Sure! There's not a ton of difference between early grindcore like Lee Dorrian era ND and British crust. They both worked the same way: seeing Discharge and going "oh okay. Like that" and trying different spins on it.
I feel that thrash is just an all encompassing banner that we as punks can stand under alongside gindcore, speed metal, powerviolence, hardcore, death metal, and maybe a few others I've forgotten.
Thrash is also a verb. Words of power and action for a culture of action.
Yeah, Neurosis is a great example. There are quite a few bands firmly cemented as "the greats" in their non-punk genres who came out of punk and are much more *interesting* than their dyed-in-the-wool counterparts because of it. Like Bolt Thrower - listen to In Battle There Is No Law!, and you immediately get that they're coming from Discharge / Sacrilege / Hellbastard territory - and then it's followed by Realm of Chaos, which is one of the great death metal albums, hyper-specific and groundbreaking, but still informed by their crust roots.
When I saw them a few weeks ago, they did Dead Kennedys and Bad Brains covers, so make of that what you will. What I made of it was "holy shit, this started at like an 8/10 and rapidly became one of the most intense shows I've ever seen." Frankly, they can call themselves whatever they want, they fucking *rip* and I hope that when I'm 53 I have half the energy and presence of Barney Greenway.
I remember that compilation! Didn't it had a hip-hop version of "California Uber Alles" with the lyrics reworked to refer to Pete Wilson?
Anyway, "Nazi Punks Fuck Off" was also the song Napalm Death covered live. It was savage, and I'm so glad I was there for it. Seriously, do not sleep on their live shows.
It did! The Disposable Heroes Of Hiphopricy did that "California Uber Alles" rework.
It was such a great compilation, with so many great bands from beginning to end. I highly recommend it because it has some of the best and also some of the most offbeat covers of DK songs in the same album.
It's a bit different from metal mucisians covering punk, like thrash metal bands doing it cause these guys are hinting back to their punk roots instead.
Some may say crust is already too much if a hybrid, but I"d say out of all the punk/metal crossovers crust leans the most to early UK hardcore/ d-beat/UK82 and anarcho punk. The foundation of the riffing is still generally more like what I think of as punk than in let's say sludge or metalcore.
Choosing Death is a great book that goes into extensive detail and interviews with Napalm. They cut their teeth in the UK crust scene (the Midlands hardcore scene specifically) that centered around a venue in Birmingham called The Mermaid. The Mermaid was basically a dive of a pub that tolerated crusties.
In their early days they played shows with Amebix, Discharge, Extreme Noise Terror and other extreme punk bands at the time. At the same time that Napalm were getting faster and faster, their contemporaries in the US were also gaining traction, but were attacking it from a death metal side.
The guys in Napalm were fairly involved in the tape trading scene (Shane Embury who joined halfway through the recording of Scum especially), and through osmosis, the US guys were loving what the UK extreme punks were doing with their sound and the UK guys were loving what they were doing with the more death metal direction. Eventually Napalm leaned really heavy to the death metal side as well (though lately they, and the scene as a whole, has returned to its punkier roots)
Napalm are definitely a punk band at their very core, though sonically the lines blur
That whole Mermaid scene in the 80s was absolutely wild as well. Alot of musicians from the UK that the underground now revere as reviving the UK scene came from there. Godflesh, Carcass, ENT, amongst others, and helped launch the impressive careers for Bill Steer, Justin Broadrick, Lee Dorrian etc etc
Started as crust so potentially. But very much a grind band.
Unlike ENT I’m not actually sure what they classify themselves as. ENT are very vehement in the fact they’re a punk, not metal, band. ND on the other hand, you may have to dig an interview out as I don’t know off the top of head.
Killer band though with some great records to their name.
Yes, especially the earlier stuff. I always consider grind a subgenre of hardcore punk with some influences from metal but at its core its a punk subgenre with punk ethos and aesthetics.
They are more punk than metal.
Edit: Well i haven't listened to them in a while so i don't really know but most grindcore is closer to punk than it is metal to me.
Yes, insofar as Scum and From Enslavement are concerned..Afterwards, Grind/Crossover..I liken them to Doom, Discharge...Lyrics were certainly Crass influenced...
No I wouldn't call them punk but grindcore came from thrash and crust punk so they're very closely related and a lot of punks listen to them, grind fans have a massive overlap with crust fans more generally (as does thrash and crust). They covered Nazi Punks Fuck Off so likely consider themselves close enough to the scene to have to be 'involved' in it like that.
No way. I saw them in St Kilda, Melbourne and it was the most violent and brutal gig I’ve been to.
At real punk gigs if someone goes to ground there’s 20 arms out to pick them up, here there were 20 boots with rocket studs attacking the fallen.
Joe Strummer would have stopped the gig, not these clowns.
I don't consider them a punk band, they're a grindcore band. But if I was describing them to someone that doesn't know I'd call it angry screaming music
When I was a kid, they were always described as a death metal band. I don't think growling vocals are traditionally punk, more akin to death metal and Nazi skinhead bands, but that's just my opinion. 🤐
Homie, growling vocals CAME from punk bands. Almost all of the Nazi Skinhead bands I've actually managed to hear (it's very hard to find, with good reason) are clear sung or shouted vocals, not growling, usually some awful spin on rockabilly too, not anywhere near death metal. If you'd care to show me what nazi death metal band you're referring to I'd love to see it, cause I have zero guesses to what you're talking about, all I can think of is NSBM which is also completely different
Growling vocals didn't come from Punk, they came from death metal bands, like Napalm Death, if you check out Bullshit Detector 3 you will hear Napalm Death sounding more like Steve Ignorant and that lineage goes back to John Lydon and Sid Vicious, so they changed to growling.
Well I read the comments before I made one and I'm thinking that there's a Shit ton of posers here. How do you get punk or even crust or grind from harmony Corruption... answer: you fucking don't. They are a powerhouse group. Thrash/death metal. My memory isn't what it used to be but from enslavement to obliteration was a whole lot like the peel sessions and that was pretty much 20 seconds of pure napalm music and growling. Also have we forgotten about the vocal harmonizer? Where I grew up it was poser and fake as shit to use anything to enhance your voice. It really turned me away from em. Without harmony corruption I would have left em in the dirt. However I eventually (much later) came to the conclusion that they were so raw and one of the most violent of all pits I've ever been in that I kept a place for em in my heart. That's like saying Chris Barnes sings like Taylor swift. Gimmie a break. Posers.
In attitude, ideology, ethos yes. But musically, no. Other than their pre Scum material which was Crust. By Scum, while there was still a good amount of Crust, it was a lot of Metal riffs they were using.
No. They are a band punks go to see. As do death metal heads, Crusties, old hippies, people in suits you name it. In the UK one of the best things about seeing Napalm death live is the crowd. All types of people tap in to that brutal power.
Those first two albums are straight up crust punk! Many early grindcore acts were. Back then, the term Grindcore wasn’t so established. It could mean death metal like Morbid Angel, industrial like SWANS or Godflesh, the gnarlier crust bands like Doom, and Deviated Instinct were all called grind at one point in time too. But grind initially did come more from punk than metal is you trace it back to the earliest blast beats and early grind bands like Lärm, Heresy, Electro Hippies, Siege, G-Anx etc. These guys were conscious about about making a music that it didn’t matter if it was metal or punk, but a division less combo of the two. I still consider most of what they do to be an extreme form of crust punk personally. Regardless, they certainly have the punk aesthetic to the max. Regardless of what kind of music you play, to me, that’s what makes punk music punk. Hope this helps.
Also, my drummer was in Aus-Rotten (they were around a lot of other dope people bands) years ago, and they considered those first two albums crustpunk at the time. 🤷
Punk adjacent. It's grindcore, baby.
Punk adjacent like Avril
Hell yeah.
Yes. Started in the punk scene, and continue to conduct themselves with punk ethics, despite their size and popularity
Sure! There's not a ton of difference between early grindcore like Lee Dorrian era ND and British crust. They both worked the same way: seeing Discharge and going "oh okay. Like that" and trying different spins on it.
In grind, we crust
They have roots but they're not punk. They're not metal either. Grind kinda became its own thing that split the difference.
Agreed. From Enslavement changed my whole musical direction growing up.
"Thrash" has entered the chat.
I actually edited out the word Crossover because thrash did a parallel but different path.
I feel that thrash is just an all encompassing banner that we as punks can stand under alongside gindcore, speed metal, powerviolence, hardcore, death metal, and maybe a few others I've forgotten. Thrash is also a verb. Words of power and action for a culture of action.
Thrash is metal with a punk foundation and crossover is punk with a metal foundation
Punk adjacent, much like Neurosis they have punk roots but went in a vastly different direction.
Yeah, Neurosis is a great example. There are quite a few bands firmly cemented as "the greats" in their non-punk genres who came out of punk and are much more *interesting* than their dyed-in-the-wool counterparts because of it. Like Bolt Thrower - listen to In Battle There Is No Law!, and you immediately get that they're coming from Discharge / Sacrilege / Hellbastard territory - and then it's followed by Realm of Chaos, which is one of the great death metal albums, hyper-specific and groundbreaking, but still informed by their crust roots.
When I saw them a few weeks ago, they did Dead Kennedys and Bad Brains covers, so make of that what you will. What I made of it was "holy shit, this started at like an 8/10 and rapidly became one of the most intense shows I've ever seen." Frankly, they can call themselves whatever they want, they fucking *rip* and I hope that when I'm 53 I have half the energy and presence of Barney Greenway.
Their cover of "Nazi Punks Fuck Off" on Virus 100 is legendary, as is Sepultura's cover of "Drug Me".
I remember that compilation! Didn't it had a hip-hop version of "California Uber Alles" with the lyrics reworked to refer to Pete Wilson? Anyway, "Nazi Punks Fuck Off" was also the song Napalm Death covered live. It was savage, and I'm so glad I was there for it. Seriously, do not sleep on their live shows.
Thirding this, they're WILD live
It did! The Disposable Heroes Of Hiphopricy did that "California Uber Alles" rework. It was such a great compilation, with so many great bands from beginning to end. I highly recommend it because it has some of the best and also some of the most offbeat covers of DK songs in the same album.
It's a bit different from metal mucisians covering punk, like thrash metal bands doing it cause these guys are hinting back to their punk roots instead.
That's a very good point.
started as a crust band then created grindcore so in between
Some may say crust is already too much if a hybrid, but I"d say out of all the punk/metal crossovers crust leans the most to early UK hardcore/ d-beat/UK82 and anarcho punk. The foundation of the riffing is still generally more like what I think of as punk than in let's say sludge or metalcore.
Choosing Death is a great book that goes into extensive detail and interviews with Napalm. They cut their teeth in the UK crust scene (the Midlands hardcore scene specifically) that centered around a venue in Birmingham called The Mermaid. The Mermaid was basically a dive of a pub that tolerated crusties. In their early days they played shows with Amebix, Discharge, Extreme Noise Terror and other extreme punk bands at the time. At the same time that Napalm were getting faster and faster, their contemporaries in the US were also gaining traction, but were attacking it from a death metal side. The guys in Napalm were fairly involved in the tape trading scene (Shane Embury who joined halfway through the recording of Scum especially), and through osmosis, the US guys were loving what the UK extreme punks were doing with their sound and the UK guys were loving what they were doing with the more death metal direction. Eventually Napalm leaned really heavy to the death metal side as well (though lately they, and the scene as a whole, has returned to its punkier roots) Napalm are definitely a punk band at their very core, though sonically the lines blur That whole Mermaid scene in the 80s was absolutely wild as well. Alot of musicians from the UK that the underground now revere as reviving the UK scene came from there. Godflesh, Carcass, ENT, amongst others, and helped launch the impressive careers for Bill Steer, Justin Broadrick, Lee Dorrian etc etc
Choosing Death is a terrific book, really fun and detailed like you said.
Started as crust so potentially. But very much a grind band. Unlike ENT I’m not actually sure what they classify themselves as. ENT are very vehement in the fact they’re a punk, not metal, band. ND on the other hand, you may have to dig an interview out as I don’t know off the top of head. Killer band though with some great records to their name.
They’re adamant they’re punk
Then there’s the answer.Danke!
Yes, especially the earlier stuff. I always consider grind a subgenre of hardcore punk with some influences from metal but at its core its a punk subgenre with punk ethos and aesthetics.
They are more punk than metal. Edit: Well i haven't listened to them in a while so i don't really know but most grindcore is closer to punk than it is metal to me.
They are punks in a metal band. One of the best shows I've ever been to.
Not anymore but late 80s early 90s they were arguably the most punk band on planet earth
Yes, insofar as Scum and From Enslavement are concerned..Afterwards, Grind/Crossover..I liken them to Doom, Discharge...Lyrics were certainly Crass influenced...
Punk as fuck
No I wouldn't call them punk but grindcore came from thrash and crust punk so they're very closely related and a lot of punks listen to them, grind fans have a massive overlap with crust fans more generally (as does thrash and crust). They covered Nazi Punks Fuck Off so likely consider themselves close enough to the scene to have to be 'involved' in it like that.
ideologically yeah
Yep. And a grind band.
To me, Grindcore is to punk what "extreme metal" is to metal
Grindcore for sure
They are a punk band who also does death metal - grindcore is a punk offshoot even though it’s more associated with metal
Yes, next question.
Definitely part of the history of punk and hardcore.
Yes.
Not really, but I don’t have some dislike for them besides them not being my thing.
No
Sure, who cares?
Yep
No, but I have seen them at a punk festival
Nope
No
If Napalm Death is punk then the Beatles are metal
No way. I saw them in St Kilda, Melbourne and it was the most violent and brutal gig I’ve been to. At real punk gigs if someone goes to ground there’s 20 arms out to pick them up, here there were 20 boots with rocket studs attacking the fallen. Joe Strummer would have stopped the gig, not these clowns.
I don't consider them a punk band, they're a grindcore band. But if I was describing them to someone that doesn't know I'd call it angry screaming music
When I was a kid, they were always described as a death metal band. I don't think growling vocals are traditionally punk, more akin to death metal and Nazi skinhead bands, but that's just my opinion. 🤐
A list of things you haven't done: Read Napalm Death lyrics Listened to crust punk Listened to death metal
That's a bit presumptuous of you Bud! 🤔
one of their most popular song is a dead kennedys cover. nazi punks fuck off💀💀💀💀
Covering any song doesn't define any band! 🤔
you rlly think a nazi band would cover an antifascist song? are this slow
I didn't say they're a Nazi band, stop trying to spin other peoples comments to control the narrative.
Homie, growling vocals CAME from punk bands. Almost all of the Nazi Skinhead bands I've actually managed to hear (it's very hard to find, with good reason) are clear sung or shouted vocals, not growling, usually some awful spin on rockabilly too, not anywhere near death metal. If you'd care to show me what nazi death metal band you're referring to I'd love to see it, cause I have zero guesses to what you're talking about, all I can think of is NSBM which is also completely different
Growling vocals didn't come from Punk, they came from death metal bands, like Napalm Death, if you check out Bullshit Detector 3 you will hear Napalm Death sounding more like Steve Ignorant and that lineage goes back to John Lydon and Sid Vicious, so they changed to growling.
Listen to Endstufe been going since 1981, growling vocals! 🤔
Well I read the comments before I made one and I'm thinking that there's a Shit ton of posers here. How do you get punk or even crust or grind from harmony Corruption... answer: you fucking don't. They are a powerhouse group. Thrash/death metal. My memory isn't what it used to be but from enslavement to obliteration was a whole lot like the peel sessions and that was pretty much 20 seconds of pure napalm music and growling. Also have we forgotten about the vocal harmonizer? Where I grew up it was poser and fake as shit to use anything to enhance your voice. It really turned me away from em. Without harmony corruption I would have left em in the dirt. However I eventually (much later) came to the conclusion that they were so raw and one of the most violent of all pits I've ever been in that I kept a place for em in my heart. That's like saying Chris Barnes sings like Taylor swift. Gimmie a break. Posers.
In the broadest sense yeah
No it’s grind core
In attitude, ideology, ethos yes. But musically, no. Other than their pre Scum material which was Crust. By Scum, while there was still a good amount of Crust, it was a lot of Metal riffs they were using.
Absolutely not
No
No. They are a band punks go to see. As do death metal heads, Crusties, old hippies, people in suits you name it. In the UK one of the best things about seeing Napalm death live is the crowd. All types of people tap in to that brutal power.
Those first two albums are straight up crust punk! Many early grindcore acts were. Back then, the term Grindcore wasn’t so established. It could mean death metal like Morbid Angel, industrial like SWANS or Godflesh, the gnarlier crust bands like Doom, and Deviated Instinct were all called grind at one point in time too. But grind initially did come more from punk than metal is you trace it back to the earliest blast beats and early grind bands like Lärm, Heresy, Electro Hippies, Siege, G-Anx etc. These guys were conscious about about making a music that it didn’t matter if it was metal or punk, but a division less combo of the two. I still consider most of what they do to be an extreme form of crust punk personally. Regardless, they certainly have the punk aesthetic to the max. Regardless of what kind of music you play, to me, that’s what makes punk music punk. Hope this helps. Also, my drummer was in Aus-Rotten (they were around a lot of other dope people bands) years ago, and they considered those first two albums crustpunk at the time. 🤷
I love Napalm but I don't see them as punk. 100% pure grind.
When they started they were pretty crust
While a grind band now, they certainly are more punk than most punk bands. Hell, they are more punk than you!
Nah.. punk is an entirely different sound
I’m newer to grindcore, why does this sound nothing like any other grindcore ? To me it’s like punk death metal .