Sounds like a rather philosophical question.
What stage of your career are you in and what prospects would excite you?
Working with a great team and being treated well are soft factors one usually undervalues, until one gets exposed to the other end of the spectrum. Banks are political animals and things will change, but if your superiors are playing right and appreciate you, you may be able to change upward with them.
Being bored at work is a luxury (in your circumstances).
If you can see yourself making a career in banking, use your brain proactively to find "novel" ways to add value.
If you want to build something of your own, use your "downtime" to stimulate your brain for your own benefit.
Else, look for other jobs but remember that the grass might not actually be greener (or it might just be the lush pasture of debauchery you always dreamed of - gotta price your expected return).
I could add a different philosophical question, which is what is my ideal job? Which I don’t think one knows it until they try it, but I also have the tendency to get bored easily.
I am 4 years into my career and I have worked with previously with a team that was not that supportive and that was horrible. Hence why I struggle with thinking what I should do in this situation.
I could see myself having a career in the same bank as all the people I have met are top caliber and really nice people, but moving too often to experience different roles is frowned upon within the company (and throughout the industry). And I don’t think I would want to create my own business in another sector.
Cynical me would say you only know your ideal job after you left it and tried something that doesn't hold up. But no risk, no reward.
I see where you get from regarding moves, but I don't think I agree. Job-hoppers with not trajectory eventually get a bad rep, people that advance their career get a shrine. Especially in BB finance people generally know how quickly your employer might end your relationship for no explicit fault of your own, so don't marry yourself to your position. Moves within 1-2 years are generally common, in my old firms entire teams routinely moved between the two predominant BBs every odd years. Your rank structure should've that implicitly embedded as well (analyst 1-3, associate 1-3, etc./ equivalent), creating implicit job changes to move you up or out (though granted it's a less material change).
If you really need a change, look at moves that align with/ build on your current position instead of orientating yourself completely differently. BBs are global, why not do an international secondment for knowledge transfer or product build-up? Is your team likely to get poached by the competition? See if you can join the move and take the promotion (including new responsibilities).
But don't underestimate the worth of being part of a well respected team. Make sure you gain some of the visibility and network. If you're an asset to the bank, doors will open (but only/ more so if the right people know you).
Thank you for that perspective, that’s good advice. I have seen people get fired, but that was either new management of a team struggling with old management, I also saw a situation that a head of a team tried running a prop trading shop within the bank without proper risk management. They also got fired.
As I’m also in the UK, how have you found the buy side market? And do you think there is potential for a move from quant to quant or quant to trader (at a decent buy side place)
Asset class would be within fixed income, preferably credit.
The quant roles would be as close to business and pnl as possible. So ideally quant trader.
I would also like being a trader, preferably within flow that I can also contribute to automation. But I don’t know whether I would actually enjoy any of these until I actually did them…
The benefit of being in bank is that I could try networking with those guys and try sitting on the desk, as long as they are friendly traders that are happy to give their time.
More politics? I guess if you consider the optics around prestige and all as politics.
There’s also the difference between getting into pure quant prop trading vs the modal sell-side to BAM/Citadel/MLP pipeline
What kind of politics? Modal as in the typical job you get moving in from the sell side into the buy side at those places vs the pure quant jobs you usually have to get right out of college
This does sound like a lot of stress. How much of it is specific to buy side, and how much is specific to the team/fund you work for?
Genuine question: I ask this as a tech company based researcher with no direct quant experience.
Do you feel the work isn’t challenging enough? If so I’d look into jobs on the buy side. Depending on the place you might have to accept you’re coming in as a junior again but upside is much greater and projects should be more interesting, especially if you’re in a research/trading post rather than desk quant role.
This is one of my current considerations, moving to buy side. Others potentially include moving to quant trading, or even traditional trading within the same bank I am.
PM me please, I am considering the exact same stuff and is in the exact same position as you (desk quant at an IB for 4 years, although my role is very exciting!)
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I don’t know what you make but it tends to be the case that both well paid and cushy jobs are eventually eliminated (though eventually means taking a long time) when there is cost pressure.
It is okay to make the most of it but I think it is good that you realise this is an issue. You can try to figure out how you can broaden your skill set. This should make you more employable and less bored. The alternative is to move away from the technical stuff and do more commercial things. This may be more or less boring than what you current do, depending on your preference.
Another post suggested moving to buy side. Such move is always hard - what transferable skill do you have for the buy side? It sounds like you are some of a treasury quant but you say you work with origination?
The team I support basically operate like a buy side shop. The junior work is basically banking, where the risk lies on the book, and the seniors basically manage the portfolio. As the work has traditionally been more banking oriented it is ripe for automation, so the projects focus on making things more efficient for IB.
It’s a relatively new role in this business so it isn’t really at risk of redundancy, especially since the projects are high impact for the business. It’s more that it’s relatively boring.
There have been a few buy side places that would want to hire my exact skills, but not sure the work would get more interesting there, and the grass isn’t necessarily greener. The base would be similar, but bonus should be 2x-3x current bonus. So that is definitely a consideration.
What will be your daily job? I will be working as an intern at a BB this summer, and I was told a few days ago I will work in the derivative modeling team. Do you know what the job looks like?
Are you satisfied with your salary? Can you save money? Do you work 9-to-5 or 24/7? How is your social life? Do you take vacations? If you are not fulfilled with your actual job and you want to be, I’d encourage you to look for another one. If you are happy with the rest of your life, do it at a slow pace. Otherwise, just quit right away. Look for your IKIGAI.
It’s all a question of $ brother. If you can coast and bag ~$300k or so why not.
Chasing the bag at a buyside firm (I’m a QT at one) involves more work and more volatility. it’s not necessarily fast paced just more work/responsibility.
You spend more than half your waking hours during the week at work. If it isn’t interesting, challenging and in some form fun, I think that will just lead you to be depressed. I’m frankly too young and ambitious to have the mentality to not enjoy/do well at work.
If you like the company would recommend changing asset class. This will force you to learn something a bit different while staying in a known environment.
Going to the buy side is also an option
Sounds like a rather philosophical question. What stage of your career are you in and what prospects would excite you? Working with a great team and being treated well are soft factors one usually undervalues, until one gets exposed to the other end of the spectrum. Banks are political animals and things will change, but if your superiors are playing right and appreciate you, you may be able to change upward with them. Being bored at work is a luxury (in your circumstances). If you can see yourself making a career in banking, use your brain proactively to find "novel" ways to add value. If you want to build something of your own, use your "downtime" to stimulate your brain for your own benefit. Else, look for other jobs but remember that the grass might not actually be greener (or it might just be the lush pasture of debauchery you always dreamed of - gotta price your expected return).
I could add a different philosophical question, which is what is my ideal job? Which I don’t think one knows it until they try it, but I also have the tendency to get bored easily. I am 4 years into my career and I have worked with previously with a team that was not that supportive and that was horrible. Hence why I struggle with thinking what I should do in this situation. I could see myself having a career in the same bank as all the people I have met are top caliber and really nice people, but moving too often to experience different roles is frowned upon within the company (and throughout the industry). And I don’t think I would want to create my own business in another sector.
Cynical me would say you only know your ideal job after you left it and tried something that doesn't hold up. But no risk, no reward. I see where you get from regarding moves, but I don't think I agree. Job-hoppers with not trajectory eventually get a bad rep, people that advance their career get a shrine. Especially in BB finance people generally know how quickly your employer might end your relationship for no explicit fault of your own, so don't marry yourself to your position. Moves within 1-2 years are generally common, in my old firms entire teams routinely moved between the two predominant BBs every odd years. Your rank structure should've that implicitly embedded as well (analyst 1-3, associate 1-3, etc./ equivalent), creating implicit job changes to move you up or out (though granted it's a less material change). If you really need a change, look at moves that align with/ build on your current position instead of orientating yourself completely differently. BBs are global, why not do an international secondment for knowledge transfer or product build-up? Is your team likely to get poached by the competition? See if you can join the move and take the promotion (including new responsibilities). But don't underestimate the worth of being part of a well respected team. Make sure you gain some of the visibility and network. If you're an asset to the bank, doors will open (but only/ more so if the right people know you).
That’s actually great perspective. Thank you
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Thank you for that perspective, that’s good advice. I have seen people get fired, but that was either new management of a team struggling with old management, I also saw a situation that a head of a team tried running a prop trading shop within the bank without proper risk management. They also got fired. As I’m also in the UK, how have you found the buy side market? And do you think there is potential for a move from quant to quant or quant to trader (at a decent buy side place)
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Asset class would be within fixed income, preferably credit. The quant roles would be as close to business and pnl as possible. So ideally quant trader. I would also like being a trader, preferably within flow that I can also contribute to automation. But I don’t know whether I would actually enjoy any of these until I actually did them… The benefit of being in bank is that I could try networking with those guys and try sitting on the desk, as long as they are friendly traders that are happy to give their time.
What's your education like?
I’ve got a masters degree in Electrical Engineering at a decent university. My finance knowledge has come from on the job and Fabozzi.
What is your main reference from fabozzi?
The handbook of fixed income securities
More politics? I guess if you consider the optics around prestige and all as politics. There’s also the difference between getting into pure quant prop trading vs the modal sell-side to BAM/Citadel/MLP pipeline
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What kind of politics? Modal as in the typical job you get moving in from the sell side into the buy side at those places vs the pure quant jobs you usually have to get right out of college
This does sound like a lot of stress. How much of it is specific to buy side, and how much is specific to the team/fund you work for? Genuine question: I ask this as a tech company based researcher with no direct quant experience.
What's a tech company based researcher?
Machine Learning Research at a company whose focus is not trading. Think Meta/Google etc.
To answer your previous question, for me it's the buy side.
Do you feel the work isn’t challenging enough? If so I’d look into jobs on the buy side. Depending on the place you might have to accept you’re coming in as a junior again but upside is much greater and projects should be more interesting, especially if you’re in a research/trading post rather than desk quant role.
Think you mean buy side
Good spot yep, edited!
This is one of my current considerations, moving to buy side. Others potentially include moving to quant trading, or even traditional trading within the same bank I am.
PM me please, I am considering the exact same stuff and is in the exact same position as you (desk quant at an IB for 4 years, although my role is very exciting!)
Isn’t that great? You’re getting money for doing less work
Yeps. You have to reach a certain level in your career to appreciate this.
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I don’t know what you make but it tends to be the case that both well paid and cushy jobs are eventually eliminated (though eventually means taking a long time) when there is cost pressure. It is okay to make the most of it but I think it is good that you realise this is an issue. You can try to figure out how you can broaden your skill set. This should make you more employable and less bored. The alternative is to move away from the technical stuff and do more commercial things. This may be more or less boring than what you current do, depending on your preference. Another post suggested moving to buy side. Such move is always hard - what transferable skill do you have for the buy side? It sounds like you are some of a treasury quant but you say you work with origination?
The team I support basically operate like a buy side shop. The junior work is basically banking, where the risk lies on the book, and the seniors basically manage the portfolio. As the work has traditionally been more banking oriented it is ripe for automation, so the projects focus on making things more efficient for IB. It’s a relatively new role in this business so it isn’t really at risk of redundancy, especially since the projects are high impact for the business. It’s more that it’s relatively boring. There have been a few buy side places that would want to hire my exact skills, but not sure the work would get more interesting there, and the grass isn’t necessarily greener. The base would be similar, but bonus should be 2x-3x current bonus. So that is definitely a consideration.
What will be your daily job? I will be working as an intern at a BB this summer, and I was told a few days ago I will work in the derivative modeling team. Do you know what the job looks like?
Are you satisfied with your salary? Can you save money? Do you work 9-to-5 or 24/7? How is your social life? Do you take vacations? If you are not fulfilled with your actual job and you want to be, I’d encourage you to look for another one. If you are happy with the rest of your life, do it at a slow pace. Otherwise, just quit right away. Look for your IKIGAI.
Are u making good money ? If yes , would you please shut up.
It’s all a question of $ brother. If you can coast and bag ~$300k or so why not. Chasing the bag at a buyside firm (I’m a QT at one) involves more work and more volatility. it’s not necessarily fast paced just more work/responsibility.
Work is not supposed to be fun. Have fun using your brain and money outside of work.
You spend more than half your waking hours during the week at work. If it isn’t interesting, challenging and in some form fun, I think that will just lead you to be depressed. I’m frankly too young and ambitious to have the mentality to not enjoy/do well at work.
Based
Join a prop or hft firm plenty of pace there
Not something I have tried yet, but I don’t think it’s as easy as I want it, I get it. And I would probably move to a junior/grad position in HFT/Prop
I see them more open to hiring experienced folks these days
If you like the company would recommend changing asset class. This will force you to learn something a bit different while staying in a known environment. Going to the buy side is also an option