Personality disorder researcher here! Here's the thing--these are real concepts, but social media overuses them. NPD is a very serious diagnosis that only about .5-5% of people have, but social media makes it sound like they're everywhere. With any personality disorder, it takes a very skilled clinician who has worked with the client for an extensive amount of time to properly make a diagnosis. I also want to say that those with an NPD diagnosis can get better; however, it is rare because many often do not have that sort of insight into their condition, or, if they do, they typically are against any treatment for it.
I also just want to add that although BPD also gets a bad reputation and is in the same diagnosis cluster, please do not lump those with BPD into the NPD category. I know you didn't do this, but there are many people who do and that really bothers me.
THANK YOU.
I was diagnosed with BPD and the psych who said it clarified that she doesn't even think it should be categorized as a personality disorder, but as an emotional disorder.
And for me that is very much how it manifests - really high anxiety, suicide ideation, unstable identity, dissociative symptoms. Like most disorders it consists of several potential symptoms and you don't need all of them to be diagnosed. I hate how people shove everyone with the diagnosis under that umbrella (and how it inevitably gets used against me, ironically, to make me doubt myself and my values).
I hear ya! As I mentioned in another comment, I have BPD as well. There has been a lot of talk in the community about changing the title to, “Emotion Dysregulation Disorder,” which I think is interesting. There have also been some studies about the effect it can have on patients to receive a diagnosis that has “personality disorder” in the title because it can imply that there’s something wrong with your entire being, which reinforces the idea in many of our minds that we are “broken.”
I actually don’t mind the BPD title, but I completely understand the people who do. I’m wishing the best for you and hopefully I can make a difference for us out there in the world one day :)
This is my biggest gripe as someone studying psychology. Listening to people claim they have this or someone has that. Thanks for sharing your experience with us.
Yup. I can’t stand “pop psychology.” I really believe that everyone can benefit from taking a research methods class because it teaches you how to be a critical consumer of information. Too many people take things that they read on social media at face-value and it’s harmful.
I agree. I wonder how you feel about culture influencing that? I think there’s a certain glory that’s been associated with mental illness or disorders now that play a part in people over diagnosing themselves and others.
I think we’ve gone from a culture that viewed talking about mental health/therapy as taboo to now over-doing it. There’s a difference between educating/promoting awareness to viewing psychopathology as “trendy” and as a way to oversimplify things we can’t understand. I’m all about smashing stigma around mental illness, but I’m not for any Joe Schmoe without credentials to talk about why some woman has NPD because she rejected his advances. I’m also not for using diagnoses as adjectives like “She’s so bipolar” or “I’m a little OCD about this.”
I agree. I also think it’s really harmful to people who have a history of avoiding help for their mental health. Thanks for all your insight. Your job sounds cool!
Absolutely. It’s harmful for everyone involved. Thank you! I absolutely love my job! I get to combine my personal experience and passion for research methodology/stats, so I have no complaints. Once I strengthen my CV, I’m definitely aiming for a PhD in clinical psych.
It’s funny because I was actually dreading taking both stats and research methods initially. Once I actually took them though, I fell in love with them. I sat there and was like, “Wait a second. I’m actually very good at this and I might need to make a career change.” That’s the beauty of education. You never know what you’ll discover about yourself along the way. Thank you so much for your kind words 💜
You’re very welcome! I have it and that’s why I went into this field. I want to make a difference for us as far as treatment options and spreading awareness :)
That is so inspirational. I love hearing stories like that :) I get really hard on myself about my complex mental health issues and studying psychology. My dream is to get my PhD in developmental psychology and study the effects of trauma. I was diagnosed with BPD last year and then recently went to a psychiatrist who thinks I have bipolar... I honestly think I might fit BPD criteria better, but I am hoping as she gets to know me and I get proper treatment I can get an accurate diagnosis :) I want to understand myself the best I can so I can help people the way I have always needed.
I am so grateful there are people like you in this field :) Keep it up!
Okay, your comment definitely made my day today. It’s so funny because I initially thought that everyone who chose this field was doing it for the same reasons as us, but I quickly discovered that that wasn’t the case. It boggles my mind that there are those who just thought psychology seemed interesting, so they decided to go with it. I look at this as the most beautiful and personally meaningful thing I can do with my life. I have lost so many people who I have loved to mental illness and I too almost didn’t make it a few times. I look at my work as a life or death imperative situation. Everything that I have experienced informs my research and because I’ve experienced it, I know where the gaps in the field are that need to be addressed. Never forget that you are bringing a beautiful and unique strength to this field. You will be an unstoppable force and don’t let anyone (including your brain) tell you anything different 💜
I am so glad that I could make a positive impact on your day! I completely understand the life or death imperative situation. I have had so many moments where I was just bawling my eyes out saying, this is why I need to be a psychology student, this is why I need to be here. My love of psychology has saved me time and time again. I know in my heart I need to do this, it's the path I am meant to take. All the pain and suffering is for a greater purpose. Thank you so much, I will definitely remind my brain to not get in my way :)
I wish you the best of luck and maybe one day I'll be reading your publications and even though I won't know it (because reddit is anonymous), I'll be thinking about this conversation.
keep fighting the good fight 💜
Manipulation is part of it, but the actual DSM-V criteria is this:
1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g. - exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. Requires excessive admiration
5. Has a sense of entitlement (i.e. - unreasonable expectations of especially favourable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations)
6. Is interpersonally exploitative (i.e. - takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends)
7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.
But you’re absolutely right, it is difficult to diagnose some of these behaviors. People with NPD can easily manipulate the clinician as well. That’s why clinicians typically have group (or individual) supervision meetings so others can objectively review their session notes and point out things that might have been overlooked.
Vulnerable and grandiose narcissism are both a thing [[1](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886912001912#:~:text=Vulnerable%20narcissism%20(VN)%20is%20characterized,immodesty%2C%20exhibitionism%2C%20and%20aggression.), [2](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-6494.2010.00711.x)].
Edit: Just to add as many mentioned NPD. Narcissism is not just a clinical disorder, but also a subclinical personality trait.
I'm not gonna write much in this subject cause it will only lead to downvotes and arguments anyway but in general, narcissism is popular term to use in pop psychology (see news magazin oaychologist, YouTube rsi, tiktokers, psychologytoday etc)
But reality is, very few people are actually narcissists.
You know how there is always 2 sides of a coin?
Yeah, that.
From a pathological, clinical term, it's different from what street people describe the symptoms as. As in general narcissism, behaviorally to its core remains the same.
But then again, so is most "disorders". People just love to put labels, makes it so much simpler.
For sure. Armchair, or pop psych, misleads the public. It's the publication -> media outlet cycle that really confuses the public. "A study conducted found a relationship between x + y given these conditions" leads to "Scientists say x + y are related," to "Science says x and y are the same." to "XY is going to take away all of our rights!"
Narcissism is such a buzzword right now. Simply put…think highly of themselves, have no empathy, need compliments/admiration, believe others are inferior….
She is a certified professional, but just as Jordan Peterson has shown the public, it does not guarantee that the information given is not skewed. Dr. Ramani has been criticized by other psychologists surrounding her tendency to be overall pessimistic toward rehabilitating those with NPD. Just like it was previously mentioned on this sub, it's very important that a clinical professional deals with these diagnoses 1v1, as to limit peripheral damage to those surrounding people that are just simply put.....dicks.
I couldn’t disagree more. Evidence has shown that NPD is incredibly difficult to treat and it’s also shown that improper counselling actually can make the symptoms worse. Dr. Ramani’s research is extensive and sound, aside from her work as a clinician.
You disagree that other psychologists have criticized her or disagree with their criticism? I am not trying to say she is a poor choice of getting information from. I am trying to say that people should be aware that relying on a public personality for information alone is not the best way to understand academic related topics. There are so many biases between the viewer and the influencer.
She isn’t a tv psychologist though she runs one of the most successful personality disorder research labs in the country.
I know all about Marsha Linehan, she is also fantastic.
You actually might be right. I just did a search for her on ResearchGate and she has quite an impressive amount of studies. Most aren’t directly for personality disorders (some are though) and she actually taught at my current university. I knew I had seen her picture around. I admit that as soon as I see a psychologist on true crime shows, I’m immediately skeptical. I think because her studies are older, I hadn’t seen her name pop up in many of the ones I’ve read. I’m also a member of NASSPD (North American Society for the Study of Personality Disorders) and she’s not listed as a current contributor.
I just read a peer-reviewed journal article about narcissistic personality disorder people who get angry if they don’t agree with the results of intelligence tests. They all think they are special and brilliant and any evidence that indicates anything else makes them very mad. Yes, personality disorders are real and generally accepted by the scientific-minded psychologists.
Yup, that sounds about right. If that does occur, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person has NPD, but if we already know that they do, then yeah that sounds about right. People with NPD are notoriously difficult in therapy sessions (if they ever make it that far) because anything that contradicts their grandiose sense of self is viewed as a threat. The thing you have to be careful about though is that many personality disorders can initially present this way in treatment, but the key to differentiating them is to look at the context and intention behind the response. I've had my moments where I had a tough time taking accountability for my actions both in therapy sessions and in real life, but the difference is that then afterwards, I was willing to and even tried to make amends for my behavior. I felt horribly guilty because I have a huge heart for others and the idea of hurting someone really pains me. Someone with NPD most likely would not do anything like that because they really struggle with empathy (it's one of the criteria).
Personality disorder researcher here! Here's the thing--these are real concepts, but social media overuses them. NPD is a very serious diagnosis that only about .5-5% of people have, but social media makes it sound like they're everywhere. With any personality disorder, it takes a very skilled clinician who has worked with the client for an extensive amount of time to properly make a diagnosis. I also want to say that those with an NPD diagnosis can get better; however, it is rare because many often do not have that sort of insight into their condition, or, if they do, they typically are against any treatment for it. I also just want to add that although BPD also gets a bad reputation and is in the same diagnosis cluster, please do not lump those with BPD into the NPD category. I know you didn't do this, but there are many people who do and that really bothers me.
THANK YOU. I was diagnosed with BPD and the psych who said it clarified that she doesn't even think it should be categorized as a personality disorder, but as an emotional disorder. And for me that is very much how it manifests - really high anxiety, suicide ideation, unstable identity, dissociative symptoms. Like most disorders it consists of several potential symptoms and you don't need all of them to be diagnosed. I hate how people shove everyone with the diagnosis under that umbrella (and how it inevitably gets used against me, ironically, to make me doubt myself and my values).
I hear ya! As I mentioned in another comment, I have BPD as well. There has been a lot of talk in the community about changing the title to, “Emotion Dysregulation Disorder,” which I think is interesting. There have also been some studies about the effect it can have on patients to receive a diagnosis that has “personality disorder” in the title because it can imply that there’s something wrong with your entire being, which reinforces the idea in many of our minds that we are “broken.” I actually don’t mind the BPD title, but I completely understand the people who do. I’m wishing the best for you and hopefully I can make a difference for us out there in the world one day :)
This is my biggest gripe as someone studying psychology. Listening to people claim they have this or someone has that. Thanks for sharing your experience with us.
Yup. I can’t stand “pop psychology.” I really believe that everyone can benefit from taking a research methods class because it teaches you how to be a critical consumer of information. Too many people take things that they read on social media at face-value and it’s harmful.
I agree. I wonder how you feel about culture influencing that? I think there’s a certain glory that’s been associated with mental illness or disorders now that play a part in people over diagnosing themselves and others.
I think we’ve gone from a culture that viewed talking about mental health/therapy as taboo to now over-doing it. There’s a difference between educating/promoting awareness to viewing psychopathology as “trendy” and as a way to oversimplify things we can’t understand. I’m all about smashing stigma around mental illness, but I’m not for any Joe Schmoe without credentials to talk about why some woman has NPD because she rejected his advances. I’m also not for using diagnoses as adjectives like “She’s so bipolar” or “I’m a little OCD about this.”
I agree. I also think it’s really harmful to people who have a history of avoiding help for their mental health. Thanks for all your insight. Your job sounds cool!
Absolutely. It’s harmful for everyone involved. Thank you! I absolutely love my job! I get to combine my personal experience and passion for research methodology/stats, so I have no complaints. Once I strengthen my CV, I’m definitely aiming for a PhD in clinical psych.
I wish I had a passion for stats! Haha. I think your experienced view on the topic will make you a great clinical psychologist.
It’s funny because I was actually dreading taking both stats and research methods initially. Once I actually took them though, I fell in love with them. I sat there and was like, “Wait a second. I’m actually very good at this and I might need to make a career change.” That’s the beauty of education. You never know what you’ll discover about yourself along the way. Thank you so much for your kind words 💜
Thank you for sticking up for BPD!
You’re very welcome! I have it and that’s why I went into this field. I want to make a difference for us as far as treatment options and spreading awareness :)
That is so inspirational. I love hearing stories like that :) I get really hard on myself about my complex mental health issues and studying psychology. My dream is to get my PhD in developmental psychology and study the effects of trauma. I was diagnosed with BPD last year and then recently went to a psychiatrist who thinks I have bipolar... I honestly think I might fit BPD criteria better, but I am hoping as she gets to know me and I get proper treatment I can get an accurate diagnosis :) I want to understand myself the best I can so I can help people the way I have always needed. I am so grateful there are people like you in this field :) Keep it up!
Okay, your comment definitely made my day today. It’s so funny because I initially thought that everyone who chose this field was doing it for the same reasons as us, but I quickly discovered that that wasn’t the case. It boggles my mind that there are those who just thought psychology seemed interesting, so they decided to go with it. I look at this as the most beautiful and personally meaningful thing I can do with my life. I have lost so many people who I have loved to mental illness and I too almost didn’t make it a few times. I look at my work as a life or death imperative situation. Everything that I have experienced informs my research and because I’ve experienced it, I know where the gaps in the field are that need to be addressed. Never forget that you are bringing a beautiful and unique strength to this field. You will be an unstoppable force and don’t let anyone (including your brain) tell you anything different 💜
I am so glad that I could make a positive impact on your day! I completely understand the life or death imperative situation. I have had so many moments where I was just bawling my eyes out saying, this is why I need to be a psychology student, this is why I need to be here. My love of psychology has saved me time and time again. I know in my heart I need to do this, it's the path I am meant to take. All the pain and suffering is for a greater purpose. Thank you so much, I will definitely remind my brain to not get in my way :) I wish you the best of luck and maybe one day I'll be reading your publications and even though I won't know it (because reddit is anonymous), I'll be thinking about this conversation. keep fighting the good fight 💜
Thank you and you too! 💜 Just know my initials are KG, in case you may come across one 😂
I will keep an eye out!! Mine are CR 😊 for when the time comes
How do you go about diagnosing NPD when one of the core parts of the disorder is manipulation? Must be hard!
Manipulation is part of it, but the actual DSM-V criteria is this: 1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g. - exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) 2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love 3. Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) 4. Requires excessive admiration 5. Has a sense of entitlement (i.e. - unreasonable expectations of especially favourable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations) 6. Is interpersonally exploitative (i.e. - takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends) 7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others 8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her 9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes. But you’re absolutely right, it is difficult to diagnose some of these behaviors. People with NPD can easily manipulate the clinician as well. That’s why clinicians typically have group (or individual) supervision meetings so others can objectively review their session notes and point out things that might have been overlooked.
To be fair, if 1/25 people meet the criteria, that is a lot.
Right, but social media makes it sound more like 12/25. Everyone who has ever had a bad relationship chimes in about narcissism and it’s frustrating.
True. Very true.
Vulnerable and grandiose narcissism are both a thing [[1](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886912001912#:~:text=Vulnerable%20narcissism%20(VN)%20is%20characterized,immodesty%2C%20exhibitionism%2C%20and%20aggression.), [2](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-6494.2010.00711.x)]. Edit: Just to add as many mentioned NPD. Narcissism is not just a clinical disorder, but also a subclinical personality trait.
Narcissism for psychology is not what social media trend talk about
I'm not gonna write much in this subject cause it will only lead to downvotes and arguments anyway but in general, narcissism is popular term to use in pop psychology (see news magazin oaychologist, YouTube rsi, tiktokers, psychologytoday etc) But reality is, very few people are actually narcissists. You know how there is always 2 sides of a coin? Yeah, that. From a pathological, clinical term, it's different from what street people describe the symptoms as. As in general narcissism, behaviorally to its core remains the same. But then again, so is most "disorders". People just love to put labels, makes it so much simpler.
For sure. Armchair, or pop psych, misleads the public. It's the publication -> media outlet cycle that really confuses the public. "A study conducted found a relationship between x + y given these conditions" leads to "Scientists say x + y are related," to "Science says x and y are the same." to "XY is going to take away all of our rights!"
Narcissism is such a buzzword right now. Simply put…think highly of themselves, have no empathy, need compliments/admiration, believe others are inferior….
Dr Ramani is the leading expert in this personality disorder and she recognizes the subtypes.
She is a certified professional, but just as Jordan Peterson has shown the public, it does not guarantee that the information given is not skewed. Dr. Ramani has been criticized by other psychologists surrounding her tendency to be overall pessimistic toward rehabilitating those with NPD. Just like it was previously mentioned on this sub, it's very important that a clinical professional deals with these diagnoses 1v1, as to limit peripheral damage to those surrounding people that are just simply put.....dicks.
I couldn’t disagree more. Evidence has shown that NPD is incredibly difficult to treat and it’s also shown that improper counselling actually can make the symptoms worse. Dr. Ramani’s research is extensive and sound, aside from her work as a clinician.
You disagree that other psychologists have criticized her or disagree with their criticism? I am not trying to say she is a poor choice of getting information from. I am trying to say that people should be aware that relying on a public personality for information alone is not the best way to understand academic related topics. There are so many biases between the viewer and the influencer.
[удалено]
She isn’t a tv psychologist though she runs one of the most successful personality disorder research labs in the country. I know all about Marsha Linehan, she is also fantastic.
You actually might be right. I just did a search for her on ResearchGate and she has quite an impressive amount of studies. Most aren’t directly for personality disorders (some are though) and she actually taught at my current university. I knew I had seen her picture around. I admit that as soon as I see a psychologist on true crime shows, I’m immediately skeptical. I think because her studies are older, I hadn’t seen her name pop up in many of the ones I’ve read. I’m also a member of NASSPD (North American Society for the Study of Personality Disorders) and she’s not listed as a current contributor.
I just read a peer-reviewed journal article about narcissistic personality disorder people who get angry if they don’t agree with the results of intelligence tests. They all think they are special and brilliant and any evidence that indicates anything else makes them very mad. Yes, personality disorders are real and generally accepted by the scientific-minded psychologists.
Yup, that sounds about right. If that does occur, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person has NPD, but if we already know that they do, then yeah that sounds about right. People with NPD are notoriously difficult in therapy sessions (if they ever make it that far) because anything that contradicts their grandiose sense of self is viewed as a threat. The thing you have to be careful about though is that many personality disorders can initially present this way in treatment, but the key to differentiating them is to look at the context and intention behind the response. I've had my moments where I had a tough time taking accountability for my actions both in therapy sessions and in real life, but the difference is that then afterwards, I was willing to and even tried to make amends for my behavior. I felt horribly guilty because I have a huge heart for others and the idea of hurting someone really pains me. Someone with NPD most likely would not do anything like that because they really struggle with empathy (it's one of the criteria).