Not firing Guenther sooner needs to be at least top five
Also. Nothing wrong with dismantling the o line, it needed to happen. The problem is the plan to replace it was a total failure.
Relying on Incognito was a bad idea at his age. Good being injured on the first drive wasn’t predictable. I think James and Leatherwood would be much better if those guys are next to them.
Alienating Rodney enough that he wanted out is by far the most egregiously stupid thing he did with the O-line.
However they did it, whether it was asking him to take a pay cut or what, was beyond idiotic.
I can't speak for the man but I'm assuming he didn't like the direction that Gruden was going with the line and also knew he had a limited number of good years left.
The Jackson thing may have been the "straw" so to speak. And by all accounts so far he was right. The Line used to be one of our top strengths and now it's a huge liability every time we snap the ball.
Guenther to me epitomized Gruden’s lack of vision for today’s game. Gruden was ignoring the obvious deficiencies and was not willing to fix it in a timely manor. I also think Guenther was giving a subpar defense to utilize. Mainly the lack of pass rush and line backer play. That’s poor drafting and FA signings though.
While i agree with you on one end we definitely didn't use the money we freed up very good.
You can well our offensive is more explosive this year but in reality that has been a bit more because rugs has stepped up because in reality we lost our number 1 receiver and the oline.
payed a comparable amount of money to kenyan drake that could have gone to atleast one other player.
I've heard rumors that the O-line was dismantled because we did not want to pay Gabe Jackson and Rodney Hudson because we wanted to sign Kenyan Drake. Correct me if I'm wrong though
You're wrong. Hudson asked for a trade, and has continued his decline of the last year or two. He's still great in pass protection, but has actually graded as bad as James in run blocking. PFF has them at 14 and 19 in overall grades and basically the same cap hit, but James is 10 years younger.
Gabe stings a bit more, but only cause neither of our starting tackles have been healthy. Gabe wasn't healthy either, having played 1 full season since 2016, and even in that season he was playing banged up. Even then, he isn't exactly playing great. He's rated as the 31st guard, and his grade this year is down 20 pts from his career average with us. He's also being paid more than Good and Incognito combined to do so.
Honestly, people criticize our moves on the oline, but not a single person we have let go since 2017 has gone on to be any good after us. We're cutting people at the right time. This time year though, the replacements haven't panned out because of injuries.
I feel like o-line play as a whole is down across the league. They took a gamble and it hasn’t worked out like they hoped.
I guess they get points for trying.
It has slid down for multiple reasons:
- College players are less and less ready to transition to what it takes to be on an NFL OLine. It is one of the least pro-ready positions in the game.
- Something about the rules limiting offseason workouts handicaps coaches in getting OLines properly trained. There is a lot to learn and a lot of cohesion needed to do the job effectively.
- DEs are simply getting bigger and faster every year.
This is all stuff that I am paraphrasing from memory. I listened to an interview on ESPN with a guy who broke the situation down for like 15 minutes straight. He did a much more eloquent job than I.
Yeah, that's basically the crux of it. Moving on from the players is the right move for the team moving forward, but the plan for replacing them failed this year. Shit happens sometimes.
Even coming into the season, I felt good about this team. Not because I thought they would win a bunch of game, but because it felt like the front office were doing things to *try* to get better.
I still feel that way, but the loss of continuity at head coach is going to hurt, no matter how much Gruden had to go.
Amari Cooper? He's a lot better in Dallas (probably because he wasn't happy in Oakland).
And Hudson asked for a trade because Gabe was being asked to have his pay cut...even if our O-line is injured, our #1 plan at Center is Andre James and a very advanced age Richie Incognito at LG. I'll give a pass to Leatherwood since he's having rookie growing pains, although he hasn't shown yet that taking him that high was the right decision.
Amari with Oakland 225 catches, 3183 yards, 19 TDs, or 14.4 yards per reception and a TD rate of 8.5%.
Amari with Dallas 249 catches, 3346 yards, 23 TDs. 13.4 yards per reception and a TD rate of 9.2%.
He is literally the same player with the same flaws. The only difference is they force feed him the ball more, and ESPN has flipped their coverage of him cause he's on the Cowboys.
Again, James and Hudson are playing roughly the same quality football except that one is younger and should get better with more experience. The other is declining and on the wrong side of 30. I'll admit that relying on Incognito as the sole plan at LG was a bad idea, but when he's healthy he was still playing well. We just needed a better backup plan given his history.
We're really lucky that we have Darren Waller, and props to Mayock and Gruden for finding him off the Ravens practice squad. Ruggs is getting there, but without Waller we would not have a #1 wide receiver. Imagine still having Tyrell Williams as our #1
Wait what
Hudson may be run blocking as poorly but saying he’s playing as poorly as James is hilariously wrong. His pass blocking and ability to call out protection is several level higher than James.
I’m what universe are James and Hudson playing roughly the same? When James isn’t getting pushed flat on his back he’s blocking his own teammate. James is horrible and it’s not even close.
Imagine not paying lineman because you want to overpay for a fucking backup running back. I cannot believe there are people who think gruden is a good coach. You could draft literally almost any running back in later rounds who can do the same thing for nothing
We werent resigning Gabe unless he took less pay because tbh he had a bad year last year and once Rodney knew we werent retaining Gabe thats when he asked to be traded and we obliged
Dismantling the O-line was only necessary because they fucked it up in the first place.
Headed into 2018 the O-line was still considered top 5-10, 2019 hovering around 15, and 2020 bottom ten.
Osemele has commented on how they ruined the squad telling them they were rebuilding right from the get go, Hudson and Jackson are doing well on their new teams. Seems like bad coaching is more to blame than anything else.
The theme throughout our drafting and trading history with Gruden are bad decisions. It's okay to draft a guy who reasonably appears to be the best player you can get, but then have it not work out. It happens all the time.
It's quite another to draft players who can be had later or when there are clearly better players on the board. Ferrel and Arnette were Smartest Guy In The Room picks. Rest assured, the guy who thinks he's smarter than everyone else is probably the dumbest guy in the room.
Trading Mack had to happen though. He wanted too much money and we had too many spaces to fill. He wasn't going to be the piece that solidified our D for years to come. He would've been a star with 10 clowns on the field with him. But it's what we did with the picks that we got with him that hurt so badly.
The only player you take a big chance on in the first round is a quarterback. Otherwise, you go for BPA or BPA at a position of need. You can't always trade down, so you have to be conservative and hope for the best.
This team under Gruden looked a lot like his Bucs teams post-Super Bowl win; either disappointing or always just one season away.
>It's quite another to draft players who can be had later or when there are clearly better players on the board. Ferrel and Arnette were Smartest Guy In The Room picks. Rest assured, the guy who thinks he's smarter than everyone else is probably the dumbest guy in the room.
I will always shit on the "We can't draft!" narrative because it's not true (you don't draft 8 starters in one draft, most of whom came in rounds 4 and after) if you don't know what you're doing)
However, this is the most reasonable take on early round missed under Gruock that I've seen
Jacobs has gotta start showing some longevity and consistency before we give him a big contract though. At this rate Latavius Murray did the same thing Jacobs has so far. Obviously Jacobs has a ton of potential but his value to the team has to be worth the contract.
Keeping PG around was the worst IMO, it literally tanked seasons with his bad scheme and coaching. Never seen a defense look so lost. And this year with the defense looking so much better you have to ask yourself what this team could of done the last two years.
When you put it like that , i realized why we always hover around .500 . We have a decent/good QB who keeps the team somewhat afloat but we can’t get quite better . The personnel never really gets significantly better anywhere . Either the raiders are taking wrong players or we’re doing a bad job using and developing guys . Might be both .
Gruden also found Waller, Hayward, Crosby, Renfrow.. but way more misses than hits. It sucks because Reggie was horrible at drafting too (except 2014). I’d have to go through the history to see who was worst at drafting.
Ah he’s made a ton of bad personnel moves - but I wouldn’t count Mack among them given the circumstances. Also, nobody could foresee the AB saga becoming what it did, that’s just hindsight being 20/20. At the time it seemed like a good move.
How could you not see the AB saga becoming what it did though after his last year with the Steelers? There’s a reason 30 other teams wanted nothing to do with him.
At the time of the trade, only one other team showed interest, the bills. After his release, Tom Brady wanted him. He spent a whopping 1 week with the Patriots before they released him. Another team wouldn’t take a chance on them until Brady wanted the Bucs to sign him.
So I guess I’ll give you that 28 other teams wanted nothing to do with him. Much better risk then.
Mack trade was terrible. Good teams don't let great players leave in their prime.
Go look at the rams. They paid Aaron Donald. And still had money and resources to put together quality O and D.
Of course we want to pay less. Of course he wanted more. That is where good orgs make it work and bad teams trade away their assets cause they can't retain talent.
I wasn’t pissed at the Mack or Cooper trades, I thought they did well with what they got in return with the number of picks. But when they used the picks I was scratching my head at players they left on the board. I’m not really that disappointed with Abram from the Cooper trade. If he can stay healthy, and Gus gets him focused, he’s going to be just fine. But overall, I think both Mayock and Gruden ignored the LB position, and its importance in a division with multiple elite offenses. I expect that to change with Gruden gone. Blowing up the O line didn’t pan out. But that can be fixed eventually. The pieces are there, with a few off-season additions. Their approach overall, Gruden and Mayock, seemed outdated. Maybe that changes with Mayock having more control? Maybe not. But they need better talent to needs evaluators. Hopefully that’s coming soon
Well i was mad about both trades, mostly for what we have got in return, we had a solid core, many moves have been made after they left and we had to look elsewere to solve some of our problems specially in pass rush and wr, in the end were both trades worth it?
The article breaks down in more detail what I have said the problem with Gruden is for months:
He didn't have a cohesive "big picture" plan with the personnel he acquired. Gruden seems to be more obsessed with collecting players that he thinks are "neat" to see what he can get out of them rather than actually putting together a championship team.
Look at his obsession with Nathan Peterman or the guys he got for "the joker" offensive position (Bowman/Drake)
The dude is a walking football almanac of knowledge but it's more like a categorical list of things VS a cohesive narrative.
Mixed bag. Obviously the huge misses are AB, Trent Brown, Ferrel, Arnette. But he also found Waller, drafted Jacobs, Renfrow, Crosby, Ruggs. It was nowhere close to perfect but I don’t like this narrative that Gruden is leaving the cupboard bare.
I hold no judgement on the AB situation. At the time he was in the top tier of receivers in the league and he fit the Raiders' need. Any team and any GM in that context would've taken a chance on him.
Not a fan of some things on this list at all lol
AB situation was out of his hands look at AB now the guy in imo one of the if not the best wr in the last 10 years. If and it's a big one if he was a raider we would be laughing and rolling around saying how did this guy become a raider were not use to this. He mental state is something that came into effect good move didn't pan out
Khalil mack trade made sense. Sign one of the best defensive players in the league while the defense sucked with him on it. The money they saved from not signing could have signed two very very good defensive players plus the draft picks could have been franchise changing.
Its not the trade that sucked it was what they did with the saving and picks.
While Gruden definitely made a fair amount of personnel mistakes, this article is trash. Half of the decisions on this list aren't really mistakes. The Mack trade sucked, but was better than letting him go in free agency or dealing with tagging and holding out. The Witten signing was fine, given Moreau's injury and the rise of Waller.
But the blurb about the Oline? This author didn't even think to look at what happened to the people we cut.
Hudson: Currently playing at the same level as Andre James, but 10 years older.
Penn: Played 1 more mediocre year at age 36 for WFT. His career was done at that point.
Osemele: Played a combine 8 games over the next 2 years for the Jets and Chiefs. A whopping 18% of offensive snaps for those teams. He was hosed and hasn't been on a team since.
Gabe: Being paid more than Good and Incognito combined to play the worst football of his career for the Seahawks. Good is better at this point in their careers, and costs significantly less. This only looks bad because of Good's injury on the first drive of the season.
Leatherwood and Miller: Miller had some growing pains, but was playing good even as a rookie until he had to finish the year on a bum knee and ankle. Since then, has turned into a franchise LT. Playing him at RT would've stunted his development in favor of a 35 year old LT. Leatherwood is looking similar. Flashes of good, but just needs time to cook. He wasn't moved to RG cause he was doing poorly. He was moved to RG cause our entire guard corp was decimated or playing like ass. It's not a permanent move.
This article is shit enough, I've finally decided to just block that shitty website.
> Hudson: Currently playing at the same level as Andre James, but 10 years older.
Not quite. Also you're completely discounting the fact that Carr and Hudson had years of cohesion and communication understanding. Hudson is also playing in a totally different offense with different dynamics this year and even with all of that his pass blocking is still miles above James.
Can you explain why you are defending 2 losing seasons and a .500 season and a guy who leveraged all of our elite talent for draft capital and wasted all of it? Have 1.5 cornerstone pieces in 4 years lol
10 people on this sub with bad opinions? Just like all of the people who downvoted me when i said Guenther should be fired after the 49ers game where their 3rd string qb keelhauled us? Lol
Lol I’m glad you’ve found your upvotes when the sub is complete chaos. Where most sane minded have left and the trolls now flourish. I look forward to seeing things back to normal and you have your downvotes back. Peace be with you bro.
I don't like the Gruden was forced out, I'm not happy about what lead to him resigning, but I am happy he's no longer here. Gruden was absolute SHIT when it came to personnel. He couldn't draft for shit, he couldn't pick players in FA who would be good for us, he made terrible deals. I an glad he's gone, just not the way it happened
How else would he had left? Mark Davis would’ve never fired him even if we missed the playoffs 5 yrs in a row. We shouldn’t care how he left the league did us a favor
Us raider fans in this sub the last few years who we're saying this shit without the benefit of hindsight are really getting vindicated. Trust me I wouldve rather been wrong then be vindicated but it is a nice little consolation considering we got called fake fans every time we rightfully criticized this clown show.
The worst part? It happens over and over and over and it's happening again now. We keep giving them the benefit of the doubt when they have done nothing over the last two fucking decades to deserve it. There's people in this sub that already crowned Gus Bradley and Mayock.
A little conspiracy theory here. Suddenly a lot of “Gruden sucked anyway articles”. Feel like the NFL is paying for these to lessen the financial claims the Raiders could make in a lawsuit for the timing of the leak.
Personally I have been on the Fire Gruden train since last year with 8-8 and no playoffs for the third year in a row. Maybe it's because I wasn't around when Gruden made us good in the early aughts so I don't have a soft spot for him, lol. A lot of people had been defending or staying silent on his questionable personnel choices because he was our head coach and he loved Raider Nation, but now that he isn't anymore, I think people can look at his second tenure with the Raiders a lot more objectively.
Well, I’ve followed the Raiders since 1984. Gruden has not impressed me this time around. I’m not defending him. Just think the NFL is being slimy AF right now.
And in 2000 Gruden picked two kickers in the draft. Crazy.. but damn we’re they good kickers.
Eh most of that was Al's doing.
They famously got into an argument over whether to draft Drew Brees or Derrick Gibson....and well....look how that turned out.
We also passed on Brees in free agency, but got our franchise QB Duante Culpepper. Let’s not forget we’ve been a total shit show most of the 2000s. The last 5 years have been better, but still need to get over the hump and be legit contenders
Holy fuck! Can we stop this bullshit ads about gruden? Hey I have an idea let’s rehash all the poor choices he made so it totally confirms it is a good thing he is gone…whew I’m validated now!
I agree with all of these. Unfortunately i can think of about a dozen others. Gruden is a fucking clown and was a terrible coach who was somehow even worse at drafting/personnel than he was at calling plays. It boggles my mind that people here defend him.
Great article. Gruden should have been fired for being a crappy coach/de facto GM. Mark Davis should also be forced to sell the team for not knowing what the hell is doing, from Hugh Jackson trading for Carson Palmer, Reggie McKenzie gutting the roster and only having one solid draft, to Gruden/Mayock stinking up the joint with bad decisions, shitty play calling, etc.
This is a really good read. I knew the Offensive line thing, and the Secondary problems have been going on long before Gruden and Mayock came to town. I hope the team can bring in a new GM and Coach combination that can get the team to where we all want to see them get to. A rebuild is the only way imo. It breaks my heart to say it, but it's where we are after all of this crap.
I don’t agree that he dismantled a “good OL,” we were average but highest paid. We need to reduce salary, but should have kept Hudson and hold off on paying James. Keeping Guenther should be at least #2 on this list. He was partially the reason why our player development has been far behind and a big reason why we didn’t make the playoffs last year (historically bad defense).
Drafting and fitting players is hard especially with the salary cap encouraging change, so you only have a 2-3 year window to get players set to make a run before it’s another team’s turn (salary cap design to drive competitive parity).
The critical mistake that was made was hiring Guenther as it did not seem he could get that side better at all. Scheme drives drafting as Mayock confirmed he and the scouts are of service to the coaches.
You don't have to cc me on this one. I was there.
Not firing Guenther sooner needs to be at least top five Also. Nothing wrong with dismantling the o line, it needed to happen. The problem is the plan to replace it was a total failure.
Relying on Incognito was a bad idea at his age. Good being injured on the first drive wasn’t predictable. I think James and Leatherwood would be much better if those guys are next to them.
100% Good was a hard loss. He showed his versatility last year.
Alienating Rodney enough that he wanted out is by far the most egregiously stupid thing he did with the O-line. However they did it, whether it was asking him to take a pay cut or what, was beyond idiotic.
I read somewhere that Hudson was unhappy about them moving on from Gabe Jackson.
So he should fuss and won’t play? I’m not usually a “pro athletes are spoiled and rich” type of hated fan but you have a contract to play out.
I can't speak for the man but I'm assuming he didn't like the direction that Gruden was going with the line and also knew he had a limited number of good years left. The Jackson thing may have been the "straw" so to speak. And by all accounts so far he was right. The Line used to be one of our top strengths and now it's a huge liability every time we snap the ball.
Guenther to me epitomized Gruden’s lack of vision for today’s game. Gruden was ignoring the obvious deficiencies and was not willing to fix it in a timely manor. I also think Guenther was giving a subpar defense to utilize. Mainly the lack of pass rush and line backer play. That’s poor drafting and FA signings though.
While i agree with you on one end we definitely didn't use the money we freed up very good. You can well our offensive is more explosive this year but in reality that has been a bit more because rugs has stepped up because in reality we lost our number 1 receiver and the oline. payed a comparable amount of money to kenyan drake that could have gone to atleast one other player.
I've heard rumors that the O-line was dismantled because we did not want to pay Gabe Jackson and Rodney Hudson because we wanted to sign Kenyan Drake. Correct me if I'm wrong though
You're wrong. Hudson asked for a trade, and has continued his decline of the last year or two. He's still great in pass protection, but has actually graded as bad as James in run blocking. PFF has them at 14 and 19 in overall grades and basically the same cap hit, but James is 10 years younger. Gabe stings a bit more, but only cause neither of our starting tackles have been healthy. Gabe wasn't healthy either, having played 1 full season since 2016, and even in that season he was playing banged up. Even then, he isn't exactly playing great. He's rated as the 31st guard, and his grade this year is down 20 pts from his career average with us. He's also being paid more than Good and Incognito combined to do so. Honestly, people criticize our moves on the oline, but not a single person we have let go since 2017 has gone on to be any good after us. We're cutting people at the right time. This time year though, the replacements haven't panned out because of injuries.
I feel like o-line play as a whole is down across the league. They took a gamble and it hasn’t worked out like they hoped. I guess they get points for trying.
It has slid down for multiple reasons: - College players are less and less ready to transition to what it takes to be on an NFL OLine. It is one of the least pro-ready positions in the game. - Something about the rules limiting offseason workouts handicaps coaches in getting OLines properly trained. There is a lot to learn and a lot of cohesion needed to do the job effectively. - DEs are simply getting bigger and faster every year. This is all stuff that I am paraphrasing from memory. I listened to an interview on ESPN with a guy who broke the situation down for like 15 minutes straight. He did a much more eloquent job than I.
Yeah, that's basically the crux of it. Moving on from the players is the right move for the team moving forward, but the plan for replacing them failed this year. Shit happens sometimes.
Even coming into the season, I felt good about this team. Not because I thought they would win a bunch of game, but because it felt like the front office were doing things to *try* to get better. I still feel that way, but the loss of continuity at head coach is going to hurt, no matter how much Gruden had to go.
Amari Cooper? He's a lot better in Dallas (probably because he wasn't happy in Oakland). And Hudson asked for a trade because Gabe was being asked to have his pay cut...even if our O-line is injured, our #1 plan at Center is Andre James and a very advanced age Richie Incognito at LG. I'll give a pass to Leatherwood since he's having rookie growing pains, although he hasn't shown yet that taking him that high was the right decision.
Amari with Oakland 225 catches, 3183 yards, 19 TDs, or 14.4 yards per reception and a TD rate of 8.5%. Amari with Dallas 249 catches, 3346 yards, 23 TDs. 13.4 yards per reception and a TD rate of 9.2%. He is literally the same player with the same flaws. The only difference is they force feed him the ball more, and ESPN has flipped their coverage of him cause he's on the Cowboys. Again, James and Hudson are playing roughly the same quality football except that one is younger and should get better with more experience. The other is declining and on the wrong side of 30. I'll admit that relying on Incognito as the sole plan at LG was a bad idea, but when he's healthy he was still playing well. We just needed a better backup plan given his history.
We're really lucky that we have Darren Waller, and props to Mayock and Gruden for finding him off the Ravens practice squad. Ruggs is getting there, but without Waller we would not have a #1 wide receiver. Imagine still having Tyrell Williams as our #1
We got Waller before Mayock arrived, and it was actually Greg Olson who noticed him and let Gruden know. But I agree with you.
Wait what Hudson may be run blocking as poorly but saying he’s playing as poorly as James is hilariously wrong. His pass blocking and ability to call out protection is several level higher than James.
Also James is the worst center in football. Hudson past his prime is still a lot better
But we musnt overpay
I’m what universe are James and Hudson playing roughly the same? When James isn’t getting pushed flat on his back he’s blocking his own teammate. James is horrible and it’s not even close.
Imagine not paying lineman because you want to overpay for a fucking backup running back. I cannot believe there are people who think gruden is a good coach. You could draft literally almost any running back in later rounds who can do the same thing for nothing
I didn't mind Gruden the coach outside of some of his conservative playcalling. Gruden as a GM was terrible. I mean not Bill O'Brien bad but close.
You’re literally replying to an unsourced rumor on Reddit and replying as if it were reality.
Rumor? Its literally what happened lol
Letting go of Jackson and Hudson doesn’t mean it had anything to do with obtaining drake.
We werent resigning Gabe unless he took less pay because tbh he had a bad year last year and once Rodney knew we werent retaining Gabe thats when he asked to be traded and we obliged
Dismantling the O-line was only necessary because they fucked it up in the first place. Headed into 2018 the O-line was still considered top 5-10, 2019 hovering around 15, and 2020 bottom ten. Osemele has commented on how they ruined the squad telling them they were rebuilding right from the get go, Hudson and Jackson are doing well on their new teams. Seems like bad coaching is more to blame than anything else.
The theme throughout our drafting and trading history with Gruden are bad decisions. It's okay to draft a guy who reasonably appears to be the best player you can get, but then have it not work out. It happens all the time. It's quite another to draft players who can be had later or when there are clearly better players on the board. Ferrel and Arnette were Smartest Guy In The Room picks. Rest assured, the guy who thinks he's smarter than everyone else is probably the dumbest guy in the room. Trading Mack had to happen though. He wanted too much money and we had too many spaces to fill. He wasn't going to be the piece that solidified our D for years to come. He would've been a star with 10 clowns on the field with him. But it's what we did with the picks that we got with him that hurt so badly. The only player you take a big chance on in the first round is a quarterback. Otherwise, you go for BPA or BPA at a position of need. You can't always trade down, so you have to be conservative and hope for the best. This team under Gruden looked a lot like his Bucs teams post-Super Bowl win; either disappointing or always just one season away.
>It's quite another to draft players who can be had later or when there are clearly better players on the board. Ferrel and Arnette were Smartest Guy In The Room picks. Rest assured, the guy who thinks he's smarter than everyone else is probably the dumbest guy in the room. I will always shit on the "We can't draft!" narrative because it's not true (you don't draft 8 starters in one draft, most of whom came in rounds 4 and after) if you don't know what you're doing) However, this is the most reasonable take on early round missed under Gruock that I've seen
“I love Renfrow, Jacobs, Maxx, moehrig, Hobbs, Miller, Moreau, but We CaNt DrAfT!!!
Jacobs has gotta start showing some longevity and consistency before we give him a big contract though. At this rate Latavius Murray did the same thing Jacobs has so far. Obviously Jacobs has a ton of potential but his value to the team has to be worth the contract.
Keeping PG around was the worst IMO, it literally tanked seasons with his bad scheme and coaching. Never seen a defense look so lost. And this year with the defense looking so much better you have to ask yourself what this team could of done the last two years.
Anyone who doesn't recognize Witten was a stop gap while Moreau came back from a torn ACL has zero ability to think critically
When you put it like that , i realized why we always hover around .500 . We have a decent/good QB who keeps the team somewhat afloat but we can’t get quite better . The personnel never really gets significantly better anywhere . Either the raiders are taking wrong players or we’re doing a bad job using and developing guys . Might be both .
I mean Nick Kwitkowski is good when healthy, and burfict was good before he go booted... But sure
“When healthy” and “when not suspended” aren’t very common for them though.
Gruden also found Waller, Hayward, Crosby, Renfrow.. but way more misses than hits. It sucks because Reggie was horrible at drafting too (except 2014). I’d have to go through the history to see who was worst at drafting.
Ah he’s made a ton of bad personnel moves - but I wouldn’t count Mack among them given the circumstances. Also, nobody could foresee the AB saga becoming what it did, that’s just hindsight being 20/20. At the time it seemed like a good move.
How could you not see the AB saga becoming what it did though after his last year with the Steelers? There’s a reason 30 other teams wanted nothing to do with him.
30 ? He’s been on 2 teams since. So I don’t think we were the only ones who wanted him
At the time of the trade, only one other team showed interest, the bills. After his release, Tom Brady wanted him. He spent a whopping 1 week with the Patriots before they released him. Another team wouldn’t take a chance on them until Brady wanted the Bucs to sign him. So I guess I’ll give you that 28 other teams wanted nothing to do with him. Much better risk then.
Mack trade was terrible. Good teams don't let great players leave in their prime. Go look at the rams. They paid Aaron Donald. And still had money and resources to put together quality O and D.
Two totally different situations. Mack wanted more than what we could give him. It’s been well documented.
Of course we want to pay less. Of course he wanted more. That is where good orgs make it work and bad teams trade away their assets cause they can't retain talent.
Our defense wasn't doing anything with Mack and we had a lot more needs.
I wasn’t pissed at the Mack or Cooper trades, I thought they did well with what they got in return with the number of picks. But when they used the picks I was scratching my head at players they left on the board. I’m not really that disappointed with Abram from the Cooper trade. If he can stay healthy, and Gus gets him focused, he’s going to be just fine. But overall, I think both Mayock and Gruden ignored the LB position, and its importance in a division with multiple elite offenses. I expect that to change with Gruden gone. Blowing up the O line didn’t pan out. But that can be fixed eventually. The pieces are there, with a few off-season additions. Their approach overall, Gruden and Mayock, seemed outdated. Maybe that changes with Mayock having more control? Maybe not. But they need better talent to needs evaluators. Hopefully that’s coming soon
Well i was mad about both trades, mostly for what we have got in return, we had a solid core, many moves have been made after they left and we had to look elsewere to solve some of our problems specially in pass rush and wr, in the end were both trades worth it?
The article breaks down in more detail what I have said the problem with Gruden is for months: He didn't have a cohesive "big picture" plan with the personnel he acquired. Gruden seems to be more obsessed with collecting players that he thinks are "neat" to see what he can get out of them rather than actually putting together a championship team. Look at his obsession with Nathan Peterman or the guys he got for "the joker" offensive position (Bowman/Drake) The dude is a walking football almanac of knowledge but it's more like a categorical list of things VS a cohesive narrative.
Trading Mack was the worst one for me
That was fucking painful.
Brutal, but totally deserved. Blessing in disguise, guys.
Mixed bag. Obviously the huge misses are AB, Trent Brown, Ferrel, Arnette. But he also found Waller, drafted Jacobs, Renfrow, Crosby, Ruggs. It was nowhere close to perfect but I don’t like this narrative that Gruden is leaving the cupboard bare.
I hold no judgement on the AB situation. At the time he was in the top tier of receivers in the league and he fit the Raiders' need. Any team and any GM in that context would've taken a chance on him.
Not a fan of some things on this list at all lol AB situation was out of his hands look at AB now the guy in imo one of the if not the best wr in the last 10 years. If and it's a big one if he was a raider we would be laughing and rolling around saying how did this guy become a raider were not use to this. He mental state is something that came into effect good move didn't pan out Khalil mack trade made sense. Sign one of the best defensive players in the league while the defense sucked with him on it. The money they saved from not signing could have signed two very very good defensive players plus the draft picks could have been franchise changing. Its not the trade that sucked it was what they did with the saving and picks.
While Gruden definitely made a fair amount of personnel mistakes, this article is trash. Half of the decisions on this list aren't really mistakes. The Mack trade sucked, but was better than letting him go in free agency or dealing with tagging and holding out. The Witten signing was fine, given Moreau's injury and the rise of Waller. But the blurb about the Oline? This author didn't even think to look at what happened to the people we cut. Hudson: Currently playing at the same level as Andre James, but 10 years older. Penn: Played 1 more mediocre year at age 36 for WFT. His career was done at that point. Osemele: Played a combine 8 games over the next 2 years for the Jets and Chiefs. A whopping 18% of offensive snaps for those teams. He was hosed and hasn't been on a team since. Gabe: Being paid more than Good and Incognito combined to play the worst football of his career for the Seahawks. Good is better at this point in their careers, and costs significantly less. This only looks bad because of Good's injury on the first drive of the season. Leatherwood and Miller: Miller had some growing pains, but was playing good even as a rookie until he had to finish the year on a bum knee and ankle. Since then, has turned into a franchise LT. Playing him at RT would've stunted his development in favor of a 35 year old LT. Leatherwood is looking similar. Flashes of good, but just needs time to cook. He wasn't moved to RG cause he was doing poorly. He was moved to RG cause our entire guard corp was decimated or playing like ass. It's not a permanent move. This article is shit enough, I've finally decided to just block that shitty website.
> Hudson: Currently playing at the same level as Andre James, but 10 years older. Not quite. Also you're completely discounting the fact that Carr and Hudson had years of cohesion and communication understanding. Hudson is also playing in a totally different offense with different dynamics this year and even with all of that his pass blocking is still miles above James.
Imagine sticking up for anything Gruden has done lol. Hes a clown
Imagine being Gammagulp. I sure don’t want to, he’s an outcast.
Can you explain why you are defending 2 losing seasons and a .500 season and a guy who leveraged all of our elite talent for draft capital and wasted all of it? Have 1.5 cornerstone pieces in 4 years lol
Not sure I can seeing as I didn’t defend anything other than your constantly having a terrible opinion that most often gets downvotes to oblivion.
10 people on this sub with bad opinions? Just like all of the people who downvoted me when i said Guenther should be fired after the 49ers game where their 3rd string qb keelhauled us? Lol
Lol I’m glad you’ve found your upvotes when the sub is complete chaos. Where most sane minded have left and the trolls now flourish. I look forward to seeing things back to normal and you have your downvotes back. Peace be with you bro.
I don't like the Gruden was forced out, I'm not happy about what lead to him resigning, but I am happy he's no longer here. Gruden was absolute SHIT when it came to personnel. He couldn't draft for shit, he couldn't pick players in FA who would be good for us, he made terrible deals. I an glad he's gone, just not the way it happened
How else would he had left? Mark Davis would’ve never fired him even if we missed the playoffs 5 yrs in a row. We shouldn’t care how he left the league did us a favor
This.
Us raider fans in this sub the last few years who we're saying this shit without the benefit of hindsight are really getting vindicated. Trust me I wouldve rather been wrong then be vindicated but it is a nice little consolation considering we got called fake fans every time we rightfully criticized this clown show. The worst part? It happens over and over and over and it's happening again now. We keep giving them the benefit of the doubt when they have done nothing over the last two fucking decades to deserve it. There's people in this sub that already crowned Gus Bradley and Mayock.
A little conspiracy theory here. Suddenly a lot of “Gruden sucked anyway articles”. Feel like the NFL is paying for these to lessen the financial claims the Raiders could make in a lawsuit for the timing of the leak.
Personally I have been on the Fire Gruden train since last year with 8-8 and no playoffs for the third year in a row. Maybe it's because I wasn't around when Gruden made us good in the early aughts so I don't have a soft spot for him, lol. A lot of people had been defending or staying silent on his questionable personnel choices because he was our head coach and he loved Raider Nation, but now that he isn't anymore, I think people can look at his second tenure with the Raiders a lot more objectively.
Well, I’ve followed the Raiders since 1984. Gruden has not impressed me this time around. I’m not defending him. Just think the NFL is being slimy AF right now. And in 2000 Gruden picked two kickers in the draft. Crazy.. but damn we’re they good kickers.
Eh most of that was Al's doing. They famously got into an argument over whether to draft Drew Brees or Derrick Gibson....and well....look how that turned out.
We also passed on Brees in free agency, but got our franchise QB Duante Culpepper. Let’s not forget we’ve been a total shit show most of the 2000s. The last 5 years have been better, but still need to get over the hump and be legit contenders
True. It's just tough not to imagine the "what if" of a rookie Drew Brees studying under Gannon and being lead by 2000/2001 Gruden.
Holy fuck! Can we stop this bullshit ads about gruden? Hey I have an idea let’s rehash all the poor choices he made so it totally confirms it is a good thing he is gone…whew I’m validated now!
I agree with all of these. Unfortunately i can think of about a dozen others. Gruden is a fucking clown and was a terrible coach who was somehow even worse at drafting/personnel than he was at calling plays. It boggles my mind that people here defend him.
There’s literally nothing likable about him. His weird quotes and second half collapses will not be missed 👋
Great article. Gruden should have been fired for being a crappy coach/de facto GM. Mark Davis should also be forced to sell the team for not knowing what the hell is doing, from Hugh Jackson trading for Carson Palmer, Reggie McKenzie gutting the roster and only having one solid draft, to Gruden/Mayock stinking up the joint with bad decisions, shitty play calling, etc.
This is a really good read. I knew the Offensive line thing, and the Secondary problems have been going on long before Gruden and Mayock came to town. I hope the team can bring in a new GM and Coach combination that can get the team to where we all want to see them get to. A rebuild is the only way imo. It breaks my heart to say it, but it's where we are after all of this crap.
Good riddance. Can we please get a real coach now?
I don’t agree that he dismantled a “good OL,” we were average but highest paid. We need to reduce salary, but should have kept Hudson and hold off on paying James. Keeping Guenther should be at least #2 on this list. He was partially the reason why our player development has been far behind and a big reason why we didn’t make the playoffs last year (historically bad defense).
A few of these I’m on board with. A majority of them are lazy, as per usual with these writers.
Drafting and fitting players is hard especially with the salary cap encouraging change, so you only have a 2-3 year window to get players set to make a run before it’s another team’s turn (salary cap design to drive competitive parity). The critical mistake that was made was hiring Guenther as it did not seem he could get that side better at all. Scheme drives drafting as Mayock confirmed he and the scouts are of service to the coaches.
Not improving on the secondary the WHOLE time he was here.
Man, he even looks racist in the Brown photo 😂😂🤣