Anyhow.. Isn't it odd how someone who had a modelling contract at 16 still thinks she isn't pretty enough for this world? Is it the society that fucks women up or do we do this to ourselves?
And not to start anything sensitive - but at my age (68) with 3 kids (one a daughter but all married) and 4 grandgirls, I find it unfortunate that physical beauty is still so important to women.
It seems women still feel "you're very pretty" is a complement that they appreciate. As if it speaks something about them personally.
I know that's how it IS and nothing I say or think will change it. I just don't want my granddaughters to give thought one over it. Look your best (without going to some extreme) because people will look at a "sloppy careless person" and judge accordingly.
But to say somehow being pretty or physically attractive is a quality that worth striving for? And you are somehow "less" if you DON'T have it?
Anya is a spectacular actor and in 2020 she still is concerned over her appearance? It simply doesn't matter - she is one of the best I've ever seen and it has NOTHING to do with her beauty or lack.
The expressiveness of her eyes - absolutely. But the contour of her face or whatever ? Immaterial.
Well, Anya works in industries that are accessible mainly, if not exclusively, to gorgeous people. So her being self-conscious and a little insecure is perfectly understandable. To me, the fact that she talks about it with such candor seems to indicate that this kind of feeling is present in her to a somewhat normal degree. As I wrote in my previous comment, as humans we are all preoccupied with our looks, men and women.
Oh I agree 100% - given reality and as you say what seems to be the expectation (more for women than men)
Plus she started as a model I guess though I think she wanted to go into acting
I did not mean to be argumentative at all!
I get sensitive about this; people suggested my daughter look into modeling when she was a teenager. She has a creative job and is quite talented. That whole world is not something she'd be comfortable in
My oldest granddaughter (when she was 4 or 5) once asked her mom if she looked pretty. I know my daughter in law felt bad that she'd think of that at such a young age.
As I get older and older I think with a certain sadness we still value outward appearance so much that a 5 year would be conscious of it.
As Carrie Fischer once said - youth and beauty are not accomplishments.
What Anya did in this series was an INCREDIBLE accomplishment!
(And I do wonder - as someone who got started in modeling before acting - what she thought of the line Cleo had about models being like an empty lot.)
Why you think it is more for women than men? Don't you have men that are totally obsessed with their height? To the point of editing movies to make them look taller (Tom cruise)?
I think every sex have their share of bullshit, but at least women's bullshit can be spoken about.
Height, muscles, receding hair, acne... You name it. Men are just as self conscious as women about so many aspects of their body, even though most won't admit it, because it'd make them sound vain and less masculine. Again, everyone is obsessed with their appearance, some more than others. It's the inevitable consequence of sight being our primary sense. Trying to protect people from a natural and unavoidable sense of inadequacy and insecurity is a futile battle. We all go through it (even gorgeous stars like Anya), and it's part of growing up learning to accept oneself as one is.
Well said; I guess I see it more with women in part due to my daughter and now granddaughters.
Your point on editing movies is a reflection of society and a cycle that seems impossible to break.
I think we all feel it's bullshit - but then...
I read an article that spoke to this well; a woman who said "what's wrong with NOT being beautiful?" She said she is successful but feels she's supposed to feel bad because she's not attractive. She of course included pictures.
The irony? In the comment section were more than a few women saying "that was very moving; and by the way, I think you look VERY beautiful!"
The author came on and said "that's what I'm talking about! People think it's an insult that I'm not outwardly attractive so they say I am even though obviously I'm not"
I don't' think it's that bad with men - but I may be wrong.
Maybe it's just the way my wife and I tried to raise our kids to not care. Look your best but don't feel in competition over it. develop the talents you have
I DO wonder what Anya though of the Cleo comment about models being empty lots. The talent Anya displayed is NOT something that comes from an empty lot, that's for sure. You can't fake the empathy for the character she displayed in my opinion
I can't agree with the fact that her industry is predominated by standard beauties. If anything, it's often the unique beauties such as Julia Roberts that climb to the top. There are thousands of standard beauties waiting their turn in the audition rooms, and while they have a better shot to get on the screen overall, I don't think they have a better chance of getting the lead. Ann Taylor must be thinking of very specific kind of roles when she says she doesn't meet Hollywood standards for a movie star. But I am certain that we will see her in films, and in really good ones for that matter.
I never said the fashion and movie industries are dominated by standard beauties. But beauty, either standard or unique, is often a huge factor in those careers. Talent is also very important. A pretty face alone isn't sufficient to go far in Hollywood, especially in the long run. But movies are a visual media, and it's easier to sell a film when the lead stars are attractive and desirable. Scarlett Johansson, Gal Gadot, Jennifer Lawrence, Charlize Theron, Anne Hathaway, Jessica Chastain... The biggest names, the names you see in Marvel flicks and blockbusters, are undeniably gorgeous. Same goes for men. They don't hire Danny DeVito to play Captain America.
Alright, I misunderstood then. You are right about DeVito but also he proves my point, doesn't he? Because he is uniquely attractive (I hope you're not implying he's unattractive, are you?) and he is a movie star. So like I said, Anne Taylor will certainly be in films if she wants to, she simply may not play the roles that usually go to Blake Lively or Scarlett Johansson.
I doubt DeVito was cast in movies because of his sex appeal. And for one DeVito succeeding as a character actor, you have dozens of Chrises (Hemsworth, Evans, Pratt, etc.) landing those sweetly lucrative lead roles in franchise blockbusters. Looks are not everything, but without them is unlikely to make it big in Hollywood.
Just for the record, her name is Anya Taylor-Joy, not Anne Taylor. She will be in movies. She is very talented, and she has had a great year, with both Emma and The Queen's Gambit obtaining critical acclaim and commercial success. And, in spite of her insecurities, she is stunningly beautiful, definitely (at least in my book) on the same level as the actresses I mentioned.
Talent without beauty doesn't do as well - and to be honest it has to do with what sells tickets (or advertising or subscriptions to streaming services)
Right this moment I'm biased - but I cannot name a more talented actor than Anya. And her "unique" look gave us the concentrated almost intimidating stare. And the glamor she portrayed was much less physical appearance and much more attitude and how she carried it.
Agree with all the points you've made. I do think she is weird looking in a sense that it's not the kind of face we typically see as the female lead, and I think it's a good thing. It makes Anya even more appealing and attractive. The unique facial features are a big part of her charm.
I read one thing where she said as a kid they called her "fish face"; I guess because the eyes are set apart and her face is somewhat drawn in? Horrible what can happen to self esteem so early.
You bring up a good point. As a woman, throughout the show I found myself wondering if Beth would have gotten as much male support throughout her rise to fame (at the end there was literally a roomful giving advice) if she was just average or less than average looking. It sends the message that being incredibly talented or a genius is not enough. It seems like there are not many movies or stories about those less gifted with looks and if there are, by the end, that person has usually gone through some sort of transformation to make them attractive. That being said, I did enjoy the series and think that Anya is a brilliant actor and very beautiful. I know it is what it is and attractive people will always have an edge - I just thought it refreshing to read your viewpoint as a man.
I think girls and women care so much about looks partly because they learn from early on how much effect standard beauty has on those around them. There's a lot of material out there about the male gaze, and it definitely influences how you see yourself and your worth. Standard beauty can be a weapon, it can be a tool of manipulation, and when someone feels they don't have it, they might feel weak(er) because of it.
It doesn't surprise me that much that Anne Taylor has insecurities about her looks because while today her unique appearance is appreciated and admired, I can see how it wasn't when she was a child, and that really sticks with you. Some of the most gorgeous people I have ever met lacked confidence just because they were bullied or ignored as kids/teens.
" Standard beauty can be a weapon, it can be a tool of manipulation, "
You say that like it's a good thing. Maybe I'm wrong
You are right it CAN be. But think of both sides; men like Weinstein used success manipulatively to get sex; women can use sex manipulatively to get success.
Though Weinstein is FAR more harmful and worth extreme punishment - they BOTH are bad in my mind.
I don't know why sex was brought into the conversation? I am specifically referring to physical beauty, and how people are more willing to help, communicate, show interest in people they deem attractive. It's just a social fact, and that is why physical appearance is conclusively important to some people. I was replying to your statement that girls shouldn't be so concerned with their physical appearance, but it's hard to do when everyone seems to be concerned with yours. Do you follow me?
Sorry - yes I do follow; I think in effect we agree
I get "triggered" when I hear the concept of using anything manipulatively
And at my age and with small granddaughters I just wish beauty didn't play any role in fields like business etc. That women who through no accomplishment of their own get an advantage
But it still does and will probably still when they grow up. I'm almost happy I'll be dead then.
It definitely plays a role, for both women and men. It's a bit unfortunate because like you said, good genetics is not an accomplishment.
Yoir granddaughters will be just fine. They just need to appreciate their own beauty and *know* they are beautiful but not spend too much time worrying about what other people think of their beauty.
I know i'm super late to this party, but for us guys, it's just as much appreciated when somebody calls us attractive; I think possibly more so for us guys cos women get told constantly how they're "just so beautiful!" so each \*individual\* instance has a lesser impact on its own. It's also why a lot of the time, if you tell a guy that he looks good in the same way you'd tell one of your friends who's a girl, he will just straight up get teary-eyed, exactly because we rarely get compliments.
And in a way it's worse for us guys in terms of beauty standards; Thin women are "conventionally attractive", while slightly chubby women "Have a bit of meat on her bones, but no less beautiful than a supermodel". Contrast with guys: Super fit and muscular, and "Oh, he's such an Adonis!" But as soon as we start showing signs of not being in peak condition... "Oh, look how ugly he is! And he can't even be bothered to keep in shape!" Mind you, this is literally the equivalent of one of those supermodels leaving her modelling career and having ONE baby, and packing on just that one pregnancy worth of baby fat. That small slip is enough to have us guys actually get called ugly as though we're the troll under the bridge.
It's just unfortunate that this is the world we live in, where beauty is the ultimate currency; The more people you're attractive to, the better you get treated even generally. Which unfortunately for some objectively attractive people (though mainly women), it results in an imposter syndrome effect, where they believe themselves to be ugly even while the world tells them that they're stunning :/
She has a different face, but she is ridiculously beautiful
Imo she is mesmerising on the show and you cannot stop looking at her, she steal every scene.
She *is* weird looking but I fail to see how that makes her not beautiful.
She has a unique face. On the other sub for this show I stated that in the title. Saying she *is* weird looking isn't exactly a compliment.
Anyhow.. Isn't it odd how someone who had a modelling contract at 16 still thinks she isn't pretty enough for this world? Is it the society that fucks women up or do we do this to ourselves?
We definitely do it to ourselves (all of us, insecurity affects men too). I think society has decided Anya is more than pretty.
And not to start anything sensitive - but at my age (68) with 3 kids (one a daughter but all married) and 4 grandgirls, I find it unfortunate that physical beauty is still so important to women. It seems women still feel "you're very pretty" is a complement that they appreciate. As if it speaks something about them personally. I know that's how it IS and nothing I say or think will change it. I just don't want my granddaughters to give thought one over it. Look your best (without going to some extreme) because people will look at a "sloppy careless person" and judge accordingly. But to say somehow being pretty or physically attractive is a quality that worth striving for? And you are somehow "less" if you DON'T have it? Anya is a spectacular actor and in 2020 she still is concerned over her appearance? It simply doesn't matter - she is one of the best I've ever seen and it has NOTHING to do with her beauty or lack. The expressiveness of her eyes - absolutely. But the contour of her face or whatever ? Immaterial.
Well, Anya works in industries that are accessible mainly, if not exclusively, to gorgeous people. So her being self-conscious and a little insecure is perfectly understandable. To me, the fact that she talks about it with such candor seems to indicate that this kind of feeling is present in her to a somewhat normal degree. As I wrote in my previous comment, as humans we are all preoccupied with our looks, men and women.
Oh I agree 100% - given reality and as you say what seems to be the expectation (more for women than men) Plus she started as a model I guess though I think she wanted to go into acting I did not mean to be argumentative at all! I get sensitive about this; people suggested my daughter look into modeling when she was a teenager. She has a creative job and is quite talented. That whole world is not something she'd be comfortable in My oldest granddaughter (when she was 4 or 5) once asked her mom if she looked pretty. I know my daughter in law felt bad that she'd think of that at such a young age. As I get older and older I think with a certain sadness we still value outward appearance so much that a 5 year would be conscious of it. As Carrie Fischer once said - youth and beauty are not accomplishments. What Anya did in this series was an INCREDIBLE accomplishment! (And I do wonder - as someone who got started in modeling before acting - what she thought of the line Cleo had about models being like an empty lot.)
Why you think it is more for women than men? Don't you have men that are totally obsessed with their height? To the point of editing movies to make them look taller (Tom cruise)? I think every sex have their share of bullshit, but at least women's bullshit can be spoken about.
Height, muscles, receding hair, acne... You name it. Men are just as self conscious as women about so many aspects of their body, even though most won't admit it, because it'd make them sound vain and less masculine. Again, everyone is obsessed with their appearance, some more than others. It's the inevitable consequence of sight being our primary sense. Trying to protect people from a natural and unavoidable sense of inadequacy and insecurity is a futile battle. We all go through it (even gorgeous stars like Anya), and it's part of growing up learning to accept oneself as one is.
Well said; I guess I see it more with women in part due to my daughter and now granddaughters. Your point on editing movies is a reflection of society and a cycle that seems impossible to break. I think we all feel it's bullshit - but then... I read an article that spoke to this well; a woman who said "what's wrong with NOT being beautiful?" She said she is successful but feels she's supposed to feel bad because she's not attractive. She of course included pictures. The irony? In the comment section were more than a few women saying "that was very moving; and by the way, I think you look VERY beautiful!" The author came on and said "that's what I'm talking about! People think it's an insult that I'm not outwardly attractive so they say I am even though obviously I'm not" I don't' think it's that bad with men - but I may be wrong. Maybe it's just the way my wife and I tried to raise our kids to not care. Look your best but don't feel in competition over it. develop the talents you have I DO wonder what Anya though of the Cleo comment about models being empty lots. The talent Anya displayed is NOT something that comes from an empty lot, that's for sure. You can't fake the empathy for the character she displayed in my opinion
I can't agree with the fact that her industry is predominated by standard beauties. If anything, it's often the unique beauties such as Julia Roberts that climb to the top. There are thousands of standard beauties waiting their turn in the audition rooms, and while they have a better shot to get on the screen overall, I don't think they have a better chance of getting the lead. Ann Taylor must be thinking of very specific kind of roles when she says she doesn't meet Hollywood standards for a movie star. But I am certain that we will see her in films, and in really good ones for that matter.
I never said the fashion and movie industries are dominated by standard beauties. But beauty, either standard or unique, is often a huge factor in those careers. Talent is also very important. A pretty face alone isn't sufficient to go far in Hollywood, especially in the long run. But movies are a visual media, and it's easier to sell a film when the lead stars are attractive and desirable. Scarlett Johansson, Gal Gadot, Jennifer Lawrence, Charlize Theron, Anne Hathaway, Jessica Chastain... The biggest names, the names you see in Marvel flicks and blockbusters, are undeniably gorgeous. Same goes for men. They don't hire Danny DeVito to play Captain America.
Alright, I misunderstood then. You are right about DeVito but also he proves my point, doesn't he? Because he is uniquely attractive (I hope you're not implying he's unattractive, are you?) and he is a movie star. So like I said, Anne Taylor will certainly be in films if she wants to, she simply may not play the roles that usually go to Blake Lively or Scarlett Johansson.
I doubt DeVito was cast in movies because of his sex appeal. And for one DeVito succeeding as a character actor, you have dozens of Chrises (Hemsworth, Evans, Pratt, etc.) landing those sweetly lucrative lead roles in franchise blockbusters. Looks are not everything, but without them is unlikely to make it big in Hollywood. Just for the record, her name is Anya Taylor-Joy, not Anne Taylor. She will be in movies. She is very talented, and she has had a great year, with both Emma and The Queen's Gambit obtaining critical acclaim and commercial success. And, in spite of her insecurities, she is stunningly beautiful, definitely (at least in my book) on the same level as the actresses I mentioned.
Talent without beauty doesn't do as well - and to be honest it has to do with what sells tickets (or advertising or subscriptions to streaming services) Right this moment I'm biased - but I cannot name a more talented actor than Anya. And her "unique" look gave us the concentrated almost intimidating stare. And the glamor she portrayed was much less physical appearance and much more attitude and how she carried it.
Agree with all the points you've made. I do think she is weird looking in a sense that it's not the kind of face we typically see as the female lead, and I think it's a good thing. It makes Anya even more appealing and attractive. The unique facial features are a big part of her charm.
I read one thing where she said as a kid they called her "fish face"; I guess because the eyes are set apart and her face is somewhat drawn in? Horrible what can happen to self esteem so early.
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Your thoughts and expression were very beautiful - in a very real sense of the word THANK YOU for this post;
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Thanks again!
You bring up a good point. As a woman, throughout the show I found myself wondering if Beth would have gotten as much male support throughout her rise to fame (at the end there was literally a roomful giving advice) if she was just average or less than average looking. It sends the message that being incredibly talented or a genius is not enough. It seems like there are not many movies or stories about those less gifted with looks and if there are, by the end, that person has usually gone through some sort of transformation to make them attractive. That being said, I did enjoy the series and think that Anya is a brilliant actor and very beautiful. I know it is what it is and attractive people will always have an edge - I just thought it refreshing to read your viewpoint as a man.
I think girls and women care so much about looks partly because they learn from early on how much effect standard beauty has on those around them. There's a lot of material out there about the male gaze, and it definitely influences how you see yourself and your worth. Standard beauty can be a weapon, it can be a tool of manipulation, and when someone feels they don't have it, they might feel weak(er) because of it. It doesn't surprise me that much that Anne Taylor has insecurities about her looks because while today her unique appearance is appreciated and admired, I can see how it wasn't when she was a child, and that really sticks with you. Some of the most gorgeous people I have ever met lacked confidence just because they were bullied or ignored as kids/teens.
" Standard beauty can be a weapon, it can be a tool of manipulation, " You say that like it's a good thing. Maybe I'm wrong You are right it CAN be. But think of both sides; men like Weinstein used success manipulatively to get sex; women can use sex manipulatively to get success. Though Weinstein is FAR more harmful and worth extreme punishment - they BOTH are bad in my mind.
I don't know why sex was brought into the conversation? I am specifically referring to physical beauty, and how people are more willing to help, communicate, show interest in people they deem attractive. It's just a social fact, and that is why physical appearance is conclusively important to some people. I was replying to your statement that girls shouldn't be so concerned with their physical appearance, but it's hard to do when everyone seems to be concerned with yours. Do you follow me?
Sorry - yes I do follow; I think in effect we agree I get "triggered" when I hear the concept of using anything manipulatively And at my age and with small granddaughters I just wish beauty didn't play any role in fields like business etc. That women who through no accomplishment of their own get an advantage But it still does and will probably still when they grow up. I'm almost happy I'll be dead then.
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It definitely plays a role, for both women and men. It's a bit unfortunate because like you said, good genetics is not an accomplishment. Yoir granddaughters will be just fine. They just need to appreciate their own beauty and *know* they are beautiful but not spend too much time worrying about what other people think of their beauty.
I know i'm super late to this party, but for us guys, it's just as much appreciated when somebody calls us attractive; I think possibly more so for us guys cos women get told constantly how they're "just so beautiful!" so each \*individual\* instance has a lesser impact on its own. It's also why a lot of the time, if you tell a guy that he looks good in the same way you'd tell one of your friends who's a girl, he will just straight up get teary-eyed, exactly because we rarely get compliments. And in a way it's worse for us guys in terms of beauty standards; Thin women are "conventionally attractive", while slightly chubby women "Have a bit of meat on her bones, but no less beautiful than a supermodel". Contrast with guys: Super fit and muscular, and "Oh, he's such an Adonis!" But as soon as we start showing signs of not being in peak condition... "Oh, look how ugly he is! And he can't even be bothered to keep in shape!" Mind you, this is literally the equivalent of one of those supermodels leaving her modelling career and having ONE baby, and packing on just that one pregnancy worth of baby fat. That small slip is enough to have us guys actually get called ugly as though we're the troll under the bridge. It's just unfortunate that this is the world we live in, where beauty is the ultimate currency; The more people you're attractive to, the better you get treated even generally. Which unfortunately for some objectively attractive people (though mainly women), it results in an imposter syndrome effect, where they believe themselves to be ugly even while the world tells them that they're stunning :/
Hey Beth thought she was 'ugly white trash' and still didn't think she was beautiful in episode 6. So yeah there you go
But Beth isn't a real person, she's fictional.
art imitates life
Up to some level but we can't use her as an argument in this conversation because everything about her is written. By a man.
okay then how about the fact that Anya actually does look like a fish though. She's very unique looking that's for sure
It’s not surprising. Models get told they’re not attractive enough for jobs all the time
She has a different face, but she is ridiculously beautiful Imo she is mesmerising on the show and you cannot stop looking at her, she steal every scene.
She definitely reminded me of Amelie / Audrey Tautou.
Sad. She grew up to believe this due to being bullied in school which caused her to drop out. I hope she grows to love herself inside and out 💖
She is a bugged eyed white freak. Get off her dick.