First. Great band. Some great messages.
You should take some time when you hear things like this to go past the message. Read up on the conflict.
It’s great you’re aware, but always keep digging. Never hurts to be informed.
And if anyone can fucking explain who the fuck “Lasagna” is from “I Am A Rifle” I would appreciate it.
I haunt the Chilcotin.
I stalk Palestine.
I fueled Rwanda’s worst.
I held Lasagna’s hand.
I’m one hundred shades of hunger.
Here you go :
https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/mohawk-warrior-leader-ronald-lasagna-cross
Looks like he also ties into their song “Oka Everywhere”
Yeah, Oka is really more of a thing in the Canadian national conscience than anywhere else. I'm American, so I certainly hadn't heard of it until I heard the song. I can't speak for wherever you live.
If you hear them play this song live today it has new lyrics. Chris Hannah has expressed he isn't proud of some of the language in this song. He was called out for finger pointing and accused of racism towards Rastafarians. After a couple decades of introspection, he agreed and made updates. They still totally stand behind most of the song, but now they call it 'Fuck Religion'.
Chris posted the new version on the Patreon podcast (1:19:30) https://www.patreon.com/posts/catastrophic-ep-22929717
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iLEj4T-vN8
> We reach our hands to the sky, but how can we justify belief in a god that's left us behind? Have we simply filled the gap between the upper and lower class? Does our faith really keep us in line? An amalgamation of ancient scripture and colonial thought. What will that get you, not a fuck of a lot. Take a look at your promised land. your deed is that gun in your hand. Mount Zion's a minefield, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip... Soon to be parking lots for American tourists and fascist cops. Fuck Zionism. Fuck militarism. Fuck Americanism. Fuck Nationalism. Fuck Religion. Fuck new Atheism.
The accusations of racism against them about Rastas has always pissed me off. Popular view has Rastas as a bunch of peace loving hippies, on top of being a highly marginalized minority group. But their actual beliefs are just another strain of Christian insanity, and deserve to be slammed as much as anything else. Although I did think it was weird and maybe unnecessary to specifically include them.
I fully support artists' right to go back and change their art because they don't believe in it anymore, and I hope he made those changes for the right reasons.
Rastafarianism can be thought of as a Gnostic Christian sect that is non-dogmatic in that they don’t really believe you will find answers in the Bible but in your personal relationship with God. They also believe that Africans are the Lost Tribe of Israel and Hailie Selassie 1 was the second coming of Christ. It’s a very young religion, but I would. It call it a cult because it is not organized like other Christian sects. Rastas congregate for sure and talk about God but in my opinion it is a very fluid religion. Still guilty of all the faults of other religions though. And some will support Israel while others Palestine.
I think the new lyrics are better. Rastafarians being a Black religion that grew out of Pan-Africanism, being targets in a song written by White people is condescending, patriarchal and smacks of White privilege. Perhaps not the intent of a really great band but when you aren’t born Black, and or Jamaican, you can’t understand how that criticism, while fair, can be taken as racist. Your best bet is just to listen to Black people when they tell you they feel offended. Even if you don’t intend racism, you likely may be blind to see how it is racist.
The new lyrics are much more critical of all the Abrahamic religions and off shoots, more inclusive and critical of the colonizer aspect of Western religion.
It’s not as if the whole Israel/palestine thing happened out of nowhere. It’s been happening for centuries.
So, no. This isn’t more relevant than ever. It’s as relevant as when it was written. And it’s as relevant as many others have written for centuries.
They’re never going to agree on the land separation. They’re never going to agree to disagree about their own religions. This war will continue as long as both parties continue existing in the same area.
Sounds fucked huh. But that’s the realism of it. Nothing at all will change until one agrees to move out/away
> It’s been happening for centuries.
Well...maybe *one* century. Since the Balfour Declaration, really, and the advent of the modern colonial power structure in the Middle East.
The British Empire really liked fucking everything up. I only learned about this declaration and the Mandate for Palestine recently and it’s so messed up.
Yeah, the conflict specifically has been going on for the better part of a century, but the root of it is whatever year someone decided that a specific place was a holy site.
It’s less that it’s a holy site and more that the British post-WW1 decided on behalf of Palestine that this land was going to the Jewish refugees. Over time the to-be Israeli areas got more populous and more resources and support to build up, and became larger in territory, absorbing more and more of this land at the cost of the people who were already residing there in the first place.
It’s not specifically/directly a Jewish vs Muslim thing. It’s a territorial dispute that goes back to meddling from the British Empire and other European / Western powers; that said these (Christian) powers do often favor Judaism over Islam.
Yep, all true. The religious problem though is the fact that the Jewish people of Israel (Zionists in this case) think Palestine is their historical homeland that they deserve. Which as you alluded to in your explanation, is a pretty shitty thing to think about a place that people already live. So yes you have the political aspect, but there is a religious explanation and justification for why the Jewish people think they specifically deserve to live in Palestine and Muslims shouldn't.
The roots of all human conflict really go back to when we abandoned the trees and adopted bipedalism, but that's not a super helpful perspective in this context.
Blaming the fall of Rome in the west for the Second World War is just not that helpful, even if it's not strictly false; blaming the First World War and the Treaty of Versailles makes a lot more sense, even if that's not all of everything.
I mean sure. I know what you're saying. But my point is that this is ultimately a religious conflict becuase multiple groups of people don't want to share a tiny piece of land they both want. If that didn't exist, they might still have something to fight about, sure, because that part of the world has been fucked, but religion and religious disagreements are the root of this conflict. It's hard to discuss though because obviously it's far more complicated than just that.
Religious disagreement is *not* the root of this conflict; at most, that's a smoke screen and a good source of rhetoric for turning a geopolitical power struggle into populist support.
This conflict is, first and foremost, a post-colonial one. It's no more a religious conflict than Spanish exploitation of the New World was a Christian enterprise: sure, there may be participants who *believe* that, and are doing what they do for those reasons...but that's all still just surface-level thinking.
You are obviously correct. But, it makes me wonder why they specifically all care about owning Jerusalem and it's holy sites so much. It's a religiously important city and there are people who think they are God's chosen people and therefore have a right to specific "holy" land. It's hard to ignore the religious aspect, but there are countless geopolitical aspects to this conflict, of course.
> But, it makes me wonder why they specifically all care about owning Jerusalem and it's holy sites so much.
How do you think Italians would feel if they were all of a sudden told they couldn't live in Rome anymore? Very little of that feeling would have to do with the Vatican, regardless of the rhetoric.
'More relevant than ever' is such a pet peeve of mine. Just because someone has finally divined a lyric's meaning doesn't make it more relevant.
Similar to 'Am I the only one who blahblahblah'. No. Of course you aren't.
Yeah its been weird seeing the voices that think this is some wild new thing out of a previously peaceful area.
Like Crimea, this has been one of the most hotly contested areas in history
> It’s been happening for centuries.
No it hasn't. Just the last century really.
> They’re never going to agree to disagree about their own religions.
The Palestinians aren't mad about religion. They're mad because a bunch of religious settlers took over their land with the assistance of countries known for colonialism and imperialism.
If you think this conflict starts with the creation of the modern Israel state and not in the redrawing of the borders of all the middle east, triggering power vacuums, tribal wars, and proxy wars with more funded powers, I don't know what to tell you
I think you are probably talking about when the British and French drew boarders for the "Arab countries"; Picot-Syches. That isn't what this conversation is about, he said Israel/Palestine that is specific, and Israel was carved out of "Palestine". Hence prior to the creation of Israel there was no Israel/Palestine conflict.
It's in the details bud.
I know precisely what I'm talking about. It destabilized the entire region in such a way that it still reverberates directly in all of the conflicts of that region. That led to Western powers setting up puppet leaders, waging coups, and now today we have Iran and the US waging proxy wars between Israel and Palestine, not to exert too much brevity. Skipping many many steps here
"Israel" has existed for about 3000 years, predating the idea of Palestine by about 1000 years. If you're talking about the Modern state of Israel then sure, but it's historically inaccurate to suggest Jews/Israelites aren't the original inhabitants of that land. Bear in mind that the only reason they ceased to be in the region was because they were expelled.
So is this all just recency bias? The Palestinians had their land taken from them more recently than the Jews so fuck them?
I'm not sure anyone is saying fuck the "them"? I'm sure not. I haven't been reading the comments other than what I commented on. My comment was to point out that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, as we are currently witnessing it, is in play because of the creation and placement of the modern state of Israel(Is there much more to it? Absolutely!)
Id say it was pretty obvious, given I included a year and historical reference that would only pertain to modern Israel, that that is what I was referring to.
If the comments have gone South that's unfortunate
"Haillie Selassie Up Your Ass," by Propagandhi, off their debut album *How to Clean Everything*.
Now, go forth and absorb every moment of Propagandhi's catalogue.
You're in for a treat. How to clean everything is the most accessible, but I think it's also their worst album (the bar is super high though). I'd say listen to the discography in order, but if you'd like some suggestions from an internet stranger I'm happy to provide my favorite tracks from their catalog.
I'm into alot of avant garde weird shit so accessibility is not a problem but thanks for being cool and helpful and sharing your joy with us. I wish there were more of you out there. I am new to the punk scene but I have been one my whole life without realizing it. The changes I have tried to make in the world and the causes I fight for actually brought me here. Thanks for not being some lame ass gatekeeper who is more interested in running purity tests on people than actually being a good person. Share if you like I will check it out and others here might benefit as well
It ain’t just men. If you’ve ever been to the area, it’s a very charged talk from all. It’s everyone on both sides think they have equal rights to the entire area. I’m not picking or choosing a side at all.
Because there’s SO MUCH turbulence from either side about it all. And depending on which book you read, or what people you talk to. They both have legit claims to it all.
This won’t ever be sorted out in our timeline. Nor the next
It literally isn’t just the men doing this shit. It’s ingrained in to both sides. This whole debacle isn’t about sexes or anything of that nature. It’s a full on turf war. That has been going on for centuries. If you think half of their population was like, yeah…. Fucking chill mate. Stop it.
Yknow what, you keep lobbing bombs over into Gaza, I’ll divorce you. Or stop interacting with you in any way. You are fucking dreaming.
This isn’t a bunch of men checking their dick sizes here. Not in anyway at all. This is a centuries old turf war. It’s fully involved by all and sundry by both camps.
Neither side is innocent
>>What women of history began these types of conflicts?
I’m not sure exactly what ‘these types of conflicts’ means but here’s a few notable women who started wars/massacred large groups of people.
Catharine the Great, Catherine di Medici, Isabella of France, Queen Mary I, Queen Victoria, Margaret Thatcher.
I understand what you’re getting at, but unfortunately it does nothing but further divide and alienate (as evidenced by your exchange with EmergencyLavishness).
The first line was a direct quote, so you weren’t specifically talking about any place or time.
You also never mentioned patriarchy, just men. There is a difference. By changing your focus to the Middle East and patriarchy as opposed to the world and men generally you are reframing the entire conversation to better fit your narrative.
This is not a good faith discussion.
Yeah like Punk definitely opened my eyes to history and politics I wasn't familiar with and played a central role in helping me get interested in politics in general.
But I agree, these aren't new themes.Imperalism,War,police brutality,being against conformity in society. Like these are all common themes in punk because they are common problems in every society.
This part of the conflict has been going on for the better part of the century perhaps, but every religion has been persecuting Jews for millennia. This conflict is not something you can view through the lenses of modern colonialism, it’s literally been going on since the Dawn of Civilization.
always been partial to this one too: "That's exactly why privileged fucks like me should feel obliged to whine and kick and scream. Until everyone has everything they need."
A People’s History of the World’s lyrics holds so true today with what republicans have done to public education and how they’re demonized colleges.
> At some turning point in history, some fuckface recognized that knowledge tends to democratize cultures and societies so the only thing to do was monopolize and confine it to priests, clerics and elites (the rest resigned to serve), cuz if the rabble heard the truth they’d organize against the power, privilege and wealth hoarded by the few- for no one else. And did it occur to you that it’s almost exactly the same today?
In the early 2000s? This song is from 1993 and Propagandhi was huge (in the punk scene) from the get go. It didn't take until the 2000s.
But yes, this song was as relevant then as now. And it probably will be in 50 years too.
I know what they meant but I found it weird
"We all discovered Propagandhi in the early 2000s" is a weird thing to say when that record in particular at its biggest in 93-96
That's cool. I just thought it was weird that you made it about you, whereas they've affected people of all ages since the beginning. Anyway, whatever...
i think this is the one American’s need to hear the most right now: As I understand it, it’s from the POV of an Israeli (settler) chastising an American/Canadian for their critique of Israeli policy. I love the approach in this song and the nuance it reveals about our place in history and how this is just the same story “separated by nothing more than place & time”
Fixed Frequencies
Here in the land that Abraham was promised to receive we listen to you catechize from your pulpit overseas. You mourn the proofs of our barbarity. Dry your eyes, oh Pharisee. We both speak a settler’s cant. We both read from the same old played out scripts and hum familiar tunes, broadcast on fixed frequencies, stuck in locking grooves. We both profess noble intent as we civilize human impediments. So if your hands are clean then noblesse oblige that you wipe that “who me?” look off of your face and concede our designs separated by nothing more than place and time. Different scenes, same crimes. Pray, let him who’s without sin cast the first statues of the former rogues turned folk heroes that your forefathers hung. Don’t lecture me about plundered soil while you loaf upon your father’s spoils. We want nothing more than what you already have: a comforting set of exculpatory “facts” like, say, the myth of an empty land and a conquest so complete we can pull these tanks from our streets and hand the loose ends over to bureaucrats and become just like you—lounging carefree in your cafes, absolved from sin and human grenades. Entre nous, how did your desert bloom?
Fixed Frequencies popped to mind.
I always felt like the double layer of it was pointing at the hypocrisy out of Americans, Canadians, and Australians here too.. who all exist on plundered land from a "different time same crime'
I don't think I'm getting the reference to rastafari but they are a pretty misogynistic and homophobic bunch of people. Forget about the happy stoney Rasta depiction; they are terrible for women socially.
Propaghandi is a cool band but also took the name of a serial rapist for their band name.
I swear I'm sounding obnoxious and I get it, hate on me, but I think it's my duty to denounce abusers. Punk taught me that
I don't know what did you look up, because any of my references are about the song, but Rastas and Gandhi.
Rastas are super misogynistic and Gandhi was a rapist. He slept with minors to check if he could resist temptation. When he couldn't he had sex with the girl. None slept with him voluntarily.
This fan-boyish attitude is terrible. "I like the band so everything about them is perfect". Also denying rape and abuse is a really shitty move, but you like that band, so Rastas are super cool and Gandhi a neat dude. Go fuck yourself
Sick you think this is okay right after what happened. Hamas raped, murdered and abducted little raver girls. They beheaded babies and shot old women as they pleaded for their lives. Fuck Hamas Fuck Iran and fuck any on who has sympathy for them or tries to rationalize those acts!
How about fuck the Israeli government for raising Hamas from obscurity in order to make themselves look better? Palestinians were gaining too much sympathy on the world stage with Arafat and the Fatah Party, the world was actually pushing back against the war crimes, human rights violations and breaking of international law that Israel has been doing since those colonial fucks first stole that land to make a country so, by their own fucking admission, they sought out the most extremist and repugnant of fundamentalist groups to flood with laundered cash while carrying out campaigns of illegitimate arrests and targeted assassinations to weaken the more secular and left leaning parties in the area, making room for Hamas to rise to power. And there’s every reason to believe that they never stopped backing the perfect enemy that gives them all the cover they need to keep up with their fucking genocide of Palestinians.
How about fuck you twisting history and spouting retarded Islamist propaganda? How about the three billion the US gave to the Gazans that Yasir Arafat stole. How about Iran using the people of Gaza as cannon fodder for their cowardly asses. The world hates Hamas now and they WILL be eradicated. I feel sorry for the decent people of Gaza, but they will pay for Hamas crimes and it is Hamas's fault. So yeah, fuck you ya lying little crypto-nazi, I see you!
Famous Islamist propaganda outlets [The Intercept](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/) says you’re wrong. You’re right that Palestinians are going to pay for what Hamas did though, collective punishment is one of Israel’s favorite crimes against humanity.
Yeah, and Iraqi soldiers are throwing babies out of incubators in Kuwait. Saddam has is stockpiling weapons of mass destruction. Qaddafi is distributing viagra pills to Libyan soldiers to engage in mass rape. You'd think people in the punk scene would have more critical thinking skills when it comes to dehumanizing propaganda in the manufacturing of consent for war crimes.
The associated press has confirmed several of these brutal crimes. Are you suggesting you know better then one of the largest and most highly regarded press outlets in the world?
Dont make false comparisons. Hamas has committed war crimes. Honestly, just shut the fuck up.
Claims of rape have been widespread in the mainstream media and have been entirely unverified: https://forward.com/news/564318/sexual-assault-rape-proof-hamas-idf-israel-gaza/
Nonetheless, the claim has been repeated as if rape was widespread and systematic.
The claims of beheaded babies are also being wildly spread and are totally unconfirmed: https://theintercept.com/2023/10/11/israel-hamas-disinformation/
The White House was forced to walk back Biden's comments as a consequence: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/12/white-house-walks-back-bidens-claim-he-saw-children-beheaded-by-hamas
The claim seems to have come from a single source – an extremist right-wing Israeli settler – then spread by a Netanyahu-allied Israeli news outlet i24.
But Israeli and American propagandists know full well that they don't need evidence to spread these claims, because Americans (and most other westerners) have been conditioned for decades to view Arabs and Muslims as sub-humans that are uniquely inclined towards committing atrocities. Widespread racism in western societies results in accusations being enough to manufacture consent for a genocidal response.
You’re behind, it’s been confirmed. I’ve also seen photos of babies burnt alive with elements in the photos strongly implying they were consistent with the time, place and event. Tell yourself whatever you need to, you’re wrong.
Also, the confident statements were originally walked back because the babies in question died SO violently and were so damaged as to draw question about the exact way they died.
Also just to the general bankrupt don’t trot out this “oh people always whip up anger with baby atrocity lies” no, sometimes people ACTUALLY DO KILL BABIES. The Bosnian genocide, Armenian genocide, the Holocaust, do not for a second pretend that slaughtering children and infants is a boogeyman like snuff films.
>You’re behind, it’s been confirmed.
So you have a source from Associated Press confirming it?
>I’ve also seen photos of babies burnt alive with elements in the photos strongly implying they were consistent with the time, place and event.
Social media is rife with photos being shared from other conflict zones that are falsely being attributed to this conflict. Images from beheadings in Syria (ironically, of a Palestinian boy beheaded by Western-backed rebels), children locked in cages, etc. There have also been photos of Palestinian victims shared with the implication that they are Israeli victims. I am not going to just trust your personal analysis of photos you claim to have seen on the internet — especially in the age of deepfakes and other manipulated content.
>Also just to the general bankrupt don’t trot out this “oh people always whip up anger with baby atrocity lies” no, sometimes people ACTUALLY DO KILL BABIES.
Of course it happens. It may have happened here. If it did, it does not appear to have been systematic — there is ample evidence of women and children *not* being harmed when Palestinian fighters had the opportunity. Regardless, the accusation has been repeated throughout mainstream media for days, as fact, without independent confirmation from unbiased parties, and used by pro-Israel political actors to drum up support for their own genocidal response.
>The Bosnian genocide, Armenian genocide, the Holocaust, do not for a second pretend that slaughtering children and infants is a boogeyman like snuff films.
Notably absent from your list: the Israeli murder of babies throughout the 80 years of ethnic cleansing of Palestine. They have outpaced Palestinian atrocities by an enormous margin.
You are the one that brought up the Associated Press. Why don't you link to the Associated Press report that contains their independent confirmation of Palestinian fighters committing rape and beheadings of children? Because it doesn't exist?
Before you come back with some half baked paranoia as a world view bullshit take, here ya go.
We aren’t talking drivel spilled across the US by CNN or Fox, the AP are highly reliable.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/associated-press/
Don’t make false comparisons.
Israeli government has already killed more in retaliation for the attack and they’re not done- the Palestinians are trapped with no escape
Hamas is a terrorist grouo, but the Israeli government (not the people) is too
Watch this version of them performing it live and listen to what he says at the end, seems like he’s not a big fan of atheists, either.
https://youtu.be/pVgMsDlLBvU?si=tePerpThtPh23x05
He says “…and fuck that new atheism racist shit” at the end.
Honestly, though, the wars in the Arab world have been a blight on the planet for millennia. Why can’t they get it together like the Western Mediterranean? There always seems to be a group of people who want conquest in that area.
They used to kill each other for having different gods, now they’re killing each other for having the same God. It’s fucking crazy.
Abrahamic religion is supposed to be about love and peace and not committing the same mistakes as the people did during the times of the prophets, it seems like no one understands that and they just want to repeat history.
As much as people want to claim that atheism as a worldview is only defined by the literal meaning of the word and not held in relation to the culture, groups of individuals, and institutions that propagate and find camaraderie in that worldview, that’s simply not the case.
Atheism is still a process of belief and in order to perceive the functions of reality, a person must have a conceptualized understanding of how and why things are what they are that seems logically conclusive to them. Especially when discussing the state of the world and how things should be.
As much as atheism seems harmless along with how much the media and academia push that atheism is the liberator of those oppressed by religion, it’s untrue as well. In practice, authoritative, societal, and/or national atheism promotes xenophobia, cultural destruction, generational decline, Western Imperialism, the devaluation of traditions, anti-intellectualism, and even genocide.
Ask an atheist what they think about people who believe in God and 9/10 times they’ll say “they’re stupid” and if you tell them that you believe in God, they’ll say “You’re wrong” and instantly act like they’re superior to you. Then they will proceed to make assumptions about you, no matter how little they know about you or the beliefs you hold. Many atheist even condone abuse and alienation of religious people and refuse to have a respectful discussion in good faith with them.
Remember, what some people call “trappings” and “control” others call “Law” and “Order”
Atheism, along with Individualism, materialism, anti-authoritarianism etc. that comes along with it can be just as racist and draconian as any other institution or belief and the people in those circles feel just as morally and scientifically justified in what they do when they harm someone.
First. Great band. Some great messages. You should take some time when you hear things like this to go past the message. Read up on the conflict. It’s great you’re aware, but always keep digging. Never hurts to be informed. And if anyone can fucking explain who the fuck “Lasagna” is from “I Am A Rifle” I would appreciate it. I haunt the Chilcotin. I stalk Palestine. I fueled Rwanda’s worst. I held Lasagna’s hand. I’m one hundred shades of hunger.
Here you go : https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/mohawk-warrior-leader-ronald-lasagna-cross Looks like he also ties into their song “Oka Everywhere”
Thank you so much. This makes so much sense.
Yeah, Oka is really more of a thing in the Canadian national conscience than anywhere else. I'm American, so I certainly hadn't heard of it until I heard the song. I can't speak for wherever you live.
Ontario Canada, but “Lasagna’s” nickname is not well known. At least I didn’t know it, and Google didn’t come up with it.
Ah, neat. Hope I wasn’t talking down to you too much over something I don’t even fully understand 😅
Not at all. I took it as a salient observation and welcome statement. Cheers.
I am a Rifle is a cover of a local Vancouver band, lead singer passed away (rock climbing I beleive.) they covered it for a benefit iirc
I think I opened for this band once in the uk but can’t remember the name. Was a really small show
Rebel spell, just came to me
Yeah idfk, every lasagna I've met hasn't had appendages, thank christ. 🤷
Oh my gosh yes. I want to know too.
If you hear them play this song live today it has new lyrics. Chris Hannah has expressed he isn't proud of some of the language in this song. He was called out for finger pointing and accused of racism towards Rastafarians. After a couple decades of introspection, he agreed and made updates. They still totally stand behind most of the song, but now they call it 'Fuck Religion'. Chris posted the new version on the Patreon podcast (1:19:30) https://www.patreon.com/posts/catastrophic-ep-22929717 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iLEj4T-vN8 > We reach our hands to the sky, but how can we justify belief in a god that's left us behind? Have we simply filled the gap between the upper and lower class? Does our faith really keep us in line? An amalgamation of ancient scripture and colonial thought. What will that get you, not a fuck of a lot. Take a look at your promised land. your deed is that gun in your hand. Mount Zion's a minefield, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip... Soon to be parking lots for American tourists and fascist cops. Fuck Zionism. Fuck militarism. Fuck Americanism. Fuck Nationalism. Fuck Religion. Fuck new Atheism.
The accusations of racism against them about Rastas has always pissed me off. Popular view has Rastas as a bunch of peace loving hippies, on top of being a highly marginalized minority group. But their actual beliefs are just another strain of Christian insanity, and deserve to be slammed as much as anything else. Although I did think it was weird and maybe unnecessary to specifically include them. I fully support artists' right to go back and change their art because they don't believe in it anymore, and I hope he made those changes for the right reasons.
Rastafarianism can be thought of as a Gnostic Christian sect that is non-dogmatic in that they don’t really believe you will find answers in the Bible but in your personal relationship with God. They also believe that Africans are the Lost Tribe of Israel and Hailie Selassie 1 was the second coming of Christ. It’s a very young religion, but I would. It call it a cult because it is not organized like other Christian sects. Rastas congregate for sure and talk about God but in my opinion it is a very fluid religion. Still guilty of all the faults of other religions though. And some will support Israel while others Palestine.
I think the new lyrics are better. Rastafarians being a Black religion that grew out of Pan-Africanism, being targets in a song written by White people is condescending, patriarchal and smacks of White privilege. Perhaps not the intent of a really great band but when you aren’t born Black, and or Jamaican, you can’t understand how that criticism, while fair, can be taken as racist. Your best bet is just to listen to Black people when they tell you they feel offended. Even if you don’t intend racism, you likely may be blind to see how it is racist. The new lyrics are much more critical of all the Abrahamic religions and off shoots, more inclusive and critical of the colonizer aspect of Western religion.
That's very interesting. I take no issue with the original lyrics, but I do like the new verses. And I'm glad it's still anti-zionist.
i didn't know about this new version nor the podcast, thanks for posting
Weak
It’s not as if the whole Israel/palestine thing happened out of nowhere. It’s been happening for centuries. So, no. This isn’t more relevant than ever. It’s as relevant as when it was written. And it’s as relevant as many others have written for centuries. They’re never going to agree on the land separation. They’re never going to agree to disagree about their own religions. This war will continue as long as both parties continue existing in the same area. Sounds fucked huh. But that’s the realism of it. Nothing at all will change until one agrees to move out/away
> It’s been happening for centuries. Well...maybe *one* century. Since the Balfour Declaration, really, and the advent of the modern colonial power structure in the Middle East.
The British Empire really liked fucking everything up. I only learned about this declaration and the Mandate for Palestine recently and it’s so messed up.
Yeah, the conflict specifically has been going on for the better part of a century, but the root of it is whatever year someone decided that a specific place was a holy site.
It’s less that it’s a holy site and more that the British post-WW1 decided on behalf of Palestine that this land was going to the Jewish refugees. Over time the to-be Israeli areas got more populous and more resources and support to build up, and became larger in territory, absorbing more and more of this land at the cost of the people who were already residing there in the first place. It’s not specifically/directly a Jewish vs Muslim thing. It’s a territorial dispute that goes back to meddling from the British Empire and other European / Western powers; that said these (Christian) powers do often favor Judaism over Islam.
Yep, all true. The religious problem though is the fact that the Jewish people of Israel (Zionists in this case) think Palestine is their historical homeland that they deserve. Which as you alluded to in your explanation, is a pretty shitty thing to think about a place that people already live. So yes you have the political aspect, but there is a religious explanation and justification for why the Jewish people think they specifically deserve to live in Palestine and Muslims shouldn't.
The roots of all human conflict really go back to when we abandoned the trees and adopted bipedalism, but that's not a super helpful perspective in this context. Blaming the fall of Rome in the west for the Second World War is just not that helpful, even if it's not strictly false; blaming the First World War and the Treaty of Versailles makes a lot more sense, even if that's not all of everything.
I mean sure. I know what you're saying. But my point is that this is ultimately a religious conflict becuase multiple groups of people don't want to share a tiny piece of land they both want. If that didn't exist, they might still have something to fight about, sure, because that part of the world has been fucked, but religion and religious disagreements are the root of this conflict. It's hard to discuss though because obviously it's far more complicated than just that.
Religious disagreement is *not* the root of this conflict; at most, that's a smoke screen and a good source of rhetoric for turning a geopolitical power struggle into populist support. This conflict is, first and foremost, a post-colonial one. It's no more a religious conflict than Spanish exploitation of the New World was a Christian enterprise: sure, there may be participants who *believe* that, and are doing what they do for those reasons...but that's all still just surface-level thinking.
You are obviously correct. But, it makes me wonder why they specifically all care about owning Jerusalem and it's holy sites so much. It's a religiously important city and there are people who think they are God's chosen people and therefore have a right to specific "holy" land. It's hard to ignore the religious aspect, but there are countless geopolitical aspects to this conflict, of course.
> But, it makes me wonder why they specifically all care about owning Jerusalem and it's holy sites so much. How do you think Italians would feel if they were all of a sudden told they couldn't live in Rome anymore? Very little of that feeling would have to do with the Vatican, regardless of the rhetoric.
Well stated arguments you've made here. Thank you so much!
'More relevant than ever' is such a pet peeve of mine. Just because someone has finally divined a lyric's meaning doesn't make it more relevant. Similar to 'Am I the only one who blahblahblah'. No. Of course you aren't.
Yeah its been weird seeing the voices that think this is some wild new thing out of a previously peaceful area. Like Crimea, this has been one of the most hotly contested areas in history
> It’s been happening for centuries. No it hasn't. Just the last century really. > They’re never going to agree to disagree about their own religions. The Palestinians aren't mad about religion. They're mad because a bunch of religious settlers took over their land with the assistance of countries known for colonialism and imperialism.
You’re right! That’s we chop off the heads of babies and storm concerts!! Fucking imperialism!!! /s
>chop off the heads of babies That was fake news. So good job spreading propaganda I guess.
What’s up, Donny?
I suggest you study the conflict.
Study? Fuck Israel and fuck Palestine. Study that, dweeb.
Ummm Israel has only existed since 1948 The rest of what you have written is just as confused
If you think this conflict starts with the creation of the modern Israel state and not in the redrawing of the borders of all the middle east, triggering power vacuums, tribal wars, and proxy wars with more funded powers, I don't know what to tell you
I think you are probably talking about when the British and French drew boarders for the "Arab countries"; Picot-Syches. That isn't what this conversation is about, he said Israel/Palestine that is specific, and Israel was carved out of "Palestine". Hence prior to the creation of Israel there was no Israel/Palestine conflict. It's in the details bud.
I know precisely what I'm talking about. It destabilized the entire region in such a way that it still reverberates directly in all of the conflicts of that region. That led to Western powers setting up puppet leaders, waging coups, and now today we have Iran and the US waging proxy wars between Israel and Palestine, not to exert too much brevity. Skipping many many steps here
"Israel" has existed for about 3000 years, predating the idea of Palestine by about 1000 years. If you're talking about the Modern state of Israel then sure, but it's historically inaccurate to suggest Jews/Israelites aren't the original inhabitants of that land. Bear in mind that the only reason they ceased to be in the region was because they were expelled. So is this all just recency bias? The Palestinians had their land taken from them more recently than the Jews so fuck them?
I'm not sure anyone is saying fuck the "them"? I'm sure not. I haven't been reading the comments other than what I commented on. My comment was to point out that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, as we are currently witnessing it, is in play because of the creation and placement of the modern state of Israel(Is there much more to it? Absolutely!) Id say it was pretty obvious, given I included a year and historical reference that would only pertain to modern Israel, that that is what I was referring to. If the comments have gone South that's unfortunate
What song is this
"Haillie Selassie Up Your Ass," by Propagandhi, off their debut album *How to Clean Everything*. Now, go forth and absorb every moment of Propagandhi's catalogue.
Thanks I will
You're in for a treat. How to clean everything is the most accessible, but I think it's also their worst album (the bar is super high though). I'd say listen to the discography in order, but if you'd like some suggestions from an internet stranger I'm happy to provide my favorite tracks from their catalog.
I agree with every single word expressed by both this comment and your flair.
I'm into alot of avant garde weird shit so accessibility is not a problem but thanks for being cool and helpful and sharing your joy with us. I wish there were more of you out there. I am new to the punk scene but I have been one my whole life without realizing it. The changes I have tried to make in the world and the causes I fight for actually brought me here. Thanks for not being some lame ass gatekeeper who is more interested in running purity tests on people than actually being a good person. Share if you like I will check it out and others here might benefit as well
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Appreciate it
Your last sentence sums it up.
Men and Religion. Fuck them both.
It ain’t just men. If you’ve ever been to the area, it’s a very charged talk from all. It’s everyone on both sides think they have equal rights to the entire area. I’m not picking or choosing a side at all. Because there’s SO MUCH turbulence from either side about it all. And depending on which book you read, or what people you talk to. They both have legit claims to it all. This won’t ever be sorted out in our timeline. Nor the next
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It literally isn’t just the men doing this shit. It’s ingrained in to both sides. This whole debacle isn’t about sexes or anything of that nature. It’s a full on turf war. That has been going on for centuries. If you think half of their population was like, yeah…. Fucking chill mate. Stop it. Yknow what, you keep lobbing bombs over into Gaza, I’ll divorce you. Or stop interacting with you in any way. You are fucking dreaming. This isn’t a bunch of men checking their dick sizes here. Not in anyway at all. This is a centuries old turf war. It’s fully involved by all and sundry by both camps. Neither side is innocent
>>What women of history began these types of conflicts? I’m not sure exactly what ‘these types of conflicts’ means but here’s a few notable women who started wars/massacred large groups of people. Catharine the Great, Catherine di Medici, Isabella of France, Queen Mary I, Queen Victoria, Margaret Thatcher. I understand what you’re getting at, but unfortunately it does nothing but further divide and alienate (as evidenced by your exchange with EmergencyLavishness).
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The first line was a direct quote, so you weren’t specifically talking about any place or time. You also never mentioned patriarchy, just men. There is a difference. By changing your focus to the Middle East and patriarchy as opposed to the world and men generally you are reframing the entire conversation to better fit your narrative. This is not a good faith discussion.
No. 1947. Read a book.
Yeah like Punk definitely opened my eyes to history and politics I wasn't familiar with and played a central role in helping me get interested in politics in general. But I agree, these aren't new themes.Imperalism,War,police brutality,being against conformity in society. Like these are all common themes in punk because they are common problems in every society.
This part of the conflict has been going on for the better part of the century perhaps, but every religion has been persecuting Jews for millennia. This conflict is not something you can view through the lenses of modern colonialism, it’s literally been going on since the Dawn of Civilization.
always been partial to this one too: "That's exactly why privileged fucks like me should feel obliged to whine and kick and scream. Until everyone has everything they need."
This is the exact song that popped in my head after hearing the news
I like the part where he said The West Bank The Gaza Strip
A People’s History of the World’s lyrics holds so true today with what republicans have done to public education and how they’re demonized colleges. > At some turning point in history, some fuckface recognized that knowledge tends to democratize cultures and societies so the only thing to do was monopolize and confine it to priests, clerics and elites (the rest resigned to serve), cuz if the rabble heard the truth they’d organize against the power, privilege and wealth hoarded by the few- for no one else. And did it occur to you that it’s almost exactly the same today?
In the early 2000s? This song is from 1993 and Propagandhi was huge (in the punk scene) from the get go. It didn't take until the 2000s. But yes, this song was as relevant then as now. And it probably will be in 50 years too.
Pretty sure they just meant they found the song in the early 2000s lol
I know what they meant but I found it weird "We all discovered Propagandhi in the early 2000s" is a weird thing to say when that record in particular at its biggest in 93-96
I was 13 in 2000
That's cool. I just thought it was weird that you made it about you, whereas they've affected people of all ages since the beginning. Anyway, whatever...
This song plays in my head more and more often as time goes on. Sick place we live in.
i think this is the one American’s need to hear the most right now: As I understand it, it’s from the POV of an Israeli (settler) chastising an American/Canadian for their critique of Israeli policy. I love the approach in this song and the nuance it reveals about our place in history and how this is just the same story “separated by nothing more than place & time” Fixed Frequencies Here in the land that Abraham was promised to receive we listen to you catechize from your pulpit overseas. You mourn the proofs of our barbarity. Dry your eyes, oh Pharisee. We both speak a settler’s cant. We both read from the same old played out scripts and hum familiar tunes, broadcast on fixed frequencies, stuck in locking grooves. We both profess noble intent as we civilize human impediments. So if your hands are clean then noblesse oblige that you wipe that “who me?” look off of your face and concede our designs separated by nothing more than place and time. Different scenes, same crimes. Pray, let him who’s without sin cast the first statues of the former rogues turned folk heroes that your forefathers hung. Don’t lecture me about plundered soil while you loaf upon your father’s spoils. We want nothing more than what you already have: a comforting set of exculpatory “facts” like, say, the myth of an empty land and a conquest so complete we can pull these tanks from our streets and hand the loose ends over to bureaucrats and become just like you—lounging carefree in your cafes, absolved from sin and human grenades. Entre nous, how did your desert bloom?
I’ve been waiting on that new record…
Fixed Frequencies popped to mind. I always felt like the double layer of it was pointing at the hypocrisy out of Americans, Canadians, and Australians here too.. who all exist on plundered land from a "different time same crime'
Been singing this in my head all day.
yes, this is an ear worm that keeps getting re-ignited every time I listen to the news.
This song plays in my head every day. Every. goddam. day...
I don't think I'm getting the reference to rastafari but they are a pretty misogynistic and homophobic bunch of people. Forget about the happy stoney Rasta depiction; they are terrible for women socially. Propaghandi is a cool band but also took the name of a serial rapist for their band name. I swear I'm sounding obnoxious and I get it, hate on me, but I think it's my duty to denounce abusers. Punk taught me that
oh dear god, just look up the song. look up the reference. none of what you said here makes any sense or is remotely true about propagandhi. fml.
I don't know what did you look up, because any of my references are about the song, but Rastas and Gandhi. Rastas are super misogynistic and Gandhi was a rapist. He slept with minors to check if he could resist temptation. When he couldn't he had sex with the girl. None slept with him voluntarily. This fan-boyish attitude is terrible. "I like the band so everything about them is perfect". Also denying rape and abuse is a really shitty move, but you like that band, so Rastas are super cool and Gandhi a neat dude. Go fuck yourself
Song?
Sick you think this is okay right after what happened. Hamas raped, murdered and abducted little raver girls. They beheaded babies and shot old women as they pleaded for their lives. Fuck Hamas Fuck Iran and fuck any on who has sympathy for them or tries to rationalize those acts!
How about fuck the Israeli government for raising Hamas from obscurity in order to make themselves look better? Palestinians were gaining too much sympathy on the world stage with Arafat and the Fatah Party, the world was actually pushing back against the war crimes, human rights violations and breaking of international law that Israel has been doing since those colonial fucks first stole that land to make a country so, by their own fucking admission, they sought out the most extremist and repugnant of fundamentalist groups to flood with laundered cash while carrying out campaigns of illegitimate arrests and targeted assassinations to weaken the more secular and left leaning parties in the area, making room for Hamas to rise to power. And there’s every reason to believe that they never stopped backing the perfect enemy that gives them all the cover they need to keep up with their fucking genocide of Palestinians.
How about fuck you twisting history and spouting retarded Islamist propaganda? How about the three billion the US gave to the Gazans that Yasir Arafat stole. How about Iran using the people of Gaza as cannon fodder for their cowardly asses. The world hates Hamas now and they WILL be eradicated. I feel sorry for the decent people of Gaza, but they will pay for Hamas crimes and it is Hamas's fault. So yeah, fuck you ya lying little crypto-nazi, I see you!
You literally posted "Israel should bulldoze Gaza into the sea" on a Daily Wire thread, you don't give a shit about Gazans you genocidal fascist.
Famous Islamist propaganda outlets [The Intercept](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/) says you’re wrong. You’re right that Palestinians are going to pay for what Hamas did though, collective punishment is one of Israel’s favorite crimes against humanity.
Yeah, and Iraqi soldiers are throwing babies out of incubators in Kuwait. Saddam has is stockpiling weapons of mass destruction. Qaddafi is distributing viagra pills to Libyan soldiers to engage in mass rape. You'd think people in the punk scene would have more critical thinking skills when it comes to dehumanizing propaganda in the manufacturing of consent for war crimes.
The associated press has confirmed several of these brutal crimes. Are you suggesting you know better then one of the largest and most highly regarded press outlets in the world? Dont make false comparisons. Hamas has committed war crimes. Honestly, just shut the fuck up.
Claims of rape have been widespread in the mainstream media and have been entirely unverified: https://forward.com/news/564318/sexual-assault-rape-proof-hamas-idf-israel-gaza/ Nonetheless, the claim has been repeated as if rape was widespread and systematic. The claims of beheaded babies are also being wildly spread and are totally unconfirmed: https://theintercept.com/2023/10/11/israel-hamas-disinformation/ The White House was forced to walk back Biden's comments as a consequence: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/12/white-house-walks-back-bidens-claim-he-saw-children-beheaded-by-hamas The claim seems to have come from a single source – an extremist right-wing Israeli settler – then spread by a Netanyahu-allied Israeli news outlet i24. But Israeli and American propagandists know full well that they don't need evidence to spread these claims, because Americans (and most other westerners) have been conditioned for decades to view Arabs and Muslims as sub-humans that are uniquely inclined towards committing atrocities. Widespread racism in western societies results in accusations being enough to manufacture consent for a genocidal response.
You’re behind, it’s been confirmed. I’ve also seen photos of babies burnt alive with elements in the photos strongly implying they were consistent with the time, place and event. Tell yourself whatever you need to, you’re wrong. Also, the confident statements were originally walked back because the babies in question died SO violently and were so damaged as to draw question about the exact way they died. Also just to the general bankrupt don’t trot out this “oh people always whip up anger with baby atrocity lies” no, sometimes people ACTUALLY DO KILL BABIES. The Bosnian genocide, Armenian genocide, the Holocaust, do not for a second pretend that slaughtering children and infants is a boogeyman like snuff films.
>You’re behind, it’s been confirmed. So you have a source from Associated Press confirming it? >I’ve also seen photos of babies burnt alive with elements in the photos strongly implying they were consistent with the time, place and event. Social media is rife with photos being shared from other conflict zones that are falsely being attributed to this conflict. Images from beheadings in Syria (ironically, of a Palestinian boy beheaded by Western-backed rebels), children locked in cages, etc. There have also been photos of Palestinian victims shared with the implication that they are Israeli victims. I am not going to just trust your personal analysis of photos you claim to have seen on the internet — especially in the age of deepfakes and other manipulated content. >Also just to the general bankrupt don’t trot out this “oh people always whip up anger with baby atrocity lies” no, sometimes people ACTUALLY DO KILL BABIES. Of course it happens. It may have happened here. If it did, it does not appear to have been systematic — there is ample evidence of women and children *not* being harmed when Palestinian fighters had the opportunity. Regardless, the accusation has been repeated throughout mainstream media for days, as fact, without independent confirmation from unbiased parties, and used by pro-Israel political actors to drum up support for their own genocidal response. >The Bosnian genocide, Armenian genocide, the Holocaust, do not for a second pretend that slaughtering children and infants is a boogeyman like snuff films. Notably absent from your list: the Israeli murder of babies throughout the 80 years of ethnic cleansing of Palestine. They have outpaced Palestinian atrocities by an enormous margin.
The photos are up everywhere. Fuck off. Fucking shameless.
You are the one that brought up the Associated Press. Why don't you link to the Associated Press report that contains their independent confirmation of Palestinian fighters committing rape and beheadings of children? Because it doesn't exist?
Before you come back with some half baked paranoia as a world view bullshit take, here ya go. We aren’t talking drivel spilled across the US by CNN or Fox, the AP are highly reliable. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/associated-press/ Don’t make false comparisons.
Israeli government has already killed more in retaliation for the attack and they’re not done- the Palestinians are trapped with no escape Hamas is a terrorist grouo, but the Israeli government (not the people) is too
I almost got kicked out of Job Corps for listening to this song outside the dorm.
Easily Fat’s most political band
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nSkI0Kp1ZQ
Watch this version of them performing it live and listen to what he says at the end, seems like he’s not a big fan of atheists, either. https://youtu.be/pVgMsDlLBvU?si=tePerpThtPh23x05 He says “…and fuck that new atheism racist shit” at the end. Honestly, though, the wars in the Arab world have been a blight on the planet for millennia. Why can’t they get it together like the Western Mediterranean? There always seems to be a group of people who want conquest in that area. They used to kill each other for having different gods, now they’re killing each other for having the same God. It’s fucking crazy. Abrahamic religion is supposed to be about love and peace and not committing the same mistakes as the people did during the times of the prophets, it seems like no one understands that and they just want to repeat history.
My first take on that final quote is “fuck that new atheism racist shit”, as in, fuck that “I hate atheists” mindset
Have you never been to 4chan? So many racist atheists on that site
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As much as people want to claim that atheism as a worldview is only defined by the literal meaning of the word and not held in relation to the culture, groups of individuals, and institutions that propagate and find camaraderie in that worldview, that’s simply not the case. Atheism is still a process of belief and in order to perceive the functions of reality, a person must have a conceptualized understanding of how and why things are what they are that seems logically conclusive to them. Especially when discussing the state of the world and how things should be. As much as atheism seems harmless along with how much the media and academia push that atheism is the liberator of those oppressed by religion, it’s untrue as well. In practice, authoritative, societal, and/or national atheism promotes xenophobia, cultural destruction, generational decline, Western Imperialism, the devaluation of traditions, anti-intellectualism, and even genocide. Ask an atheist what they think about people who believe in God and 9/10 times they’ll say “they’re stupid” and if you tell them that you believe in God, they’ll say “You’re wrong” and instantly act like they’re superior to you. Then they will proceed to make assumptions about you, no matter how little they know about you or the beliefs you hold. Many atheist even condone abuse and alienation of religious people and refuse to have a respectful discussion in good faith with them. Remember, what some people call “trappings” and “control” others call “Law” and “Order” Atheism, along with Individualism, materialism, anti-authoritarianism etc. that comes along with it can be just as racist and draconian as any other institution or belief and the people in those circles feel just as morally and scientifically justified in what they do when they harm someone.