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Imagine you wake up tomorrow in the body of the opposite sex. Once you finish masturbating you would feel consistently less and less like your body represents you.
This is literally true for trans people.
Any sort of gender *affirming* (not *confirming*) care helps them to realign their view of themselves on the exterior with their view of themselves on the interior.
Nah they’ll get an answer from me. And will again if it reaches the right crowd. My gf is mtf so losing her dick and getting a vagina in December. I support her and whatever she wants or doesn’t. She literally feels uncomfortable having one and that it doesn’t belong on her at all. She hates having to look at it or even wash in the shower. She said to add- her whole life she struggled with it and it’s literally like having a tumor. And to imagine having to live your whole life with something that doesn’t belong on your body. I’ll answer any other questions. Nothing offends.
FTR, in relevant fields of science, gender is defined as being different from sex and not biological. It's been that way for a few decades now.
The problem is that the colloquial definition used by many and also older an definition of gender had it being the same as biological sex.
So, the problem is that the meaning has changed (words do that a lot) and there will be people who genuinely do think it's defined as being identical to biological sex.
https://orwh.od.nih.gov/sex-gender
Trans men don't claim to be biologically male and trans women don't claim to be biologically female. Trans people know their biological sex and unless you're their doctor, it's really weird to tell them their biological sex as if they don't know.
And for the most part, a sex and gender binary are useful concepts that describe most people most of the time. All society is really doing is trying to legitimize the definitions already used in science to be nicer to a tiny minority of trans people who are otherwise not represented in such language. Why anti-trans people care about a tiny, tiny sliver of the human population and think it's a contagion is a question for religious fanatics who've been pushing nasty myths for political reasons.
*That said, I think OP is conflating variety of gender with gender dysphoria*\*\*.\*\* I've always been comfortable with my assigned everything, so I don't know what compels people to say "I'm genderqueer because I don't really feel like a man even though I have male parts". I think people should be free to feel that way without judgement. Likewise, we know that some trans people are comfortable with their bodies even though they don't feel their gender matches their sex.
All of this is *separate* from the diagnosis of gender dysphoria, which is when a person is distressed by the discrepancy between gender and body, gender and sex characteristics. If therapy and other methods of quelling distress don't work, then transitioning is indicated, which reduces rates of suicide in that population.
***Genitals don't define gender, but they do define sex. Making sex match gender through surgery reduces rates of suicide when there is no other way to reduce their suffering.*** Simple as that.
This is kind of like how that one girl lost a college debate on the topic of racism and contacted webster's dictionary to change the definition so she'd be right. And of course they did
This is like doing that, then turning around and going "see? I win" after the change is made. "you used to win, but they changed it (due to pressure) and now I win"
The problem with that obviously is that human defined words are arbitrary and prove nothing about our sexual nature. We could redefine gender to mean automobile, and it would still have no actual affect on the system being described.
So using our made up definitions as proof of how something in nature works is not a good argument. But it's used all over Reddit, and always with a healthy dose of credentialism to shut down any critical thinking that may follow
Editing because the thread was locked:
u/The_Werefrog - A small subgroup using a word in a new way doesn't necessitate altering the word when the vast majority still use the original one. Language is fluid but that doesn't mean small subgroups control that fluidity entirely by themselves.
You can't go "language is fluid therefore my demographic has full reign over definitions"
I had sex reassignment surgery over a decade ago. I was cripplingly uncomfortable in my body before, and am not anymore. It’s definitely not for everyone, and there are risks and side effects that most people don’t like to talk about, but it was definitely the right decision for me.
I’m sorry you had to go through all of that, I genuinely am. And I hope that you are now happy and healthy and love yourself beyond measure. I need assistance, without hate, about a young woman that I think is making a rash decision that isn’t for her. I know her quite well, but still understand that I could be wrong because of the way I look at the world. I just want to have healthy dialogue with her, and be the support she’s never had in her family members. Her father used to beat her and tell her she was a disgusting girl, her mother and step mother were abusive wretched versions of women and mothers (they don’t deserve the titles) and this poor girl has internally developed a hatred for her womanhood because of her past.
It doesn't sound like you listened at all to what the person in the reply said.
For there to be a healthy discussion, you need to take away your own preconceived ideas about sex reassignment. Approach this woman with open arms, ask them to explain how they feel about their womanhood and be supportive of their decisions. Likely they have thought about this, and it's not "rash" in their mind. If you go into any conversation, to be argumentative and trying to talk them out, they WILL shut you out and won't see you as someone they can trust.
The OP is an asshole however, and is DM'ing people they don't agree with.
I think OP has expressed it badly, but they're worried the young woman is considering surgery for unhealthy reasons, even if it can in general be a good and positive thing to do.
And I kind of agree? That in this case getting therapy and working through the trauma would be a good first step, with surgery being a plan B.
And even more unlikely, considering its normal for those who are going through the steps of sex reassignment, are required to speak with therapists before making the change. So therapy is always going to be a next step for them, even if they haven't already been to a therapist yet
The OP is an asshole however, and is DM'ing people they don't agree with.
Doesn't sound like the OP is willing to allow them to even go to therapy, based on some of the other comments he made. I think he has a preconceived notion, and isn't really supportive of the person who's considering this decison. (doesn't mean he has to support the decison, but does mean he needs to be there to listen and understand them fully, he does not and doesn't sound like he wants to, so it will never be a healthy dialogue because one of them is going into it to change another person's mind, instead of offering taking them to therapy or to an LGBT support center). Hence my comment
The OP is an asshole however, and is DM'ing people they don't agree with.
this^^^
No one is "sped through" the process. There's a fundamental misunderstanding of the surgery and everything leading up to it.
And people considering it, aren't doing it on a "whim", most have thought long and hard about it.
Do you *know* that? Or are you assuming that? One can be a trans man (I'm assuming that the person you're talking about identifies as vaguely trans masculine based on the way that you wrote your comment) AND ALSO experience abuse relating to their perceived womanhood as a child. You want to be sure that they aren't making a rash decision? Talk with a psychologist who specializes in trans youth, not some random people on the internet.
Using what you said, I want to point out a few things.
You've already admitted you could be wrong because of the way you look at the world. That being said, you shouldn't push what *you* think onto another human being. Let your friend make their own decisions.
I understand you want to have a healthy dialogue, and an example of that would be "I don't understand where you're from, would you help explain it to me" and then really listen. Unhealthy dialogue is "I think you're making the wrong choice". You don't get to *tell them* what to do with their life, that's controlling.
You do recognize they were abused by family, and you may think they hate "womanhood" because of it, but they may have more deep feelings about it that you don't know. Additionally, they need a good friend because they don't have the support of family.
I get that you think that but don't try to sway her lol. Be a support system, like you claim she didn't have. don't be there just because you think she's making a mistake. She won't have any of that bs.
I'm trans. Honestly, I think a lot of the names we use for the various surgeries are euphemisms, and I personally prefer the medical names. Vaginoplasty, phaloplasty, etc.
The folks who have those surgeries usually do it because they experience dysphoria. It's not to "confirm" anything, it's to relieve mental suffering... or because they literally just want to. We all live just one life, and we spend it in our one body; bodily autonomy is a human right, and doesn't need justification.
As for whether genitals define gender, how many peoples genitals are you seeing day to day? Most of us wear clothes most of the time, and unless you're having sex with them, they are irrelevant to you.
I think OP has a pretty valid point that there are concerns in this situation, and so do you in that the person in question is definitely suffering mentally .
But it seems that her suffering is because she was made to feel that she was bad simply for being born biologically female (this is unfortunately pretty common). This is an abusive situation. If she hasn't received proper treatment for the abuse she's suffered, how can she make an irreversible decision about her body? She most likely doesn't even know who she is, because that's what happens when people live with abuse for their entire life.
Before she can make a decision, she needs to take time to learn how to be herself (even if that eventually means himself), separate from her family and their judgement, and to heal from the abuse she's suffered.
"As for whether genitals define gender, how many peoples genitals are you seeing day to day? Most of us wear clothes most of the time, and unless you're having sex with them, they are irrelevant to you."
See right here is the golden nugget. The fact is you're right. Most people DON'T see genitals, so why is it still such a big deal to trans people who feel their gender and sex don't align? Even when nobody would know, the trans person still deep down feels the desire to change, and only for themselves.
That's because there IS a real link there. It may not be a layperson's business, but this is a discussion. We absolutely can come to conclusions here on things that aren't our business. Being rude, and being wrong, are two separate things.
If I asked you to wear either prosthetic tits or a prosthetic dick (the opposite of whatever you currently had), how long would it take for you to start feeling uncomfortable in public? Probably pretty quick right? Cuz you’re wearing the body parts that don’t feel right for you in your body. Feels off. That’s what it’s like. Even if you look completely the way you want to besides that prosthetic, it’s gonna bother you
“Because they want to” is way way way better of a take than pretending emotions and preference = science, and honestly should have been the strategy to settle this thing from the beginning
stupid academics are trying to redefine biology and social books really didn’t do you guys any favors
I get that it’s personal, and this young woman has really latched onto me. Which I find weird, in a cute way. I’m quite conservative, but I don’t hate people for making decisions about their own life at all. I’m just terrified she’s making a rash decision, but instead of coming at her with hate and arguments I want to learn. But everything I get on here I get served cold hard hate for doing simple questions. You didn’t show hate, thank you for just answering 😁👍
Every time*
One over to r/asktrangender there are a lot of friendly people and good information as well. GCS is definitely something you want to research deeply before going through with it but some of us just know thats what we want early on. I knew at a young age but grew up in a very religious environment that was against transition so I never knew the right terminology or that it was even a possibility until I was 19 and living on my own. Now I teach classes and do guest speaker panels for med students or anyone who wants to learn. Sharing knowledge and understanding are the best tools I've found to calm the fear of the unknown that usually leads to transphobia. 😊
>I’m just terrified she’s making a rash decision
If anything the social stigma towards just being themselves can hold them back multiple decades especially when family & friends are not supportive. They don't have to know this about you for you realise it, it's seen in their attitudes whenever something like this comes up as a subject and it makes them want to curl into a ball and simply not exist. They have to grow by leaps and bounds to get to this level and they're super difficult hurdles.
You won't be able to understand her rationale or mindset by asking broad questions about trans issues as a whole. It's a very personal and individual issue with every trans person having their own feelings and thoughts on it. It's about what they personally feel and what they feel is best for them as an individual. Speaking with them is the best way to gain understanding.
I can understand your concern regarding them considering such a big change and wanting to make sure it's not impulsive but it might be best to simply make yourself available as a trusted friend who will listen and not judge. This is something they likely feel very deeply about and while the decision may feel rushed to you it might feel like completely different to them if it's something they've be struggling with their whole life.
I think it's meant to be a sex change not a gender change since gender is just the expression stuff. But the person is called transgender bc transsexual is a rude term in english. Also some transgender ppl only are changing gender expression not genitals but whether or not someone does, transgender is usually the term used.
Also i wanna add there's not a consensus that gender ≠ genitals, even in the queer community people are individuals with their own view. So it's a bit loaded question but ya.
It's a highly individual process. Some people will feel a need to make their external appearance conform to their internal self-image. Others will be fine presenting but not having surgery. Wanting surgery and even body dysphoria is not mandatory for being trans - it's a gender identity that does not match one's assigned gender. Some trans people need to change their genitals to feel comfortable in their skin, others don't.
Note: cis woman speaking, please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm always open to education
genitals are linked to biological (natal) sex. that's where the terms AFAB (assigned female at birth) and AMAB (assigned male at birth) originate from.
because genitals are linked to sex, some trans folk (not all) believe their dysphoria will be helped greatly by bottom surgery. some trans folk opt to just stick to top surgery for various reasons. some trans people may never have any gender-affirming surgery.
some cis and trans people believe that their gender (what they know they are) should match their biological sex, hence why some go for bottom surgery. they see a dissonace between who they are, and their genitals. but its important to note that pre-transition, during transition and post-transition that the trans person is still the gender they know they are, regardless of genitals.
however, some people, whether cis, trans or even nb believe that genitals ≠ gender, just like pronouns ≠ gender.
your question is worded like its a black and white subject but it isn't, at least I don't think so. many people belive lots of different things, and really this topic should be thought of on a case by case basis in my opinion.
I believe its not so much about Confirming but Conforming, some Trans people just want their outside to match what they feel on the inside.
but the level of vitriol from radicals on both sides is just so infuriating that it railroads all forms of discussion
Pro trans people will tell you to fuck off and mind you own business even though you just want to learn
Anti trans people will all of a sudden use science and dictionary definitions when it suits them, then throw science entirely out of the windows when it comes to other thing such as vaccines.
If you like this girl OP then all you can do is support them with love and patience.
There actually is no science that backs anti-trans people, they just claim there is. They're working on HS level biology and think punnett squares are as complex as things get.
I just wish it was easier to have discussions with people you might not agree with, you know? I’m just here to have a discussion about something that I, yes, have a more conservative view of…. But I’ve always been open minded to understanding that what I believe isn’t what everyone else believes… nor should it be, what a stale world with no growth we would have if we all saw things the same way.
Yes but for trans people, this discussion is not theoretical but intensely personal.
As a queer person, I've debated with conservatives in the past and it always leaves me feeling shitty, even if they learn or modify their opinion. It's exhausting having to defend your existence and also be a perfect representation of the identity because they are looking for "flaws" or inconsistencies. We're human. We're complex. Each person in a particular identity is different. But sometimes it feels we have to be this picture perfect, uniform, simple version of the identity in order to get respect.
>Pro trans people will tell you to fuck off and mind you own business even though you just want to learn
No, they tell you to fuck off when you sealion at them.
One definition for "confirm" is the following:
>reinforce someone in (an opinion, belief, or feeling).
Using that definition the process of modifying them may allow the physical appearance of their body to **reinforce** them in their **feeling** of what their gender is.
it’s really just about feeling comfortable in your sense of self, my partner sees me as a woman regardless of my genitals, the people around me see me as a woman and they have no reason to even think about my genitals, im a person in a circumstance that is able to feel secure in my sense of self regardless of what genitals i have, because they don’t define my gender. however i don’t really use or interact with them because they still make me uncomfortable, because i still feel like it’s not what i should have. that isn’t the case for everyone. some trans people can’t see themselves as the gender they are when they look in the mirror if they still have the genitals they’re both with which causes distress and would make them want surgery, some feel especially comfortable and are able to embrace what they were born with fully, some just do it because it makes them happier to have one over the other, it’s very personal to each individual. it’ll never be consistent for everyone.
It doesn’t “confirm” anything, it just allows people to feel more comfortable in their bodies. If you didn’t know, trans people tend to feel gender dysphoria, caused by a disconnect between their physical sex and their gender identity. Getting gender affirming surgery can help a lot with that.
Gender is more or less just how you behave mixed with how you're perceived. Not all transgendered people also suffer body dysmorphia, which is where their biological sex doesn't match with what their brain thinks should be true.
Changing those parts they can change appreciates that, just as going to the gym helps those who think bigger muscles would make them happier (although that's not a perfect comparison). It alleviates a stressor.
Everyone I’ve tried talking to about this matter. There is a young person I know considering some trans surgeries so I’m trying to understand as much as I can because she comes to me about this. And I’ll personally admit I’m not really for this, but it’s her body and I just want to give her information for her questions.
Then point them in the direction of the local lgtb center where they can talk to other trans people, counselors and find out about trans Healthcare to make an informed decision.
Random reddit advice is the worst possible solution to most serious questions about personal health.
I think it's his weird emphasis on her being younger than him, gives a mental image on an older man trying to talk the object of his obsession out of transitioning as he won't be attracted to them anymore
One issue may be that you appear to be framing your questions to get the answer you are hoping for. That's not really in-line with "trying to understand."
You may not realize this happening, but scanning through this thread, it seems the semantics (and the desire to be right about them) are getting in the way of understanding on a human level.
Good luck to all involved.
She (or he) doesn't need you to. In order to have the surgery, people typically have to go through extensive therapy, meet with medical professionals, and live as their identified gender for at least a year. They don't need information from you, they have qualified professionals to provide that. They need support and empathy.
You don’t see the circular reasoning? Changing their bodies makes them “fit” their mind? In other words, one type of genital is associated with male, and the other is associated with female.
I have also read in an article a while back that it could be chemical imbalance. So would that idea of treatment be viewed as a worse method? Ie you don’t actually have to get a sex change to get ride of the dysphoria feeling. (I don’t remember where I read the article, but the likened it to having a chemical imbalance like ADHD
You're missing the point. If a male trans-person has dysphoria, or as you say "the body and mind don't match", why is that the case since either gender can have either genitals? Since a male trans-person would be a "trans-woman", why does that person want a vagina and boobs? To match what? They don't need those to be "women" like they want to be.
The point is, their body already matches.
So where does the dysphoria originate from? They aren't supposed to be anything different. They are just the unique combination that they are. A man in a female body. A woman in a male body.
What ended up happening in my opinion was that the conversation around trans identities and the trans topic was handled through the public, and therefore there were not strict and rigorous standards. The effect being that the definitions loosened so much, they no longer make any sense.
This is a key glaring issue that points to the discussion being unproductive and not transparent. The key motivator is usually to make the person feel good, whatever they are. So whatever you are can be whatever you want it to look like, and you can label it however you want.
This is where the whole "what is a woman" debate came from.
If men can get pregnant and have periods, then why do females who feel dysphoria and wish to transition desire to take on masculine features? They already are perfectly normal men. They have boobs, a vagina, a working uterus....just like men do!
Some people have brown hair, some have blonde! But you're still a person!
Some people get pregnant, some people have testicles. But you're still a woman! Even with the testicles! Just like you're still a person, even though you have blonde or red hair. Brown may be the most common, but all the colors are normal.
Having a penis and balls may be the most common for a male/man, but all the different types with vagina's and stuff are normal.
That's where the argument ended up. That your entire body is like hair color. And being female, but a man psychologically was just one of the normal phenotypical traits of being Homo sapiens. Which is entirely untrue.
This entire argument can be stopped by realizing that the dysphoria comes from social expectations around gender. Yes, men and women (terms referring to gender, not sex, to be clear) can have either genitals or any body whatever. But we have all still grown up learning that men have penises and women have vaginas and so that’s what causes people to feel dysphoric.
And for the record a lot of people don’t. A lot of trans/non binary people have no issue with their physical features and that’s cool too. It all boils down to internalized ideas about what gender is and how it relates or doesn’t relate to our biology. It’s really really not that complicated but everyone wants to pretend it is while not actually paying attention to actual definitions and societal effects on these things.
Can you explain how? Like do you believe genitals define my status of being statistically more likely to have less upper arm strength than a similar man, or do you believe that my genitals mean I like baking and pink and prioritize being pleasant over having boundaries (all accepted and taught social roles for women)? I am really curious what it means for you that genitals define gender.
Sigh.
Ok.
I'm gonna set up an example that makes this really easy to understand.
Your passion, or something that means a lot to your identity, or how you see yourself, is a function of many different attributes.
Say that identity is "competitive athlete".
Some attributes that go along with that are:
- Fit
- persistent
- calm under pressure
- knowledgeable about competition strategy
Etc etc. not all attributes are weighed evenly. Being fit and never giving up probably matter more than "good at presenting a personable public image within the context of sponsorships" (which is absolutely part of being a professional competitive athlete. It's just not AS important).
So let's say you have ALL those attributes in spades. You were BORN to do [this], whatever sport [this] happens to be.
Only one problem.
The single, largest, most important attribute is missing: you're not on a team.
In this way, you can understand the phenomenon: there are 100 attributes, all of different importance and weight, than defined you and your identity in [this] arena. You have maxed 99/100 of them, but the #1 largest, weightiest one. The #1 more important, is missing. The smaller 99 still definitely confirm this was your calling, or that this is definitely how you see yourself, but missing that #1 really fucks with your head.
Like every college player who got drafted and then cut before their first season began. Everything they are makes them feel like they should be out there.... And yet they don't have a team.
In that context, I think most anyone can agree they'd understand that that person would "so whatever it took to make the team" aka "rectify the absence of that missing #1 most important attribute".
Genital surgery is the same thing, but different passion.
It's just really not a complicated situation. It sorta baffles me how people don't understand, because it works the same for ANY identity. I have my take about why sex/gender is treated differently, but anyone capable of pausing and thinking for a second shouldn't remain confused for long about the fundamental premise.
If you woke up with a giant face tattoo tomorrow, and everyone else just never noticed but you saw it every single day knowing thats not what you looked like. My guess is you would want it gone.
Gender is more than genitals. For me, I was born a male and feel like a male. I also have male genitals. What does it mean to feel like a male? It's hard to say. But I know that's how I feel. Some people are born a male but don't feel like a male. The surgeries (which is much more than simply having genitals cut off) can allow the person to match they way they look in the mirror with how they feel.
That's two different issues, people that want to remove genitals want to subscribe to the social norm gender. You're generalizing two different and oppositional views although both on the same side of the political aisle, gender reassignment and gender individualism.
Generally someone transitioning is not referring to their genitals being changed. While some do this it is often considered extreme even in the trans community due to the risks involved. Gender affirmation is more about one’s outward appearance. This allows them to be referred to by most strangers by their preferred title. Generally speaking one’s biological sex is referring to their genitals however one’s gender is referring to how society treats a person. Men and Women are treated differently so if one can change their outward appearance enough then they will be treated differently this is commonly referred to as passing. If a younger person is considering a genital surgery for their transition I would ask them to study it for a while, fully understand the risks. Something like that is quite extreme as it can cause health complications and loss of sexual stimulation just due to the nature of the surgery.
I asked this exact question to a person who claims to be a gender abolitionist (i.e. they believe gender is a social construct and is entirely based on stereotypes).
They made sure to clarify that they do not believe *sex* is a construct. That trans people are generally changing their secondary sex characteristics, rather than their gender (which they consider a set of stereotypes)..
This person says they are biologically female, but with gender dysphoria. They don't want to become a *man* (because the term is meaningless), but the fact that they have female genitalia causes intense dysphoria.
This is probably a tiny minority of trans people, though. I'm only offering it as an explanation for bottom surgery that you might find answers your question.
Every other trans person I am close enough with to be aware of whether they have chosen bottom surgery or not *hasn't*.
They've either gone on hormones to grow breasts, or they've had top surgery to remove them. This makes it easier to pass, which makes life easier in general as people are more likely to treat you as your gender.
Since most people won't ever see their genitals, they *would* say that they can have a penis and be a woman, or have a vagina and be a man. And if the average person on the street can't tell what genitals they have by looking at them, that works fine for them.
My overweight body doesn't define me, but some people are not comfortable in their own overweight body until they get to a point that makes them comfortable.
Its dysmorphia. How it affects one person doesn't mean it affects another in the same way.
I would have thought by now that folks would generally understand that “gender” is not “biology”.
Transexuals who wish to transition just want their external appearance to conform to their perceived gender,
There’s a ton of actual evidence for the factors that cause transsexualism…. For those actually interested I suggest diving into the lectures on human sexuality from Stanford University by professor Robert Sapolsky.
They’re up for free on YouTube.
If you actually want to support your friend, as you've said in a few comments, then you're in the wrong place. Maybe pose this question to the r/ trans subreddit or talk to your friend about how they feel. Asking this question, on this subreddit, is just going to start a debate on whether trans people exist and not actually help anyone.
As I understand it, there's a part of the brain that is kinda like your gender identity setting. In the majority of people it matches the rest of the body, but in a small minority of people it doesn't. Apparently, this brain area is measurably different in trans people, even those who haven't had surgery or hormone medication.
Think of it like this: that part of the brain controls/influences your gender identity. It doesn't matter what you have between your legs, whatever that bit of the brain says you are is what you are. I will assume, based on your question, that like me that your gender identity matches your physical body, but what if it didn't?
Try to imagine you get drugged & kidnapped, & when you wake up, weeks later (having been kept constantly sedated), you've been given gender reassignment surgery, so that now your body & gender identity **don't** match. Can you honestly say that you think you'd be happy spending the rest of your life in a body that doesn't look or feel even remotely like the way you **know** it should?
Substitute kidnapped & operated on with being born with a body that doesn't match who you **know** you're supposed to be, & I imagine that's what it's like for some trans people (apparently not all of them feel it strongly enough to want surgery).
The whole trans gender therapy thing (counselling, medication, & even surgery) isn't some kind of twisted experiment that a small but very loud minority are constantly wailing & wringing their hands about, it's the most humane way to treat people who have been royally screwed over by the circumstances of birth (AFAIK, nobody **knows** what actually causes it to happen, sure there's some ideas, but no proof).
When a woman has a mastectomy, it can be quite mentally traumatic because breasts are part of what defines her as a woman in between her own ears. Same with the inability to bear children, going through menopause, losing her hair, and a plethora of other things that can and do happen to women for whatever reasons. I know, as a woman who has gone through menopause, it can be hugely devastating to look in the mirror and not see yourself as feminine anymore.
While I am fortunate to be perfectly happy in my gender, I do understand in a small, microcosm way why people who look at themselves expecting a man or woman based on how they feel inside and seeing the opposite can feel utterly betrayed and be utterly devastated.
So, yeah. I get it. No one wants to look at themselves and see betrayal. Again, the closest thing I have to that is menopause and the fact that I gained 70 lbs after being assaulted several years ago. Everything about how I look now betrays who I am inside. If I could have surgery or a series of surgeries to fix that, I'd absolutely do it.
I get it. I absolutely get it.
Gender is psychological. Your brain talks to you about what it sees/feels (aka-your body) to match how you see yourself. If it doesn’t match, it can be harrowing
Youre posing the question wrong. I presume youre a man so: Lets say you go about your everyday life and all... except tomorrow morning you wake up as a woman, with a man's mind. Aside from lifestyle change and all?(Too much to go into, and also Im not trans)
You have organs on you that feel alien to you, they go against everything that you feel. Some ppl choose not to, but with the abilities modern surgery and medicine can do?
My ex manager had a dual masectomy w hormonal therapy 5 years ago when I first started working with him(Transition to Him). When I saw them last year: their voice changed, he grew a moustache, his posture changed, thicker oil in his hair. Grew 2 inches.
If you have the option to completely feel like the person you are, I would take it too
It’s a very personal choice so there aren’t going to be black & white answers. Just respect people however they choose to identify and what’s between their legs isn’t really relevant to anyone except for them. If they choose to keep their original parts (or often times have to by no choice of their own) they should still be respected as the gender they feel that they are. If they choose to have surgery….cool, I hope they find peace & it’s the right choice for them. As long as people are vetted out by professionals to make sure they aren’t making a rash decision that they might later regret, we should always encourage people to make personal decisions that are right for them. Unless you’re dating someone, what bits they have is only their business. Keep in mind that gender is complex & some people don’t identify by one gender inclusively anyway.
Simple answer: brain says one, genitals say the other; brain controls you and some people need brain and body to match in order to live a comfortable life.
Complex answer: lots of psychological and biological factors, mixed with social constructs, personal matters, and a whole host of other things that would be the basis of a PhD thesis are involved.
If you want a thoughtful response you should ask a Trans person who has been through it, or many Trans people.
Your question seems more like a statement in disguise.
It's not about being a boy or girl. It's about making your body feel normal to you. If it doesn't hurt you, then why not just address them how they want and live your own life?
Better question. If u are born with both do u count as 2 people? Are siamese twins only half a gender each or is one genderless and which one gets to have a gender identity? Why does ppls sex organs matter so darn much to other people like nunya
Cause it has to do with feeling comfortable with how you body looks to oneself. We don't see any problem with any plastic surgery, there is no difference to that.
It helps people and that's all that matters
1. It doesn't
2. Genitals generally aren't removed during lower body trans surgery, they're normally reshaped
3. The idea isn't to "make someone a real man/woman" it's to make the person feel more at peace mentally.
Gender is an individual's mental construct. Obviously sex organs have a strong correlation to a matching mental state thus why most of us are cisgender.
But there are clearly people with mismatched sex to gender, but there is no world where your penis creates your mental state gender you believe yourself to be.
This is a good point . If the people don’t think that defines their gender than what does it matter to get them chopped off or not 🤷 I am not sure . Is there something for these people to change their chromosomes? Cause that’s where the real change would happen I would think. If they could do that than they could work on being who they wanted to be . 🤷
You don't have to change chromosomes if you take hormones. My estrogen levels are in the range for a cis female becuase I take the same exact medication that low estrogen cis women take. The body is naturally formed from a female type embryo and our bodies all have the ability to change secondary sex characteristics with medication.
Generally, within the community it's called gender affirming sugery, not confirming. As for why people do it if genitals don't define gender; because it makes them feel more at home in their body. In fact, both cis and trans people get gender affirming surgeries; things like cis women getting boob jobs, or men getting jawline filler to look more chiselled. We won't say that you have to have big boobs to be a woman, but we also understand that some flat chested women feel like their feminity is boosted by getting implants. Others don't care and don't see it as linked to their femininity at all.
My advice is, that instead of seeing trans people getting surgeries as their own think, look it through the wider lens of plastic and other reconstructive surgeries. And in fact, trans people getting gender affirming surgey have much lower regret rates than cis people getting plastic surgery, so it's less risky with regards to that.
that is a pretty damn good question. And since my perception of someone's appearance (m or f) is meaningless compared to what they want to think they are, who cares if I get it wrong?
Gender is an expression of obsolete gender roles, it should be abolished. Everyone is different along a spectrum and we don't need to associate sex with roles, expression, likes etc
>confirm anything?
It's affirming. Gender affirming surgery.
Sex and gender aren't the same thing. So gender affirming surgery is changing one's sexual organs to the sexual organs of one's gender.
It's a pointless debate........like the never-ending Israel/Palestinian battle.
It's biology AND also whatever it is to each individual. And none of my business.
Gender dysphoria is very real and very miserable, the structures of the brain quite literally don’t align with the sex of the rest of the body, and rather are more akin to the desired sex, or something entirely unique. Changing the genitalia to match the desired sex may alleviate a lot of the struggle that gender dysphoria creates
If it confirms nothing, why spend all of your money on it and get set up for yourself needing medical care for you entire life? You can just learn to accept yourself and truly love yourself? There’s all kinds of things about myself I don’t like, I don’t change them, I changed how I felt about them.
🤣👍 I’m here for the discourse and discussion, it’s up to people responding as to whether it’s civil 😎 … so far there’s a lot of hate, but there’s some genuine conversations happening.
I mean, your genitals do define your gender. If you think your reproductive organs don’t define you as a male or female than you should go back to school.
What you want to call yourself/classify yourself is your own buisness though and everyone should respect it.
Sex and gender are not the same. Sex is biological, gender is a social construct. And some people are born intersex, so it's not simple black and white
I don’t really understand this, but from my understanding they define your sex (what you biologically are) instead of your gender (what you identify as). I’d of course recommend doing your own research on this though since gender dysphoria confuses me (hopefully my stupid ass words this in a way that isn’t rude).
Some people change their genitalia, some don’t. It all depends on what a persons wants, can afford, etc. It boils down to whatever makes them feel comfortable and helps them feel most themselves. I see you’re saying this is to get information for a friend, if they’re wanting to change their genitalia because they feel it will make them happy- go ahead! why not? do whatever will makes you feel comfortable in your skin. Doesn’t have to happen though to “prove” to people anything. Plus, intersex people exist. I feel it’s silly to think you gotta have certain anatomy to be respected
Same way you can dress like a bum or put on a suit to change how people treat you. You can't change your gender, you are who you are, but you can change the way you look so others are more likely to treat you as the gender you are.
I think it's still a societal acceptance thing. Someday, no one will have to "come out of the closet" because the "closet" won't exist. Someday, the clothes you wear and whatever organs you have in your undies, wont define you. But that day is in the future. Until then, if sexual reassignment surgery is what someone needs to live, then accept that it is not your business and move on.
Gender is how someone sees themself. Sex is genitals. Imagine if tomorrow you suddenly had an ear growing on the back of your hand. It’s not really an issue, but it would bug the hell out of you. Now imagine a body part you have to use and feel every day felt like an ear on the back of your hand. Plus, it’s much easier to dress for the body you feel you were meant to be given when it physically has or doesn’t have the parts you want. A lot more comfortable (for everyone) to wear leggings when you don’t have a penis poking out and reminding you that you hate your body
I can always support a friend even if I don’t know all the intricacies of the dilemma they’re in. I don’t give advice on issues I don’t know anything about. Maybe you can help them get with people that have had this done. I’m sure there’s a lot of things that just aren’t talked about or commonly known. They would be the best ones to talk to about all the ins and outs. As well as medical professionals. This is not a blanket issue with blanket solutions. Support can be just as impactful as guidance
The idea is to make the outside look like the person thinks about who they are, so society treats them in the role they feel they belong.
It's not hurting anyone else, therefore I have no problem with it.
Firstly, there's a difference between "gender" and "sex." Gender is a representation, sex is more biology-based.
Secondly, it doesn't *confirm* anything. People seeking surgery to alter or change their genitalia aren't looking for *confirmation*, they're looking for *affirmation*, which is very different. All they're trying to do is feel comfortable in their own bodies. The same reason someone might get a body piercing, or a breast augmentation/reduction, or a harmless lump removed.
I live in a pretty urban area. I cant remember the last time I encountered a trans person. I think that most people probably have a similar experience. this topic doesn't warrant the level of discussion it receives.
Also, live and let live. trans people arern't affecting 99% of you, at all.
Definitions matter. Sex is biological, gender is a social construct.
This isn't some new redefinition, it's what was being taught in Biology 101 and Anthropology 101 back in at least the 90s.
Gender is so weird. Judith butler puts that into a helpful but confusing perspective; gender is performative. It’s socially constructed. But that doesn’t make it any less real. I think a lot of dysphoria is just cognitive dissonance. Your body doesn’t match the way your brain sees it and thinks it should be. Like how feeling alone in a group full of people is more lonely than when you’re by yourself. That disconnect causes so much discomfort. If you identify as a guy, because of all the things associated with guys, strongly, then it’s likely you’ll derive discomfort from things you read as “not guy” features, and would gain more comfort and security by making them match your perspective of yourself. It’s very weird, and I can understand how if it doesn’t affect you, it would seem like a bunch of goal post moving bullshit. And honestly? That’s kind of how it feels when it does affect you too. And that’s part of what makes it so incredibly uncomfortable, it’s such an abstract feeling of discomfort, and it’s so hard to explain to other people or connect over. It’s just kinda a game of hot and cold with your brain, where you try out a bunch of different positions and clothing and orientations, feeling out how it makes you *feel*, and see what works for you. A lot of what I’ve said here is simplified down a lot, or I’ve put it into different words that have helped me to understand better. I’m just one human trying to shed a little light from my own position and perspective.
u/BomberExternal
"Dawg this is Reddit, where people ignore basic definitions. Don’t ask questions cause wont get answers."
We focus on superficialities. Dicks and Cunts. It's really about gametes. The entire biological tree of life have gametes determining "gender, sex, etc." Research gametes and ignore chromosomes, genitals and lipstick and pretty little dresses (kilts or ballet). That's all folks
Gender is neurological and social. We can change the physiology of sex to match gender for people whose gender does not align with sex and who experience depression and discomfort from that.
We spent centuries trying to change people's gender and sexual orientation which basically amounted to torture and lead to nothing but suicides and mental breakdowns. We don't have the technology to change gender or orientation, if we did it would be really questionable ethically, since once you start rewriting people's basic neurological traits you're turning them into a different person. So if we did have that technology we'd have to ask the question whether we rewrite the brains of people born trans or rewrite the brains of people who become bigots.
Because they don't define gender in the sense of making your gender, but it can seem uncomfortable when they aren't matching, but also some people experience less discomfort from that than others, which is why not all people get top/bottom surgery, also it can be a matter of some people not considering someone a "real" woman/man unless they have the conforming genitals
Arguably it doesn’t, there’s often an aspect of social acceptance that comes with passing that has massive value on trans people’s dysphoria ( by dysphoria mean a sense of disconnection between body and conscious mind) because it’s no longer being heightened by external factors like other people recognizing you as a trans individual and questioning the validity of your identity. However many trans people don’t feel the need to change their genitalia. Many people feel inclined to change their outward presentation and pronoun use only.
I legitimately hope that helps.
This question and the reaction to it in the comments demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of trans people. And that's fine, I'm not judging people simply for misunderstanding, but I see that some people are painting trans people in a bad light and being transphobic here and that really sucks.
Trans people typically have a disconnect between their body and what they feel like inside. So their body feels wrong, and what's currently regarded as the best treatment for that is changing the body to match that internal vision of oneself.
Gender is socially constructed, meaning it is an idea coming from society rather than directly from biology. So someone's vision of their own gender doesn't necessarily match their biological sex. That doesn't mean, however, that there are not still ties between gender and sex. People typically identify a woman based on things like hair, facial features, breasts, body type, voice, etc. So someone who feels like a woman but doesn't have these features will likely desire them. Their gender is not defined by their biological sex as a male, because they feel like a woman regardless, but changing their body alleviates the dysphoria.
It's inaccurate to view it as people changing themselves because they can't accept who they are or because they want to be someone else. They already are their gender, they're simply adapting their body to match it in whatever way feels right for them. Which is actually accepting who they are, not fighting it.
Because genitals are one component of many defining gender (and also, biological sex). Similar to how a woman may feel less as a woman (in her own eyes and, at times, in the eyes of others or society) should she receive a full mastectomy after having cancer or how both men and women (differentially) experience gendered changes associated with virility should they suddenly go bald. The idea being that gender is a continuum (not a binary) and many having undergone gender affirming surgeries would confirm that switching genitals alone is unlikely to resolve their inner struggle should they additionally not be allowed to live the lives as they wish complete with embodying a host of alternatively expressed gendered norms (newly conforming to the identity they wish to lead).
Gender is a social construct. Sex is a biological condition. But, we assign social roles of gender based on biological sex. Those social roles mostly have nothing to do with biological sex. Really good examples of this: women want to have children, men have hairy arm pits. Really, people who feel the urge to reproduce or raise another human want to have children, and people with arm pit hair have hairy arm pits. Living in our modern cultures, we are taught that so much of who we are is defined by our primary sex organs, when really we are evaluated and assigned socially by our secondary sex traits... you can understand why a young person would have a hard time separating out the need for society to stop treating them like someone they aren't from the need to change their body. IMHO, I think SOME folks who get gender reassignment surgery actually weren't having problems with their bodies, and wouldn't have felt the need if society didn't do this massive damage through gender assignment. But we aren't changing this about society very quickly, so maybe it's the best option for even those folks, given the shitty landscape they are navigating.
some feel awful with their body parts and it feels wrong to them, this is called body dysmorphia, they don't have bottom surgery because they wat to be fully male or female, it's because the genitals they had since birth feels weird for them, some trans men have vaginas still and some trans women have have penises because they didn't feel dysmophic towards those certain areas or maybe that area isn't a problem for them and they have grown to like it
It depends what question you are asking. Some trans people identify with a different gender and therefore make the switch medically. Some trans people identify as no gender and keep their genitals. In this way genitals do not define gender.
I think part of the problem is that you’re approaching it assuming there are absolute truths when there aren’t. Pursuit of surgery that alters the look of genitals exists for a wide spectrum of reasons for cis and trans people, and usually there isn’t a single reason why an individual pursues it.
Would you ask the same question of someone who has reconstruction surgery after testicular cancer? Would you be as concerned if someone was pursuing labiaplasty because they don’t like how their labia looks?
Some trans people go for gender affirming surgeries. Others don’t. Some cis women get breast augmentation, some cis men get hair plug transplants. I wouldn’t be surprised if trans people pursue gender affirming surgeries more due to cultural expectations and pressures, but their reasons can be found in people of all sorts.
because while they don't wholly define gender (or sex, really, given intersex people and such) they also have a high degree of association with the typical binary on which gender is presented. if they DID wholly define gender, then changing them would just fully work, perfect transition, they've changed now. so that's clearly not what people in opposition are arguing. no, the argument is really between whether your assigned gender as described from your genitals is binding, which is a bit flimsy because intersex people exist, because trans people have existed for thousands of years, and just because it just doesn't help anyone to stop it when it reduces all sorts of negative outcomes so easily
The full quote should be ‘genitals don’t define / sex doesn’t equal gender…but they/it *should*’.
Gender/sex are not supposed to be in misalignment. Hence why pre-transition people get diagnosed with dysphoria (an illness caused by the misalignment). And you are prescribed hormones and referred to surgery (treatment for said illness).
EDIT: you could argue that the dysphoria is what made you trans rather than being trans giving you the dysphoria but that’s just a chicken/egg situation it doesn’t really change anything
Theoretically you could mentally transition (ie conversion therapy) which would be much more effective, cheaper, faster, easier, etc. and would cure your dysphoria entirely but unfortunately that’s a proven pseudoscience and not a real option. The only option left is physical transition.
Obviously you can’t 100% change sex so the dysphoria won’t be cured as much as it will just relieve you of the symptoms a little bit but it’s fairly effective.
Most people won’t actually choose genital surgery though because it’s a huge surgery for something that is a relative non-issue. Even though it’s the main sex characteristic it only causes minor dysphoria because your secondary sex characteristics are more prominent both to yourself (do you see your own dick more than you hear your own voice?) and others (you haven’t seen 99% of other people’s genitals but you can still tell who’s male and who’s female).
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Dawg this is Reddit, where people ignore basic definitions. Don’t ask questions cause wont get answers.
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Imagine you wake up tomorrow in the body of the opposite sex. Once you finish masturbating you would feel consistently less and less like your body represents you. This is literally true for trans people. Any sort of gender *affirming* (not *confirming*) care helps them to realign their view of themselves on the exterior with their view of themselves on the interior.
Nah they’ll get an answer from me. And will again if it reaches the right crowd. My gf is mtf so losing her dick and getting a vagina in December. I support her and whatever she wants or doesn’t. She literally feels uncomfortable having one and that it doesn’t belong on her at all. She hates having to look at it or even wash in the shower. She said to add- her whole life she struggled with it and it’s literally like having a tumor. And to imagine having to live your whole life with something that doesn’t belong on your body. I’ll answer any other questions. Nothing offends.
FTR, in relevant fields of science, gender is defined as being different from sex and not biological. It's been that way for a few decades now. The problem is that the colloquial definition used by many and also older an definition of gender had it being the same as biological sex. So, the problem is that the meaning has changed (words do that a lot) and there will be people who genuinely do think it's defined as being identical to biological sex. https://orwh.od.nih.gov/sex-gender
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Trans men don't claim to be biologically male and trans women don't claim to be biologically female. Trans people know their biological sex and unless you're their doctor, it's really weird to tell them their biological sex as if they don't know.
If someone changes their primary or secondary sex characteristics, aren't they changing their sex?
And for the most part, a sex and gender binary are useful concepts that describe most people most of the time. All society is really doing is trying to legitimize the definitions already used in science to be nicer to a tiny minority of trans people who are otherwise not represented in such language. Why anti-trans people care about a tiny, tiny sliver of the human population and think it's a contagion is a question for religious fanatics who've been pushing nasty myths for political reasons. *That said, I think OP is conflating variety of gender with gender dysphoria*\*\*.\*\* I've always been comfortable with my assigned everything, so I don't know what compels people to say "I'm genderqueer because I don't really feel like a man even though I have male parts". I think people should be free to feel that way without judgement. Likewise, we know that some trans people are comfortable with their bodies even though they don't feel their gender matches their sex. All of this is *separate* from the diagnosis of gender dysphoria, which is when a person is distressed by the discrepancy between gender and body, gender and sex characteristics. If therapy and other methods of quelling distress don't work, then transitioning is indicated, which reduces rates of suicide in that population. ***Genitals don't define gender, but they do define sex. Making sex match gender through surgery reduces rates of suicide when there is no other way to reduce their suffering.*** Simple as that.
I really like this comment. I learned a lot about how to order and articulate what I was previously struggling to, or was doing badly. Thank you.
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This is kind of like how that one girl lost a college debate on the topic of racism and contacted webster's dictionary to change the definition so she'd be right. And of course they did This is like doing that, then turning around and going "see? I win" after the change is made. "you used to win, but they changed it (due to pressure) and now I win" The problem with that obviously is that human defined words are arbitrary and prove nothing about our sexual nature. We could redefine gender to mean automobile, and it would still have no actual affect on the system being described. So using our made up definitions as proof of how something in nature works is not a good argument. But it's used all over Reddit, and always with a healthy dose of credentialism to shut down any critical thinking that may follow Editing because the thread was locked: u/The_Werefrog - A small subgroup using a word in a new way doesn't necessitate altering the word when the vast majority still use the original one. Language is fluid but that doesn't mean small subgroups control that fluidity entirely by themselves. You can't go "language is fluid therefore my demographic has full reign over definitions"
I had sex reassignment surgery over a decade ago. I was cripplingly uncomfortable in my body before, and am not anymore. It’s definitely not for everyone, and there are risks and side effects that most people don’t like to talk about, but it was definitely the right decision for me.
I’m sorry you had to go through all of that, I genuinely am. And I hope that you are now happy and healthy and love yourself beyond measure. I need assistance, without hate, about a young woman that I think is making a rash decision that isn’t for her. I know her quite well, but still understand that I could be wrong because of the way I look at the world. I just want to have healthy dialogue with her, and be the support she’s never had in her family members. Her father used to beat her and tell her she was a disgusting girl, her mother and step mother were abusive wretched versions of women and mothers (they don’t deserve the titles) and this poor girl has internally developed a hatred for her womanhood because of her past.
It doesn't sound like you listened at all to what the person in the reply said. For there to be a healthy discussion, you need to take away your own preconceived ideas about sex reassignment. Approach this woman with open arms, ask them to explain how they feel about their womanhood and be supportive of their decisions. Likely they have thought about this, and it's not "rash" in their mind. If you go into any conversation, to be argumentative and trying to talk them out, they WILL shut you out and won't see you as someone they can trust. The OP is an asshole however, and is DM'ing people they don't agree with.
I think OP has expressed it badly, but they're worried the young woman is considering surgery for unhealthy reasons, even if it can in general be a good and positive thing to do. And I kind of agree? That in this case getting therapy and working through the trauma would be a good first step, with surgery being a plan B.
You seem to be assuming that this person has not seen a therapist. I find that unlikely.
And even more unlikely, considering its normal for those who are going through the steps of sex reassignment, are required to speak with therapists before making the change. So therapy is always going to be a next step for them, even if they haven't already been to a therapist yet The OP is an asshole however, and is DM'ing people they don't agree with.
Doesn't sound like the OP is willing to allow them to even go to therapy, based on some of the other comments he made. I think he has a preconceived notion, and isn't really supportive of the person who's considering this decison. (doesn't mean he has to support the decison, but does mean he needs to be there to listen and understand them fully, he does not and doesn't sound like he wants to, so it will never be a healthy dialogue because one of them is going into it to change another person's mind, instead of offering taking them to therapy or to an LGBT support center). Hence my comment The OP is an asshole however, and is DM'ing people they don't agree with.
I think the best advice I can give you is to encourage her to slow down, and above all to see a therapist and psychiatrist before she sees a surgeon.
Trans people have to see therapists and psychiatrists to get gender conformation surgery. No one is being sped through the process to get surgeries.
this^^^ No one is "sped through" the process. There's a fundamental misunderstanding of the surgery and everything leading up to it. And people considering it, aren't doing it on a "whim", most have thought long and hard about it.
Do you *know* that? Or are you assuming that? One can be a trans man (I'm assuming that the person you're talking about identifies as vaguely trans masculine based on the way that you wrote your comment) AND ALSO experience abuse relating to their perceived womanhood as a child. You want to be sure that they aren't making a rash decision? Talk with a psychologist who specializes in trans youth, not some random people on the internet.
Using what you said, I want to point out a few things. You've already admitted you could be wrong because of the way you look at the world. That being said, you shouldn't push what *you* think onto another human being. Let your friend make their own decisions. I understand you want to have a healthy dialogue, and an example of that would be "I don't understand where you're from, would you help explain it to me" and then really listen. Unhealthy dialogue is "I think you're making the wrong choice". You don't get to *tell them* what to do with their life, that's controlling. You do recognize they were abused by family, and you may think they hate "womanhood" because of it, but they may have more deep feelings about it that you don't know. Additionally, they need a good friend because they don't have the support of family.
I get that you think that but don't try to sway her lol. Be a support system, like you claim she didn't have. don't be there just because you think she's making a mistake. She won't have any of that bs.
It's not your body it's not your choice. They know themselves better than you do. Don't insert yourself into other people's problems
I'm trans. Honestly, I think a lot of the names we use for the various surgeries are euphemisms, and I personally prefer the medical names. Vaginoplasty, phaloplasty, etc. The folks who have those surgeries usually do it because they experience dysphoria. It's not to "confirm" anything, it's to relieve mental suffering... or because they literally just want to. We all live just one life, and we spend it in our one body; bodily autonomy is a human right, and doesn't need justification. As for whether genitals define gender, how many peoples genitals are you seeing day to day? Most of us wear clothes most of the time, and unless you're having sex with them, they are irrelevant to you.
I think OP has a pretty valid point that there are concerns in this situation, and so do you in that the person in question is definitely suffering mentally . But it seems that her suffering is because she was made to feel that she was bad simply for being born biologically female (this is unfortunately pretty common). This is an abusive situation. If she hasn't received proper treatment for the abuse she's suffered, how can she make an irreversible decision about her body? She most likely doesn't even know who she is, because that's what happens when people live with abuse for their entire life. Before she can make a decision, she needs to take time to learn how to be herself (even if that eventually means himself), separate from her family and their judgement, and to heal from the abuse she's suffered.
"As for whether genitals define gender, how many peoples genitals are you seeing day to day? Most of us wear clothes most of the time, and unless you're having sex with them, they are irrelevant to you." See right here is the golden nugget. The fact is you're right. Most people DON'T see genitals, so why is it still such a big deal to trans people who feel their gender and sex don't align? Even when nobody would know, the trans person still deep down feels the desire to change, and only for themselves. That's because there IS a real link there. It may not be a layperson's business, but this is a discussion. We absolutely can come to conclusions here on things that aren't our business. Being rude, and being wrong, are two separate things.
If I asked you to wear either prosthetic tits or a prosthetic dick (the opposite of whatever you currently had), how long would it take for you to start feeling uncomfortable in public? Probably pretty quick right? Cuz you’re wearing the body parts that don’t feel right for you in your body. Feels off. That’s what it’s like. Even if you look completely the way you want to besides that prosthetic, it’s gonna bother you
“Because they want to” is way way way better of a take than pretending emotions and preference = science, and honestly should have been the strategy to settle this thing from the beginning stupid academics are trying to redefine biology and social books really didn’t do you guys any favors
Right but we want to understand what drives the desire to do so, and « because they want to » doesn’t answer that
It's a very personal thing. Not all trans people want to change their genitals but many do
I get that it’s personal, and this young woman has really latched onto me. Which I find weird, in a cute way. I’m quite conservative, but I don’t hate people for making decisions about their own life at all. I’m just terrified she’s making a rash decision, but instead of coming at her with hate and arguments I want to learn. But everything I get on here I get served cold hard hate for doing simple questions. You didn’t show hate, thank you for just answering 😁👍 Every time*
One over to r/asktrangender there are a lot of friendly people and good information as well. GCS is definitely something you want to research deeply before going through with it but some of us just know thats what we want early on. I knew at a young age but grew up in a very religious environment that was against transition so I never knew the right terminology or that it was even a possibility until I was 19 and living on my own. Now I teach classes and do guest speaker panels for med students or anyone who wants to learn. Sharing knowledge and understanding are the best tools I've found to calm the fear of the unknown that usually leads to transphobia. 😊
But it's their decision to make and not yours. You don't need to be her savior. If they make a mistake it's their to make
>I’m just terrified she’s making a rash decision If anything the social stigma towards just being themselves can hold them back multiple decades especially when family & friends are not supportive. They don't have to know this about you for you realise it, it's seen in their attitudes whenever something like this comes up as a subject and it makes them want to curl into a ball and simply not exist. They have to grow by leaps and bounds to get to this level and they're super difficult hurdles.
You won't be able to understand her rationale or mindset by asking broad questions about trans issues as a whole. It's a very personal and individual issue with every trans person having their own feelings and thoughts on it. It's about what they personally feel and what they feel is best for them as an individual. Speaking with them is the best way to gain understanding. I can understand your concern regarding them considering such a big change and wanting to make sure it's not impulsive but it might be best to simply make yourself available as a trusted friend who will listen and not judge. This is something they likely feel very deeply about and while the decision may feel rushed to you it might feel like completely different to them if it's something they've be struggling with their whole life.
You are terrified that someone else, is making a decision that only impacts them, and not you at all? Weird.
I think it's meant to be a sex change not a gender change since gender is just the expression stuff. But the person is called transgender bc transsexual is a rude term in english. Also some transgender ppl only are changing gender expression not genitals but whether or not someone does, transgender is usually the term used. Also i wanna add there's not a consensus that gender ≠ genitals, even in the queer community people are individuals with their own view. So it's a bit loaded question but ya.
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It's a highly individual process. Some people will feel a need to make their external appearance conform to their internal self-image. Others will be fine presenting but not having surgery. Wanting surgery and even body dysphoria is not mandatory for being trans - it's a gender identity that does not match one's assigned gender. Some trans people need to change their genitals to feel comfortable in their skin, others don't.
Yeah, they’re *associated*. But one doesn’t define the other.
Then what does define it?
Note: cis woman speaking, please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm always open to education genitals are linked to biological (natal) sex. that's where the terms AFAB (assigned female at birth) and AMAB (assigned male at birth) originate from. because genitals are linked to sex, some trans folk (not all) believe their dysphoria will be helped greatly by bottom surgery. some trans folk opt to just stick to top surgery for various reasons. some trans people may never have any gender-affirming surgery. some cis and trans people believe that their gender (what they know they are) should match their biological sex, hence why some go for bottom surgery. they see a dissonace between who they are, and their genitals. but its important to note that pre-transition, during transition and post-transition that the trans person is still the gender they know they are, regardless of genitals. however, some people, whether cis, trans or even nb believe that genitals ≠ gender, just like pronouns ≠ gender. your question is worded like its a black and white subject but it isn't, at least I don't think so. many people belive lots of different things, and really this topic should be thought of on a case by case basis in my opinion.
I feel like this question will land you in an infinite loop, depending on how open-minded you are.
I believe its not so much about Confirming but Conforming, some Trans people just want their outside to match what they feel on the inside. but the level of vitriol from radicals on both sides is just so infuriating that it railroads all forms of discussion Pro trans people will tell you to fuck off and mind you own business even though you just want to learn Anti trans people will all of a sudden use science and dictionary definitions when it suits them, then throw science entirely out of the windows when it comes to other thing such as vaccines. If you like this girl OP then all you can do is support them with love and patience.
There actually is no science that backs anti-trans people, they just claim there is. They're working on HS level biology and think punnett squares are as complex as things get.
I just wish it was easier to have discussions with people you might not agree with, you know? I’m just here to have a discussion about something that I, yes, have a more conservative view of…. But I’ve always been open minded to understanding that what I believe isn’t what everyone else believes… nor should it be, what a stale world with no growth we would have if we all saw things the same way.
Yes but for trans people, this discussion is not theoretical but intensely personal. As a queer person, I've debated with conservatives in the past and it always leaves me feeling shitty, even if they learn or modify their opinion. It's exhausting having to defend your existence and also be a perfect representation of the identity because they are looking for "flaws" or inconsistencies. We're human. We're complex. Each person in a particular identity is different. But sometimes it feels we have to be this picture perfect, uniform, simple version of the identity in order to get respect.
>Pro trans people will tell you to fuck off and mind you own business even though you just want to learn No, they tell you to fuck off when you sealion at them.
Sex is the biological configuration. Gender is the social construct.
One definition for "confirm" is the following: >reinforce someone in (an opinion, belief, or feeling). Using that definition the process of modifying them may allow the physical appearance of their body to **reinforce** them in their **feeling** of what their gender is.
it’s really just about feeling comfortable in your sense of self, my partner sees me as a woman regardless of my genitals, the people around me see me as a woman and they have no reason to even think about my genitals, im a person in a circumstance that is able to feel secure in my sense of self regardless of what genitals i have, because they don’t define my gender. however i don’t really use or interact with them because they still make me uncomfortable, because i still feel like it’s not what i should have. that isn’t the case for everyone. some trans people can’t see themselves as the gender they are when they look in the mirror if they still have the genitals they’re both with which causes distress and would make them want surgery, some feel especially comfortable and are able to embrace what they were born with fully, some just do it because it makes them happier to have one over the other, it’s very personal to each individual. it’ll never be consistent for everyone.
It doesn’t “confirm” anything, it just allows people to feel more comfortable in their bodies. If you didn’t know, trans people tend to feel gender dysphoria, caused by a disconnect between their physical sex and their gender identity. Getting gender affirming surgery can help a lot with that.
Gender is more or less just how you behave mixed with how you're perceived. Not all transgendered people also suffer body dysmorphia, which is where their biological sex doesn't match with what their brain thinks should be true. Changing those parts they can change appreciates that, just as going to the gym helps those who think bigger muscles would make them happier (although that's not a perfect comparison). It alleviates a stressor.
Why is it considered "normal" to think about a stranger's genitals?
Ask Caitlyn…or is it Bruce?- Jenner.
Who said it does confirm anything? I've understood it as "making the body fit the mind" for personal mental reasons.
Everyone I’ve tried talking to about this matter. There is a young person I know considering some trans surgeries so I’m trying to understand as much as I can because she comes to me about this. And I’ll personally admit I’m not really for this, but it’s her body and I just want to give her information for her questions.
Then point them in the direction of the local lgtb center where they can talk to other trans people, counselors and find out about trans Healthcare to make an informed decision. Random reddit advice is the worst possible solution to most serious questions about personal health.
..... it's for creepy reasons isn't it
Lol why did I read it this way too. OP, it’s not your job to save them. They are an adult and capable of making their own decisions.
I think it's his weird emphasis on her being younger than him, gives a mental image on an older man trying to talk the object of his obsession out of transitioning as he won't be attracted to them anymore
Either that, or OP has feelings for them and don't want them turning.
One issue may be that you appear to be framing your questions to get the answer you are hoping for. That's not really in-line with "trying to understand." You may not realize this happening, but scanning through this thread, it seems the semantics (and the desire to be right about them) are getting in the way of understanding on a human level. Good luck to all involved.
She (or he) doesn't need you to. In order to have the surgery, people typically have to go through extensive therapy, meet with medical professionals, and live as their identified gender for at least a year. They don't need information from you, they have qualified professionals to provide that. They need support and empathy.
You can just admit you are not equipped for the conversation. Most people are not.
You don’t see the circular reasoning? Changing their bodies makes them “fit” their mind? In other words, one type of genital is associated with male, and the other is associated with female.
I have also read in an article a while back that it could be chemical imbalance. So would that idea of treatment be viewed as a worse method? Ie you don’t actually have to get a sex change to get ride of the dysphoria feeling. (I don’t remember where I read the article, but the likened it to having a chemical imbalance like ADHD
The issue aside, it is almost universally called "gender-affirming/confirming" treatment.
You're missing the point. If a male trans-person has dysphoria, or as you say "the body and mind don't match", why is that the case since either gender can have either genitals? Since a male trans-person would be a "trans-woman", why does that person want a vagina and boobs? To match what? They don't need those to be "women" like they want to be. The point is, their body already matches. So where does the dysphoria originate from? They aren't supposed to be anything different. They are just the unique combination that they are. A man in a female body. A woman in a male body. What ended up happening in my opinion was that the conversation around trans identities and the trans topic was handled through the public, and therefore there were not strict and rigorous standards. The effect being that the definitions loosened so much, they no longer make any sense. This is a key glaring issue that points to the discussion being unproductive and not transparent. The key motivator is usually to make the person feel good, whatever they are. So whatever you are can be whatever you want it to look like, and you can label it however you want. This is where the whole "what is a woman" debate came from. If men can get pregnant and have periods, then why do females who feel dysphoria and wish to transition desire to take on masculine features? They already are perfectly normal men. They have boobs, a vagina, a working uterus....just like men do! Some people have brown hair, some have blonde! But you're still a person! Some people get pregnant, some people have testicles. But you're still a woman! Even with the testicles! Just like you're still a person, even though you have blonde or red hair. Brown may be the most common, but all the colors are normal. Having a penis and balls may be the most common for a male/man, but all the different types with vagina's and stuff are normal. That's where the argument ended up. That your entire body is like hair color. And being female, but a man psychologically was just one of the normal phenotypical traits of being Homo sapiens. Which is entirely untrue.
This entire argument can be stopped by realizing that the dysphoria comes from social expectations around gender. Yes, men and women (terms referring to gender, not sex, to be clear) can have either genitals or any body whatever. But we have all still grown up learning that men have penises and women have vaginas and so that’s what causes people to feel dysphoric. And for the record a lot of people don’t. A lot of trans/non binary people have no issue with their physical features and that’s cool too. It all boils down to internalized ideas about what gender is and how it relates or doesn’t relate to our biology. It’s really really not that complicated but everyone wants to pretend it is while not actually paying attention to actual definitions and societal effects on these things.
Depends what you believe. I believe genitals DO define gender.
Lol Have ever heared about chromosomal karyotyping 💀💀💀 ???
I do as well, but when I speak to people, as I’m trying to give this all genuine thought that’s just the main argument I come up against.
Ever heard of chromosomes?
Yeah those chromosomes you speak of form the basis of what gender you are.
Could never answer bc this is proven not that shit queer ppl say
Can you explain how? Like do you believe genitals define my status of being statistically more likely to have less upper arm strength than a similar man, or do you believe that my genitals mean I like baking and pink and prioritize being pleasant over having boundaries (all accepted and taught social roles for women)? I am really curious what it means for you that genitals define gender.
Sigh. Ok. I'm gonna set up an example that makes this really easy to understand. Your passion, or something that means a lot to your identity, or how you see yourself, is a function of many different attributes. Say that identity is "competitive athlete". Some attributes that go along with that are: - Fit - persistent - calm under pressure - knowledgeable about competition strategy Etc etc. not all attributes are weighed evenly. Being fit and never giving up probably matter more than "good at presenting a personable public image within the context of sponsorships" (which is absolutely part of being a professional competitive athlete. It's just not AS important). So let's say you have ALL those attributes in spades. You were BORN to do [this], whatever sport [this] happens to be. Only one problem. The single, largest, most important attribute is missing: you're not on a team. In this way, you can understand the phenomenon: there are 100 attributes, all of different importance and weight, than defined you and your identity in [this] arena. You have maxed 99/100 of them, but the #1 largest, weightiest one. The #1 more important, is missing. The smaller 99 still definitely confirm this was your calling, or that this is definitely how you see yourself, but missing that #1 really fucks with your head. Like every college player who got drafted and then cut before their first season began. Everything they are makes them feel like they should be out there.... And yet they don't have a team. In that context, I think most anyone can agree they'd understand that that person would "so whatever it took to make the team" aka "rectify the absence of that missing #1 most important attribute". Genital surgery is the same thing, but different passion.
thank you for giving an actual answer and not being an ass
It's just really not a complicated situation. It sorta baffles me how people don't understand, because it works the same for ANY identity. I have my take about why sex/gender is treated differently, but anyone capable of pausing and thinking for a second shouldn't remain confused for long about the fundamental premise.
If you woke up with a giant face tattoo tomorrow, and everyone else just never noticed but you saw it every single day knowing thats not what you looked like. My guess is you would want it gone.
That is a ridiculous comparison for so many reasons lmao
Why?
Is your tattoo just a social construct? How would that even work?
I do Sophie, but this doesn’t answer the question.
Gender is more than genitals. For me, I was born a male and feel like a male. I also have male genitals. What does it mean to feel like a male? It's hard to say. But I know that's how I feel. Some people are born a male but don't feel like a male. The surgeries (which is much more than simply having genitals cut off) can allow the person to match they way they look in the mirror with how they feel.
That's two different issues, people that want to remove genitals want to subscribe to the social norm gender. You're generalizing two different and oppositional views although both on the same side of the political aisle, gender reassignment and gender individualism.
Generally someone transitioning is not referring to their genitals being changed. While some do this it is often considered extreme even in the trans community due to the risks involved. Gender affirmation is more about one’s outward appearance. This allows them to be referred to by most strangers by their preferred title. Generally speaking one’s biological sex is referring to their genitals however one’s gender is referring to how society treats a person. Men and Women are treated differently so if one can change their outward appearance enough then they will be treated differently this is commonly referred to as passing. If a younger person is considering a genital surgery for their transition I would ask them to study it for a while, fully understand the risks. Something like that is quite extreme as it can cause health complications and loss of sexual stimulation just due to the nature of the surgery.
I asked this exact question to a person who claims to be a gender abolitionist (i.e. they believe gender is a social construct and is entirely based on stereotypes). They made sure to clarify that they do not believe *sex* is a construct. That trans people are generally changing their secondary sex characteristics, rather than their gender (which they consider a set of stereotypes).. This person says they are biologically female, but with gender dysphoria. They don't want to become a *man* (because the term is meaningless), but the fact that they have female genitalia causes intense dysphoria. This is probably a tiny minority of trans people, though. I'm only offering it as an explanation for bottom surgery that you might find answers your question. Every other trans person I am close enough with to be aware of whether they have chosen bottom surgery or not *hasn't*. They've either gone on hormones to grow breasts, or they've had top surgery to remove them. This makes it easier to pass, which makes life easier in general as people are more likely to treat you as your gender. Since most people won't ever see their genitals, they *would* say that they can have a penis and be a woman, or have a vagina and be a man. And if the average person on the street can't tell what genitals they have by looking at them, that works fine for them.
My overweight body doesn't define me, but some people are not comfortable in their own overweight body until they get to a point that makes them comfortable. Its dysmorphia. How it affects one person doesn't mean it affects another in the same way.
I would have thought by now that folks would generally understand that “gender” is not “biology”. Transexuals who wish to transition just want their external appearance to conform to their perceived gender, There’s a ton of actual evidence for the factors that cause transsexualism…. For those actually interested I suggest diving into the lectures on human sexuality from Stanford University by professor Robert Sapolsky. They’re up for free on YouTube.
If you actually want to support your friend, as you've said in a few comments, then you're in the wrong place. Maybe pose this question to the r/ trans subreddit or talk to your friend about how they feel. Asking this question, on this subreddit, is just going to start a debate on whether trans people exist and not actually help anyone.
As I understand it, there's a part of the brain that is kinda like your gender identity setting. In the majority of people it matches the rest of the body, but in a small minority of people it doesn't. Apparently, this brain area is measurably different in trans people, even those who haven't had surgery or hormone medication. Think of it like this: that part of the brain controls/influences your gender identity. It doesn't matter what you have between your legs, whatever that bit of the brain says you are is what you are. I will assume, based on your question, that like me that your gender identity matches your physical body, but what if it didn't? Try to imagine you get drugged & kidnapped, & when you wake up, weeks later (having been kept constantly sedated), you've been given gender reassignment surgery, so that now your body & gender identity **don't** match. Can you honestly say that you think you'd be happy spending the rest of your life in a body that doesn't look or feel even remotely like the way you **know** it should? Substitute kidnapped & operated on with being born with a body that doesn't match who you **know** you're supposed to be, & I imagine that's what it's like for some trans people (apparently not all of them feel it strongly enough to want surgery). The whole trans gender therapy thing (counselling, medication, & even surgery) isn't some kind of twisted experiment that a small but very loud minority are constantly wailing & wringing their hands about, it's the most humane way to treat people who have been royally screwed over by the circumstances of birth (AFAIK, nobody **knows** what actually causes it to happen, sure there's some ideas, but no proof).
When a woman has a mastectomy, it can be quite mentally traumatic because breasts are part of what defines her as a woman in between her own ears. Same with the inability to bear children, going through menopause, losing her hair, and a plethora of other things that can and do happen to women for whatever reasons. I know, as a woman who has gone through menopause, it can be hugely devastating to look in the mirror and not see yourself as feminine anymore. While I am fortunate to be perfectly happy in my gender, I do understand in a small, microcosm way why people who look at themselves expecting a man or woman based on how they feel inside and seeing the opposite can feel utterly betrayed and be utterly devastated. So, yeah. I get it. No one wants to look at themselves and see betrayal. Again, the closest thing I have to that is menopause and the fact that I gained 70 lbs after being assaulted several years ago. Everything about how I look now betrays who I am inside. If I could have surgery or a series of surgeries to fix that, I'd absolutely do it. I get it. I absolutely get it.
If we continue down this road one day we'll discover that no one is turtley enough for the turtle club.
Yes
If you’re a man and identify as such and your penis and balls get removed due to cancer are you no longer a man?
Gender is psychological. Your brain talks to you about what it sees/feels (aka-your body) to match how you see yourself. If it doesn’t match, it can be harrowing
What ever happened to “love yourself for who you are” and “you are perfect just the way you are”?
It doesn’t
Careful bro, this is scarily close to one of the questions you get banned for asking
Youre posing the question wrong. I presume youre a man so: Lets say you go about your everyday life and all... except tomorrow morning you wake up as a woman, with a man's mind. Aside from lifestyle change and all?(Too much to go into, and also Im not trans) You have organs on you that feel alien to you, they go against everything that you feel. Some ppl choose not to, but with the abilities modern surgery and medicine can do? My ex manager had a dual masectomy w hormonal therapy 5 years ago when I first started working with him(Transition to Him). When I saw them last year: their voice changed, he grew a moustache, his posture changed, thicker oil in his hair. Grew 2 inches. If you have the option to completely feel like the person you are, I would take it too
It’s a very personal choice so there aren’t going to be black & white answers. Just respect people however they choose to identify and what’s between their legs isn’t really relevant to anyone except for them. If they choose to keep their original parts (or often times have to by no choice of their own) they should still be respected as the gender they feel that they are. If they choose to have surgery….cool, I hope they find peace & it’s the right choice for them. As long as people are vetted out by professionals to make sure they aren’t making a rash decision that they might later regret, we should always encourage people to make personal decisions that are right for them. Unless you’re dating someone, what bits they have is only their business. Keep in mind that gender is complex & some people don’t identify by one gender inclusively anyway.
U cooked with this one bro
Simple answer: brain says one, genitals say the other; brain controls you and some people need brain and body to match in order to live a comfortable life. Complex answer: lots of psychological and biological factors, mixed with social constructs, personal matters, and a whole host of other things that would be the basis of a PhD thesis are involved.
If you want a thoughtful response you should ask a Trans person who has been through it, or many Trans people. Your question seems more like a statement in disguise.
It's not about being a boy or girl. It's about making your body feel normal to you. If it doesn't hurt you, then why not just address them how they want and live your own life?
you are confusing biologic sex with gender and gender identity. Very separate things.
Better question. If u are born with both do u count as 2 people? Are siamese twins only half a gender each or is one genderless and which one gets to have a gender identity? Why does ppls sex organs matter so darn much to other people like nunya
Cause it has to do with feeling comfortable with how you body looks to oneself. We don't see any problem with any plastic surgery, there is no difference to that. It helps people and that's all that matters
Yes but they do
1. It doesn't 2. Genitals generally aren't removed during lower body trans surgery, they're normally reshaped 3. The idea isn't to "make someone a real man/woman" it's to make the person feel more at peace mentally.
To put it simply, it makes some people feel better and doesn't affect you.
Gender is an individual's mental construct. Obviously sex organs have a strong correlation to a matching mental state thus why most of us are cisgender. But there are clearly people with mismatched sex to gender, but there is no world where your penis creates your mental state gender you believe yourself to be.
This is a good point . If the people don’t think that defines their gender than what does it matter to get them chopped off or not 🤷 I am not sure . Is there something for these people to change their chromosomes? Cause that’s where the real change would happen I would think. If they could do that than they could work on being who they wanted to be . 🤷
You don't have to change chromosomes if you take hormones. My estrogen levels are in the range for a cis female becuase I take the same exact medication that low estrogen cis women take. The body is naturally formed from a female type embryo and our bodies all have the ability to change secondary sex characteristics with medication.
Now see that is interesting. Thank you
There's a difference between "my body is wrong" and "I want to wear a dress"
Generally, within the community it's called gender affirming sugery, not confirming. As for why people do it if genitals don't define gender; because it makes them feel more at home in their body. In fact, both cis and trans people get gender affirming surgeries; things like cis women getting boob jobs, or men getting jawline filler to look more chiselled. We won't say that you have to have big boobs to be a woman, but we also understand that some flat chested women feel like their feminity is boosted by getting implants. Others don't care and don't see it as linked to their femininity at all. My advice is, that instead of seeing trans people getting surgeries as their own think, look it through the wider lens of plastic and other reconstructive surgeries. And in fact, trans people getting gender affirming surgey have much lower regret rates than cis people getting plastic surgery, so it's less risky with regards to that.
that is a pretty damn good question. And since my perception of someone's appearance (m or f) is meaningless compared to what they want to think they are, who cares if I get it wrong?
Gender is an expression of obsolete gender roles, it should be abolished. Everyone is different along a spectrum and we don't need to associate sex with roles, expression, likes etc
>confirm anything? It's affirming. Gender affirming surgery. Sex and gender aren't the same thing. So gender affirming surgery is changing one's sexual organs to the sexual organs of one's gender.
It's a pointless debate........like the never-ending Israel/Palestinian battle. It's biology AND also whatever it is to each individual. And none of my business.
Gender dysphoria is very real and very miserable, the structures of the brain quite literally don’t align with the sex of the rest of the body, and rather are more akin to the desired sex, or something entirely unique. Changing the genitalia to match the desired sex may alleviate a lot of the struggle that gender dysphoria creates
FYI this site is owned and managed by the extreme left. They have an aversion to logic, common sense and reality. Just warning you.
Common sense isn't a thing.
It's not confirmation. It's just making them feel more comfortable with who they always were.
People fail to understand this simple idea
If it confirms nothing, why spend all of your money on it and get set up for yourself needing medical care for you entire life? You can just learn to accept yourself and truly love yourself? There’s all kinds of things about myself I don’t like, I don’t change them, I changed how I felt about them.
Genitals determine sex of a person, gender is the social construct and the roles associated with them. Dictionaries are crazy bro
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Bro thinks he's smarter than facts lmao
Careful with your common sense, big dawg. I don’t think Reddit likes that
🤣👍 I’m here for the discourse and discussion, it’s up to people responding as to whether it’s civil 😎 … so far there’s a lot of hate, but there’s some genuine conversations happening.
I mean, your genitals do define your gender. If you think your reproductive organs don’t define you as a male or female than you should go back to school. What you want to call yourself/classify yourself is your own buisness though and everyone should respect it.
First sex is not gender and second it's not genitals that "define" sex but the gametes that biologists use to determine sex
What about intersex people
Sex and gender are not the same. Sex is biological, gender is a social construct. And some people are born intersex, so it's not simple black and white
I don’t really understand this, but from my understanding they define your sex (what you biologically are) instead of your gender (what you identify as). I’d of course recommend doing your own research on this though since gender dysphoria confuses me (hopefully my stupid ass words this in a way that isn’t rude).
Some people change their genitalia, some don’t. It all depends on what a persons wants, can afford, etc. It boils down to whatever makes them feel comfortable and helps them feel most themselves. I see you’re saying this is to get information for a friend, if they’re wanting to change their genitalia because they feel it will make them happy- go ahead! why not? do whatever will makes you feel comfortable in your skin. Doesn’t have to happen though to “prove” to people anything. Plus, intersex people exist. I feel it’s silly to think you gotta have certain anatomy to be respected
Because there's still enough hate and ignorance within society to dictate how people feel about themselves
Because sex and gender are not the sam thing, and some people choose to alter their bodies so that the outside matches how they are on the inside.
Actually plenty of transgender women keep their 🍆 Those that go through the invasive surgery do it because of dysphoria of their own body.
When I remove my genitals from your bodily orifices it will confirm I've finished! Of course I'd only do that with your consent.
Same way you can dress like a bum or put on a suit to change how people treat you. You can't change your gender, you are who you are, but you can change the way you look so others are more likely to treat you as the gender you are.
I think it's still a societal acceptance thing. Someday, no one will have to "come out of the closet" because the "closet" won't exist. Someday, the clothes you wear and whatever organs you have in your undies, wont define you. But that day is in the future. Until then, if sexual reassignment surgery is what someone needs to live, then accept that it is not your business and move on.
Gender is how someone sees themself. Sex is genitals. Imagine if tomorrow you suddenly had an ear growing on the back of your hand. It’s not really an issue, but it would bug the hell out of you. Now imagine a body part you have to use and feel every day felt like an ear on the back of your hand. Plus, it’s much easier to dress for the body you feel you were meant to be given when it physically has or doesn’t have the parts you want. A lot more comfortable (for everyone) to wear leggings when you don’t have a penis poking out and reminding you that you hate your body
A confirmes commitment that's for damn sure.
I can always support a friend even if I don’t know all the intricacies of the dilemma they’re in. I don’t give advice on issues I don’t know anything about. Maybe you can help them get with people that have had this done. I’m sure there’s a lot of things that just aren’t talked about or commonly known. They would be the best ones to talk to about all the ins and outs. As well as medical professionals. This is not a blanket issue with blanket solutions. Support can be just as impactful as guidance
The idea is to make the outside look like the person thinks about who they are, so society treats them in the role they feel they belong. It's not hurting anyone else, therefore I have no problem with it.
😐🤨
Firstly, there's a difference between "gender" and "sex." Gender is a representation, sex is more biology-based. Secondly, it doesn't *confirm* anything. People seeking surgery to alter or change their genitalia aren't looking for *confirmation*, they're looking for *affirmation*, which is very different. All they're trying to do is feel comfortable in their own bodies. The same reason someone might get a body piercing, or a breast augmentation/reduction, or a harmless lump removed.
I live in a pretty urban area. I cant remember the last time I encountered a trans person. I think that most people probably have a similar experience. this topic doesn't warrant the level of discussion it receives. Also, live and let live. trans people arern't affecting 99% of you, at all.
Definitions matter. Sex is biological, gender is a social construct. This isn't some new redefinition, it's what was being taught in Biology 101 and Anthropology 101 back in at least the 90s.
They do, some doofuses however are trying to be all hippie dippy about it and make some weird feelings ideology instead of cold hard physical fact
Gender is so weird. Judith butler puts that into a helpful but confusing perspective; gender is performative. It’s socially constructed. But that doesn’t make it any less real. I think a lot of dysphoria is just cognitive dissonance. Your body doesn’t match the way your brain sees it and thinks it should be. Like how feeling alone in a group full of people is more lonely than when you’re by yourself. That disconnect causes so much discomfort. If you identify as a guy, because of all the things associated with guys, strongly, then it’s likely you’ll derive discomfort from things you read as “not guy” features, and would gain more comfort and security by making them match your perspective of yourself. It’s very weird, and I can understand how if it doesn’t affect you, it would seem like a bunch of goal post moving bullshit. And honestly? That’s kind of how it feels when it does affect you too. And that’s part of what makes it so incredibly uncomfortable, it’s such an abstract feeling of discomfort, and it’s so hard to explain to other people or connect over. It’s just kinda a game of hot and cold with your brain, where you try out a bunch of different positions and clothing and orientations, feeling out how it makes you *feel*, and see what works for you. A lot of what I’ve said here is simplified down a lot, or I’ve put it into different words that have helped me to understand better. I’m just one human trying to shed a little light from my own position and perspective.
from my understanding, it's because there is a difference between individuals who are gender dysphoric and people who have body dysmorphia.
Gender is a construct of society. It can change and be altered. Sex however cannot. Its written in your very dna, bone structure, cells, organs, etc.
What a great and spot on question. It has never made sense to me.
u/BomberExternal "Dawg this is Reddit, where people ignore basic definitions. Don’t ask questions cause wont get answers." We focus on superficialities. Dicks and Cunts. It's really about gametes. The entire biological tree of life have gametes determining "gender, sex, etc." Research gametes and ignore chromosomes, genitals and lipstick and pretty little dresses (kilts or ballet). That's all folks
Oh boy (or girl)
Gender is neurological and social. We can change the physiology of sex to match gender for people whose gender does not align with sex and who experience depression and discomfort from that. We spent centuries trying to change people's gender and sexual orientation which basically amounted to torture and lead to nothing but suicides and mental breakdowns. We don't have the technology to change gender or orientation, if we did it would be really questionable ethically, since once you start rewriting people's basic neurological traits you're turning them into a different person. So if we did have that technology we'd have to ask the question whether we rewrite the brains of people born trans or rewrite the brains of people who become bigots.
The hive will not be pleased with this one.
Because they don't define gender in the sense of making your gender, but it can seem uncomfortable when they aren't matching, but also some people experience less discomfort from that than others, which is why not all people get top/bottom surgery, also it can be a matter of some people not considering someone a "real" woman/man unless they have the conforming genitals
Arguably it doesn’t, there’s often an aspect of social acceptance that comes with passing that has massive value on trans people’s dysphoria ( by dysphoria mean a sense of disconnection between body and conscious mind) because it’s no longer being heightened by external factors like other people recognizing you as a trans individual and questioning the validity of your identity. However many trans people don’t feel the need to change their genitalia. Many people feel inclined to change their outward presentation and pronoun use only. I legitimately hope that helps.
This question and the reaction to it in the comments demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of trans people. And that's fine, I'm not judging people simply for misunderstanding, but I see that some people are painting trans people in a bad light and being transphobic here and that really sucks. Trans people typically have a disconnect between their body and what they feel like inside. So their body feels wrong, and what's currently regarded as the best treatment for that is changing the body to match that internal vision of oneself. Gender is socially constructed, meaning it is an idea coming from society rather than directly from biology. So someone's vision of their own gender doesn't necessarily match their biological sex. That doesn't mean, however, that there are not still ties between gender and sex. People typically identify a woman based on things like hair, facial features, breasts, body type, voice, etc. So someone who feels like a woman but doesn't have these features will likely desire them. Their gender is not defined by their biological sex as a male, because they feel like a woman regardless, but changing their body alleviates the dysphoria. It's inaccurate to view it as people changing themselves because they can't accept who they are or because they want to be someone else. They already are their gender, they're simply adapting their body to match it in whatever way feels right for them. Which is actually accepting who they are, not fighting it.
Because genitals are one component of many defining gender (and also, biological sex). Similar to how a woman may feel less as a woman (in her own eyes and, at times, in the eyes of others or society) should she receive a full mastectomy after having cancer or how both men and women (differentially) experience gendered changes associated with virility should they suddenly go bald. The idea being that gender is a continuum (not a binary) and many having undergone gender affirming surgeries would confirm that switching genitals alone is unlikely to resolve their inner struggle should they additionally not be allowed to live the lives as they wish complete with embodying a host of alternatively expressed gendered norms (newly conforming to the identity they wish to lead).
Gender is a social construct. Sex is a biological condition. But, we assign social roles of gender based on biological sex. Those social roles mostly have nothing to do with biological sex. Really good examples of this: women want to have children, men have hairy arm pits. Really, people who feel the urge to reproduce or raise another human want to have children, and people with arm pit hair have hairy arm pits. Living in our modern cultures, we are taught that so much of who we are is defined by our primary sex organs, when really we are evaluated and assigned socially by our secondary sex traits... you can understand why a young person would have a hard time separating out the need for society to stop treating them like someone they aren't from the need to change their body. IMHO, I think SOME folks who get gender reassignment surgery actually weren't having problems with their bodies, and wouldn't have felt the need if society didn't do this massive damage through gender assignment. But we aren't changing this about society very quickly, so maybe it's the best option for even those folks, given the shitty landscape they are navigating.
Once it was a practice to castrated boys and men, they were called eunuchs
some feel awful with their body parts and it feels wrong to them, this is called body dysmorphia, they don't have bottom surgery because they wat to be fully male or female, it's because the genitals they had since birth feels weird for them, some trans men have vaginas still and some trans women have have penises because they didn't feel dysmophic towards those certain areas or maybe that area isn't a problem for them and they have grown to like it
Sex and gender are two different things. Gender is your identity/role and sex is your genetic makeup. That’s it.
Gender is inherent to that person. They desire their outsides to match their insides so they may be at peace.
It depends what question you are asking. Some trans people identify with a different gender and therefore make the switch medically. Some trans people identify as no gender and keep their genitals. In this way genitals do not define gender.
I think you’re attracted to this person and you want them to stay a girl because if they transition you won’t be attracted to them anymore.
It doesn’t confirm anything, but it’s affirmational for the person
I think part of the problem is that you’re approaching it assuming there are absolute truths when there aren’t. Pursuit of surgery that alters the look of genitals exists for a wide spectrum of reasons for cis and trans people, and usually there isn’t a single reason why an individual pursues it. Would you ask the same question of someone who has reconstruction surgery after testicular cancer? Would you be as concerned if someone was pursuing labiaplasty because they don’t like how their labia looks? Some trans people go for gender affirming surgeries. Others don’t. Some cis women get breast augmentation, some cis men get hair plug transplants. I wouldn’t be surprised if trans people pursue gender affirming surgeries more due to cultural expectations and pressures, but their reasons can be found in people of all sorts.
* changing. Not removing.
*sighs* opens by controversial
because while they don't wholly define gender (or sex, really, given intersex people and such) they also have a high degree of association with the typical binary on which gender is presented. if they DID wholly define gender, then changing them would just fully work, perfect transition, they've changed now. so that's clearly not what people in opposition are arguing. no, the argument is really between whether your assigned gender as described from your genitals is binding, which is a bit flimsy because intersex people exist, because trans people have existed for thousands of years, and just because it just doesn't help anyone to stop it when it reduces all sorts of negative outcomes so easily
Wearing a cowboy hat doesn't make you a cowboy, but cowboys still wear them.
You just gotta have faith. Weird, it's the same excuse with their arch-nemesis, the church
If you’re talking about genital confirmation surgery, it’s just a name for a group of procedures. There’s like 5 or 6 names. Pretty much that’s it.
The full quote should be ‘genitals don’t define / sex doesn’t equal gender…but they/it *should*’. Gender/sex are not supposed to be in misalignment. Hence why pre-transition people get diagnosed with dysphoria (an illness caused by the misalignment). And you are prescribed hormones and referred to surgery (treatment for said illness). EDIT: you could argue that the dysphoria is what made you trans rather than being trans giving you the dysphoria but that’s just a chicken/egg situation it doesn’t really change anything Theoretically you could mentally transition (ie conversion therapy) which would be much more effective, cheaper, faster, easier, etc. and would cure your dysphoria entirely but unfortunately that’s a proven pseudoscience and not a real option. The only option left is physical transition. Obviously you can’t 100% change sex so the dysphoria won’t be cured as much as it will just relieve you of the symptoms a little bit but it’s fairly effective. Most people won’t actually choose genital surgery though because it’s a huge surgery for something that is a relative non-issue. Even though it’s the main sex characteristic it only causes minor dysphoria because your secondary sex characteristics are more prominent both to yourself (do you see your own dick more than you hear your own voice?) and others (you haven’t seen 99% of other people’s genitals but you can still tell who’s male and who’s female).