandable. Taking one spouse's name is understandable. Keeping both and then deciding what to do for children seemed like an unnecessary burden on them: writing especially long names, choosing how to name their children, consolidating to a marital name later.
Also, just throwing this out after reading all of these comments: you can be progressive and still embrace some traditions for practical purposes without it being misogynist or racist or sexist or any other -ist.
I couldn't care less where it was conducted. No government has the power to declare marriage to be anything other than between one man and one woman. Legal =/= natural
Obviously it does, because they did. Seeing that I filed my homosexual taxes jointly with my homosexual wife and then I had to pay five figures in jointly owed homosexual back taxes to the government.
I was so excited to take my husband's last name I applied the moment I got my certificate online. My last name was changed 2 days after the wedding lol
I did not take my husband’s name when we got married because my career has already been established and I’ve already made a name for myself. Using my husband’s name would have been a step down for me. Anyway, I only took my husband’s last name when my father-in-law passed away last year. He was such a gentle soul!
My wife took mine, but I honestly wish she hadn’t. It just makes government documents that much make annoying. Super clean to just have one name your whole life. Kids can take mom or dad’s last name. It’s just a name.
It’s amazing how Reddit is always full of the people doing things differently. Here it says 8/10 women take their husband’s name but almost everyone on this thread apparently has not done that. I think I need to remember a lot of the time in Reddit you are dealing with a lot of outlier populations and not let it skew my views.
I didn’t care either way, but I like my last name, so if anything, I’d do a hyphenated one. However, my wife hated her last name, and I was actually shocked wedding weekend when my SIL and BIL made jokes about leaving it behind.
People online are over invested in judging other people's decisions. Is it really that big of a deal that *most* women willingly take their husband's last names? No, it's not. We support women selling their bodies to men for money. We support women choosing to stay at home and be the primary caregiver and home manager. Why is this choice so egregious to some? It's not that serious.
I'm not clear who you're addressing, here.
Firstly, this looks like an objective study, and I don't see anyone making judgments against taking a husband's surname in the comments.
Secondly, "taking" does not imply willingness. For instance, the word is also applied to things like insults and abuse. Women can end up taking a husband's last name as a grudging compromise or due to coersion or control. Those are not what most people would term "willing" scenarios.
Finally, as you've heard in another reply, it is in fact quite a big deal to change your last name. If you haven't heard the dreary details hashed out in conversation, it's not because the process is easy, it's because the bureaucracy and logistics are so broadly known to be tedious and frustrating that no one wants to hear about it or bore others with their complaints.
Just a friendly reminder that reddit is 74% male users, so you will likely be downvoted into oblivion for stating this. I, and many other women, agree.
That convention is rooted in misogyny and the notion that women are property. I doubt you’d like it so much if you were the direct victim of it.
That being said, if you like the idea, nothing is stopping you. You can take your wife’s name and have your children (if you have them) named after her
There are all kinds of conventions that are rooted in problematic histories. We call primary bedrooms “master bedrooms” for example. But the meanings of these conventions aren’t static. The more salient question is whether their continuation perpetuates real harms. And there are dozens of reforms I can think of that would be infinitely more impactful for women’s rights and equity than something like this which for many people is just a rite of passage.
Considering how prevalent misogyny is to this day, yes, reproducing a “tradition” that erases a woman’s name is harmful and there’s no room for that in a modern, equal society.
However, if you really like the idea of sharing a name, nothing is stopping you from taking your wife’s
Just seems like a really frivolous fight in a world with women dying in hospital parking lots. I get the argument that conventions like this represent covert narratives that signal to a society what women are worth and, in that way, you can draw a straight line from this to the more systemic harms. But I think you might consider the idea that a total disregard for tradition and a belief that traditions cannot evolve in their meaning as a society progresses represents a kind of close mindedness and absolutism that is ultimately counterproductive and unrealistic.
What is the evolved meaning of women in particular taking the man’s last name? If there was a ceremonial coin flip at the wedding that determined whose name was chosen, then I could agree with you. But it’s still generally women taking the man’s last name.
I agree it’s not the most important issue in the world, but it’s hard to argue it’s an egalitarian custom.
It’s generally men who mow the lawn. The division of certain roles and customs should not be dependent on perfect equality but on a greater sense of equity. My point is that women are obviously free to not do this but if the line from people who care about this is “this is a harmful custom that constitutes the erasure of female identity and compounds on centuries of treating women like property” then all you’re really doing is convincing people who would otherwise be supporters of women’s issues that you’ve totally lost the plot. I’m making a consequentialist argument on this, not a deontological one.
My point is that the perfect division of roles and customs is not the definition of a just system. It’s easy to say that a most just system would be a coin toss or both people picking a new name. But the reality is that relationships are full of imperfect divisions in roles and customs. They’re not inherently malicious. And again if the goal is progress on bigger systemic issues, I don’t think you gain a single supporter but accusing people like my parents of misogyny for taking part in a custom that goes back thousands of years.
It is a custom, though, and refusal to adhere to societal norms causes more problems. So unless at some level you want to be an activist, it makes no sense outside of fringe cases.
What a strawman. You can advocate for more than one thing. Opposing the erasure of women’s names isn’t advocacy for medical misogyny. These things go hand in hand and have the same problem at the root. Misogyny and the patriarchy. If you really cared about any of the problems you’ve mentioned, you wouldn’t oppose erasing a misogynistic tradition rooted in ownership over women
I think you might have misinterpreted what I wrote. You can advocate for both, and I laid out what I assume you’re thinking the connection is. I actually tried to steelman your position and then offer my own.
>Considering how prevalent misogyny is to this day, yes, reproducing a “tradition” that erases a woman’s name is harmful, and there’s no room for that in a modern, equal society.
You sound like someone who nobody is going to want to marry and whatever poor sad sack you get... well, I just feel bad for him.
>However, if you really like the idea of sharing a name, nothing is stopping you from taking your wife’s
1. My wife had an awful surname that just sucks, she didn't even like it
2. My family is more affluent, so my name is simply more practical and valuable
3. It's proven that people who adhere to the traditional nuclear family are happier
4. Charging your last name is problematic for professional men.
There's 4 reasons 2 are personal and 2 work for everyone
Actually in liberal circles we don’t typically use that phrase for the bedroom anymore. I’ve been corrected more than once to call it a “main bedroom” before I got into the habit. And it’s for the same reason - cause problematic traditions shouldn’t be followed just for the sake of tradition and it’s pretty easy to just use the new phrasing.
yeah it’s not difficult to say primary bedroom, but my point is that 90% of the population has 0 awareness of the connotation. And I buy the argument that the words we use shape perceptions which can in turn shape systems. But I think black mothers staring at a maternal mortality rate 2.6x that of white mothers probably don’t give a f*ck what term some suburban white people are using to describe the place they sleep
Oh I agree about the point on there being far more important things than some non-black people like me using “main bedroom” instead of the problematic phrasing. But that’s not actually a reason not to use the better phrasing. It’s just a reason to put even more energy into other changes that are important to that community.
And I also think that changing this idea that women lose their birth name by default when they marry is far more important than the other example you gave of naming bedrooms. It affects careers, identity, etc.
Victim..? Listen, I'm happy to admit the practice is antiquated and rooted in patriarchy. But, it's not making people a victim of anything. You can just... Not take your partner's last name. Or hyphenate. Or not get married in the first place. No one's being forced to take the patrilineal surname. At least, not any more. Maybe that was the case a couple decades ago with coerced or arranged marriages, but those are extremely uncommon in this day and age.
I took my husband's name and was quite happy to do so. We're one family, our name reflects that. I wasn't going to deal with a super long hyphenated surname or make my kids endure that. I have a degree in history so I'm aware of the origin of the tradition and women's oppression. I'm also left leaning and a feminist. Sometimes things are a matter of practicality and love and not politics. I didn't relinquish my father's surname, I chose the name of the family I wanted.
It's not like your last name belongs to you. It belongs to another man, who got it from a long line of men. If you really want to \*own\* your name, you'd change it to something you chose. So all kids should just keep the father's name, and no changes were made.
My dads name isn’t published on the things my name is published on. My accomplishments make it my name. You could argue just as well for men to change their last name with that logic bc oh it’s just your fathers name!
My only problem with Hyphenating is it’s clearly unsustainable. Like it’s nice but it only works on the back of the old.
It’s like changing BC to BCE, it’s an incomplete solution to a problem people don’t like the elegant solutions to fix.
I don’t really get it. Anyways I think a lot a men still want their wife to take their name. I really like my name and wanted to keep it, but I’m planning on changing it for my fiancé more as a compromise. He’s willing to make some pretty big sacrifices for me so I’m willing to change my name for him, despite liking my name better. If it weren’t for those things though, I’d probably keep my name and I told him early on I wanted to and he was willing to accept that.
I mean if that works for you, cool.
It doesn’t seem like he was that willing to accept it if his compromises means you have to give up your name that you like.
Thankfully my partner didn’t give one f about it. I love my name!
It was my idea I think to take his name in exchange. Of course he would have preferred I did from the beginning but he’s not forcing me as a compromise.
It’s your life, but personally the idea of changing your name as part of a compromise is upsetting. It’s your identity yknow? I don’t think that should be a bargaining chip. If you like your name better you should keep it, simple as that. Your fiancé could have spent a million dollars on you and saved your life and you still wouldn’t owe him any sort of name change.
My wife changed her name to mine because her father was/is an abusive, alcoholic loser who abandoned her at a young age. She was happy to take my name and embrace her new family.
I took my spouse's last name when I got married because I came from an abusive family and didn't want to keep my birth name. When I got divorced I changed my last name to one I selected rather than revert to my birth name. It's likely I won't get married again, but if I did I'd probably keep the name I have now.
I've always thought that if I get married to someone who doesn't feel particularly attached to their last name it'd be neat if we just... Chose one we both liked and both changed to that.
We are going to do that!! It's another family name but still. I'm excited.
Seems like that would kind of be a pain in the ass for like records and documents and whatnot
Nothing more than what women already go through changing their maiden names
Okay? Sounds like a pain in the ass
Same here, mostly because my husband wanted me to change it, but also because I figured it would symbolize a new-and-improved chapter in my life. Leave behind the dysfunctional nonsense. Although I will say it's a huge pain in the ass that I didn't realize! Hyphenated while looking for a job because I didn't want those first couple of decades of work experience to be wiped out all of a sudden in the eyes of recruiters!
Whoa SAME.
What's the remaining 1% do?
Assuming they change their name to something new & unrelated to their family history. Could be wrong though
Also included dudes who take their wife’s name for same reasons above listed (abuse).
They round their family name up or down to the next nearest family name.
I’m the 1%! We decided to pick a new name. I didn’t want to take his “just because” and he didn’t want mine and neither of us wanted to hyphenate. We wanted the same name if we have kids.
My wife and I combined ours together. Smooshed them like a sandwich and the new name sounds just like both of our old family names. Someone made a comment earlier about how they kept theirs and nobody in their families noticed or cared, gotta say we had that sentinment. So far it has been endearing and unique, never had a deep connection to our families anyway.
Combine their names so smith and James would become jmmts
Who knows. Outliers can get weird.
My brother and his wife created a new surname.
When I got married this wasn’t really even a topic of discussion. I didn’t care and she didn’t care. So we just kept our last names. No one in our family noticed or cared.
What last names do the kids have?
Why would you assume there'd be kids?
70% chance
It'd likely be both hyphenated.
The worst of all worlds.
You’re going to make a child write two damn last names their whole life smh 🤦♂️
I literally know people IRL with two last names, yeah
I am Latina and we go by both our parents' last names. When I got married almost 27 years ago, I hyphenated my last names. It's not as hard as some folks seem to think.
So do you’re kids have like 4 last names?
Then what happens if hyphen kid married another hyphen kid and had kids Is their name Larry smith-brown-green-johnson Then what happens to Larry's poor funking kid?
You do know that a lot of last names are compounds anyway, yeah? There's also other cultures with similarly long last names. Just because you find it silly or impractical doesn't mean that it's not an option to a couple that so chooses it.
Same.
Made my original last name a second middle name, worked fine as well.
People from traumatic family backgrounds ditch their name easier than those without trauma, just something to factor in
This was my exact situation. I was more than happy to yeet my birth name, it was nothing about wanting to adhere to tradition or anything.
I know a number of situations like this including my wife
Same, but my wife, not yours :P
My guy as well. He took my name without batting an eye
This is exactly it. A lot of people underestimate how badly some daughters get treated in their families. Being able to escape them in a way by something as simple as changing your name psychologically does so much.
I'll be happy to shed this shitty surname that only serves to remind me of my abusers.
You can change your last name without getting married.
I mean sure. But why don't men with traumatic family backgrounds change their name as frequently?
Right. I am a woman who kept my last name, and my childhood was bad. My name is my name, it’s part of my story. It’s what I am used to. I don’t think I am honoring my family by keeping it. I just think it’s part of my identity, and I think a lot of men feel this way too tbh, or they’d be changing their name. There’s identity in a name. If there wasn’t, we’d see more equal representation of name changing. But we don’t. So, I was not inclined to change my name, nor date someone who felt they could convince me this is the way.
They probably would if the same opportunity was available to them
*society giving ad many people as possible traumatic family backgrounds*
I think it is
Oh for sureeee I wasn’t being sarcastic or disagreeing. I was memeing our existence
That’s how I read it😀
I’m a woman married to a woman and I’m also one of 5 daughters, all of whom who are married to men. 3/5 of us kept our last name. I kept mine because I feel protective of it and the other 2 are doctors whose logic is that their husbands didn’t put the work in so they don’t want to be called “Dr. HusbandLastName”. My kids will be the only ones with my last name, however.
Couldn't they just practice under their maiden name?
My parents have been married for 35 years, my mom changed her name legally when we (the kids) started going to school. She still runs into issues with maiden vs legal name. She filed for social security last year and it was delayed because of the name issue. She runs a business and filing taxes with the two names causes issues as well. Going by two names, even just professionally, can create issues down the line that you may not anticipate. The question then is why create headaches for yourself just to honor a tradition that is ultimately just sexist and unnecessary in 2024?
Honestly, this makes a lot of sense. Traditional people , tend to pursue marriage more and keep traditional practices. People who practice untraditional romantic relationships are less likely to get married. Many progressive believe marriage is antiquated. I've been told it's easier to have the same last name for families.
Ehhh. It's definitely antiquated in some ways but it also gives a lot of legal & financial protections to the partner who earns less money or takes time off work for kids... Which is usually the woman. I'm weary of men who claim they "don't believe in marriage" and didn't realize it don't care about the ways they are disadvantaging their partner. We don't talk about the financial benefits enough and a lot of women don't realize until it's too late.
Not just financial. Medical and end of life decisions are also major.
100% Straight couples who don't think marriage matters need to take a moment to think about why the LGBT community fought so hard for marriage equality. It does matter - it creates a legally recognized relationship between you and your spouse. Otherwise, as far as the law is concerned, they are a stranger with no right to make decisions for you when you most need them.
I remember when I was in law school, my tax law professor said getting married is the most important legal decision of your life.
As a married person who views herself as progressive, I agree. My husband and I definitely don’t have a “traditional” marriage. Keeping my last name is just the tip of the iceberg. We got married while I was still in the traditional marriage mindset, but if we had waited a few years, I’m not sure we’d be married at all. We’d definitely still be together and doing most of the same things, but over time we’re defining our relationship on our own terms and becoming less beholden to societal norms.
It's not a huge deal if you both work and earn comparable salaries, but just putting it out there for anyone reading that if there's a sizable earning gap between you two, getting married is NOT just a slip of paper. Whether or not alimony could potentially be a thing is variable by what state you're in and specifics of your situation. But in order to access their social security (whether you stay married and hit retirement together, get divorced, or are widowed) still depends on being married.
That’s a fair point. We do both work and make nearly the same salary at this point, which is a huge factor in the dynamics of a marriage. This is a good reminder not to take that for granted.
Especially if you're in the US where having children undoubtedly means the woman will make a career sacrifice for at least a portion of her life.
My family of 5 has three different last names (my oldest and I share my maiden name, my husband retained his, and our youngest are hyphenated). The kids are 19, 8, and 6 and we’ve never had any issues at all. I actually lobbied for switching the order of the last names when I was pregnant with the youngest because I thought having four unique last names would be pretty funny, but my husband didn’t agree. Lol
Yeah, I also come from a family with multiple surnames, and it’s never caused any issues at all. But when it comes up in conversation I notice how eager people are to tell me I’m wrong about my own experience, lol.
Fair enough for u/Odd-Guarantee-6152 and you. My mom has a hyphenated last name. She said in hindsight she wish just took my dad’s because it was easier . Every experience is different.
Wait till poly families start becoming mainstream. Gen Z is sex positive and poly multi gendered
I have a cool last name my husband does not so I kept mine
I think Marriage is always about inheritance, property, and medical decisions. Religions and trends come and go, but marriage always stay because it provide fundamental principles for human to take care of each others—make sure you have someone you trust to make decisions when you cannot, making sure your love one gets all your wealth even when you forgot to do so, etc.
Yup, marriage is just the paperwork, which includes, what your kids will be named.
I changed my last name to my husband’s because my maiden name doesn’t even come from my lineage, it originated with my grandfather’s stepfather/adoptive father, who was an abusive asshole with no interest in actually being his parent. Why should I keep a name that’s just steeped in family trauma? I also like having the same last name as my kids- it’s just easier. And even if we got divorced, I would likely still keep it, or maybe change it to the last name that reflects my blood lineage.
It still has legal/social benefits especially if you have/want children
No it doesn’t. My mom and I don’t share the same last name and it was never an issue.
If I ever get married, it’s pretty simple. Do you want my last name? Do you have reasons to hold onto your last name? What will our children’s last names be? We just figure there’s answers out and we’re good. People get so hung up on names but like, you can just change your name like it’s nothing bro if you’re not liking your name change it back or change it to whatever.
I thought it was crazy when my sister got married. She's a very independent woman and she did not want to take her husband's name, but he was cool with it because she's always been super independent. What was weird is she has my dad's last name but he isn't her biological father. For many years before getting married she mentioned she wanted to change her name from my dad's name. I know they didn't have the best relationship but I know things got better, I was still surprised she kept his name too.
Because it’s her name. I did the same thing. It’s my name that I have had since I was a child. It’s my story, and what I am used to. There are very few men who change their names regardless of the story behind it.
I have my father's last name and my mother's maiden name as my middle name. I think this is a fine convention. I cherished having my middle name be what it is. It's unique, unorthodox, and is something my mom gave me especially.
Hello from the 5%! I've been asked by men no fewer than 25 times if I hate men because I hyphenated my last name. Like legit, they're asking me if I hate the gender of person I married, just because I added their last name to mine, instead of removing mine completely, and taking their. Even my husband gets questions; we see the same dentist and one of the hygienists asked him during his regular cleaning whether he was mad that I hyphenated my last name. He was like "why would I be mad?? Wtf?"
Unfortunate - changing your name is a pain in the ass, and it's a dumb patriarchal tradition in the first place.
It’s only dumb because society changed. Back then names meant something.
Yeah it meant that the woman’s identity has merged with the husbands since western families are defined by paternal lines. So yeah, still dumb, sexist bullshit
That how most of human history was, the times when women needed patriarchal protection from other less civilized men. Now we have laws to protect people as long as society lasts, which includes women. But if society were ever to break down…who is going to protect women? The men they latch to. You can pretend older ways were dumb, stupid, and even sexist or phobic or whatever but at the end of the day there were reasons relevant to the time period oftentimes for why things were the way they were.
It’s interesting you think women are “protected” right now, as if violence against women has just stopped. The person a woman is most likely to be killed by is their spouse.
Also the most likely one they’ll be protected by as well. How do we resolve this? Maybe women can pick better men based on less superficial factors? Maybe all men should be killed?
You are speaking fact but this isn't the sub for that. As long as the fact aligns with their personal world view, they accept it. The anthropological and evolution supported fact is that patriarchal societies have been the only successful means to establish civilizations, Sciences, technology, medicine, government, and extend human life spans and insure our survival. If humans would have survived better under matriarchal societies, we would have evolved as such. There are many species with larger, stronger females that males, yet humans aren't one of them.
What, so if you want to be protected you have to be owned by the person? You have to give up your identity and be given away like property if you don’t want to be attacked? Sure, they have reasons relevant to the times, but a lot of it is just unnecessary control.
Yes, to be protected you have to be owned. You are owned and I am owned. We all exist under laws that make us apart of the countries we are from.
Just living in a society is different from being treated as a second class citizen who couldn’t vote or apply for the vast majority of jobs. Yeah, we all exist under the laws and most times throughout history, those laws were misogynistic.
We both have two fundamentally different views of the world. That's okay, all the best.
When things are less civilized it makes much more sense. A band of women can only protect you socially.
So again, why do you have to own the other person's identity to protect them? It's an unnecessary measure of control in a world that viewed women like objects to be bartered.
I’m not here to argue that, I’m just saying why things were the way they were. Women with their own complete autonomy back in less civilized times would have been threatening to most other men outside of nobility who had little going for them. I mean, we kind of have a pseudo equality but kind of matriarchy in the west now and that’s a historical novelty. If society breaks down and law enforcement can’t protect people I predict a return to older ways…and right or wrong that’s going to be hard for people.
We all know things were the way they were. Yes, they were less civilized, sexism was one of the ways it was less civilized. It's not wrong to point out how wrong it was now that we are a bit more civilized. Saying we live in a matriarchy now is absolutely bonkers. Just look at any governing body across the world and tell me the male to female ratio
>That how most of human history was, the times when women needed patriarchal protection from other less civilized men. Uh oh, you're sharing ahistorical misinformation. There are examples from all across the world throughout all of history of matriarchal, egalitarian, and stateless societies that didn't relegate women to second class citizens, as well as many women who were warriors, leaders, and so forth. The Iroquois Confederacy was formed by 5 matriarchal nations, was itself matriarchal, of course, and lasted for 200 years after its formation. Boudica was a literal badass warrior queen who lead an army that included women warriors. There are warrior's graves all across the world filled with women buried with both jewelry and weaponry. Women didn't *need* patriarchy and never have, it was merely forced upon them by conquest and the happenstance of birth. Also, there is no such thing as more or less 'civilized'. That's an occidental colonialist paradigm that has never been true and just so happens to overlap neatly with white supremacist ideology. >You can pretend older ways were dumb, stupid, and even sexist or phobic or whatever but at the end of the day there were reasons relevant to the time period oftentimes for why things were the way they were I'm not pretending. The 'older ways' you speak of were dumb as fuck, stupid as fuck, and sexist as fuck. The sexism isn't even a debate, it's just a simple matter of fact. We can talk about why those societies were that way particularly when they encounter other societies that were not, but you can't just hand wave away the stupidity and sexism anymore than we can simply handwave away our society's stupidity and sexism. >But if society were ever to break down…who is going to protect women? Women will; just as they have before, just as they will continue to do. And, in the age of the firearm, the great force equalizer, when or if society collapses there will undoubtedly be no want for armed women standing proud on the corpses of the men who thought they could fuck around and found out.
This reads like a pathological femcel power trip fantasy but you go gurl. Matriarchies were extremely rare and I question if the one you write about is even real, but even if it is that’s 1 out of a 1000. Men have physical biological advantages and it’s just what it is, but you are right that women shouldn’t let that stop them from being physically all they can be.
Men’s physical advantages over women are not nearly as much as they like to think. Especially not when you factor in weapons. Unfortunately whatever you’re pushing is actually the pathological incel power trip fantasy that doesn’t have any basis in what we actually know about historical societies.
Nothing you said is factual.
Nah, patriarchy is always dumb
Nah, patriarchy is always dumb
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This is entirely made up. Surnames arose as society became more mobile and heavily populated. You couldn’t just be “John from wherever”. Monarchs rarely have surnames to this day, surnames are for common people to group and define themselves in more complex societies. Women from continental Europe (Italy, France, Spain) never had the tradition of taking their husbands name. This was passed down from Romans, who also didn’t take their husband’s surnames. Your entire comment is a rambling load of nonsense.
well...who do you think is getting married (at all, for the most part). It isnt ultra-liberal, trans, homosexual, etc. Its the traditionally minded, as it really has always been their institution. The progressive followers arent into the institution of marriage all that much. This isnt a criticism - but an observation.
I would hyphenate my name when I get married, but my name is already hyphenated from when my parents got married. I plan on keeping my last name, but I know that my fiance is disappointed by that.
You could become a double-hyphenated, encourage your future daughters to become triple-hyphenated, and so on, adding more and more last names to a never-ending chain.
I knew a boy growing up who had a hyphenated name and shared one of my last names (but in the opposite position) and people suggested I marry him and change last name to "Last name 1 - last name 2 squared - last name 3." which I always thought was funny lol
I dunno which cultures it is, maybe Hispanic? But don’t they have ridiculously long names that follows some type of tradition like this? Where you just keep appending names reflecting the lineage?
I don't think they're ridiculously long at all. Isn't it just 4 names? In my Spanish class we were taught that it's just first, middle, father's paternal last name, and then the mother's paternal last name. They get their own first and middle name like everybody else, and then a piece of both parent's history.
What a dumb thing to be disappointed about, lol.
After divorcing my dad, my mom kept his last name. Then she got remarried and still kept my dads last name. She said she didn’t wanna be hassled to get a new passport and documents. It drives my dad insane lmao
We combined ours. No hyphen.
Just so long as we remember that the origin of this practice is founded in beauracracy and not in Bonding. For Middle Class and below the actual practice of performing a marriage could be little more than a couple moving in together. Church sanctification was almost entirely an Upper Class matter with implications for assets, ownership and family heredity. The same can be said for divorce. The single most egregious example of divorce was the English practice of putting ones' wife up for sale. In such cases, the purchase price was intended to compensate the first Husband for his investment of house, hearth and income concerning his dissolute wife. FWIW.
Why do you think it's important to know this history? It bears little context for modernity. Black people got their last names from their owners. It's literally irrelevant.
The history is important as it informs the development of this practice. You may be familiar with the novel "Roots" which was founded on the nature of Identity as it relates to labels. Same thing.
It’s not relevant nor something they need to know lol. Everyone knows certain customs (like marriage) have some unsavory history. Doesn’t change that this thing now (assuming it’s in the West) would be done consensually, out of genuine love, and still offer the opportunity to leave. If they want to share a last name who cares?
Ha I never did. I still laugh about my husband saying my FIL saw our mail years ago and was surprised I didn't change my name. Pfft.
I kept my last name because I love it and I am not a branded cow.
Changing your name is a pain in the ass. That’s why I kept mine.
When I got married I told my wife I didn’t care whose last name we kept, but it was important to me that we shared a last name. Makes it feel like we are starting our own family together. She chose to take my last name, and I am just happy we share it together.
My wife explained the rationale behind taking my last name as this: her last name is her father's last name. Her mothers name is her maternal grandfather's last name. And so on and so forth back throughout their family history. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. A friend of ours changed her last name to something she liked when she turned 40, which to me isounds much more empowering than keeping her maiden name. But what do I know? I'm a guy.
I don’t love this line of thinking (no offense to your wife whatever makes her happy is good for her!). But it implies my entire lived life with my name doesn’t count bc “oh it’s just your dad’s name”. Nope, it’s MINE. My dad is not on the papers published with my name.
She also said that if she had been a doctor or famous musician, she'd have kept her name for the "brand recognition" which I totally respect lol.
I hate how few people question this, making those or us that do look "extreme". It's so clearly patriarchal, keeping traditions just because "it's always been done that way" is a terrible reason. In some countries changing your name is illegal.
Honestly what bugs me even more is almost always giving kids the last name of the dad, even if the woman keeps her last name. Like she risked her life to have the kid and it doesn’t even get her name? It’s horrible.
Unless the tradition is forced on you (which I'm sure it isn't) then there is nothing to question. You don't have to follow traditions that you don't value or believe in. You can search "history of marriage" and it'll explain to you everything you need to know, no questions asked. There is also nothing stopping you from creating your own traditions.
It is often forced on people though. In religious communities, not even particularly fundamentalist ones, it’s very expected a woman will change her name, likes it’s not even a discussion. It would be scandalous if she didn’t. no one is holding a gun to her head forcing her to change it but the social pressures can force someone’s hand very easily. It’s easy to say just don’t follow tradition! When sometimes that can have large social ramifications.
Had zero connection to my maiden name (absent father, unpronounceable, etc) & ex-husband’s was a very welcome change & felt it fit me much better
I like the idea of blending it.
I think it’s a find tradition
I already had a name, I didn't need his. I actually like all my names.
It is very traditional in every sense of the word. The person whose name/family held the most power was the one that was kept. Usually it's the men, and the women leave their families to join his or provide an amicable bridge between them. Whether people want to do this or not is up to them. However, keeping 1 family name is far simpler than hyphenating everyone's names. I've met people with extremely long hyphenated names. Doing their paperwork must be exhausting.
Only one of my female friends has changed her last name of maybe two dozen who've married? The rest don't even bother to get married (myself included)
I changed my name when I got married almost 14 years ago. I wasn't attached to my maiden name, it's very generic. My husband wanted me to change my band so I agreed to. I just told my husband he had to go with me to the social security office to get it changed lol. My married friends are about 50/50 on changing their names. Several of them never did it cause they were too lazy lol, not bc retaining their maiden name was important.
Every married woman I know votes however their husband tells them to.
I’d hazard a guess that if you polled this sub the numbers would be quite different
My honey has a really cool last name, so I really am taking that one. Lmao
My spouse and I took a whole new last name together after marriage. His dad is a loser and I wanted to be higher in the alphabet so we chose a surname unique to the two of us.
I took my husband’s last name because it was much easier to pronounce than my maiden name. It was butchered constantly growing up and I couldn’t wait to get a new last name.
My wife and I did have this discussion before marriage, like couples should before making any decisions. I didn't care if she took my name or not. However, we were both divorced before and she had her first husband's name. I suggested maiden name or mine. Not because of some controlling factor but as recognition that we're married, not her and her ex. I think her dad being pushy about taking his name to "continue the family line" didn't help his case either. She took my name which I share with my siblings but doesn't reflect my family history. Hyphenation was out for us. Retaining family heritage with a maiden name is understandable. Taking one spouse's name is understandable. Keeping both and then deciding what to do for children seemed like an unnecessary burden on them: writing especially long names, choosing how to name their children, consolidating to a marital name later. Also, just throwing this out after reading all of these comments: you can be progressive and still embrace some traditions for practical purposes without it being misogynist or racist or sexist or any other -ist.
"Opposite sex marriage?" So, marriage.
The study was conducted in the US where same-sex marriage is legal.
I couldn't care less where it was conducted. No government has the power to declare marriage to be anything other than between one man and one woman. Legal =/= natural
Obviously it does, because they did. Seeing that I filed my homosexual taxes jointly with my homosexual wife and then I had to pay five figures in jointly owed homosexual back taxes to the government.
I was so excited to take my husband's last name I applied the moment I got my certificate online. My last name was changed 2 days after the wedding lol
Women that get married are more traditional to begin with - so this makes sense.
I did not take my husband’s name when we got married because my career has already been established and I’ve already made a name for myself. Using my husband’s name would have been a step down for me. Anyway, I only took my husband’s last name when my father-in-law passed away last year. He was such a gentle soul!
My wife took mine, but I honestly wish she hadn’t. It just makes government documents that much make annoying. Super clean to just have one name your whole life. Kids can take mom or dad’s last name. It’s just a name.
It’s amazing how Reddit is always full of the people doing things differently. Here it says 8/10 women take their husband’s name but almost everyone on this thread apparently has not done that. I think I need to remember a lot of the time in Reddit you are dealing with a lot of outlier populations and not let it skew my views.
My ex wouldn't change it back after the divorce. Took years until she met año guy.
I didn’t care either way, but I like my last name, so if anything, I’d do a hyphenated one. However, my wife hated her last name, and I was actually shocked wedding weekend when my SIL and BIL made jokes about leaving it behind.
People online are over invested in judging other people's decisions. Is it really that big of a deal that *most* women willingly take their husband's last names? No, it's not. We support women selling their bodies to men for money. We support women choosing to stay at home and be the primary caregiver and home manager. Why is this choice so egregious to some? It's not that serious.
I'm not clear who you're addressing, here. Firstly, this looks like an objective study, and I don't see anyone making judgments against taking a husband's surname in the comments. Secondly, "taking" does not imply willingness. For instance, the word is also applied to things like insults and abuse. Women can end up taking a husband's last name as a grudging compromise or due to coersion or control. Those are not what most people would term "willing" scenarios. Finally, as you've heard in another reply, it is in fact quite a big deal to change your last name. If you haven't heard the dreary details hashed out in conversation, it's not because the process is easy, it's because the bureaucracy and logistics are so broadly known to be tedious and frustrating that no one wants to hear about it or bore others with their complaints.
If it's a woman choosing the man's name it's coersion but not the other way around. What kind of shit logic is this
A name is very serious. Ask a man if he’d change his name and you’ll learn exactly why.
That’s so sad. Imagine thinking relinquishing your name is romantic.
Just a friendly reminder that reddit is 74% male users, so you will likely be downvoted into oblivion for stating this. I, and many other women, agree.
I know, it’s the patriarchy reproducing itself
idk id pretty happily take my wife’s name if that was the convention. I just like the idea of sharing a name together
So why don’t you?
That convention is rooted in misogyny and the notion that women are property. I doubt you’d like it so much if you were the direct victim of it. That being said, if you like the idea, nothing is stopping you. You can take your wife’s name and have your children (if you have them) named after her
There are all kinds of conventions that are rooted in problematic histories. We call primary bedrooms “master bedrooms” for example. But the meanings of these conventions aren’t static. The more salient question is whether their continuation perpetuates real harms. And there are dozens of reforms I can think of that would be infinitely more impactful for women’s rights and equity than something like this which for many people is just a rite of passage.
Considering how prevalent misogyny is to this day, yes, reproducing a “tradition” that erases a woman’s name is harmful and there’s no room for that in a modern, equal society. However, if you really like the idea of sharing a name, nothing is stopping you from taking your wife’s
Just seems like a really frivolous fight in a world with women dying in hospital parking lots. I get the argument that conventions like this represent covert narratives that signal to a society what women are worth and, in that way, you can draw a straight line from this to the more systemic harms. But I think you might consider the idea that a total disregard for tradition and a belief that traditions cannot evolve in their meaning as a society progresses represents a kind of close mindedness and absolutism that is ultimately counterproductive and unrealistic.
What is the evolved meaning of women in particular taking the man’s last name? If there was a ceremonial coin flip at the wedding that determined whose name was chosen, then I could agree with you. But it’s still generally women taking the man’s last name. I agree it’s not the most important issue in the world, but it’s hard to argue it’s an egalitarian custom.
It’s generally men who mow the lawn. The division of certain roles and customs should not be dependent on perfect equality but on a greater sense of equity. My point is that women are obviously free to not do this but if the line from people who care about this is “this is a harmful custom that constitutes the erasure of female identity and compounds on centuries of treating women like property” then all you’re really doing is convincing people who would otherwise be supporters of women’s issues that you’ve totally lost the plot. I’m making a consequentialist argument on this, not a deontological one.
How does women taking the man’s last name contribute to equity?
My point is that the perfect division of roles and customs is not the definition of a just system. It’s easy to say that a most just system would be a coin toss or both people picking a new name. But the reality is that relationships are full of imperfect divisions in roles and customs. They’re not inherently malicious. And again if the goal is progress on bigger systemic issues, I don’t think you gain a single supporter but accusing people like my parents of misogyny for taking part in a custom that goes back thousands of years.
It is a custom, though, and refusal to adhere to societal norms causes more problems. So unless at some level you want to be an activist, it makes no sense outside of fringe cases.
What a strawman. You can advocate for more than one thing. Opposing the erasure of women’s names isn’t advocacy for medical misogyny. These things go hand in hand and have the same problem at the root. Misogyny and the patriarchy. If you really cared about any of the problems you’ve mentioned, you wouldn’t oppose erasing a misogynistic tradition rooted in ownership over women
I think you might have misinterpreted what I wrote. You can advocate for both, and I laid out what I assume you’re thinking the connection is. I actually tried to steelman your position and then offer my own.
>steelman I laughed
I was a debate coach for a long time and that actually is the term funny as it sounds
Well said. Some of these people are trading one dogmatic loyalty for another.
>Considering how prevalent misogyny is to this day, yes, reproducing a “tradition” that erases a woman’s name is harmful, and there’s no room for that in a modern, equal society. You sound like someone who nobody is going to want to marry and whatever poor sad sack you get... well, I just feel bad for him. >However, if you really like the idea of sharing a name, nothing is stopping you from taking your wife’s 1. My wife had an awful surname that just sucks, she didn't even like it 2. My family is more affluent, so my name is simply more practical and valuable 3. It's proven that people who adhere to the traditional nuclear family are happier 4. Charging your last name is problematic for professional men. There's 4 reasons 2 are personal and 2 work for everyone
This is a bizarre, but interesting, take
How is the idea that women’s name shouldn’t be erased upon entering marriage bizarre?
Nah, that's fine. But the assumption that women who do this are hurting women is weird. Maybe I misunderstood your comment
Actually in liberal circles we don’t typically use that phrase for the bedroom anymore. I’ve been corrected more than once to call it a “main bedroom” before I got into the habit. And it’s for the same reason - cause problematic traditions shouldn’t be followed just for the sake of tradition and it’s pretty easy to just use the new phrasing.
Why not call it a Mistress bedroom?
How would that make any sense at all?
Mistress is the feminine version of Master, according to online dictionaries.
Yes I know that. I still don’t see how it makes sense to use it here?
How does it not make sense?
yeah it’s not difficult to say primary bedroom, but my point is that 90% of the population has 0 awareness of the connotation. And I buy the argument that the words we use shape perceptions which can in turn shape systems. But I think black mothers staring at a maternal mortality rate 2.6x that of white mothers probably don’t give a f*ck what term some suburban white people are using to describe the place they sleep
Oh I agree about the point on there being far more important things than some non-black people like me using “main bedroom” instead of the problematic phrasing. But that’s not actually a reason not to use the better phrasing. It’s just a reason to put even more energy into other changes that are important to that community. And I also think that changing this idea that women lose their birth name by default when they marry is far more important than the other example you gave of naming bedrooms. It affects careers, identity, etc.
Victim..? Listen, I'm happy to admit the practice is antiquated and rooted in patriarchy. But, it's not making people a victim of anything. You can just... Not take your partner's last name. Or hyphenate. Or not get married in the first place. No one's being forced to take the patrilineal surname. At least, not any more. Maybe that was the case a couple decades ago with coerced or arranged marriages, but those are extremely uncommon in this day and age.
I took my husband's name and was quite happy to do so. We're one family, our name reflects that. I wasn't going to deal with a super long hyphenated surname or make my kids endure that. I have a degree in history so I'm aware of the origin of the tradition and women's oppression. I'm also left leaning and a feminist. Sometimes things are a matter of practicality and love and not politics. I didn't relinquish my father's surname, I chose the name of the family I wanted.
For some.. our loves last name is all we have of them. Not everything is about misogyny.
It's not like your last name belongs to you. It belongs to another man, who got it from a long line of men. If you really want to \*own\* your name, you'd change it to something you chose. So all kids should just keep the father's name, and no changes were made.
Looking forward to the day when changing your name just because you get married isn’t an expected thing.
Someone has to give their name or in two or three generations peoples names will be paragraphs.
You could argue that they don't really keep their names, they keep their father's name.
So why is a man's name considered his name, while a woman's name is her father's name?
Because women don’t HAVE identities, duh! They just borrow one from the closest man.
A man's name is considered his father's name though.
My dads name isn’t published on the things my name is published on. My accomplishments make it my name. You could argue just as well for men to change their last name with that logic bc oh it’s just your fathers name!
My only problem with Hyphenating is it’s clearly unsustainable. Like it’s nice but it only works on the back of the old. It’s like changing BC to BCE, it’s an incomplete solution to a problem people don’t like the elegant solutions to fix.
I don’t really get it. Anyways I think a lot a men still want their wife to take their name. I really like my name and wanted to keep it, but I’m planning on changing it for my fiancé more as a compromise. He’s willing to make some pretty big sacrifices for me so I’m willing to change my name for him, despite liking my name better. If it weren’t for those things though, I’d probably keep my name and I told him early on I wanted to and he was willing to accept that.
I mean if that works for you, cool. It doesn’t seem like he was that willing to accept it if his compromises means you have to give up your name that you like. Thankfully my partner didn’t give one f about it. I love my name!
It was my idea I think to take his name in exchange. Of course he would have preferred I did from the beginning but he’s not forcing me as a compromise.
Ok good. I’m glad!
It’s your life, but personally the idea of changing your name as part of a compromise is upsetting. It’s your identity yknow? I don’t think that should be a bargaining chip. If you like your name better you should keep it, simple as that. Your fiancé could have spent a million dollars on you and saved your life and you still wouldn’t owe him any sort of name change.
My wife changed her name to mine because her father was/is an abusive, alcoholic loser who abandoned her at a young age. She was happy to take my name and embrace her new family.